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- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Lyse Doucet
This is Danielle Fishel and Ryder Strong
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Adam Fleming
from Pod Meets World.
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Lyse Doucet
When you have five and seven year old boys, I can promise you they love superheroes.
- [00:13]
Zoe MacKenzie
Oh it never goes away. Indy is 11 years old and he's
- [00:16]
Adam Fleming
obsessed with comics, cartoons, video games, all of it.
- [00:20]
Lyse Doucet
Adler and Keaton both have Spider man costumes and if anything says Marvel on it, they are in same.
- [00:26]
Adam Fleming
Which is why we love Lingokids.
- [00:27]
Zoe MacKenzie
They have Marvel Spider man activities that are totally age appropriate and safe, made
- [00:32]
Lyse Doucet
just for the little ones.
- [00:33]
Zoe MacKenzie
Plus Disney's Moana, Frozen Zootopia, all the
- [00:36]
Lyse Doucet
characters your kids already love and a
- [00:38]
Zoe MacKenzie
few you're secretly hoping they'll get into.
- [00:41]
Lyse Doucet
I just load up the iPads with Lingokids before a trip and with over 4000 interactive activities, songs and shows, it keeps their attention for hours.
- [00:49]
Zoe MacKenzie
Download Lingokids for free or go all
- [00:51]
Lyse Doucet
in with LingoKids plus for even more incredible content, choose the yearly plan and save up to 60%. Search lingokids in the App Store or
- [00:59]
Zoe MacKenzie
Google Play Lingokids Everything kids love.
- [01:04]
Adam Fleming
You can never have too many tools. Shop Dewalt deals at Lowe's. Get a free select Dewalt 20 volt max power tool when you buy a select 20 volt max 5amp hour battery kit. Plus get a free additional Dewalt 20 volt max 8amp hour battery when you buy a Dewalt 10 inch 20 volt max dual bevel compounded miter saw. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 624 wall supplies. Last selection varies by LOC. Hello. In the first half of this episode of Newscast, we will do a deep dive into the text of the US and Iran deal, which has seized world attention after it emerged on Wednesday night and has been signed multiple times in multiple different formats since then, it seems. But make sure you listen to the second half of Newscast because we're going to combine a few things. A VIP politician from abroad, the UK social media ban for under 16 year olds, which was announced this week, and yes, Supporter Reporter, our feature where we find a newscast in all 48 of the countries represented in the World Cup. Intrigued? Well, you will be if you listen to this episode of Newscast.
- [02:19]
Zoe MacKenzie
Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [02:21]
Adam Fleming
Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture.
- [02:25]
Zoe MacKenzie
Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
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Gary O'Donoghue
Six.
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Lyse Doucet
Seven.
- [02:30]
Gary O'Donoghue
Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.
- [02:32]
Adam Fleming
Daddy has has also a special connotation.
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Lyse Doucet
Ooh la la.
- [02:35]
Gary O'Donoghue
Thinking about it like a panto helped
- [02:38]
Zoe MacKenzie
do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:39]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. More on social media and how to tackle it shortly. But first of all, we're going to look at Donald Trump's deal with Iran. So bits of the deal have been leaking out throughout the week. Then on Wednesday night in quite strange circumstances, journalists were briefed on the full text. And then on Wednesday night we got the spectacle of Donald Trump Leav G7 summit in Evian when it concluded to fly to the palace of Versailles for a posh banquet with Emmanuel Macron with a little side order of deal being signed to go with it. So what's actually in the deal and what are people saying about it? We've got two people who can do a very good job of telling us both those things. Joining us now, chief international correspondent Lyse Doucet. Lys, where in the world are you?
- [03:24]
Lyse Doucet
Well, I'm in a place I don't normally visit and I'm in Switzerland. I'm in Lucerne in the central part of Switzerland, about a 20 minute drive from the fancy resort Borgenstock, where we understand that another formal signing of the Iran US Deal is going to be signed and they will actually on the spot then begin those negotiations that 60 days of negotiations. So it's quite a, it's an historic moment for all of the questions marks above this historic moment.
- [03:56]
Adam Fleming
And also joining us is chief North America correspondent Gary o'. Donoghue. Hi, Gary.
- [04:00]
Gary O'Donoghue
Hi, Adam. I'm in steamy Washington as you, as you, as you know.
- [04:04]
Adam Fleming
Yes. Where there's just as much action happening as well, but maybe fewer mountains. Right. Lots to get through in terms of what this Iran deal is. Lys, first of all, just talk us through the pictures we got from the palace of Versailles on Wednesday night, just as you and I were sitting down to be on the Newsnight sofa together.
