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- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
Chris, have you been keeping up with the controversy on newscast about what the Wigan based snack, the smack barm is?
- [00:07]
Chris Mason
So I would. I mean, I would say it's sort of bread bun, really. The actual. The bread itself. And then into that goes your, you know, your scraps or your bit of fish or your chips or whatever. But these are keenly contested vocabulary, isn't it? Because, I mean, is it tea cake, maybe, or is it my wife who's from the Midlands and say it was a cob?
- [00:26]
Adam Fleming
Well, we've had a message from Amanda in Wigan, who is a newscaster and quite a few newscasters messaged us. But here's Amanda's message. A smack barm indeed also exists and is a battered sliced potato on a barm cake, about £1.20 bargain. You can ask for it with or without Pee Wet, the juices of mushy peas, which are skimmed and served over your choice of delicacy. But as Pee Wet is free, it would just be rude not to. It is a smack barm. A smack from a chip shop is not chips. It's one big slice of potato deep fried in crunchy batter, essentially one big chip on a barm. Please see the attached photo. And there is an attached photo usually served with peas. Love the show. Excited to have all this happening on my doorstep. And Amanda's picture I would describe as a potato fritter in a morning roll with some mushy pea. Very juicy mushy peas on top.
- [01:16]
Chris Mason
Yeah, it looks great from the picture I saw.
- [01:18]
Adam Fleming
Right, let's see what we can serve up in this episode of Newscast, Newscast,
- [01:22]
Alex Forsyth
Newscast from the BBC.
- [01:24]
James Landale
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [01:26]
Adam Fleming
We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [01:31]
James Landale
6. Yeah, it's supposed to be me as
- [01:34]
Adam Fleming
a doctor Daddy has. Has also a special connotation thinking about
- [01:38]
Keir Starmer
it like a panter helped.
- [01:40]
James Landale
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [01:43]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.
- [01:45]
Chris Mason
Hi, it's Chris at Westminster.
- [01:46]
Alex Forsyth
And it's Alex in the newscast studio.
- [01:48]
James Landale
And it's James also in the studio.
- [01:50]
Adam Fleming
And I'm just going to apologize to Alex and James because they were actually sat here, Chris, while you and I were having that bar, smack bar, whatever discussion. And I just thought it was already complicated enough without two other people from other parts of the country intervening. So would you like to have that?
- [02:04]
James Landale
Well, I mean, I. I've literally just come from another studio where I've been talking to an American audience and I said rather Casually that that labor was making a Horlicks of something and suddenly I had to start explaining what a Horlick to an American audience. So I. I understand entirely the need to explain regional, national idiom.
- [02:25]
Adam Fleming
Alex, any local delicacies you'd like to bring to the table? Metaphorically?
- [02:28]
Unidentified Female Newscaster
No.
- [02:28]
Alex Forsyth
It made me hungry. Yes. Sounds lovely.
- [02:31]
Adam Fleming
I wonder, though, is a sort of squished and fried bit of potato a staple of all world cuisines? Yeah, because you get these in Mumbai and they're all spicy and delicious and like, we were like, oh, you can only get it from a British chip shop.
- [02:48]
Alex Forsyth
You're talking about like a version of a hash brown.
- [02:50]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, sort of, Yeah, I suppose it is, yeah. Although now we'll have people saying, oh, hash browns are incredibly specific. Maybe we should do a food podcast. Or not, if that's the pilot. Right. Let's stick to what we know best, which is politics. Chris, it's been. We're now fully into this kind of weird world we've got now of how many Labour leaders are there at one point? I mean, there is one, let's be fair.
- [03:11]
Chris Mason
Yeah. I mean, so look, things have calmed from where we were last week. Definitely have calmed. But we're now into a shadow leadership contest to become Prime Minister. Basically, that's what's underway. We should emphasize, shouldn't we, there isn't a formal contest as yet. No one last week cleared that threshold of 81 MPs, but what you've had in the last 48 hours is Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, and worst streeting, the now former Health Secretary, out and about in public, basically making their case. You've had Andy Burnham at a conference in Leeds today, also talking with every other sentence, or pretty much every sentence, really, once he got going about Makerfield in the northwest of England, and that by election coming up in the next month or so, he'll be confirmed as Labour's candidate, we expect, in the next 24, 48 hours. And then we have this extraordinary contest that will play out, which is a by election of which we are familiar, but where one of the candidates is explicitly tilting to be Prime Minister and potentially Prime Minister within a matter of a matter of weeks, which is. Which is extraordinary.
