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- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
Hello.
- [00:01]
Joe Pike
Just a warning that the first half of today's episode of Newscast includes a conversation about the death of Henry Novak. And that body cam footage from the police which shows his last moments, moments which included police officers handcuffing him, placing him under arrest and reading him his rights. A piece of video that's quite harrowing to listen to. So just a warning that we will play some of it, but we'll mainly be talking about the political reaction to the dramatic video. And that's coming your way on this episode of Newscast. Newscast, Newscast.
- [00:33]
Lucy Manning
From the BBC.
- [00:34]
Joe Pike
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [00:36]
James Cook
We are in the midst of a rupture.
- [00:38]
Lucy Manning
Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [00:41]
Keir Starmer
Six, seven.
- [00:42]
Joe Pike
Yeah, it's supposed to be me. As a doctor, Daddy has.
- [00:45]
James Cook
Has also a special connotation. Ooh la la. Thinking about it like a panto helped.
- [00:50]
Adam Fleming
Do we play music now or what are we doing?
- [00:52]
Joe Pike
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. And just a reminder that the first conversation we're going to have in today's episode may include some details that you find dist. So please bear that in mind. And the story we're going to talk about is the death of Henry Novak. He was an 18 year old student who was stabbed to death after a night out in Southampton by a man called Vikram Digua who was sentenced to a life sentence yesterday at Southampton Crown Court, serving a minimum of 21 years behind bars. And it's not just the details of the sentence or the court case that has gripped people today. It is some footage released by Hampshire police from a police officer's body worn camera that shows how the police responded in the moment when they attended the 999 call where Vikram Digua is lying and saying that he has been the victim of a racial attack by Henry Novak. And Henry Novak is lying on the ground outside a house and he is bleeding to death from the stab wounds he's received. And the police don't really appear to believe him when he says that he has been stabbed. And then the really chilling moment when you watch that footage is you realize those are the last few minutes of Henry Novak's life. And there have been lots of quite powerful reactions from people across the political spectrum, powerful for different reasons that we're going to go into right now. So to help us pick our way through this very difficult story, we're joined From Milbank, the BBC's HQ at Westminster by Joe Pike. Hi, Joe.
- [02:23]
Adam Fleming
Hi, Adam.
- [02:23]
Joe Pike
And here in the studio with me is Lucy Manning, BBC News special correspondent. Hi again. Lucy.
- [02:27]
Lucy Manning
Hi, Adam.
- [02:28]
Joe Pike
Right, let's start with this body cam footage. Why, Lucy, are we, are we seeing it in the first place at all?
- [02:36]
Lucy Manning
Well, I think let's start by saying that it's quite clear, having watched it, and I think other people will have watched it. This is some of the most distressing body cam footage that people will have seen, and politicians and been reacting to it as pretty much the same way that journalists have as well. I think you saw today when people were talking about it, they look quite tearful about it. People haven't wanted to watch it and that's understandable. But it was released by the police with permission of the family. It was, obviously.
- [03:12]
Joe Pike
And also, and also in, in court cases, the, the body cam footage nowadays becomes an important piece of evidence. So it's, it's shown in open court, isn't it? It's part of the evidence that the jury that helps them.
- [03:23]
Lucy Manning
Yeah, that's right. And, and the rules have been over a long period of time now to try and release as much footage that is shown in court at the end of. Of case, some sometimes during it, but mostly at the end of it. So when this case finished, that could be released. But something that sensitive really has to be cleared with the family. And it is extremely distressing footage. It, it shows what happened essentially in, in the last few minutes of Henry Novak's life. He's on the ground. The officers arrive, his murderer is standing there lying, saying to police, he pulled off my turban and attacked me and attacked me. And Henry is on the ground trying to get the words out, I've been stabbed.
- [04:13]
Joe Pike
But you can hear because he's so badly injured, even that is very hard for him to do. It's very. It's very garbled and muffled.
- [04:19]
Lucy Manning
Yeah. You can see he's. He's fighting for his life. He doesn't really have the strength to say what's happened to him. He manages to tell them that he's been stabbed. He manages nine times to say, I can't breathe. And the officers, frankly, are pretty dismissive of him when, when he says, I've been stabbed, one officer turns around and says, oh, I don't think so, mate.
- [04:42]
Joe Pike
Yeah.
- [04:42]
Lucy Manning
And the judge did talk about, in his, in his words, that it was dark, it was hard to see, but there's certainly a sense that Henry is not believed and he'. He's put into handcuffs.