- [04:23]
Lyse Doucet
Yes. Well, there you had it. The G7 nations President Trump holding court to use the Versailles and he did the signing of the deal. He himself the deal had been signed digitally before then it was signed by President Trump. And now we've had after in these indirect talks for weeks now. We've had the exchange of messages, now we've had the exchange of photographs. So President Trump signed it in Versailles. Prisoner Masood Pejestion signed in Tehran. One of the key mediators, the Pakistani Prime Minister Noah Shahbaz Sharif, he signed and they put up pictures of his signing this morning. And Qatar we expect will also be here tomorrow for this next step of the process. There was a lot of congratulations to President Trump by President Macro and others saying well done. And for all of the criticism of this deal that Gary knows so well, the President seems very proud of himself
- [05:21]
Adam Fleming
and we can talk about some of the implications of it in a second. But just in terms of how this deal has been rolled out, Gary, is it true that you were on this big conference call on Wednesday night or Wednesday afternoon, where you are, where the US Officials were reading it out word for word to you down the phone?
- [05:37]
Gary O'Donoghue
Yeah, I can't tell you who it was. It was a very senior administration official. And they literally read it out. They read it out and they gave a little commentary on each paragraph. I mean, the spin, as you might call, took an hour or so. And then there were lots and lots of questions and there were lots of attempts to clarify various points on it, particularly the issue around this $300 billion reconstruction fund, which is already coming for some criticism from some Republicans here, and also some clarification around the nuclear issue. Because if you remember, the US Said it was going to take that nuclear material out of the country. The deal does not say that, even according to the Americans. So there's lots to get into in the detail here. And what we're seeing now is a battle royal for public opinion, a real battle to see who wins the spin game over what this deal means in the coming days.
- [06:37]
Adam Fleming
Well, let's dig into the deal then. We won't do all 14 points, but I thought we could recreate that conference call Gary was on on Wednesday night by going through some of it in and then get both of you to comment on it. So the first point is the United States of America and the Islamic Republic of Iran and their allies in the current war, by signing this memorandum of understanding, declare the immediate and permanent termination of military operations on all fronts, including in Lebanon. So, Lis, that's basically the 60 day ceasefire to open some space to negotiate some other details.
- [07:07]
Lyse Doucet
But there's the word permanent in there. This is what Iran has called for from the beginning. And everyone said, well, how can you actually achieve that? The end of the war. They've made it clear they don't want to lurch from one ceasefire to the next. Bear in mind there was another war, a 12 day war in 2025. They said as part of this deal, it has to be the end of the war. So this seems to signal that this is what it's all about. Not just for 60 days, but the end of the war. I don't know what they said in Gary's conversation, but critically as well, Lebanon, already today we're hearing of Israeli strikes. We're hearing also of casualties. And this is going to be one of the many weak pillars of this new process, if you like.
- [07:51]
Gary O'Donoghue
Adam it's also worth saying that that mention of Lebanon is the only mention of Lebanon in the whole document. There's nothing else about what happens with Lebanon, that one mention.
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Adam Fleming
And of course, Hezbollah and the Israeli government who are responsible for the hostilities in southern Lebanon, are not parties to this agreement. Gary.
- [08:10]
Gary O'Donoghue
No, they're not. Nor is Israel. And that is the thing that could derail the whole thing in the medium and longer term. Israel, of course, the prime minister is facing elections. He's facing a hammering at home over this deal. People saying it was good, you started it, but you didn't finish it. And then the president here expressing his frustration with Benjamin Netanyahu, telling him he doesn't have to knock down apartment blocks to kill one person, even suggesting, extraordinarily suggesting this idea that the Syrians could go and sort out Lebanon, I mean, which is, you know, obviously unthinkable, I mean, in all sorts of ways. So, yeah, so that is, that is the big unknown about the future in terms of the stability of this whole deal.
- [08:57]
Adam Fleming
And then lease points 4 and 5 are about the lifting of the US blockade of Iranian vessels in the Strait of Hormuz, and then Iran reopening the Strait of Hormuz to everybody. How do we think that is actually
- [09:09]
Lyse Doucet
going to work in this beginning? It's starting to work very well. The vessels are already going through. Some Iranian oil tankers are said to have moved through the straits. It will take time, we understand, for the mines to be cleared. That could be a matter of weeks, maybe even months. Those tankers, those other vessels have been idling there for many, many months. And so it may take a bit of time. They have to be reassured that this is going to last. But we've already seen the oil prices have come down. In fact, they're now, I think I read just before I joined you that they're the lowest. They've gone back to the level before the war. And also the market has gone up. The activity in the market, which has led President Trump to issue one of his truth social posts. And if I remember correctly, he said anyone who criticizes this deal after he noted the how the markets have responded, he said, is are stupid, ignorant or just jealous. But crucially, the deal also says that the Strait of Hormuz will remain toll free for 60 days and then there is to be a regional dialogue to decide how to run the Strait of Hormuz. Run the Strait of Hormuz, this strategic waterway. And this is where Iran is going to insist. We are already hearing from senior Iranian officials today. President Trump says there will be no tolls, but there will be something. According to Iran, they're planning to charge some kind of fees for services. They've already had discussions throughout the war and the ceasefire with Oman, which controls the southern coast of the strategic strait. Of course, there'll be other countries in the region like the United Arab Emirates, which don't want Iran to have any, any foothold at all in the straits, seeing it as a dangerous precedent for straits the world over. But this is just the beginning for Iran and I think Gary would say that that is another weakness as far as the critics of the deal are concerned.
