Will Henry Nowak’s Murder Change Policing?

Summary

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Newscast (BBC) – “Will Henry Nowak’s Murder Change Policing?”

Date: June 6, 2026
Host: Laura Kuenssberg
Guest: Danny Shaw (BBC Home Affairs Correspondent and policing expert)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Newscast explores the aftermath of the tragic murder of 18-year-old Henry Novak in Southampton and examines its ramifications for policing, law, and race relations in the UK. The discussion navigates sensitive territory, addressing political exploitation of the case, the legacy of anti-racism efforts in policing, and public concerns about “two-tier policing.” Laura Kuenssberg and Danny Shaw aim to separate fact from rhetoric and highlight the family’s call for calm and sensible reform.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Novak Family’s Plea & Political Reactions

• [02:03] Family calls for "real solutions" over "knee jerk reactions"

  • Emphasize investment in prevention, stricter knife laws, and “common sense” approaches to law and order
  • Reject framing the case as about religion or racism:

    “This is not a case about Sikhism. This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder.” – Novak Family Representative [02:36]

• [02:42] The US Vice President J.D. Vance stokes controversy with a post on X, blaming "the mass invasion of migrants" despite Henry’s killer being UK-born:

  “Henry Novak died the same way a civilization died...abandoned, handcuffed by the authorities who neither trusted nor cared for him...if the last few generations of European elites had stood their ground against the politics of self hatred and the mass invasion of migrants.” – JD Vance [02:42]

  • Laura and Danny highlight the inaccuracies and perceived political opportunism.
  • “They’re just trying to conflate this tragic murder and the failings of the police…and mix those in with immigration and it’s just wrong, it’s dangerous, and it’s deeply unhelpful in my view.” – Danny Shaw [05:11]

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2. Two-Tier Policing: Myth or Reality?

• Origins and Usage

  • The phrase originated with Tommy Robinson (2012/14), moved into mainstream use amid discussions of racialized policing responses after riots.

• Danny Shaw’s Analysis

  • [06:35] Argues two-tier policing, as depicted by some politicians, doesn’t represent UK policing as a whole.
  • Points to historic and recent cases (grooming gangs, West Midlands policing of Israeli football match) as exceptions, not the rule.
  • Data shows minorities, especially Black people, get a rougher deal from the justice system – not the reverse:

    “If any group is more disadvantaged in terms of policing and the criminal justice system, it’s Black people in particular and ethnic minorities in general.” – Danny Shaw [07:41]

• Disproportionality in Police Treatment

  • Black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched, twice as likely to be arrested, and receive longer prison sentences than white people.
  • Acknowledges not all disparities stem from discrimination—socioeconomic factors also play a part, but bias remains.

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3. Anti-racism Policies and Unintended Consequences

• The Challenge of Guidance

  • Controversy over police guidance stating “people shouldn’t be treated the same” [10:08].
  • Both discuss the difficulty for officers navigating complex, sometimes contradictory, guidance in high-pressure situations.
  • Quote from current anti-racism guidelines:

    “…producing equality of policing outcomes...by responding to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances, and experiences…It does not mean treating everyone the same or being colorblind…” [16:45]

  • Danny calls this “gobbledygook” and a source of confusion and overcorrection for officers.

• Legacy of the MacPherson Report

  • The report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence (1993) was seminal for anti-racism efforts in policing [13:33].
  • Huge reforms followed, but the challenge shifted following the murder of George Floyd (2020), which led to further anti-racism action plans in UK policing [15:20].
  • Danny supports reviewing anti-racism policies to check for overcorrection and relevance to current realities.

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4. The Dilemma of Cautious Policing and Internal Anxiety

• Police Officers’ Caution

  • Some officers may be “too cautious” in handling cases involving race, for fear of being accused of racism.
  • Danny notes this extends even to discipline for Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) officers, with more being formally disciplined rather than handled informally:

    “…their managers and superiors are so scared…that they say, right, I’ll play everything by the book, so they escalate it into a misconduct process…” – Danny Shaw [19:09]

• Political Weaponization & Public Sentiment

  • Reform UK and others claim white people are now disadvantaged—an assertion Danny disputes with overall statistics.

  • “We’re living in a two-tier culture in this country with the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities.” – Quoting Nigel Farage [20:49]

  • Danny suggests some anecdotal grievances are more about political narratives and unintended consequences than systematic anti-white discrimination [23:00].