- [04:25]
Adam Fleming
And so just in terms of how things played out today, we had Keir Starmer going on a visit and he spoke to broadcasters and he was asked about whether he would set out a timetable for his departure. And here's what he said.
- [04:39]
Keir Starmer
No, I'm not going to do that. It is obviously a Very important by election. And can I be really clear, as I was with my staff this morning, it is a fight between labor and Reform. It's a very important fight. I will be backing 100%. Whoever the candidate is not quite chosen yet, but soon to be chosen, whoever the Labour candidate is, I'll be 100% behind them. Whatever views people may have on the direction of the party, that needs to be put to one side. It's an important. By election, let's come together and do what we do as a party best, which is to unite as we campaign.
- [05:14]
Chris Mason
And this is where it all gets a bit head spinning, because here you have Keir Starman, I mean, saying what you'd expect him to say because, you know, he's Labour Prime Minister and of course he's going to say that he backs a Labor candidate in a by election, but here he is saying he'll be 100% behind a labour candidate who. Whose whole tilt is going to be about how, in his view, Labour have failed to make the most of their first couple of years in government and how he would do things differently if he were. If he were prime minister.
- [05:43]
Adam Fleming
I mean, there's a few things I love about that clip. Classic Starmer, sticking to the process of, like, we don't have a candidate yet, which is true, but sort of slightly defying the received wisdom about what's going to happen with the candidate selection. But also, Alex, the reason he was being asked about setting out a timetable for his departure is not just because that was the theme of last week, but lots of people were speculating that over the weekend he was mulling that over himself. And this now suggests that he's come to a conclusion.
- [06:08]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah, because he was at Chequers, which is the Prime Minister's country retreat, basically, over the weekend. And a lot of people did wonder in the wake of what had been said, such a, you know, week of turmoil for the Labour Party with so many people publicly questioning his leadership, whether he might retreat to Checkers, take some counsel from his nearest and dearest, and then come out the beginning of this week and kind of say, yeah, look, all right, I've heard the criticisms, albeit not from everybody, because he's still got his supporters. But I've heard the criticisms and I'm going to set out a timetable. And, you know, because. Because of this very obvious leadership contest which isn't officially but clearly is playing out behind the scenes. But he didn't do that. You know, he said, I'm not going to do that, and said that he would want to fight the next election. I mean, there's a very slight shift in the language there because normally you kind of hear, I will be fighting the next election from Prime Ministers who are in the job, because that's kind of what they say, because they don't want anything to lead to a suggestion they might not be. But I think given the context of where he knows he is and the very active discussions in the Labour Party, he said he would want to fight the next general election. I mean, Chris is right. He couldn't really have said very much differently other than, look, I'm going to get on with the job of governing, which is the message that we've heard come from government since all of this really kicked off in the wake of those bruising election results. But I think he did also clearly acknowledge what was going on, because it would have been just very strange for him not to at least have acknowledged what's played out over the course of the last week or slightly longer.
- [07:31]
Chris Mason
And talking to Labour mps, Adam, today, there are some who are kind of exasperated that he hasn't set out a timetable. There are others who are supporters of Andy Burnham who are glad he hasn't, because they would like Andy Burnham to effectively be able to say on the doorstep that if you vote for Andy Burnham, you can get rid of Keir Starmer. In other words, a very similar bit of campaigning language to the very language that Reform themselves were using in the local and devolved elections of a couple of weeks ago. And I think from those around the Prime Minister, their argument is, look, firstly, no contest has been formally triggered. Secondly, therefore, in the meantime, let's just crack on with governing for as long as they conceivably can. And then thirdly, who knows what the outcome of the by election is, because in a scenario where Andy Burnham doesn't win the by election, where then does the party find itself? Last week might seem like something of a tea party compared with where we might be if Labour failed to win the by election in terms of how the party then reacts to a scenario where Andy Burnham has not won in Makerfield and then where does that leave the Prime Minister? If you then get others who do have a seat at Westminster, then crossing the threshold of 81 MPs and then becoming, and there being a contest.
