← Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
9 Big Takeaways For Creators From Craft + Commerce 2025
00:46:40
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- [00:00]
Dylan
We are one week removed from Craft.
- [00:02]
Chanel
And commerce in Boise. And it sounds like you would do it again.
- [00:06]
Dylan
Yes. Yeah.
- [00:07]
Chanel
Okay.
- [00:08]
Dylan
If they were interesting on the Internet, they were actually more interesting in person.
- [00:13]
Chanel
That is the game. Make insanely valuable content, show up and make relationships and, like, you have a good business.
- [00:19]
Dylan
The word authentic got thrown around like. Like nobody's business. It was everywhere.
- [00:23]
Chanel
Everyone has these AI tools now, and it's like you can crank out, like, 30 times the amount of content, but at the end of the day, like, should you.
- [00:31]
Dylan
I would have pretty massive FOMO if I wasn't able to make it out next time.
- [00:39]
Chanel
All right, so we are back in our little home studios. I'm in the basement. Dylan's in his plant sanctuary. And we wanted to. We wanted to chat about crafting commerce in Boise and just kind of talk through what we learned, the takeaways we had, and just some good reminders for. Yeah, next steps and what we're looking to do. So excited to do this.
- [01:02]
Dylan
We're for sure. We are one week removed from, I guess, the kind of the first keynote morning. Right. Last Thursday, from when we're recording this. Once this is released, we'll be about two weeks out. But I'm trying to. I've. I've been assembling my thoughts a little bit, and there was just, like, so much goodness. And it was also just like, all of this information just like, packed into, like, two, basically two days. Um, and getting all of that onto paper or out of my mind onto paper. Well, paper screens. And now in front of you is going to be interesting. So I think there were a lot of great takeaways, and I'm excited to kind of talk with you about things that you found the most interesting and the things that our listeners and people who are writing newsletters could get the most from.
- [01:43]
Chanel
Yeah, I'm excited about this one. Um, and so for context, I went to Jay's LA offline event, he called it, with his lab. So I was there from Sunday to Saturday. So it was like the longest week ever. But such a good week. I think there were a lot of upset spouses amongst, like, all of our group because everyone was like, yeah, my spouse is with the kids for a whole week. And, you know, it's just funny, but it was good stuff. It was, like, really quality creator time, and I love that. So, yeah, I'm excited to be back, but do miss it.
- [02:17]
Dylan
Yeah, Boise is a gem. Like, it's like this little gem in the middle of, like, I, Idaho and like, a desert Basically. And you're flying over and it's like desert, desert, desert. And all of a sudden it's like this lush, green like little sprawling city and it's really cool. So first off, like location wise, pretty amazing for people who don't know they choose Boise because Nathan Barry is basically from Boise, I believe, and Kit kind of was founded there and has grown there and there's a few people who still live there who are part of the team. So despite being a remote company, they. That's where they always have. That's where they always have the conference.
- [02:51]
Chanel
Yes. And it's, it's so frustrating cuz I would say 90% of the visitors have to take at least two flights. Some people took like four flights, which is just insane. I don't know that I would do it. There are not many direct flights to Boise unless you're from like Dallas, San Francisco or la. Yeah. Somewhere on like the west. Um, so it's definitely a trip to get there, which I think weeds out a lot of people, which might be good. Talking about friction. Friction to get to the conference is potentially something that has kept the attendee quality high for sure.
- [03:26]
Dylan
And the opportunity to get there a little bit easier because some people are just like, man, it's not worth the trip. The track for you and I, it was I think two flights each. Right. Like we each had to have a layover. I was nice and quick. Vancouver to Seattle, Seattle to Boise. You were, I think it did Dallas and then Dallas into Philly to Dallas and Dallas, Boise.
- [03:45]
Chanel
Yep.
- [03:45]
Dylan
So it was great. Once we got there, I was again blown away by the town. But let's not talk too much about the town. Let's get into like right into the details of the conference. So what do you think the main theme of the conference was this year?
- [03:57]
Chanel
There are a couple. I think the main theme, the one that I can't get out of my head in this very moment is like in real life, connection is just so freaking powerful. Um, like I'm, I'm specifically thinking about like we went on a hike with Chad Carson, Brian Feroldi and Becky Pearson Davidson and it was just like us five and it was such like, such a good hike. It was like a two and a half hour. Like just we're talking with other people who understand the weird things that happen in our lives. Yeah. And I was just like, this is so cool. And like Brian even messaged me afterwards and he was like, I love that. And I was like, can I just get your number so we can Just like talk while we're walking dogs at some point. Because I think there's just like, how can we take that and turn it into like a virtual thing that we could do more often? Because that hike was just like, so fun. Like, I don't know how else to explain it aside from fun.
- [04:46]
Dylan
Yeah, it really was. There's like, I think that's. That's my takeaway too, is like the information we got at the conference was really good, really, and pretty valuable. But the in person connection and the experiences like the hike and the dinners that we attended, whether casual or organized, those are where, like, the real value was that making those connections, those friendships, that was, that was just so huge. So I'm fully aligned with the in person connection thing. The messaging from the. The actual conference itself is they talk about connecting and then they're talking more about connecting, like human to human. So that was a big theme. Um, the word authentic got thrown around like, like nobody's business. It was everywhere. It was kind of the buzzword of the. The conference is like being authentic in a world that's going more and more towards AI.
- [05:30]
Chanel
Yeah, totally. And this was your first creator conference, right?
- [05:34]
Dylan
First, yeah. First conference outside of like the marketing, corporate marketing world. And I didn't go to too many even with that. So, yeah, this is my first like, conference in, in many, many times, many years. First creator conference for sure.
- [05:46]
Chanel
And it sounds like you would do it again.