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5. Inquiries and the Path Forward

• Multiple Reviews Underway
  • Ongoing police, government, and independent watchdog investigations into the Novak case and guidance reviews [23:53].
  • Danny supports the current independent investigations, suggesting additional inquiries are unnecessary unless new findings emerge.
  • “At the moment the officers involved are being treated as witnesses, … but that can change.” – Danny Shaw [24:17]

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6. Knife Crime, Legislation, and the Religious Exception

• Family’s Legislative Focus

  • Novak family calls for tightening the law around Sikh ceremonial knives (kirpans), currently exempted under Section 47 (2019).
  • Danny supports reviewing the law, noting the need to balance religious sensitivities with public safety:

    “I understand there are religious sensitivities, I get that, but that doesn't mean that we have to bow to every single tenet of religion...particularly when it comes to those longer blades.” – Danny Shaw [26:02]

• Wider Knife Crime Context

  • Both agree the broader prevalence of knife crime should not be lost amidst the race and policing debate.
  • A letter from Sikh MPs underscores this case is about murder, not religion, and shows willingness for pragmatic debate on ceremonial knife laws [27:04].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Family’s Core Message:

  “We need real solutions. We need investment in prevention. We need stronger action on…the carrying of all knives. This doesn't mean knee jerk reactions. It just means a common sense approach…” – Family Representative [02:03]

• On Overcomplicated Guidance:

  “It's a complete word salad...I can't begin to think how a young police constable...meant to navigate that...It's dreadful.” – Danny Shaw [16:42]

• On Systemic Disparities:

  “Black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched, twice as likely to be arrested...If they're convicted, their prison sentences are 10 months longer on average than white people...” – Danny Shaw [09:16]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:03] Family’s statement: plea for calm and focus on solutions
• [02:42] JD Vance’s social media intervention
• [06:35] Discussion: Is “two-tier policing” real?
• [09:16] Statistical evidence on policing disparities
• [13:33] History and impact of MacPherson Report
• [16:45] Critique of anti-racism guidance “gobbledygook”
• [19:09] Internal police dynamics: anxiety around accusations of racism
• [23:53] Investigations & reviews: next steps
• [26:02] Call for knife legislation reform

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Conclusion

This episode provides nuanced insight into the difficult issues surrounding the Henry Novak case. Rather than amplifying volatile political rhetoric, Laura Kuenssberg and Danny Shaw emphasize statistics, historical context, and the complexity of policing in a diverse society. Their discussion advocates for thoughtful review of anti-racism policies, clarity in guidance, and a renewed focus on confronting knife crime—while honoring the Novak family’s plea for practical, non-partisan solutions.

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Transcript

[Danny Shaw]

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

there's been one huge story dominating the news every day this week and it relates to a terrible tragedy for one family, the death of 18 year old Henry Novak, who was killed in Southampton in December. He was just on his way home from a night out, but the sentencing of his killer this week has prompted a huge and angry conversation in this country about policing, about race, and fuel has been poured on the fire in the last 24 hours. With none other than the Vice President of the United States, J.D. vance, piling in to the row. It's become a huge and fraught argument between reform, the conservatives, the government and the other parties and exactly what the family of Henry did not want to happen. Let's start today with their plea outside the court on Monday. For politicians and all of us to stay calm.

[Henry Novak's Family Representative]

We need real solutions. We need investment in prevention. We need stronger action on the sale, the ownership and carrying of all knives. And as this case so painfully demonstrates, we need common sense applied to our laws. This doesn't mean knee jerk reactions. This doesn't mean going to extremes. It just means a common sense approach to law and order. As the case see for the prosecution summed up in court. This is not a case about Sikhism. This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Compare Mr. Novak's statement with what JD Vance posted on X yesterday. He said Henry Novak died the same way a civilization died, abandoned, handcuffed by the authorities who neither trusted nor cared for him, accused of hate crimes he didn't commit. He should still be alive today and he would be if the last Few generations of European elites had stood their ground against the politics of self hatred and the mass invasion of migrants. Now we know that Henry's killer was born and lived in the United Kingdom. We don't know if J.D. vance knows that. We don't know if he would think it was relevant or indeed if politicians are just wanting to pile into this row for their own purposes. We'll talk about all of that, these sensitive issues on Saturday's edition of. Newscast, Newscast, newscast. From the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.

[Henry Novak's Family Representative]

Six, seven.

[Danny Shaw]

Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Daddy has. Has also a special connotation. Ooh, Laura.

