From Taking Notes to $1M in Revenue with Eddie Shleyner of Very Good Copy (#003)

Summary

Growth In Reverse Podcast: Detailed Summary of Episode #003 – "From Taking Notes to $1M in Revenue with Eddie Shleyner of Very Good Copy"

Release Date: December 18, 2024

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Introduction

In episode #003 of the Growth In Reverse podcast, hosts Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop sit down with Eddie Shleyner, the mastermind behind the highly successful newsletter and blog, Very Good Copy. This episode delves deep into Eddie's journey from meticulously taking notes to building a business that generates over $1 million in revenue. The conversation offers invaluable insights into effective newsletter growth strategies, managing burnout, and diversifying revenue streams.

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Meeting the Deep Dive: Chenell's Initial Research

Chenell shares her unique experience of interviewing someone she had previously conducted an in-depth analysis on. She recounts:

"About six months ago, I wrote a deep dive on Eddie Schleiner, and we actually were able to bring him on and ask him some more questions about what I got right, what I got wrong, and how he kind of thinks about his work and everything."
[00:00] Chenell Basilio

Chenell explains the challenges of conducting deep dives without prior interviews, highlighting how even the subjects sometimes forget the details shared in these analyses.

"Some of the things I shared, he was like, I totally forgot that I even did that."
[00:26] Chenell Basilio

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Eddie's Journey: From Google Docs to a Massive Subscriber Base

Origins of Very Good Copy

Eddie narrates the inception of Very Good Copy:

"I got hired as a copywriter for a company, and I was not a copywriter, knew nothing about copywriting, so I basically had to teach myself on the fly. And that was like the inception of very good copy."
[02:16] Chenell Basilio

He began by saving lessons and insights into a Google Doc, which eventually caught the attention of a colleague who encouraged him to publish his writings online, leading to the birth of his newsletter.

Growth Timeline and Intentional Marketing

Eddie emphasizes the role of intentional marketing in his growth, particularly after joining G2.com in 2018, where supportive colleagues motivated him to market his newsletter earnestly.

"I started 10 years ago, but I really didn't start growing it until I joined a company called G2.com... they encouraged me to start marketing it in earnest in 2018."
[05:26] Eddie Shleyner

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Effective Growth Strategies

1. Leveraging HubSpot for Initial Growth

Eddie shares his breakthrough moment with HubSpot:

"I wrote a post on HubSpot, and people couldn't figure out how to sign up for a newsletter... they emailed me asking how to subscribe."
[09:16] Eddie Shleyner

This led him to adopt Mailchimp, taking advantage of its free tier to manage his growing subscriber list.

2. Building an Idea Repository

Transitioning from Google Docs to Notion, Eddie discusses maintaining a centralized repository for ideas to ensure he never loses a creative spark.

"It's a notion now, but much easier. This helps me retain ideas and ensures that if I ever need inspiration, it's right there for me."
[15:06] Eddie Shleyner

3. Implementing Growth Loops with LinkedIn

Eddie utilized a growth loop strategy by cross-promoting his newsletter on LinkedIn, driving traffic back to his website and encouraging newsletter subscriptions.

"You were amplifying every post and exposing it to so many more people, driving those new folks back to my website."
[19:44] Eddie Shleyner

This cyclical approach significantly boosted his LinkedIn presence and subscriber count.

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Harnessing Social Proof: Collecting Testimonials

Eddie underscores the power of testimonials in establishing credibility:

"In the very beginning, the focus was to collect testimonials. I offered backlinks in exchange for reviews, which worked exceptionally well."
[21:20] Eddie Shleyner

He methodically built a testimonial repository, both inbound and proactive outreach, enhancing his newsletter's credibility akin to Amazon's product reviews.

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Diversifying Revenue Streams

Eddie outlines his multifaceted revenue model:

• Products (Courses and Book):
  "Products like the course and the book are probably 40% of my revenue."
  [41:16] Eddie Shleyner

• Sponsorships:
  "Sponsorships contribute around 30% of my revenue."
  [42:45] Eddie Shleyner

• Copywriting and Consulting:
  "Client work and consulting make up the remaining 30%."
  [42:45] Eddie Shleyner

Eddie expresses his intent to increasingly focus on productizing his expertise while maintaining client work to stay sharp in copywriting and marketing.

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Managing Burnout: The Power of Sabbaticals

Eddie candidly discusses his strategy to prevent burnout by taking sabbaticals:

"I take a couple of months off every year to focus on projects without the constant pressure of marketing and content creation."
[24:58] Eddie Shleyner

He explains the necessity of these breaks to concentrate on substantial projects like courses and book writing, emphasizing the importance of balancing productivity with personal well-being.

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The Challenge of Publishing a Book

Eddie shares his arduous journey of transforming his digital content into a cohesive book:

"Going back and editing everything to maintain a single voice was extremely challenging and time-consuming."
[48:06] Eddie Shleyner

Despite initial setbacks, including a tiresome process of coordination and content alignment, the book's launch proved fruitful, generating significant subscriber growth and reinforcing his brand.

"People are finding my newsletter via the book on Amazon, which was the intended effect."
[47:51] Eddie Shleyner

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Future Plans: Embracing Automation and Continued Growth

Looking ahead, Eddie plans to integrate Kit for automating his marketing efforts, allowing him to maintain authenticity while scaling his operations.

"I'm moving towards more automated marketing while striving to keep the authentic feel that people appreciate."
[28:09] Eddie Shleyner

He aims to enhance his newsletter's quality continually, believing that maintaining high standards will naturally attract and retain subscribers.

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Key Takeaways and Final Thoughts

Eddie emphasizes the significance of:

• Authenticity in Content:
  "Write something that moves you, compels you, and doesn't bore you as you read it back."
  [52:43] Eddie Shleyner

• Balancing Creation and Marketing:
  Differentiating between creating valuable content and marketing it effectively to avoid burnout.

• Leveraging Existing Content:
  Repurposing high-quality content to extend its reach without the constant pressure of generating new material.

Chenell and Dylan commend Eddie's approachable demeanor and strategic mindset, highlighting his balanced approach to growth and personal well-being.

