Loading summary
Transcript93 lines
- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Kiwico Advertiser
This episode sponsored by Kiwico Need a better answer to I'm bored. Kiwico replaces free time with hands on fun. With Kiwico, kids get projects delivered right to the door so they can build, test, tinker, create and actually see how things work. One day it's science, another day art. Next thing you know, I'm bored turns into look what I made. Each Kiwico crate comes ready to go with all the materials and instructions included. No planning, no supply run, no wait. Do we have glue? Just open the box and let curiosity take over. Whether your kid loves science, art, engineering or making something from scratch, Kiwico makes learning feel like play. Visit kiwico.com to learn more. Kiwico Seriously fun. Hands on learning.
- [00:59]
Ridwell Advertiser
This episode sponsored by Ridwell Ever tossed something into your recycling bin and just hoped it would get recycled? That's wish cycling. And most of the time those items don't actually get recycled. Ridwell makes it simple to get it right. Ridwell helps you recycle the things your curbside bin doesn't take, like plastic bags, snack wrappers, pill bottles and bottle caps. Getting started is easy. Just order a starter kit, fill the bags, send them back for free, and Ridwell takes care of the rest. Start today@ridwell.com
- [01:31]
Adam Fleming
in this episode of Newscast, we're going to focus on the aftermath of that brutal knife attack that happened in Belfast on Monday night. What happened on Tuesday night was, well, it's been described as thuggery by lots of people, very dramatic pictures of a bus and some people's houses being set on fire in the city. That led to lots of appeals for calm from across the political, political spectrum. And as we're recording this episode of Newscast on Wednesday tea time, we're waiting to see if there's a second night of disorder. But we will bring you up to date with everything we do know on this episode of Newscast Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [02:06]
Kieran Dunbar
Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [02:13]
Adam Fleming
Six.
- [02:13]
BBC Podcast Promoter
Seven.
- [02:14]
Kieran Dunbar
Yeah, it's supposed to be me. As a doctor Daddy has has also a special connotation. Thinking about it like a panto helped.
- [02:22]
Chris Mason
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:24]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. And in terms of what we learned today, a lot of it came from the first court appearance in this case. The accused person is a 30 year old Sudanese man now named as Hadi Alodid. He was in court on Wednesday lunchtime. He appeared, well, he appeared by video link, actually. He was charged with possession of a knife in a public place and also threatened to kill an NHS worker. We also learned in court that the victim is a man in his 440s called Stephen Ogilvie. He's still in hospital. He has lost his left eye as a result of this attack. He's got quite serious damage to his right eye along with injuries to his neck and back. And Al Odid has been refused bail and he's remanded in custody. And we will next appear in Court on 8 July. So in about four weeks time. Separately, we got a statement from Stephen Ogilvy, the victim's family, on Wednesday afternoon. They said they want to make it absolutely clear that the unrest in Belfast on Tuesday night was not welcome. They said that peaceful protest is the only way forward. They also paid tribute to the many migrants who live in Northern Ireland and contribute to the country's healthcare system or the hospitality sector. And they said that Northern Ireland depends on those migrants being there. And they also paid tribute to the passersby who intervened on Monday night, one of them with a hurling stick to try and stop this attack getting any worse. Stephen Ogilvy's family saying they're pretty sure their relative would have died if it hadn't been for the bravery of those bystanders, some of whom also filmed it, which is why so many people have seen what appeared to happen on that street in Belfast on Monday night. But let's look at some of the issues that have been raised by this incident and the aftermath. Chris is on the line from Westminster. Welcome back, Chris.
- [04:17]
Chris Mason
Hello.
- [04:18]
Adam Fleming
And we're joined by Kieran Dunbar, who's presenter of the Bell Tell podcast, which is the podcast of the Belfast Telegraph. Hello, Kieran.
- [04:25]
Kieran Dunbar
Hello, Adam. Thank you very much.
