Victoria Derbyshire on the Gisèle Pelicot Interview

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Newscast — Victoria Derbyshire on the Gisèle Pelicot Interview

Date: February 14, 2026
Hosts: Laura Kuenssberg, Paddy O’Connell, with guest Victoria Derbyshire
Main Theme:
An in-depth discussion with Victoria Derbyshire about her exclusive interview with Gisèle Pelicot—the woman at the center of France’s largest rape trial. The episode explores Pelicot’s harrowing personal story, her strength, the public’s response, and the wider implications for society and victims of gender-based violence.

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Episode Overview

The episode centers on BBC journalist Victoria Derbyshire’s powerful interview with Gisèle Pelicot, whose story of survival, agency, and resilience has resonated worldwide. The Newscast hosts and Victoria discuss Pelicot’s journey from devastating betrayal and trauma to choosing “the light,” as well as the case’s broader meaning for conversations around shame, agency, and justice for survivors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meeting Gisèle Pelicot: Preparation and Anticipation

• Victoria Derbyshire describes her apprehension before meeting Pelicot, having researched the case extensively without prior personal interaction.
  • "I was really apprehensive about meeting her...I knew a lot about the accused, the 51 men who were convicted. I knew very little about her apart from some of the statements she made in court and that powerful plea...that shame must change sides from the victim to the rapist." (03:20)
• Victoria’s nerves also stemmed from the language barrier, having to rely on her modest French, highlighting the emotional stakes and the importance of showing respect.

The Impact of Pelicot’s Memoir

• Reading Pelicot’s memoir left Victoria both horrified and uplifted:
  • "She experienced the most devastating betrayal...And yet I felt this sense of hope by the end of it because she is determined not to be overwhelmed or defined by what has happened to her...she has chosen to think life is short. I am still alive...and I am choosing the light." (04:57)

Outpouring of Support—Public and Royal

• Pelicot received both grassroots and high-profile support:
  • Daily “guard of honour” from women outside the courthouse (06:11)
  • A personal letter from Queen Camilla, commending her courage and creating “a powerful legacy that will change the narrative around shame forever.” (19:48, see key quote below)

Exploring the Perpetrator's Motive

• Pelicot believes she was targeted for her independence and refusal to participate in her husband’s sexual fantasies:
  • "She said that these are her words. She was an unbreakable woman. And for some reason, her husband, the love of her life, had wanted to break her." (07:55)
  • "He learned...how you could drug somebody and, you know, chemically make them submit." (07:55)

The Unimaginable Scale and Suffering

• The case uncovered 51 men, from everyday walks of life, involved in repeated assaults—challenging preconceptions about perpetrators of sexual violence. (09:40)
• The interview emphasizes the mundane, “ordinary” backgrounds of the accused.

The Courage to Go Public

• Pelicot’s profound decision to waive anonymity was rooted in shifting shame from victim to perpetrator:
  • "When I decided against a closed hearing, I wanted the shame to shift to the other side...Victims are being punished twice. And I thought that if I was able to overcome it, all victims could do it too..." (14:52 - 15:24)

Family Devastation and Surviving the Fallout

• The trauma tore her family apart, particularly her relationship with her children.
• The episode addresses allegations against her husband pertaining to their daughter, Caroline, and how this unresolved pain complicates healing. (16:45, 24:22)

Finding Strength and the Possibility of New Love

• Pelicot attributes her resilience to the strong women in her family:
  • "I was born like this because I experienced tragedies very young, through my grandmother, through my mother. And I always saw these women smiling despite everything they'd gone through..." (19:28)
• She has found love again, which offered hope and joy after trauma:
  • "Life put a man in my path who has the same values, the same principles as me...We fell in love like teenagers when neither of us was expecting it. So you see, life always holds beautiful surprises." (21:26)

The Language of "Victim" vs. "Survivor"

• The conversation notes Pelicot’s insistence on not being pitied; she self-identifies as a survivor, not a victim:
  • "She said to me, strength is in my DNA. I am a survivor. And that is definitely, definitely what she is." (28:18)