- [11:13]
Gary O'Donoghue
Yeah, it's interesting. The spin here on that is that look, when this discussion takes place after 60 days, none of those other countries in the Gulf are going to allow Iran to charge. That's their spin here. Now that still leaves open the distinction, distinct possibility that there could be a position we get to after this war where there are these charges and that would be completely different to what we had before the war. Part of me wonders, of course, because the US isn't all that dependent on the oil that goes through those straits at all. Part of me wonders whether there's a sort of competitive advantage for the U.S. i mean, maybe that's too Machiavellian, but maybe there's some sort of advantage in that ending up being the case. Who knows?
- [11:55]
Adam Fleming
But China's oil imports more expensive because America doesn't get route.
- [12:01]
Gary O'Donoghue
It would, wouldn't it? So who knows what the thinking is behind that. But certainly the spin is, of course it won't happen because other countries in the region won't let it happen. One other quick thing on the mines, that is a key point. There's a load of mines there. One very senior national security official told me recently that they have a pretty good idea where they all are. And the other thing they're saying is that the, the sort of risk, the appetite for risk varies significantly between different shipping operators. So some, you know, are prepared to go through this southern channel near Oman and take a chance. Others are much more risk averse. I want to wait and see until it's cleared so there's not kind of just a switch that you flick and everyone suddenly sails out of the Gulf into the Sea of Oman. That's not the way it's going to work.
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Adam Fleming
And then 0.6 of this 14 point plan is the one that you were referring to earlier, gary, about this $300 billion reconstruction fund. And that's £225 billion in sterling. Just explain what the idea of that is.
- [13:03]
Gary O'Donoghue
Well, the idea is opaque. I mean, what the deal says is that the US undertakes, along with its other regional powers to create this at least $300 billion, this is what it says, at least $300 billion fund. Now the spin on this yesterday was we're not, we don't have to pay them a cent. It's all performance based. It'll probably come from sanctions relief and unfreezing of assets. There's, you know, we're not giving them anything. So the words kind of don't really match what, you know, what the spin was yesterday. And there's a reason for that, which is because this is the thing that will really get under the skin of Republicans here. And we've already said to Ted, seen Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican senator, come out and say, you know, if this is it, then this is a huge mistake. Oh, but we love your deal, President Trump. So there's a, there's potential here. I mean, Bill Cassidy, another Republican senator who's no friend of Donald Trump and has actually been primaried out of his seat in November, he said it was the worst foreign policy mistake in decades. I mean, he kind of would say that, wouldn't he? But even so, there will be others who think that, who aren't prepared to say it out loud. So there's a lot of questions around that fund and it's very tempting, isn't it, given the context of Versailles, to use other words for that fund, maybe that begin with R and like reparation.
- [14:34]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, lots of Versailles jokes being made after the banquet and the signing last night. And then at least we get onto point 7 and 8 which is talking about the US lifting their sanctions on Iran, which would then allow Iran to sell loads more stuff like oil on the international market then what the Iranian government's responsibilities would be for its nuclear program in return. Just explain what we think is going to happen there.
- [14:57]
Lyse Doucet
Well, there's a lot of criticism too that there's been a temporary waiving of the sanctions which have prevented or at least the restrictions preventing Iran from exporting its crude oil, its petroleum product. And now it has waivers allowing it to do that and also to access the transportation services and the banking services which are necessary for carrying out those kind of deals. And then when it gets to sanctions and unfreezing of the assets. That's in the second part of the deal. And that is where Iran is going to have to make concessions. I think there's a widespread assessment that when you do the, when you add it up, Iran has done really well on this memorandum of understanding, or many are now saying the memorandum of misunderstanding. But if Iran wants the sanctions lifted, if they want the frozen assets, and it's interesting on that, I'm sure you noticed it, Gary. President Obama had released Iranian money that had been frozen as part of the Iran nuclear deal in 2015. And President Trump never stopped saying, look at that money that President Obama gave to the Iranians. And yesterday he said, well, no, that's their money. It belongs to them. Complete turnabout. And how he described that kind of money. But there's the wording of, I don't have it in front of me. The wording of is something on a schedule that will be agreed by both sides. In other words, Iran will have to take a step and then sanctions will be listed. It will be, Iran has said it wants these kinds of negotiations. You do this very transactional, like President Trump, like, you do this and we'll do that. But when it comes to the nuclear program, which is really the core of this deal, for all of the ways in which President Trump changes from one day to the next, what he really wanted to achieve in Iran, he was always consistent. It was about that Iran could never acquire or develop a nuclear weapon. So that is key in this agreement. But they're using a word that's either reiterate or reaffirm, reiterate or reform, which means to say, Iran has said this before. It's been saying it for many, many years. It said it in the 2015 nuclear deal. And when they get the little hints of what will be the shape of Iran's nuclear deal, as Gary mentioned, there's no mention of President Trump's repeated demand that what he calls nuclear dust, which is 440kg of highly enriched uranium, has to be shipped out to the United States instead. There's a mention of the down blending which diluting this uranium. And that's a concession Iran made before the war. I was in those talks in Geneva. Coincidentally, on February 26, Iran offered to dilute its highly enriched uranium again, which prompts the critics to say, what was the point of this war? You could have got that before you spend billions and billions of American taxpayers dollars.
