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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Gabriel Pogrund
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Paddy O'Connell
another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in.
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Gabriel Pogrund
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- [00:21]
Paddy O'Connell
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- [00:23]
Gabriel Pogrund
together, from sales and accounting to inventory
- [00:25]
Paddy O'Connell
and marketing, all in one powerful platform.
- [00:28]
Gabriel Pogrund
No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your
- [00:37]
Paddy O'Connell
business with one unified system.
- [00:39]
Gabriel Pogrund
Try for free today@odoo.com that's odoo.com Close your eyes.
- [00:46]
Pura Advertiser Voice
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- [01:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
on Saturday nights. It's a funny thing, isn't it, when you're trying to think, oh, well, I better go to sleep because I've got to get up really early to do the jobs that we're very, very lucky to do. But you're kind of anxiously also waiting for the Sunday newspapers to drop.
- [01:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. So at about 10, 10:30 last night, we were all messaging each other. You, me, my team on Radio 4, your team on BBC1. And newscast about the emerging story from the insight team at the Sunday Times.
- [01:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
And that is the story that we will discuss with the man who broke that story for the Sunday Times, Gabriel Pogrand. And we'll try and work out where on earth it might go next on today's newscast. Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
- [01:53]
Gabriel Pogrund
I will resign as leader of the Labour Party. And what will you do?
- [01:57]
Laura Kuenssberg
Stare at a wall?
- [01:58]
Gabriel Pogrund
Humanity's next great voyage begins. You know I like my buses.
- [02:01]
Robert Jenrick
I'll come onto.
- [02:02]
Paddy O'Connell
It's supposed to be me as a
- [02:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
doctor o la la.
- [02:05]
Robert Jenrick
Thinking about it like a panter helped.
- [02:07]
Gabriel Pogrund
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, it's Laura in the studio.
- [02:12]
Paddy O'Connell
And hello, it's Paddy in the studio.
- [02:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
So the short version of the story that we're going to discuss in quite some detail. The Sunday Times carries a set of claims that George Cottrell, a young man who's long been a political friend and ally and close friend of Nigel Farage, paid for Nigel Farage's security. Some of Nigel Farage's staff and some of Nigel Farage's accommodation at an expensive London townhouse. There are suggestions in the Sunday Times that this means that Nigel Farage broke the rules of Parliament because he didn't declare the benefits that he was getting from George Cottrell. Reform's defense is that Nigel Farage was not an MP at the time, and. And therefore, to cut it short, it's nobody else's business. But this has the potential to be a very serious story because you're talking about a lot of money. You're talking about also somebody controversial because George Cottrell also is a convicted fraudster who served time in an American jail. And it's likely to be a big important story for some time, because if you believe the current polls, Nigel Farage is the person who's on course to be the next Prime Minister were there to be a general election anytime soon. And that therefore means that not just journalists, his political rivals look very closely about his. His financial dealings.
- [03:34]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. And the interesting part, to make plain before we here meet Gabriel Pogrand, is that this relates to, in kind benefits, which is the provision of staff, provision of some accommodation which Reform is not disputing. And we can later remind newscasters that you spoke to a leading member of Reform. So we will hear in voice and pictures from Reform. And also it's about what a reasonable person interprets, which takes us into the very heart of what the parliamentary authorities have to consider when they work out where wrongdoing is. So parliamentary rules say this about what you don't have to declare under the category benefits, which could not reasonably be thought by others to be related to membership of the House or to the members, parliamentary or political activities, for example, purely personal gifts or benefits from partners or family members. However, both the possible motive of the giver and the use to which the gift is to be put should be considered, and if there is any doubt, the benefit should be registered.
- [04:35]
Laura Kuenssberg
So, in other words, if you're a politician and you think, well, it's probably fine that my Aunt Margaret paid for me to go on holiday to Italy, but then actually, you get a job where you're the minister in charge of relations with Italy, you might go, I think it was fine. But just in case there's any doubt, I'm going to say that I had a freebie that took me on a trip to Italy, because there might be someone out there who thinks, ah, that will make you think better of Italy than you hadn't done if you hadn't taken that lovely free holiday. So that's sort of the idea. One of the curiosities about this, I think, is that Nigel Farage did declare a couple of things from George Cottrell in that same period, but didn't then declare these other potentially much bigger expenses over a longer period of time. So it's all. Well, it's quite. It's funny, this story in a way, because in a sense, there are lots of specifics, there are lots of technicalities that we need to be careful about trying to explain properly. And we're going to talk to the man who broke the story in a second about some of those actual specifics. But the big picture is quite clear. It's. Nigel Farage has had lots of cash and benefits in kind, swirling around for the last few years in various different guises, and it keeps tripping him up in terms of news coverage of what Reform is up to. And because you can be sure, in as much as they will say this is terribly unfair, this is just people having a go at us because we're being successful, they would rather be talking about almost anything but this.
