Gary O'Donoghue (1:46)

Newscast from the BBC.

Donald Trump (1:48)

Thank you, Gary. It's a great honor. I really like the Prime Minister a lot, even though he's a liberal. They had a stretcher ready to go. I said, no, thank. So what the hell was that all about? I'm not done with him, but I'm disappointed in him. I like to think about it as little as possible. I trust almost nobody, to be honest with you.

Adam Fleming (2:08)

It's Adam in the newscast studio and we're chatting to the now famous. Well, he was already quite famous, but he's even more famous now. Gary o'. Donoghue. Gary, thank you very much for joining us.

Gary O'Donoghue (2:16)

Oh, pleasure, pleasure, always.

Adam Fleming (2:18)

I mean, I'm honored because that's what Donald Trump said about chatting to you. So we're in the same boat. Explain to us how this interview came about in the first place.

Gary O'Donoghue (2:27)

Well, in many ways, it's a sort of standard thing that you and I have done all our sort of journalistic lives. You decide, you think you want something to happen. And I decided that because I'd been that attempt on Donald Trump's life a year ago this past Sunday, that I would see if I could get an interview with him about the anniversary of that. And I worked a couple of channels that I knew. I mean, a couple of people I knew and talked to a few people, waited, waited, texted back and forth with a few people. And it wasn't a no. It was never a no. It was always seemed to be a question of, you know, when it could be made to be possible to happen. I was sat ready for it to happen on Sunday night. I was told I was going to get a call from Air Force One momentarily, and it didn't come. And I had an apology saying, sorry, something came up, because if you're the President of the United States, States stuff comes up.

Adam Fleming (3:21)

Right.

Gary O'Donoghue (3:22)

So not surprising. And by Monday night, I thought it had gone away, and. But I was wrong. And the work and the effort paid off.

Adam Fleming (3:31)

And by way of the context, I mean, a year ago, you were there, famously on the ground taking cover after the shots had been fired. But actually, that was a moment that the MAGA supporters came to view the BBC and the international media in a slightly different light.

Gary O'Donoghue (3:47)

Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to measure that sort of thing, but I hope so. I certainly, in the months after that, in the run up to the election in November, when I would go to rallies, people would come over and say, you're the guy who, you know, reported that night from Butler. You're the guy who found the eyewitnesses that had seen the shooter, the guy found the witnesses that had tried to warn the Secret Service about the threat to the President's life. I think I certainly hope that made some difference because, you know, part of our job is to go out there and talk to everyone. And, you know, sometimes there are audiences and voters who are hard to reach. And sometimes, you know, news organizations like the BBC, like all news organizations, you know, don't try hard enough to find those voters that you need to reach. And I felt that that had changed the weather a little bit when talking to those MAGA supporters. We were still, let's be clear, mainstream media, which in this country is an insult, but just not quite as mainstream media as some of the others.

Adam Fleming (4:50)

And this is going to sound like I'm downplaying your interview, and I Absolutely do not intend it in that way at all because it's a massive, massive global scoop. But Donald Trump phoning up journalists, that's a part of his shtick, isn't it?

Gary O'Donoghue (5:02)

It absolutely is. It absolutely is a part of the way he operates. He has always believed and always said that he's, you know, the best communicator in his administration. He is utterly comfortable in that environment. He can riff in a press conference for ages, they can go on for ages, and he can call people up out of the blue. I mean, this was more formal than that, but he calls people up out of the blue. He did that a whole bunch to a whole bunch of journalists after Elon Musk's departure to get his line out there pretty early in the morning on that occasion, I remember. So, yeah, this is part of his thing and is part of him being a sort of non politician politician, as he still sees himself as.

Adam Fleming (5:51)

And Gary, we'll play nearly the whole interview in a second, but just before we do, I mean, I hope this isn't a lame question, but how do you, how did you approach interviewing Donald Trump? Because to some people, he's a very slippery character. There's a million and one things you could ask him. He sometimes doesn't stick to his point. What was your kind of mindset for how you were gonna talk to him?

