Two More Problems For Keir Starmer?

Summary

Newscast (BBC News)

Episode Title: Two More Problems For Keir Starmer?
Date: February 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode delves into two of the most significant political stories affecting UK politics: the mounting scrutiny of Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s judgment—especially regarding the appointment of Matthew Doyle to the House of Lords—and the broader fallout from the Epstein files, including a striking intervention by former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. The episode also features an on-the-ground update from Lise Doucet in Tehran, reporting on the aftermath of protests and the regime’s response in Iran.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Starmer’s Turbulent Week and PMQs Performance

(Starts ~01:05)

• Setting the Scene: The week in Westminster has been described as "extraordinary," with Starmer’s leadership under intense pressure.

  "It's been quite the week and we're just reporting on it, you know. We’re not the people at the center of it. We’re just the observers."
  (Chris Mason, 01:22)

• Prime Minister’s Questions (PMQs):
  • Starmer received a significant boost from his MPs in PMQs, reflecting party solidarity after a “bumpy week.”
  • Leaders of all three major parties came out "pretty punchy," with robust exchanges—particularly over the Matthew Doyle peerage issue.
  • Alexis notes the tradition:

    "The louder the cheer, potentially the more they need shoring up."
    (Alex, 03:39)

  • Ed Davy (Lib Dems) managed to visibly rile the Prime Minister, prompting a rare “authentic finger jabbing anger” response.

    "One of authentic finger jabbing anger from the Prime Minister towards the Lib Dem leader."
    (Chris Mason, 04:29)

2. The Matthew Doyle Peerage Controversy

(Begins ~04:52; Main focus 05:34–13:41)

• Background Recap:
  • Matthew Doyle, a long-serving Labour figure and Starmer’s Director of Communications, was announced as a future Labour peer in December.
  • Soon after, it emerged that Doyle had in the past campaigned for a council candidate, Sean Morton, who was charged (and later convicted) with child sex offenses.
  • Doyle claims he supported Morton during Morton’s protestations of innocence.
• Judgment Under Fire:
  • Repeated questions about Starmer’s wisdom in offering Doyle a peerage, particularly after the revelations.
  • Labour’s explanation is that Downing Street was unaware of the full details at the time of the appointment.
• Clarifications about the Process:
  • There is a lapse between the announcement of a peerage and the formal conferral (letters patent).
  • Debate over whether the appointment could have been stopped post-revelation.

    "Authorities... say, no. Until the letters patent happen, the peerage is not actually cast in stone."
    (Chris Mason, 11:51)

Memorable Interchange

• Kemi Badenoch (Tory Leader) during PMQs:

  "A few weeks ago, [Starmer] announced a peerage for one Matthew Doyle... Immediately after that, the Sunday Times published... that Doyle campaigned for a man charged with child sex offences. Yet despite the Prime Minister knowing this, he gave Doyle a job for life in the House of Lords anyway."
  (Kemi Badenoch, 08:24)

• Starmer’s Response:

  "Matthew Doyle did not give a full account of his actions... They will be changed. And yesterday I removed the whip from Matthew Doyle."
  (Keir Starmer via Chris Mason, 09:03)

• Moral Dilemma Raised:
  • Is it fair to punish Doyle for actions taken before any conviction, under the principle of innocence until proven guilty?

    "If we believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty, is it reasonable for Lord Doyle to be stripped of his peerage for his actions relating to someone who was, at the point at which he took those actions... innocent?"
    (James, 10:36)

3. Critique of Leadership and “Boys Club” Allegations

(13:41–15:07)

• Questions About No. 10 Operations:
  • Criticisms resurface about whether a “boys club mentality” exists in Downing Street.
  • Proposal from within Labour: Create a new "First Secretary of State" post, filled by a senior woman, to help address concerns.

    "That underlying sense, and it has been alive for a long time... perception can be reality. And there has been a persistent perception from critics... of a 'boys club’."
    (Chris Mason, 14:44)

4. Gordon Brown’s Intervention on the Epstein Files

(15:31–20:01)

• Significant Intervention:
  • Gordon Brown publishes a powerful article in the New Statesman after examining the Epstein files.
  • Calls Britain’s unacknowledged role in the abuse “shocking,” and demands a major police investigation—including an interview with Prince Andrew.

    "Britain's as yet unacknowledged role in facilitating or failing to stop that abuse... has shocked me to the core."
    (Gordon Brown via James, 16:05)

• Police Response:
  • The Met previously downplayed its jurisdiction but Brown’s intervention compels a direct call for further investigation.
  • Thames Valley Police is reportedly making progress in discussions about Prince Andrew’s role.