- [06:08]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, I can go further than saying it's unfair that this is the statement. It comes as no surprise, says Reform uk, that the Sunday Times has chosen to publish this baseless and contrived story covering a period of time when Nigel Farage was not even an active politician, let alone an elected one. Given that the newspaper backed the Labour Party at the last general election, says the statement, contrary to the story's tone, no parliamentary rules have been broken. We also understand the Sunday Times has a new podcast to promote, which it seems very excited about. Its agenda should be plain for all to see.
- [06:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
So let's speak to the man who broke it, Gabriel Pogrand.
- [06:46]
Gabriel Pogrund
Hi.
- [06:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
So let's start then. Who is posh George?
- [06:50]
Gabriel Pogrund
Well, a very good question. It's a question we spent no shortage of time trying to answer, not least because he's quite an elusive guy. He travels on private jets with a pseudonym. George Coe, a U. S. Judge, once called him deceptive for changing his name in a very subtle way. So pinning down quite who George Cottrell is is difficult to answer, but the key facts are he's an aristocrat. He grew up on a Caribbean island called Mustique and in rural Worcestershire, his mother briefly dated the future king in the seventies. The marriage was. The proposed match, rather was broken off after she posed in the nude for Penthouse magazine. So it is a very colorful story and lots of sort of British high society, but it's also quite a Sad and in some ways, possibly sinister one, I suppose, because George leaves school at a young age. He's expelled for gambling activity. He goes into the City or into Mayfair and learns how to move money around the world. And it's in that context that he, masquerading with somebody else online, offers to launder money for some drug dealers who are asking him if he could help process up to £100,000 a year. George says, yes, I can help recycle it into Bitcoin. I'm going to press. Pause there. Briefly pivot to the fact that pretty tender age. In his early twenties, George separately becomes a volunteer in ukip. Nigel Farage, his party, the forerunner to reform. They become very close. George is seen as the Farage whisperer. He knows when Nigel needs a cigarette. He knows when Nigel wants a beer. He knows when Nigel wants a moment's peace. He's there to pull the chair from under the table when he's about to sit down. Is something master servant. He is something of a master servant relationship, also a very profound friendship and a very profound political relationship. And the pair together on two very significant days. One is there together on referendum night, EU referendum in 2016. They spend the following day together getting drunk and nervously awaiting the result. And then they travel together for President Trump's Republican national convention in 2016, when he was the candidate at the time, he's being confirmed as candidate. And the two men were on their way back when they stepped into Chicago o' Hare Airport for a connecting flight from Cleveland. And there are federal agents waiting for George Cottrell. The reason being that when he'd offered those drug dealers money laundering services, he wasn't talking to drug dealers at all. He was actually talking to federal agents who were doing an undercover sting operation into dark web money laundering. So that's what happens. He goes to jail, he spends time in a US Federal prison. And there is obviously a long version of this, but the short one is that throughout what happens next, the years of his life that follow his release in 2018, he remains at Nigel Farage's right hand, all the while moving to Montenegro, where he becomes intimately involved in his two passion crypto and gambling.
- [10:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
So George Koshal is somebody who we know has been by Nigel Farage's side for a long time. There's no secret about that. That revelation was not new. He's also somebody with a conviction for fraud. He served time in an American prison because of that. And the fact here is, of course, politicians can have friends and personal relationships of Course they can. It is also and would be for any politician something of a question mark to spend huge amounts of time with somebody with that kind of conviction in their recent past. That, I think is. Is fair to say and I think that's quite important to say for any politician. Hanging out with somebody with that kind of background is going to raise eyebrows.
- [10:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. And it's not illegal in any way so to do.
- [10:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
Absolutely not.