- [17:53]
Adam Fleming
And Lisa and Gary, I'm just thinking of things that we've become very familiar with over the last few months that don't really appear anywhere in this text. Iran's support for its proxies around the region. We already talked about Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran's ballistic missile program. So not nuclear weapons, just conventional weapons that could be used to hit, I don't know, American aircraft carriers or other targets. Regime change. And the supreme leader is still the son of the previous supreme leader. Gary. There's a lot of things that have been talked about extensively that are just not addressed.
- [18:27]
Gary O'Donoghue
Yeah, the ballistic missile program is a big one. And that is also something that will, will annoy a lot of Trump supporters here because of the direct threat, obviously, to Israel. And for those on the right who are, you know, significant and big backers of Israel here, that is something that they have always been concerned about. But that is, that is not on the table at all. In terms of the proxies, the spin has been, well, you know, we've told them they can't sponsor violence in the region anymore. Well, okay, well, let's see how that one pans out. But there's, you know, the focus for this administration has been the nuclear material in particular, and that's where they think they've got the win. But there is a lot that has been on the table at various points that is, that is not in this deal whatsoever. So that is, you know, that will be chalked up, I think, as a win for the Iranians on this memorandum of understanding. And that's why, you know, we've had multiple briefings, you know, as, you know, as we 10 minutes from when we're talking, as we record this, you know, the vice president is actually going to be at the White House doing another big brief public briefing, this time for members of the press in the press room about this deal. So the offensive is on.
- [19:45]
Adam Fleming
Well, Gary, I will take the hint and let you go and watch J.D. vance. And then Lees, you will welcome J.D. vance. Not personally, but you'll see him where you are on Friday.
- [19:54]
Lyse Doucet
Yeah. I think for all of our talk about the going back and forth, this is a historic moment in Switzerland. I keep thinking about that hot Summer's Day in July 2015 and the feeling then that for all of the shortcomings of the 2015 deal, President Obama always said there's no trust in this deal. You have to verify, verify, verify. And negotiations is about give and take. Both sides got something in. Both sides lost some. But I can still remember the headiness of that day that truly history was made. Multilateral arms Control agreement. Fast forward to where we are today. The press coverage is going to be limited. There's only going to be pool cameras. I'm thinking, well, what will it feel like tomorrow to see if this happens? If the American vice president, J.D. vance, is in public shaking hands with Mohamed Bagar Galiboff, the Speaker of the Parliament, sending a symbol of. This is an effort. I'm not going to say, like President Trump, that he's done it already, but an effort to try to begin to end 47 years of enmity, then that is something. That is something to take note of.
- [21:01]
Adam Fleming
Well, thank you for taking note for us, Lys.
- [21:03]
Zoe MacKenzie
Thank you, thank you.
- [21:04]
Lyse Doucet
Good to be with you.
- [21:05]
Adam Fleming
And Gary, thanks to you too.
- [21:06]
Gary O'Donoghue
Thanks, Adam.
- [21:07]
Adam Fleming
Now, we got so much feedback about our interview with Bridget Phillipson about social media that we thought we'd maybe plough this furrow for a bit longer. And we had a really interesting email from a newscaster who's got a special interest in this subject who doesn't live in the uk. Here is their email. Thanks for your newscast podcast. It's how I keep up with UK politics. Thanks especially for the episode on the social media ban. I've had a lot to do with the ban in Australia. Indeed, I raised it in my maiden speech to the Australian House of Representatives when I was first elected in 2022. I also heard your call out at the end of the pod for newscast listeners in World cup countries. I am happy to be Australia if you need someone from there, although I recognise an Australian politician might not be what you had in mind. That said, I might be a low cred choice only because I missed the first match, Australia 2, Turkey nil on Sunday, because I was at an electorate event. Let me know what you think. And that email was from the Australian MP, Zoe MacKenzie, a member of the Liberal Party for the Division of Flinders in Victoria, and she's on newscast now. Hello, Zoe.
