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A
Patrick o' Connell Norah Kuenzberg Wendy has
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B
sent an email and Wendy says I, like many across the political spectrum, feel a sense of unease as we stand at the cliff edge of yet another
- [01:21]
A
change of Prime Minister Henry's here, he's not at home. Do you feel a sense of standing on a cliff edge of another prime minister?
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D
I feel a slight sense of bewilderment because, yes, prime ministers have changed an awful lot in the past decade, but it is still shocking that this morning we feel it is likely, I think we can say, perhaps even stronger than that, that another change is about to happen. So I think we're used to standing on this particular cliff edge now, but that doesn't make it any less jarring, for sure.
- [01:54]
B
And the reason why we can say more strongly on Sunday morning than we were able to look ahead to yesterday, that we may well be on the verge of Keir Starmer going is because for weeks Keir Starmer and his allies have been saying, I'll fight. If there's a contest, I'll carry on. This morning, this is what the cabinet minister, Peter Kyle, had to say.
- [02:18]
E
These are decisions for Kiir to make. And that's why I said that he is taking the time, as well as dealing with all the issues that a prime minister deals with over a weekend, very busy weekend, that he's also taking the time to think through what the political realities are today compared to Last week, the week before. But I know that he's a Prime Minister who always puts country first and he'll be framing every decision that he makes today on behalf of the country in his day to day job as Prime Minister. But also when he thinks about the party going forward, it will always be about what's in the best interest of the country.
- [02:48]
B
Now, to decode that, that is a cabinet minister saying plainly that the Prime Minister might be off.
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A
Which means we must get underway with Sunday's newscast.
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B
Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
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E
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
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B
We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
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E
Six, seven.
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A
Yes, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.
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B
Daddy has has also a special quotation. Ooh la la.
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D
Thinking about it like a panto helped.
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E
Do we play music now or what are we doing?
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A
Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.
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B
It's Laura in the studio and it's
- [03:23]
D
Henry in the studio.
- [03:24]
B
It's very nice that you're here with us in person. I mean, who knows, there might be some big events for you to report around. So rather than you being at home, it's probably quite good that you're in the office and in the newsroom today.
- [03:33]
D
It is helpful. I think it was a. It was pretty clear that things were moving even before Peter Kyle sat down to speak to you. But to have Peter Kyle not just a cabinet minister, but one of the remaining cabinet ministers who is loyal to Sir Keir Starmer and it's not a given at this point that if you're in the cabinet you're loyal to S. Keir Starmer. To have him being as plain as he was to you, even if there's a bit of decoding we still need to do, I think shows that Sir Keir Starmer's mood has shifted rather a lot since Friday morning after the Makefield by election.
- [04:07]
B
I think that's absolutely right. And as I understand it, I think actually the mood really started to change even on Friday afternoon when Downing street and some Starmer briefers and allies were still sort of saying things like we can beat him, we think that we can do it. We're looking for office space, leadership campaign. It feels like all the air has gone out of that briefing. You know those sort of calls you would get from people saying, oh yes, we're still going to go on. It feels to me like that balloon has just completely popped.
- [04:32]
A
Can we go behind the curtain of how we make our program? So I rang Henry this morning Henry appeared on Radio 4 and I asked for a briefing from Henry. And you said something about people who are persuadable to back the Prime Minister.
- [04:45]
D
Yeah, I mean, I was speaking to, well, lots of mps over the weekend, but one that really stuck in my mind yesterday was an MP who was open to backing the Prime Minister. Definitely not a Burnhamite like most labor mps. They'd done their pilgrimage to Makefield over the past few weeks for insurance, but they basically look, you know, there was no path for Zakir Starmer which didn't involve him rallying this MP behind his flag and they said hadn't heard anything, not, not necessarily just from Zakir Starmer, but also from the people who would be at the heart of a Keir Starmer leadership campaign. That we were being assured that he is revving up to run. And that just struck me as such a sign that sure he had done a ring round of Cabinet ministers, but a leadership campaign requires a much broader coalition. Even if he didn't necessarily, I mean, didn't actually technically need the nominations of MPs to be a candidate. But I just thought, ah, okay, things are moving in one direction here and
- [05:46]
B
sometimes in Westminster it's the silence that is telling or the pauses. So should we listen together to a longer chunk of how Peter Kyle presented, trying to be diplomatic and not preempt the Prime Minister himself, but yet signal very clearly to everyone was watching that his time might be up today?
- [06:05]
E
He's hard at work as he has been every day that I have known him as leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister. He's also making time this weekend to try and reflect on the political challenges that he faces, our country faces, our party faces.
