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- [00:00]
Andy Burnham
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Chris Mason
If you are currently overpaying on software to run your business, remember this number 10,000. That's the number of new businesses that join Odoo per month. Join odoo today@odoo.com. that's odoo.com when I got a new car, I thought my insurance premium would increase and empty my bank account. Like if Fatween won the lottery. I've invested most of my winnings in chicken tenders because they're bomb. But bro, I bought a house and it's sick, bro. I'm thinking the floor is going to be all trampoline, bro, with the helipad on the roof. The contractor said it's structurally unsound. They're just being babies. But switching to GEICO saved me hundreds. So my bank account is safe. It feels good to say some hard earned cash. It feels good to geico.
- [00:53]
James Landale
So, Chris, Andy Barnum has given what is basically the first big speech of his leadership campaign since returning to Westminster, and he's given it at the People's History Muse in Manchester. And you were there. Have you ever been to a political event quite like this one?
- [01:09]
Chris Mason
Well, I mean, the, the geography of it, James, was really quite something because not just Manchester. So if you like Andy Burnham's political home and the basis for many of the ideas that he was fleshing out into this in the speech, which we'll get onto, but in particular the People's History Museum, which he feels again, is effectively a case study in his political creed. He even made a joke about how one of his jackets is actually on show in a glass cabinet upstairs. I think it might be the jacket he was wearing when he was in a bit of a spat with the Boris Johnson government during the pandemic around regional Covid restrictions and the implications, etc. Etc. So this was a, this was a speech in its geography as well as in, in its. In those who attended it, in terms of party activists, etc. That kind of oozed Andy Burnham and
- [02:01]
James Landale
he started it by asking the audience,
- [02:03]
Andy Burnham
are you ready for this?
- [02:06]
James Landale
But the question we're going to ask here on Newscast is more to the point. Is Andy Burnham ready for this? So let's look at what we learned about his plan for government and what we didn't learn on this episode of
- [02:16]
Chris Mason
Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. I will resign as leader of the Labour Party. And what will you do? Stare at a wall. Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [02:28]
Andy Burnham
You know, I like my buses I'll come onto them.
- [02:30]
Chris Mason
It's supposed to me as a doctor.
- [02:32]
James Landale
Ooh la la.
- [02:33]
Faisal Islam
Thinking about it like a panto helped.
- [02:35]
Chris Mason
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:37]
James Landale
Hello, it's James in the newscast studio.
- [02:39]
Chris Mason
And it's Chris in the newscast studio, just back from Manchester.
- [02:42]
Faisal Islam
And it's Faisal in the newscast studio.
- [02:44]
James Landale
All of us here in the newscast studio. Chris, you were there at this speech and you've talked about the geographical setting of it in terms of politics. What message is he trying to get over here beyond what you were just saying a second ago?
- [03:02]
Chris Mason
So a whole bundle load of policy ideas that we can get into. But firstly, an observation that for me, just oozed out of the room when you were standing there at the side, as I always do for these speeches, leaning against a wall. Here was a politician reveling in being on the public stage and reveling in setting out a political vision. And there'll be loads of Labour MPs, whatever their view of the downfall of Keir Starmer, or indeed of Andy Burnham, that see a contrast on both of those points with the Prime Minister that Andy Burnham is likely to replace in three weeks time, that here was someone comfortable on the public stage, enjoying it, yes, for its own sake, but enjoying it because it offers a platform for political argument and then more than comfortable to do the vision thing in terms of his politics and, if you like, his political creed. A couple of years ago, the. The brilliant authors Patrick McGuire and Gabriel Pogrund, in their book about the Keir Starmer years, quoted Keir Starmer as saying, there is no such thing as Starmerism and there never will be Keir Starmer wearing that as a badge of pride. His argument was that he was a pragmatist. He would seek what would work. He wasn't defined, if you like, by an ideology or a political creed. Here was Andy Burnham today saying, this is what I'm all about. This is the city region that has shaped me politically since I left Westminster as a Cabinet minister, et cetera, et cetera, 10 or so years ago. And this is the vision that I want to bring to the UK if I become Prime Minister.
- [04:35]
James Landale
And he calls that Manchesterism, this vision. Before we get into that, though, how was it? How did he seem to you, Chris? Nervous, excited. You know, it was a lot of chat about his clothing to begin with.