- [22:15]
Gary O'Donoghue
Hello.
- [22:16]
Zoe MacKenzie
It's so exciting to join you from 16,000 odd kilometers away.
- [22:19]
Adam Fleming
Well, thank you for listening all that distance.
- [22:22]
Zoe MacKenzie
Well, as I think I said, I've been listening to you for years now, since you were Brexit cast.
- [22:27]
Adam Fleming
Right.
- [22:28]
Zoe MacKenzie
Because Brexit was so interesting for us. I'd also been working in global trade for a long time, so of course it meant a new potential free trade agreement that ultimately was signed. And so what Brexit meant in terms of global trading partner, in terms, you know, reconnecting some of our bonds, I think, with the United Kingdom was really interesting here for Australia. And so I listened to you all through the Brexitcast years. And now back to newscast.
- [22:52]
Adam Fleming
Well, thank you very much. Thanks for staying with us. Let's talk about current things and the social media ban. So obviously that's big news here in the UK because the government's announced this week that they're planning to go ahead with it probably in spring next year. I mean, how is it going in the place that invented it, Australia?
- [23:09]
Zoe MacKenzie
It's. It sometimes feels two steps forward, one step back, insofar as it was a long time coming. You know, I mentioned to you in my email that I had first raised this as an issue in September of 2022. We'd just come off the back of COVID my hometown of Melbourne, had had particularly strict lockdowns over a period of two and three years. And I could see in my own step kids, in my friend's kids, the impact that too much screening and in particular too much social media was having on kids. I think it started a long conversation in the Australian Parliament, which then I think in a similar kind of weird political twist, our leader of our Conservative Party, so the Liberal Party came out and said, right, we're going to do something on this, which then forced the government to have a good hard look at it. They eventually did an inquiry and an investigation into what was going on and then said, we will move to ban, and then gave the platforms 12 months to actually implement a system to ensure 16 year olds would be not entirely de platformed, but de accounted. They couldn't have accounts anymore. You can still be on the platforms, particularly through a web browser portal, if you want to go onto TikTok and things like that. But we figured it was the account that drove the algorithmic push and was more likely to lead to infinite scrolling because it's perfectly attuned to the account holder. And so that's what we targeted. Now that came into effect in December of last year and the first and only sort of report card we've had so far, which was three months in, said that about 5 million accounts had been sort of cancelled. Now that sounds like a lot because we have less than 5 million people aged between 13 and 16 and our age is 16. But what we hear is that now about 30% of kids in that age group still have accounts.
- [25:08]
Adam Fleming
And how's that happened?
- [25:10]
Zoe MacKenzie
Well, we think it's a combination of VPNs, crafty kids grabbing your sister to show her face to the screen. So we haven't implemented sort of proof of age through digital ID or passports or anything like that. We ask the platforms to use their know how to determine the age of the users. And we're very confident they can actually do that because in the year before the ban came into place, TikTok actually cancelled 800,000 accounts in Australia because it was very confident that they were under what is the US age of 13. So we know they can do it and it's just a question of the rigorousness with which they do it. Now, since discussing this in Australia, I have travelled and spoken to either public servants or policy advisors or parliamentarians in Denmark, France, Germany, at the eu, spoken to good folk at the oecd, and just basically because a little market like ours of 26 million people is not quite enough to get the platforms to fully comply.
- [26:18]
Gary O'Donoghue
Right.
- [26:19]
Zoe MacKenzie
Once we bring.
- [26:20]
Adam Fleming
Because they're like, oh, it's only, it's only Australia. It's not like it's the eu, they're huge.
- [26:25]
Zoe MacKenzie
Yeah, we get the whole, you know, if you make this too hard, we will leave. You guys can't. You're much bigger than we are. We're probably much more valuable to them as a market as well. So once Europe comes on board, the platforms sort of have nowhere to run and hide. So I've always been very keen that Europe actually sign up to this as well. And obviously the EU is as well. And you've made this declaration on Monday that you will go down that path and I think there's great overlap. My. My quick review of which platforms are targeted by your change are roughly the same as ours. So again, that will mean those big ones in particular are forced to tackle
- [27:03]
Adam Fleming
this properly on that 30%. Do. Do you think that that's just sort of. It's going to be a fact of life that any jurisdiction that imposes a ban like this, you're probably going to have around about a third of children are able to find a way around it. Or is the goal to sort of drive that down even further?