- [06:18]
B
Is it still true that he would fight a leadership challenge?
- [06:21]
E
These are decisions for Kiir to make. And that's why I said that he is taking the time, as well as dealing with all the issues that a Prime Minister deals with over a weekend, a very busy weekend, that he's also taking the time to think through what the political realities are today compared to last week, the week before. But I know that he's a Prime Minister who always puts country first and he'll be framing every decision that he makes today on behalf of the country in his day to day job as Prime Minister. But also when he thinks about the party going forward, it will always be about what's in the best interest of the country.
- [06:52]
B
You say he's now reflecting on what to do. That is a very clear signal that he is thinking about resigning or spelling out a transition to Andy Burnham.
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E
I'm just not going to. I know it's frustrating for your. I know people want from me certainty, but this is a moment where there is clearly political uncertainty. We as a party have learned the lessons of where the Conservative Party failed time and time again, where there was political uncertainty in their party. They put the chaos onto the country. We are not going to do that. The conversation I had with Kiir, the Prime Minister on Friday was a thoughtful conversation. He was very mindful of the interests of the country and in that conversation he repeatedly said to me and asked my advice on what I believe the country wanted at this moment. In different circumstances, he never once acted in a self interested way and put his own interests at the middle of all of this. And I know that is how he will be acting this weekend.
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B
And what was your advice to him?
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E
I won't talk about my advice because it was a personal, private conversation.
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B
Forgive me, Peter, Carl, you've just told us what he said to you, that he sought your advice, that he was thinking about what was right for the country and the party. So forgive me for pressing you to reveal what that advice might be.
- [08:11]
E
It was a personal, private conversation. What I wanted to do because I've seen so much reporting that is completely out of kilter from the experience that I had and there was just the two of us in the room. I wanted to say that he was very thoughtful, he was professional and he led through a conversation about the challenges our country faces about the political issues which are unfolding at the moment and asked my views. So I'm not giving away the details of it, but I am talking about the tone and the content.
- [08:41]
B
Well, as if you say, Henry, I think newscasters probably are a smart bunch of people. They probably don't really need much decoding there, do they? I mean, that very clearly is a signal that Keir Starmer has decided to
- [08:53]
A
go and this phrase the best interest of the country around nearly 70% of voters two years ago did not vote Labour. So shifting the deck chairs around the Labour Party and doing a deal to give one man with glasses the role of Prime Minister to another man with glasses.
- [09:12]
B
I mean, actually, you're not against men with glasses.
- [09:14]
A
Well, I'm not. I'm just making. I'm trying to do a cartoon. Paint a cartoon, will it? Can we say what the best interests of the country are? Do we think we now going to stand on a platform saying I want to be Prime Minister for a week?
- [09:28]
B
Two things are true. Right. And that they might contradict each other in a sense. It is absolutely plainly true that voters in the last few years have been very cross about the Conservative Party having lots and lots of different Prime Ministers. People have thought that was a shambles. They've thought that was a bit of a fiasco. It's also true that the country was never in love with Keir Starmer as a leader, and during his time in office, they have grown to dislike him quite seriously. So therefore, as we were saying yesterday, as the Labour Party is kind of a cost benefit analysis, right? The risk of changing and having what might look shambolic and that people going, I can't believe you're doing it again. You promised that you wouldn't do this, versus the cost of carrying on with the Prime Minister that the public don't like, fairly or unfairly. And it's the thing you often hear from Labour MPs, isn't it, Henry? People go, I don't know why people hate Keir so much, but you really feel it's kind of visceral.
- [10:20]
D
I think we can't reiterate enough that the basic reason this is happening is because Labour MPs, many of them, think they are going to lose their jobs at the next general election with Sir Keir Starmer as their leader and as the Prime Minister. That is the main dynamic which has driven the periodic leadership crises that Sir Keir Starmer has faced. So in, it may well be true. Indeed, some evidence suggests it is true that the public is very frustrated by frequent changes in Prime Minister. But the public also keeps showing through polling and focus groups and whatever else that they like almost every Prime Minister less than the last one.
- [11:01]
A
Have I got to get ready for a lectern in Downing street, then?
- [11:04]
B
I think you might have, yeah, maybe tomorrow night. So let's just think about the timeline. We think Andy Barnum's going to come to Westminster tomorrow, take his seat as Makerfield. Keir Starmer's been in Chequers this weekend, but he may be back in Downing street right now, we don't know. Or he'll be back later today or perhaps very early tomorrow morning. So Andy Barnum time is up in London. The two men are expected to speak. Somehow that might be in person. It obviously can't be in Downing Street. Andy Barnum is not going to walk up the street in Downing street in front of the cameras. Perhaps they'll have a private meeting in. In Parliament, in the Prime Minister's office and behind the Speaker's Chair, where people like me used to try and lurk around and then get moved on by the men in tights because you're not, strictly speaking, meant to stand there. But if you just happen to be walking past when there was something quite important happening, that's quite useful.