- [05:49]
Dylan
Yes. Yeah.
- [05:50]
Chanel
Okay.
- [05:51]
Dylan
I would have. I would have pretty massive FOMO if I wasn't able to make it out next time.
- [05:56]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [05:57]
Dylan
And. And it's not even just the fomo, just like, it was just so valuable in the experience and the connecting meeting you from for the first time in person and for people who have not met Chanel in real life, her hair is actually a lot darker than it shows up on videos, which.
- [06:14]
Chanel
Above my head. It's so funny.
- [06:15]
Dylan
It totally is. It brings out like that chestnut sort of color in your. In your hair, which is. Which is hilarious, which I did not realize. So it was great to actually meet people like, you know, people I've worked with for like a year plus or known for a year plus at least in person. And meet like my creator heroes. I posted on LinkedIn about, like some of the heroes, quote unquote, I met, like Nathan Barry and Tom Frank and Jay Clouse and Justin Moore. Obviously you like just these people who have been in my ethos, my online ethos for a long time that I got to actually like, shake hands with and have a Have a. Just, like, a normal conversation with. Which was, like, surreal and awesome.
- [06:49]
Chanel
Yeah, it's always so much fun to, like, just get to hang out with people. You only ever do this with, like, Zoom or virtual calls. And I'm like, oh, this is so cool. And it's fun to, like, see how people are generally the same, like, online and offline. It's just, like, awesome. I'm like, oh, you just, like, fall right into it. Like, when we met, I was like, this might be weird, but then we were just, like, talking like we are now. It was. It was great.
- [07:13]
Dylan
Yeah. It felt like just like catching up with an old friend, which was. Which was. I think that's a pretty big compliment to how our dynamic of how. How we've been working together. And then people, like. Even Brian Ferrali, who you mentioned was on the hike. My only interaction with him previously was, I think I was working at Sparkly Event, and I was doing customer support, and he was struggling with something in that end. And so, you know, obviously frustrated as a customer who was having a tech problem. And so my impression of Brian was like, you know, somebody who was maybe a frustrated person just from that perspective. Right. And meeting him in person was completely the opposite. He was so down to earth. He was, like, charismatic, but, like, not a fake way. He was just, like, fun, kind, like, chatty. It was. It was awesome. So it was. It completely, you know, flipped my impression of him in a positive way. Not that I thought badly of him otherwise, but it was just a whole other angle that I really appreciated. And I think I got that vibe with just about everybody. If they were interesting in. On the Internet, they were actually more interesting in person.
- [08:10]
Chanel
Yeah. I think there's some things that get filtered out on the Internet that don't get filtered out in real life, which.
- [08:15]
Dylan
Is just a little bit.
- [08:17]
Chanel
Yeah, just a little bit. Which is what makes everybody human. Right. It's just like we. I feel like. So sometimes we cut out or edit out the parts that are just, you know, we're like, oh, that's a little weird. But it's like, no, that's what makes you you. And so it's. It's a good reminder to like, not edit out as much stuff.
- [08:35]
Dylan
Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Okay, so let's get into some other. Some of our main takeaways. So do you want to start or shall I?
- [08:42]
Chanel
Yeah, I mean, I guess on the topic of AI, I would say, like you said, that was thrown around all the time. Authentic was thrown around. And then also, like, this sense of impending burnout. Like, everyone has these AI tools now, and it's like you can crank out like 30 times the amount of content, but at the end of the day, like, should you, like, is that what you want? And so it's just like a good reminder of, like, just because these tools can make your output faster and more like, and increase the output, it's like, is that really the next step you want to take? And so it was a good, like, I don't know, reminder of just, like, what, what can go wrong if you take these tools and use them to their fullest extent all of the time.
- [09:23]
Dylan
I think there's a, A good balance that we need to take. And some people will take advantage of tools like AI tools like ChatGPT and, you know, Sora, creating videos and you name it, Even Delphi, who is a sponsor of the conference. And they'll be able to, like, you know, do the work of, you know, a hundred people, you know, and that's, that's okay if that's serving their business and serving their purpose. But I think there's, there's elements of the business that personally I would not want to do that with. And also, like, feeling like you always have to be cranking out new content and tons of content everywhere all the time. I just feel burnt out just thinking about it that way. So I think having that balance is, Is really important.
- [10:02]
Chanel
Yeah. And I kept hearing people being like, well, you know, once you have a higher quality bar, I'm like, insanely valuable content. Like, it just comes back every time. I'm like, yes, this is. I was so happy hearing people say that. Cause I'm like, that is the game. Like, make insanely valuable content. Show up and make relationships. And like, you have a good business that hypothetically, if you do the right things, could survive.
- [10:24]
Dylan
So I think insanely valuable content. Content should not be conflated with insanely frequent content either. And that's what, like, AI can help us with, is making insanely frequent content. That isn't always a good thing. Right. I think even, like, Jay has talked Jay close. He's talked about leaning into, like, I'm going to publish something when I'm, like, really inspired and feeling it. And I feel like I have something to say as opposed to trying to just, like, play, keep up with the algorithm. I think that it's really important to not conflate the insanely valuable content. That's actually helpful. Interesting. That's gonna help. That's gonna help people achieve the goals that they're you know, following you to achieve as opposed to just like pumping stuff out every day, all the time just to serve the algorithm.
- [11:04]
Chanel
And then there's other realms of this where, like, you know, Nathan Barry was talking about how he was talking to Stephen Bartlett's Head of content, or I forget, her role, but that he was like, oh, can you, like, look through my LinkedIn content? And he was like. She was like, yeah, sure. And he's like, yeah, I just posted this one. And she looked at his profile and she was like, this was posted five days ago. Like, that's not. Just like, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, yeah. Like, these top names who have these huge content teams, like, can put out daily content and do it well, but most of us probably can't.