[Danny Shaw]

Thinking about it like a panter helped.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Do we play music now or what do we do? It's Laura in the studio now. Paddy isn't with us this weekend, as you will have noticed. Bereft as I am, I'm pleased to say. On this Saturday newscast, we're recording at 24 minutes past one, I'm joined by Danny Shaw, formerly of this parish, BBC and legal and Home affairs correspondent for a long time. And then, Danny, you were part of the team that prepared Yvette Cooper to move into government as Home Secretary and now you are super brain on all things crime and policing, is that.

[Danny Shaw]

Well, it's nice of you to say so, Laura, but it's good to be sitting here with you on this Saturday afternoon.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, it's very nice to have you here because this is a sensitive issue and newscasters like facts and like insight and there are very inflammatory ways of talking about this whole debate. And what we're going to try and do with the benefit of you this afternoon is to step through some of what we know and some of them what we don't know, and maybe place it in the context of these issues around policing and race and that have been fraught for many, many, many years. First of all, then, we've got this extraordinary online post from JD Vance late last night. Downing street very unhappy about what he said. I just wonder what you made of that. Seeing it online pop up late last night or early this morning, whenever you saw it.

[Danny Shaw]

I mean, it doesn't surprise me that, you know, senior members of the. Of the Trump administration are now wading into this after Elon Musk has had. Of course they're entitled to say what they want, they can have an opinion, but they're just trying to stir things up in the uk. They're trying to Conflate now this tragic murder and the failings of the police, and they were failings with immigration and mix those, you know, in all together and it's, it's just wrong, it's dangerous and it's deeply unhelpful, in my view.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Let's then talk about the facts and forget about the politics for a bit. So this awful case has led to a. A reheat with more heat, if you like, over this question of two tier policing. Now, the phrase two tier was actually first used in this context many years ago, first of all by Tommy Robinson, Stephen Axley, Lennon back in, I think 2012 or 2014 for the first time. But it really came into more common usage in the mainstream in 20 when we saw the response to these riots after those terrible killings in Southport. But with all of your experience, Danny, is two tier policing a real thing?

[Danny Shaw]

Not in the way that I think it is being portrayed by, you know, by Tommy Robinson, by Nigel Farage, by some people in the Conservative Party as well. I don't believe that that is a description that applies to the police service in the uk. I think there are cases and there are incidents that you can absolutely look at and say, why did the police act this way? Were they scared of being accused of racism? And you talked about the grooming gang scandal and Louise Casey, in her interim review actually pointed to that fact that in some cases, you know, the police didn't act as they should have done because of those concerns. You might also point to the West Midlands police row over Maccabi Tel Aviv and say that the way that West Midlands police responded to the concerns about that football match that was going to take place at Villa park by effectively banning Maccabi Tel Aviv from coming.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And that was an Israeli football team going to play a match where there were concerns in Birmingham.

[Danny Shaw]

Exactly. And the West Midlands Chief constable resigned ultimately over that. Not just in. In what they did, but also the responded to that. You can say that that was an example of the police not responding appropriately to community concerns and sort of leaning too far in their direction, you could say. So you can find incidents. But does that characterize the nature of policing in Britain at the moment? No, I don't think it does. I mean, you know, if anything, if any group is more disadvantaged in terms of policing and the criminal justice system, it's black people in particular and ethnic minorities in general. And the statistics tend to support that. And you know the BBC Panorama program on Charing Cross police station, which came out at the end of last year and which has led to 10 police officers being found guilty of gross misconduct shows that there are pockets of racism and anti migrant views and misogyny deeply embedded in some parts of the police service. I cannot believe that that's the only police custody suite or the only police station where some of those views have taken hold. So that's. If there is a problem, I think that's still where it lies.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So it's really important then to suggest, to say, as you've suggested, that if you look at the big picture, the overwhelming message from the statistics is that it is minorities who still get a rougher deal. That's what you're saying overall.