Gary O'Donoghue (6:11)

Well, I thought about some of the areas that I wanted to talk. I had written some notes, but those notes, God knows where they were when I was scrabbling to get up and answer the phone, but they were in my head. And I knew that just trying to sit back a bit and to place careful and let's say, let's be careful, respectful questions that I actually was there to try and elicit some things, elicit some thinking, to see the process of thinking in his head. And so I decided to keep things very short. I kept my questions very short. I kept, I waited. The thing you have to do with Donald Trump is there are moments where he stops and you can tell he's listening and you wait for that moment to intersperse. A very quick question. And he's responsive enough and quick enough on his feet to take that on and take that where the conversation goes. I thought I would get maybe five minutes with him. We ended up with almost 20. Some of it was off the record, which we haven't used and we haven't broadcast, but I would say three quarters of it was on the record. And it's there for everyone to take a look at.

Adam Fleming (7:27)

And we've taken out the bits where he either mishears the question and goes off on a different tangent or talks about his hotels. So we thought we wouldn't bother newscasters with the bit where he does the marketing for his Trump properties in the uk, Ireland and elsewhere. Gary. And before we hear it, two other questions. How did you record it? Because that would be my worst nightmare. Like my phone ringing in my flat be like, oh, I've got no kit.

Gary O'Donoghue (7:51)

Well, my problem is I always have too much kit. I'm a bit of a sort of digital nerd when it comes to audio recorders, which sort of paralyzes me in the end because I never know which one I want to use. Actually, on this occasion, I can tell you that I used a little tiny DJI mic that is often used by those tiktokers and vloggers. You know, you see them holding them up like this, these little ones, and that records straight onto the device and it's tiny. And I just put it next to the phone on the table in front of me. So it picked up me and the phone call. And it was a purely ambient recording, nothing fancy about it at all. And fortunately I pressed record.

Adam Fleming (8:34)

Yes, well done. And also so on trend, Gary. And last question before we finally hear this amazing conversation. What number comes up on your phone when the. When the White House calls? Do you know it's them?

Gary O'Donoghue (8:44)

I'm not telling you what number came up on my phone because that would be more than my job was.

Adam Fleming (8:50)

Don't worry, I'm not going to try and call it and get my own interview. Although it was maybe worth a chance anyway. Right, Gary, thanks for setting the scene so brilliantly. Let's hear the conversation. So just picture the scene. Gary's just woken up. A number which he's not revealing is flashed up on his phone. He's getting all his kit ready and he's plunging into this conversation with Donald Trump.

Donald Trump (9:09)

I'm here with the President.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (9:10)

Here you go, Mr. President.

Donald Trump (9:12)

Hi, Gary, how are you?

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (9:13)

I'm very well, sir. Thank you very much for sparing some time.

Donald Trump (9:17)

Good. You covered us very fairly. Appreciate it.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (9:20)

I wanted to ask you to start with. I know it's not a topic you like talking about very much, but I wanted to ask you, the moment you realized what had happened and then the moment you realized you survived, what was your immediate thought, sir?

Donald Trump (9:36)

Well, it happened very quickly and I'm not sure I had any conscious thought other than to say that I had to let the people know because I knew they must have thought that it was a disaster. And I could tell by that it was like dead silence and everything. We had 55,000 people and it was dead silence. And so, you know, I assumed that they expected the worst.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (10:01)

Yes.

Donald Trump (10:02)

And so I had to let him know I was okay, which is what I did. That's why I tried to get up as quick as possible. They had a stretcher ready to go. I said, no, thank you. I actually had a big argument with them, Right. They wanted me on a stretcher. And I said, nope, yeah, I'm not doing that.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (10:17)

Did it change you? What happened?

Donald Trump (10:21)

Well, I like to think about it as little as possible, to be honest. I don't like to think about did it change me, you know, because could have changed a lot of people and I just don't. Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't want to think about it. It's like, I get it, the power of positive thinking or the power of positive non thinking. But. So I don't. I don't like dwelling on it because if, if I did, it would be, you know, might be life changing. I. I don't want it to have to be that. It was a crazy moment. You know, I went on to win the presidency. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, to be honest, but I went on to win the presidency. We're having a great presidency.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (11:05)

One thing I was keen to ask you is these world leaders, they do treat you differently to the way they treated you first time around?