Broader Issues: Internet, Pornography, and Societal Change

• The role of the Internet and extreme, illegal pornography is recognized as a significant, ongoing societal issue for parents and communities. (31:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gisèle Pelicot on betrayal:
  "I told myself that it was inconceivable that this man who shared my life could have committed these horrors. I told myself that my life was in ruins, that I had nothing left apart from my children. It was a descent into hell for me, but also for them." — Gisèle Pelicot (12:30)

• Gisèle Pelicot on shifting shame:
  "When I decided against a closed hearing, I wanted the shame to shift to the other side. I'd carried that shame for more than four years...Victims are being punished twice...Shame must be carried by the accused, not the victims." — Gisèle Pelicot (14:52)

• Letter from Queen Camilla (read by Victoria):
  "You have inspired women across the globe, and in so doing, you have created a powerful legacy that will change the narrative around shame forever." — Queen Camilla, as read by Victoria (19:48)

• Victoria Derbyshire on Pelicot’s strength:
  "I feel like you are one of the strongest women I have ever met. There is a life force in you. Where does that strength come from?" — Victoria (19:16)

• On love after trauma:
  "Life always holds beautiful surprises. It’s brought a lot of color into our..." — Gisèle Pelicot (21:26)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:20] Victoria Derbyshire discusses preparation for the interview and first impressions of Gisèle Pelicot.
• [04:57] How reading Pelicot’s memoir inspired both horror and hope.
• [06:11] Outpouring of support, including daily crowds and a royal letter.
• [07:55] Insights into the possible motives of the perpetrator.
• [09:40] The everyday nature of the accused men.
• [12:30] Gisèle Pelicot describes the emotional impact of her husband's crimes.
• [14:52] Pelicot’s decision to waive anonymity and her views on public trials.
• [16:45] Family fallout — impact on relationship with daughter Caroline.
• [19:28] Pelicot’s source of resilience; impact of strong women in her life.
• [21:26] Finding a new relationship and the hope it brings.
• [28:18] Pelicot’s rejection of pity; owning the identity of survivor.

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Tone and Language

The conversation maintains the gravity of Pelicot’s experiences, balancing empathy and admiration. The hosts and Victoria are sensitive but unflinching—highlighting both the horror of the crimes and the remarkable agency and dignity of Pelicot. The tone oscillates from somber reflection to inspiration, particularly when discussing Pelicot’s strength and the possibility of healing.

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Conclusion & Episode Value

This Newscast episode is a compelling and important exploration of resilience, agency, and the fight to reclaim dignity after unthinkable trauma. Through Pelicot's story, listeners gain insight into not only the details of a historic case but also the wider questions confronting victims, societies, and the justice system regarding shame, healing, and the language of survival.

The episode’s standout message: Even in the aftermath of unfathomable horror, the human capacity for hope and love endures—and sharing these stories publicly can help turn the tide of shame and empower other survivors.

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Where to Hear More

• Full video interview: Gisèle: The Newsnight Interview — available on iPlayer and BBC2.
• Additional support: For those affected by the topics discussed, resources are available via the BBC Action Line.

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For a deeper understanding, listeners and viewers are encouraged to watch the full televised interview, to experience the power of Pelicot's own voice and presence.

Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

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[BBC Newscast Narrator]

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[Paddy O'Connell]

Laura Today we're going to be talking about one of the most amazing women in the news for the last 25 years that I can ever. Well, that I can remember.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's right. Giselle Pellico, a name that will be familiar, I'm sure, to every newscaster. I think it is a name that not just was in the headlines, but became iconic to many people. She was the French woman who had the courage to tell her own most appalling, harrowing story in a courtroom in a quiet part of France over many weeks and many months. Victoria, our colleague, is going to tell us about her exclusive UK interview with Gisele Pellico, her extraordinary story, and also how she is trying to turn the horror of what happened to her into into a testament to actually how shame can be transferred. It's one of the powerful messages that she has said publicly and she said outside the courtroom, the shame should not belong to her. It should belong to the perpetrators.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Newscast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast from the BBC Fat boy sliver.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Giselle Pellico]

I was the tattletail in the classroom.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that daddy has.