"His whole vibe is just mellow, super approachable. I love that he takes months off at a time to focus on work and get away from algorithms."
[53:10] Dylan Redekop

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look into Eddie Shleyner's methodologies for scaling a newsletter into a profitable business. From strategic content creation and leveraging social proof to managing burnout through sabbaticals, Eddie's insights provide a blueprint for aspiring newsletter creators and digital entrepreneurs. His journey underscores the importance of authenticity, strategic marketing, and personal well-being in achieving sustained growth and success.

For those interested in learning more from Eddie, you can follow him on LinkedIn or Twitter, subscribe to his newsletter at Very Good Copy, or explore his book available on major platforms like Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the podcast transcript provided.

Transcript

[Chanel]

Welcome back to the Growth in Reverse podcast. For the first time ever, I actually got to interview someone that I did a deep dive on. About six months ago, I wrote a deep dive on Eddie Schleiner, and we actually were able to bring him on and ask him some more questions about what I got right, what I got wrong, and how he kind of thinks about his work and everything. So that was super cool.

[Dylan]

Some people probably don't know that when they read your deep dives that you haven't actually interviewed any of these people that you're doing the deep dives on, correct?

[Chanel]

Yeah, in the beginning, it kind of started out as, like, they didn't really know who I was, so they probably wouldn't have been, like, giving me the time of day to actually do all this research on them. But after a while, I started realizing that people actually forget what happened. Like, even talking to Eddie, some of the. Some of the things I shared, he was like, I totally forgot that I even did that. So thanks for reminding me. And you can kind of hear it if you go back, like, the number of interview podcasts that I listen to of, like, them being interviewed by other people, their answers change over time. It's super fascinating.

[Dylan]

That is really cool. And that. That doesn't surprise me. I think there's these bias to, you know, we have these kind of almost like issues with our memories and how they falter over time. And there's a whole bunch of studies, I'm sure that have been done about it. But yeah, it's cool that you've kind of seen that play out while doing these deep dives with people. Chanel, since you did this deep dive, like, first of all, I want to know, what was it like actually interviewing somebody who you've written a deep dive on?

[Chanel]

It was very cool. Eddie's such, like, a chill guy, and he was just like, this was really insane to, like, read all of that. He's like, I feel like you know more about me than I know about myself. Which feels very strange. Um, but no, it's cool, cuz so as I'm listening to all of these podcast interviews that they're doing, I feel like I'm getting to know them, but I've actually never met these people before, so it's kind of weird. Um, I'm sure it's very strange for someone I've written a deep dive on to be like, wow, this person spent like 40 hours listening to research about my life. And yeah, that's gotta be weird. But I guess it is. What it is.

[Dylan]

With doing that, though, I think that makes for, you know, that much more of an interesting interview, too, because we've got, like, kind of the lowdown on everything they've done. And with Eddie, he's been doing this for, like, 10 years, right? Very Good Copy sort of, kind of originated about 10 years ago in 2014. But I really liked his story how basically he got hired as a copywriter for a company, and he was not a copywriter, knew nothing about copywriting, so he basically had to, like, teach himself on the fly. And that was like, the inception of very good copy.

[Chanel]

A hundred percent. Yeah. So he just started kind of saving all of these lessons that he was learning into a Google Doc. And then someone at a job he was working at found, like, saw him writing this, and they're like, what, are you writing a book? And he's like, no, I have this whole, like, Google Doc of these things I'm learning. And they're like, dude, you got to publish these online. And he was like, what? And then he did. And that's essentially where a very good copy was born.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And then now like 70,000 subscribers, plus he's got a pretty robust business that he monetized a number of different ways, which we'll get to in the interview. So, yeah, those are. There's some really interesting point points in this interview that Eddie shares that we talk about in the. That you share in the deep dive that you highlight. But I think I love how he goes a little bit deeper and adds a lot more context, too, as well to some of the stuff he was doing and why he was doing it and. Yeah, definitely. And there's one thing, actually, that you called out that you totally missed when you were doing the deep dive that Eddie. That Eddie talks about a little bit more as well.

[Chanel]

Yeah, a hundred percent. That was really fascinating.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I'm Eddie. I run a newsletter and a blog called Very Good Copy. And there I write these micro lessons that are about copywriting and creativity, creative theory, how to think creatively, how to write, how to write, copyright. And I've been doing that for 10 years or so. But in this deep dive Chanel that you. That you wrote about it, which I really appreciate. Thank you for doing that. I was. I was. I was telling you earlier. I was. I was really stunned to see it and just see. See actually how in depth it was. It was pretty cool because I forgot. I've forgotten a few things that you'd mentioned in there, so it was neat. But, yeah, in there, you'd mentioned Something about like the intentionality behind the newsletter starting, the growth of the newsletter starting around like 2018. And so I think that's a, that's a salient point is that like I, you know, I started 10 years ago, but I really didn't start growing it until I joined a company called G2.com and I had amazing colleagues there, very supportive, very smart people who were in on the growth side of things. And they encouraged me to start marketing it in earnest in 2018. So for a while there, I was just kind of doing it for myself. I was just kind of, you know, teaching myself copywriting, teaching myself how to think creatively by writing these little lessons. You know, if I would listen to a podcast, read a book, watch a seminar, whatever, if I came into something that was interesting to me and something that helped me do my job better, I would, I would challenge myself to write about it so that, you know, if, you know, because I figured if I could do that, if I could teach it to other people, then I knew it well enough, so I was just doing it for myself straight up. And then, you know, when I got hired at this place and people saw this kind of backlog of articles that I had produced, they said, you should start marketing this. So that's really when it started, in 2018 or so.

[Chanel]

Nice. Let me actually share my screen. I want to jump into this growth timeline because I think that's interesting. It's a good point to bring up. So this is the growth timeline.

[Eddie Schleiner]

This is unreal. This whole. When I saw this, it was, I was like, this is so much effort. So I appreciate this. I appreciate this.

