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- [00:00]
BBC Announcer
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- [00:38]
Donald Trump
Late last night and early today, at my direction, the United States Armed forces conducted an extraordinary military operation in the capital of Venezuela.
- [00:55]
Chris Mason
Paddy, that was not in my diary for 3rd January 2026. Was it in yours?
- [01:00]
Paddy O'Connell
No. I woke up to the news like the whole world this morning, it's about six o' clock our time that the reports started coming through that Donald Trump.
- [01:06]
Chris Mason
Had ordered strikes on the Venezuelan capital. Not just ordering strikes on the Venezuelan capital. We know he'd been cranking up the pressure on that country for some time. But also it emerged then America had captured its leader, Nicolas Maduro and his wife.
- [01:20]
Paddy O'Connell
And then, as the day wore on, a news conference in which Donald Trump said two things, one more we can discuss. We are going to run Venezuela and we are going to pump its oil. Welcome to the first Saturday newscast of 2026.
- [01:33]
Chris Mason
Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
- [01:36]
Keir Starmer
Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.
- [01:39]
Liz Sly
I was the tattletale in the classroom.
- [01:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I have an apology, please?
- [01:41]
Donald Trump
I trust almost nobody that daddy has.
- [01:44]
Keir Starmer
To sometimes use strong language.
- [01:46]
Liz Sly
Next time in Moscow.
- [01:47]
Chris Mason
I feel delulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downing Street.
- [01:51]
Guest Commentator
Let's go have a tour.
- [01:52]
Paddy O'Connell
Blimey.
- [01:54]
Chris Mason
It's Laura in the studio.
- [01:55]
Paddy O'Connell
It's Paddy in the studio and I'm.
- [01:56]
Chris Mason
Delighted to say with us today is.
- [01:58]
Liz Sly
Lee's in the studio. And I woke up this morning already to talk about President Trump's threats to intervene militarily in Iran, only to find out that he'd already intervened militarily in Venezuela.
- [02:13]
Chris Mason
So what do we know then, Liz, in terms, it's been a very fast moving story. So if people are listening to this and it's coming into their ears late on Saturday or they can't sleep in the middle of the night and they haven't really been watching the news. So what can we tell people as we record at 5 UK time?
- [02:26]
Liz Sly
For months there has been a military buildup, US military buildup in the Caribbean and parts of the Pacific around off the coast of Venezuela with attacks on what are said to be the vessels used by Venezuelan Narco traffickers, even seizing of some oil vessels. Then a few days ago, there was an attack that President Trump admitted, attack on Venezuelan land, a docking facility, again, said to be connected to alleged drug traffickers. So the pressure was building. But this came completely out of the blue. This morning in the dead of night, there were suddenly loud explosions. And Caracas is in a valley. So they were thunderous explosions. And we started hearing on the BBC, Venezuelans telling us we were woken up by loud booms. And then slowly it became clear that there had been US Military strikes on major military bases in Venezuela. And then as the day went on, as you started hearing more details, including, as you say, this press conference, which as we record some of those attacks, those strikes seem to have been diversionary in that there had been a well rehearsed operation, a sting operation to extract Nicolas Maduro from his fortress along with his wife, a special team, Delta Force. And they had rehearsed this for months, we understand, for President Trump, they had actually done a mock up of where he was, how to go in and out. We understand from those reports he's about to land, as we record, in New York, where he will soon be put on trial. And so what do we have now at a moment where President Trump is absolutely jaw dropping, is saying that now the United States is going to run Venezuela. But in Caracas, the people who are the closest, the most powerful people next to Nicolas Maduro are still there. The defense minister, the vice president, the interior minister, they're still being defiant. Where are they going to go? And the Venezuelan opposition is also saying they should be actually moving into this power vacuum. So the big question of what next is a moment fraught with risk.
- [04:38]
Paddy O'Connell
We know that the helicopters flew in at 100ft above the ground. We heard that from the news briefing. It could have happened four days ago, but the weather was bad. They know they've been sending this strike force off the coast of Venezuela for weeks. It's been sitting there. President Trump said that should have warned the Venezuelan president we were coming. Then he's been pictured in cuffs and blindfold. And this is what the US President said would happen in Venezuela. This is from the news conference.