Donald Trump (11:14)

Well, I think they think it's maybe not all luck, you know, it's like when you do it twice, it's a big difference. I also think that, you know, over the years they've gotten to know me. This is not an easy crowd to break into, you understand. These are smart people heading up very, very successful, generally countries. You know, they're all Germany and France, Spain and, you know, big countries. And, you know, I've gotten to know them over pretty and I think they've come to respect my. Respect me and my decision making.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (11:53)

How do you feel, though, when they're kind of. Obviously, sometimes they're very obvious in their flattery. Sometimes over obvious in their flattery.

Donald Trump (12:02)

Yeah, well, I think they're just trying to be nice.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (12:04)

You've said you were four times close to a deal with Putin.

Donald Trump (12:09)

Yeah, I thought I had a deal four times.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (12:12)

Are you done with him? I mean, I know that sounds a.

Donald Trump (12:14)

Simplistic thing, but I'm disappointed in him, but I'm not done with him, but I'm disappointed in him. So we had a deal done four times, and then you go home and you see. Just attacked a nursing home or something in Kiev. I said, what the hell was that all about?

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (12:29)

Do you trust him?

Donald Trump (12:33)

I trust almost nobody, to be honest with you.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (12:38)

So how do you deal with someone you can't trust?

Donald Trump (12:41)

Well, it's not a question of that. It's like, I'm disappointed that this hasn't been done. Deal we made last week is amazing. The, you know, the 5%, nobody thought that was possible. And it amounts to over a trillion dollars a year on that deal.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (12:59)

You once said that NATO was obsolete.

Donald Trump (13:02)

I think NATO is now becoming the opposite of that. I do think it was passed and it was very unfair because the United States paid for almost 100% of it, but now they're paying their own bills and I think that's much better.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (13:17)

And what about the collective defence thing? Do you believe in that still?

Donald Trump (13:23)

I do, yeah. I think collective defence is fine.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (13:26)

Can I ask you about Britain? Because you're going to. You're having the state visit in September. I know you're looking forward to that.

Donald Trump (13:33)

I do, I do. I look forward to it.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (13:36)

What is Britain's role for you in the world?

Donald Trump (13:39)

Well, I think it's a great place. I have property there. You know, I own Turnberry.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (13:44)

I was there with you the day after the Brexit vote when you were on the course.

Donald Trump (13:47)

I think that's right.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (13:48)

Do you think Britain's made the most of Brexit, though, that it could.

Donald Trump (13:53)

No, I think. I think it's been on the sloppy side, but I think it's getting straightened out. I really like the Prime Minister a lot, even though he's a Liberal. I think he's, you know, he did a good trade deal with us, which a lot of company, a lot of countries haven't been able to do.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (14:12)

One of the things that previous presidents have done on state visits is to make a speech to Parliament. Parliament isn't sitting in September. Would you like them to bring Parliament back? They can recall Parliament so you could make a speech to Parliament.

Donald Trump (14:26)

No, I think. Let them go and have a good time. I don't want that.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (14:31)

So you're going to meet the Prime Minister when you go in in July, but in September. What do you want to achieve with the state visit?

Donald Trump (14:38)

I think just. I want to have a good time and respect King Charles because he's a great gentleman.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (14:44)

You know, he went to open the Canadian Parliament and a lot of people saw that. As a sort of an endorsement of Canada's independence. How did you see that, that act by him?

Donald Trump (14:56)

Well, I didn't view it as anything. Look, they're wrapped up with Canada, so what's he going to do? You know, he has no choice. But, you know, we're negotiating with Canada right now, and we'll see how that all works out. I think it's going to work out very well.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (15:14)

And in terms of Britain's sort of role in the world, it sits between the US and Europe. Sometimes it tries to act that mediation role. Do you think it achieves that? Do you think there is this special relationship that British politicians often claim there is with. With American men?

Donald Trump (15:32)

I do. I think, you know, one of the problems with NATO is I said, you know, we have to fight for them, but will they actually fight for us if we had a war? And I'm not sure I can say. But I will say this. I believe that the UK would fight with us. There's something about it. It's just been so many years, and I really think the relationship is just a really great one. I think that they would be with us. I'm not sure that a lot of the other countries would be, which is unfair because we pay far more than anybody else. There's this special relationship we have. Well, look, that's why I made a deal with them, and I haven't made it. I mean, I've made some other deals, but for the most part, in terms of your competitors and in terms of the European Union, I haven't made a deal. But now the UK is. Is very special and it's been there for a long time. Yeah, they would. They. They have been a really true ally.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (16:30)

So may I ask you what would be, looking back, what would be the key for your legacy, for you? What do you think would define your.