[Danny Shaw]

And I'm not saying that all the racial disparities are due to discrimination. For example, black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched, twice as likely to be arrested than white people. And if they're convicted, their prison sentences are 10 months longer on average than white people. That's an example of disproportionality and disparity. That doesn't mean it's due to bias or discrimination. There are some socioeconomic reasons and some demographic factors that are playing into that beyond the control of policing. But there may also be some unconscious bias and some systemic discrimination as well, still in the service. But it's worth just reminding ourselves of those figures when there's a complaint that a white person has got a tougher sentence than a black person or something like that. Just let us remind ourselves of those overall figures.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So that is the big picture, and you've explained that very clearly. But do you think in recent years that there has been a culture created where police officers trying to do their best are too sensitive to the fear of offending or the fear of being accused of racism? And I think a lot of newscasters and a lot of members of the public might have been quite surprised this week when they read, because it's been discussed a lot when they read or heard about the guidance sent out by police chiefs that does say clearly in text, people shouldn't be treated the same. Now, to most people, I think reading that, you think, well, hang on a minute, I thought we were all meant to be equal before, before the law. How on earth is it that that's the guidance being given to police officers? So, so, so let's just explain where you think that came from. And then I'd love to know if you think that something has gone awry in the efforts to tackle that big picture we've been discussing.

[Danny Shaw]

So I think broadly speaking, I think there needs to be a Fundamental review of the anti racism guidance policies and training in the police service. And I think now will be a really good moment to do that. I know that there is a. The National Police Chief's Council, the leadership body for policing in England and Wales, is looking at that anti racism commitment guidance that you cited. But I think it needs to be broader than that. And the reason is because I think there has been potentially an overcorrection. We had the McPherson report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence that reported in 1999 and made a series of recommendations which were absolutely right for their time. Not just about discrimination and racism, but about the way that the police conducted themselves in terms of murder investigations and family liaison and all sorts of things. And that was generally regarded as an absolutely, you know, correct series of recommendations.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It was a sort of breakthrough moment as well, wasn't it? Person from newscasters who might not remember or who weren't around because it's quite some time ago now. That was a real moment of realization. And all this has been thrown into the harsh glare of public discussion, Danny, hasn't it, because of this awful case around what happened to Henry Novak, where just to remind ourselves, his killer had told the police that he was the one who'd been racially abused when he made a 999 call. The police officers then arrived at the scene thinking that and didn't then respond to Henry Novak's pleas for help, instead. Instead handcuffing him and arresting him as he lay bleeding on the ground. And that's really why all these issues have come up and prompted this conversation of whether not the police have been paying too much attention to the possibility of being accused of racism or being racist in how they're going about their business. And at that, at this point, we don't know what was going through those police officers, mind, and that that will be investigated. But the issue is absolutely up there in. In. In headlights. And there's a long history, isn't there, of trying to deal with all these issues for the police? Because you go back in time, the evidence suggests very strongly there was a lot of dreadful behaviour as revealed by the MacPherson Report back in the late 90s.

[Danny Shaw]

Yeah, the MacPherson Report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence, which took place in 1993, was absolutely essential. The recommendations were accepted, I think, in their entirety. And they made huge changes to the way that murders were investigated, the way that victims and witnesses were treated and then also around race and discrimination. And it's worth remembering that that Stephen's murder was never properly investigated by the police. For about 20 years there was. The inquiry was infected by racism, by allegations of corruption, by incompetence on a grand scale. And we are, I think, you know, a world away from that at the moment, thankfully. And also what that murder shone a light on was the way that black people had been treated and dealt with by police as victims and suspects and as witnesses. So the McPherson report, you know, was an attempt to correct some of that, and rightly so. We then had the murder of George Floyd in America in 2020, when he was murdered by a white police officer, a black man murdered by a white police officer who compressed his neck for almost nine minutes. And it was filmed and it was shocking. And that, you know, created an outpouring of anger and upset in this country as well about the continuing poor treatment of black people at the hands of law enforcement. And that led to the Police Race Action Plan, which is, I think, where we now are, because that's the controversial bit. I think that people are saying that it's gone too far.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And that directly came out of what happened to George Floyd in the U.S. yes. And do you think it was right that that came out of what happened to George Floyd in the US because it's an interesting thing. I mean, that was a worldwide storm. You know, we talked about it on newscast, People talked about it everywhere. There was an absolutely huge response to that. People will remember the images of all sorts of public figures taking the knee, British politicians taking the knee, sports stars

[Danny Shaw]

taking the knee, statues being brought down of huge demons in the slave trade. Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And one of the accusations actually made by reform is that protests around that were policed more leniently than this later Southport riot pro riots, for example. But it's really interesting that the change to policy here in this country came out of those as a direct response to what happened to George Floyd. Do you think that was right?