- [04:54]
Joe Pike
Yeah. I found it quite helpful today, reading the judge's sentencing remarks from the court last week, because I hadn't read it at the time. I only read it today when it became so huge in the last 24 hours. And yeah, it's a quite useful summary of just all the events that led up to this and then what happened. So for example, the fact that Henry was walking home, he'd been in the pub, but he was well below the drink drive limit, just as a sort of like a way of testing how much he'd had to drink. He met Vicram Digu sort of in the streets. They had some kind of altercation that involved Henry getting his phone out and filming it and Vic from Diguad taking it and then there being a, a scuffle to get the phone back and then that's when the stabbing happened.
- [05:37]
Lucy Manning
Yeah, these two didn't know each other and it, it's quite clear from what was said in court that Diga had this, what is said to be a ceremonial knife but was much larger than. Than. Than the. The seek ceremonial knife. And Henry is heard saying, you know, you're a bad man. Something along those lines. And then. And then he stabbed and Dig was family called the police and say that it, that it's been a racial attack.
- [06:06]
Joe Pike
And when the police hear them saying that.
- [06:08]
Lucy Manning
Yeah. You hear the 999 call that was released as well.
- [06:11]
Joe Pike
Yeah.
- [06:12]
Lucy Manning
And then when the police turn up, Dig were again lies and says he took my turban off, he. He attacked me. And the who. The assumption is that the police are believing him against Henry who is on the ground and who is clearly severely, severely injured.
- [06:31]
Joe Pike
Let's hear a little bit of that body cam footage. And this is just a little snippet in case you've not heard it and you want to get a bit of a sense of what's going on. And we're playing the absolute bare minimum because it is very hard to listen to and to watch what's happened to you.
- [06:45]
Adam Fleming
Right.
- [06:48]
James Cook
You've been stabbed. Whereabouts?
- [06:51]
Joe Pike
Don't think you have, mate. I want to keep you up. Yeah, there's that, that bit you referred to a minute ago, Lucy, about. I don't think you have, mate. And reading the judge's remarks which were published yesterday, he, he tries to go into some detail about what he thinks was happening there.
- [07:09]
Lucy Manning
Yeah, I mean he talks about it was dark and it was difficult for the officers to see and it was difficult for them to know what was going on. But I think others have pointed out that what is clear is that there was a man in distress on the ground saying he'd been stabbed. And the officers say one of the officers says, well, we'll need to check. But nobody appears to do any proper checks and nobody appears to give him any first aid. And it's only sort of taken seriously right at the end when it's too late. And obviously this will all be investigated. There is now a police watchdog investigation. Only part of that police body cam has been released. And they will go through all that, they will interview the officers. They're saying they're treating the officers as witnesses at the moment, that may change. So there is a whole investigation to be done. But from this body worn camera, from the few minutes that we've seen, it does appear that what you might expect officers to do, which is try and find out what's going on, that assumptions have been made beforehand.
- [08:20]
Joe Pike
Because I'm just thinking about when we do our first aid training for when we're going to dangerous places. And one of the things you're taught is that when you're presented with the casualty, you're meant to do a really thorough search under their clothes, if need be, like rip their clothes off and do it multiple times. Because it's so easy to miss quite serious injuries.
- [08:39]
Lucy Manning
Yeah.
- [08:39]
Joe Pike
I mean, that's when you're in a bit of chaos. And there's no evidence from the footage we've seen of the officers really doing that, apart from at the very end of the video when a female police officer says, we should at least give it a go.
- [08:52]
Lucy Manning
Yeah. And that's exactly what we were talking about in the office today that you are supposed to, if there are injuries to a body, possible stab wounds, you are supposed to feel and check and open the clothes and all that sort of thing. And it didn't appear that was being done and not helped by Digwa in the background saying, he hasn't been stabbed, he hasn't been stabbed. So there was very much that sense of the police being told one thing and then believing it without necessarily doing, doing that further investigation.
- [09:22]
Joe Pike
And then, Joe, just to, just to clarify the timeline of all of this. So the, the initial incident was in December last year. The guilty verdict in Southampton Crown Court was on Thursday and then the sentencing was yesterday. Which is now why politicians feel that they can, they can talk about this.
- [09:41]
Adam Fleming
Absolutely. As well as them all having watched that, that video, which is, as Lucy said, has prompted very similar reactions in politicians and journalists, I'm sure all newscasters too. What' about the political reaction is that, yes, some are talking about the sentence handed out to Vikram Digwa, a life sentence, but minimum of 21 years whether that should be increased and the Attorney General is reviewing it, may refer it to the Court of Appeal. But there's a second question over whether the laws around carrying knives for religious reasons should be changed. And the major debate, the most high profile debate over the past few hours has been over whether the police officers involved displayed some form of racial bias. Certainly both the Conservatives and Reform UK have today spoken of two tier policing. And I spoke earlier to Chris Philp, the Conservative Shadow Home Secretary, about what he thinks had actually happened there. And he said the way the officers handled the matter was a result of an ideology now embedded in training. He said there were programs and practices which promote the idea of ethnic minority victimhood and allow different races to be treated differently. Now, number 10's view is there is no two tier policing in the UK and this tragedy shouldn't be used to divide communities. But what I thought was most interesting about Keir Starmer's interview in the last hour or so, Adam, was that he did say there are serious questions over how that racism accusation, the original call to police being that there had been somebody being racially abused, how that informed how the police acted.