Donald Trump (16:38)

Legacy from your saving America? I think America is now a great country and it was a dead country one year ago, and that's been told to me by many leaders of the countries, you know.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (16:52)

Thank you very much for your time, Mr. President.

Donald Trump (16:54)

Thank you, Gary. It's a great honor.

Gary O'Donoghue (16:56)

Right, Gary.

Adam Fleming (16:57)

Loads of things we could pick up on. I think, actually the very, very sort of from a UK perspective, I mean, Keir Starmer will be listening to that interview and punching the air.

Gary O'Donoghue (17:06)

I think that's right. You know, I mean, I mean, the sort of little quip about him, despite him being a liberal, I think he can probably swallow that one. Also, this sort of potential row that some people have tried to stir up about Parliament, you know, being recalled and whether it should, you know, he's just not bothered about it, is he? So that's another little tick box that they don't need to worry about. Brexit, of course, didn't happen under Keir Starmer, so the sloppiness there can be brushed off. And I think the interesting thing I was really interested to ask him about, the sort of flattery thing that in some ways, Keir Starmer started when he came to Washington earlier in the year and other leaders have picked up on, you know, the bending of the knee and in some cases, you know, I'm not suggesting this in the case of the Prime Minister, but the bending of the knee is so far that they're practically on the floor. I wonder whether, you know, Donald Trump, whether he likes it or whether he's on it, and he was just kind of just trying to be nice. In other words, he knows it. He knows it for what it is and he's prepared to just look, see through it. So I think, you know, that has, that is something that I was curious about. And the trade deal, or the trade deal he claims that has taken place with the uk, of course, lots of disputes about how broad and how in place. All that is, is something I think is down to the chemistry and indeed down to the President's, I mean, absolutely, apparent affection, I think, for the uk, you could put it like that. I mean, sure, we got the adverts for all the properties and the golf courses, and we know some of his ancestors are from Scotland, obviously, but there is an affection there and, you know, and that translates into, in some ways, I think, into the political.

Adam Fleming (19:03)

Just on a little sidebar for the Brexit thing, I mean, we don't know if he thinks it was Theresa May or Boris Johnson who did Brexit in a sloppy way.

Gary O'Donoghue (19:11)

One of my regrets that I didn't.

Adam Fleming (19:13)

No, don't worry.

Gary O'Donoghue (19:15)

When you do these interviews, you always have regrets, don't you? And that is one of the ones I thought, darn it, you know, should have asked what you meant by that.

Adam Fleming (19:23)

I mean, that's only like a little footnote. It's only a minor piece of feedback from my point of view, Gary, I think. But what's interesting is that he clearly thinks that Keir Starmer, by smoothing some of the edges of Boris Johnson's Brexit deal and getting the UK a bit closer to the eu, he's obviously in favor of that. So while Donald Trump is a Brexiteer, he's not like maximize sovereignty, like minimise the relationship between the UK and the eu kind of Brexiteer. He's a kind of soft Brexiteer, but that's quite minor in the grand scheme of what we're talking about today. Also, it was interesting. Yeah. You're talking about. You put those things about, does he want to address the Houses of Parliament? Is he annoyed about the King going to the Canadian Parliament? And he actually chose not to pick those fights, which shows you that he only picks the fights he wants to. He doesn't just automatically walk into every fight that's offered to him.

Gary O'Donoghue (20:14)

That's right. I mean, I don't know, you know, on the question of Parliament, whether he has a different view. That's the view I have. I had heard that, not him specifically, but I had heard some disquiet potentially, you know, among some, the diplomatic community and perhaps in the administration as well, about the King's opening of the Canadian Parliament. Nothing had really ever been made public. So I wanted to slightly explore that because, as you know, Donald Trump has made this a big thing about, you know, Canada being the 51st state and all this kind of stuff that the Canadians get very upset about, as you can imagine. I just wanted to see whether it was the case. But he didn't seem to. Didn't seem to go for that in any way, and seemed to seem to be sort of resigned to the idea, well, what else could King Charles do?