- [10:47]
Paddy O'Connell
It gets us into the perception of. Of right thinking people, which is funnily enough in the mix about what rules are broken or not in the parliamentary system, because it's what' known as in kind benefits. If we had to say what the in kind benefits are that your paper's reporting that Nigel Farah has received from George Cottrell, what is that? What is the bullet points?
- [11:09]
Gabriel Pogrund
Firstly, I anticipate your amazing producers may sound paper this down. If they don't, then your listeners know they're great people. I want to say I did the story alongside my colleagues Emmanuel Modelo, Phoenix Dominguez and George Greenwood at the Sunday Times Insight Team. Number one, number two on the rules. So essentially the driving purpose of the rules is to uphold democracy by maintaining transparency about any financial interests received by an MP which a reasonable person might think could have an effect on the words or actions of an mp. Obviously mps would always say, oh no, no impact on me that I received a bar of gold from a person.
- [11:49]
Paddy O'Connell
There is wiggle room, isn't there? There's wiggle room in the rules, basically. It's what you're saying.
- [11:52]
Gabriel Pogrund
Yeah, well, that's. I just, if, forgive me, I was outlining what they're overall designed to do. But the small print that matters here is that an MP has to declare upon their election any interest in the preceding 12 months and it's any interest that is in any way is connected to their political activities. That is to say that it's not purely personal, I. E. A box of chocolates from wife to husband, from husband to wife, wife to husband on Valentine's Day or gift from one's grandparent, if it is in any way connected to a public and political role, then and it exceeds 300 pounds in value, you are meant to declare it. But you are right, there's plenty of wiggle room. Not least because all of these matters lie in the hands of the Standards Commissioner and ultimately Parliament. There's no common law, there's no penal code, there are rules which are interpreted with discretion. But it does seem in this instance that Farage accepted all kinds of benefits. From cottrell in that 12 month period. And his position is, well, I didn't need to declare it because I wasn't a politician at the time. And moreover, to the extent that things fell outside that category because I had become an mp, well, actually, George Cottrell is a personal friend, so I don't actually need to divulge stuff like that.
- [13:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
So there are two variables that Reform thinks means he's did nothing wrong. One is that he wasn't an MP at that time, even though the rules say anything that could be perceived as a benefit connected to politics that's happened in the previous year has to be declared as soon as you're elected. So that's wriggle room one, Rigor room two is what these benefits in kind actually were. Were they connected to anything that is political Reform says no. While he was making social media content because he'd been in the celebrity jungle, he wasn't technically an mp, he wasn't involved in politics at the time. There's a wrinkle with that, though, because he was the honorary president of Reform, he still did do interviews about politics from time to time, but in Reform's view, it's like, well, he wasn't a politician. This was not connected with Capital P politics, so it's fine. However, I think it's also fair to say that your story, Gabriel, and coming on top of other allegations about Nigel Farage's finances that have been rumbling along for the last few months, has hit a nerve. We put these claims to Robert Jenrick, of course, who is now a senior Reform mp, and as you might expect, his tone was quite feisty and he tried to robustly defend the man who's his boss.
- [14:30]
Robert Jenrick
Well, just to be clear, George Cottrell is an old friend of Nigel Farage's.
- [14:36]
Gabriel Pogrund
He.
- [14:36]
Robert Jenrick
He did give support to Nigel before he was a Member of Parliament. He hasn't done so since he became a Member of Parliament. No rules have been broken whatsoever. This is basically a very old story that has been dredged up by the Sunday Times, which is a Labour supporting newspaper, in order to try and drag Nigel down. It's not going to succeed.
- [15:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
I'd like you to engage, though, in the specifics about this story. There are new allegations, as you say. People have known for a time that George Cottrell and Nigel Farage are friends, but there are new claims in the newspaper this morning. Did Nigel Farage stay in that townhouse that's being rented by George Cottrell?
- [15:19]
Robert Jenrick
I believe Nigel has said that he stayed A couple of times there, very infrequently as you're allowed to. I mean, Nigel Farage is allowed to have friends. As a politician, you're allowed to stay at a friend's house. And certainly remember, Nigel was not an elected politician. He was, if you like, an ex politician at the time. He was somebody in the private world who was not even considering standing for Parliament. He'd ruled it out and this was a friendship that he had with someone who was helping him. So I honestly don't see what the story is here, other than just yet another attempt by certain parts of the media to try and muckrage about somebody who is actually trying to shake up the system and challenge the status quo.