- [27:18]
Zoe MacKenzie
The goal is to drive it down even further. You know, we're not in the habit of, of passing legislation that we hope it'll be partially addressed. We pass the legislation because that's what we expect the platform. And so the eSafety commissioner here, who has very strong powers in this respect, and indeed, if we believe a platform hasn't taken reasonable steps to comply, they can be fined up to 49.5 million Australian dollars. But, you know, it's not an inconsequential fine to not try hard enough. And again, I suspect the systems will have to get much more robust in terms of making sure that those accounts are closed until the user is 16. And again, as I said, they'll get more robust because your market is bigger, and the European market of 450 million people as well, and it's even bigger still. So we will get there. We will get there in the end.
- [28:11]
Adam Fleming
Okay. And just in terms of how it works in Australia, and I'm thinking about practicalities here, one of the things that people have raised this week as a concern is the logical extension of this, that every user has to prove their age in some way whenever they want to use one of these apps. And so actually, that's the way that you stop young people having access to them is by making everyone have to prove their age all the time. It doesn't sound to me like that's the thing that happens in Australia.
- [28:37]
Zoe MacKenzie
No, it's not. And may I say, there were lots of kind of furfies and panic stories circulated at the time. You know, lots of cries of free speech and all this sort of stuff. And of course, what we're trying to do at the heart of this reform is to create a market for safer social media. This was a conversation I had with my friends from the CDU in Germany recently. They said, well, we don't like to interfere in a market like this. And I said, yes, but just think about it this way. What we're trying to do is create a safer market in the same way that we have safe markets for solar panels and safe markets for home heaters and ovens and safe markets for cars. It's just trying to ask for a safer market for social media for teenagers, because the evidence of damage is just too great. There's a tipping point at which legislators must act, and we have done that. And over time, it will get better. It's probably taking longer. To be fair, I'm in the opposition. We would have liked it to have been done better. We would like it to have been done swifter. But we understand, as the sort of first mover in this space, that it will take time. And again, as I've said, I'll be much happier when we've got bigger markets taking similar reforms, because then your metas and your Googles and others will have to find a way to do it.
- [29:54]
Adam Fleming
And then one of the other concerns being raised this week is the sort of the YouTube science lecture complaint. What if you're limiting access to YouTube for students who are really into a particular subject and you're denying them access to Nobel Prize winners doing lectures and posting them online?
- [30:12]
Zoe MacKenzie
And that's exactly the case here. I heard your podcast yesterday, day before, with your Education Minister equivalent and just the importance of some of these tools as educators, education tools, and which side of the line you need to fall. So YouTube is used across the education system in Australia now, and so you can't deny access, you know, it's part of the curriculum. So what happens now is kids can click on a particular YouTube link and they can go find things. The only thing they can't do is have an account. Now some people said, well, hold on, I actually like to have an account for my child before because as the parent I could monitor it. And that if that was every parent and every parent had the time to be able to do that, we probably wouldn't have a problem. But it was overwhelmingly the parents who came to us and said, I had no idea what rabbit holes my child was going into, I had no idea how quickly this could take hold of my child's mental health. And so you'd have happy, independent, resilient child and six weeks later a very, very precariously depressed child. And the parents felt unable to either monitor or guide because of course all of our algorithmic feeds are completely idiosyncratic. We are a bit similar to you at the moment. We're having great fluctuations in Australian politics here with some more right wing party, particularly around things like migration. People ring me in a panic and go, oh my God, there's all this terrible stuff online and it's.
- [31:40]
Adam Fleming
Which you'd never seen.
- [31:42]
Zoe MacKenzie
And I go, I don't see any. I'm like, I'm like the Pollyanna politician. I don't see any of this. I was like, good stuff and good debate, interesting debate. And what's happening in the United Kingdom in social media. But that's because that's the stuff I'm interested in. Right. So you get fed what you're interested in and so people think that their kids are just seeing what they're saying and it's like, no, your child is in a very different place and unless you're sitting on their shoulder, you're not going to see where your child is digitally.
- [32:06]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, I'm just wondering how this is going to work in the uk because now that you talk, you talk us through very clearly that it's about accessing a CAT accounts as opposed to accessing the services. Because the way our ministers talk about it here is it's that a 14 year old set of eyeballs will never get sight of TikTok in any form until those eyeballs turn 16, which is a slightly grim way of talking about it, I realize, but. And actually you're. That's not what you do.