- [05:03]
Donald Trump
We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition. So we don't want to be involved with having somebody else get in. And we have the same situation that we had for the last long period of years. So we are going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and Judicious transition. And it has to be judicious because that's what we're all about.
- [05:36]
Chris Mason
I mean, President Trump's critics would say he's not judicious about anything. And they would say that the reason he's not been judicious about this is that by international law, it's very clear. Unless there is an imminent threat or it's self defense, essentially, unless you're being attacked by a country, it's not legal for one state to go in and drop bombs on another country, let alone then go in and grab and snatch their leader, in this case Nicola Maduro. But at least just if people don't know much about South American politics and I think there are plenty, plenty of us out there. Maduro was democratically elected initially, but over time, tell us how his regime have done some pretty awful things. Who is he?
- [06:17]
Liz Sly
But let me just pick up on what you said though, that. But President Trump and his officials have been building the case for legal action. They say that they have, they're legally, it's within their legal rights to take the action. They have, they have framed this not as regime change, not as extracting a leader, but as taking on a threat to the national security of the United States. Saying that there is an armed conflict with these narco traffickers describing networks in Venezuela as terrorist organizations. So when they will be challenged, and they're already being challenged on the legality of this, they, they already have their, they've been making their case. Nicholas Maduro, they would say President President Trump'. The case of his supporters is that not only is, they say he a drug trafficker, but they're not the only ones. Colombia is a country where most of the cocaine is produced. Fentanyl is mostly produced in Mexico. A lot of the drugs go through Ecuador. But they are focusing on Nicolas Maduro, who was indicted many years ago in a court in the United States. But the other charge is that he stole the election of 2024. All of the international assessments were that he lost the election by very wide margin and that the person who won is President Edmundo Gonzalez. The Maria Cordina Machado, the Nobel Peace Laureate, one of the most prominent Venezuelan opposition leaders, was barred from taking part. She had to go into hiding. So it was Gonzalez who was supposed to become president. Instead, Nicolas Maduro insisted on staying in power, which is why President Trump has continued to say, we can do this the easy way or we can do it the hard way. You simply step down, recognize that you lost the election.
- [08:03]
Chris Mason
But it's interesting you say the framing of the American argument here is that the way that drugs come through Venezuela and end up on US Streets and harming US lives essentially is an attack on the country that gives them the legal threat to go after it because.
- [08:19]
Paddy O'Connell
Also they framed it as a law enforcement operation.
- [08:21]
Chris Mason
Exactly.
- [08:22]
Paddy O'Connell
So they said. They're indicted already. Maduro and M. Mr. And Mrs. Maduro. But just interestingly, just I should say.
- [08:28]
Liz Sly
That when, when President Trump spoke on Fox News, he, he accused Maduro being responsible for killing 300. Yes, there is a large number of Americans who die from drug related deaths in the United States. But the criticism is then why are you singling out Nicholas Medulla pardoned the former Honduran president who was in, who was sentenced to 45 years in prison.
- [08:50]
Paddy O'Connell
Please let me, let me ask exemplify this from our newscaster, Howard. Hello team. Happy New Year. Why Donald Trump is claiming that large amounts of drugs come into the USA from Venezuela when the dea, that's the Drug Enforcement Agency in the US Says the national drug thesis assessment says that Mexico is the source of the majority of drugs into the usa?
- [09:10]
Liz Sly
Yes. Well, this is it. When you challenge them, they say it is true that it is a net, it is, it is a transit point for the drugs. But President Trump doesn't have, he's not going after everybody. He's decided to go after Venezuela.
- [09:27]
Chris Mason
Dare I say oil.
- [09:28]
Liz Sly
Well, I was just happens to have the highest proven, highest, the greatest number of proven oil reserves.
- [09:34]
Paddy O'Connell
He has said it, he said we're going to pump it.
- [09:35]
Chris Mason
And he said this because over under Maduro, the amount that's being produced in Venezuela has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. But today in extraordinary way, he said we're going to send in American companies and we're going to make money and we're going to sell it loads of money.
- [09:47]
Paddy O'Connell
We're going to sell it to countries around the world. He was asked at the news conference about China and Russia and he then segued to say that we will sell this oil to other countries, implying he's going to sell Venezuelan oil to China.