[Chanel]

So I actually started it in October 2017. But I think you started writing these micro lessons in like 2014. You started publishing them?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Well, not really publishing, no. I mean, maybe, maybe I did. I don't know. You tell me, tell me what the way back machine said. But I, I really don't, I don't remember what the, what the milestones were when I started putting stuff up. I just remember I, I started doing it with, solely for myself. Whereas like a lot of folks now, they have like this, they reverse engineer like a growth goal. You know, they'll say, oh, I want a hundred thousand subscribers on such and such platform. I wanted 50,000, you know, subscribers on my newsletter. And they'll, they'll reverse engineer how to get there. And I started with the opposite intention. I really didn't want an audience. I didn't think I wanted one. You know, that wasn't the, that wasn't the goal. I just wanted to, you know, be better at this, at this job that I had gotten that I knew nothing about. So. Yeah.

[Chanel]

Yeah. So it looks like you started. I mean, I think if I remember correctly, you started, like, really earnestly publishing them pretty consistently. Like, maybe not every week, but it was pretty close around 2017. And then once you left your day job, it. So for people who can't see the timeline, it's like pretty flat until right around the time you left your day job in 2020, and it just takes off. I just thought that was awesome. Do you think that's because you were so intentional with it at that point, or did you see something and that was the impetus for leaving your day job?

[Eddie Schleiner]

I left after, I think in March, right around when Covid happened. I started posting on. On LinkedIn. And. And that was really just a practical thing. You know, I had more time in the mornings. I had, you know, I didn't have to commute. And I just had time to devote to not just writing them, but. But also marketing them. You know, I think marketing is a huge, huge part of all this. And, and I just didn't have the time for it before. But when Covid hit, I decided to do that. And then by the end of that year, by the end of 2020, around November, I realized that, you know, I was getting opportunities that I couldn't really turn down, but I also couldn't really take if I had a full time job. So I just, I just left. And yeah, that was kind of a. That was kind of a risk, but probably. Probably one of my better risks as far as, like, work goes.

[Chanel]

It seems like it. So at the time, were you just doing like, consulting and stuff when you left, like, writing for other.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I was, I was copywriting. I was, I wasn't. Yeah, I didn't really start consulting until a few years later. And I. I guess the difference is, is just like consulting is. I get on a phone call and I, you know, or on a zoom call and I tell you what to do or I tell you what, you know, I give you my take, and then copywriting is, is harder because I'm actually writing it for you. So I think I was just doing copywriting at the time.

[Chanel]

Okay, interesting. Okay. So I guess we saw the growth timeline, we talked a little bit about revenue. I know there's more to it, but we can dig into it in a bit. But I kind of wanted to jump in. So I think with your first. The first growth lever that I pulled out was your HubSpot posting. Like you were just writing on HubSpot? I think, yeah, 2016 it looks like. And you said that you had written a post and people couldn't figure out how to sign up for a newsletter that I don't think you had at the time. So they emailed you and said, like, how can I sign up for your newsletter?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right, Yep, basically. Basically, yeah. There was a lot of. There's a lot of people that came over from a post and did not have any way to like stay in touch, I think so. So they emailed asking about it and that's when. That's when I got Mailchimp. And the thing on Mailchimp was like, it's free until 2000 subscribers. And I was like, great. Never going to pay. I'm never paying for this. You know what I mean? Because 2,000 subscribers seems so. Just unattainable to me. It just seems so crazy. But yeah, I think it's testament to how fast things can grow online. You know, when you have this worldwide audience at your disposal. It's crazy.

[Chanel]

But how did that feel like having people read your work on HubSpot.com and then be like, I want to sign up for your newsletter?

[Eddie Schleiner]

I was just, I was just motivated, I think, you know, it was just motivating and I appreciated that people took the time to write. I think back, you know, I think about myself and you know, how, you know, how rarely I write to people that even people that are inspiring me and that are. That I admire. I just either feel like they're not going to see it and it's just going to be in a voice somewhere or like, you know, I don't want to bother them or I don't want to take the time, you know. So I just felt I was just motivated by the fact that people actually took the time to do it and appreciative, I guess.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I had to feel cool.

[Dylan]

But I was curious how you, like, some of the people listening will probably Wonder like, whoa, HubSpot, you're writing for HubSpot. Like, how did that happen? How did that come about? And yeah, any learnings from that? Aside from obviously, you know, maybe having a newsletter sign up page before you. You start sending people to your newsletter or to your website.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, I think it started when I went to inbound one year and conference. I went to the inbound, the HubSpot inbound conference and I watched a presentation and one of the writers, one of the editors was either she was moderating panel or she was just like, assigned to that room. And I recognized her and I came up to her and I was just like, hey, you know, can I, can I submit something? And she was like, I remember, she was like, yeah, you know, absolutely. You can get in touch and send something. It's got to be long form. You know, I think they were doing a lot of like 1500-2000 word articles. And so I think I got somebody's email address that way and just sent them, sent them, you know, just the best article that I could. You know, I spent a long time on it and I was just. I just really tried to do a good job and they published it just because it was, you know, I guess I really try. I really tried to do a good job, you know, So I, you know, that's a takeaway if you want to get published somewhere. You know, it's. I don't know if it's probably less about who, you know, and just like how much effort you put into that, that piece. You know, they just want good stuff.

[Dylan]

And you publish more than one post with them, correct?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, I think it, I think it tallied up. I mean, eventually I had a column and so there's probably 20 or so posts up there. Nice. And I don't know how, how it really works. I think some of them get cycled out and then cycle back in depending on the year or they get updated or. I'm not really sure how the editorial process over there goes, but I love all those people. I love HubSpot. When I think about HubSpot, I think about, like the beginning of all this. I think about the opportunities that they gave me. I think about how. How nice they were to me as well, how encouraging and how motivating they were, you know. You know, it's testament to, like, how important it is to be supportive of young creative people, I think, because, you know, I was not. I don't know if I was a very good writer back then or, you know, I think I just, you know, was kind of like white knuckling the whole process and trying to do my best and, you know, it wasn't like, it's never easy, but it certainly. It really wasn't easy back then. Like just wrestling with all the ideas and turn phrases and everything. It was really kind of agonizing. But they were, they were super supportive and sent back very few edits and just were just encouraged me that way. So I look back on my time working with HubSpot editors very fondly.