- [04:46]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
- [04:46]
James Landale
But I mean, including that he bought new shorts because his shorts were indecently short, which I thought was indecently. Too much detail, but whatever.
- [04:53]
Chris Mason
So that was a reference to a snap taken of him leaving his home during the by election campaign where he did a particular sort of 90 degree turn out of the garden gate to run down the road. And as he did that theater of the mind and all that, his very short shorts climbed a little bit further north up his thigh, revealing more than he acknowledges now is decent. And so he said that he was presented with two options. One was a change in the decency laws. The other was to buy some new shorts. And he has bought some new shorts on the wider clothing point because this has been on the wider clothing point because that bit is the sort of, if you like the daft bit around the shorts. The wider clothing point I think is less, if you like daft or ephemeral because it is part of his political brand. Back to that point about the jacket in the glass cabinet in the museum. Part of his political brand in his time as Manchester, as the mayor of Greater Manchester has been to try and not look like a typical politician. In other words, not wearing a suit and tie the whole time. So what was he wearing today? I think it was a black T shirt, although he took Kerry Baden Dr. Tuscany last week saying it was dark blue, his T shirts. But anyway, wearing a T shirt with a jacket over the top whenever he appears in the House of Commons, of course, because there are rules around these things, he is more. He is more formally dressed. But the way he chooses to dress and has chosen to dress in public in the last 10 years is, is part of, if you like the, the brand.
- [06:25]
James Landale
Burnham, fashion aside, what did you make of him? Or fashion included, if you prefer. Faisal?
- [06:30]
Faisal Islam
Well, I mean I've. I've tracked a bit of the, the Manchester story kind of in my. Actually my own first ever piece was about Manchester's regeneration way before Andy Burnham in the 1997. 1998.
- [06:41]
James Landale
Your first piece of reporting, first piece
- [06:43]
Faisal Islam
of the report that got my apprenticeship in journalism. Yeah. Was, was.
- [06:47]
James Landale
I know, I know. As we've discussed newscast how after the
- [06:53]
Faisal Islam
IRA bomb 30 years ago, like the key insight was that a group of the great and good at the top of the council decided not to rebuild that part of the Arndale center and the regeneration started from there. Now what does that show you? It shows you that Manchester has been built up as a kind of one. Well, the city of Manchester at least as a kind of one party state where they've been a mainly labor councilors and labor council, but able to run things to a sort of long term strategic agenda run by a Fairly tight group of people who've been able to ram through a change catalyzed by the RA bomb, catalyzed with some public money, but in a way that I think some people don't really get, you know, and it doesn't quite fit in to the sort of left, right spectrum that people like to apply. And I did. I asked him about this directly when I spoke to him about, you know, earlier this year. Like, is it. Is it statist? Is it. You know, what is this Manchester way, as he was calling it then, now, Manchesterism? And he said it wasn't. It wasn't left. All right? And I think that is true in many ways. Yes, it requires some strategy and planning, but it's all private sector kind of construction, building those skyscrapers. It's like sovereign wealth funds from Abu Dhabi, famously, obviously buying Manchester city and rebuilding a district. So it's quite difficult. Now, how applicable that is to the rest of the country is very reasonable question. But I think to sort of circle back to what Chris just said. You look at him, and this is a guy who genuinely believes what he said. He believes it and he's excited about the subject of devolution, which, let's be honest, if you were to sort of go to a focus group and try and pick the five top items, subjects with which to sell your vision of the nation to, I'm not sure devolution would appear in that top five, but he just kind of went for it.
- [08:53]
James Landale
Well, just quickly before this, before you chip in, Chris, because this might inform what you're gonna say. Newscaster Jane in Harrogate has been in touch who says devolution seems to be the word of the day with Andy Burnham. What does it mean? How would it work? What other cities will be involved? How much extra will it cost the taxpayer? Many thanks and the show. Thank you very much indeed. Jane feel way more informed, which scares and impresses the neighbors. That's good. Thanks, Jane. I mean, that's interesting. She's right, isn't it? Devolution was the word of the day.