- [11:46]
A
I don't want to interrupt the flow too much, but. Sorry, did you just say moved on by the men in tights?
- [11:49]
B
Yes.
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A
Okay.
- [11:50]
B
Welcome to being a part of the entry report.
- [11:52]
D
When you're in Parliament, it's the most natural thing ever. Someone comes along, why are they dressed like.
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B
Why are you wearing tights? Why have you got a sword anyway?
- [11:59]
A
What are you talking about me? No, but the thing is, go. Going back to the main thing.
- [12:03]
B
Yeah, the main thing. So. So they're going to speak somehow. They might have a call, they might meet in Parliament in person, who knows? Keir Starmer should be doing a statement in Parliament about the G7 meeting last week. So he would be, in normal times expected to be on his feet in Parliament sometime in the afternoon. The parliamentary Labor Party is due to meet on a Monday night because that's like their staff meeting. They, they, they do that every single week. Now, if Kirstam has already concluded that he is going to set out a timetable or maybe even say, do you know what, I'm going kind of now over to you, Andy, and see how you like it. Because there's no love lost between the two of them. Maybe it could be a lectern tomorrow. Maybe it could be Tuesday morning, which would be the 10th anniversary of the Brexit vote. Start your discussion and PhD thesis there. But yeah, I think it is perfectly like even, even, I think more than likely, Henry, as you said, that we are going to have some kind of lectern moment in the next 48 hours.
- [13:01]
D
Can we talk the timetable question? Because I actually think very quickly.
- [13:05]
B
Yes.
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D
This is going to be the big debate in the Labour Party.
- [13:09]
B
So it's the timetable about when Starmer goes, what happens next and will there be any kind of contest?
- [13:14]
D
Exactly. There are people around Andy Burnham who would like the handover, which they believe there will be. Others might have something to say about that, but they would like the handover to take place around about the time of Labour Party conference. So last week of September. There are other people, not just in the Labour Party more generally, but also in Camp Burnham.
- [13:36]
B
Yeah.
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D
Who say to me that is preposterous. The idea that you can have a three month interregnum in which government would grind to a halt, but also you would have non stop speculation and briefing about what a Burnham government would look like, which would ultimately define for Andy Burnham what his government, how his government is framed in a way that might be very hard to rescue should he then become Prime Minister in late September. They say, look, it's for the birds. This is going to have to happen within weeks, if not days, you know, as happened with David Cameron handing over to Theresa May, for example, or indeed Lives Trust over to Rishi Sunak. I think that is going to be perhaps the big debate in the Labor
- [14:17]
A
Party over the next few days, because Simon Case.
- [14:19]
B
Sorry, I was gonna say. And also if they, if they wait, what they might lose is what you were talking about, Paddy, yesterday. Is that momentum, the big mo, as it's known in politics. They have huge momentum right now. If they hang around till September, maybe it would give them more time to have proper preparation, do their sums, add it up, work out exactly what he wants to do. But that momentum could by then have completely disappeared and maybe even turned into something really negative.
- [14:41]
A
Yeah. Because every big departmental decision that comes along, including the defence investment.
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B
Yeah.
- [14:46]
A
Everyone's going to be saying, what does Andy think? So if Keir Starm stays in, your point would be there's a second Prime Minister considered almost as powerful as the. The first one. So you do it quickly. But if you do it quickly, Andy Burnham may not have a policy. He didn't really seem to understand the fiscal rules very well when he was pushed by Victoria Derbyshire. He may not have a Chancellor, he may not have a Foreign Secretary.
- [15:06]
B
And this is where it comes down to the rub, right? If he's getting in there and there isn't a contest, let's say if it is a quick handover, because there still could be a contest and we'll talk about that in a sec. But if he gets in there, what is he actually going to do? So one of his supporters, Luke Charters, was on the program this morning and I was very interested that he said, I think quite deliberately, that basically Andy Barnum was going to stick to the Labour manifesto from 2024. That is not the view of everyone in Andy Barnum's team. And he campaigned in Makerfield in a very different way.
- [15:38]
A
He.