[Chanel]

So fascinating that it started just by like, Going up to someone at a conference and being like, hey, can I submit an article?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Oh, yeah.

[Chanel]

I feel like so many people make it out to be like this huge process and you were just like, no, I'm just gonna ask this person.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was very. It was super off the cuff. And, you know, I think you just gotta. You just gotta go for stuff like that, you know, and you never know. If they don't take it, maybe somebody else will. You know, as long as you do it for, you know, I think you do it for yourself. You know, just don't try to reverse engineer anything. Don't try to reverse engineer, like, the biggest publication or the place where you're gonna get the most reach. Like, I think if you just lead with, like, your own. Your own desire to create something valuable for people or create something that engages, you know, if you're like, oh, I really like this, you know, this. This makes me vibrate in a way. Like, this is. This is. This is compelling for me. You know, if you, if you endeavor to do something like that, create something like that every. Every time you, Every time you write, then I think that's. That's the most important thing, you know, everything else will kind of fall into place.

[Chanel]

Yeah, agree. All right, so moving on to this next one was just build your well. And I know you have this. I think it's like a massive Google folder. Do you still do this process of having the well and all your ideas in there?

[Eddie Schleiner]

It's a notion now, but. Which is much easier. But, yeah, I mean, this is just a. This is just a technique that helps me retain, I guess, ideas and. Because, you know, sometimes I'll be like, at the top of my stairs and have an idea, and then I'll get a text and then I'll, like, respond to it as I'm walking down the stairs. And at the bottom of the stairs, I forgot the idea at the top, and I'm like, oh, man. What. What was that? So, like, you know, I'm just conscious of this, of, like, how fleeting these thoughts are and how fleeting these connections can be. And so I just. I tried to make it a habit to write everything down and keep it in one place so that if I ever needed inspiration or if I never, you know, if I ever, you know, wanted, you know, to go pick, you know, pluck something to write about, it's right there for me.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I like that a lot. I've been using notion a lot more recently too. It's a. It's been something that's hard to transition from Google Docs, but it's definitely a better tool, I think.

[Eddie Schleiner]

You were a Google Docs. You were a Google Docs user before then?

[Chanel]

Yeah, And Apple Notes and all of the things. I just have stuff scattered everywhere.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right, right.

[Dylan]

Try all of them. I was just going to say your idea of the. Well is. And recording that idea. I resonate very much with that because I go for runs once in a while, and when I'm on a run, sometimes these ideas kind of bubble up and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll make a note of that when I get home. And of course, you get home, and you're like, totally forget you even had the idea to begin with. And so I just got out the habit of, like, if I have an idea, I get on my phone, take a voice recording of it, and that's kind of like my audio. Well, I guess, so to speak. And that's helped me publish, you know, blog posts and articles and stuff like that, too. So I think I resonate a lot with that, and I think it's really smart. And a lot of people probably take for granted their memory or think that their memory is better than it is.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Well, yeah, I mean, for sure. I think we forget our lives as quickly as we live them. Why not. Why not set yourself up for success when you really have something. When you really have something in the pocket? And also, you know, it's not like. It's not a. It's not a bad thing. It's a lifestyle change. It's not a bad thing necessarily to, like, be pulling out your phone all the time and recording things. But sometimes it does get in the middle in the way of, you know, what you're doing, like, if you're at dinner or if you're, like, trying to fall asleep or if you're on a run or something like that. So it is like, a lifestyle change, and it's something that you have to get, you know, adjust to. And so I think that's why a lot of people don't do it, because they're like, well, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do this 20 times a day. I'm not gonna, like, change my. Change my routine and, like, change the way I am in front of people so often. So it is, like, a sacrifice in a way. And so I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but it can. It can be. So you just got to navigate that. Does that make sense? Like, I don't know. This has been my Experience, you know, like, nobody likes somebody pulling out their phone in the middle of a conversation and making a note, you know, or, like. And personally, we probably don't like, you know, like, being on the cusp of falling asleep and then pulling out your phone and, like, having to, you know, look at blue light and record something. So it's just. It's just one of those things where it's not. It's not, like, the easiest thing to do all the time. So it is. It is a skill set to kind.

[Chanel]

Of cultivate, but it does make your life easier when you actually want to go ahead and write something. Yeah.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yes.

[Dylan]

Yeah. It's a.

[Eddie Schleiner]

It's.

[Dylan]

I think it's a habit thing, too, right? Like, just getting in the habit of, like, when an idea comes to mind, recording it somehow not being rude to people you're with, maybe, but just like. Sorry, you know, one sec. I need. I just had a really great idea, something you said. Whatever. I need to record this.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yes.

[Dylan]

Please don't hate me.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right, right.

[Chanel]

That's funny. Um. Yeah. All right, so I guess for the third one that I found was growth loops. Um, and you're, like, really big into LinkedIn. You said you started it around 2020 because you had more time in the morning to write. Um, but one thing I did pull out was, like, the growth loops that you were essentially sharing an article in your email, and then at the bottom, you'd say, head over to LinkedIn, comment here. And then on LinkedIn, you're sharing or you're sending people back to the website. So it's just this nice little circle that you had going on. Do you think that really helped with your LinkedIn growth in the early days?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yes, I do. I think those. I think that was a big part of it because, you know, you were essentially kind of. You were amplifying every. Every post and exposing it to so many more people. And then, yeah, driving those. Those new folks back to my website. And then, you know, the website is basically built for, you know, it was designed to get people into the newsletter. So out of all the CTA is on there, probably 95 of them are. 95% of them are, you know, asking people to join the newsletter. And then so every time you send it and, you know, execute the growth loop, the next time around, the next newsletter, you have more subscribers to help amplify your posts. And I do think there's diminishing returns with that. And over time, it became less and less necessary. And so I might kind of be weaning off of that strategy. But certainly when I first started, given the landscape of LinkedIn at the time and, and everything, it was, it was a fruitful thing.

[Chanel]

Your website is definitely built for conversion. The social proof on there is kind of insane. You have, like, endless testimonials in a bad way.

[Eddie Schleiner]

In a bad way.