- [11:23]
Joe Pike
Well, let's listen to some of what Keir Starmer was saying. He was talking to journalists just before we started recording this episode of newscast about 6pm and this is one of those pool interviews where one person is asking him questions on behalf of everyone. And here is that bit of the interview that Joe was just referring to there.
- [11:38]
Keir Starmer
I have seen the body cam footage, it's harrowing. And I have to say, as a father of a 17 year old boy, I felt sick watching it. It is absolutely right that the IAPC are looking at this. There are clearly serious questions that need to be addressed, not least how accusations of racism inform the decision making in this case. But my thoughts, I'm sure the thoughts of everybody in the country are with Henry's family. His life has been stolen and they are understandably devastated. And that is where I start on this.
- [12:24]
Joe Pike
Yeah, quite emotional sounding, Keir Starmer there, Joe. Yeah, I'm really struck by your point that actually there's a parallel world where Keir Starmer would have said all the things about how terrible the crime is, how we've got to think about the family, how terrible it is that Henry's had his life stolen from him. A very vivid way of putting it. But actually there was a world where Keir Starmer might not have leant quite so far into the two tier policing, anti white racism allegations.
- [12:50]
Adam Fleming
Absolutely. And also Adam, I'd watched that interview. I'd not just heard it on its own for just the audio. And I hadn't noticed the tone in his voice, which is quite unlike Starmer. You can pick up real emotion, which I think is indicative of how a lot of politicians have reacted to today. I think it's also worth making the point that this is so, so sensitive and so, so difficult. But the judge did, and I was quite surprised seeing this. Towards the end of the sentencing, as Lucy touched on. He made so many arguments explaining the police's approach and then said at the end he thought the police officer was doing his best in a very difficult situation. That's obviously not the view of Henry Novak's family, who said they thought the treatment of Henry Novak was, quote, shocking. But it does show there are clearly quite different views of the approach and views of the justification and what might have been behind it. Even though we should point out that the pathologist was sadly very clear that no emergency medical treatment would have permitted access to the bleeding vein after that stabbing and therefore, effectively there was no chance of survival, however quickly first aid had been received or CPR had been received or even expert medical treatment.
- [14:09]
Joe Pike
And Lucy Keir Starmer there referred to something you'd said earlier on about the Independent Office of Police Conduct who are investigating this. Do we know anything more about that process?
- [14:18]
Lucy Manning
So the police watchdog are looking into this. We know that one officer has already resigned from. Involved in this, has resigned from the force. I think three officers in involved are still serving. There's been some concern about other officers who on social media have been wrongly identified as being involved in this and the Home Secretary, when she was in the House of Commons, said that one officer had had to be moved from their house because they'd been wrongly identified
- [14:48]
Joe Pike
and they were receiving death threats.
- [14:49]
Lucy Manning
Yeah, that. That's right. So. So the police watchdog will carry out a robust investigation into this. Looking at all the material. It's. It's likely to take a few months. The family obviously want answers. They spoke outside court yesterday saying that they wanted answers. And I think. I think where we're left on this is obviously as. As Joe touched on the reactions from the politicians showing real emotion. Star, the Prime Minister saying how he felt sick having seen this and yes, it's footage that has shocked the whole country. But behind all this is obviously a family that. That answers. And the Novak family said that Henry hadn't been allowed to die with dignity and. But they were quite clear that they didn't want this to ferment further division in the country.
- [15:46]
Joe Pike
And Joe, you referred to Nigel Farage because he did what he described as an address to the nation this morning, which was actually a video that he posted on social media and he used incredibly strong language.
- [15:57]
Adam Fleming
He certainly did. It was on, on Twitter, on X, sort of a live broadcast this morning. He said the accusation of a racial slur was treated more seriously than an act of murder. And he also said we're living in a two tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities. He talked about the DEI agenda was also linking all of this to more common reform arguments around mass immigration. He seemed to be. I read it. I don't know what you thought. Adam seemed to be implying that police were acting with racial bias. Kimmy Badenoch, she disagreed with Nigel Farage today, saying this is not about him, it's about Henry Novak. But she also did say something has gone very horribly wrong with policing. She spoke about an over correction and actually that was a sort of term that Shabana Mahmood also used in the Commons later in the day. And what was fascinating, I suppose, is that those two parties on the right were disagreeing on this. But actually at the heart of their arguments in terms of what could actually change is a view that some of the training they believe is wrong. And they point in particular Tories to the police anti racism commitment from the National Police Chief's Counsel. And that commitment which talks of producing equality of policing outcomes for people is very problematic because it's not about policing outcomes being equalized, because as it says in this document, it does not mean treating everyone the same or being colourblind. And the argument certainly from the conservatives is everyone should be treated equally. And they argue this, you know, this sort of training has led to this, even though I'm not sure we've seen sort of definitive evidence of that so far.