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B
His was an anti current status quo, anti Keir Starmer, anti what Labour has been doing in the last couple of years. So if he suddenly then goes back to saying, well, yeah, well, for stability reasons and to get on with things, I'm basically going to stick to the manifesto that we all stood on in 2024. And also things have changed so much since that manifesto, this whole defense spending is completely transformed from July 2024. The whole question of economics is completely changed in 2024 because there's been a conflict in the Middle east and oil prices have gone up. So this is a big thing. It's not just about timing, but it's about how much is he going to deviate or not if he gets there. From what Keir Summer's been up to,
- [16:19]
D
and you look at some of the positions that Andy Burnham ended up taking on national questions during the Make A Field campaign, for example, he's indicated that he's supportive of Shaban Al Mahmood's policies at the Home Office. Indeed, there's a widespread expectation now that if he becomes Prime Minister, Shaban Mahmoud would remain as Home Secretary. Other positions on various different things, you add them together and some Labour MPs say, well, hang on, what's the point? You are just changing from a man in his 60s in glasses to a man in his 50s in glasses, Paddy, to adopt your sketch.
- [16:54]
A
But then. So the thing is, then you said there could still be a contest.
- [16:57]
C
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
So I think you. Don't you. Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted.
- [17:00]
A
Well, no, I'm just trying to work out that you're doing the choreography with me. So who decides if there's going to be a contest?
- [17:07]
B
I think that's largely right now in Keir Starmer's hands. So if we get to a lectern moment, we don't know if he's going to come out and say, I'd like to set out a timetable for my moving on from office. This time has come for a new captain. Thank you very much and good night. And the timetable is that I will leave in 2045, or he's going to come out and say, I would like to set out a timetable for my departure. But I believe, and I've instructed the Labour Party's National Executive Committee to prepare the rules for a leadership contest that will take place over the next six weeks and I'll be gone and I won't stand and I'll be gone by conference. Or will he come out and say, I'm setting out the reasons why I'm leaving. I'm very sad and I'm very sorry, and I expect that my successor, in order to get on with the business of government, will be here by the end of this parliamentary session, I. E. In like, three weeks time. We don't know which one of those options he will pick. I think the other question is there's going to be A big bun fight inside the parliamentary Labour Party about whether or not there should be a contest. So Kama will sort of set out the architecture, I suppose, but the POP is also going to have a big say.
- [18:15]
D
Well, exactly. I mean, if you think back, different party, different rules. But if you think Back to the first of our post, June 23, 2016, Prime Ministerial Transitions. David Cameron was meant to have months, months. But then when it came to it, for various different reasons, Theresa May was the only candidate left standing and therefore they didn't end up going to the Conservative Party members. And it happened very quickly. So Keir Starmer could say, I'll be gone by conference. Labour could then open nominations and if you have 81, you're a candidate. But it might be that within a day, Andy Burnham has 300 MPs who've signed his papers and no one else has stood. Or someone else has stood, but they've only got 20.
- [18:53]
A
But didn't Wes Streeting say he would run?
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B
Yes.
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D
Said that was his intention.
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B
Yes.
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D
But look at Jess Phillips on Laura's program this morning, who's a West street reporter, big West Streeting supporter. She was very open to the idea that the parliamentary Labour Party might essentially stitch this up behind one candidate. Look at Melanie Ward, Gordon Brown's old seat in Scotland, another big west treating supporter. Speaking to our colleagues on Politics Live as early as Friday, she talked about them getting in a room and coming to some sort of accommodation. Team Streeting have been very quiet. They're adamant that there's no change in his position, that he still wants to run for the leadership. But reading the mood music. Do you read listening to the mood music? It feels less likely to me that he's going to.
- [19:40]
B
And he is in the mix to be getting a big job in the Barnum camp. So look, there are all sorts of conversations going on about who might get what job if you make it in. But I just want to share with you some informed speculation. I'll say not direct, no, I'm not about to read you a text from Andy Burnham, but I am just going to refer to some things that I've been told about some of the discussions about possible jobs. Okay, here we go. So still a debate around whether or not Edmund Band should be Chancellor. Very interesting that Sharon Graham, powerful boss of the Labour's biggest financial backer, United Union, has said that can't happen because of net zero. Because of net zero. And they're very unhappy about how he's run the Energy Department. But there's still A debate around that. Andy Barnum is suggested to have made a deal with Ed Milan some time ago that he could be Chancellor if he tried to force Keir Starmer out in May. Of course, Ed Miliband didn't manage to force K Star out in May. So maybe he didn't try. He didn't try, but maybe Andy Bar thinks, well, you didn't deliver it, so I'm not going to give you the job anyways. There's a debate about that, as you said. We think Shaban Mahmood is pretty much nailed on to stay as Home Secretary. Lou Haig, of course, was one of the driving forces behind his campaign. Former minister all the guessing game is that she is going to go to the Cabinet Office and be. Be sort of the one who's sort of running things behind the scenes. Lisa and Andy expected to get a senior job. No surprise about that. Angela Rayner and Wes treating also expected to feature prominently. And look, this is a bit of a guessing game, but it's an informed guessing game. I'm also told that Fleur Anderson, the MP for Putney, might be in for a big job, which is an interesting quirk. Who knows? Who knows?