- [32:33]
Zoe MacKenzie
No. So we basically say no accounts, but that means you have an account and you want to show it to your child. You're welcome to do that, particularly if you can be there with them and talk about what they're seeing. And that would be an ideal case. And again, they can go to the platforms themselves and they can go on YouTube, they can probably go on Reddit without an account, again, just to explore, to see what they want to discover there. And so we thought that was because so much of the. How to put it, the deleterious effects are embodied in that algorithmic feed. That's the dopamine loop, that's the infinite scrolling. And we don't have a history of online regulation the way you do. So obviously you've got the Digital Services act and the Digital Markets Act. In the EU context, you've got similar things. You've got much more stringent online safety laws or a history of them than we do. So Australia's approaching online regulation cautiously and methodologically. You know, we have a real opposition amongst the population to digital id. People don't like it, they don't trust it. Various efforts to have sort of created, you know, an Australia card for identity, things like that, or even health records. Australians go, no, thanks, don't want it. So we have not had a history of intervention in this space the way you have. So I imagine you can be. You've got greater social license for regulation in the UK than we do. So we did what is a fairly light touch version. All the onus is on the platforms. No child who manages to get themselves on TikTok at age 13 is ever going to get a tap on the shoulder from any authority. It's the platforms that are the ones who need to comply.
- [34:11]
Adam Fleming
That's what the pressure is applied to.
- [34:13]
Gary O'Donoghue
Yeah.
- [34:13]
Adam Fleming
And then in terms of the list of apps, because you have in your legislation, there's a list of the services that you're talking about. Has anything been added to that list since the ban was introduced?
- [34:25]
Zoe MacKenzie
So when we started the parliamentary inquiry into this particular topic and we looked at what should be on it, the list was actually much shorter. So it was Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok and X. And then they have subsequently added Kick, Reddit threads, Twitch and YouTube. Now, YouTube was the one that was like, oh, careful, because this is quite an educational tool. But that's, you know, the eSafety commissioner provided advice to say most of the really shocking, violent extremist content that young people are seeing is via YouTube and that's why it was added. But I think YouTube Kids is still out. So you can have an account on YouTube kids because guess what, it's a safe social media platform.
- [35:15]
Adam Fleming
And again, because it's been designed to be.
- [35:17]
Zoe MacKenzie
Yeah, exactly. If you make all these platforms safe, there is no problem like Meta having said to us in our committee, it can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done. Launched Instagram teens a couple of weeks before we finish the inquiry. So supposedly can't be done. Can be done and is being done. Right. So you know, people are getting pushed towards Instagram teams just for a safer platform. And again, if we create a market in which platforms are safe for kids, we don't need this kind of heavy handed legislation. You know, as a conservative politician, I hate this kind of stuff. I'd much rather it be an informed conversation between parents and kids. But parents came to us almost uniformly and said I've lost control. And Covid sped that up.
- [36:01]
Lyse Doucet
Right.
- [36:02]
Zoe MacKenzie
All those months of sitting at home supposedly doing schoolwork on the couch, but actually control deleting oneself into YouTube or something way more fun, Netflix, whatever it was, all the good habits that I had instilled in my household with my step kids for balanced, moderated Internet and screen based use, it all went out the window.
- [36:23]
Adam Fleming
So I'm just imagining in a world in eight years time when there's a sort of new normal being reached in Australia, would you maybe potentially repeal this legislation if it wasn't needed anymore?
- [36:32]
Zoe MacKenzie
If we didn't need it. Well, hopefully by then my lot are in power and we can have a good look at it. And if we don't need it because all platforms are considered to be safe or they're just naturally age graded and the algorithm knows this well enough to know this person's not interested in that stuff. You don't need to give them that, that extra slightly more extreme or slightly more daring version of what it is they're interested in. Like you could make better algorithms, you could make safer algorithms, you could, you know, good old days. Remember 2007 Facebook, that was just a chronological feed of your friends stuff. You know, that's something that's meant to be available in the European context. I know. I've tried to get my phone to give me 2007 chronological feed Facebook because I really would like to know what my friends are doing instead. I'm giving.
- [37:18]
Adam Fleming
Well, no, I remember that brief period with Instagram in the UK where you'd get to the end of it and say you're fully up to date now and it was a proper speed bump to stop looking at more stuff.
- [37:28]
Zoe MacKenzie
You were at the end of your feed.
- [37:29]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. I'm so glad you listened to our Bridget Phillipson conversation because it was a very mind expanding chat. And actually Bridget Phillipson is not known for necessarily doing those kind of conversations, so it was a nice treat for me. What did you think about her whole thing about, oh, children are gonna have to get used to that very old fashioned thing of being bored. I know.
- [37:47]
Zoe MacKenzie
Don't you love the being bored conversation? We have a beautiful set of. Because, you know, we've passed this reform. Some of the ads that come up to my, you know, Pollyanna politician feed, because it knows I like these things, is kids talking about, it's meant to be kids from the 90s talking about all the fun things they did. And they said, what do you mean? Like we'd sit in front of a screen for eight hours a day. I got a bike to ride, man. And it's just this beautiful nostalgic reminiscence of our childhoods. But I was thinking, you know, I was listening to a podcast and thinking, what did I do when I was little when I was bored? I think I just stomped around the house and said to my mother repeatedly, I am bored.