- [17:54]
Joe Pike
It just reminds me of the era of Black Lives Matter at their peak and the death of George Floyd and of course the chilling echoes of not being able to breathe there, which is a sort of strange echo through history from this.
- [18:06]
Adam Fleming
He said that nine. Henry Novak said that nine times, Adam. So absolutely an echo.
- [18:12]
Joe Pike
This idea of anti racism, Lucy, which is not the same as disliking racism or thinking racism is bad. Anti racism is actively doing things and putting policies in place and changing how your organization works and being quite explicit about calling things out when you feel racism has occurred. And so that when Nigel Farage and Kemi Banuk Refer to anti racism. They're referring to a sort of package of behaviors and things that have been deployed by the police in the wake of the George Floyd killing in America.
- [18:42]
Lucy Manning
Yes. Well, I mean, Nigel Farage referred to the George Floyd killing and said all these people that got down on. On one knee sort of, where are, where are they now? And, and Kami Badenoch made the point and said, you know, we're talking about not black lives matters or white lives matters, but all lives matter, which itself
- [19:03]
Joe Pike
used to be considered a slightly racist phrase.
- [19:05]
Lucy Manning
Yeah. Because over the George Floyd kill. Floyd killing, it was that all the black lives matters, specifically in this case,
- [19:15]
Joe Pike
because you said all lives matter, that you didn't think black lives matter.
- [19:19]
Lucy Manning
That's right. So I think that pendulum has swung somewhat the other way. Not obviously, not for everyone, but certainly in the political conversation that that has swung. And I suppose it. It depends how far this goes. I mean, this evening there is a. Not a massive protest. Reporters down In Southampton say 200 to 300 people, including Tommy Robinson, outside Southampton police station. But the police and crime commissioner for that area met with the Novak family this afternoon. And in an interview with the BBC, she said that the family didn't want protests across the country. So I think there has to be some care taken to bear in mind what the family wants. I suppose the fear of might be that this ends up. That Henry's Novak's death ends up becoming very politicized. I mean, obviously it's fine for the politicians to speak out today in the light of what has happened, but certainly the sense from the family, from what they were saying yesterday, yes, they want the answers from the police and they want to know what happened to their son and how this was allowed to happen. But yesterday they talked about not wanting that division today through the, the Police and Crime Commission, and they've talked about not wanting the protests. So it's, it's a difficult. A difficult balance.
- [20:39]
Joe Pike
Yeah. And that was echo Keir Starmer in the last bit of his interview that he did. And I promised I'd play some more of it. And so here is where Keir Starmer is quoting Henry Novak's family.
- [20:48]
Keir Starmer
Well, I think Nigel Farage's reaction is the wrong reaction. And I start my answer to your question. Through the eyes of the family. They have said they do not want this whipped up. They have been through the most extraordinary, awful experience. They don't want this whipped up. And Nigel Farage is completely wrong to use this to try and create division. He would be wrong in Any circumstances. But when Henry's family are saying, please don't do that, it's our son, then really, as politicians, as human beings, we should start where they start. And that's where I start.
- [21:33]
Joe Pike
And, Joe, in terms of reactions from the Sikh community, I mean, it's, It's. It's never wise to just generalize about a whole group of people about what they think about something that. That they're actually not directly involved in, but feeling the effects of nonetheless. But there was a moment in the House of Commons today where one of the mps who is Sikh intervened.
- [21:52]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, Tandesi, probably the most prominent Sikh in the House of Commons, the Labour MP who chairs the Defense Select Committee. He seemed to be. There seemed to be tension between him and Reform UK MPs sitting opposite him. And sort of proceedings stopped for a few moments. I think Robert Generic was certainly there. Richard Tyson, so Ella Bravman as well. I think Tandesi talked about the indignity of Henry Novak's final moments and how it should never happen again. But also he said it was very galling. Reform UK as well as Restore Rupert Lowe's party, have, he said, decided to politicise people's pain by attacking the Sikh community for wearing ceremonial Kirpan knives, even though that wasn't the kind of knife used in the attack. He said reformers decided to scapegoat and throw under the bus an entire community. I'm sure that's something Reform UK might contest. But on the point of the Sikh community, it was interesting that the judge said to the murderer, in this case, to Vikram Digra, that you have brought shame on you upon your family, your community and your religion. Your actions have stirred up racial tension in Southampton and across the country, which have made many Sikhs worried about their own safety, even though they have done absolutely nothing wrong.