    "Revelations... require the police to interview Andrew Mountbatten Windsor."
    (James, 18:19)

5. Wider Implications of the Epstein Revelations

(19:24–20:01)

• Discussion about how focus on Mandelson and UK political links with Epstein overshadows the broader abuse and trafficking suffered by victims.
• Brown is quoted highlighting media priorities:

  “Leaks of market sensitive financial information have incurred far more coverage than the victims.”
  (Gordon Brown, quoted by Alex, 19:52)

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6. On-The-Ground Report: Iran Protests and Regime Response

(From 21:41 onwards)

Guest: Lise Doucet, BBC Chief International Correspondent

• Reporting Constraints and Atmosphere:

  “Places always look more dangerous from a distance... Iran is a mix of frustration and fascination... but there is also intense surveillance.”
  (Lise Doucet, 22:25–23:08)

• Protest Crackdown:
  • The government put down protests with lethal force—official death toll reported as over 3,100, human rights groups suggest it could be up to 7,000 or more.

  “Government here told us yesterday their official death toll is about 3,100... other projections could be in the tens of thousands.”
  (Lise Doucet, 25:23–26:48)

• Public Sentiment:
  • Many Iranians venting pain and anger; economic hardship (4-5x inflation) fueling discontent.
• Regime Resilience:
  • Despite predictions, the Islamic Republic shows no major cracks, highlighting the complexity of public support.

  “The situation is not black and white... what is undeniable is that 47 years on, the authorities here faced their most critical test.”
  (Lise Doucet, 28:22–29:47)

Diplomatic and Security Situation

• Anniversary Celebrations as Show of Strength:
  • Mass rallies staged by loyalists to project regime stability despite recent unrest.
• US-Iran Relations:
  • Ongoing shuttle diplomacy; US wants maximalist concessions on nuclear and missile programs, Iran demands rights to civilian enrichment.

    “Iran says we need to be allowed a certain amount commensurate with civilian purposes... That’s where discussions are now.”
    (Lise Doucet, 31:16–33:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On PMQs and Leader’s Support:

  “The louder the cheer, potentially the more they need shoring up.”
  (Alex, 03:39)

• On “Boys Club” Critique:

  “There has been a persistent perception from critics of the Prime Minister of that sense of a quote, unquote, boys club.”
  (Chris Mason, 14:44)

• Gordon Brown’s Intervention:

  “Britain’s as yet unacknowledged role in facilitating or failing to stop that abuse has shocked me to the core.”
  (Gordon Brown via James, 16:05)

• Reporting from Iran:

  “Places always look more dangerous from a distance... But this is a country which is not a North Korea at all. This is people of very courageous people, very outspoken people.”
  (Lise Doucet, 22:25–23:25)

• On Public Suffering in Iran:

  “More than one person just burst into tears when I asked... like, 'what’s the main worry on your mind this month?'”
  (Lise Doucet, 24:15)

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:05–04:52: Setting the scene, PMQs reactions
• 04:52–13:41: Matthew Doyle peerage scandal, questions of judgment, PMQs aftermath
• 13:41–15:07: Boys club allegations and Labour Party’s internal debate
• 15:31–20:01: Gordon Brown’s New Statesman article, Epstein files, policing and political ramifications
• 21:41–26:48: Live from Tehran: Reporting restrictions, aftermath of protest crackdown
• 26:48–29:47: Cost of living, regime stability, regime’s response to protests
• 29:47–33:19: Iran’s global diplomacy, nuclear talks, regional security issues

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Conclusion

This episode grapples with the compounded challenges facing Keir Starmer: mounting questions about his judgment and leadership in light of the Matthew Doyle controversy, persistent criticism over Downing Street’s internal culture, and the wider implications from the Epstein scandal, now stoked by Gordon Brown’s forceful calls for action. The episode also offers a rare, nuanced insight into present-day Iran amid unrest, thanks to Lise Doucet’s frontline reporting.

Listeners come away understanding not just the headlines, but the critical nuances, tensions, and human consequences shaping both UK politics and world affairs this week.

Transcript

[BBC Announcer]

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[James (Host)]

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[James (Host)]

Chris is here.

[Chris Mason]

Hello.

[James (Host)]

We've not heard from you this week yet.

[Chris Mason]

Well, you know, it's not much been going on, has there been.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

It's been so quiet, Chris. You've just been sat at home twiddling your thumbs.

[James (Host)]

How would you sum it up so far?