- [04:26]
Adam Fleming
Well, thanks for coming on. As our two podcasts merge. So Kieran, I mean, if we just rewind a little bit as a Belfast resident, I mean, how did this stories first start unfolding for you?
- [04:37]
Kieran Dunbar
Well, just to be clear, I do present the Bell to Help podcast and I do work for the Belfast Telegraph in Belfast. I actually live myself slightly to the south of the city, so I don't
- [04:49]
Adam Fleming
actually live in accuracy. Okay. As somebody who spends a lot of time in Belfast, then, well, I mean,
- [04:56]
Kieran Dunbar
I became aware of the knife incident on Tuesday morning. And you know, and I know, you know, we go into journalist mode, we go into podcast mode and we put out the best podcast we we could on the information that was available, we would have known from experience that there was a prospect of violence and protests and rioting. Because of that, we managed to get that podcast done. And, you know, using our journalist who had gone to the scene that night. I remained and worked to around 7 o' clock last night because I was covering a major court case we have here. And when I was driving out, I found myself confronted by a large crowd on one of the roads in north Belfast. Black clad men with their faces covered. And I looked at it and then I realized there were other people fleeing towards me. And I recognized one of them as a photographer, Mal McCann with the Irish News. He was running with his photography gear. Journalists were fleeing because they were being chased and as I say, chased with menace by men, perhaps young people, I'm not sure, with their faces covered. There was a helicopter in the air. I believe people have seen this on other outlets. I. I can remember very well because I realized from experience I need to get out of here. And the car in front of me, listen, riots and these things, they're not for beginners. The car in front of me had frozen solid in the street. And I realized I just put my hand on my horn and I suppose I may have said some expletives. Get out of the road, we need to get out of here. And then on to open empty roads on one side and on the other side, complete, you know, a complete traffic jam. So that's, that's when I sort of. I was very aware that it was going to be a very hot night.
- [06:59]
Adam Fleming
And then. Kieran, We've been hearing all sorts of stories of people who were caught up in this often in quite a scary way.
- [07:07]
Kieran Dunbar
Yes. Now, the word has been used by nationalist politicians to describe what we saw. And it is a very loaded word everywhere. And it's a very loaded word in Northern Ireland because of our history. And that is the word pogrom. I believe when you look at the dictionary definition of the word pogrom, you know, people attempting to remove a certain group of people without targeting any particular individual and doing this on multiple occasions in the same place. I believe that's a pogrom. And I believe that we did see a small scale program in Belfast last night where groups of men. And I think this is the worst part of it because, yes, property was destroyed, of course it was. But we saw groups of young men, for the most part, banging on doors, checking for foreigners, as they said themselves, and telling them to get out. And several stages, many houses actually. In fact, I'm not Sure. I don't have the exact number that houses were burned. We saw police officers and fire brigade staff rescuing people from those houses after they had been deliberately set on fire. So those were shocking incidents. And I think there's widespread shock, fear and revulsion across the board. One thing I have to say, from listening to people today, from talking to people today, the fear in Belfast. The fear in Belfast, and it has been over the last 24 hours, not of migrants, not of asylum seekers, but of thugs on the street. That is not to say that there isn't a real fear after what happened on Monday night. And that is not to say there's not a real anger across the communities, across all communities in Belfast after what happened. But the fear has quickly switched to these marauding gangs.
- [08:53]
Chris Mason
That's the thing, isn't it, Kieran, here in that, you know, anger, given what happened the other night is understandable. But to hear you there describing the, you know, the reality in your city last night and the language that, you know, you've chosen to use to describe the scale of what we've seen and then what that says about your fellow citizens and what that says in terms of how people feel about their city is really quite something. When we see those images, when we see at least the motivation of some of those involved. Yes.