- [09:21]
Chris Mason
It was the word of the day. And a lot of Jane's questions are absolutely worth asking, and we don't have a lot of the answers to them yet. We have some of the answers, but not a lot of them. Picking up on Faisal's point, what's fascinating is that the central pitch from Andy Burnham in his. What was his team regard as the sort of foundational text of his approach to governing was about processes. It was about structures of government. Now, I'M not saying for a moment they don't matter. They can absolutely shape outcomes and people will have views about at what level it is most appropriate to be governed from, because that's the essence of the devolution question where should power lie? But in the end, it is a process question and what will really matter is the outcome it generates. Now, Adi Burnham can make an argument, and there's a separate argument, about the extent to which he can take credit for it, or others should, in terms of the transformation of Manchester over the last generation. But in the end, as Prime Minister, as, as Mayor or in any other role, it'll be the outcomes that he is, that he is, in the end held to account for or, or can stand, stand on at an election with a. With a record or not behind it.
- [10:30]
James Landale
Well, for what it's worth, the dictionary definition, according to Chambers of devolution is a handing over of powers, or the delegation of certain powers to regional governments by a central government, which I suppose is what we're talking about here. So there we go. Let's just listen to Andy Burnham himself, because he kicked off the main bulk of this speech with what was a pretty stinging diagnosis of how the country has been run in recent years. So let's. Let's just have a listen to that.
- [10:57]
Andy Burnham
After 10 years of political turbulence since Brexit and 20 years of falling living standards since the 2008 financial crash, Westminster hasn't been working for people and it hasn't been working for a very long time. In fact, it is broken. And as a result, the country isn't where it should be. It is stuck in a rut. And clearly we can't go on like this. My generation of politicians, including me, must take responsibility. We haven't been good enough. But instead of being honest about that, the parties have continued with politics as usual. Finger pointing, point scoring. Now, that might matter less in a world where people's lives are getting better, but when they are not, it is dangerous and destructive of what remains of public trust in politics. We cannot go through another decade like the one we have just had.
- [12:10]
James Landale
What do you make either of you of that as a piece of analysis of where we are?
- [12:15]
Faisal Islam
Well, I mean, what's interesting is we've heard of Broken Britain before, haven't we? And there's been many debates about that. But he's saying something slightly different. He's saying Westminster is broken.
- [12:25]
James Landale
And Whitehall.
- [12:26]
Faisal Islam
And Whitehall.
- [12:27]
James Landale
The point being, broken to maybe. I mean, lots of newscasters will get that distinction. But Westminster being, broadly speaking, the politicians And Whitehall, broadly speaking, being the civil servants. Is that roughly fair?
- [12:37]
Faisal Islam
Yeah. And. And so the. To go beyond the process, these sorts of more devolved decision making in regions is very normal across Europe. And that is why when people lucky enough to go on holiday to places like Barcelona or Bilbao or any German city, that's not Berlin, it is normal to see a Met system, an integrated transport system, you know, sort of slightly more functional public services that seem like they're planned. If the population goes up, they plan school places to go up a little bit more and, you know, just sort of things that. That is what. That is what he's talking about. And, you know, to turn all that round quickly is quite something. Is devolution the only reason or is there also an issue about funding of public services there that he didn't address at this point? There are many issues that go into that, but I think the idea that he is defining what the problem is, both economically but also politically, so that he can fill the space of what the solutions are and what we talk about. You know, you see, like Kirstama didn't do that. And frankly, and discussed, did Nigel Farage decide what political space was and what time was spent, what problems were to be addressed? He's sort of getting in there and saying, no, no, this is the problem and I'm going to spend all my time talking about it. And by the way, so are you.
- [14:08]
Chris Mason
And that comparison with Germany in particular. Andy Burnham and Steve Rotherham, who's the labor mayor of the Liverpool city region, wrote a book together a couple of years ago fleshing out this. This diagnosis. Two former Labour MPs who left Westminster said they were fed up with Westminster, went on to run their home city regions and then wrote a book, and which lots of us have been re. Devouring in the last. In the last couple of weeks. And one of the chapters gets right into the German model, and I might be putting the umlaut and therefore the pronunciation in the wrong place here, but the Landers, or the. The regions of Germany set out constitutionally, as Faisal was fleshing out, to have mechanisms that ensure there isn't a concentration of power only in the capital, only in particular metropolitan centers. And they talk proudly about inviting a German regional politician to a convention of the north that they set up a couple of years ago to hear that argument out. But that's the vision to get from where we are now, just in terms of the piping, the plumbing of the UK constitutional settlement, or in this instance the English.