- [10:00]
Liz Sly
One of the reasons why President Trump's supporters love him so much is that he's, to use the expression, he says the quiet part out loud. There have been decades of accusations against the United States that whenever it goes in it is to steal the resources of a country. President Trump takes it on head on and says, yeah, that's why we're going in. We want the oil. There is strangely there is an American company operating now in Venezuela. Even though Venezuela is sanctioned for oil and they've been attacked by US warplanes on oil tankers. Chevron is operating there under a special license. It was canceled. Then after lobbying of President Trump, they were given it back.
- [10:41]
Chris Mason
This was a long running.
- [10:44]
Liz Sly
It goes back to Hugo Chavez. This didn't start in President Trump's second term. We have to actually put it into context. Venezuela has been seen as a troublesome state for many years for many American presidents. That goes back to Hugo Chavez. Then of course, it followed by Nicholas Maduro, which then raises the question, what happens to what's called Chavismo? Because just because you've taken out Nicolas Maduro doesn't mean you've taken out everything about his policy, his left wing policies in Latin America.
- [11:18]
Chris Mason
And in a way, though, it feels to me, not being an expert in this, in the way that you are at all, but this is retro, isn't it? This is old fashioned American. Whether you want to call it gunboat, gunbon, whatever it happened, you go in whether regimes you don't like, there are deaths, decades where this happened in all sorts of smaller countries around the world. The US Would go in, institute some kind of disruption in the government, whatever you want to call it. People have different terminologies. But in a way it feels this is very retro.
- [11:47]
Paddy O'Connell
It happened with Noriega in Panama.
- [11:49]
Liz Sly
Yeah, that was the last time, 1989.
- [11:51]
Chris Mason
And President Reagan he got. And that was under Ronald Reagan. But these many of our newscasters don't have the blessings of as many years on this planet as we do. So just remind us what was, what was going on there with General Norway.
- [12:03]
Liz Sly
That was General Noriega. And that was after the buildup of. But there was a war going on between the United States and Panama. And then they went in and, and took him out again. Accused of being involved in narco trafficking, seen as a threat to the national security of the United States. But Laura, if I could pick up on the point you made is like, what is this? This seems retro. This seems like they used, they used to use the phrase decades ago when the CIA intervened in one country after the gunboat diplomacy. President Trump gave it a name in his press conference in Mar a Lago. He said they call it the D Roe Doctrine. It was even mentioned in the national Security strategy that was put out by the United States late last year that they are going to revive the 19th century doctrine of President James Monroe when he warned European powers not to meddle in the Western Hemisphere. And here we are. But, you know, you talk about going back decades, this is going back centuries. And I have to underline what a difference a year makes. At the beginning of 2025, when President Donald Trump started his second term, in his first foreign tour, he went to Saudi Arabia. I was there listening to him. He made a major foreign policy speech. And he said, those days of us intervening in countries which are not our own, which we don't understand, are over. The days of nation building are over. And then here we are. He has completely upended.
- [13:31]
Chris Mason
And can I ask you, Lise, with all your years of experience of covering stories right around the world and all sorts of tense and awkward, dangerous and difficult situations and all sorts of big political characters, given what we know about Donald Trump and how he behaves and how he can be so volatile and swing from one moment to another in a very unpredictable way, are you really surprised that this has happened?
- [14:01]
Liz Sly
What to say? I. I think that every day we wake up wondering what President Trump is going to say or do. Yes, he was a democratically elected president. Yes, he was elected by a major of the people of the United States. Yes, he has good relations with many world leaders, including Sir Keir Starmer. But he continues to shock and to stun with. When I was listening to that press conference and when we were all wondering, we're all asking that question, what next? The day after, and he says, we're going to run Venezuela. I had the images of 2003 in Iraq, and I remember arriving there after US and British forces had toppled Saddam Hussein. And how a day that the Iraqis who were celebrating when they realized that they would be run by Paul Bremer, by Americans, it turned to protest. And here we are seeing and again that President Trump is going to send in. Well, let's see how he does it. Going to send in America. It is absolutely jaw dropping.
- [15:05]
Paddy O'Connell
I think that that's the answer.