- [11:35]
Dylan
No. At least not yet. And then it also begs the question is, do you want that? Do you want to be doing that? And for some people, if. If your main business is eyeballs and attention, you know, the bigger the better, the more the better. Stephen Bartlett's running a. Well, I guess almost a basically YouTube channel now, but it started as like a podcast and diary of a CEO for anybody who's not familiar, and it's pretty big. And they have a lot of sponsors, and so they need to get as many ears and eyes on their product as possible so they can keep selling those impressions and paying his staff and so on. So I get where they're coming from in that regard. But we're not all serving just the eyeballs and the. And the earlobes. We are also just serving. Sometimes we're just serving people. And one sale for our coaching program or mastermind or community. That's all we need. And it doesn't have to be at the cost of publishing content all day, every day.
- [12:26]
Chanel
Totally. Okay, I think I rambled on about this enough. So what was your next takeaway?
- [12:31]
Dylan
Well, I kind of like, I just think about this in order of sort of the keynotes we saw. So the very first keynote is very apt for what he talked about was Clay He. Bear Hebert. If you're.
- [12:41]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [12:41]
Dylan
If you want to butcher his last name. Clay Hebert. He talked about introductions, which was very convenient being the very first keynote we heard. And so I can't remember exactly what that bias is, but that's one that stuck with me because it was the very first. Is that the peak end rule? I can't remember.
- [12:56]
Chanel
Yeah, either way, the first and the last thing are the most.
- [12:59]
Dylan
Yeah, the most memorable. So he talked about introductions and in that sense, he's like, most people absolutely suck at introducing themselves, especially when they're asked, what do you do? So what do you do? What do you do? And he played a bunch of clips of people asking, what do you do? And, and I think the, the thing that I took away from that was when we suck at introductions, when introducing ourselves and explaining what we do, we were verbose, we don't really explain it well, and so, so on and so forth. But also on our landing pages, in our bios, online, when we are sending a DM or people DM us, we don't really have, we don't have that honed. And some people do, don't get me wrong, some people are really good at it. But I think simplifying our introduction, whether it's in person and somebody asking what do you do? Or somebody coming to our landing pages or our websites, there's a lot of room for improvement there. And so I thought how he talked about transforming your introduction into a very simple, like, I help X with Y, for example, is one of his frameworks was like, really? Like, yes, I like that. You can put that on a landing page. You can elaborate on it a bit. But like, just making it super plain and clear was one of my big takeaways for at least for his keynote.
- [14:07]
Chanel
Yeah, and I think more, more so than that because when somebody says like, oh, I help X with Y, I'm like, yeah, I've heard that for decades at this point. But he also made it, he's like, you don't your elevator pitch to be a story ender, like, so that people fully understand it. And then they're like, okay, cool, I don't want to talk to you anymore. So he gave examples and I was really hoping my name came up on that screen because he was going through some of the speakers and workshop folks on there and it did come up and I was super pumped. And he said, mine can be I help creators grow in reverse. And like, that makes no sense to anyone who doesn't know my content, but it opens this door for a story for them to be like, oh, tell me more. And so I thought that was like a really interesting segue into like how to get people excited about what you do.
- [14:52]
Dylan
Yeah, I, I agree. I think the leaving that element of like, curiosity is, is pretty, is pretty important. He, he also referenced mine, which I wasn't expecting about roasting newsletters. So I don't think he really knows what I do, which is fair. I didn't have a great bio, but he said, you know, I. Most people roast marshmallows. I roast newsletters kind of thing. And I'd be like, oh, that's kind of clever. Yeah. And then that would lead someone to think, like, what does that actually mean? So, yeah, so I thought that was fun, and that was really interesting. And he had a bunch of different frameworks, and I really wish I had written them down. But those. Those were kind of the. That was kind of the. The meat of what he was talking about. I think people, again, they suck at intros. And first impressions are pretty important. Whether you're meeting somebody in person or they're coming to your landing page or sales page or your welcome email or whatever it is, there's an opportunity to synthesize what you do for who and how you do it.
- [15:43]
Chanel
Totally. And I think me writing, I help creators grow in reverse on a landing page would never convert anyone. I think they'd all be like, yeah, I'm not signing up for this. But in a conversation, like, face to face, it makes total sense to, like, have something with a little mystery around it. But on a landing page. Yeah, totally. You want to make it more concrete and understandable.
- [16:02]
Dylan
Yeah, exactly. Okay. What was another takeaway from you?
- [16:05]
Chanel
I don't know. Just, like, another variation of, like, being in person. So at Jay's offline event, he put us into, like, these small, random groups. Like, we didn't get to pick where we sat. He just sat us with people he thought would be good folks. So it was, like, six people. I think it was six. And everyone went around and said, like, talk through, like, a major issue you're thinking through in your business. And, like, everyone had 18 minutes, and you just talked about your thing, and people would give you feedback or ask more questions. And I just. I love things like that. And I didn't realize how much I love it. Like, the time aspect of it, it was just so fun to, like, everyone gets a certain amount of time. And honestly, hearing from other people helped me more than, like, them helping me with my problem. It was just. It's so good. Like, I need to put myself in situations like that more.
- [16:52]
Dylan
Like, hearing from how other people were solving other people's problems in their business.
- [16:57]
Chanel
Yeah. Or, like, hearing the other problems that each of us were going through. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I kind of have that issue too. And, like, just hearing one little reframe of it, I'm like, oh, maybe it's either not as big of an issue or there's this simple fix that I could like, implement tomorrow. So I just really love, like, those small group Mastermind type things, and those are not people that I normally sit around and talk to. So it was cool to have, like, I don't know, it's almost like a random element to it. And like, everybody immediately just throws away, like, baggage. Like, nobody can be embarrassed. Just talk about your thing. We're all on the same level kind of thing. So I really, really enjoyed that.