- [15:23]
James Landale
I was going to say that yeah,
- [15:25]
Chris Mason
the English constitutional settlement is one heck of a journey when you're three years out, maximum. From Andy Burnham's perspective, if he comes Prime Minister, from a general election, I
- [15:36]
James Landale
mean, from my perspective, living in Scotland, I have to say we've had quite significant devolution in these Highlands since 1990, in terms of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Senate and in a slightly separate process, obviously, but the Northern Ireland assembly at Stormont. So we'll maybe come on to that
- [15:58]
Chris Mason
and we'll pick a bit of that.
- [15:59]
James Landale
Two things intersect, but before that just sticking with England. And this isn't just about England, but perhaps the most significant thing that Andy Burnham today announced in terms of process, and to be fair, there were a sprinkling of policy as well, which we'll also come on to, but maybe the most significant process thing was this idea of a new number 10 in the north. Let's listen to him describe that.
- [16:22]
Andy Burnham
The job of number 10 north will be to make power flow into the Midlands, into the Southwest, into the east of England and yes, into London, as I said before, as much as into the Northeast, Yorkshire and the Humber. And here in the Northwest, it will be about offering new opportunities to extend evolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland by taking power deeper down. The people of Dundee and Bangor feel just as distant from Holyrood and the Senate as they do from Westminster. Now, get this, number 10 north will be the nerve centre of a rewired Britain.
- [17:06]
James Landale
Just again, just not to pick on all the Scottish aspects. But I'm not sure that it is entirely fair to say that the people of Dundee as a whole feel closer, are farther away from, as far away from Hollywood as they do from Westminster. But leaving that to one side, I think you find quite a lot of people in Dundee, which is a pro independence, you know, city that voted for Scottish independence. A pretty staunch Scottish National Party city in part, anyway. I'm not sure that's true, to be honest, that people there feel as distant from Hollywood as they do from Westminster. I'm not saying people don't think there are problems with Hollywood or problems with public service in Scotland. And actually that's an interesting question. In the context of devolution, is the solution? Because if it were the solution, then Scotland should be the land of happiness and milk and honey. And there's definitely issues in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland as well as there are in England.
- [17:55]
Chris Mason
I. I was struck today listening to the argument and observing who was in the audience. So the audience was chocker with Labour mayors, directly elected mayors from English cities and regions that whilst Andy Burnham did talk about Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, much of his devolved argument was looked at through an English prism. I don't think we should be that surprised by that. The guy's been a mayor of English city region for the best part of the last decade, incidentally. Trivial point, but I'll mention it anyway. It was brought to my attention today just about this number 10 north idea, that there is a Downing street industrial estate in Manchester. There are. There are only, though, eight units on it, so there's no number nine and there's no number 10.
- [18:40]
James Landale
That's funny. Chris, do you know anything more about what this means, number 10 north, and how it would work? And would the Prime Minister be based there some or all of the time? Do we have any details?
- [18:49]
Chris Mason
We're getting a bit of a sense of it. So, on the one hand, it is not unique for a British government to have offices that are not in London. There are aspects of the Civil Service scattered all around the uk. And the last government set up a Treasury campus in Darlington in the northeast of England, not a million miles away from Rishi Sunak's seat in Parliament, in Richmond and northallerton. I think the difference with Andy Burnham's idea is that it would be pointedly more political. So we hear that he may have a Deputy Chief of Staff who is based in that number 10 north, and that the mission of the number 10 north would be specifically around the devolution agenda. Now, a cynic might say you've got your Chief of staff in London and your deputy Chief of staff in Manchester, so you can sort of, you know. But then ultimately, of course, London is the seat of power of the government, is where the Prime Minister spends a huge amount of their. Of their time. So that. That seems to be an element of how the, if you like, the. The wiring of Andy Burnham's vision for government would be. And then we can get on to some of the policy ideas that he hopes that that office could turn around.
- [19:59]
Faisal Islam
But this is where the detail really matters.
- [20:01]
Chris Mason
Right.