Adam Fleming (21:06)

Yeah, and also, there's a clear personal affection there. So he. And also because he's quite. For somebody who is sometimes accused of being a bull in a china shop at times, he can be very, very polite and very kind of formal and very, I mean, in fact, quite, quite solicitous himself.

Gary O'Donoghue (21:20)

Yeah, he is. And he's someone who thrives on personal contacts, you know, it's why he. He finds it, I think, perplexing. And this is something I think I detected in his words during that interview, you know, perplexing that simply getting people together when there's a problem with him there. He finds it a bit baffling, I think, that that doesn't sort it out. And so the chemistry is incredibly important from his point of view. I think the chemistry was the start of the real problem, if you remember, with Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the beginning of the year. I mean, you know, he took exception to President Zelenskyy, what he was wearing right from the get go, if you remember. And I think that is. That is something that is is absolutely central to his modus operation. Now, he's not the only politician who does that. Some of the greatest politicians of the era have been in, you know, extraordinary people. You know, they are people that relate to people incredibly well. If you think of Clinton, you know, in a room, the way Clinton used to work a room, it was, it was extraordinary to see him working a room. And, you know, people will say Tony Blair was, was the same in some ways, and Donald Trump is very different to those characters. But it is that sort of personal chemistry that he thrives off. And for him, if you get elected twice as well president, you think you're doing something right.

Adam Fleming (22:46)

And somewhere where the chemistry is definitely on the decline is his relationship with Vladimir Putin. And so we'd got, we got hints of this in the Oval Office earlier on Monday, where Trump had been sitting with Mark Ruta, the NATO Secretary General. And he started to sound really quite critical of Russia and certainly much more critical than he has done in the past. And with you, he was even more critical of Putin.

Gary O'Donoghue (23:07)

Yeah, I mean, he's been, he said some pretty straightforward and colorful things about Putin in recent weeks, more so than I got out of him. And he's been very irritated, I think, you know, he talks about lots of nice words and then in the evening, Vladimir Putin goes and bombs people and bombs nursing homes, I think he puts it. So that has been an exchange. Now, it is also worth saying that Donald Trump can change his mind pretty quickly, can change his mind in a way that you feel a bit bewildered by sometimes of the speed of it and the alacrity in which he can do a 180. But this has been a sort of process over time. He said, didn't he, he thought he'd had a deal four times with Putin and none of them had come home. And yet there's still this 50 day sort of window offering Putin another chance before the secondary sanctions kick in. So he still thinks there's an opportunity for a deal. And that's why when I said to him in that sort of, I mean, it's an American, it's an American question, isn't it? Are you done with particularly American kind of phrase that you know, you know exactly what it means if you live in America. And he said, no, I'm not done, I'm not done, I'm just disappointed, which means the door is still ajar.

Adam Fleming (24:35)

And also just that moment, I mean, it's so theatrical when you say, do you, do you trust him? And there's that massive pause that you could drive one of those bigger, massive American trucks through. And he says that he doesn't really trust anyone, which actually sounded, when you hear it in this context, sounds a little bit tragic, actually.

Gary O'Donoghue (24:53)

Well, do you know, I mean, the pause was one thing. I mean, I sort of waited and, you know, the temptation. The temptation can be to sort of leap in. But I, you know, I could hear he was still there, so I just waited. And then when he said, you know, in a really sort of wistful, sort of slightly distant tone about trusting almost nobody, a sort of shiver went up my spine, actually, because I thought at that moment, that is an incredible, incredibly lonely place to be in this world if you trust almost no one.

Adam Fleming (25:27)

Although maybe explains why he's got a somewhat sort of nihilistic view of the world and why it's like his might is right. Dog eat dog, actually don't really look after anyone.

Gary O'Donoghue (25:38)

Transactional. Indeed.

Adam Fleming (25:39)

And also going back to the point about. About what he said about Putin, it's like, I mean, you don't need to be an expert or have been to Ukraine recently to know that for years the Russians have been attacking civilian targets. Like, that's not new news to anyone.