- [21:15]
D
Can I just contribute to the Ed Miller band?
- [21:18]
B
Yeah.
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D
Side of these things. You know, Ed Miliband, obviously a former leader of the Labour Party. That means he has years worth of allies and years worth of enemies. And I was speaking to a current government minister who believes that Andy Burnham is going to be the Prime Minister and would like to stay on under him. But they said to me, if Andy makes Ed Miliband the Chancellor, he will start off as prime minister with 100 Labour MPs furious. And they said, Rachel Reeves, Pat McFadden, if they're on the back benches, every time there's an economic statement from the Chancellor, Ed Miliband, they will make his life a misery. And there is an interesting question there which overlaps with the question of policy, of how bold a break Andy Burnham wants to make, not just presentationally but substantively with Sir Keir Starmer's government. Does he want to define himself against essentially the right of the Labour Party? To put it slightly over simplistically, does he want to define himself against those who have remained loyal to Keir Starmer to the end? If he does, then Ed Miliban is a good idea.
- [22:25]
A
So this is all happening now. These phone calls are being made now?
- [22:28]
B
Yeah, there are lots and lots of conversations going on between current ministers, aspirant ministers, union leaders, Camp Burnham. Yeah. I mean, this weekend is all about.
- [22:37]
A
But just, just hang on.
- [22:38]
B
Before they've even heard from Keir Starmer, this is what politics is, right?
- [22:41]
A
And we don't even know that Keir Starmer's spoken to Andy Burnham and Andy
- [22:44]
B
Burnham, I don't think he has yet.
- [22:46]
A
And Andy Burnham's going to get on a train from Manchester to Westminster, a journey freighted with symbolism. He's going to walk into the House of Commons.
- [22:54]
B
I think it'll probably be Wigan Northwestern.
- [22:56]
A
Wigan Northwestern doesn't rhyme as well. And he's going to be filmed every step of the way, isn't he? It's going to be like a sort of slow motion power, I suspect.
- [23:08]
B
So, yeah. I mean, look, who knows? Maybe he'll. Maybe he's already left to try and maybe he's in a. Maybe he's in a car driving down. Maybe he's at the. Actually he wouldn't be at the Tea Bas services. That's further up. Maybe he's at some.
- [23:20]
D
It's worth a diversion.
- [23:21]
B
It's worth a diversion. But you know, maybe, maybe he's already come to London to try and avoid absolute pandemonium at Houston tomorrow. But we'll, you know, we'll see. It is. Tomorrow is going to feel absolutely huge because it is.
- [23:38]
D
It is because it is. I mean, sure, we've changed prime ministers a lot in recent years, but it is still a massive thing to happen. But an especially massive thing to happen not even two years since Sir Keir Starmer became what the. Slightly depends how you count it, but the fourth Labour leader ever to win a general election majority.
- [23:58]
B
That's right. And I think also we should say it depends as well how you define this question of how many prime ministers we've had in 10 years. So I already had a very cross former minister saying, you mustn't suggest it would be the seventh prime minister in 10 years because David Cameron was actually Prime Minister all the way from 2010 to 2016. So actually you're, you're. They were suggesting, we were trying to say things were more rocky than they were. There'd be six changes of prime minister says, oh no, I, we. It would be the seventh change. And that is absolutely extraordinary. And it's also not cost free. So one of the elements that we were discussing on the program this morning was with Simon Case, who was the Cabinet secretary for, to enforce for basically for all of them, for Boris Johnson, for Rishi Sunak, for Liz Truss and then for Keir Starmer. And he said very plainly and clearly that there is a cost to this because the financial markets are already charging us more to borrow because of instability in politics. He said there's a cost as well because important decisions just don't get made because you don't know who the Minister is. The decision maker is unclear. That's something that, you know, politicians love talking about power, they love talking about who's up and down. So do we, let's face it. But the cost of this in financial and in sort of policy terms, disruption are real. They're real.
- [25:22]
A
Does Keir Starmer get a job in Andy Burnham's government?