- [15:06]
Chris Mason
Yes, I think that's quite a very, very firm. Yes.
- [15:09]
Paddy O'Connell
I've just been speaking before.
- [15:10]
Liz Sly
I mean, there are good, Listen, there are good. You know, he did help to get a ceasefire in Gaza. Imperfect. He has done things at pract, as he likes to say, no other US President can do. He can pick up the phone and talk to President Putin in a way President Biden or others could not do it, but he is, he has really. This American first policy is making America a law unto itself. It is a very, very dangerous time.
- [15:35]
Paddy O'Connell
So I've just been speaking before we came into the room, the three of us, to John Bolton, who was his national security adviser.
- [15:40]
Liz Sly
Oh, even he is scared of President Trump.
- [15:42]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, he raises the same caution as you about how you're going to run Venezuela. What are the Venezuelans going to think about it? And what about the people who are the leaders of the opposition? One of them, a Nobel laureate in hiding. But also he said, you know what, don't make it a doctrine.
- [15:59]
Guest Commentator
Trump yesterday threatened Iran if they harmed the protesters who are increasing numbers out in the streets of Tehran, calling for the ayatollahs to be overthrown. I hope the ayatollahs pay attention to that. But what Trump has done in Venezuela, whether you like it or not, is not part of a doctrine. And it remains to be seen when I use the phrase run the country. That's what Trump just said. I'll be surprised if it happens. And a lot depends on what the next few weeks bring.
- [16:31]
Chris Mason
And it's interesting, when it comes to Ukraine, it does seem that there has been genuine progress in recent weeks on that journey towards peace. But that's a whole other thing. I just. It's worth that. Reductions.
- [16:41]
Paddy O'Connell
No, no, don't start these on that.
- [16:43]
Chris Mason
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, and that's what's so difficult.
- [16:46]
Paddy O'Connell
But you, you've been speaking to our prime minister.
- [16:48]
Liz Sly
Yes, let's go back to.
- [16:50]
Paddy O'Connell
Because world leaders, their flabber is well and truly ghasted about it.
- [16:53]
Chris Mason
It certainly is. And it's very, very difficult for them. And, you know, we know the extent to which Sir Keir Sarma has poured energy and effort and lavished attention on Donald Trump's White House in order to get things like a trade deal and to have fewer tariffs in other countries and to make sure that that relationship is strong. Not least, he hopes to get progress on Ukraine. But it was one of those moments where we were going to sit down with Keir Starmer today for a long interview, really long interview that will show in full tomorrow. But this news was breaking and you had that sense in number 10, you know, people sort of rushing around. Did you thinking, oh, something really big is happening. This call's going on. We're not quite sure what are we going to be able to say. Of course, we'll have to ask about Venezuela. My goodness. You had that sense that was, you know, there was something happening. But bear in mind Keir Starmer, big political chum or very unpredictable leader, who may have a tricky time with the legalities of this, although, as Liz has told us, they do believe they have a case alongside international lawyer Mr. Rules Keir Starmer. I want everything done by the book. How does he therefore answer the very legitimate question, do you or do you not think that what your big chum was doing is within the bounds of international norms? And lo and behold, Keir Starmer refused to condemn what Donald Trump had done. He didn't want to engage in whether or not it was under international law, although he did sort of say, well, of course, I'm someone who's always taken international law very seriously. But it struck me as just one other of those moments where Keir Starmer in some ways has kind of been snookered by his relationship with Donald Trump, which he wants to have and holds as very, very important, but cannot condone this action because of who he is and what his beliefs are. So he can't follow Ed Davy or Zach Polanski, who've both said today this has to be condemned, or even Nigel Farage, who said this might not be a bad thing, but I'm not really sure if it's legal. And this is how Keir Starmer handled it when I spoke to him earlier today.
- [18:56]
Keir Starmer
We need to establish full picture. I then need to speak to President Trump, I need to speak to our allies, But I don't shy away from this. I've been a lifelong advocate of international law and the importance of compliance with international law, but I want to ensure that I've got all the facts at my disposal, and we haven't got that at the moment, and we need to get that before we come to a decision about the consequences in relation to the actions that have been taken.