- [17:31]
Dylan
That's cool. We did that a little bit too, in the Mastermind, I guess the pre conference Mastermind. That kit kind of sets up. So is it select group of people? Thanks to you. I was invited just because we were doing the workshop. That was the only reason we got a seat at the table there. There were some pretty heavy hitters in there, like Pat Flynn, and to name, you know, just an example of somebody who's been uber successful. Who is there. So we talked about, again, we're sitting around tables of about six people or so, and everybody got like 15 minutes to, like, share their. No posturing, you know, just totally, like, just share a struggle they're dealing with. And then everybody just went around and said they didn't give them advice, but they're, like, hearing my experience, how I handled a similar issue, and I thought that was, like, again, very powerful. And it really, like, brought down everybody's guard a little bit because people were just, like, willing to be vulnerable and listen, I know.
- [18:23]
Chanel
I think that that second one was like, oh, yeah, like, this is just solidifying my brain. Like, I need to do this more because, yeah, I thankfully did get to sit with Pat Flynn and I was like, this is insane, like, for people who don't know, like, I got into this world in 2013 because of Pat Flynn's podcast. Like, I found his podcast and I was like. Like, I did not know people made money with websites and I found his podcast and then here I am, what, 12 years later. So it's just insane to, like, come sitting at a table with him, right?
- [18:51]
Dylan
Having him give you advice on your. On your business.
- [18:55]
Chanel
It was wild. So, yeah, that was incredible. Jay's and the Kit pre Mastermind thing was incredible. Highly recommend if you get a chance to do either of those. But, yeah, it's something. I'm thinking I would love to incorporate something like this inside of Growth in Reverse Pro event.
- [19:10]
Dylan
Just going to say, ye, yeah, if you didn't, I was gonna mention that because it's just.
- [19:14]
Chanel
It was such. I think if I did nothing else at the conference, I would have been happy with Just those two interactions, like, wow. Yeah, I think it was. It would have been worth the flights and, like, the hotel and everything to, like. I don't know, it's just. It's a different level of learning and connection. So I do want to try and incorporate that somehow.
- [19:34]
Dylan
And that's something you can't. AI can't really replace. At least not yet, I don't think. Yeah, you can do the clones and you can do this and that, but I think just that same person. No, it is not the same. Is not. Who wants to talk to a robot, like, to solve, like, a tech issue. Sure. Or a customer support issue. Even then it's kind of annoying. But, like, yeah, in person, when you want that feedback and, you know, just like, putting your heart on your sleeve and being like, this is what I'm struggling with. I think that's so powerful. And that's where the value of these conferences come in as well. And the value of private communities can be huge when you can get a group of people together who are all kind of sort of in the same boat and are able to just, like, help each other. Right. Just support. I fully agree with you on that. That's. That's massive.
- [20:16]
Chanel
Yeah, it was huge. So I just keep coming back to that in my brain. So if you want to go to another one, let's do it.
- [20:22]
Dylan
Okay, Sweet. I want to go to another one.
- [20:25]
Chanel
Okay.
- [20:25]
Dylan
And I want. And I want.
- [20:26]
Chanel
He's like, stop talking about these masterminds, Chanel.
- [20:28]
Dylan
Yeah, well, I'm in. Like, I'm game. I've been sold. So the other thing, one other takeaway that I had, and it kind of. It was based on one of the keynotes from the Ultra speaking guys. The. The one half of Ultra speaking named Tristan demontebello, who I unfortunately didn't really meet until, like, the last and closing party. I kind of shook his hand and said how inspiring his speech was, but I really wish I would have been able to chat with him, but more because he seemed like a really interesting guy.
- [20:54]
Chanel
Those two are just like incredible humans.
- [20:57]
Dylan
I know. And the first night.
- [20:59]
Chanel
Michael. Michael Gendler is the other one. Yeah.
- [21:01]
Dylan
Yes, Michael. So I had no idea who these guys were. However, I had recently just signed up for Ultra Speaking, and I do not know how it came into my ether, but all of a sudden I was, like, getting emails and then I found out, oh, they are speaking at the conference. That actually might have been it. I might have looked up the speaking list and saw Tristan Renz Alger speaking. I was like, oh, maybe I'll check that out. Either way. We ended up at a speakeasy on Wednesday night before the conference started with like this kind of random group of people. You knew that more than I did. But it was just a really dark, lit speakeasy, like traditional, like, like underground kind of a place. You had to like, I think you had to ring a number and then tell.
- [21:40]
Chanel
There was no, like, obvious door to get in?