[Chanel]

I'm wondering, like, so for just the testimonials on the newsletter, are you, like, reaching out to people specifically or is there like an automated. Like, after they've been on your email list for two months, you ask them for a testimonial or something, or you just get those inbound?

[Eddie Schleiner]

In the very beginning, the first year that I was sending out the newsletter, that was like the focus of the newsletter was to collect testimonials. So I would, I think there was a link in there that said, you know, leave a, leave a review, get a backlink. And that was kind of my offer to folks because I would say, hey, you know, I'll link back to your LinkedIn or your, or your website if you, if you leave a testimonial about the, about the book. And, well, it definitely worked for subscribers. Definitely worked for subscribers. And then, you know, you know, if I, you know, any. Anybody else on the, on the homepage, like this quote, unquote, like, featured like testimonials, and those are, those are folks that I've worked with in the past that maybe have garnered audiences of their own or are, you know, you know, they just, they just have a presence in the industry. And so I just asked them very directly, sometimes more than once. Probably gotta ask, gotta ask for them.

[Dylan]

How much do you think those testimonials have played a part in your growth and in growing the newsletter and getting even. Getting clients, too?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's hard to quantify it, but I think they've certainly done a lot for me. I mean, it's just this instant credibility, you know, that people see. And then, you know, I'm sure most subscribers will read something that I've written before subscribing to the newsletter. But, you know, with this kind of testimonial wall, so to speak, it's almost like, it's almost not necessary if you don't, if you don't want to, you know, you just know that. You just know that they're, you know, there's this. There's this abundant, you know, credibility associated with the newsletter, I guess. So it's kind of like going. It's going to Amazon, you know, and seeing a product that has, you know, hundreds of five star reviews. Right. You know, it's just this kind of like, length implies strength, heuristic at work. And so I give it a lot of credit. I give it a lot of credit. I think.

[Chanel]

Nice. I noticed you had a bunch in the beginning of the book too. You have like four pages of testimonials. I love it. So good. I'm like, yep, here he goes again.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Eddie Schleiner]

It's probably what a lot of people are saying. I don't know how to feel about it anymore.

[Chanel]

Well, it definitely stands out. So I think it's a good thing.

[Dylan]

We haven't even gotten to the book yet, so we'll have to touch on that too before we. Before we end here.

[Chanel]

I know. It's a good one. Eddie credits a lot of his subscriber growth to having tons of testimonials on his landing pages. It's hard enough to get people to your website. You kind of want all of those people that you can to actually convert and subscribe. Eddie did this manually at first by messaging people, offering a backlink, but you can actually use a tool like Senja to make this easy. And people can just use the form, submit their testimonial with their image, a video if they want to, and you're all good to go. Senja makes this easy to display them on your website and in your emails as well. You can get started for free over at growth in reverse.com senja that's growth in reverse.com senja. And now back to our conversation with Eddie. One of the things that really stood out to me was this take sabbaticals thing. And I'm so curious because there are so many creators who like, go through burnout and they're just like on the content hamster wheel and, you know, writing week after week. And I saw that you took sabbaticals, like a couple months off every year. And I was like, this guy's brilliant. Like, no one has the balls to just like, sit there and be like, I'm going to take the next two months off and that's it. Good luck.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I. I need to focus. I need to focus on a project to really get the best out of myself and get the best results, I think. And that's super hard to do when you're trying to manage marketing on social media and trying to manage writing a new newsletter every week or a couple times a week. Even if I have a big project that I know is going to, you know, pay off in the end Then, then I'll definitely take, I'll definitely take a couple months. Just, you know, it's not like I. A sabbatical is kind of, it's misleading because, you know, it conjures images of like being on a beach with the Corona. That's not what I'm doing. I'm just, I'm just not, I'm just not marketing and I'm just not present, I think online as much. And you know, so if I, if, if I create a course, I take, you know, three months off and I, and I work on that course and then I launch it and then, because that's another thing is it's like if you make a product, you don't just got to make the product, you got to make the, you got to create the launch plan as well and actually launch it. So it's, it's a lot of work. Same with the book. You know, the book was, you know, a real labor and probably took me longer than three months. So it wasn't like I was, I wasn't around for the six or seven months that I was making it. But it was definitely a slower time for me online. But I think a lot of people, they can't imagine themselves doing it because they see social media or their presence on social media as like this proxy for their success. But really it's a false proxy, especially with everything that's, all the pods and everything, all the ways to manipulate your presence there on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever. It's a false proxy for how you're doing. I think the real proxy is how are people engaging with your newsletter and then how are your sales? How are you selling things? It's just a matter of training your brain to realize what's actually important, what's actually, you know, moving the needle for you and your business versus, you know, this, the perception. And sometimes perception is important, especially in the beginning. Like you have to, like I said, there has to be that initial like credibility when people see you. But after a certain point, you know, you reach a threshold and you're like, okay, well what am I, what am I, what am I going to do? Am I just going to kill myself for another year to achieve this kind of growth when I've already, you know, built a newsletter, built a business, Shouldn't I be focusing on that? I don't know. That's, that's kind of how I feel.

[Dylan]

And do you, when you take these breaks to focus on projects, are you setting any automations up? Are you still publishing the newsletter? Does that all just kind of like, no, I'm done. None of that keeps going. How does that work?

[Eddie Schleiner]

I will be now. I wasn't for a long time. I just never, I never had any automations. I was at Mailchimp for 10 years. I never had any automations set up. I never had any. Yeah, everything that, everything that was happening was being, I was doing and.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Eddie Schleiner]

So, you know, I'm kind of kicking myself now because it was, I probably could have gotten a lot more done and you know, I probably could have been, you know, maybe not, not more productive but more, you know, I could have balanced like growth and craft at the, at the same time better. But actually I, yeah, I asked Chanel if, if, if Kit was a good place to go and she had some good feedback about that. So I went to, I went to Kit and they have the most amazing platform for automations and sequences and you know, all those growth levers. So I will be, I will be doing more, more automated marketing I think, moving forward, but hopefully still keeping it, you know, like, I hesitate to say authentic but like hopefully still keeping it that, that way, giving it that feeling. Because I think that that's a lot of what people appreciated, at least from the feedback that I got about my newsletter.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I don't think automations make it any less authentic. As long as you're doing the same quality of work and it's still you, it's not like somebody else publishing it or anything like that. So I think you'll be all right with that. Would you like repurpose content while you were taking these sabbaticals or like rerun something you wrote three years ago or whatnot?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, yeah, all the time, all the time. I mean I, you know, Seinfeld is in syndication, I'm not Seinfeld. But you know, great content is always being syndicated and so I, I've always felt like, hey, if I, if I produce something that I'm really proud of that has, you know, moved a lot of people in the past, why not, why not syndicate and put it out there more often? Because you know, only a fraction of my audience sees every, every post.