- [09:32]
Kieran Dunbar
And people were intimidated on social media before this. There was kind of an order went out. Turn off your doorbell cameras. No filming. And some of the filming that we do see, we can hear people screaming. No, turn off that camera. No filament. No filament. We told you, no filame. And journalists were intimidated from several sites. And journalists who had come across from England as well were told to leave several areas. So this was not a protest, as in like a protest. If you have a protest, you tell the media. You want the media to see. You want to make a point, you have placards, you make yourself available. There was none of that. This was intended to happen behind closed doors. Now, that's not the way it works in the modern era because of mobile phones and because someone's always gonna video something. But what happened was, clearly it built up. There was a high degree of planning and that that level of violence and targeted violence spilled out onto the streets.
- [10:30]
Adam Fleming
And as we're speaking now, Kieran, and it's about quarter to seven on Wednesday evening, you basically can't get a bus or a train in that area right now.
- [10:38]
Kieran Dunbar
No, you can't get a bus or a train anywhere in Northern Ireland.
- [10:40]
Adam Fleming
I saw the whole Northern Ireland Oh, I, I heard that there was a bit of, a, bit of a pause on public transport. I didn't realize it was the whole of Northern Ireland.
- [10:48]
Kieran Dunbar
There has been no public transport since 5 o' clock today and in actual fact, most of it shut down before that. I saw a story up on Twitter from a former BBC colleague of mine, a BBC colleague of yours, and he was saying that he met an elderly lady in Derry who she was trying to get back to Newton Abbey, near to Belfast, and she said, I just can't get home. What am I going to do? So, I mean, a lot of people are dependent on public transport, but the city of Belfast itself was emptied around lunchtime today. People were told to come home and to go home and the shutters came down. So in a sense, Belfast is shut with all of the costs that come with that.
- [11:26]
Chris Mason
How much? Kieran, has there been a conversation, national conversation, a political conversation in Northern Ireland in, in recent years about the, the scale, significant or otherwise, of demographic change of migrants from beyond Northern Ireland, beyond the island of Ireland, beyond the UK Perhaps beyond Europe coming to Northern Ireland and the extent to which there's been a conversation, a debate, Any sense of anger about whether or not that's been in any sense too much or unmanageable?
- [12:02]
Kieran Dunbar
Well, this debate has spilled over via social media, via, from Britain. It has come across the border via social media, up from Dublin. It has come across from Europe also as well. And obviously it has come across from the United States of America. Now, with all due respect to Northern Ireland, it isn't the most attractive destination in the world. Our numbers, in terms of migration, there is no mass migration into Northern Ireland. Our numbers of minorities and migrants is very, very low. Let's be honest, some people perceive there to be mass migration. The facts don't stand up to that. However, of course, certain minorities may be concentrated in certain areas and that creates impressions in people's minds as it does all over the world. In terms of the debate, I would say that it has not been mainstream. I haven't said that this is our third year of race related riots. Certainly parties on the Unionist side have been more vocal about these, these things, more worried about these things and more angry about these things. So there is that part of it. Now I just don't believe that mainstream politicians perceive this to be the most important issue. Now for the minority of people who are extremely animated about this, there is no issue more important than migration. And I suppose it's the same story everywhere. Now one of the things we have to say is that yesterday the five major parties here put out a joint statement. That was a very positive event in itself. One of the parties didn't join in that. That was the tuv, the traditional Unionist voice. They have condemned all violence. I have to say that very clearly. But there's always, and however a but, you know, this wouldn't be happening. And the debate now goes, has now seem to focus in their minds at least, and in some other Unionists on this border, the open border. But that open border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is a vital part of the peace process. So in a sense, we always return to Churchill's dreary steeples. It always comes back to us. It always comes back to that border issue.
- [14:19]
Adam Fleming
And, Chris, tonight the UK government is, is quite keen to emphasize that, that even though the border sort of doesn't really exist in law enforcement terms, there is law enforcement around people crossing that border and whether they've got the right to be in Northern Ireland or Ireland.