[Chris Mason]

To sometimes use strong language next time.

[Victoria]

In musk I feel dulu with no salulu Take me down to Downing street.

[BBC Newscast Narrator]

Let'S go have a tour.

[Victoria]

Blimey.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Hello, it's Laura in the studio.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And newscasters, please be aware that some of the things that we're going to talk about with Victoria and her interview with Giselle Pellico are of course upsetting Harrowing. And as ever, we should say, there's tons of help and support out there, which you can find on the BBC Action Line website. There are all sorts of organizations that help with these kinds of dreadful issues that too many people have been victim to over the years.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So let's meet Victoria to hear more about what's happened with this encounter. Hello, Vic.

[Victoria]

Hi, Paddy. Hi, Laura. How are you?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Great to have you with us. So before we talk about what actually she says in the interview, I just wonder what was the experience of meeting her, you know, someone that even as journalists, we saw her image, we saw her walking into court with such dignity on many times. Just what was it like when you met Gisele Pellico?

[Victoria]

I was really apprehensive about meeting her. I knew a lot about the case, an awful lot of the detail of what she had been subjected to. I knew a lot about the accused, the 51 men who were convicted. I knew very little about her apart from some of the statements she made in court and that powerful plea, Laura, that you referenced at the beginning, that shame must change sides from the victim to the rapist. And that obviously was a conversation that resonated around the world. I knew that she was at the center of the largest rape trial in French history, a case that shocked France, that shocked all of us, actually. And I'd read her memoir four times and I was nervous about meeting her because I didn't know it wasn't one of those interviews where you have a briefing, conversation with the guest beforehand over the phone. I didn't know how open she was going to be about some really horrific and devastating experiences. And, yeah, I was in a small way stressed because I only have O level French and I'd been told that Madame Pellico has a little bit of English. And so I was desperately learning some French via my sister's best friend, who is half French, because I wanted to greet her in French. I wanted to say I'd read the book. I wanted to say how the book had left me feeling, and I wanted to tell her it was an honor to meet her. So that was a little bit of the background.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And just before we get into listening for ourselves, how did reading the book leave you feeling, Vic?

[Victoria]

I mean, it's obviously horrific. She experienced the most devastating betrayal by her husband of almost 50 years. And yet. And yet I felt this sense of hope by the end of it because she is determined not to be overwhelmed or defined by what has happened to her. And she has chosen not to be consumed by Hatred or anger. She has chosen to think life is short. I am still alive despite this horrific ordeal, and I am choosing the light, if you like. I felt uplifted by the end.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And she had huge support also by people right around the world. Just, you know, ordinary people seeing the story on the news, of course, but also some big names, including the Queen, reached out to her during the court case. Do you think she was surprised by the level of support and what role did that support that she received play in how she handled it?

[Victoria]

She was definitely surprised as soon as she let the world know who she was and opened up that trial, which was her profound decision, that's changed the course of the rest of her life. People started to gather outside that courtroom in Avignon, particularly women, and each day they would form a guard of honor. And when I think about this, it makes me like I can feel the hairs on the back of my neck and on my arms, like a guard of honor as she walked into that courtroom every day. And then applause. She left there each evening. I mean, that is just extraordinary. People wanted to support her and say thank you for what she was doing. And at the end of the trial, she told us that she received a letter from Her Majesty the Queen, completely unexpected. It really took her aback. And Camilla, who we know has done a lot of work for survivors of abuse, told her that she was courageous, that she was graceful, that she was dignified for the way she coped with what she had been subjected to, and that she had left this powerful legacy of shame, changing sides. And Gisele Pellico said she. She was honoured when she received that letter. She could not believe, as she put it, that the Queen of England knew about her case.

[Paddy O'Connell]

One of the truths that she's told you is that she looked into what could be the motivations for the crime committed on her. And she thinks it's because, possibly because she was a strong, independent woman and he had asked her to get involved in sex parties and she'd said no. And so almost, he took her strength and drugged her because she was so strong. Victoria, can you explain more about what she told you about that?