- [16:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
There are two very important facts, though. During this period in 2024, Nigel Farage was the honorary president of UK. He was still this very big political figure.
- [16:13]
Robert Jenrick
Well, he wasn't going to.
- [16:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
And the rules about say very clearly that people who become MPs should declare things that were any benefits to them in the 12 months before their election. That's the rule. That is the rule.
- [16:30]
Robert Jenrick
You have omitted the second half of the rule, which is that you don't have to declare things where they're purely personal. And the allegation, if you like, that you've put to me is that Nigel Farage, maybe a couple of times, I don't know precisely, stayed in the home of a personal friend and does he still stay? So by definition, that does not fall within the rules.
- [16:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
Does he still stay there?
- [16:53]
Robert Jenrick
Not as far as I'm aware, but I don't know you're allowed to stay at the home of a personal friend. You know, it feels to me, Laura, as if parts of the media, particularly those who are desperate for there to be a Labour government, want to try to constantly smear Nigel because he is at the moment leading in the polls and has 350 points. And I'd like to, if I may make this point. What is their primary motive? It's because Nigel is the only person who is going to bring about real change in this country, who is going to tackle the issues that the cozy consensus of politicians, Labour and Conservative and much of the media have neglected to for a long time.
- [17:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
Our motive this morning, Robert Jenner, is to get a specific answer. They're ways of questions.
- [17:42]
Robert Jenrick
Immigration is out of control. Nigel's the only person who has the courage and conviction to fix these challenges. That's why people are scared of him.
- [17:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
There's no secret that George Cottrell's been a personal friend of Nigel Farage for a long time. But the allegations of this morning is that he's done much more than a normal personal friend has done, that he has given him use of an expensive townhouse in London, and also that he has paid for Nigel Farage's staff and his security. So I'd like you to address these specific questions. Did George Cottrell pay for any of Nigel Farage's staff in 2024 before he
- [18:13]
Robert Jenrick
became a Member of Parliament?
- [18:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, absolutely he did.
- [18:16]
Robert Jenrick
But this is important. You're sort of papering over that. That's a very important point. You know, you're allowed to accept a gift, support, whatever you want to call it from a personal friend before you're a Member of Parliament, if it's in a purely personal capacity. So there is absolutely nothing to see in this story.
- [18:35]
Laura Kuenssberg
What's a personal capacity when it is staff creating social media content?
- [18:41]
Robert Jenrick
Well, when you're a GB news presenter and you've just been on the jungle, you do create social media content.
- [18:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
Okay.
- [18:49]
Robert Jenrick
That's nothing to do with his job as a Member of Parliament, because he wasn't a Member of Parliament. He'd said he wasn't going to become a Member of Parliament. So, you know, I completely respect your, you know, your right to ask these questions, but what's actually going on here is something bigger than this. It's that day after day, parts of the media are putting these stories forward and they're not working. Why are they not working? Because millions of people in this country see, as I do, a country that is in dire straits, in dire straits, in need of radical change. They know the Tory Party, the Labour Party, are not going to deliver, that. They know that Nigel is the man who's going to do it because he has been fighting this fight for 25 years.
- [19:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
But, Robert Jenrick, you yourself said recently that there were legitimate questions around Nigel Farage's financial future.
- [19:38]
Robert Jenrick
Well, I said that journalists can ask
- [19:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
questions, so let's try and get some more answers.
- [19:42]
Robert Jenrick
These are not.
- [19:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
Let's try questions. Of course. Answer them in any way you wish. Did George Cottrell pay for Nigel Farage's security in 2024 before he became a Member of Parliament?
- [19:52]
Robert Jenrick
Yeah. This is reform has been completely open about this. A private citizen who's worried about his own personal security. And by the way, every time Nigel has raised with the authorities his personal security and that of his family, because without question, he is the most endangered person in public life, the authorities have chosen to do next to nothing to help Him, I think that's a disgrace. It's perfectly legitimate for a personal friend to offer you security.
- [20:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
So, Gabriel, what do you say there to Robert Generic saying that you have dragged up old nonsense from the past because you are labour supporters?