- [25:26]
B
Well, there's no love lost between them. I mean, there have been some suggestions. Oh, make him Foreign Secretary because he's good at the stuff on the world stage. I think that their relationship is going to be pretty curdled by all of this. There's a little wrinkle because always in politics people have long memories. And in 2015, as a bright eyed new MP, Keir Starmer backed Andy Burnham to become the Labor Leader. In 2020, even though it looked like Keir Starmer was going to win pretty straightforwardly, Andy Barnum only backed him at the very last minute. So there is a. There are troubled waters under the bridge here and I find it hard to see that Keir Starmer would be up for it. But look, you never know. And in a way it would be a very, it would be a neat thing, would it not? But then what do you do with Yvette Cooper who, you know, if he wants to create stability, maybe leave Yvette Cooper as Foreign Secretary? I don't know.
- [26:16]
D
There is an interesting discussion definitely taking place at certain levels in the Labour Party about the role of Foreign Secretary under a Burnham government. Because foreign affairs has so dominated Sakir Starmer's time as Prime Minister. Unavoidably so, given what's going on in the world. But there are people who say, look, that is not Andy Burnham's particular field of interest. If he is going to become leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister on a mandate to transform the domestic politics of the Labour Party, then it is just not a good use of his time and his talents. And I just keep hearing people say the Tories really found a way to make this work at the end with David Cameron as Foreign Secretary because visiting Prime Ministers from sort of more minor nations would be happy to meet David Cameron. That would be respectful. And Rishi Sunak didn't have to take two hours out of his day to go and sit down with a Prime Minister from a slightly irrelevant country. I mean, that's just the reality of it. Right. I don't know.
- [27:15]
B
I haven't come up with it, as they saw.
- [27:16]
D
Well, I haven't. I haven't named a particular country. Right. Clearly, some are irrelevant, relevant to the uk, at least in relative terms. So who is that person who Andy Burnham could, if he buys that argument, put in charge of his foreign affairs? And I have had two people. I. I don't think it's necessarily informed speculation, but I don't think it's completely uninformed speculation, say to me, well, perhaps it might not just be Ed Miliband from the Miller Band family in line for a big job.
- [27:47]
B
He's been in his current job quite a long time.
- [27:49]
D
Right.
- [27:49]
B
David Miliband. He's been there for a while.
- [27:51]
D
But one extraordinary thing. I mean, I don't think this is going to happen, but just. Let's just say one extraordinary thing. The 2010 labor leadership election was 16 years ago. Ed Miliband. David Miliband. Andy Burnham. Where are Ed Bulls and Diane Abbott? You just need them for the complete set.
- [28:06]
A
So. So that means he'd have to go into the House of Lords.
- [28:08]
D
David Miliband, which David Cameron did.
- [28:10]
A
David Cameron did and it worked. So the answer to the question, would Keir Starmer get a job? Is probably, Keir Starmer wouldn't take a job.
- [28:17]
B
So I think not. But I. Look, I don't know. I don't know, but it would seem surprising because there is bad blood between the two of them. However, look, Keir Summer is somebody who. His allies would say that he is principally driven by duty and wanting to serve the country. So, look, if he was asked to be Foreign Secretary, maybe he would go for it, because what else is. Also. What else is he going to do apart from, you know, maybe want to disappear for a while and read books and breathe fresh air and, you know, hang out with his family. But, you know, he's a man in his early 60s. He's somebody, of course, who's managed to get to the highest office in the land. He's somebody with great capabilities and a huge range of experience. So was he just. Is he going to go to the. To the back benches? But I think it's. It's hard to see. But look, stranger things have happened in the last 10 years in this country, so we just don't know.
- [29:13]
D
The UK is hosting, just by a quirk of the rotation, the G20 next year and the G7 the year after that. Those are massive. Moments for the UK on the world stage. So the Prime Minister, whoever that may be at that point, is going to want a really savvy, experienced and influential team around them to handle that sort of two years of summit.
- [29:35]
A
All this, all this detail. I now want to put myself in the position of being a member of another political party in the House of Commons. And I don't have to go very far back, do I, to be reminded that Labour expressly told me they weren't going to do this because they said it was precisely because the Conservatives had done this, that we needed to end the chaos. We needed to vote for someone who was a good manager, who was going to not wasn't going to sell it on charisma. They were going to do personality changes in Downing Street. So if you're from all of the other political parties and you see this unfold this week, you're going to be very, very vocal indeed, are you not? You're going to have a lot to say about what Labour's up to.
- [30:15]
B
You're going to have a lot of reason to do mockery, which is a big part of politics, and you're going to have lots of reasons to chuck jibes around like two year care. And it's going to be really fun politically for the opposition parties for a while.