- [14:36]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And there's two thoughts, I think, that spring out from all of this, one of which, as you, Kieran, were just mentioning, there is a strand of conversation we spend inordinate amounts of time talking about in the context of the Brexit debates. And then the other, if you like, sits in the context of the wider UK debate about migration and asylum seeking, which so often has as its visual backdrop small boats in the English Channel. And of course, the UK has a land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. And courtesy of the Good Friday Agreement and all of those conversations that followed around the Brexit, the Brexit debates, that is a border that to all intents and purposes is, you know, you can cross without barely noticing you've crossed it. Clearly the roadsides change, et cetera, et cetera, but it isn't an international frontier of the type that you might imagine for all the reasons we spent eons discussing on Brexitcast. So it raises questions and it has raised questions. There's loads and loads of questions to the Prime Minister's team and the Downing street team after Prime Minister's questions at lunchtime today around the what's known as the Common Travel area, the capacity for people to travel between the Republic and the. And the UK very easily, including from the Republic to the UK whilst you are still on the island of Ireland, in other words, driving, or in the case of this particular incident, getting on a bus and going from Dublin to Belfast. And certainly the government is making it clear, as we record, having encountered a Shed load of questions at lunchtime and not really offered much of an answer to many of them of what they're doing around immigration enforcement in particular in Northern Ireland. In fact, as I speak to you, I'm still reading this note, so I'll have a proper read, fill you in a couple of minutes. But in essence, there is clearly right now a lot of scrutiny coming in the direction of the government in London around a border that is very easy to cross.
- [16:48]
Adam Fleming
And it's interesting what you were saying, Kieran, though, that Unionist politicians are much more comfortable saying that that border should maybe exist more than it does. And actually we got an example of that today at Westminster. The leader of the DUP at Westminster, Gavin Robinson, said, this speaker yesterday, I
- [17:04]
Gavin Robinson
shared my concern that community cohesion stood on the precipice. The North Belfast attack on Monday was medieval, it was sadistic, and it's sadly been viewed by millions in this country as reprehensible as it was. The outrageous violence, intimidation and community damage carried out last night in my constituency and in other parts of Northern Ireland require the strongest condemnation. It is impossible to share concerns about damage to our British values and then act in a way that tarnishes the very thing we should want to protect. The government's job, our collective job, is to act to protect our country and to defend our borders. The Prime Minister knows that the man charged entered our country illegally. He passed through two safe countries and attained asylum in record time. Will he meet with me urgently to discuss the steps he and his government will take to ensure our values are enforced, that the rule of law in this country sustains, and that he protects and closes the open, porous border between our country and the Irish Republic.
- [18:27]
Adam Fleming
And Kieran, a few things for you there. Just the idea of closing the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, either partially or fully, that's just a non starter, isn't it?
- [18:38]
Kieran Dunbar
That's pie in the sky. I mean, it just can't happen for two reasons. I mean, politically, that would be the end of the peace process. Now, when I say the end of the peace process, I don't mean a return to widespread republic. That's not what I mean. But. But it would end.
- [18:52]
Adam Fleming
The current settlement.
- [18:53]
Kieran Dunbar
Yeah, the current settlement that would end. And also we have to look at the practicality of it. You know, during the Troubles, there was 30,000 British troops and 20,000 RUC men of one description or another. There were watchtowers, there were helicopters, there were armored cars, the bridges were blown up and it didn't close the border it's simply not possible. So I mean, so you have to put it like that. Now yes, you could make it a more difficult, you could make it very challenging to people, but it is not realistic. Having said that, having said that,
- [19:31]
Chris Mason
all
- [19:31]
Kieran Dunbar
of these incidents we've seen in recent days and hours have happened in loyalist areas. However, that is not to say that there isn't anti immigrant feeling and concerns over immigration, if you want to put it like that, in nationalist areas too. Now there are different political dynamics in that, but there does seem to be in some small minority perhaps are coming together in minds with loyalism between this sort of section of nationalist feelings and we can get back to that.
- [20:06]
Adam Fleming
In other words, I mean there's been pictures of people going out and getting angry about this and you can see Irish flags and British flags together, which you wouldn't normally see basically.