- [08:45]
Adam Fleming
And in terms of other things happening today, you've alluded it to already, Chris, Andy Burnham, we heard from him at quite some length because he was speaking in Leeds at this Great Northern Investment Summit and I watched it on YouTube about an hour after he'd done the speech. And to me it was almost like he was, you know, those local versions of Monopoly. You get where you can get monopolies.
- [09:05]
Chris Mason
Proudly proud owner of a Yorkshire Dales one, as you might expect, of course.
- [09:08]
Adam Fleming
Of course. I'm sure there's one person who bought that because he was just listing all the places that are in the constituency of Makerfield. Just really proved to everyone that he knows those streets and he knows it's not just a place called Bakerfield. There's all sorts of different neighborhoods and different villages in that. In that area. He was just being hyper, hyper local, which I suppose is what you would do if you were vying to be elected for the constituency.
- [09:32]
Chris Mason
And to be fair, you know, he's lived locally for, for a long time and does know, you know, does know the area. But he was absolutely, as you say, name checking all sorts of places that even at that kind of conference with a gathering of leaders from north of the north of England, referring to lots of places that I suspect plenty of people in the hall just because they're, you know, relatively small communities in one part of the northwest of England wouldn't themselves be familiar with.
- [09:55]
Alex Forsyth
I suspect he's acutely conscious of the. The criticism that will undoubtedly be levelled against him by his political opponents that, you know, this idea that Andy Burnham sort of treating this like a political game. And I think what he's trying to show is, no, I have a real keen interest in this area and have done for some time. And actually the substance of what he was saying was also very heavily focused on the north of Eng and what he was outlining as his sort of policy platform, which he believes would address some of the kind of entrenched issues in the north of England and towns and cities.
- [10:26]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. Alex, what are we learning about what his, his platform is? And I'm thinking about his platform as the leader of the country rather than the, yeah, it's Monopoly player for Makerfield.
- [10:36]
Alex Forsyth
He's sort of trying to run a bit of a dual message, I think, in this campaign because clearly everybody knows what's happening. Anti Burnham wants to seat in Parliament so he can challenge Keir Starmer for the leadership of the Labour Party. Let's just be upfront about that because that's just what's going on here. But what he's trying to do is make a pitch to the constituents of that area at the same time as set out his wider policy platform. And it's not the easiest thing to do, but I think a couple of themes are really emerging so far. So this idea that he likes, the idea of public ownership of utilities, that's one big theme re industrialization of areas like in the northwest and the north of England. No real detail on exactly what that might mean was spelled out today, but a lot of talk around that. And another big one is the devolution agenda. So this idea of shifting power out from Whitehall to communities around the country, which is actually something that this government has started doing with its. It's got. Had a big program. It wants lots of mayors, like Andy Burnham is of Greater Manchester and lots of other places, so we can hand power out so people can have a real influence in shaping their communities. So they're the kind of themes. But I think a lot of that's going to come under real scrutiny, obviously, as this campaign unfolds, not just for him, but for any other candidate that may end up standing for this constituency, and not least around the kind of economics of it as well. And what was quite interesting today was that he was really keen to stress that he's not going to. He's going to attempt to not do anything that might spook the markets. And I think that was another message that we're going to hear repeat.
- [11:57]
Adam Fleming
And, Chris, I was just going to say, because, James, you've been hobnobbing with diplomats in Estonia this weekend, so I know you've not been monitoring Andy Burnham's movements minute by minute like the rest of us have, and we were going to talk to you about some kind of bigger picture things. But what did you want to say about all this?
- [12:12]
James Landale
What I find really interesting is the extraordinary assumptions that are being made by so many people about what's going on at the moment, and particularly this by election. Whereas Alex was saying Burnham has, you know, he's got several different audiences. The. The voters, the future Labor Party members. Who will. Who will. He will.
- [12:32]
Adam Fleming
His selectorate.