[Victoria]

Yes. She said that these are her words. She was an unbreakable woman. And for some reason, her husband, the love of her life, had wanted to break her. Now, it is in part because he'd. He'd wanted to do things which she rejected, and she made that very clear. It is in part because he was starting to spend a lot of time on the Internet and he ended up in the darkest Corners on the most horrific forums. One was called without her knowledge, for example. And he started to talk to other men and learn about how you could drug somebody and, you know, chemically make them submit. And her view is that because she said no in life to his fantasies, that he found a way of making her submit to what he wanted to do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's just jaw droppingly awful.

[Victoria]

I mean, it's on. It's unbelievable. It is unbelievable that anybody could do that to anybody else. And it's unbelievable that most of the accused pleaded not guilty even though her husband had filmed all the rapes. So she had damning evidence, which most women in rape trials do not have. And yet still they were saying, no, I didn't rape her because her husband was there. So that was the consent. It was just unreal.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And what was her attitude to those other men? Obviously the, a primary hideous surprise in her that the love of her life would do that to her. But did she tell you about her attitude to the other men who were involved?

[Victoria]

She, she couldn't believe that fathers, husbands, grandfathers, people who went about their daily lives as shop workers and IT specialists and volunteer firefighters and, you know, truck drivers would, in the dead of night go into someone's home and rape a clearly lifeless woman and then the next morning go about their lives. It is actually unbelievable.

[Paddy O'Connell]

One of the things that struck me as I, as I saw the coverage as it unfolded is once she'd taken the decision to give her name to the world, I, I thought it was even more important to know the names of the perpetrators, their lives, their jobs. They don't have the right to that privacy. And I thought you've, you've touched on it there. We need to know what those men are like because in a way, unfortunately, they appear to be everyone. Everyone is covered. Of course they aren't, because obviously they are criminals who've taken part in this. But their life stories are just so mundane and so ordinary. That's one of the things that I took. Yeah, took from it. And I'm hearing you say yes. One of the things I wanted to, what we both wanted to ask you about is from this courtroom location where we've heard about her first, you chose for the TV an absolutely, well, I suppose a beautiful spiritual place almost to do the interview.

[Victoria]

Yes. We wanted the location to be obviously in France. Madame Pellicot used to live in Paris. When she was younger, her and her husband moved to the south of France to live out the rest of their days, as she put it, to retire in Provence. But they spent much of their life in Paris. And her children and grandchildren still live around Paris. So she loves the capital and the building, the setting. The Hotel de Ville in Paris is absolutely stunning. I mean, and we felt it was fitting for a petite, elegant woman who made it clear in her memoir that she would get up every day before her trial and she would dress elegantly and she would put her makeup on because she wanted to show to the world that she was strong. And so we felt that this was fitting. And when she arrived, she told us how beautiful this. This building was, how stunning the room was, and that she felt comfortable there.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Let's then hear your conversation, or part of her conversation with you, Victoria. And she starts by telling you about the impact that her husband's crimes had on her.

[Giselle Pellico]

I told myself that it was inconceivable that this man who shared my life could have committed these horrors. I told myself that my life was in ruins, that I had nothing left apart from my children. It was a descent into hell for me, but also for them. Our family was totally destroyed. We were crushed by the horror.

[Victoria]

You were actually angry with yourself that you hadn't noticed anything in the nine years, at least, that he was drugging you with his own anxiety and insomnia, medication poisoning your glass of wine or your food in the evening. Why were you angry with yourself?

[Giselle Pellico]

Because I didn't realize anything. I saw nothing. I think it was right at the beginning when he started drugging me. In fact, I didn't remember what I'd done the day before. So I said to him, you're not drugging me, by any chance? And when I saw him break down in tears, I immediately thought there might be something wrong because I have an excellent memory. I really remember a lot of things. And there I couldn't remember at all what I'd done the day before.

[Victoria]

You write he had wanted to force an insubmissive woman into submission. In the end, you say you were punished for saying no to his fantasies. Is that an explanation for what he did?