[Chris Mason]

I'm glad, as we're recording that it is Wednesday night because it kind of feels like, I don't know, like Friday night or Saturday morning.

[James (Host)]

Friday next week?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. It has been, it's been quite the week and we're just reporting on it, you know, we're not the. We're not the people at the center of it. We're just the observers.

[James (Host)]

What are your headlines?

[Chris Mason]

I should turn the volume off on my laptop.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

That's a good headline.

[James (Host)]

You're not the first person to have done that in here so far. I'm sorry to see. I did it too.

[Chris Mason]

It's just, it's been an extraordinary week, hasn't it? I mean, I'm conscious we've used that line a lot on Newscaster the last umpteen years, but it's been extraordinary because the Prime Minister survived a genuine threat to his premiership. And for a couple of hours on Monday, it was real. It was very, very, very real, as some folk in the building acknowledge, let alone the rest of us. And this is the kind of post that moment of him surviving and then trying to regroup and carry on.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And yet the twists and turns continue and we shall discuss them all on this episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Fat Boy Slim and me in the.

[Reggie (Advertiser)]

Classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Kemi Badenoch]

I was the tattletale in the class.

[James (Host)]

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody. Then Daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Next time in Moscow, I feel Delulu with no Salulu.

[Chris Mason]

Take me down to Downing Street.

[James (Host)]

Let's go have a tour.

[Chris Mason]

Blimey.

[James (Host)]

Hello, it's James in the studio and.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

It'S Alex in the Westminster studio.

[James (Host)]

Yeah, I should have said that. Good point.

[Chris Mason]

And it's Chris from Westminster too.

[James (Host)]

And later in this episode, a new must. Newscasters, you must, must stay for this. We'll be talking to Lise Doucet who is in Tehran. We've spoken to her already and really just ooze stamina.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And stay on to listen.

[James (Host)]

I mean you. We don't hear from Iran very often with our own people and it's Lise and she's amazing. So you should definitely stay for that if you can. But first, equally amazing as well, doesn't it?

[Chris Mason]

And everything else, I mean, you know.

[James (Host)]

Equally amazing as you see Chris Mason Prime Minister's questions today, last before the February recess. How do you think he got on the Prime Minister?

[Chris Mason]

He arrived to a big, big. I mean, he always gets a big cheer from his benches, but a really big cheer. And that does tend to happen across the parties when a leader's had a bumpy week. A sense of their own side thinking. The leaders got through it, let's give them a big cheer on the way in. And that happened and it was noticeable.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

It's totally that thing like you say, leader after leader, party after party. The louder the chee potentially the more they need shoring up.

[Chris Mason]

I thought what was interesting about PMQ today was that the leaders of the three biggest parties at Westminster were all pretty punchy. So the Prime Minister was pretty punchy. He had some good lines. He had a self deprecating line at the beginning when he was doing the conventional opening line about having meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. And he said rather a lot of those this week. It was quite a neatly turned line and a knowing chuckle. I thought he was quite sharp in his critique of Kemi Badenok, the Conservative leader, talking about how his election success had shriveled the Tory party to a historically low number in Parliament and it had got lower since, given the defections to reform. And then Ed Davy, the Lib Dem leader, did manage to get, I think, under the Prime Minister's skin with his questioning around the main topic today, which we'll come to. Which prompted a moment I've not seen before, which was one of authentic finger jabbing anger from the Prime Minister towards the Lib Dem leader.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Yeah. And it was interesting because this obviously was a sort of Prime Minister's questions. I'm not suggesting that everybody at home sits and watches Prime Minister's questions at 12 o' clock on a Wednesday lunchtime, because people probably have better things to do.

[James (Host)]

Jobs. They call them jobs.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

They call them jobs. But however, you know, in, in, in the kind of context of politics in Parliament, it is a set, showpiece moment of the week. So it was a bit of an opportunity for Keir Starmer to get up there after what has been a really, really difficult few days and kind of deliver the fighting talk that we've heard him say over the course of the last 24 hours or so. But it just struck me that despite that, he was once again dragged back to answering questions about his own judgment. And this is all to do with Matthew Dore. And why don't I just. Because news we, we mentioned this to newscasters when. On. When we discussed this on Tuesday, but it's a fairly complicated situation. So if I just sort of give the rundown of what has happened here.

[James (Host)]

And why, it's quite helpful.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Yeah.