- [12:33]
James Landale
His selectorate, as you say, the bond markets. So, you know, that's already a pretty tricky set of messaging to get out. But also this astonishing assumption that somehow by elections can be controlled. Because if we've learned anything from by elections is that attempts by political parties to control agend and shape things and move things. You know, there are so many examples of by elections where the voters go, well, I'm upset because I didn't think this election needed to happen, so I'm going to punish a particular party. You're imposing a particular candidate on us. I would prefer that candidate. My issue is going to be Something completely different to your issue. And yet so many people are rolling dice, are making assumptions. It's almost as if sort of, I mean, Politics 101 is, do not make presumptions about how a by election is going to play out, because nine times out of 10, you're going to get
- [13:29]
Adam Fleming
it wrong because you just can't control it.
- [13:30]
Chris Mason
And just one little intriguing aside into this mix, which is the broadcasting rules around by elections, once we're in the stage where a writ has been moved, in other words, formally a contest is beginning, and then parties start selecting their candidates. You know, clearly this is a byelect like no other recent by election. But once that contest is underway, in terms of the amount of airtime and indeed particularly the amount of time that might be given to formal sitting in chairs, half an hour interviews with, for instance, the guy who was rather keen on being Prime Minister rather soon, who is one of the candidates. Well, you know, the rules will say, well, he's not the only candidate. There's loads of other candidates, or there's likely to be a good number of other candidates who will perfectly reasonably expect a reasonable crack of the whip in terms of the attention that they are paid. So the capacity, certainly in terms of the traditional broadcasters, for Mr. Burnham in particular, to make a national argument as well as a local one, will be limited by the fact that this is a by election under which there are rules to ensure there's fairness for all of the candidates, and then that kicks in very soon, and there are rules
- [14:50]
Adam Fleming
that apply to broadcasters like us, but which seem to not apply on social media. So people might have very different experiences by election, depending on where they're looking at it from. I thought an interesting thing from Burnham's remarks were just. It's so easy to call out problems. I mean, this is such an obvious thing to say. I can't believe I'm even saying it, but it's so much harder to come up with solutions. And so, for example, he said, oh, no wonder people are disillusioned with politics if politicians can't fill potholes. It's like, okay, easy, everyone's annoyed by potholes, especially people who listen to election cast. Because we've had lots of conversations and it's like, yeah, but okay, but as we learned, who was the newscaster who called in? Was it Ryan?
- [15:29]
Alex Forsyth
Oh, yes.
- [15:30]
Adam Fleming
He knew about how to prevent hot pots. And he said, the point about potholes is you have to spend enough money on highway maintenance to prevent them in the first place. Okay, Andy Burnham. What Are you going to spend less on. If you're going to spend more on highway maintenance, which by the way is a much less popular budget line that then filling potholes. And he then said, oh, and I had to like call this meeting to bash loads of heads together about flood defenses and improving flood warnings and improving flood defenses, especially for communities that have been left behind and feel they don't get enough investment. Again, okay, how are you going to get all these quangos, waters, companies, different legal entities together and force them to work together? Because everybody wants people, different bodies to work together better. It's not like you're the first person ever to identify this as a problem. And it's very hard to ask him for solutions.
- [16:21]
Alex Forsyth
This is what's going to be kind of fascinating about what's happening right now. The conversation that's going on so publicly that is happening within the Labour Party, which is that the argument of the supporters of Keir Starmer make is actually you've got a pretty significant set of issues that the country is facing. So things about how you get the economy growing or moving, things about public services, about, about all of this kind of stuff. And their argument is we've started to make a bit of progress and we stick with us and we think it might get better. The other people in that party, are they wanting a change of policy approach? Are they wanting something done differently in terms of how money's allocated to local authorities, how much is spent on highways, how much is spent on the nhs, how much is spent on defense? Is there a whole different policy approach or are they looking for a new leader to implement a previous policy program? And I think that is going to have to be part of the really active conversation that's happening within the Labour Party right now.