- [30:36]
C
Big color, Bigger Savings Sherwin Williams Super Sale is here. Get 40% off paints and stains June 5th through the 11th with prices starting at 30 89. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only some exclusions apply. See Store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders.
- [31:06]
B
He's widely recognized as one of the
- [31:08]
E
greatest footballers in history.
- [31:09]
A
He's won the prestigious Ballon d' or
- [31:11]
D
award five times, he's the all time
- [31:13]
B
leading goal scorer in professional football and
- [31:16]
A
according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.
- [31:22]
B
Guess who we're talking about yet?
- [31:23]
A
That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.
- [31:30]
B
That's good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.
- [31:32]
D
Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
- [31:39]
C
Big color, Bigger Savings Sherwin Williams Super Sale is here. Get 40% off paints and stains June 5th through the 11th with prices starting at 30.89. Whether you're refreshing your interior or Exterior, we've got the colors to bring bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales, only some exclusions apply. See Store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders
- [32:12]
B
after a period, though it's completely unknown as to how it progresses. So Andy Burnham is someone who the public like more, a lot more than they do Keir Starmer. Therefore, in one sense, that makes him automatically a tougher opponent. That said, we've got no idea if he gets into number 10, if he's going to run an effective administration or not. We've got absolutely no idea. So I think in the, in the kind of short term, yeah, the opposition parties have got lots and lots of ammunition to chuck around. Of course they do. Once we get past a couple of months, if indeed Burnham is in charge, I think we just do not know how it's going to unfold. And as we were talking about yesterday, Paddy, that conversation I had with somebody in, in a. In a Sen. Position in government, it's a bit of a sort of thought experiment. You know, the government has not been performing well in some areas. Of course, they would say they've got waiting lists down, that immigration has come down and all those things, but the public thinks that the government has not been effective. If you basically change not very much about the government's performance, but you have a much more charismatic, likable person at the top, does that or does that not change how the public feels about those who represent them? Maybe it does. Maybe people feel a bit more cheered up because you have a different person who comes along and talks about hope and talks about optimism and doesn't wear a shirt and tie all the time. I want to know when he is going to wear a shirt and tie, though. If he ends up walking into Downing street this week, is he going to do it in a black T shirt?
- [33:33]
A
No, you'll have to wear a certain tie.
- [33:35]
B
But where will it?
- [33:36]
C
I don't know.
- [33:37]
B
Well, I think gazelles, who are gazelles at the lectern.
- [33:41]
A
The person who knows the least in the room is going to give the strongest answer. Yes. I think if you're going to be Prime Minister, you've got to put a tie on. I do think the answer to that is yes, and we will be back proving when I'm wrong, when he does it in.
- [33:53]
B
I think you're right. I'm just intrigued as to. At what point does the centrist dad garb come off and the head teacher garb go on.
- [34:00]
A
Well, I don't know quite how quickly it happens, but when he's talked about as Prime Minister, he's gonna have a tie on. That'll be my push at your answer.
- [34:08]
D
I think I'm instinct. I have no idea. But I think I'm instinctively team Paddy on this. I think he has a traditionalist small cc.
- [34:14]
A
We're wearing the same clothes. You and me have actually come here today wearing the same shirt.
- [34:19]
D
And I'm criticizing myself, not you, Paddy, when I say Andy Burnham should not take fashion advice from you and me.
- [34:25]
A
No, no, exactly, exactly. And I just want to inject this non, non specialist political view.
- [34:31]
B
Come on, we've been talking about politics every week for like three years now. Oh, yeah. I don't know anything.
- [34:36]
A
No, I just take. I take what you said, repeat it back to you. But the thing is, it's just there is a human. There's a family in this. There's a human being in this. Can you imagine them being in Checkers this weekend? The two of them wafting around those 16th century windows, very nice swimming pool. But just thinking, what do we do? We're gonna go. I mean, a man's life and a family's whole life changing, really, because of the fact that the club he's part of have turned on him.
- [35:07]
B
And in the other way, Andy Burnham and his wife and kids have also been on a mini break this weekend. Somewhere in a mystery location, what's on their mind? Their lives are about to change in all sorts of profound ways.