- [20:17]
Kieran Dunbar
Yes. And we saw protests in Dublin today also from people who describe themselves as patriots. Now some of those people, many of those people may actually you may find may be very strongly in favor of partition. They may have, they may have taken that journey and those people might say, well there's illegal immigration coming into the Republic of Ireland from the UK from Northern Ireland. And you might find that some of those people would also like to see this hard border and never mind what northern nationalists and people in the border areas think. I mean we don't know what the future holds. But I do think as we speak I find it very unlikely that there'll be anything more than a symbolic hardening of the border.
- [21:01]
Chris Mason
And on exactly that point just picking through what the folk in government here in London are saying around the questions that they're facing around the common travel area and the nature of the, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. So they are saying the number of asylum seekers in supported accommodation in Northern Ireland has decreased by 6% under this government from 2 and a half thousand in June of 2024 to 2,300 in March of this year. They then talk about something called Operation Combi, which they describe as a multi agency crackdown targeting abuse of the common travel area. And then point to the arrests that have been made in the last couple of years. 250 organised criminals as they're described and immigration offenders who they say have abused the common travel area. But that then gets to questions we don't have the answer to. But Kieran, you were touching on there, which is on what basis did this individual get into the Republic of Ireland? Then once in the Republic of Ireland has managed to travel to has managed to travel to Northern Ireland and from that point on then sought asylum, was granted refugee status and was given leave to remain until 2028, and we're told, had not kind of crossed the desks of any authorities, not least the police, prior to. Earlier this week. So there's quite a lot of subtleties and details to unpick, either in this particular case or indeed you might apply to anyone else around and their precise status in the various places, not least the Republic that they, if you like, carried at the point that they were there and therefore was there a. You know, did they arrive illegally in the uk, albeit without ever encountering, because of the nature of the border, the kind of thing you would encounter if you were crossing the Channel, that is Border Force, or indeed if you arrived at an airport, I. E. Border Force, and then you go through the process of applying for asylum.
- [23:07]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. What I'd like some clarity on is, does a person who arrives in the UK via the Common travel area with Ireland, are they counted as an illegal arrival because they arrived onto UK soil, Northern Ireland, legally because they crossed the border that doesn't exist. Where they're illegal, in my mind, would be arriving in Dublin. And as you said, Chris, we don't know. We don't know anything about actually that. That. That border crossing.
- [23:31]
Chris Mason
And because so much of UK political debate around illegal immigration and asylum seeking, and they are. They're not always the same thing, of course, but is focused on the Channel and that desire, that law passed by the Conservatives to make that crossing illegal, does the same thing apply if you have crossed a border that is effectively, for the sake of this conversation, sort of invisible or doesn't involve, you know, border force, and then you apply for asylum and you go through that asylum process in a. In a conventional. In a conventional way. So, I mean, this is. I mean, I think the fact that we're getting to some of this, we're asking these questions and the government is attempting to offer answers, whilst a lot of the questions, by the way, they don't have answers to. Like, how many people do claim asylum in Northern Ireland having arrived from the Republic. Yeah.
- [24:27]
Adam Fleming
Because there's a category in the stats that includes people arriving from the Common travel area, but also includes people from other routes, too. And you can't disentangle the people who have crossed the border from Ireland from the other routes that are in that category, even though that's a separate category compared to small boats or people arriving at airports.
- [24:44]
Kieran Dunbar
Quite.
- [24:44]
Chris Mason
And given all of the things we've discussed on this episode and previous ones about why the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is as it is, it seems likely, Kieran, as you were saying, that there is a limited amount in practical terms that the UK government, or indeed the Irish government would be able to do without changing that border to something that wouldn't be politically sustainable.