- [17:12]
Adam Fleming
And James, you were talking about the unpredictable things that happen in by elections. Well, we already saw that at the weekend with Wes treating being so explicit about his wish to rejoin the eu, which put Andy Barnum in a tricky position because he has previously said he would like to rejoin the EU in his lifetime and he's still quite young, so that could be quite a long period. But however, he is potentially going to be the candidate in an area that voted quite heavily to leave. So let's listen to how Andy Burnham has been triangulating all of that in his comments today.
- [17:43]
Andy Burnham
My view is that Brexit has been damaging, but I also believe the last thing we should do right now is rerun those arguments. Britain will be stuck in a permanent rut if we're just Constantly arguing and people are pulling away from each other. It is time, surely, isn't it, to bring people back together, to focus on what we've got in common, to get the growth coming to all places. So it's felt there. That is what we need in this moment. And it's really important that whatever comes out of this by election, there's a more kind of unifying feeling about the change that we need to work towards. I am not proposing that the UK considers rejoining the eu. I respect the decision that was made at the referendum and it's going to undermine everything I've said about strengthening democracy if we don't respect that vote.
- [18:37]
Adam Fleming
And I suppose, Chris, it will come down to, is that enough to shut that down as an issue in the next few weeks for Andy Barnum? And actually maybe it will be because Wes Streeting has had his moment to say this and it will disappear as an issue. Or maybe this thing will sort of very loaded phrase, haunt him for the next few weeks.
- [18:53]
Chris Mason
Well, I think, you know, Reform UK are likely to try and leverage it for as much as it's worth, won't they? I suspect given the way that Makerfield voted a decade ago, which was solidly for Leave, and given how recently Reform have had success in the local elections in Makerfield. And there you were hearing, it's back to James's point from a few minutes ago. There you were hearing Andy Burnham attempting to triangulate between the various audiences that he needs to talk to and the positions that he has held in the past because he has previously talked about, you know, a longer term desire for a case for rejoining, but obviously confronts a by election where we know, broadly speaking, or at least we know where the electorate was there a decade ago and, and clearly wasn't sufficiently put off if they've changed their mind in the interim by where reform have been on that issue consistently. So, yeah, you know, it's going to bubble away, isn't it? I think as a, as a likely, as a likely talking point, I would have thought, with Andy Burnham keen to, keen to park it.
- [19:58]
Adam Fleming
Right now we're going to have the pub quiz section of this episode of Newscast, so, so everyone can relax. Yeah, no pints and no prizes. So actually it's quite bad, you know. So Josh Simons, the previous MP for Makerfield, who has stood down to make way for Andy Burnham to potentially be the candidate because he hasn't been selected yet, you know, they get MPs when they retire, get appointed to those weird jobs that sound like they're from Lord of the Rings.
- [20:21]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah.
- [20:22]
Adam Fleming
Josh Simons new job is crown steward and bailiff of the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke Desborough and Blank Burnham. Correct. Did you know that before?
- [20:34]
Alex Forsyth
I knew it today, yes.
- [20:36]
Adam Fleming
Because everyone has been everyone's fiction. I do not want to pretend I've
- [20:40]
Chris Mason
got that level up.
- [20:41]
James Landale
Follow up. What's the alternative one? What's the alternative? Singing Sinecure.
- [20:44]
Adam Fleming
Baron of Northstead.
- [20:46]
Chris Mason
The manor of. Is it Baron or manor Baron of
- [20:48]
Adam Fleming
the manor of Northstead.
- [20:49]
Chris Mason
Yeah. Man.
- [20:49]
Adam Fleming
I always thought the Chiltern Hundreds. I didn't realize it had three actual place names after it.
- [20:54]
Alex Forsyth
I hadn't known that until today because everybody picked up on it because of the Burnham connection. But that's the only reason I know that.
- [21:02]
James Landale
And so. And you know why it actually matters? No, because you. They are. They're. They're basically, you're working for the King and you can't be a Member of Parliament and work for the King at the same time.
- [21:11]
Alex Forsyth
James Andale is literally the most perfect person to have in this conversation, because I have met a few people who know just as much detail about this kind of stuff.