- [23:14]
Lucy Manning
And the family did put out a statement today.
- [23:19]
Adam Fleming
The.
- [23:20]
Lucy Manning
The murderer's family, they. They put out a statement. It was from an unnamed family member, and they said that they felt deep sorrow for the Novak family. But in that, they also said, we apologize to the Sikh community for our son's actions, which have unfairly brought the community into disrepute. But actually, a number of those family members were back in court today because there were further charges. Digwa's brother and father are facing charges for possessing offensive weapons, and they were in court today. And Digwa himself is facing further charges for possessing offensive weapons.
- [23:58]
Joe Pike
We should say that that's separate legal proceedings from the trial that we've been talking about up till Now.
- [24:03]
Lucy Manning
Yeah, that's right.
- [24:04]
Joe Pike
Lots to think about. Lucy, thank you so much. I know you've got lots of other reporting to do tonight, so thank you.
- [24:08]
Lucy Manning
Thank you.
- [24:10]
Joe Pike
And Jo, one last thing for you. We've been learning more today about Keir Starmer's WhatsApp habits. This is in the context of ministers having to hand over their Mandelson related whatsapps for the humble address that we were discussing at length in the previous episode of Newscast.
- [24:22]
Adam Fleming
Exactly. And what was strange about that big document dump was that, yes, one minister, Pat McFadden and his WhatsApps appeared a lot. But what about the Prime Minister's whatsapps with Lord Mandelson, Rachel Reeves's David Lammes, who was the Foreign Secretary for a lot of this period and the Prime Minister who appointed him? Well, Downing street have today confirmed that Keir Starmer does use auto delete on his WhatsApp messages. So they disappear. I'm not quite sure how long before they delete. Some people use 90 days or seven days or even shorter. Certainly I've been checking the whatsapps of a lot of high profile ministers today who do seem to have auto delete. They have defended it and they've said the Prime Minister has done nothing wrong. He actually said something similar, saying he's complied with a humble address. All the messages he holds have been passed over. Of course, he doesn't hold all of the messages. I went through the same process as everybody else and many people, not just in politics, use disappearing messages. But there are wider questions and concerns about transparency of government, but also about record keeping when big decisions are made or there are important conversations about major government policy. There are certainly people in Westminster, Adam, who think there should be a paper trail. It's only right to have a government with a paper trail. And that's quite difficult if you have senior politicians contacting each other with disappearing messages on WhatsApp.
- [25:46]
Joe Pike
And Joe, as you were talking, I just checked whether you've got disappearing messages on and you don't. And it means that I can see the last message that you sent me. Do you know what it was?
- [25:54]
Adam Fleming
Oh, God.
- [25:54]
Joe Pike
It's not embarrassing, don't worry.
- [25:56]
Adam Fleming
I don't know.
- [25:57]
Joe Pike
It's a recommendation for some good pub grub near Winston Churchill's old home, Chartwell. That's the kind of high level banter Joe and I have.
- [26:04]
Adam Fleming
But also, why as a journalist, would you want these messages? Because you can't go back and check out what, what somebody said. And indeed, if you have, if you were to Arrange, I don't know, a meal at a pub near Chartwell and then it deletes. I mean, we forgot what time, you know, we were going to meet or what, you know, who was coming. I mean, it's a sort of. It's a nightmare. Why would you have deleted messages apart from. To cover your tracks? Some might argue.
- [26:24]
Joe Pike
Some might argue, says the BBC journalist. Joe, thank you very much.
- [26:27]
Adam Fleming
Thank you, Adam.
- [26:37]
Joe Pike
Now, something very different, because earlier on Today, I caught up with James Cook, the BBC Scotland editor and regular host of newscast, because he was watching court proceedings in Edinburgh, where the former chief executive of the SNP and the estranged husband of Nicholas Sturgeon, Peter Murrell, was appearing. He was led in wearing handcuffs to hear this narrative, which is a device in Scottish law where the prosecution and the defense agree, a sequence of events that happened when somebody has pled guilty. So in lieu of a trial where all the evidence is laid out, this is what we got instead. And a lawyer read out a quite lengthy statement where he basically said what the prosecution and the defence had agreed about. Peter Murrell's embezzlement of £400,000 from the Scottish National Party over a decade. And here is the take on that from James Cook.
- [27:33]
James Cook
Hello, Adam, how are you?