[Danny Shaw]

Well, I do think it was right that there had to be a revision of policy, because I think things had stalled in terms of the treatment of ethnic minorities and black people in policing and the justice system more broadly. And there needed to be some sort of rocket boosters put onto that. But my concern about what's developed since then is you have this gobbledygook of policy and procedures and guidelines and. Can I just quote from do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I mean, it's a complete word salad.

[Danny Shaw]

So maybe one of them.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, go for it.

[Danny Shaw]

So this is the anti racism commitment that came out of the Police Race Action Plan that was published last year by The National Police Chiefs Council, it says, and I quote, commitment to racial equity means producing equality of policing outcomes for people from different ethnic groups by responding to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances and experiences. With understanding these will be racialized and with the aim of reducing harm. It does not mean treating everyone the same or being colorblind brackets. Racial equality, end quote. Now, I can't understand what that means or what it's trying to get at. I can't begin to think how a young police constable, and most of them are in their 20s or 30s at the moment, trying to apply that commitment on the streets in a fast moving situation, how they meant to navigate that with that in their heads as long, plus everything else that's going on and all the other guidance. I mean, it's dreadful. I think what it's trying to say and what it should be getting at is we're all different. We all, you know, bring to a situation, different life experiences. Some of it is born of racism and some of it may be born of vulnerability. We may have mental health problems. We, you know, we've all got different experiences and we respond and react in different ways and we deal with different situations differently. So use your common sense. That's really, I think, what it's trying to say, or should be saying, but it's dressed up in this language and I can understand now why police officers A, are confused and B, they might overcorrect and, and you know, and deal with allegations of racism or race hate in a way that's perhaps, you know, over the top.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's interesting, our colleague Sima Catecho spends a lot of time covering these issues. She's been talking to police officers, many of them privately in the last few days because people don't necessarily want to talk publicly about these difficult issues. And I just want to read one, one of them's quote to Seema and she's written a really interesting piece on the website. She said, we've had several reports about this is a police officer talking to her, she's quoting. We have several reports about how racist we are in the last few years when it comes to black people and Asian people. So we're very cautious when handling cases involving different races. And so what happened in Southampton is easy to see why maybe we are too cautious.

[Danny Shaw]

Now, I think for some police officers that's probably very true. I think for others they will respond more differently perhaps, and they've got more confidence. But I know back in 2020 I did a Radio 4 documentary looking at Racism in the police. And one of the things that's very striking is, and I think it's probably still the case that black officers, black members of police staff and ethnic minorities broadly are over represented in the police misconduct system compared to their white counterparts. And one of the reasons that's put forward for that, and there have been all sorts of reports to try and understand why, is because when a black or ethnic minority officer is accused of, you know, perhaps some minor dismantle, misdemeanor or some minor misconduct, rather than deal with it informally, their managers and superiors are so scared of, you know, of the repercussions of that that they say, right, well I'll play everything by the book so they, they escalate it into a misconduct process rather than, you know, come in and have a chat. This was not the way to behave, this was not the way to respond to that situation, you know, etc. And, and let's deal with it. So everything becomes a formal process. And that's one of the reasons. And that shows me that there is still certainly was then an anxiety about, about dealing with race issues, a fear of being accused of racism and generally a lack of confidence when dealing with black officers who are accused of misconduct.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And one of the interesting things, Danny, about this week is that reform has expanded the argument they're making not just to be about two tier policing, as they call it. And it's worth noting the Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Philp, who used to be the Police Minister, also says that two tier policing is real, but reform has expanded it, using the Novak case to make a broader argument that actually suggests that white people in general are now losing out to ethnic minorities. And this is exactly what Nigel Farage has said about this. He said, I quote, we're living in a two tier culture in this country with the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities. And that's a very dramatic claim to make. But it's interesting, Danny, this has become so hot politically and reform are using this to tap into what they know is a sentiment among some of their base which you hear now and you hear it back from focus groups, or if you hear it, if you're out and about talking to some voters in a belief that white communities have been somehow ignored because of political correctness, or if you look at the education statistics around white boys in school particular particularly, they're trying to tie it into this bigger conversation. But from what you're saying, when it comes to policing, much of this may be the law of Unintended consequences, Efforts to correct a historic wrong have ended up with pockets of things ending up which nobody would have wanted in the first place.