- [25:08]
Kieran Dunbar
I'm sure someone could think of something, I suppose, more cooperation, more cross border cooperation. I'm sure the Nationalist parties in the north would be. That's the solution that they would like to put forward. I think it's very important to say we know that this individual, this person who has been charged arrived into Dublin airport via Paris. So I mean, he didn't get on the plane in Paris without a passport, et cetera, et cetera. We just in case listeners might realize was it, to my knowledge, we don't have any sort of small boat situation in Ireland. The journey would be simply too treacherous. Now obviously people will get into the state, into the Republic of Ireland and into Northern Ireland by illicit means. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but it would be extremely difficult to do so because you're arriving by large ferries with ID checks and by, by, by air as well. So, so that's, that's a situation that, which, which we wouldn't have in Ireland. And people would, people supporters of, of immigrants rights would point that out that, you know, they would say that in their view, because of that, then there is no one illegal in Ireland. Whereas to counter the rhetoric where people simply use the, the word illegal, it's not an adjective but a noun.
- [26:36]
Adam Fleming
And Kieran, just going back to what actually happened on the day itself on Monday night, the area of Belfast where it happened. I'm always very aware whenever I go to Belfast. Every neighbourhood, every street sort of has a story or a backstory to it. Can you tell us a bit about the area where it happened and whether the geography has a part to play in all of this?
- [26:57]
Kieran Dunbar
Yes, this area would be described as a working class area. It has also been described to me it is relatively new. The majority of the people living there would. It would be imagined as a nationalist republican area in people's minds, in territorial minds, I suppose. Now there are, as I said, it would be considered to have quite a transient population and there were quite a few people who originated in other countries housed in that area and other people, I suppose, who would not be normally considered to be permanent residents. So there are those issues. Now, there was a stabbing in the street in this area last year. I mean, this street would have its troubles, but it's off the Crumland Road, which is just in North Belfast, adjacent to the Shankle Road. It would be very close to what we would call an interface. And that is basically a large wall dividing Protestant communities and Catholic communities. This area would have been on the Catholic, is on the Catholic side of one of those barriers.
- [28:13]
Adam Fleming
And are there other things going on beyond the kind of the usual community tensions in Northern Ireland and in Belfast that make this place stand out? I'm just thinking, is it a place where people really struggle to get on the housing ladder or is it where the cost of living is really, really biting?
- [28:31]
Kieran Dunbar
I wouldn't say it stands out in terms of North Belfast. No, in terms of the cost of living, that's out with some very middle class areas. That's a near universal problem in Belfast. And yes, in terms of housing, there's a lot of pressure on housing and north Belfast has been for a very long time. And when we talk about housing pressures, I talked about that barrier, I talked about that wall. You need to build houses on both sides of the wall. Nationalist politicians would say that there's a more acute need on the Nationalist side for housing, et cetera, et cetera. And whenever, whenever those barriers move, whenever new housing is developed very, very quickly, perhaps flags will go up, that territory will be claimed. So that's a point been made also in recent days. You know that there are areas in which people from different countries live in, in Belfast which people from a Catholic background couldn't live in. And obviously that may happen vice versa in terms of Protestants living in Catholic areas as well.
- [29:41]
Adam Fleming
Well, and then, Chris, just to stand our conversation, how's this been playing out at Westminster today? Because obviously we had Prime Minister's questions because it's a Wednesday lunchtime, but it wasn't a sort of major feature of that.