- [21:42]
Dylan
No, no. We had to like, go ask around how. How we could like get to this place. And so anyway, anyway, we get in there and Michael's one of the people who was kind enough. Like, I didn't really know anyway. I was just kind of sitting there in the corner, like with my drink, like when like this. And Michael, you know, he struck up a conversation with me and introduced himself. And he was really kind and really, like, humble. And I wouldn't have known that he was like the co founder of this, you know, really bit successful and important business that he's running with Tristan. And just trying to hear him over the crowd of people was hard. But we were like chatting a lot about. About what he does and he's. It was just like super down to earth and really nice and a humble guy. So if I wasn't already bought into the program, just meeting one of the people, especially who's behind it, sold me on it. But what I wanted to say was he. Tristan talks a lot about speaking and public speaking, mastering kind of the art of it. But I think what is reflected back is like calming that internal storm because people can't see inside you and inside your head and how you're feeling. But you can present how you're feeling by things you do and say. And so their whole thing is about kind of like not leaking the what you're feeling inside outward. Right. For me, somebody who's like terrified of public speaking, I'm just like, I look up to you that you. You don't love doing it either, but you've done it a number of times. And I'm just like, I aspire to do that. I want to do this someday. It's like, it's like going skydiving. Something that would like, absolutely terrify me that I just like, feel like I have to do before I die. So. I really appreciated Tristan's talk because it was both inspiring and it was like, I guess it was comforting to know that, like, people who do this all the time still are like, scared to death to do it, but they've found these ways to kind of like, hack the fear and the nerves. And I guess pulling this all full circle to like, newsletters is something else. When we interviewed adhd, Jesse was talking about was when he was trying to write like an expert and like, he knew everything. He kind of lost his voice a little bit and potentially kind of started losing interest from readers. But when he just incorporated more of his personality and more of kind of just his, I don't know, like, like learners kind of perspective, just like, here's what my experiences, my experience is and like my authentic, using that word again, human self, it just felt more natural and came with more ease. And so I feel like a merger of like, what Tristan taught us, what Jesse mentioned. Just like, you know, the confidence in your communication is important, but if you're like pretending to be an expert when you're not, then that's gonna come through. And so it's just like, how can you write with confidence? Maybe you are an expert in writing with, you know, that expert level confidence or expert knowledge, I should say works for you and you have confidence in that. But maybe you're somebody like me who feels like imposter syndrome when I'm talking about all these things. And so it's more. I might have to, to have the confidence, I might have to approach it from more of an angle of somebody who's learning. Like, learn with me or why don't you? I tried this experiment. Here's what I found. I. I never knew this before. So approaching your content, whether it's speaking, writing, whatever it might be, from the place that gives you the most confidence, I think is, is kind of one of the big takeaways I had.
- [24:38]
Chanel
Yeah, definitely. And I think you kind of alluded to this, but I just want to say it directly. Like, if you are creating content that you aren't confident about, like, the imposter syndrome is going to be like, raging inside of you. Like, if I were to have would have started growth in reverse and been like, I know that this guy grew a newsletter and he did it this way and like, just talked about, like, how I know the best way to do things when I have zero knowledge of how to grow a newsletter, like, it would have never gotten to a place where it is now, and I would have felt so cringy doing it. So I think that really shines through. When you're creating content, you want to make sure you're, like, being true to yourself and, like, where you are. And it's okay if you aren't an expert. Most people are not. So just Lean into that as, like, your thing.
- [25:24]
Dylan
I think for a lot of people, too, you're more approachable when you come off as somebody who is kind of learning or on the journey with them. That's not to be said that there aren't. We don't need to hear from experts. Like, there's people who need to teach us things and. And that we can learn from and their. Their insights and their inputs. Valuable. Don't think you need to force yourself to try to be one. And I think I've definitely gone down that path a number of times. And the term like newsletter expert, like, kind of makes me cringe because I'm like, I'm not a newsletter expert.
- [25:50]
Chanel
Please don't call me that.
- [25:51]
Dylan
Yeah, like, it. That. That's where the imposter. Imposter syndrome shines through or gets really strong, is when people attach those things to your name because you feel like, oh, that now I have to know it more than most people and I have to teach you things you didn't already know. And so it just adds that pressure and that's where the leaking starts to take place.
- [26:09]
Chanel
Yes, definitely.
- [26:10]
Dylan
Yeah. Cool.
- [26:12]
Chanel
All right. So I think I just want to transition a little bit because it's kind of similar but in a different light. Sam Vanderween is amazing. I didn't. So I had heard about Sam probably six or eight months ago from Matt Jira, and I didn't listen. I was like, I'm not gonna. I don't have time to listen to this right now. And then she was on Nathan Barry's podcast, and I was like, oh, this is actually a really cool person. And I was like, wait a second. She lived in Philadelphia, which I also did. She went to this conference or this, like, event called the Good Fest. And I was like, oh, I had tickets. I actually didn't go to that in 2017, but maybe I would have met her then. So it was just super like, I feel like we were supposed to meet at some point. And she's just so down to earth and cool. And I love her take on business. And one of the things that really stuck stood out for me, aside from talking about authenticity, like, she's amazing, but her content, she approaches it from just, like, day to day stuff. And she'll take stories from her, from her life and things she's experiencing and turn them into, like, business lessons. And so she's like, she sells legal templates, she's a lawyer, but she'll take, like, everyday experiences and transition those into stories that can teach people. And then she's like, by the way, if you also want to do this, here's a legal template that'll help you. And it comes off just so natural. And like, I love that approach to content. And I'm someone who is so hesitant to do like short form video or anything like that because I'm like, I don't know what I would post, like the horses out in the backyard, like my dog, like, what do I post here? But hearing the way she does it, I was like, oh, this is actually kind of approachable. So I really like that.
- [27:47]
Dylan
I did too. And yeah, meeting her, I can attest to that. She was just like super nice down to earth. You wouldn't know how successful she was just by chatting with her. Humble again and just, and really nice. So I agree. I also think there's a important differentiation to make when it's like yesterday my son was born. Here's what it taught me about B2B sales. Like you, you know what I mean? Like, there's those, there's those things that are just like memes now, right?
- [28:11]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [28:12]
Dylan
And you don't want to do that necessarily. And I think you can, you can certainly wrap in business learnings and lessons in your everyday life. Like for sure. I think it's just managing, you know, how to do that and having I guess, the awareness to know when it's coming off sort of that B2B sales meme way. So I, I, I find that I struggle with that a little bit because in my head sometimes I see those posts and I'm just kind of like, like, you're that guy. You are the B2B sales guy, right? Like, who's posting about that? And so now I'm like, I'm just a little bit more protective of it because I'm, I'm self conscious about that totally.