- [27:34]
Joe Pike
Very well, thank you. So, before we get into what a Crown narrative is and what was contained therein, how was the fact that we were actually watching this being streamed live this morning from the court? How did that come about?
- [27:45]
James Cook
It's very, very unusual. And it came about because basically we, on behalf of the public, are constantly asking courts, all sorts of courts in all sorts of places, to widen access, to consider a more open approach to justice. And in fairness to the Scottish Court Service, they've helpful, especially in this case, and they allowed us, very unusually, not unprecedented, but very unusually, to have a camera in the courtroom. I was talking to our cameraman, Andy, who shot that, and he. He did say, and I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, he did say he was a bit nervous about that shot, you know, because it's quite a shot to get. You've only got, you know, it's very rare to get it, a shot of. Of someone who's been. Who's pled guilty to a crime coming into the dock. Really unusual. And you wanted to make sure you got it right. And he. And he did. He did it beautif.
- [28:37]
Joe Pike
Well, congratulations to Andy for some fine camera work as the nation was watching. And then, because we're a podcast, James, and we don't have that Many pictures paint a picture of how Peter Morrow looked and what the court was like.
- [28:49]
James Cook
I mean, the courtroom was packed. It's courtroom number three at the High Court in Edinburgh, just on the lawn markets, quite near the top of the Royal Mile. It's always thronged outside with tourists and then making a lot of noise. And then inside, obviously, very, very quiet as he was led in. And the court was packed mainly with journalists. A few lawyers there as well, who'd come just to have a look, some of them to see lawyers working on other cases. I mean, not lawyers who were involved, who'd come in to see Peter Murrell being brought in. Because this case, Adam, as you know, has been, you know, really, really covered very extensively on the BBC, not least by. By us newscasters, obviously be very familiar with it, and with Laura Kuenssberg's interview at the weekend. So, yeah, a lot of attention, lots of interest. And I thought he looked pretty grim as he was brought in. He stared straight ahead through much of the hearing. Once or twice he sort of puffed his cheeks. But Peter Murrell staring straight ahead and just as these extraordinary litany of crimes was read out and you just. I was staring at him for most of the hearing, Adam, thinking, what were you thinking? You know, why did you do this? And how on earth did you think you would get away with it with corruption on such a scale?
- [30:08]
Joe Pike
And even though we got lots of detail, we actually didn't get anything about what his motivation was, nothing.
- [30:15]
James Cook
And so I think we got the how and the what. Today we had a bit of the what already. We had a bit more of the how in terms of the falsification of invoices and the fact that the infamous, now infamous motorhome that he paid 125,000 doll of SNP funds towards, as we find out a few more details about that, such as that it had only ever done four miles. I noticed in the picture that the Crown, the prosecution released to us that there's a sticker on the optional television which he chose to have added, that hadn't even been removed. It looked like it had never been used. We heard about that and we heard a lot more detail, but we didn't get any, as you say, we didn't get any insight into why he had done this. And we will perhaps get some of that on the 23rd of June, because there's the court hearing then for sentencing. Murrell will appear at that point for sentencing and there will be a plea in mitigation. There's also a social Work report, which is standard, being carried out at the moment. And so between those two things, his defence lawyer's plea in mitigation and the social work report maybe would get a glimpse, an insight into his mind. Because it's really, Adam. Really hard to fathom, isn't it, at the moment?
- [31:28]
Joe Pike
And just on the campervan, I mean, there was a few things about the camper van alongside the fact that it had only been driven four miles. But I thought that was really interesting because there's this sort of idea has emerged that he bought it so he could go on jaunts. And the evidence for that was that after buying the campervan, he bought these guidebooks for how to have a great camper van holiday in England and Wales.
- [31:46]
James Cook
Yeah, exactly. England and Wales. And then Ireland and Scotland bought them on Amazon, I think, the next day. The prosecution were at pains to point out today, and remember, this is not contested. This is an agreed narrative. You said that at the start. It's a narrative which is basically the point at which the prosecutor in the case reads out some of the. What we would have heard in evidence had he pleaded not guilty and had this gone to trial. But the point is, none of it's contested. The defence has agreed that all of the facts are facts that it accepts happened in terms of the guilty plea. So when they say that this was kitted out for pleasure and not for business, this camper van, that's accepted now by model, because there was a suggestion, not least given by Nicola Sturgeon when she talked to Laura, that model had said, oh, we bought it so we could campaign around the country safely during COVID And the prosecution were saying there was no evidence of that, there was no campaign material, there was no branding and indeed there were, you know, molten brown toiletries and so on. Not that you couldn't have those while you were campaigning, necessarily. But the point is, there were, you know, it looked like it had been kitted out for pleasure, as the prosecution put it.