- [21:19]
Chris Mason
And we should mention that these particular titles have been particularly keenly sought after in the last 10 days or so, because there are two now former Scottish National Party MPs who were elected to Holyrood, what, a little under a fortnight ago. And it is now not possible to sit in both Parliaments at the same time. It used to be. It isn't any longer. And so they both. In fact, I bumped into, or he was at the other side of Portcullis House, where people in Parliament grab a coffee or whatever, a very casually dressed Stephen Flynn, the now former Westminster leader of the snp, who was here in London basically shoving all of his stuff into a, you know, black bin liner or a suitcase or whatever, because he is upping sticks. And he shook hands with the speaker, who was grabbing a coffee as well. And he is. He is on his way to Hollywood. And that is one of the two other vacancies that are coming up with by elections. Probably on broader. The same time frame, may even be the same day. The writs will be moved within a couple of days of each other.
- [22:17]
Adam Fleming
I wonder which one will get the most attention. Right, so there's three questions in this pub quiz section. Question number two. Dr. David Bull was, until today, the chairman of Reform UK. Who is his replacement?
- [22:31]
James Landale
Oh, I know this.
- [22:32]
Alex Forsyth
I know this too.
- [22:33]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
- [22:33]
Alex Forsyth
Lee Anderson.
- [22:34]
Adam Fleming
Correct. Why do we think that's happened?
- [22:37]
Alex Forsyth
Apparently, according to Reform uk, because David Bull wants to focus on standing for a future election, although we're not really clear what that election is. That's the official reason given.
- [22:47]
Adam Fleming
Okay, I don't know what that is. Anything else going on there? Chris, do you reckon
- [22:52]
Chris Mason
Lee Anderson didn't have a sort of public facing front bench role when various other gigs were handed out? You'll recall that Robert Jenrick became their treasury spokesman, what they call their Shadow Chancellor. Lee Anderson was their Chief Whip. But there's a limited number of Reform MPs at the moment. So the, you know, that might limit the, the sort of scope of being a Chief Whip or probably, you know, you might be pleased, quite glad to be a Chief Whip with only a handful of mps. It limits the disciplining that you have to. But now I guess he has a sort of more outward facing role to allow him to go around the, do the circuit of, you know, local parties and all the rest of it and drumming up money and support and all that kind of stuff.
- [23:33]
Adam Fleming
Right, on to question three. And this is specifically for James Landale, because you have recently written a very wise piece about this on the BBC News website for the in depth section. Is the UK ungovernable? There's currently 1,000 points up for grabs on this question.
- [23:50]
James Landale
The answer is 1963.
- [23:54]
Andy Burnham
No.
- [23:55]
James Landale
Is Britain ungovernable?
- [23:56]
Adam Fleming
Well, first of all, why did you want to write this piece?
- [23:58]
Andy Burnham
Well,
- [24:00]
James Landale
look, I think the scale of the. Well, I'm a diplomatic correspondent. I spent a lot of time traveling and talking to, you know, ministers and officials and diplomats from. And they constantly ask me what's, what's going on with British politics? You know, the UK used to be the slightly dull, sensible, wise folk in the corner of the room who we'd always like to consult. You know, what are the Brits doing? And both in the European context, but also in an international context, you know, the Americans would want to know when and where are the Brits on this. And now they're just saying, you know, what the hell's going on? Why is this such a churn of prime ministers? And why do political parties seem to lose patience with their leaders so, so often? And look, I, I sort of then consulted a large variety of wise, wiser people than me. And look, I mean, why is it so difficult? A long list of reasons with a punchline you can look at just, you know, it's difficult times. Financial crash 2,08 Covid, Brexit, energy shocks, wars. You know, it's a tough time for
- [25:03]
Adam Fleming
and we should just say on that point about the financial crisis that, that incomes have not really recovered to the level they were before that.
- [25:10]
Keir Starmer
Absolutely.
- [25:11]
Adam Fleming
Like the lost growth is enormous.
- [25:13]
James Landale
Yeah. Then you've got the question of leadership. Have, has the quality of the political leadership produced by the political artist met the moment, you know, let's have a heated debate, then you can to that, you know, questions about how Britain is governed, you know, the quality, the status of the civil service, you know, the role of Downing street is, how effective is it. Then you can chuck in questions of media, social media speeding politics up. Steve Baker, a man who we talked about many, many years, a former Conservative mp, wrote a fascinating piece about the role that social media groups and WhatsApp groups play in speeding up the nature of rebellion.