- [28:45]
Chanel
But I think the thing that those B2B sales guys miss is like the full story. Like they, she pulls in like, hey, I've been going to this farmer's market for three months and you know, we keep asking this guy when he's going to start his bakery and he kept saying he wasn't going to do it. Or maybe it was like three years. Right. So it's the same guy selling sourdough bread.
- [29:04]
Dylan
Is this a legit story she shared?
- [29:05]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Dylan
Okay.
- [29:08]
Chanel
And so obviously I'm going to butcher it. I'm not, I wasn't there, so I can't tell the full story. But she said, like, I've been going to the same thing for three years, we talked to this guy. She gave him a name. I'll just call him Herman or something. She's like, what, Herman? When are you going to start your. Your bakery? Like, you're in store bakery. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, I just need to save a little money and blah, blah, blah. And then she, like, talked to him about, like, hey, like, you can just set up an LLC for 500 bucks or whatever and, like, take a step in the right direction. And so she's, like, pulling it in from, like, her personal experience, and she's, like, making it more. You're invested in Herman now because all of the customers want to see him, like, have a real bakery, not just, like, during the summer months when there's, like, a farmer's market. And so it was just, like, super interesting of the way she's able to connect, like, real life scenarios with, like, what she does and, like, bringing them together. I don't know. I got more invested than, like, hey, I had a baby, and you should, you know, this is what it taught me.
- [30:05]
Dylan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:07]
Chanel
It's the way she does it is way more authentic. So.
- [30:10]
Dylan
Okay, well, then we'll definitely need to link her through to so people can kind of check out examples of how she's doing, how it seems to have worked for her. But I do like, that. That sounds like there's just good alignment with, like, talking about starting a business and, like, having a real. A real person like Herman, even though that's not probably an example of, like, hey, he could have just, like, done this LLC thing. And here's a template. If you are in the same boat as him, how you can grab this document or template or whatever to start that and get it going. So that's a really great example.
- [30:40]
Chanel
And she's going to be on the podcast in a couple months, so everyone will get to meet her.
- [30:43]
Dylan
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Not in person, but she will be.
- [30:47]
Chanel
Dylan, if you fly out east, we.
- [30:49]
Dylan
Could make it happen for Labor Day long weekend. Let's do it. Let's. Let's. The week as my kids are going back to school, I think that timing would just be, you know, great timing. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Simon was great. One other person who talked a lot about more, like, authenticity and, like, showing up, building in public, and being, you know, yourself in public was Amanda Getz. And so I just referenced her. We won't go into more because too much detail with her, but she had an interesting analogy about lights and creators being different kinds of lights. Some people are like a lighthouse and they're shining like a big broad light on kind of the world and like attracting people to them. Other people are flashlights. You were referenced as a flashlight in her example. Right.
- [31:31]
Chanel
Because you are showcasing other people, like shining a light on other people and giving you the path forward. I don't know exactly what the.
- [31:39]
Dylan
Yeah, essentially like, yeah, you're like shining a light in the dark on like something sort of behind the scenes or how people did things that other people who want to know about that are not necessarily able to find as easily because you do all the deep dive research and uncover it. All right, so with your flashlight. And then she referenced being the third light was a porch light. And so what a porch light represents is like a porch. The lights on, there's chairs, come on in, hang out with me. And that's kind of the content and the vibe that she tries to emulate with her. With her content. And she showed examples of her posting and bringing people into her life, both personal and her business experience. She's got tons of business successes that she shares and also failures too. Right. So she just uses that as more of a like, build in public sort of authentic way to. To bring people into her life and share what's worked for her and how people can do the same.
- [32:31]
Chanel
That was a really interesting analogy. I. I like that one. And people. It stuck with people. Like, I heard a couple of other folks mentioning that. So I was like, oh, good job, Amanda.
- [32:39]
Dylan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was good.
- [32:41]
Chanel
I'm trying to think of what else that. It's honestly like I am really bad at remembering people's talks, but I'm really good at remembering, like, how things made me feel and like the experiences. So, like, I just, I don't know, like, getting to go to unplanned events with people and like being like, the serendipity that happens is just like so good. Like, I'm just a big fan of that kind of thing.
- [33:03]
Dylan
Yeah, absolutely. I found myself just like on the first night having dinner with Matt from our community at Jira and Natalie, who I funny enough like two years ago, did like a paid newsletter consult for and I met her husband on a stripe customer support call because I was trying to figure something out there and I. So I met him first and like, he was just super kind and we connected after and followed each other on LinkedIn. And then he mentioned me to his wife, Natalie, who runs a newsletter she was in. She joined jclos's lab not because of Me. But she ended up being there as well. And. And then like now I'm like having dinner with her and Matt and so it was just like, just totally unexpected, not planned. And that was like the serendipity of it all, how it all. All these worlds kind of collide and really fun, interesting and unexpected.
- [33:50]
Chanel
Yeah, totally. And I just want to say shout out to Barrett Brooks, who used to work for Kit, is now doing like executive coaching. He invited me to a dinner which was just like, he's so thoughtful. Like, gave away the people who attended. A lot of them had books. Like, they had published books and he ordered books and that was the party favor. So, like, when you left, you got to take one of the. The attendees and I was like, him and Sean Blanc, they were. They put it together and I was like, you guys are the best. Like, thank you for being so thoughtful and like, just supporting creators in any way possible. I just thought that was really cool.