- [32:58]
Joe Pike
And then you mentioned that we learned more about the techniques he used to embezzle the money. So things like using an SMP charge card to buy things that were not for the snp, and then using his own credit card, or saying he'd used his own credit card to buy things by accident so he could then get reimbursed by the smp.
- [33:16]
James Cook
Yeah, that's right. Claiming dodgy expenses, basically. Expenses to which he was not entitled. And not just using his charge card, but using charge cards, said the prosecution. The names of two other snp staff members, and to be clear, the Crown, the advocate depute, as he is formerly known, the prosecutor, was at pains to point out that those people did not know about it was without their knowledge, no suggestion that these other people in the SNP were involved, far from it, those people with the charge cards. So, yeah, he tried to cover his tracks and for a while he did cover his tracks. And that brings us to the heart of the political row. Adam, you know what? How was it possible that he was able to get away with this for so long? Were there problems with the SNP's procedures? Were there problems with the culture within the SNP of closing down, criticism and queries and concerns being raised? And they were raised. Nicola Sturgeon says, to be clear, they were not raised specifically about the idea that anyone was embezzling money, but there were concerns raised that money had gone missing, there was missing money. And then we get into a bit of a debate about, well, there's almost two different things going on here. Because there was £600,000 or so raised directly through an appeal to party members and other donors that was supposed to be ring fenced to spend on a future independence referendum campaign or to try to advance the cause of independence. And it seems to have been spent on day to day activities such as fighting a general election. And that was, I think, what initially prompted the concerns or questions about where that money had gone. But, you know, so it's the question about if that money could just come in and go out and the S and P say, well, we would have spent, you know, that was okay, it was up and down and we would have spent that money on the end on independence. Just the cash was flowing in and out of the party. But, you know, had they been more curious, had they been more critical, had their procedures been more robust, could they have caught these crimes and exposed the deceit at the heart of these crimes? Earlier, many of their critics say they could have. And indeed John Swinney, the current First Minister and SNP leader, says, sort of almost implicitly acknowledges that, because he says, I have tightened up the governance of the party since then, I have made improvements in terms of how many people have to approve accounts, in terms of the who can report. And in terms of he actually said today, which I thought was quite striking, he said something along the lines of, you know, now if people come forward with complaints, they'll be taken seriously. I paraphrase, it was words to that effect. But I mean, the implication was they hadn't been before.
- [35:51]
Joe Pike
And also there was A little insight into what Nicola Sturgeon was saying about how much he'd covered his tracks. So for example, there was this. A few times he would buy things and then claim that they were things like studio lighting, presumably for the SMP's HQ, so they could film videos and stuff. And then he would put in a false entry on the SMP's register of its assets of stuff that it owned, labeled lighting, but for lights that never existed because he used that money for something else.
- [36:20]
James Cook
Exactly.
- [36:21]
Joe Pike
And he backed up with a false invoice from the lighting company.
- [36:24]
James Cook
Yeah, there was lots of that. False invoices and lies in the S and P computer system. Let me give you another couple of examples and I will have to look at notes for these because there are so many more than a thousand items, but just one at each end of the scale, you know, which I think gives you a degree, extent of the scope. He spent around £9,000 on the purchase of two Bremont watches. I must say I was not, I don't, I'm not familiar with Bremen watches, Adam. Maybe you are.
- [36:53]
Joe Pike
No, me neither, I wasn't.
- [36:55]
James Cook
But they were expensive. Anyway, about, you know, four.
- [36:57]
Joe Pike
My watch tastes are much more humble than that, just to be clear.
- [37:00]
James Cook
Yes, exactly, mine too. Anyway, these two Bremen watches, he recorded them as event merchandise and then right at the other end of the scale he entered a 23 pound 98 silicon egg poacher, silicone egg poacher in the accounting software as Ethernet cabling. So you know, it's just a couple of, of examples at either ends of the scale.
- [37:23]
Joe Pike
And for people who don't remember Ethernet cables because we don't use them very much, they're the cables that you plug into to get the Internet through the wall rather than using wi fi.
- [37:31]
James Cook
I think so, yeah.
- [37:33]
Joe Pike
Adam Fleming, University era tech. Yeah, and so, yeah. Anything else that struck out from this narrative?
- [37:42]
James Cook
The home library. The home library, including like a ladder.
- [37:46]
Adam Fleming
Yeah.