[James (Host)]

So.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

So Matthew Doyle, so senior party, a senior figure in the Labour Party and has been for some time now. Keir Starmer bought him in as Director of Communications at Downing Street. From the very first day that Keir Starmer took office after winning the general election, Matthew Doyle then left that job. And then back in December, Keir Starmer announced that Matthew Doyle was going to be made a Labour peer, so elevated to the House of Lords. Shortly after that, the Sunday Times revealed in its reporting that some time ago, Matthew Doyle had had campaigned for a council candidate in Scotland, a man called Sha Morton, who at that time had been charged with offenses relating to children. Specifically, it was a. It was possessing indec. And distributing indecent images. This was back in 2016, 2017. So this then came to light in the Sunday Times reporting. Now, Matthew Doyle has apologized for that past association with Sean Morton. He said at the time he was campaigning for Sha Morton. Sha Morton had. Had not been convicted and was protesting his innocence. And Matthew Dole has since said he does accept that that was an error of judgment, but the questions really have since been centered on the Prime Minister's judgment about elevating him to the House of Lords and giving him his appearance and then getting into the detail of what was known from Downing street and when.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, and there's a real sense here of deja vu, because here you have a case study in. In a senior Labour figure being offered a job that is in the gift of the Prime Minister. There then being revelations that ask questions about whether offering that job was a good idea, followed by the Prime Minister then posing sharp questions and criticisms of the person themselves and the process that led to their appointment. Ring any bells? There are big differences between the two cases because those parallels, Lord Mandelson and Lord Doyle, there are clearly in the process similarities. And so, yeah, questions today from Kemi Badenog in particular, and lots of questions, by the way, after PMQs, from all of us lot as a press pack to the Prime Minister's team about, well, what did you know? What questions were asked around the appointment of Lord Doyle? And then also, why is it only now, this week, yesterday, as we're recording, so on Tuesday, that Labour suspended Lord Doyle from their team in the House of Lords, took the whip away. Could there not went the questions have been a decision taken after that Gabriel Pogrand Sunday Times piece that the peerage would be rescinded? And would that be possible? The Government suggesting it was too late, Parliamentary officials saying, no, it wasn't.

[James (Host)]

Well, on that very point, let's have a listen to it, because this was the Leader of the Opposition, Kemi Badenoch, tackling Sir Keir Starmer on that.

[Kemi Badenoch]

The Mandelson episode was not an isolated incident. A few weeks ago, he announced a peerage for one Matthew Doyle, his former director of Communications. Immediately after that, the Sunday Times published on the front page that Doyle campaigned for a man charged with child sex offences. Yet despite the Prime Minister knowing this, he gave Doyle a job for life in the House of Lords anyway.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Why?

[Chris Mason]

Prime Minister, Mr. Speaker, Matthew Doyle did not give a full account of his actions on Monday.

[James (Host)]

I promised my party and my country.

[Chris Mason]

They will be changed. And yesterday I removed the whip from Matthew Doyle.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Yes, so we have this. So there were lots of references to Matthew Doyle in the House of Commons today. And we had had this statement I referenced from Matthew Doyle initially when he talked about apologizing for his association, fact that Sean Morton was protesting his innocence. But I'm not sure, Chris, if we've heard anything from Matthew Doyle since.

[Chris Mason]

We haven't. And obviously, journalistically, we. There's an obligation for fairness to offer anyone in these situations, particularly when they've faced an accusation from the Prime Minister like that, a chance to set out their argument. I've been in touch with Lord Doyle today, he doesn't want to comment anymore beyond that on the record statement that he gave on Tuesday in which he acknowledged the error of judgment.

[James (Host)]

What.

What was the process for appointing him and is he now going to be unappointed to the Lords?

[Chris Mason]

So there is a process and questions are asked. The clear impression I was left with from the long exchanges with the Prime Minister's team at lunchtime is that they did not know at the time of appointment of the detail around Matthew Doyle campaigning alongside this guy when he had been charged, but at that point was still insisting on his innocence. He did later plead, and we should.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Say, yeah, he has subsequently convicted.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

So Downing street argue that that is what they didn't know, with the implication that they were aware of the association.

[James (Host)]

Is there not a further moral question, if we're now turning the newscast into the moral maze, as to if we believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty, is it reasonable for Lord Doyle to be stripped of his peerage for his actions relating to someone was, at the point at which he took those actions on the basis of that principle, innocent?