[Dylan]

Exactly.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I mean If I have 100,000 people on LinkedIn or 100, whatever it is, like 100 and 1900 and 19,000 people on LinkedIn. I, you know, I think maybe 10% of my total audience sees every post. So that to me is just kind of like a no brainer.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think there's a pressure on a lot of creators, newsletter publishers, et cetera, to, like, always be writing something new, coming up with new content. But if you have this backlog of content you've already created, why, like, I don't know, beat yourself up and stress out about, you know, putting out a new. A new hit every week when you already have some. Something in the greatest hits catalog?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right, right. I think it's just a matter of, like, you know, some people conflate, like, creating with marketing, you know, like, just be like, you don't. You can't create something every day or even every week sometimes, you know, like, it takes a long time, I think, depending on what it is. But creating something, you know, you just have to be so thoughtful and intentional. And, you know, to do it really well, it takes time and effort. And, you know, there's. There's just has to be sometimes a buffer between the things that you make. But when you're marketing, I mean, that. That's how I see, you know, the syndicated content thing. You know, it's just. I'm just marketing the brand. I'm just marketing the newsletter, trying to get more people in it so that I can show them the new things that I create. So I think there's, like, this. Yeah. People conflate the two. And again, that's not a. You know, that's. It's just. They're not the same thing. So, you know, don't do that, because that is. You are going to burn yourself out that way. You know, if every time you share something, you got to make something, you know, that's crazy.

[Dylan]

I think it's a good message.

[Chanel]

Nice.

[Dylan]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Chanel]

Yeah, agreed. As someone who writes deep dives like this and feels bad when I can't put one out, thank you.

[Dylan]

Every week.

[Eddie Schleiner]

You are seen. You are seen, Chanel.

[Chanel]

Appreciate it. I actually realized two days ago or yesterday that I missed something in this deep dive. Um, you launched on Product Hunt pretty. I guess it was pretty early on. Um, I totally missed this, and I was like, wow, okay.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I missed it too. I missed it, too. I. I didn't know. I didn't notice that that wasn't included. I mean, literally everything else was, so don't beat yourself up.

[Chanel]

No, I think it's interesting. I'm curious, like, was that a good use of your time? Because I know Product Hunt launches can take up quite a bit of headspace and marketing and that kind of thing.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was. I actually made a. I actually recorded my entire process and put it into, like, what I called, like, a Like a micro course or basically like a long article. It was very similar to like a, like a deep dive kind of structure that you have Chanel and I made it available for folks to. It was like a lead magnet for anybody that subscribed. But then I was getting so much positive feedback about it that I just, I made it, I packaged it up and I, and I, and I started selling it, but now I don't even know where I'm selling it anymore.

[Chanel]

I think it was on gumroad because I found it afterwards.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, so it, you know, I, I don't market it at all. I, I, yeah, I don't really think about it that much, but every now and then like a sale pops up. I'm like, oh, cool. I'll just.

[Chanel]

It's so interesting.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, it was a good use of time because it taught me something new. It taught me how to, how to launch something on product hunt. And again, it was just, it was just another credibility lever that I could pull, you know, whenever I needed to.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I, it just looks like so much effort. And I saw you said you got 906 subscribers from it, and I was like, that's a lot. But it wasn't worth, like, I feel like those things take like 80 hours to, like, put together. Is that on face?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it was a lot. I don't remember exactly how much time, but the 906 subscribers is great. But really, I think, like, my takeaways were just like, okay, how do I, how do I think about very good copy? You know, how do I package very good copy up for an audience of net new people and explain it to them? You know, that was, I think that was really the benefit of it for me because it forced me to think about my product and brand probably in a way that I really haven't. Hadn't before. And, you know, so, so, you know, just the cl. The clarity that it gave me was really refreshing, I think.

[Chanel]

Interesting. I like that take on it because usually you just look at like, the numbers and you're like, oh, that's cool. But I could see how that would almost be a forcing function for you to kind of, you know, put together the, the words for what your brand is and what people can expect.

[Dylan]

Exactly the word.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, it's like the, it's, it's the Rory suffer on Sutherland kind of take on AI where he's like, yeah, like a, I can, you know, it can write your, your ads for you, but the real value in creating an ad is the process that you go through to create that ad. You know, how you think about the product, how you think about the market, how you think about the offer. You know, all, all of that will help you ultimately create the right message. You know, and it's really hard to, if not impossible, to like prompt an AI to do that for you off the cuff. Like, you need to go through the hard, difficult, slow work of thinking about what you're selling in order to really. To create the best message for it. Yeah, that's what happened to me here with the product launch. Yeah. Plus.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Eddie Schleiner]

And so, yeah, and all the subscribers and you know, having, you know, having it pop up when you Google it and stuff like that. I think that's all a very good byproduct. But yeah, the A1 was like, okay, what am I selling here? And how does it inform how I market going forward?

[Chanel]

I'm curious about VGC plus because I heard you bring this up in so many podcasts and I'm like, where did.

[Eddie Schleiner]

This thing go, dude? How many of my podcasts have used. I get. So. Okay, let's keep going. Sorry. Because I know that this, I know that this deep dive took a, took a lot of research. But like now I'm, now I'm like super self conscious of how, how much.

[Chanel]

No.

[Eddie Schleiner]

How much research you've done. But go on, go on.