- [19:29]
Chris Mason
But we do know enough here that the US by its own admission, has struck a sovereign state. They have captured the leader of a sovereign state. Other political leaders in this country have already condemned it. Even Nigel Farage, who I know you have a very dim view of, has said it's probably against international law. So can you say that?
- [19:49]
Keir Starmer
Well, I want to, with the government, we take this very seriously. I want to establish all the facts. That's what we're doing, working within our own teams, working with our US Counterparts, and of course, I'll want to discuss this with allies. So I'm simply saying my preferred course of action is to make sure I've got all the facts at my disposal in relation to this, and it's fast moving. We clearly haven't got those facts at our disposal at the moment, and I want to be in that position.
- [20:15]
Chris Mason
But I know that you worry about global turmoil in all sorts of different ways by doing this kind of thing. And having been accused by lots of people of multiple abuses of power, isn't your friend Donald Trump contributing to that global turmoil?
- [20:34]
Keir Starmer
Well, two responses to that. Firstly, I do think that we're in a more volatile world than we have been for many, many years. And I'm really struck by the fact that, that what is happening internationally has much more of a direct impact on the UK than at any time that most of us can remember. And there are various reasons for that. There are conflicts around the world, there's climate issues going on. They're all impacting back on the uk. And that's why whenever I'm abroad on international work, I'm thinking about, what's the impact back on the uk.
- [21:10]
Chris Mason
Isn't your big political friend making it worse?
- [21:12]
Keir Starmer
Yeah. The relationship between the US and the UK is one of the closest relationships in the world. It is vitally important for our defence, for our security, for our intelligence. It is my responsibility to make sure that relationship works as the Prime Minister of this country working with the President of the United States, and not only have I stepped up to that responsibility, I have made it my business and I do get on with President Trump.
- [21:44]
Liz Sly
But didn't Priti Patel as well hedge it a little bit, not wanting to condemn, emphasizing the importance of international law?
- [21:51]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And Kemi Baden, of course, her boss. Now the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Dame Priti Patel. She essentially said, writing online, let's not rush to judgment here. No one will be shedding tears, I'm paraphrasing, but few will shed tears for President Maduro's leadership being over and his time in office in Venezuela being up. So you'd have a slightly different tone from the Conservatives, even though, of course, when they were in office, they also had the challenge of how do you manage Maduro? I mean, the UK doesn't have an enormously strong relationship with Venezuela. There are about 500 Brits, I believe, who are there. If newscasters, by chance you have any relations or friends or who knows you're even there and listening, you know, the advice is don't go, don't travel. The Foreign Office has got the usual kind of. Kind of safety advice, if you want to find it out.
- [22:36]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, he must have woken up as well. Yeah, we don't know.
- [22:38]
Chris Mason
God, I've got that woman coming in for an hour.
- [22:41]
Paddy O'Connell
But we know Donald Trump was asked if he told Congress and he said he didn't because they leak. Well, we can be pretty certain that he didn't pick up the phone. To Prime Minister Keir Starmer then I.
- [22:50]
Chris Mason
Would imagine he was very clear to say that the UK had nothing to.
- [22:52]
Paddy O'Connell
Do with this, probably didn't know about it.
- [22:56]
Chris Mason
I would suggest that that was the vibe. While he didn't want to spell that out but yeah it was, it was one of those moments he could tell he was so carefully seeing well I don't really have all the facts except we do. From. From almost the hour that the story broke we had two very clear facts. The you the U. S struck a sovereign country and the US Nabbed the leader of a sovereign country. There's no arguing about those two facts. There'll be lots and lots of arguments about all sorts of other things. But you can tell that Starmer's sort of pre prepared line was well, gosh, it's all very fast moving and I don't really want to say very much.
- [23:28]
Liz Sly
But I wonder how long it will take before they do make a decision. The French among all the Europeans have come out and they are crystal clear violation of international law. The EU foreign policy chief, she said and let's pick up on that point that no one is going to be sad to see the back of Maduro. They all had very deep, deep, deep criticisms of him, wanted him to leave because he lost the election. But she also emphasized the need to respect international law. Antonio Gutierrez UN Secretary General said this was a very dangerous time. So when will Sir Keer Samarse come out and say, say we too believe is it a violation of international law? Should we criticize the United States? What will be his view and how quick will he express he will say it.