- [34:26]
Dylan
That is cool. Yeah. I met Barrett for the first time at the. At the conference and you told me that, you know, he was a good guy and stuff and he just genuinely was like, yeah. He again, didn't have errors about him. Knows a lot of. Knows a lot of stuff. He was an executive coach, so he's met and helped very powerful people, very successful people. But you wouldn't necessarily know that by talking with him. So yeah, he was. He was a really dangerous guy and he really helped us out in our workshop that we did on the Friday. Yes. Where we were roasting newsletters and the conversation kind of went in the direction of deliverability. And he really kind of helped us out with that and spoke to his experience with Kit and how things kind of work on the back. And when you and I were just kind of both looking at each other like.
- [35:11]
Chanel
Like, it's like, I know replies are good for deliverability, but don't ask me the technical implications and like, all that. And he was like, oh, yeah, it's this, this. And I was like, oh, you're amazing. Thank you for being here.
- [35:22]
Dylan
Yeah, he was our star crowd member there.
- [35:25]
Chanel
Yeah. And I will say one of the takeaways for me too was actually hosting a meetup with Tim Grohl from Storygrid. So being able to, especially as an introvert, like, sometimes it's easier to put something on for other people and just have them come to you and like, that's the best part. Like, yeah, it costed a little bit of money, but being able to have, like, people come up to you and like, Just chat with you naturally was like super fun and like I didn't have to go out and like seek interactions necessarily, which is always hard as an introvert. Yeah, you're the host. Yeah. So that's like my little. My little hack for events. If you put together like a happy hour or some kind of meetup is just like so much easier to meet people.
- [36:07]
Dylan
And I gotta give again a shout out to Growth Reverse Pro members who were there. I think I counted the list. I counted it thinks including you and I, 16 growth reverse pro members there, which is like almost 20% of, if not 20% of like the whole community showed up. I think I met almost all of them. I'm not sure if I did. I don't want to name any names if I like did meet them. And I forgot. But just about everybody who was there I did meet and showed up to the meet and greet or not the meetup, which was again, awesome. Thank you so much for co hosting that with Tim. Yeah, I've already binged his book and I'm like done it. I did. I read the whole thing in like three days when I could. And so it just like gave me a new, I guess, light. To Tim, I didn't really know him well. You'd spoke highly of him, but just meeting him and like co hosting the thing with him and then reading his book was really cool. And then just meeting people there, like casually. I met people from like Montreal and we talked about like hockey stuff. Because we're Canadians, right?
- [37:04]
Chanel
Because we're Canadians.
- [37:06]
Dylan
And Katie from the community, who is there because we are Canadians. There was. There are American hockey fans, but I mean, Canadians are hockey fans.
- [37:13]
Chanel
Okay. Okay.
- [37:14]
Dylan
Katie, who was there? Terry who was there? I hadn't. I chatted with Terry before online, which was awesome to meet her in real person, in real life. But Katie I hadn't met and she was just like super cool. She had great tattoos, she was funny. She was like really personable as well. It was just. Yeah, it was, it was really cool to. To do that. So I think hosting meetups is a bit of a conference hack if you can both afford it with the time and the cost if. Or you could probably do it for very low cost as well. You and Tim were being very generous by buying everybody their first drink. I think that is a. Definitely a conference hack if you want to have people come out. It helps if you have a bit of an audience like you guys do. I'm not going to lie. But that's something that you could probably Try to organize in advance and. And have some success with Tim and.
- [37:54]
Chanel
I already talking about next year's meetup.
- [37:56]
Dylan
Yeah, you are.
- [37:57]
Chanel
And we're gonna try and coordinate outfits to make it easier to see who, like, is running the thing.
- [38:03]
Dylan
Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, amazing.
- [38:05]
Chanel
It's great. But, yeah, so that's. My little conference hack is just, like, put together your own meetup, and you could totally do it for free. You do not have to buy anyone's drinks. Just pick a spot, show up, tell people where you're at. You got any other ones?
- [38:16]
Dylan
I do, yeah. Why don't we finish it off with what I thought was probably the most epic of the keynotes, and no surprise, we already mentioned them. It was from Pat Flynn, in my opinion, epic because it was. It was like a show. It was like I was watching a YouTube show, to be completely honest. Like, he is a YouTuber, a podcaster. He's been doing keynote speeches for the last decade, probably, plus. And you can tell because he's very good at it, and he's really good at capturing and keeping your attention. And so it's no surprise that his topic was on how he basically grew this. This Pokemon channel from somebody, Pat, who knows marketing and knows content, but he didn't know anything about Pokemon, so he started this channel, and he basically approached it from that angle. I know all the stuff that kind of works for marketing and how to build things and grow audiences and get attention, but I don't know anything about Pokemon. So how can I use what I've learned to build this Pokemon channel because my kids are interested in it? So that was kind of the. The sort of core of his. His talk. What my big takeaway was, like, experimentation plus results plus iteration equals, like, this great growth. And that's kind of what he doubled down on. He's like, I didn't know anything about Pokemon. So we started doing videos about, you know, cards and growing collections and then binders, the type of binder to use. And, like, there's like. What was the analogy? Bad binder behavior.
- [39:29]
Chanel
Yes. Bad boundary behavior.
- [39:31]
Dylan
Yes. Right. Like, so, like, people are wrecking their Pokemon cards because they're putting them in the binders wrong and using the wrong type of card sheets or whatever you call them. And so he kept saying, like, bad binder behavior. And that was, like. Became a staple in his videos, and people started using it in comments and stuff like that on different Pokemon YouTube videos. And so he knew, like, okay, that's something I can use, and almost kind of brand and Then he got a sponsor out of it because there's this binder company in the uk, I think it was. And so it just. He just went down this path of how he took this channel from basically zero to I think over 3 million. That might even be on the low side. Either way, millions now of subscribers, hundreds of millions of views. And it was all because he kept testing out formats and seeing what worked, analyzing what didn't work, like showing his face. He even mentioned, like, he showed his face on the channel and they noticed there's this really dip or drop off in average view duration. And they went to see. Why is everyone dropping off at this point in the video? Because it was pretty good until that point. And of course, that's when Pat's face came on. People didn't care about his face. They cared about the cards and the story. And so they're like, okay, I'm going to pull my face out of. Out of these as much as possible. And so I just thought that was really, really interesting how he kind of did the anlor tiny experiment sort of approach with every video and then figured out what the results were and then iterated based on those results and just kept growing. And so he in sum, essentially said, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have got here by pretending to know everything or trying to figure everything out beforehand. I had to experiment to get to the point that I got to. And so I don't know if that was a really good way to summarize his talk, but I just, it kept me entertained and just like nodding and just smiling because I was just like, yes, this is so smart, so good. And of course, of course, this is how you do it.