[Chris Mason]

Indeed. So that's absolutely a question, particularly when it is that detail that Downing street are insisting is the key detail they were not aware of at the point they decided to confer a peerage on Matthew Doyle. The second part of your question, James, is also a key one here, which is that having announced that he was getting a Labour peerage, there is then a gap between that point and what are known as letters patent, when the peerage becomes a thing and that gap included within it, the Sunday Times front page, in other words, which, again, for context, and this is important, when we unpick these things, was just before New Year, it was in the Christmas holidays, Parliament's in recess, and it is before all of this slew of revelations that are unconnected but create the atmosphere in which we are now, which is the whole revelations involving Epstein. So the government has argued that it was too late, basically, once they'd announced the peerage. It is too late. We have heard today from the authorities. Well, actually, no. Until the letters patent happen, the peerage is not actually cast in stone. And in practical terms, if the Prime Minister had decided to, say on New Year's Eve or in early January, by the way, again, the context was the swirl about Venezuela not after, not long after New Year, then in reality, he wouldn't have become a peer.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And the thing that sits behind all of this, of course, is the central question, which has been a running theme of critics of Keir Starmer which they are. This has now given them another opportunity to air, which is the question of judgment, judgment and the operation in number 10. And are those two things working as they should be? And actually, what was interesting in some of Kemi Badenok's questions, questioning, but also followed up by where the Prime Minister went after Prime Minister's questions, was about the sort of central number 10 operation and whether they are fully understanding the impact or potential implications of some of the decisions they are making. So Kemi Badenot was referencing this term, which kicks around in Westminster, about a boys club mentality in number 10. And straight after Prime Minister's questions, Keir Starmer went off to address a meeting of senior women mps, labor mps, so it's the Women's Parliamentary Labor Party. And that sort of same sentiment, I think, came up in room about this concern among senior figures in the Labour Party women about whether or not there has been a boys club mentality in number 10. And interestingly, one of their suggested answers to that was creating a whole new post, what they're calling a First Secretary of State, which would be a female appointed to said post to try and address what some perceive as this boys club mentality. And the Prime Minister said he'd take it away.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. And a couple of sort of asides to that which are sort of worth noting, which is that there is a precedent for having a First Secretary of State. Gordon Brown had one, and that First Secretary of State was Lord Mandelson. And at the time, there wasn't a Deputy Prime Minister. So you were effectively creating a deputy in all but name. Were you to have a first Secretary of State now, you would then have a kind of governing structure around the Prime Minister, both in government and in the Labour Party, where you had a Prime Minister, you had a Deputy Prime Minister, David Lammy, who's a man, you have a deputy leader of the Labour Party, Lucy Powell, who is a woman, you have a chair of the Labour Party, Anna Turley, who is a woman. And then you have a First Secretary of State, which would be a government position, unlike Lucy Powell's and Anna Turley's, who would be a First Secretary of State, but is actually kind of number three in the pecking order, presumably. I mean, let's see. I mean, the Prime Minister could say otherwise, but where you've got a Deputy Prime Minister as well. But it gets to, I think, as you say, that underlying sense, and it has been alive for a long time. There are some who, including senior women in Downing street, who dispute the idea of a Quote, unquote, boys club. But to an extent, in life, as in politics, perception can be reality. And there has been a persistent perception from critics of the Prime Minister of that sense of a quote, unquote, boys club.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And it'll be interesting to see what Keir Starmer chooses to do with some of the gaps he's currently got on his Downing street team and who ends up filling them. But you mentioned Gordon Brown had a first Secretary of State, and actually Gordon Brown talking of him, James has written this piece for the New Statesman which looks at the much bigger picture around the Epstein files. And we've been reading it since it dropped a few hours ago, and there's some really quite extraordinary stuff in there.

[James (Host)]

I think this is really significant. I think this is a big intervention and Gordon Brown does tend to choose his moments to intervene pretty carefully. I mean, on Saturday's newscast, Laura and Paddy were talking about his interview on the Today program in which he expressed qualified support, I would say, for Sakir Starmer saying the situation for the Prime Minister was serious. He might have been too slow to do the right things. Now he's made another intervention and this time he is talking. He says he's been wading through the Epstein files. Right? That's the basis on which he's published this piece. It's not an interview piece he's written for the New Statesman. He says, I've delved deep into the Epstein files. He says Britain's as yet unacknowledged role in the abuse of women by male predators and their enablers has shocked me to the core. Or rather, Britain's as yet unacknowledged role in facilitating or failing to stop that abuse. He says there must be an in depth police investigation. He calls it the biggest scandal of all. He talks in detail. I mean, Gordon Brown's campaigned in this area anyway, the treatment of women and girls. He's been very involved in this area since he left Downing street. And he talks about the files opening our eyes to the sheer scale of the sex trafficking industry. But he's particularly interested in what he suggests. And again, we have not verified the information in the Epstein files, or not all of it, and certainly not what we're talking about here. But he talks about the issuing of visas and the transportation of British girls on Epstein flights organized from UK airports. And he talks about some of those flights being given the go ahead after Epstein's conviction in 2008 for soliciting sex from a minor. So the point is, he's saying this is a greater scandal than the profumo affairs. He's saying it's an outrage what's happened. And crucially, he is saying, I have asked the Met, the Metropolitan Police in London urgently to re examine their decision making in their investigation and in the subsequent reviews. And he thinks they need to look again at information that he thinks suggests there has been trafficking of British girls and through British on British soil and it needs to be investigated. I don't know what you both think of that, but it strikes me as a very significant intervention.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Just picking up on that final point, he is. He's not being openly critical of the Metropolitan Police directly, but he is making the point that the Metropolitan Police said that any investigation into human trafficking would largely be about territories outside the uk, effectively implying that a lot of this was based in the us might be outside their jurisdiction, but this is a very direct call from a former Prime Minister for them to look again.