- [35:18]
D
If his plan comes off, it is brutal human drama. And as we were Discussing on Radio 4 earlier, Paddy, this is a Prime Minister, a man whose professional life has been one of constant achievement at every turn. You know, he gets mocked for the son of a toolmaker thing. But the point he was really trying to make is, though I'm a Knight of the British Empire, though I'm a former Director of Public Prosecutions, I didn't start off posh. That's really the point he's been trying to make, is that he's clawed his way up to the pinnacle of the British establishment as Prime Minister, won an extraordinary general election victory five years after Labour's worst defeat. And then within two years, this is happening to him. It is. It is extraordinary and public, personal and professional failure. And that is a brutal thing for him to happen to him. And also on his family, I think he. Though he is very protective of his family, he's actually more open than some other prime ministers about how concerned he is about the burden that he's placed on his family. I remember interviewing him in actually in Kiev about a year into his time in office and I said to him if you could go back a year ago and just before the exit poll and tell yourself one thing, what would it be? And I thought he'd say something about welfare or something about foreign policy or. And he said I'd tell myself, don't watch the exit poll with your kids. And I was like what? And basically he said well, I haven't thought about how difficult that moment would be for them of the confirmation that I kissed armor I'm going to become prime minister and that their lives are going to change. I just think it is very hard on a human level to quite process quite how miserable this weekend will have been for the whole Starmer family.
- [37:07]
B
I'm sure we're recording at 12 minutes past 11 on Sunday all sorts of things could happen but I think we are reading the runes.
- [37:16]
A
We're normally at this point Henry's at home and we say Henry, what should we look out for in this week? So that's actually been the whole, it's been the whole newscast.
- [37:26]
D
England second World cup group game, Scotland's third. Other than that, not much going on, is there?
- [37:31]
B
Not much going on.
- [37:32]
D
By the way, can we stop having political crises during international football tournaments? It is an absolute nuisance. Euro 2024 was ruined for me by the general election. Euro 2016 was during the Brexit referendum.
- [37:44]
A
Come on guys, are you loving the World Cup? Because there was.
- [37:47]
D
Well, I am, but I don't think I'm going to be watching a lot of it this coming week.
- [37:49]
A
Well, you can, you can stay up. I stayed up to watch Laura's political show to get four in the morning, the election thing. But there was a lot of love today on Radio 4 for the fact that the World cup throws up all these marvelous moments. A 40 year old in goal for a tiny nation. And even people who aren't really meant to love football can love the love that's around. You know, it's complete contrast. Oh, completely bitter news cycle.
- [38:10]
B
It's like fair weather. Sports fans, is that like I'll watch the end of any big tournament over anything. I mean sort of tiddly winks or Wimbledon or the World cup final. I mean the rest of it, absolutely not a Scooby Doo.
- [38:19]
A
But tournaments are fun but actually in the country we've got people obsessing about the politics and obsessing about the football and then some people are in the middle.
- [38:26]
D
And I guess a way of drawing this all together neatly that I've just thought of is when the World cup final features England in three or four weeks in New York or New Jersey, I think, technically, who will be the UK Prime Minister? Okay, it could be Scotland as well. Who will be the UK Prime Minister? Who will be there sitting between Donald Trump and the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino?
- [38:49]
B
Well, I have to say, for Andy Burnham, who is always, wherever possible, photographed kicking a football, as indeed is Keir Starmer, one can only imagine that the Richard Curtis version of his next few weeks is that he would be there in the stands. I bet you we wouldn't sit in the box with the other leaders. He'd probably go into the terraces and
- [39:08]
D
he'd be wearing a T shirt. That one, I'm sure.
- [39:10]
B
Definitely an England T shirt. Anyway, you can imagine that would be quite the stuff of Andy Burnham's dreams. But we do not yet know, and we should say that we do not yet know precisely how this is going to unfold, but we are giving you the benefit of our rune reading and
- [39:25]
A
we will see and we will promise Adam here with a every day up. There'll probably be two newscasts tomorrow.
- [39:32]
B
Gosh.
- [39:33]
A
Well, I'm just looking at the editor. Depends what happens. Okay, look, thank you very much for listening to Sunday's newscast and goodbye.
- [39:40]
C
Goodbye.
- [39:41]
B
Goodbye.
- [39:41]
A
Newscast.
- [39:42]
B
Newscast from the BBC.
- [39:44]
E
Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget you can email us anytime. It's newscastback abc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.
- [40:24]
C
Bye.
- [40:31]
B
He's widely recognized as one of the
- [40:33]
E
greatest footballers in history.
- [40:35]
A
He's won the prestigious Ballon d' or
- [40:37]
D
award five times, he's the all time
- [40:39]
B
leading goal scorer in professional football, and
- [40:42]
A
according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.
- [40:48]
B
Guess who we're talking about yet?
- [40:49]
A
That's right. Good Bad billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.
- [40:55]
B
That's good. Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.
- [40:58]
D
Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.