[Giselle Pellico]

I think so, because he would have liked me to participate in swinging sessions. And I always refuse because I have a sense of modesty. Going to that kind of club was out of the question. So I think he found a way around it by subduing me. That's what he said. I subdued an unbreakable woman. Because in my marriage, I wasn't at all a submissive woman. I always worked. He always shared the housework. We were always quite a modern couple. Even though we got married in the 1970s. I think he'd found his way around it and he satisfied his fantasies by subduing me chemically.

[Victoria]

You made the remarkable decision to let the world know who you are, to waive your legal right to anonymity, which meant the trial of all these men would be opened up to the public and the media and everyone would know who you were. Why did you choose to do that?

[Giselle Pellico]

When I decided against a closed hearing, I wanted the shame to shift to the other side. I'd carried that shame for more than four years. That self inflicted pain I felt meant victims were being punished twice. And I thought that if I was able to overcome it, all victims could do it too. I'm sure of it. They must not lose confidence. They must dare to choose a public trial. It's very important. It's also a path to self recovery. Shame must be carried by the accused, not the victims.

[Victoria]

There has been an outpouring of support for you from people around the world. Let's talk more about those people, particularly women, who began to wait for you each day at the court and formed a guard of honour as you walked into the building and then applauded you as you left the building. How did that make you feel?

[Giselle Pellico]

Their presence outside brought calm in the face of what was happening inside the courtroom. They gave me incredible strength and I think my story echoed their suffering. They identified with my story. The women I met were often victims who'd never dared to file a complaint. And quite a few told me they would now have the strength to do so.

[Victoria]

And you wrote that the crowd saved you.

[Giselle Pellico]

You go through hell in a courtroom, you're really humiliated. Nothing has changed much. In fact, victims are still made to feel like the guilty party. So yes, when I came out, the applause gave me enormous strength. And seeing my name plastered on the walls of Avignon, this name as a banner, my story as an example. It gave me a lot of strength. Alone, it would have been very difficult. I think.

[Victoria]

What Dominique Pellico did has had a devastating impact on your whole family. The police found two photos of your daughter Caroline on his computer, asleep in bed, taken by him. Caroline believes her father abused her. He said he hasn't. Can I ask what you believe?

[Giselle Pellico]

What Caroline is going through is extremely painful. And I'm devastated by her suffering. There's the incestuous way he looks at his daughter, of course, which is deeply troubling. And there's also this doubt that condemns her to perpetual torment. She filed a complaint against her father. I hope she gets answers for Now I support her. We've reconnected recently. She called me just before Christmas. But for my daughter, it's a descent into hell as well.

[Victoria]

And it put immense strain on your relationship between you and your daughter. Can I ask how you are?

[Giselle Pellico]

It's wrong to think that such a tragedy brings a family together. It took us a long time to rebuild ourselves. Everyone rebuilds as best they can. It took Caroline time because she's filled with hatred and anger, feelings I don't have. I have neither hatred nor anger. I felt betrayed and outraged by Monsieur Pelicaut, but that's just how I am. That's how my DNA works. Caroline is different. And it's true that each of us needed time to find our own path. Today, we're trying to bring each other peace. And I hope we're on the right road to healing, all of us together.

[Victoria]

Monsieur Pellicot was given the maximum jail sentence for what he did to you and for bringing men into your home and your daughter's home to rape you. 20 years in jail. Will you ever see him again?

[Giselle Pellico]

I haven't had the opportunity to go and see him and I hope to do so. That's also part of my way of rebuilding myself. I wasn't able to speak directly with Monsieur Pelicaut during the whole trial. I always address the presiding judge. So I think I need to go and see him to get answers. I don't know if I'll get them, but face to face, I hope he'll be able to give me the answers I'm still seeking.

[Victoria]

So you will go and see him in prison and ask him the questions that you want to ask?

[Giselle Pellico]

Yes, I hope to do that.

[Victoria]

Madame Pellico, if I may, I feel like you are one of the strongest women I have ever met. There is a life force in you. Where does that strength come from?