- [20:01]
Faisal Islam
Like when you look at the international comparisons here, regions, states in America use the tax system to attract business, attract employment, attract jobs. They. Is this is about spending? Is it about borrowing? You know, this is another key area. If a certain locality, a city region, is fast growing, its population is growing. And this is an example. I think this is a classic example in Manchester, the city of Manchester is. Its population was 500 in the 1980s, living in the central water.
- [20:35]
James Landale
That's amazing.
- [20:36]
Faisal Islam
Yeah, yeah. Well, it was completely depopulated. So they've repopulated.
- [20:39]
Chris Mason
And what's the figure now?
- [20:39]
Faisal Islam
It's up to about. It's over a hundred thousand, on course to a quarter of a million because there's so many. So just think about that for a minute. Just think about what mansterism is. The. In Manchester, they're boasting about repopulating, increasing the population of Manchester because of why it brings a tax base. It's real, it's growth. Now, just let's dial back again to the sorts of conversations we have at the Westminster level about population, about migration, about should it go up, should it be the same? It's quite a different perspective on all of this. So what are regions around the world that manage to compete? If you have this population growth, you want a decent transport system to accommodate that very king at the seams. So you would borrow money based on the fact that your population is growing, full of nice graduate jobs serving universities that are in your cities and they're trying to keep graduates in these cities. This is the point. But you want to invest in a significant transport system, you borrow money. Okay, now, is he going to allow all these city regions to borrow money? That's ultimately devolution. But hang on a minute, you just said you're keeping to the fiscal rules, you're going to have strict controls on borrowing. So you. But you're going to allow what all the Labor Councils, what about the Reform councils, are they going to allow to go. Allowed to go and buy 10 billion for a new tram system or something?
- [21:57]
Chris Mason
And this is where the detail is so, so key. But then also how devolution feels, because one of the criticisms or the critiques that you hear of the current devolved model, either it's an English regional level or at a national nations level within the uk, is that the current formula creates a temptation for grievance, so that those outside of Westminster, all too often their easiest political crutch, if you like, is to blame Westminster. Now, the argument goes that that is much easier to do and arguably a much more, in general terms, a much more plausible argument to make when Westminster continues to hoard a lot of power, whether that be around money or taxes or the capacity to borrow, whatever it might be. So how far and where and on what timescale is Andy Burnham willing to deliver on this vision? If it's gonna get anywhere near as close as some of the examples, whether it's Germany or individual states in the US or whatever it might be that he and others talk about when they talk about what they would see as a proper devolution.
- [23:05]
Faisal Islam
And there was something niche, which I really wanna ask Chris about, which was this idea. Does he really mean that? That he didn't. He doesn't. The whipping system of mp. Well, go for your life guys. You can rebel.
- [23:15]
James Landale
Does he really would get rid of it? He said that he would stop being mean with it.
- [23:20]
Chris Mason
Yeah. So this is so another big theme that he explores in this book with Steve Rotherham and he's talked about a lot since he west if he. That since he left Westminster, is that he grew to really dislike what Westminster calls the whipping system, in other words, the, the discipline mechanism that exists to try to ensure that a collection of mps of the same political party all vote in the way that the leadership want to want them to vote. And he argues in the book, I was rereading this on the train on the way to the speech this morning, that he thinks the whole whipping system is completely ridiculous and should be pretty much abandoned. They're my words, not his. But that's the broad, the broad sentiment. And I thought, well, he could be Prime Minister in three weeks time. I mean, you know, somewhat different approach. Maybe there might be some evolution going on with that argument now. And I thought, will he even mention it now? He did, to be fair, mention it now, I think where he hasn't a ladder that he can climb down to approach process where I mean, look, I will be flabbergasted, to put it gently, if, when we hear about Andy Burnham's cabinet in a few weeks time, if it happens in a few weeks time. Granted, the appointment of a Chief Whip will not be the most eye catching, but it would be very eye catching if there wasn't one. There will be one. Now. The argument he was making today, which he is helped by some decision making from Keir Starmer, is that he would apply it, he says, sort of less vigorously or in a way that isn't seen to be, as a critic might see it, vindictive. So Keir Starmer, from very early on, despite their vast majority, was willing to, to use the Westminster language, suspend the whip, remove the whip from labor mps who were basically disobedient. I think you might see an approach from Keir Starmer, sorry, from Andy Burnham, to get used to that sentence formulation where perhaps he's a little bit more relaxed about rebellion up to a point. But I've never come across any Prime Minister who is utterly relaxed about rebellions when they get rather.