- [20:27]
Gabriel Pogrund
Well, he's totally right. No, I mean, what I actually mean to say is that is obviously impossible to interpret with a straight face. I mean, it's hilarious. I, as it happens at Sunday Times, also the paper which I broke the story about Starmer receiving spectacles and suits from a wealthy labor donor, this idea that we've done it because we are labor supporting. Well, we're not. We're not in anything supporting newspaper. We just do stories that we think are worth doing. So I guess without being too pompous, I just find it quite funny, this idea that it's also old stuff being dredged up. Or that's just, I guess, just not correct by definition. My editors don't let me put things in a paper that are already known to the public. So that's that.
- [21:11]
Paddy O'Connell
That's the annoying thing about editors. And I try and get old things past this podcast.
- [21:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
Here's what I made earlier.
- [21:17]
Paddy O'Connell
But I mean, there is, as you've, as we've discussed openly on the podcast, there is a gray area. And it would be expected that Gabriel reports something which Reform says you're in the gray area. My interpretation is this. When the authorities come to look at it, they'll go with my version of the gray area, not with Gabriel's. But here's another thing which I think is always important in the journalism that I like from you too, and that is both you, Laura, and you, Gabriel. It's the timeline, what happened and when. Now, one of the interesting things for me is what you've just raised about the fact that Nigel Farage was undecided about a return to politics.
- [21:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
He said he wasn't going to do it. He'd ruled it out.
- [21:55]
Paddy O'Connell
So actually in the grey zone and in the timeline is an overlapping period when he was in the jungle. He didn't know he was coming back, but he had accepted the presidency of Reform. And I wonder, Gabriel, given that you've done the front page story, if you think we're really being asked to go back into the mind of Nigel Farage at the point when, although you've made the claims you have, it is true that he didn't know himself that he'd be the MP for Clapton.
- [22:19]
Gabriel Pogrund
I think what you just raised there is a really important point and it is you can't Ignore it. The fact is that Nigel zigged, Nigel Farage zigged and zagged before making his decision to stand for Parliament belatedly, and let's be completely honest about that, that it's, it's, it's not. Nobody has yet provided bulletproof evidence that he always knew he was going to stand and pull the rabbit out of the hat. So let's just have that there in our consideration of the extent to which he's compromised by having accepted these benefits. So one thing that I would say is the timeline matters, but it, the reason it's 12 months, I didn't write the rules, but I can see why they would have designed them in this way, is it's about when someone does become an mp, are there things in the immediate rear view mirror that might influence them? But otherwise you have a world where you get given a suitcase of cash the day before you're a parliamentarian and you don't have to declare it. So it captures things before you become an MP for a reason, which is that people think whatever you were thinking at the time, whatever you were doing at the time. Now you fall under these new special responsibilities, for which reason we're entitled to know a little bit about any gifts you were receiving then.
- [23:29]
Paddy O'Connell
And also, it wasn't a suitcase case of cash, it was in kind benefits. So you then also got the interpretation of when in kind benefits are declarable and what a reasonable person would think. So in terms of briefing our newscaster, there's the question of a reasonable person. There's a question of a timeline, there's a question of Gabriel's completely detailed conversations, sorry, reporting with his colleagues.
- [23:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's right. And newscasters listening to this will inevitably take different views. That's the joy of humans, is that people take, take different views on things. So do you think that it matters that Nigel Farage was put up in an expensive townhouse near Buckingham palace by this chap called George Cottrell during a period of time? Robert Jenrick confirmed on the program this morning that he had stayed at that house on some occasions. Some newscasters will think, well, yes, of course, that he should have donated. He should have declared that because that was taking in kind benefits. You know, that's a, that's a privilege to stay somewhere expensive and fancy in London and near Parliament. And we should know that as the public, we should have the know. Other newscasters might think, well, I don't care who. So, so what it matters, he stayed at his friend's house and we're not making a judgment here at the BBC on whether that was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, whether he should have declared it or not. But that is the kind of. And I think it's helpful. P. You talk about these gray areas here. There is room for interpretation in these rules. But I think what we can also say to newscasters is if this had happened in a different political party, opposition politicians would also have been jumping up and down because the mixture of politics and money is just, oh, toxic. You know, it is a gift for political opponents if there are question marks about their rival's financial arrangements and where. I think it is getting tricky for reform now. And I'm not saying that he's done anything wrong. I think it's becoming tricky politically because their image to the public is we're for the working people, we're for the working man. We're the ones who know how hard it is out there. And their leader is time and again getting tangled up in all sorts of different stories that pertain to enormous amounts of cash. And I think over time, that is a very tricky political perception that's being created around Farage. But I don't know, Gabriel, if you would. Well, if either of you would agree with that.