[Giselle Pellico]

I think it's in my DNA. I was born like this because I experienced tragedies very young, through my grandmother, through my mother. And I always saw these women smiling despite everything they'd gone through. So I think it was passed on to me from a very young age. And I've built myself like that, always standing upright and dignified.

[Victoria]

I know that you received a personal letter from Her Majesty the Queen, Queen Camilla. And both she and you have given us permission to share the words with our audience. I'm going to read the words, if that's okay with you. Dear Madame Pellico, Having followed the trial for the past 15 weeks, I very much wanted to write to express my heartfelt admiration for the courage, grace and dignity with which you have faced the horrific crimes committed against you. You have inspired women across the globe, and in so doing, you have created a powerful legacy that will change the narrative around Shane forever. Thank you for all that you have done. You are much in my thoughts and prayers, and I do hope you will now be able to rest and recover from this devastating ordeal. Camilla R. What did it mean to you to receive that letter?

[Giselle Pellico]

It was an honor for me to receive this letter. I wasn't expecting it at all and I was overwhelmed that this queen could send me this letter. So I was surprised because although it's true, my words touched the whole world. I wasn't expecting a letter from the Court of England. I felt moved and very honored that she'd become aware of what had happened to me. I'm grateful to her.

[Victoria]

You say you have found love again. Some people may be surprised by that.

[Giselle Pellico]

I've always been focused on other people, on the future. I didn't think at all about falling in love or even wanting to. But life put a man in my path who has the same values, the same principles as me and who's also been through many ordeals in his life. And we had this stroke of luck. We fell in love like teenagers when neither of us was expecting it. So you see, life always holds beautiful surprises. It's brought a lot of color into our.

[BBC Newscast Narrator 2]

If you can't keep up with all the Epstein news, you're not alone. This week, the files have nearly, but not quite brought down a British prime minister. There have been allegations that Epstein was a spy and surprising countries have been drawn into the scandal. From Norway to Poland to Israel to France. It's a lot. So we're recapping all the main developments and making sense of them. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Again, as Laura reminded us at the top of our podcast on BBC.co.uk Actionline is material that might be useful to people who listen to that and think, how can I react? What do I do now? But in my office, Vic, where I work, one of the youngest women I work with of reading all of your material that you've, you've, you've given us today with Giselle. That is exactly the bit she wanted to talk to me about, that she has found love again.

[Victoria]

And I met her new partner, he's a widower called Jean Luc. He was there through the interview, watching discreetly by at the side and they are in love. I mean, she says we fell in love like teenagers. I could see the kindness between them. I could see a sparkle between them. I had some really good chats with him because they both love dogs. Madame Pellico had a bulldog called Lancome who sadly died in December. But when she met Jean Loup, he also has a bulldog called Zoe. I was telling him about my cocker spaniels and he is a lovely man. And you know, he neither expected to fall in love again at their age. And they have and they're happy and that was a joy to witness that.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Someone'S found happiness after such horror in their own life. What about the rest of the family though, Victoria? Because we know, as Patti's already mentioned, there is a suggestion that there were crimes against his daughter. And it has been incredibly hard, we've read, for Giselle and her daughter Caroline to move forward after what happened. What did you get a sense of their family relationships being like now?

[Victoria]

Well, she was absolutely clear that her children, her three grown up children finding out that their father had done this to their mother decimated them all. They were devastated. They. They threw out belongings from their childhood from the family home. They ripped up photographs. They wanted to erase their father from their lives. Gisele Pellico did not want to erase the 50 years she had spent with her husband because as she said, if I did that, it would be like I was dead for 50 years. But she absolutely understood her children's reaction. Now, on Dominique Pellico's laptop, there were two photographs of Caroline, the middle daughter, asleep in her underwear in her bedroom. And Caroline is convinced that her father abused her. Pellico, for what it's worth, said he hasn't. Madame Pellico herself does not know. And that has put an immense strain on mother and daughter relationship. In the court case, Caroline said she felt like the forgotten victim. However, Giselle Pellico told me that they are healing. That's the word she used, they are healing. They are taking it step by step as they look towards the future.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It takes me to the very heart of the vocabulary we use. Victim. She is choosing the light to use your words. She has found love again. She is even opening open to the idea of meeting him to find out in prison what he's done. What is the lesson we've by bringing this news to the world? There's something about the strength of a person. There's something about choosing agency. Vic and I know both you and Laura have brought interviews with remarkable people and we're always trying to think, well, what Can I do with this information? Have you been in some way changed by meeting her? Have you got. Did you feel a power of humanity from her?