[Danny Shaw]

Yeah, I think it's possible. And, and that's why I think there needs to be a serious look by the Inspectorate of Constabulary, the policing watchdog, into these various training programs that have been criticized by some. The anti racism training programs. Are they actually having the right impact, the right effect? Is it just a box ticking exercise? Is it a waste of time? Is it leading officers to over, you know, over. Correct. I think why not? Let's have that look, you know, and it may be that broadly it's in the right place, but it needs some tweaking or it may be actually it's, you know, it's not in the right place. But, you know, I think we should have the confidence to be able to do that. I don't think that means necessarily that what happened to Henry Novak is a direct result of that, but clearly there is concern around these issues and so why not? Let's, let's examine it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So there are going to be various different reviews. Already we know that the police chiefs are reviewing that guidance. The government has said some of the language is wrong. There will of course be this review into what happened to Henry Novak. The police watchdog is looking at exactly what went wrong there. We know the Conservatives are then calling for a separate, independent, rapid review, to use the terminology. That would be something a bit, with a bit more meat.

[Danny Shaw]

I mean, my view is that, you know, the Independent Office for Police Conduct is the right body at the moment to look at the officer's actions and whether what they did was in accordance with their training and requirements and expectations and looking at all the circumstances and everything that they knew about that situation. There's also going to be an inquest into the death of Henry, which will be a broader inquest, which will also encompass some of those issues. I don't at the moment believe there's a need for another inquiry. I think those two things are enough. And, you know, as a result of the IOPC investigation, it may be that there are misconduct proceedings, it may even be that there's criminal proceedings. At the moment the officers involved are being treated as witnesses, so they're not under formal investigation. But that can change. I'm not saying it will, but it can. So I think that, I think that's enough. I don't think we need another formal inquiry.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And just lastly, the family, and I've been talking to representatives of the family who have been Very clear they did not want this to blow up into an angry political rare. And that is what has happened. But what they do want is a specific change in the law around Sikh ceremonial knives. So as things stand, and you'll be more familiar with this than I am, but as things stand, I'm told Section 47 of the 2019 piece of legislation exempts ceremonial knives from being classed as offensive weapons. The family want that to be changed so that large ceremonial knives would be covered by that legislation. Can you see that happening? I mean, should we actually in this conversation be talking about the prevalence of knife crime rather than the racial elements that have been raised by politicians?

[Danny Shaw]

Yeah. Henry Novak was murdered by a man who was carrying a knife and it, you know, he was a victim of knife crime. And I do think that that's actually what we should be discussing. And I, I do think that there needs to be a review of that, of that legislation. And, and it does seem to me that it's wrong that people should be allowed to carry those weapons. You know, I understand there are religious sensitivities, I get that, but that, that doesn't mean that we have to bow to every single tenet of religion, in my view, and particularly when it comes to those longer blades. And he was, Vikram Diggle was carrying, I think, an 8 inch blade, which was the longer knife. So I absolutely would support that. And for the government to redouble its efforts on tackling knife crime, I think it's made some good progress and it's doing some good work on that already.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's interesting, there was a very, what I thought was a very powerful letter from the, the CKMPS in Parliament. All of the CKMPs in parliament published this joint letter yesterday saying this is not about religion, this is basically about a young man who has been murdered. And they indicated a willingness to, you know, there is a debate about whether or not people could be allowed to carry the much smaller ceremonial knives. Yes, the need for a large. There's a debate even about whether or not the size of knife like that could be regarded as.

[Danny Shaw]

Well, you could kill someone with a small knife as well. I mean, obviously this is a, this is very rare. Okay. I don't know if there have been other cases in which a sick person has used their, their, then their kirpan to stab someone or kill someone. It's very rare, but nevertheless, I think I think it should be reviewed.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Danny, thank you very much indeed for coming in. It's been really good to talk about these sensitive issues in a really calm way and with the benefit of your many years of experience. Thank you.

[Danny Shaw]

Thanks, Laura.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And tomorrow morning on BBC One, we'll continue to discuss this important and fraught issue with the Deputy Prime Minister, David Lammy, who's also the Justice Secretary. So embedded in these issues, Anzia Yousef, the Reform spokesperson on Home affairs, will join us in the studio too. That's bound to be a lively and important debate. So I look forward to seeing you on the box then and tomorrow afternoon on Sunday's newscast. Goodbye.

[Danny Shaw]

Newscast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Danny Shaw]

You've come to the end of newscast. Some people, and you know who I mean, might say you ooze stamina. Can I encourage you to subscribe on BBC Sounds and you can get in touch with us anytime. Email [e-mail], you can WhatsApp us on 0301-239-480.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

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