- [24:15]
Chris Mason
I don't think he will say it, not least because his main rivals in Parliament, the Conservatives are still the main opposition. I don't think they'll say it so I don't think they'll be pushing to him. So if I could, I'm very happy to be wrong on this podcast as we will always see. But I would put a fiver that Ed Davies question and Prime Minister's question this Wednesday will be was it or was it not illegal to drop bombs on Venezuela? But I don't think that Cami Badenot would ask that question too. And therefore the pressure on Keir Starmer will be different and I don't think reform will push him in that direction. So I think you'll have the Greens and the Lib Dems pushing him and people from the left of his party as they already are saying we must condemn this. But I can't might be wrong by this time next weekend, right But I find it hard to see a situation where Keir Starmer would in term say my big chum Donald has broken.
- [25:05]
Paddy O'Connell
And there's another thing to mention here which is of interest for 2026. It's the 250th of the Republic.
- [25:10]
Liz Sly
Yes.
- [25:11]
Paddy O'Connell
And the King and the Prince of Wales are going over to take part in the celebrations, this new muscular gumbo diplomacy republic reaching back to the 19th century, as you've been saying. So the head of the British state is going to be at the center of some of this muscular Republican celebration republic celebrations. So I wonder if I could just turn the dial a bit to how Americans might be reacting to this because there was a lot of direct addressing in this news conference about troubles at home, about how the White House was clearing up crime ridden Washington, D.C. so he's linking his strong arm abroad side to his strong arm at home side. And what can we say about American voters? They don't necessarily like more involved involvement, but this is being pitched directly to them as a good deal. They're going to get the oil and you've got a president who does things. How do you think it could wash with American voters?
- [26:03]
Liz Sly
Well, some of the opinion polls before this happened said that only 25% of Americans would back this kind of military intervention in Venezuela. But yes, President Trump in that, sadly, it was a rambling news conference, as they often are with President Trump. And he suddenly veered from talking about what was happening in Venezuela and everyone was, you know, ears peeled to find out what was happening. And suddenly he was talking about Washington where he said crime has absolutely disappeared. He started talking about Louisiana, about Tennessee and going through in great detail all of the places where the US has now he's now sent in troops to make it a much safer, safer place. So, yes, he is saying that this is part of his broader, his broader approach to making the world a safer place for Americans.
- [26:48]
Paddy O'Connell
So it'll appeal to his base. I think the answer we don't know.
- [26:51]
Liz Sly
I mean, it's they he came in the MAGA make American grading a base wanted him. And President Trump says, I grew. I don't want to see these forever wars. MAGA doesn't want forever war. They don't want this kind of which is why Marjorie Taylor Greene, one of his great supporters, has now turned away from him. So let's see, let's see what Tucker Carlson and all those other big voices, what they start saying in the United.
- [27:15]
Chris Mason
States and also the very significant Latino communities in the U.S. right. Don't forget also Latino voters.
- [27:20]
Liz Sly
Oh, they will support, Yes, I believe.
- [27:23]
Chris Mason
Although there have been reports of celebrations in some parts of North America. And that big Latino vote in the US Is also in a very interesting demographic. Although as with any demographic, no one in every demographic all thinks the same way or votes the same way. And it can be very lazy to make those assumptions. But that's a dynamic here, too. You know, don't forget a huge part of what President Trump has been doing, which has been very divisive, popular with some, very unpopular with others, is massive immigration crackdowns. And he's connected Venezuela to that big immigration crackdown and sending agents in to grab people off the streets in American cities. So I think we can probably be sure whatever happens, it will be seen by some people as being very divisive. What that does for his popularity or lack thereof right now, I think it's really hard to predict this way that's going to turn.
- [28:12]
Liz Sly
But there's also the issue of precedent and what is going through the minds of President Putin in Russia, President Xi Jinping in China. People were asking on social media today, what if President Putin declares, as he already he has many times, that Vladimir Zielinski is a threat to the national security of Russia and he goes in and tries to pick him off, what will Sir Keir Starmer say then? What will others say then? What if others say, well, if the US can do it, if Donald Trump can say that this is in the interest of the United States, its national security, what's to stop us from doing it? And this is the shattering of what has been called the rules based international order. Never mind which rules benefit who, but a sense of that the world was ordered in a certain way, that we don't have these violations of international law and these aggressions against other countries, that which now seems to be really becoming more fragile by the day.