[Victoria]

I did. I really did. I mean, what she said was, you know, you never know how much strength you have inside you when you are facing the most challenging of circumstances. She says, you know, she's a normal French woman. She, you know, she worked for edf, she was a mum, she's a grandma. She's normal. And she found these reserves, this pool of strength in order to help her get through that. And she said, you know, we've probably. We've probably all got that in us. We just don't realize it. And, you know, none of us will be tested, let's hope, in the way she has been. And she also, this. This decision, this positive decision she has made, not to be consumed by hatred and anger, is. Is. Is her taking control over this situation so that she can find happiness again.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think it's a really interesting illustration of why there's often a debate when you talk about these issues, about whether or not people who've been. Who've suffered at the hands of terrible abusers sometimes want to be called survivors rather than victims. And there's a. What can be a very heated debate, actually, about which terminology to use. But what you've told us about your conversation with Giselle Pellico, she has someone who has chosen to work, to walk towards the light, someone who is not just surviving, but has found happiness again. And I think it's a really good illustration of why that's often a conversation that's sort of live and well. And sometimes people who've had these terrible things say, don't call me a victim. Someone did a terrible thing to me, but I choose to go forward with my life. I. I wonder if it does. Giselle Pellico, does she. What would she say she is? Or maybe she just say, I am Madame Pelico and here's my story. But did you. Did. Does she describe herself in any. In either of those terms?

[Victoria]

She. In her book, she writes, she does not want to be pitied. She loved the support that she has received and continues to receive. She absolutely is so grateful for that. But she said to me, strength is in my DNA. I am a survivor. And that is definitely, definitely what she is.

[Paddy O'Connell]

She lost her mum when she was 9, I read, and she had a very powerful grandmother, and she's paying tribute to the strong women in her life. And that's why I think. I suppose I feel very glad in a Way to say that I don't pity her, actually. And so I'm glad when you say that she doesn't want me to. I don't. I feel absolutely inspired by what you've brought us as a. As a. As a message. And I suppose that's why she's speaking.

[Victoria]

Yeah, absolutely. She wants to get the message through to people that there is always hope and that, yeah, you know, if she can do it, we can, too.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So, Vic, where can people watch this full interview? We've played a chunk of it on the podcast here for your listening. But where can people watch the full version of the interview?

[Victoria]

It's on iplayer right now. It's called Gisele the Newsnight Interview, and it's on BBC2 at 10 o' clock tomorrow night, Sunday 15th February. I am going to actually urge people to watch it. And this is the reason why, obviously, for newscast and for Radio 4 and 5 live and so on, because it's Radio Audio, we have used a translator to translate her words into English. When you watch the program, she speaks in French, so they are her words. And, and we use subtitles. And I, I do feel that is really important.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's interesting, because the medium. Well, sometimes people say the medium is the message, but it is very different to listen to things and watch things and subtitles or simultaneous translation. When you have somebody giving the words, giving their own accurate translation, but in a different voice, that is a different experience. And of course, also those visual cues, how she reacts to your questions, her facial expressions, all of those things. And I can't wait to watch it in full.

[Paddy O'Connell]

In that way, it raises so many questions that link the news together, because it's an exceptional case. But guess what? Somewhere in there is the Internet. Somewhere in there is porn. Somewhere in there is men talking together about what they're going to do to women. And some of those issues crop up in your careers, Laura and Vic, the testimonies and the interviews you bring, both of you, you're known for this. It's just that there are commonalities there. And I wonder if when we'll come back to this, Vic, Laura, perhaps we'll come back to some of these issues in the future.