- [25:17]
James Landale
No, no, I could imagine. Now, what about policy? We've talked about process, we've talked a bit about devolution. There was some policy in this speech, correct me if I'm wrong if I've missed one of them. The main ones, I promise to cut
- [25:31]
Chris Mason
business rates in England.
- [25:32]
James Landale
In England. To build new council houses in England. Not social houses or affordable houses, but council houses, which rather implies continuing to be owned by the state after they've been built and presumably funded by the state in terms of the building.
- [25:49]
Chris Mason
And therefore, with all sorts of questions, back to Faisal's point around financially, how that works.
- [25:53]
James Landale
Exactly. And he talks about potholes and fixing potholes. I mean, the thing, actually, on your point, Faisal, the thing that struck me listening to that, was that, well, these things aren't just.
- [26:05]
Faisal Islam
I don't.
- [26:05]
James Landale
At least it strikes me that they don't seem to just be about administration and about power, but also about money. Potholes being a case in point. Is the failure to fix potholes at the moment a result of the councils not having the power to fix potholes? Well, presumably not. It's. Presumably the councils feel they don't have enough money to fix the potholes. Where does the money come from if you're going to stick to the existing borrowing rules and trade very carefully in those terms? I mean, maybe his argument is, well, the devolution of power in and of itself generates growth, but don't you need to fix the potholes before the businesses want to drive the trucks down the road that generates the growth? You know, I. I'm not entirely sure
- [26:45]
Faisal Islam
how it works, but I think he's clearly identified and believes that there is a mass constituency in this country to sort, if you like, rebuild Britain and to get capital spending pumping far harder than it has been and to speed that up and that will then manifest itself and fix potholes and council homes. There's a. There's something they've pioneered actually, in Greater Manchester in terms of the accounting for.
- [27:09]
Chris Mason
For.
- [27:09]
Faisal Islam
For how councils can do this, that they want to. That they want to spread everywhere. But I think the broader point is all of this sounds like it's going to cost money. And, and if you're sticking to the borrowing rules, which is, if you're sticking to the pledge of the 2024 manifesto, not to increase the major taxes, you fundamentally do not have the same constraints. Therefore, does more capital spending on, I don't know, like the Liverpool to Manchester high speed train line necessarily mean less spending elsewhere? Or can you tweak something within the rules to spend more on capital? Hang on, what about the defense spending we hear about tomorrow. So, so I think, I think this is, this is a delicate balancing act. By the way, his advisors are quietly and they may just be speaking too soon here, but it seems to have gone quite well so far. The reassuring over the fiscal rules seems to have yielded almost like complete calm in the markets which I think given absolute upheaval that Chris has been reporting on every night would be seen as a relatively okay results. So we await the name of the Chancellor but like. And, and we're going to be waiting sounds like till the 15th or 16th.
- [28:30]
James Landale
Well on that, on that there was a mention, wasn't there, of em. He said I'm not going to be naming any names from. For his top team. You know where this is going.
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Chris Mason
I do have an inkling.
- [28:39]
James Landale
Naming any names for his top. And he had a job at the Westminster practice press pack and he. And he mentioned you by name formally.
- [28:51]
Chris Mason
He did. So. So, so I'm blushing a bit here. So I think there's two reasons for this. One is because obviously my job comes with a certain kind of profile. Secondly, because I have this habit of leaning against the wall during speeches rather than sitting down. I rather stood out and I caught his eye as he was saying it
- [29:09]
James Landale
and he said Good morning, Mr. Meese.
- [29:11]
Chris Mason
He did say good morning. To which I nodded a good morning back. Two things. So a couple of points to make about that, that little moment. One is, and again, don't underestimate how much this matters. Keir Starmer would never do that. He would just never do that. There was Andy Burnham just ad libbing in the moment on the stage to make a point, gentle Josh at a journalist. And that's what it was meant as. And you know, and that's fine. And again, just that comfortable being comfortable on the stage. I would say in my defense that I forget the exact phrase that he used to describe some of the reporting. Hopeless speculation or wild speculation. I would say that what we have reported about who may or may not feature in his cabinet is well sourced. It's fluid because they're still making their minds up. But it isn't wild speculation where you know, we, we speak. So when we are reporting, we're doing so because we are comfortable with the veracity of what we're being told.