- [29:05]
Chris Mason
This is the dilemma for Starmer, because he's someone who we know is genuinely very worried about the level of turbulence in the world and people just strong men doing whatever they want. And yet his closest international or his biggest international ally is someone who from time to time is demonstrating that he is all also less than fond or respectful of the rules based order. And one of the questions that we asked in the interview today was, you've always said it's clearly something to be condemned, that Putin marched into a sovereign country and attacked it. What's the difference between that and President Trump dropping bombs on a sovereign country today?
- [29:42]
Paddy O'Connell
That does actually take us to the conclusion, because thanks to Liz, we have had the best possible summary of how we got to where we got to.
- [29:49]
Chris Mason
Yes.
- [29:49]
Paddy O'Connell
When we woke up not knowing. We're even going to get to the first step, let alone the second step.
- [29:53]
Chris Mason
By the way, we're going to make it to the office.
- [29:54]
Liz Sly
Yeah.
- [29:55]
Paddy O'Connell
So we are going to preview. At least we can say thanks to you for doing such sterling service. You're going to be with us broadcasting on Radio 4 and BBC1, no doubt, tomorrow morning.
- [30:02]
Chris Mason
So.
- [30:02]
Liz Sly
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Paddy O'Connell
And then you have got a full interview with the Prime Minister.
- [30:05]
Chris Mason
You have. So, I mean, newscasters are no strangers. Or if it's the first time you're listening, welcome along. Everybody knows that Keir Summer had a hellish time in 2025. Appalling poll rating, and by the end of the year, a few people in his party calling openly for him to go, people like the leader of Unite, the party's biggest funder, saying there'd probably have to be a change of leadership and he was in a big political hole. Can he survive 2026? That's the big question that overarches all of our politics. For now. We know that there's mega May coming down the tracks, as I'm annoyingly insisting on calling it, with elections in. Not in every corner of the uk, but in much of the uk. So we sat down with him this morning for more than 45 minutes, actually. We thought, look, this is a kind of a huge, critical moment. Would he be up for having a really long conversation, talking about all sorts of issues? And he had really interesting things to say. We talk about his survival, his future. He had very interesting things to say about Brexit and where the UK's relationship with the EU might go next, which I suspect might set some. Some pulses racing and some veins throbbing in foreheads, but we'll see. We talk a lot about Ukraine and his hopes for peace in Ukraine, and it's fascinating to me that at the beginning of what is such a critical year for him, that he's actually taken the risk of saying, you know what? Yeah, I'm going to sit down and I'm properly going to go through this and I'm going to do nearly an hour of speaking to. To you on. On BBC1.
- [31:46]
Paddy O'Connell
That is retro and it'll be interesting.
- [31:48]
Chris Mason
Newscasters tell us if you think actually it was a borathon, mainly because I was dull, or whether actually people enjoy listening to politicians in that kind of format in that way. I don't know. It'd be really interesting to see. What are you doing?
- [31:59]
Paddy O'Connell
We're going to do the we're going to unpick the operation to seize Maduro from his bed. We've got a former assault helicopter pilot coming in to tell us how that happened. And as I've mentioned, we spoke to John Bolton Walton.
- [32:10]
Chris Mason
Is he coming in a helicopter?
- [32:11]
Paddy O'Connell
He won't be coming in a helicopter. Good question. Because we, you know.
- [32:14]
Chris Mason
Did you ask him?
- [32:15]
Paddy O'Connell
I didn't, but I haven't spoken to him yet.
- [32:17]
Chris Mason
Oh.
- [32:17]
Paddy O'Connell
So look, we say to these. Thank goodness. We say to you listening. Thank heavens. And we also say goodbye.
- [32:24]
Chris Mason
Goodbye for now. We'll speak to you tomorrow. Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [32:28]
Podcast Host
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I just gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-2394 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.
- [33:08]
Chris Mason
Bye.
- [33:15]
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