- [25:48]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, I just wanted to make the distinction which you're drawing. There's the other investigation into cash, 5 million pounds. This is not about cash. But I wonder if you can remind us, Gabriel, how the donation from the billionaire supporter of reform UK of 5 million pound cash, how that will be adjudicated.
- [26:06]
Gabriel Pogrund
Well, just ever so briefly, this is about cash. It's just about cash that was paid by George Cottrell to other people to benefit Farage. So his lawyers confirmed me that he, via electronic transfer, deposited monies in the bank accounts of third parties who served Nigel Farage as security guards, as drivers, as social media support, as back office staff. So he was paying money that aided and abetted Farage. They worked in the office of Nigel Farage. So it is about money. But you're quite right to draw a distinction that it's not direct. I was just thinking from the Christopher Harborne donation, which was. You asked how it will be adjudicated. As I understand it, the Standards Commissioner has an ongoing inquiry.
- [26:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think also the other thing about this is to remind people that it is the parliamentary authorities that investigate this kind of stuff, you know, and it is, as Gabriel was just telling us, it get. It gets, I'm afraid, newscasters very processy, very, very quickly. But we've already had this morning, the cabinet minister James Murray said on the program that this, you know, investigations need to take place. The Liberal Democrats president Josh Babarunde is out there saying the investigation should be expanded to take these claims into it as well. And just. Gabriel, I know we have to let you go in 60 seconds.
- [27:18]
Gabriel Pogrund
Sorry.
- [27:18]
Laura Kuenssberg
No, no, don't apologize. You're being generous with your time. Just finally then the role of cryptocurrency come into this tangled story.
- [27:26]
Gabriel Pogrund
I'm really pleased you said that. So Nigel Farage let me do really Potter summary. Massive champion of crypto. His party got draft legislation to make Britain the crypto capital of the world. Farage lobby the bank of England on behalf of, well, he lobbied him in relation to crypto when they had a behind closed doors meeting. George Cottrell is a crypto gambler. He makes money through his gambling activities. He's intimately involved in a gambling process platform. And moreover, this is a key point or an important addendum. It's called Tether Bet. It uses a cryptocurrency called Tether, which is part owned by Christopher Harborne, Nigel Farage's billionaire owner behind the £5 million. So it's a very tightly, tightly entwined social connection to the heart of this too. But basically, no, the crypto point is cultural. Is involved in crypto for art has lobbied for crypto. There is some overlap on the Venn diagram that will no doubt be of interest to people.
- [28:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
A Venn diagram is the best way to describe this story with all these different personalities, all these different strands and interests. Gabriel Pogren, thank you so much for joining us this morning.
- [28:28]
Gabriel Pogrund
Thank you so, so much.
- [28:29]
Robert Jenrick
Bye bye.
- [28:32]
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- [28:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
When you hear the phrase Made in
- [29:00]
Gabriel Pogrund
China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman.
- [29:02]
Pura Advertiser Voice
And I'm Asma Khalid. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. And today on our show, we look at the origins and evolution of Made in China. Because it actually wasn't inevitable.
- [29:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
What we're talking about is the world, world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.
- [29:22]
Gabriel Pogrund
For more, listen to the global story
- [29:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're watching that, Gabriel was literally. He was in such such high demand today that he had to get up and run off and put his phone down as we finished our conversation.
- [29:39]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. Although don't you get the impression that everyone's running away when they're talking to New to us on Newscaster. It's all like, oh, do you know what? I've got to put the joint in the oven. Bye. Sunday being. I mean, the thing is, that's the thing about Sundays, that some of the best journalism of the week we find on Sunday, and we have to bring all the best efforts we can to report the things that have happened.
- [29:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
We can.
- [29:58]
Paddy O'Connell
So it takes us back, anyway, to the point of the Sunday news, which is, here's a story on the front page of the Sunday Times. It's raised questions and we can expect it to rumble on.