- [29:52]
Chris Mason
No, it wasn't. We heard from the Prime Minister in front of the cameras for the first time, expressing, as you would expect, his, his horror at the events of both of the recent evenings, both the initial. The initial attack and then the sort of thuggery that follows after it. What the parallel I was just really struck by, Adam, with Prime Minister's questions today was how similar it was to a week ago in one sentence, in that you had this huge issue dominating the news agenda and the Conservative leader, Cami Badenoch, deciding, judging, that she would rather talk about something else. And she pursued a line of questioning about the defence investment plan and investment in the military and all the rest of it. Which is. Which is a, you know, entirely separate, very important, but entirely separate issue. And I think grounded as it was a week ago when the swirl was all about Henry Novak and the incident in Southampton, both his murder and then also the protesting and all the rest of it that followed, I think a judgment from her that if you are going to make an argument that you don't want to be seen to be, as some would see it, politicizing an issue in this context, where there's a live police investigation in that one, given the amount of tension there was, but also the request of the family to not be seen to sort of politicize it. The only way to do that is to pursue a completely different line of questioning. Now, that's not to say it didn't feature. We heard from the DUP earlier on newscast from Prime Minister's questions. The Liberal Democrat leader, Ed Davy raised it as well. But yeah, I think a bit of a sense, even though there are clearly loads of. Of wider political questions to ask around immigration, around integration, around the common travel area, et cetera, et cetera, as we have discussed. Yeah. Broadly speaking, it was touched on and brushed by, if you like, by the main. The main party leaders, but wasn't dissected in any. The implications weren't really dissected in any great depth.
- [32:01]
Adam Fleming
And in terms of Nigel Farage, how has he been handling this? Because if we're sort of. I know it's not linked to the Novak case because that's a different set of circumstances and a different set of arguments, but it is about an issue about kind of identity and race and security. Yeah.
- [32:17]
Chris Mason
So he wasn't. He's been in the Makerfield constituency on the by election campaign trail. Richard Tice, his deputy, did ask a question at Prime Minister's questions. Strikingly, reform figures have explicitly analyzed directly and immediately condemned violence and the kind of scenes that we have seen whilst raising some of these wider issues. So they described recent Labour and Conservative immigration policy as treacherous, as they described it. So they are willing to lean into some of these wider themes that are undeniably live in the context of. Of what we've seen this week and indeed what we saw last week, for all of the differences that there clearly are between the two things. So, yeah, it is a live question and certainly speaking to lots of folk involved on different sides of the by election tussle in the northwest of England, there is a keen awareness that all of this plays into those conversations and conversations that that reform are sort of more willing to lean into than Some others.
- [33:28]
Adam Fleming
And Kieran, I've been really struck listening to Chief Constable John Butcher, who's the boss of the police service of Northern Ireland. PSNI doesn't mince his words on two things. One, the influence of social media. He says there's just loads of nonsense on social media and he's sort of quite refreshingly honest about his view of what's floating around in the social media ecosystem. And also he very like weighing heavily on the kind of parental peer pressure of saying to families, you've got a job here tonight to stop your extended family going out and burning stuff down.
- [34:04]
Kieran Dunbar
That's it. Behind those masks, many of those will be very young people and if they get a criminal conviction, that will remain with them. But yes, he has been very vocal on the social media thing and I've been, frankly, I've been on Twitter, I have been following this myself on Twitter and Twitter still has its useful use. It's now known as X has its uses because of this. But I have my timeline and I has been flooded with material from people who I am not following and I don't know if they are in Moscow, I don't know if they're in Alabama and I don't know if they're in Belfast, but there's clearly a lot of people delighting in this, these events. And I understand, we understand from the PSNI that these things are organized through social media. There's a lot of disinformation out there. There's disinformation, there's videos going about that you would wonder why. Because the video, the real video is bad enough frankly. And there's an awful lot of mistrust and even hatred of the media and people saying things like, you know, why aren't the media talking about this story? Well, we are. Here we are. And it's top of all of the local outlets here, top of our websites and on the front pages of of our papers. But people are somehow convinced that they are fighting some sort of censorship which is hiding the truth about migration from people and it's really creating a febrile atmosphere.
- [35:40]
Adam Fleming
Okay, well Kieran, thank you very much for chatting to us on newscast when you've got so much of your own work to do. Good to catch up with you.
- [35:46]
Kieran Dunbar
Thanks very much Adam. Thank you very much, Chris.
- [35:57]
BBC Podcast Promoter
She's one of the best selling music artists of all time.
- [36:00]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
Rising to fame as a member of R B group Destiny's Child before launching a solo career that's produced chart topping hits and era defining albums.