[Chanel]

No, I was just curious. Like you, I don't know, in the one episode you were like super excited about it. And then I like didn't hear about it again. And I was like, wait, where did this thing go? And then I looked and I don't know, there's not much evidence of it on the Internet.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right. Well, because, because it was just that. That's what we were talking about was like the, that was like a burnout trap. Because you really did. I really did have to create something new every single week. And something like demonstrably better, I felt like for that, for that community than what I was putting out on in the newsletter and on LinkedIn because it was paid. So like I had to come up with something fresh every week, sometimes multiple times a week. I think I said I would like put out a new post every two or three days.

[Dylan]

Wow.

[Eddie Schleiner]

So I like totally over delivered on what I, what I, what I'm capable of doing. You know what I mean?

[Chanel]

Or any human.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Well, I mean, you know, I, it was. The thing is it was just me and I was. At the same time I was running, you know, the Consulting business and the copywriting business and marketing on. On. On LinkedIn and Twitter and writing a newsletter. And now I take on this. This kind of new paid community. And with that also comes all of the interactions inside of that paid community, answering all those comments, like, you don't want to leave people hanging. So it was just. It was so much. And I felt so much pressure every few days to, like, to make something new and make something great. And, like, so it was just. It was. It was really tough. It was burning me out, and I just kind of. I. Well, I think you used a certain term. Sunset it. I sunset it. I sunset it big time. And maybe. Maybe I'll come back and maybe when the time is right and I have the infrastructure for it, like, I'll do something. I'll do something like that again. But it was just. Was. It was the wrong time, wasn't the right time to do it. We just had our. We just had our first baby. It was. There's so much. There's so much going on.

[Chanel]

I was like, how long did you have it running for?

[Eddie Schleiner]

Maybe a year.

[Chanel]

Okay.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Maybe a little less.

[Dylan]

Wow.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Something like that. Not.

[Chanel]

Just.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Not. Not a. Not a negligible amount of time. Like, enough for me to, like, have a total nervous breakdown. Like, I can't do this anymore. We're stopping this. No, it wasn't a nervous breakdown, but it was. It was. It was tough, but it was. It was a timing thing. You know what I mean? Chanel? It was just a. It was a timing thing, and I just didn't have all my ducks in a row, and I. I launched it right when I. Right when I left G2. And yeah, I think in hindsight, a course is a much. Was. Would have been a much better product to focus on.

[Dylan]

Did you feel maybe a little bit like, hey, I left my, you know, corporate job and now I feel this pressure to, like, earn revenue making, you know, a reliable income, and I've got to do, like, a paid private community and keep my consulting business going and the newsletter, everything like that. It was.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Hell, yeah.

[Dylan]

Part of their reason. Yeah.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Hell, yeah. Absolutely. You got to make a living. I gotta make a living. So that was. Yeah, that was just like the first thing that I jumped on and. But of course, would have been better because it probably would have been as much, if not less effort. But, you know, with a course, you make it once, and then you just. The effort is in marketing it over and over again.

[Dylan]

And, I mean, you've got free micro courses, too, which are like, in and of themselves, like super valuable that are just lead magnets. So I'm really curious to, for you to share a little bit about, you know, sort of what is driving revenue for you.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Well, yeah, so I can give you like the percentage breakdown and.

[Dylan]

But yeah, we don't need numbers.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Right, but, but to be clear, I think, I think it's, it's the percentages are estimates and very rough ones at that because like they're all kind of levers that I can pull in a way. You know, like if I, if, you know, basically I make money with products, right. So the course and the book and then sponsorships of the newsletter and then copywriting and consulting and if I market or advertise one more than the other, that becomes kind of the driving source of revenue. But I would say yeah, historically it's products like the course and the book are probably 40% of my revenue and then sponsorships are 30% and then, you know, client work consulting is another 30%. But ultimately I'd like to, you know, keep on productizing the business and the brand and I'd like it for products and sponsorships to bring in more and more money and maybe pare down the client work. I don't think I'll ever stop taking on clients because of such. Keeps you fresh. It's great experience. Like it keeps you thinking like a copywriter and a marketer. So I think it's extremely valuable to write copy for other brands besides your own. You know, I just enjoy, I enjoy the process of making products and marketing those products and selling them. So I think I'll keep on going down that path.

[Dylan]

Are you doing this all by yourself?

[Eddie Schleiner]

I am the creative part. I am, I'm not doing the, you know, the back end business administration by myself. I have a finance manager that handles that for me because I'm very, I'm not talented at all at that. So you know that, that part of the business is taken care of. But the creative work is all me at the moment.

[Dylan]

What about like sponsorship outreach and stuff like that? Or is it mostly all inbound?

[Eddie Schleiner]

It's, it's mostly inbound. I have an ad in the, in the newsletter.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Eddie Schleiner]

You know, to make that even easier and to make that also better for sponsors, I, I'm going to encourage kind of like more long term sponsorships. So instead of having, you know, one per newsletter, I'll have one per, per quarter. You know, one sponsor per quarter. And that's ultimately gonna, gonna yield a better result for, for everybody because, you know, if you Go to a radio station and you asked to buy one ad, they won't sell you one ad. You know, they'll sell you seven ads or 15 ads, you know, that they want you to. They want that. That. That recurring message. Because the more people hear it, the more likely it is, though, they'll act on it. So, same concept.

[Dylan]

I think a lot of people kind of talk down on traditional media and magazines, print is all dead, but they did things. They definitely did some things right, for sure. And I think advertising is one huge lesson that people in our space, the creative, the digital creative can take away is. Yeah, they would never. You'd never buy a mix. Like, I mean, rarely would you just buy, like, one newspaper insert ad or one magazine insert ad or one television ad even. It's usually sold in bundles and packages. And you're. If you do happen to buy the one off ad, it's probably not gonna perform very well. Like, you need that. That repetition, right?

[Eddie Schleiner]

That's exactly right. So hopefully I can pull that off. I have. I have. I'm just saying I have in the past, and it's. It's been. It's been great. So, you know, because it's. It's less. It's less work on my end. It's less work to kind of, like, update the newsletter every time and to, like, have those conversations about what the offer is and where is this ad going? What does the landing page look like? Because I want everybody that advertises to be successful. So I do help with, you know, writing the ads and, you know, making sure that the congruence between the ad and the landing pages there, like, I am involved in that. So it'd be great to just, you know, have one big project per quarter instead of, you know, 12 little ones.