- [25:52]
Adam Fleming
Of course, he used lots of WhatsApp
- [25:53]
James Landale
groups himself knew all about.
- [25:56]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah.
- [25:56]
James Landale
You throw in then the question of Brexit. Not Brexit, the issue and the impact it may or might have had, but just the nature of the impact it's had on British politics. And the fact that, you know, is it now the case that all these labor mps who've spent many years watching Tory mps ditch their leaders, have sort of learned from that experience, thought it's kind of normal, when in fact historically it's not. It's very atypical. You, you look at all of those kind of questions, you look at the question, you know, I think there's a question of trade offs here. How much are political leaders and parties being straight with electorates and saying, look, these are the difficult choices, these are the trade offs, you know, jam today or jam tomorrow, short term pain or long term gain. That debate seems to have gone and do a. Do you know, do voters want that? Would they even listen to those arguments anymore? The bottom line though actually takes us I think down to Mahomes money, the fact that we have no money. So in the past, political leaders, when they got into a bit of trouble, if they were of the right, might have cut a few taxes. If they're on the left, they would have, you know, spend a bit on welfare in some capacity. That's gone. We have a massive debt crisis. We are spending, we are borrowing so much just to service our debt. It's far more than we're spending on defense and all of that. And at the moment governments are just struggling to address those things. A government comes into power, it promises stuff it doesn't deliver. And the, the disillusionment with, with the electorate and the MPs just seems to come quicker. And faster.
- [27:28]
Chris Mason
It's so interesting. James so I hear two things which arguably are contradictory when I'm out and about away from Westminster and talking to, talking to folk. You hear an understandable impatience, a lot of it going back to the, the lack of economic growth, a lack of, of feeling better off since 2008, but all sorts of other factors that play into that sort of sense of impatience. You hear from a lot of people around the country. And then I also hear from politicians here of every political color, the sense that we're in a society now that demands instant gratification, that we're used to being able to go onto our phones and order a pizza or a book or whatever it might be that arrives 45 minutes later or whatever, and therefore an expectation. So argue some that why can't, why can't politics deliver like that? And when it doesn't, a sense of failure and whether that's a reasonable sense of failure. But perception is in the eye of the beholder. And if that's what people are thinking, then that contributes to this political culture that where everything seems to be on fast forward.
- [28:35]
James Landale
What I think is really interesting because CHRIS that's absolutely right is, is why at the moment no political party is trying to move into the space of let's be more long term, let's actually promise short term pain for long term gain in the same way that there's been a development of some media organizations like Tortoise, that is trying to make a benefit of being slower, of not churning through so quickly. And is there a space that says we are going to offer long term solutions to the really difficult problems here that is going to be painful. So, for example, I pluck something from somewhere to say, look, we are just going to have to spend less, say on older people with their pensions and their welfare and their boomers and all that. And we are going to spend a little bit more on younger people providing better opportunities, maybe burdening them with less student debt, whatever the policy options are, and saying, look, look, that's going to hurt. We are going to, you know, damage what are traditionally seen as our electoral bases. And I thought it was so, for example, I thought it was really interesting during the local election campaigns, some, how can I put it right of center newspapers that were being very critical of the Greens suddenly started running a few pieces that were reflecting the fact that the Greens were picking up a lot of support from all of that traditional newspapers, children and grandchildren. And they were having to deal with that sort of contradiction and paradox that actually there Were, in other words, it was a tacit recognition that there's a sort of generational divide. So that's just one issue. Is there political space or is it just so ludicrous that the parties aren't going to touch it because they've just got their, their core?
- [30:25]
Adam Fleming
I mean, maybe a challenge to that would be that Keir Starmer has talked about a decade of national renewal. So he's tried to talk about the long term. And in fact, he then got pilloried a few weeks ago for repeating that. And then Kemi Badenok would say she has staked her entire reputation on cutting the welfare bill, spending cuts in other places that might be unpopular because she says we've got to get the public finances on a more sustainable footing. And then you look at the combined polling of labor and the Conservatives and combined the two previously biggest parties are on less than 30%. So actually, is that not a test for what the appetite for long term thinking is?