- [41:18]
Chanel
I know, and I remember. So Ann Lor graciously came to our meetup afterwards and she was like, pat is just so good on stage. And I was like, you guys, you have to remember he has literally been doing this for more than a decade. Like, I've watched talks of his from like 2013, 2014. He was not as good. Like, he's experimented and tried this thing like, over years and years and years. So, like, as people like us who are just like normies public speaking, it's like you have to kind of remember that, like, there's somebody who's been doing this for a long time and that's like something to aspire to, but you have to look at, like what you're currently at and be okay with that and just learn and iterate from there and not expect to be Pat level good. But yeah, his was incredibly, incredibly insightful, eye opening, conversational. Like I just felt like he was talking to me, you know what I mean? He's just so good at that. But yeah, the tiny experiments and I think his book is called Lean Learning. So like it makes total sense. Condensed the time to like getting feedback and learning from what you're doing, taking action and being able to iterate from there is super important. So I really enjoyed that one too.
- [42:25]
Dylan
Yeah, it was really good. I think it to take it to kind of the newsletter sense. Like where can you apply this kind of Lean Learning? The experimentation results iteration into what you do for newsletters. Right. We can do it with subject lines, which people have done, but even just with content and, and not to, you know, pumpkit because we try to be agnostic when it comes to ESPs, but they're coming up with a new feature where you can basically a B test content within your newsletter and see what so excited what people click on. Right. So that's going to be really powerful if we use it the right way. And so if we take the approach of I'm going to try this this week and we actually analyze the results which I, I am guilty of not doing a good job of like trying something and seeing how it worked and then and improving upon it. If we actually do that and takes Pat, take Pat's advice, we're just bound to move forward and improve upon it. So I think there's a lot of good takeaways from this Lean Learning experimentation that can be applied to newsletters and how we, how we publish content and how we consume it.
- [43:23]
Chanel
I like that it's exciting to try and experiment with things and then like you said, you just have to remember to get better at looking at the results. So maybe setting a reminder or every Monday you look at your past week's email sends or that kind of thing. So building in those habits is super important and I need to do a better job of that too.
- [43:43]
Dylan
Yeah, and it got me thinking too. Like I have so much going on in my newsletter that it's like I'm not doing myself any favors when it comes to like trying to decipher actions taken, clicks taken. I try to over probably over deliver and so I'm probably under delivering. So I think it's a good reminder to like simplify the process, provide maybe fewer but higher quality, you know, parts of the newsletter if you will and links and that sort of thing and then you'll be able to actually like formulate some, some results or see the results, at least of what you're putting out there. As opposed to having, you know, 25 links in your newsletter, having only five links in your newsletter, pointing places is going to be a lot easier to get the results with and iterate from.
- [44:22]
Chanel
Cool. I love it. Can't wait to see what comes from that.
- [44:28]
Dylan
I got, I got other stuff here, but I think that's. We could save those maybe for another day. There was, there was just a lot, there was a lot to consume and I really still think it comes down to connection, real life, community and like being human online and in person. So those were kind of my, my big takeaways.
- [44:47]
Chanel
I think mine are very similar. Masterminds, connections, host your own meetup and everything else just falls into place.
- [44:54]
Dylan
Yep.
- [44:55]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [44:55]
Dylan
I love it. It's that easy. It's that easy.
- [44:57]
Chanel
So easy. Simple.
- [44:58]
Dylan
Yeah. Cool. Okay. I think we. Yeah, we, we probably. I don't know if we'll be at another conference together until next. Next year in Boise. Yeah, I mean, hopefully we will, but I'm definitely looking forward to it. They already started selling pre sale tickets for attendees and they're probably sold out. I think they're like 85% sold out out in the first hour as they had a big.
- [45:21]
Chanel
They had to open up more.
- [45:22]
Dylan
Yeah. So if you've never been to Craft and Commerce, if we've kind of sold you on it, I highly recommend checking out when it goes for public sale. Hopefully we will see you there and maybe, maybe we can chat.
- [45:35]
Chanel
Yeah. I already bought my ticket so I will be there for sure.
- [45:37]
Dylan
There you go. I am holding out my ticket because I want to.
- [45:42]
Chanel
Yeah. You have kids too?
- [45:44]
Dylan
No, not even that. They can wait for me at home. I'm just kidding. I want to, I want to push myself to pitch a. Either a keynote or a workshop. I think whether it's a joint one with you, which would be very, very fun again. But I've. I fear public speaking and I'd love to push myself to try to come up with something that's public speakable. So kind of holding out, holding that out for now. If not, if not, the conference is very much worth every penny that, that I would pay. So I will, I will be there one way or the other.
- [46:17]
Chanel
Amazing. Awesome. Well, yeah, hopefully we see you at Crafting Commerce 2026.
- [46:23]
Dylan
You will see me.
- [46:24]
Chanel
Well, I met everybody else.
- [46:25]
Dylan
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yes, everybody else as well.
- [46:28]
Chanel
Nice.