- [38:21]
Adam Fleming
And she goes, which I'm sure she
- [38:22]
Zoe MacKenzie
loves, eventually you'll find something to do. And we did. Right. But we had much more outdoors lives. I hesitate to say I felt that our lives were safer, but I'm not sure if that's true. Like if you read the books of Jonathan Haidt, Greg Lukianov, Jane Twenge, you know, we've moved into this kind of safetiest obsession and we think the kids are safer on the couch with the device in their hand than they may have been on a bike down at the mall or hanging out of the shops or at the park with their friends. And I don't know which is true. I do know that we are all now, as parents, incredibly focused on physical threats to our kids and who they might be running into down the street. But we don't know who they're running into on the iPad either. I sat in the last parliament on the Parliamentary Joint Committee for Intelligence and National Security. Well, those devices are the number one vector for radicalization and extremism as well. And so in our comments and the inquiry that we did on this social media plan, it wasn't just about mental health. It wasn't just about the way kids are spending their time. It was also that this thing is a vector for radicalization. I think we've had a Minister for Home affairs say on the weekend, I'm far more worried about what's coming over the browser than what's coming over the border. And without wanting to do his publicity, that's a pretty good explanation of where we're at. So anyway, my hope is that progressively we all move towards safer social media, safer online lives, safer platforms. And that doesn't mean we ban the dark sides of the Internet. It just means we go into these places knowing how to stay on the side that interests us and not getting force fed to something that doesn't interest us.
- [40:19]
Adam Fleming
Zoe, this has been so interesting and thank you very much for your time. Obviously, the price of entry is that you're now our supporter reporter in Australia. So how, how is, how is Team Australia doing?
- [40:31]
Zoe MacKenzie
Well, we're pumped.
- [40:32]
Adam Fleming
Right.
- [40:32]
Zoe MacKenzie
So our next game is Saturday morning, our time at 5am against the USA.
- [40:38]
Gary O'Donoghue
Right.
- [40:39]
Zoe MacKenzie
So we're not messing around at this point in time. So. But it's really good, it's. How to put it, we tend not to be much of us not as soccer loving as you guys are. And so when it comes around it's like surprise World cup. And, and everyone gets very excited, throw themselves into it. I should have worn my Matilda shirt. I'm an idiot. I've got to wear the girls soccer team shirt that I have. But you know, people really throw themselves into it. And so there are lots of parties being organized and we're used to having to get up in the middle of the night to watch something big on the other side of the world. So parties being organized and it's the middle of winter here, remember for Saturday morning and so everyone's pretty excited. So we will see how we go. We never expect to win this thing, but you know, it doesn't stop us
- [41:23]
Adam Fleming
getting all sucker crazy into the spirits.
- [41:25]
Zoe MacKenzie
Yeah. So it'll be good fun on Saturday morning.
- [41:28]
Adam Fleming
Good stuff. Well, enjoy. And Zoe, thank you so much for another mind expanding conversation. It's been a very brainy week this week and thank you so much for listening to us for such a long time as well from such a long way away.
- [41:39]
Zoe MacKenzie
Oh, thank you so much for such a beautiful and important and educative podcast that helps me be really smart in my day job.
- [41:46]
Adam Fleming
So with Zoe, the Australian MP representing Australia, that means we've now got supporter reporters in Australia. We've got class in Sweden, Robert in Ecuador, Caroline in Germany, Nathan in the usa, Prima who is double hatting for Iran and Switzerland, which basically sums up least two sets a day on Friday, and Lisa herself, who of course represents Canada. So still a fair few countries to go. So if you have a link to any of the others competing in the summer's World cup, then you know where to send your pitch. As in not a football pitch, but pitch like I'm pitching you something. Anyway, it's newscastbc.co.uk or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I look forward to hearing from you. And just a reminder, the next episode of Newscast will be a live bile action special from 7 o' clock in the morning on Friday, which you will be able to listen to on the live news stream on BBC Sounds, where you will also be able to get the overnight results program hosted by Laura K. And Alex F. And if you want to listen on your smart speaker, just say ask BBC Sounds to play live news. And then we'll be putting up that episode as a podcast for you to listen to as normal on Friday morning. See you then. Bye bye.
- [43:02]
Zoe MacKenzie
Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [43:05]
Gary O'Donoghue
Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe? Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make
- [43:19]
Zoe MacKenzie
its way to your phone.
- [43:32]
Gary O'Donoghue
Who's actually won the Iran war?
- [43:34]
Zoe MacKenzie
I'm Tristan Redman.
- [43:35]
Lyse Doucet
And I'm Asma Khalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. The US and Iran say they've struck a deal to end the war, but
- [43:45]
Gary O'Donoghue
a key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting and is the situation better, worse or
- [43:53]
Lyse Doucet
the same for the region and Iran?
- [43:55]
Zoe MacKenzie
For the full story, check out the
- [43:56]
Lyse Doucet
global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.