- [31:02]
James Landale
The question is, is what's the catalyst? What is the catalyst that is going to shake up British politics so that a space is created for that degree of honesty? In my world where everybody's endlessly discussing how to increase defense spending. How do you, how do you. So for example, I've just come back from Estonia there and all of those places, Baltics, Nordics, you know, they are revisiting their conscription policies. They are spending some serious money on defense. They are. Estonia, for example, backs up its entire state, sort of digital presence overseas. So if the Russians ever invaded, sort of Estonia continues to exist in a
- [31:45]
Adam Fleming
digital form elsewhere with its mere 5 million citizens.
- [31:48]
James Landale
Correct. And the question is, is, does it take some kind of military shock for the UK to change, or does it take an economic shock of such gravity that the electorate go, you know what, something really radical has to change here and that that allows some political space to be created for really difficult, unpopular decisions about cutting welfare, you know, revamping the planning system over productivity. That, in that, you know, that deals with a lot of sacred cows that. Do you slaughter sacred crowds? Yes, you slaughter sacred, sacred cows. But the question is, what is the catalyst?
- [32:28]
Adam Fleming
Or just put them out to pasture maybe?
- [32:31]
James Landale
Yeah, no, I think that's the, that's the key point. Putting them out to pasture is not good enough. You need, you need some, some, you
- [32:39]
Adam Fleming
want some steak at the end.
- [32:40]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah, we had a whole conversation about exactly this on Any Questions on Friday night.
- [32:44]
Adam Fleming
House well, and how did that.
- [32:45]
Alex Forsyth
About trade offs and about debt and about the UK's public debt and where things are at and whether whether or not there would have been enough honesty in the political discourse about trade offs. And I think broadly speaking, the conclusion from most was probably no.
- [32:58]
Adam Fleming
Well, and that's the conclusion of this episode of Newscast. Hope your minds have been expanded enough. We started off with what's the difference between a smack barm and a potato fritter? And we ended with what is the nature of modern democracy? James, thank you very much for coming back from Estonia for us.
- [33:12]
James Landale
Wild horses would not keep me away.
- [33:14]
Adam Fleming
Alex, good to see you too.
- [33:15]
Alex Forsyth
Pleasure as ever.
- [33:16]
Adam Fleming
And before we go, we've had a very nice message from Ashton and Millie who are year 13 politics students. They say, hey, hello. Hey, newscast. We're year 13 politics students. Sorry, I've already done that bit. And our politics teacher, Ms. Garrard put us all onto your podcast as a leaver's present. We would love it if you could give her a shout out from Ashton Ameli. She's a huge fan of the podcast, especially Chris Mace, and has genuinely inspired so many of us to love Politics. We think she might actually explode if she heard her name on Newscast.
- [33:51]
Chris Mason
Well, it is a sound of explosion that you can hear at some distance right now. And I'm blushing, I'm exploding with blushes here in hearing this, but thank you for listening. Thanks for being. Thanks for being newscasters. And this is, this is a good way, Ms. Garrard, of ensuring that we are constantly replenishing our audience. If every year you can repeat this, there's wise advice that the next generation of politics students should be hearty consumers of Newscast. So we're grateful. Thank you.
- [34:25]
Adam Fleming
And I feel the slot of Ms. Garrard's second favorite newscast presenter is maybe up for grabs. So all to play for Chris. I'll see you soon.
- [34:34]
Chris Mason
Ta ra.
- [34:35]
Adam Fleming
And that is it for this episode of Newscast. Thanks to everyone who's been on it and thanks to all of the newscasters who've messaged us. You know how to get in touch by now, but I'll remind you anyway, the way it's newscastbc.co.uk if you want to email us or you can WhatsApp us any time of day on oh. 033-01-239480.
- [34:55]
James Landale
Bye bye bye.
- [34:57]
Adam Fleming
Newscast.
- [34:57]
Alex Forsyth
Newscast from the BBC.
- [34:59]
Unidentified Female Newscaster
From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do. In the words of Chris Mason, ooh, stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on +4403301239480 be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.