Gary O'Donoghue (25:53)

No, I mean, yeah, that's the other thing that, you know, people will say, and I think it's a fair criticism. We've been telling you this all along about Putin. That's what Vladimir Zelensky will say. The Europeans will say, we've been telling you all along that this is what Putin is like. And finally you've come round to the idea. And that, I think, is a fair criticism. He would answer, look, I'm just focused on stopping the bloodshed, you know, and he said, and that there was no progress towards that in the years I was out of power. And, you know, he always says, the war is Biden's war. It started under Joe Biden, not my war. And he will come back to this point that he will do or try and do what's necessary to end the bloodshed. It's the thing he's focused on. I mean, he quotes a lot of numbers that are disputed about people who are dying. But unquestionably, there is a huge amount of misery on both sides and on the civilian, particularly the civilian casualties in Ukraine as well. And I think that would be his justification for just keeping that line of communication open, and at least not up until now, at any rate, not completely sort of closing down the possibility for some sort of communication with the Russian leader.

Adam Fleming (27:14)

And, Gary, let's end our conversation where you started your conversation with President Trump about the shooting a year ago. He was actually really reticent to talk about it. I mean, that's kind of the opposite of the kind of fight them, fight them imagery that emerged of him at the time.

Gary O'Donoghue (27:29)

Yeah, it's interesting. I thought that he, he really didn't want to go there. And, you know, he said that he got up at the time because he needed to show the crowd something. And, you know, that that's pretty plausible to me. And that's why he refused the stretcher and everything and refused to be carried off. But he didn't. He seemed very reluctant to want to go there. And, you know, and it was difficult to exactly discern the meaning of his words, but I got the, the distinct impression that, you know, if he started to think about it, he might not be able to stop thinking about it and stop thinking about the possibility. So the positive thing to do, as he put it, the power of positive thinking, is to not think about it at all. That's the stronger thing to do. And so while he knew that the anniversary was going to bring this all around and there were going to be questions that he couldn't avoid, I think, you know, if you asked him today or tomorrow, he'll be pretty glad that anniversary is past.

Interviewer with Donald Trump (Gary O'Donoghue) (28:26)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (28:27)

And he's given us a great new Trumpism, which is the power of positive non thinking, which is a new one in all of us. Gary, thanks very much for your time today and congrats on such a good interview.

Gary O'Donoghue (28:36)

Thanks, Adam. Nice to see you.

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History's Toughest Heroes Narrator (29:02)

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Ray Winstone (29:09)

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Adam Fleming (29:20)

So I've got two thoughts about that, having listened to it about five times today. Number one, it's Donald Trump. So actually, what of that is permanent and on the record forever? I suppose the interview's on the record forever, but what opinions of his and views that we've gleaned from it stay the same because he is quite inconsistent. And number two, thinking back to another interview of an American president by a British broadcaster, and it was Andrew Marr, when he worked here at the BBC, interviewing Obama in Washington ahead of Obama's state visit to the uk I can't remember exactly what year it was, but I remember watching it on primetime on BBC1 and it seemed very formal, very grand. And there's actually a bit at the start of the interview where. Where Andrew Mars is chatting to Obama in a quite kind of friendly, relaxed way. And Obama says, you know, the clock is ticking. Is this how you want to use your time? And I remember thinking, oh, Obama's potentially quite grand and quite spiky. And you just think the contrast between that interview with an American president and the one we've just heard, you can see actually why lots of Americans find Donald Trump really appealing and why they would potentially re elect him to the White House for the second time. And then my third point actually is when, as Gary alluded to there, when you do an interview, you've got a choice. You can do an interview, like as an interviewer, where you are kind of putting lots of evidence to people and holding the person to account, which is one kind of interview, or you can be a bit more of a reporter and try and elicit stuff and get the most you can out of the interviewee. And it's very clear in this case that Gary went for the second model of interview rather than the first. And if you would rather hear the first type of interview, then actually that does happen quite often with Donald Trump. So thank you very much for listening to Gary's interview and Gary's conversation with me about the interview on this episode of Newscast. We will be back with another one very soon. Bye bye.

Gary O'Donoghue (31:19)

Newscast. Newscast from the BBC. Well, thank you for making it to the end of another Newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

Ray Winstone (31:48)

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

History's Toughest Heroes Narrator (32:03)

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.

Ray Winstone (32:11)

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