- [37:46]
James Cook
Included a 953 pound wooden ladder in this very expensive fitted home Libra, paid for by SNP Cash, which we have pictures of thanks to Nicola Sturgeon's social media accounts. And that what they told us about that today was that they, they'd removed some things from the house, such as a three and a half thousand pound silver wine coaster, which blows my mind cuz that seems a lot of money for a wine coaster, but it looked quite complex and weird. But even so, I mean, seems a lot of money to put your drink down, just get a wee mat. Anyway, they removed some things including the Coaster. But they presumably really decided they couldn't remove or weren't going to remove an entire library. So that's still there. And that gets into another question, which is proceeds of crime. Because there will be a process now to try to recover some of the money. The police. I thought this was interesting that the prosecutors said the police had not recovered a majority of the items that were. That the embezzled money was spent on. So they have less than half of the whole haul. And there will now be a process to try to recover money. And presumably there's going to. I want. I imagine there'll be a degree of argument about that. I mean, the couple, you know, Peter Murrell and Nicola Sturgeon, they're estranged now. And she insists she was deceived, lied to, says, as we know in Laura's interview, that, you know, she knew absolutely nothing about this. But there's gonna be a bun fight, I think, over assets to try to recover money.
- [39:21]
Joe Pike
And even the idea of that seemed to come as quite a shock to Nicola Sturgeon when Laura raised it to her.
- [39:25]
James Cook
Well, I thought it was interesting. Yeah. Laura raised the idea of the house and Nicola Sturgeon was. I thought that was the point at which she pushed back most against Laura in that interview where she said. She basically said, why should I, you know, why should I give up things that were mine? But I think that's the whole point and it's why Laura asked the question. Cause there's gonna be of debate about what is yours and what's his and how it's divided and what are marital assets and what are joint assets. I mean, I'm no expert in that, but that's going to be a nightmare.
- [39:57]
Joe Pike
What's the status of something that was bought with embezzled goods? So bought fraudulently and then given as a gift to somebody who you're not divorced from yet.
- [40:05]
James Cook
I mean, that's what the lawyers have to work out. I was going to try to answer that, but then I decided it's probably better not to. I mean, embezzled goods are embezzled goods, aren't they? But I'm not a lawyer.
- [40:14]
Joe Pike
The other big learning for me from this is just how much luxury stuff you can buy if you've got lo money. So the BBC has got this thing on the website where it's a searchable list of. Of things that Peter Merrell bought. The hundreds and hundreds of things. And the thing that kind of blows my mind is a thing called a cup warmer. So I looked into this. This is basically that if You've got a posh coffee machine. They recommend that you don't get the coffee to straight into a room temperature mug because that's bad for the coffee. So you can buy a. A mug warmer that warms your mug so it's the right temperature to receive the coffee from the spout of the coffee machine. And he bought several of them and two of them cost 363 pounds. 14.
- [40:56]
James Cook
And I think a political problem here for the S and P is the extent to which Nicola Sturgeon is leaning into this idea of we were not a normal household, we had loads of money, it wasn't suspicious because we were so. She doesn't say we were so rich, but that's what she means. And for a party, it's just interesting. I cannot imagine if she were in office that. I just think that's easier for her to say out of office than it would be in office for a party of the left, you know, a party that proudly proclaims its concern for reducing poverty because it's very striking. Now, perhaps in fairness, perhaps all politics, perhaps it's just nonsense for politicians to pretend that they are, oh, we're of the people and we're, you know, maybe most politicians are earning considerably more than the average wage, but I think the political messaging there is quite striking and you can't imagine that she'd be happy with that if she were in office. But that's interesting because there's a lot of people asking lots of questions about Nicola Sturgeon here, but she has no. It's not like she's gonna be forced from office. I'm not quite sure what people think is going to happen. You know, the police have investigated her and decided there was not the evidence to charge her and she was released without charge. So I'm not sure what those who are sort of loudly calling for criticizing Nicola Sargent. I don't see what will happen to her or what they want to happen to her necessarily. Whereas John Swinney, it's different. He's in office and he is still facing loud calls for some sort of inquiry. I spoke to the former First Minister, Labour's Jack McConnell, this morning, who wants a joint parliamentary inquiry, which has never happened before, of Holyrood and Westminster together to look into the issues surrounding this case. Case.
- [42:33]
Joe Pike
Well, James, I will let you move on to prepare your piece for the 6 o' clock news, which will be very avidly watched by many millions of people. So thank you very much.
- [42:41]
James Cook
Thanks, Adam.
- [42:49]
Joe Pike
And that's all for this episode of Newscast. Thank you very much for listening. Just a little bit of advance warning. We are messing up the schedule of newscast this week because we're going to broadcast and upload the weekly episode of Bile Action Cast on Wednesday. So you will be getting your weekly dose of news from Makerfield a few days early this week. And then there'll be regular newscasts after that.
- [43:12]
Adam Fleming
Bye bye.
- [43:13]
James Cook
Newscast.
- [43:14]
Lucy Manning
Newscast from the BBC.
- [43:15]
Adam Fleming
Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.