- [36:08]
BBC Podcast Promoter
And with a Business empire spanning hair care, whiskey and entertainment.
- [36:12]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
It's fair to say she's more than just an artist. She's a global brand.
- [36:15]
BBC Podcast Promoter
Good Bad Billionaire is taking a closer look at the life and fortune of Beyonce.
- [36:19]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.
- [36:22]
BBC Podcast Promoter
Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
- [36:30]
Adam Fleming
And Chris, before I say goodbye to you, I just need to update you on our latest gimmick.
- [36:35]
Chris Mason
Oh, all right. Okay. Now watch this.
- [36:37]
Adam Fleming
So you know we're going to Edinburgh. Well, Newscast is going.
- [36:39]
Chris Mason
Indeed.
- [36:40]
Adam Fleming
Your invite is still open. And we have asked instead of. Because you remember last year on the flyer, the quotes from the quote, air quote critics, were you Laura and Paddy.
- [36:51]
Chris Mason
Yes.
- [36:52]
Adam Fleming
Sing trademark Laura, Chris and Paddy phrases. This year we're getting newscasters to submit their phrases to go on the poster and the flyer. And it's when do you listen to Newscast?
- [37:01]
Chris Mason
Oh, terrific.
- [37:02]
Adam Fleming
And we've had some very good ones, including somebody who listens to us while he's milking his cows.
- [37:08]
Chris Mason
That's tremendous. I love the idea of being a soundtrack to the. To the. Well, it's quite. Isn't the milking of cows quite a noisy end ever?
- [37:15]
Adam Fleming
I mean, it's noisy in the milking shed, but if you've got your headphones in, you can have the cow noise and us at the same time.
- [37:22]
Chris Mason
I just love the idea. Maybe we could sort of. We could mock this up. Or indeed, maybe, newscaster, you could send us the very sound from the milking shed and then we can do this authentically. I'm trying to imagine, you know, the babble of you and I against the. Against the backdrop of the kind of. That sort of churning and sucking y
- [37:44]
Adam Fleming
kind of squirting thing happens somewhere else. That's the. But the squirting definitely happens in the. In the Milky Way. Yeah.
- [37:51]
Chris Mason
Not churning. Yeah. That's much further down the church.
- [37:53]
Adam Fleming
One of our news. Our correspondent, though, has given us some clues because they say the cows find it utterly fascinating. Classic newscast pun. But that means it's being played out loud. Yeah. And then they add, we never miss it. So we obviously. Moose stamina.
- [38:07]
Chris Mason
That's tremendous. That's. I'm like, I'm now picturing the scene of, you know, it's 4:30 in the morning or whatever, and it's. It's sort of the sun is rising and. And is there some speaker in the shed? I love that idea that we're on some sort of PA system.
- [38:20]
Adam Fleming
Maybe we should come and visit you. If that was your message that you sent to newscastbc.co.uk, or that you WhatsApp to us on 033-01-239480 Chris, I will let you go cause you've got plenty of work to do.
- [38:34]
Chris Mason
Was it a full fat edition today or semi skimmed or UHT or I
- [38:38]
Adam Fleming
don't know, oat soya?
- [38:40]
Chris Mason
Oh yeah, sorry, yes. I should get with 2026, shouldn't I?
- [38:43]
Adam Fleming
Right, bye bye Tara. And I'll be back with another episode of Newscast for you very soon. Bye bye Newscast.
- [38:49]
Newscast Closing Announcer
Newscast from the BBC from one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget you can email email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on +4403301239480. Be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.
- [39:36]
BBC Podcast Promoter
What do Beatles member Sir Paul McCartney,
- [39:38]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
YouTube megastar MrBeast and former Facebook executive
- [39:41]
BBC Podcast Promoter
Sheryl Sandberg all have in common?
- [39:43]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super rich.
- [39:50]
BBC Podcast Promoter
That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.
- [39:53]
Good Bad Billionaire Narrator
Listen now. Search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.