- [30:07]
James Landale
I also thought that your defence was that the time at which this was supposed to have been happening, you had lost your voice anyway, so it couldn't have been you. There were no questions.
- [30:17]
Chris Mason
There were no questions.
- [30:18]
James Landale
Presume you'd gone to Manchester Lots of other journalists had gone to Manchester. There are lots of very legitimate questions that we've been talking about for Mr. Bernard.
- [30:26]
Chris Mason
In their defence, they didn't mislead us because they told us before we set off that there wouldn't be any questions. So in that sense, we weren't invited under a false prospectus. But it is worth saying it's two things. Things. This is the SEC second time now where in the last 10 days where he's been in front of reporters and has avoided questions. So the Friday after he'd won the by election, the night before, he kind of ran away, literally ran away from our questions on the. On the. The hallowed turf of Ashton Football Club. And. And then today he didn't. Now, look, if you're one of his strategists and you are trying to do a big vision thing about what you want to say to the country, the argument for not taking questions is if you had taken questions, I have asked him and Beth Rigby from Sky and various others, you know, is Ed Milibank going to be your Chancellor? How are you going to get on with Donald Trump? What about the defence investment plan? And that would have become part of the story, as opposed to it being about his pitch. The counter is, here is a Prime Minister, if he gets the job very shortly, which looks highly likely, who arrives mid Parliament, who has faced not the scrutiny of a leadership race, if there isn't a leadership race, which looks likely, and a debate.
- [31:34]
Faisal Islam
When this happened with the Conservatives, we were sat like chucking various questions at Liz Truss and none of that is happening.
- [31:41]
Chris Mason
Yeah, they went through a summer of scrutiny, both of them, and then they ended up both having a go at the job, you know, and Andy Burnham is not likely to get any of that because if he doesn't face a rival, it's all going to happen very quickly. So at what point does the scrutiny go? They insist his team, I should say that he will face scrutiny. He'll be put in front of journalists in the next couple of weeks, et cetera, et cetera.
- [32:00]
Faisal Islam
But. But in terms of the econ of this, this is where the. The Venn diagram crosses over quite interestingly. And, and I. And I just wonder if the Labour Party has actually decided this is precisely what it doesn't want, that it wants almost to pass, you know, the mandate, you know, intact. Is it the Ming Vos? I don't know what it is like. Just directly over to Andy Burnham without the hostages to fortune. You get serious hostages to fortune in a situation like this David Cameron on like Brexit, the promises he had to make to become.
- [32:34]
Chris Mason
All right, yeah.
- [32:35]
Faisal Islam
So, you know, you know, star in when he wins that leadership campaign back in whenever it was.
- [32:40]
Chris Mason
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:40]
Faisal Islam
So. So, you know, and then. But there are serious questions we'd like to ask him that. I think save the labor members would be interesting. So, for example, the maker filter, you know, okay, so what one constituency has a veto on, let's say, where Brexit goes, you know, where the Brexit reset goes. You know, the cabinet was starting to say that we're going to throw, you know, have another look at the red lines for the next manifesto now on taxation. Oh, no, no, for the red lines
- [33:08]
James Landale
on the EU members.
- [33:12]
Faisal Islam
So that raises at least the prospect of a conversation about some greater involvement with the single market. Now, does that survive a make field test? Would the labor members actually think. Well, hang on, I don't want to make a field test on that one because actually labor membership probably are quite. To point a phrase, single marketing on welfare, which is another area where with the fiscal rules, he leaned into that very purposefully, I think, to say I can be tough on things like spending. And he said, did it by saying, I, I will accept, you know, endorsing the Melbourne process, which may come up with some quite tough stuff on welfare spending. So that is quite an interesting one to watch. We'd like to know if he would.
- [33:52]
Andy Burnham
Yeah.
- [33:52]
Faisal Islam
Would he endorse whatever Milburn comes up with? Universal credit being cut on the line? I mean, those are my two. You've got probably 102 more.