[James (Host)]

Oh, and I missed one thing importantly, the revelations he said require the police to interview Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. Yeah, that's the headline on the article, actually. Chris, what do you make of it?

[Chris Mason]

It is a big intervention, I think, and I think it's a reminder, isn't it, of all of the strands and consequences that are gonna have longevity to them of what has happened in the last fortnight. In other words, that deluge of documents from the Department of Justice in the United States. We see it, the ramifications of it, in so many different parts of our national conversation at the moment. You know, when we examine, for instance, the consequences of that vote a week ago in the House of Commons around the documents to be released connected to the appointments of Peter Mandelson and more broadly than that, that is a drip, drip consequence that's going to take. There's going to be months in the making. This potentially could be as well. It'd be fascinating to see how the Metropolitan Police respond and the extent to which what Gordon Brown is saying is picked up or not by the Government.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

It's just a final sort of brief thought on this. You know, I think Gordon Brown here is articulating what we have touched upon, a newscast, actually, that whereas the focus of a lot of the fallout of the Epstein files, particularly in the uk, has been quite heavily, for understandable reasons, been focused on, for example, Peter Mandelson and his relationship with Epstein. Epstein and that kind of element of it, what Gordon Brown is talking about here and trying to draw attention to is something so much broader.

[Chris Mason]

Yes, potentially logistics.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And he's talking about networks of wealthy Men, primarily. And there's just a line in here when he says leaks of market sensitive financial information have incurred far more coverage than the victims.

[James (Host)]

Yeah, I highlighted that as well. I thought that was significant. Two things just to say off the back of that before we finish. The BBC has approached Andrew Mountbatten Windsor for comment on this article. Not heard back. He's previously strongly denied any wrongdoing in his associations with Epstein and Thames Valley Police, which is actually leading that aspect of the investigation, rather than. The Met at the moment, has held discussions with specialist prosecutors from the Crown Prosecution Service about allegations that Mr. Mountbatten Windsor shared confidential reports from his role as the UK's trade envoy with Epstein and is making progress as quickly as possible. That's what we had from them in a statement today. Just to wrap that up. Chris, good to see you.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Don't leave it so long, Nick.

[Chris Mason]

Time. See you tomorrow. How about that?

[James (Host)]

Yeah, sounds good. Now, authorities in Iran have put on a show of strength, I think you could call it, to mark the 47th anniversary of the Islamic revolution. And that, of course, as you will remember, as newscasters will remember, comes weeks after they used unprecedented force to put down anti government protests. It is, as you will know, very unusual for us to be able to report from Iran. BBC journalists are generally not allowed into the country, not that often at all. But our chief international correspondent, Lise Doucet is in Tehran and we need to explain that Lise is reporting from the country on the condition that none of our material is used on the BBC's Persian service, and those restrictions apply to all international media organizations operating in Iran. And we can speak to Liz now. Hello.

Hello, James and Alex. I wish I was in the studio with you, but it's also good to be back in Iran.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Elise, you've been so busy. You've been reporting for all BBC news outlets and we've seen a lot of your coverage. But we have got a question for you from newscaster Rob. Always grateful when newscasters drop us a line. And I think the sentiment in Rob's question probably sums up what quite a lot of people want to know about your experience in Tehran, including us. So I hope you don't mind, Lisa, if I just put it to you. Rob says, hello, newscast. I have a question, question for Lise. What's it like being in Iran, walking around and taking it all in? Risky, scary or not at all? As bad as it sounds. Thanks, Rob. Well, thank you, Rob, for getting in touch. Liz, I don't know what you can say To Rob and all of us really about it.