- [30:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
I'm sure it will rumble on because the Sunday Times team, led by Gabriel Pogrand, have got an. An excellent track record in breaking big stories that then pick up what we might call legs. And you can be sure that the opposition parties are going to want to make sure that this story keeps running. And, you know, there are rules around what MPs are allowed to do, because the public in our system has a right to know who is paying their way, whether that is benefits in kind rather than actually handing over money, or whether it is actually outside earnings, I think.
- [30:43]
Paddy O'Connell
Is it fair to say that the star of Breakfast Television on Sunday was actually a dog?
- [30:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, Barley, David Blunkett's beautiful retriever, German Shepherd Cross, was in the studio with us yesterday. And anyone who saw the program this morning will have seen halfway through our very interesting interview with David Blunkett, Barley, who's a beautiful dog who's behaving incredibly well, decided to sit up. So in the rest of the wide shots, you haven't seen the program. This is brilliant. Very, very funny shot where me and David Blunkett are opposite each other, as you and I are, but Barley is sitting up in the middle. So more dogs on tv, please, Ed. I was delighted to have Barley in the studio.
- [31:21]
Gabriel Pogrund
Yes.
- [31:21]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, if you could have your way, every guest would bring a dog in.
- [31:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, absolutely. And my dog would be with me at all times.
- [31:27]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, but we can't do that because. And then we'd have to have with then, you know, remember, I'm not going to say it.
- [31:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
You'd like to have a cat with you.
- [31:34]
Paddy O'Connell
I would always like this to be A cat.
- [31:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
You don't like cats.
- [31:38]
Paddy O'Connell
I do.
- [31:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
You don't.
- [31:40]
Paddy O'Connell
I do.
- [31:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
Don't lie to our listeners. You don't like cats. That's BBC fakery.
- [31:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Stop it. No, I do. I do. Last night I texted a neighborhood. No. Who'd put up a poster because they'd lost their cat and I was convinced I'd found it. So I. Last night I was texting.
- [31:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, I didn't trust you with a cat.
- [31:58]
Paddy O'Connell
I was texting. Anyway, they're very, very similar, but unfortunately they're not the same animal, but they're really similar in sort of tabby stripes. So I. I refute that and I don't want to ever mention again now. So we've got a supporter reporter update. Now we read this email out from Nathan High. Newscast. I'd love to put myself forward as your fan reporter for England or the USA at the 2026 World Cup. I'm English, an England fan through and through. I now live In Frisco, Texas, 30 minutes north of Dallas, one of the host cities. I've been in the US for 11 years. Married my American wife Nina in July 2025.
- [32:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
So, Nathan, your time is now. Send us a voice note at full time of the England Mexico match, which of course is the early hours of the morning here, but will be in the evening for you in Texas. So support our reporter. Nathan, your time is now. Make sure you send us a voice note at the end of the match. Paddy, are you going to be watching the football?
- [32:51]
Paddy O'Connell
I am, because Monday is my Saturday, effectively, like, probably like you. I have Monday off mostly, and I will therefore have no sleep deprivation problems.
- [33:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, well, I'm hoping to be asleep, actually. Yes, I was awake at that time this morning and I don't really want to be awake at that time tomorrow morning.
- [33:10]
Paddy O'Connell
I woke at 3 this morning thinking it was 9.
- [33:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, no.
- [33:13]
Paddy O'Connell
So I've already. I've have, yeah. But that won't happen again because I. I will be able to be up and I'm hopeful that the new pub at the end of my road will be open so I can go in in it. Newly opened.
- [33:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
Very good. Well, enjoy.
- [33:27]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you.
- [33:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
Good luck to England. We will reconvene next weekend. Adam will be with you for Monday's newscast tomorrow.
- [33:33]
Paddy O'Connell
Oh, that answers the question. It doesn't quite answer the question whether he was at Taylor's wedding. But for us, bringing the weekend's newscasts to a close. Thank you for listening and goodbye.
- [33:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
Goodbye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [33:46]
Robert Jenrick
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast, you clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.
- [34:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
When you hear the phrase Made in
- [34:35]
Gabriel Pogrund
China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman.
- [34:38]
Pura Advertiser Voice
And I'm Asma Khalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. And today on our show we look at the origins of and evolution of Made in China. Because it actually wasn't inevitable.
- [34:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.
- [34:57]
Gabriel Pogrund
For more, listen to the global story
- [34:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.