- [33:59]
Chris Mason
And I, and I can't resist for newscasters and the Brexit caster aficionados amongst them to just flesh out that example you gave from 20 years ago because of a leadership race within a party where a promise made on the stump against an internal rival had real consequences, which you hinted at. So David Cameron running against David Davis, David Davis, broadly to his right and more Eurosceptic David Cameron promised to take the Conservative Party out of the center right grouping in the European Parliament, the epp, the European People's Party, and then did that as leader. And you know, that was in the forerunning discussions and debates within the Conservative Party and beyond around the whole question of our place in the European Union. And that came about in the cut and thrust of internal competition within a party for a leadership position. Now, I'm not saying whether a leadership race is better or not than not having one, but they do have consequences. And on that point, about the sort of Handing on of the Ming vase, so far at least. And as I say, he does say Mr. Burnham, who will subject himself to plenty of scrutiny in the coming weeks, but there's a finite amount of how much of that there will be, given the time frame that we're looking at. And so, yeah, that will mean perhaps that he gets through the door of Downing street, clinging on to, you know, that vase, perhaps intact or more parts of it or whatever.
- [35:19]
Faisal Islam
But then he's doing kick ups with it because he hasn't had to. The point being he's trying to get through it without having any of these questions completely. So he gets a clean. He gets a sort of clean sense. This seems to be why I thought so. I think the markets are calmer than you might think, because they think, well, a. He's. He said, listen, I'm fiscally prudent now, believe that or not. Let's see where the Chancellor decision goes. But he's also appears to. There seems to be a prospect now, maximal probability that he gets through the doors of Downing street without having to make too many promises.
- [35:55]
Chris Mason
One of his, which is interesting, someone very close to him said to me over the weekend that. But the thing is, this person said to me, because of where he's come from, in other words, not being in Parliament prior to 10 days ago, is that he's not beholden to anyone. Now, what they meant by that was the wider party rather than the markets or the wider country. But you take that thought one step on to exactly what we've just been kicking around and that capacity to try and arrive in office relatively cleanly. Now, the flip side to that is if you leave lots of those unanswered questions. And Rishi Sunak had a bit of this. Cause even though he went through a leadership race, it was widely assumed, rightly all the way through it, that he would be the loser. And so there was more attention paid to his rival, but he was still on umpteen public stages in front of cameras, taking umpteen questions principally from Conservative Party members. And, you know, that's not happening with Andy Burnham.
- [36:43]
James Landale
There'll be a lot more questions anyway, one way or the other for Andy Burnham, and we'll be trying to answer as many of them as we can ON NEWSCAST Chris, thank you very much. Cheers. James Faisal, thank you very much.
- [36:53]
Faisal Islam
Thank you.
- [36:54]
James Landale
Right, that's nearly all from us, but please do keep sending in your supported reporters a reminder that we are looking for a newscaster in or connected to every nation which is appearing at this year's World cup and we have so far supporter reporters for Brazil, Curacao, Canada. Thanks very much Lise Doucet and several other countries, but we're still on the hunt for more. So we have one more and that is Caroline. Thank you very much Caroline. Newscaster Caroline has been in touch and Caroline says I haven't heard you mention a listener from Port Portugal as a supporter reporter. I'm from the Greater Lisbon area where I've lived for over 30 years with Scotland out of the World cup knockouts. Thanks for reminding me. I'll be supporting the Portuguese team captained by the record breaking CR7, Cristiano Ronaldo Forza, Portugal. Thank you very much. I'm not sure if this means that Caroline is Scottish originally. I suppose you might be. Anyway, either way, Caroline, thank you. You are now Portuguese for the purposes of the supported reporter. And if you too want to be a supported reporter, do get in touch. You can email newsc@BBC.co.uk or you can WhatsApp us 033-01-2390, but that's it from this episode of Newscast.
- [38:07]
Faisal Islam
Bye for now.
- [38:08]
Chris Mason
Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [38:11]
Faisal Islam
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime time it's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything Newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared, it's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye. We've all been there.
- [38:59]
Chris Mason
You pop into the shop for five
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James Landale
minutes and all of a sudden you've
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Chris Mason
forgotten where you parked.
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Andy Burnham
Car. Car.
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Faisal Islam
Unfortunately, that lost feeling is what it's
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Chris Mason
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James Landale
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Chris Mason
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Andy Burnham
Please.
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Faisal Islam
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James Landale
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Chris Mason
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James Landale
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Chris Mason
It feels good to find what you're looking for.
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James Landale
It feels good to Geico.