[James (Host)]

Well, thank you, Rob. Thank you for following newscast and thank you for being interested in Iran. I have this expression which is that places always look more dangerous from a distance.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

It's.

[James (Host)]

And in reporting in Iran, and I've been reporting from here since 1989, from the funeral of the first revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Khomeini. And so I've always described Iran as a mix of frustration and fascination. It's an extraordinary country with such welcoming people and such a rich culture. But there is also an intense, there's an atmosphere of suspicion and intense surveillance by the authorities in the Islamic Republic of Iran. And when we go out into the streets, filming or recording, we're often stopped by members of various security forces, often taken in for questioning. And then we have our government issued badges and so we're eventually released. So you have to be careful. But I was really struck by my last trip to Iran, which was a year ago as the 12 day war between Iran and Israel, which also drew in the United States, was ending. And so many questions seem to suggest that Iran was like North Korea, a place where people don't dare express their views. And this is a country which is not a North Korea at all. This is people of very courageous people, very outspoken people. When we go out on the streets, if we have a camera, people are more nervous and they are nervous now after this unprecedented crackdown of last month. But when we go out, as we did yesterday, just for radio, having conversations with people, if you heard some of our reporting people on this trip, there's been such, it's been really quite moving, actually, even painful. People have been venting their anger and their pain. More than one person just burst into tears when I asked them a very open question, like, what's the main worry on your mind this month? So for a journalist to be in a country at such a defining, such a historic moment for those journalists, and you know, me and Alex and James still believe that face to face journalists on the ground is always the best kind of journalism. And so whatever the difficulties, whatever the limits of operations here, it's good to.

Be here, of course. I mean, it's amazing to hear your description of it in that way. And it is obviously extremely good for everyone that you're there to tell us what's going on. Lise, in terms of what is going on, is that nervousness and behavior towards you and other journalists from the regime. Do you think that's been heightened by what's happened in recent months? And can you just bring us up to date for newscasters, up to date about where we are with those protests? You know, how many people. Do we know how many people died in them? And have they been completely quashed by the regime?

Yeah. Iran's story, this particular chapter of Iran's story is still being told. And we may never know all of the details of this extraordinary moment when this uprising, which was triggered by a strike by shopkeepers in the bazaar, who, who shut their doors, brought down their shades because they simply couldn't trade the real currency, collapsed against the dollar. And so they wanted to vent their anger against the government's failure to address a deepening economic crisis. But it quickly spiraled into something much, much bigger and about much bigger issues, with calls even to bring down the Islamic Republic. But as the protest intensified and spread across the country, so too the government's crackdown intensified. And there was this near total Internet blackout, which is being described as one of the longest digital shutdown in history. And in those, when Iran almost went to dark, when we were just getting trickles of videos and messages, brave Iranians sending them out through Starlink satellite terminals, the government went in with lethal force. And today, as the streets have been emptied of these protests, it's simply too dangerous for people to go out in those numbers into the streets. They see how the government will meet them. The government here told us yesterday that their official death toll is about 3,100. What we have been hearing from human rights group groups who've been trying to document this extraordinary moment, they say it's just short of 7,000, and there are other projections that it could be in the tens of thousands. Government officials here say to me that they're telling Iranians to come forward to talk, to tell them the details of someone who died. But people are very nervous. They're worried that their loved ones could be taken in as protesters. There's even been accusations that the government is asking for money for people to be given the bodies which are in the morgue for burial. So it's still shrouded in a lot of uncertainty, a lot of questions. And I have to say, just being here, you feel the pain of people after all that's happened here.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

And with all of that as the backdrop, Liz, there's this sort of strange juxtaposition, because I've seen some of the images that you've sent in from your reporting in Tehran, and newscasters can look on the BBC news website, and you've sort of got a city that's bedecked in flags and bunting, because it's this moment, this 47th anniversary of the Islamic revolution, and we've had this address from the President of Iran today. I just wonder when you've got this moment, when the regime is sort of celebrating the revolution of 1979, how the messaging from the regime is landing with people against that backdrop of the recent protests.