[Victoria]

We will definitely come back to these issues. It wasn't just pornography that Dominique Pellico was accessing on the Internet. It was extreme pornography. It was illegal pornography. And it is one of the issues of our times. And we know that, you know, anyone listening now who's got children, we know that they have access on their smartphones to some really horrific stuff. It's a huge, huge issue. As you know, Laura, from all the interviews you do on your program, this is a live issue for parents around the world when it comes to their kids and social media. And I don't know how long it's going to be before we can stop this access.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Vic, thank you so much for speaking to us today. It's been really interesting to hear not just a section of the interview, but also about how you went about it and what it was like for you two to be in the room and giving us more of an illustration of that experience of meeting that extraordinary woman. So thanks so much for being with us today.

[Victoria]

Thank you both. Thank you.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So that really will be worth a watch. It is on iplayer now and the full version is on BBC2 tomorrow. But you'll be on Radio 4 tomorrow morning and I'll be on BBC1 tomorrow morning. What are you doing tomorrow, Paddy?

[Paddy O'Connell]

So we're wondering if there was a rush of blood to the head. We're speaking to a conservative who feels that the race to depose the Labour PM is something that got into the political class and the chattering class, they got a habit for it doesn't mean he's not going to be ditched in a few months. But just reflecting on that, that sort of canter towards the deposing of the pm.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, interesting. Well, a few of my more wry sources might I say this week have somewhat enjoyed the suggestion that we've heard from some of Keir Starmer's backers that, ah, yes, this was all a media obsession. When of course, the media is reporting what people tell them. However, there we are. It's an interesting debate nonetheless. Is it an unhealthy habit that we have reached for as a country, saying when things are wrong, like the big red chair on Graham Norton, Ditch, ditch the pm, chuck him over the edge rather than confront other deeper seated problems. And actually it's an interesting debate about whether or not there is too soon. People are reaching for the big giant red hand.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Are you available as a guest, Bernie Charles, tomorrow morning? Because we would like that sort of. We would like it explained as well as that. And what have you got to get.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Graham Norton on in the chair? Then he should decide.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What have you got on the telly?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We are speaking to Yvette Cooper, the Foreign Secretary, who is at the Munich Security Conference. Huge, big gathering of big high hegins around the world. The Prime Minister's there today. President Zelensky is there today. Some of President Trump's representatives on Earth. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is there for the US So there's obviously a lot of focus on Ukraine, on the shifting power between on either sides of the Atlantic. And the Prime Minister making quite a blood curdling attack on some of his political opponents in his speech this morning, more or less reading between the lines, suggesting that if you vote for reform or the Greens, then you're soft on NATO and you're somehow advancing us towards, towards a situation where the UK Would not be safe. So that's quite a political accusation coming from Keir Starmer's lips. So we're talking about that. Yvette Cooper's opposite number, Priti Patel, the Conservative shadow Foreign Secretary, will be joining us too. And we have got an interview with Dr. Hillary Cass, who was the author of that landmark report into complicated and important issues around young people and kids and treatment for trans young people.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We're also doing the people who are switching from white collar to blue collar jobs.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, okay.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Accounting, who's giving it up to become a plumber.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Not a bad show.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I mean, I hope it starts his conversation actually when we bring it. I'll bring comments back to you in the future here.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Is he going to bring a spanner or a plunger?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Plunger. I just hope it's a plunger. There's a Dalek in the reception as.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well as Graham Norton's red chair. Actually, I don't know what they were. If that's in Broadcasting House, maybe I should go and sit in it. Or you can chuck me over the edge and we'll see what happens. Anyway, we'll see what happens tomorrow.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So we'll be back with the Sunday newscast, but thank you very much for listening today.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Thank you very much. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's, it's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.

[Victoria]

Bye.

[BBC Newscast Narrator]

How are weight loss drugs changing our world? In the span of just a few short years, weight loss jabs have become so prevalent in our culture that they've transformed the way we live, move and eat. Restaurants are serving smaller portions, and there's more protein rich food in grocery stores. Does all of this speak to a renewed obsession with skinniness? Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.