[James (Host)]

During the this wave of protests as it grew, there were so many predictions from so many capitals that the Islamic Republic was about to collapse, that it was on its last days, it was just a question of days. But there were no major cracks within the clerical rule. There were no mass defections, no evidence of any mass defections in the security forces who are ideologically loyal to the Islamic Republic. And therefore what we are seeing today in this show of strength, but huge crowds flooding those same streets which had been filled with protesters. These are the most loyal foot soldiers of the revolution. Of course, some people were bussed in for the day, but it is a reminder that this government does have some support. It's very hard to say how much the protests tell us that there is also widespread dissatisfaction with the clerical rule, but it's not to say that they are not without support. And this is what happened today, not just here in Tehran, in a main artery going through the heart of the city, but also in major streets across this country, is basically the government's political reply to its critics saying, look at this, look at the people who come out in the street in support of the Islamic Republic. The situation is not black and white, but so too the protests weren't black and white. But what is undeniable is that 47 years on, the authorities here faced their most critical test since their own uprising nearly a half century ago, both in terms of the unrest at home, including with this soaring inflation. You talk about a cost of living crisis in Britain. Iranians tell us that they're paying four to five times more for cooking oil, for meat, for chicken, that the prices have really been sky high, and so too is unemployment. And at the same time, they are facing these repeated threats of more military strikes by the United States if this new intensifying diplomacy over Iran's nuclear program and more doesn't succeed.

And what's the latest on that, Lis? Because Donald Trump's been hosting the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu at the White House. Obviously, there's been a lot of speculation about what Mr. Trump intends to do with regards to Iran. And as ever with the US President, he's perhaps deliberately been Keeping people guessing. And one minute seems to suggest that there could be strikes any minute and at the next, pulling back. What is the latest with those negotiations? What are they. Are they talking? Who's talking? What are they talking about?

Well, they're definitely talking. And I have to say, if you compare now the shuttle diplomacy, the messaging compared to last year, when what had been five rounds of mainly indirect talks before as senior Iranian and American delegation, which were shattered, of course, by Israel's attacks on Iran in June last year. There's much more diplomacy now. A very senior Iranian official has been in the Gulf state of Oman, which has been the main Arab mediator between the United States and Iran. He carried a message. We know that the foreign minister here, Abbas al Raqchi, has been on the telephone repeatedly to his counterparts across this region. They've been on the phone repeatedly to the American president telling him, don't go for military action. You will set in train instability across this region. A region where you remember when President Trump made his first foreign trip of his second term, he went to the Gulf states and he boasted that he signed a trillion dollars in deals every day, in every stop. President Trump wants to avoid that kind of chaos. He doesn't want to be sucked into a long confrontation, certainly not in a year of the midterm elections. He wants something short, sharp, successful, and he would like a deal. Iran says it wants a deal. But the way the discussions have been going, so wrong, in brief, is that the Americans keep making these maximalist demands. Zero nuclear enrichment, limits on the ballistic missile program, an end to Iran's engagement in the region to which Iran says, you're asking us to surrender. Yes, we agree. We don't want nuclear weapons. We haven't crossed the line, but we need to be allowed a certain amount commensurate with civilian purposes. Nuclear enrichment, about 3 to somewhere around 3, less than 3 or 4%, not zero enrichment. And that's where the discussions are now. And there are many different. Prime Minister Netanyahu, Israel. The main reason why he's in Washington is to make it absolutely clear to President Trump it can't just be nuclear. There has to be limits on the ballistic missiles which are now in range of Israel. There has to be a stop to its nefarious activities across the region. Its supports for military, for militias, of course, which are now have been in battle with Israel as, as well. Will President Trump, who wants a deal for the sake of a deal, go for the narrow path, which will could happen more quickly? Will he listen to Israel as You said he likes to keep people guessing from one day to the next.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

I suspect all of exactly those kind of thoughts that are playing more heavily on the minds of the people in Iran as much as anybody else. And Lisa, just a sort of final thank you to you for being there for us and bringing us the. The voices of the people in Tehran because exactly as you say, there's just no substitute for that kind of thing.

[James (Host)]

Definitely not. Thank you so much, Lise.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Thank you, Lies. And yes, good luck with the rest of the trip.

[James (Host)]

Thank you so much. Really good. Thank you. Thank you. Great. I have a great team here too. Nikki Millard and Charlotte Scar, they're here with me too.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Absolutely. Credit to all of you.

[James (Host)]

Brilliant. Say hello. Thanks very much, Lies. And that's it for this episode of Newscast, which I thought was very interesting.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Aren't they? Not.

[James (Host)]

Very interesting.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

We will be back with hopefully another interesting episode of Newscast very soon. Goodbye.

[James (Host)]

Bye. Bye. Newscast.

[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Outro Announcer]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Signs? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 33123 9480. Be assured, I promise you listen to everyone.

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[Chris Mason]

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[James (Host)]

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[Chris Mason]

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[Alex (Westminster Studio)]

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[James (Host)]

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