[Dylan]

Well, I think the recurring. The recurring nature of it is easier just for everybody. Right? Like, yep, the advertisers are going to see better returns and you don't have to stress out about finding a new advertiser every week or every few weeks or month even. So makes a lot of sense.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yep.

[Chanel]

So as for what's working right now, I'm curious. This book is awesome, by the way. I was very surprised because usually when people will just take newsletters and throw them into a book, I'm, like, a little hesitant because I'm like, is that really going to be, like, a good thing? But this is. It, like, flows really, really nicely. You did a very good job with this.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Thank you. I appreciate it very much. It was one of the things that Made the process so long is like going back and editing all. Everything that I've written to not only kind of one voice it, but to make sure that if the order that I put it in would flow, you know, if you wanted to read it front to back. So I appreciate you saying that.

[Chanel]

Yeah, it's great. Are you seeing subscribers from it? I know you have like a QR code in the front and all that stuff. Have you been able to like track that you're getting subscribers or you see an uptick or anything?

[Eddie Schleiner]

I have not. I haven't tracked the QR code like a momo. So I don't know how many people are coming in from the book. It's a good point. I have to, I'll have to talk to my kit account manager. But yeah, I, you know, I get, you know, anecdotally, I get emails from people saying that, hey, they just, they were looking on Amazon for copywriting books and saw mine and then they went and subscribed and then they bought the course. And so there's, you could see anecdotally again, like the kind of the path that people take. And I think that's why I focused on marketing and launching the book for so long and kind of, you know, took a, took a hit on maybe some of the sponsorship revenue that I could have, that I could have had from earlier in the year because I was just kind of just promoting the book and promoting the wait list and making sure that people were on it so that I can, you know, more or less ensure that there was a. That the launch was good and, and that it would become kind of a fixture in like the copywriting. The copy, like with the copywriting keyword on Amazon so that people can find it organically.

[Chanel]

So that's gotta feel cool that people are just like finding your newsletter via a book on Amazon.

[Dylan]

That's so cool.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I mean, that was, that was the idea. That was the idea. So I'm glad it's working out.

[Dylan]

I'm. I'm really curious what, what you learned from, you know, going from this digital space to publishing a physical copy of something. Like, do you have any like, key learnings that you took away from the experience or maybe something like you were totally surprised by that. You didn't expect.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Well, I didn't expect how hard it was going to be. Honestly. I thought that it was, I thought there was going to be, you know, I took a bunch of, I took my best of and put them together and that was going to be the book. But really it was. It was extremely arduous and kind of a form of torture at some point, you know, because it was like I, you know, I had to go. I had, you know, a lot of the. Some, you know, some of the book is from five I've written. I wrote it five, six, seven years ago. And I had to go back. And my writing style has changed since then, and I've changed since then. And so I had to go back in one voice, everything. So that was the hardest part by far is going back and editing everything and again making sure that, you know, it flowed in the order that I wanted it to. And, you know, that was. That just took so much longer than I thought it would. And I was really, you know, in hindsight, really naive to think that I was just gonna throw this thing together. But then also coming up with the concept for the book, the original title was going to be Becoming a copywriter, believe it or not. And like, the COVID was going to be totally, totally different. It wasn't going to reflect the branding at all. A very good copy. And, you know, I worked with a really talented cover designer, Zoe Norvell, and. And she was just so nice to me because I was. I was. My going back and forth with her, like, was. I'm sure she's. I don't know if she's experienced anything like that before because literally she's. She changed. She. She got me the COVID and I loved it. And then I sent it around to some. Some of my mentors and some folks that. That I should have tapped a lot sooner. And they were like, Eddie, like, this is the wrong way to go, probably. You know what I mean? Like, this doesn't speak to current subscribers. It doesn't speak to anybody that doesn't know you yet. Like, this is just going to be floating in a void, you know? And so then I just. I just put the COVID together myself in like 20 minutes, believe it or not, after, like weeks and weeks of work. I just. I just scratched it and I just put the COVID together and I was like, hey, can you just make, like, make this all align and this is going to be the COVID So, yeah, huge learning there.

[Dylan]

Wow. Wow.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And was it self published?

[Eddie Schleiner]

It was, yeah, it was self published. So. And that was another thing is just coordinating that process was a job in and of itself and just everything took longer. Everything took longer than I thought it would. Man, am I getting PTSD right now thinking about that. It's like triggering me.

[Dylan]

So I don't know. We don't have to ask you if you do, if you would do it again anytime soon.

[Eddie Schleiner]

I would. No, I absolutely would. And I want to, I want to continue like putting out volumes, but I just know so much, so much now and so much more than when I started. So it's all about, you know, organizing it the way that I, the way that it needs to be organized from the get go and that saves so much time and just being intentional as you, you know, as I'm putting out new content about. Okay, where's this going to go and how is this going to fit in the next book?

[Chanel]

That's awesome. So after, I mean, now that you've written this book, it's out in the world, published, what's next? Like how are you going to continue this brand, your growth, all that stuff? Or you're going to take two months off first or.

[Eddie Schleiner]

No, I think I already did that. I think I already did that after the book. But I think it's just going to keep on going. You know, I'm on a new platform now, like I said, so I'm playing around with all of the, the features there and creating sequences and creating automations that I think would be delightful for people. So I'm working on that. But also just, you know, making a real conscious effort to be productive in this, in this latter part of the year and going into 2025, because I wasn't really that productive as far as like net new work in the beginning of 2024. So I'm just going to keep on sending out newsletters and you know, doing my best to improve each issue. And I really do think, I really do think that's enough. You know, as long as you kind of focus on putting out your best work and putting quality first, everything will kind of fall into place.

[Chanel]

Nice. And like you said, just write stuff that you're interested in. Other people will find it and likely be interested as well. So.

[Eddie Schleiner]

Yeah, well, I think write stuff that moves you. Like, you know, you have to have an audience, a specific type of person or I'm writing about copywriting, I'm writing about creativity, I have to stay in that space. I think the important part is write something that moves you, compels you, makes you feel good, something that you're interested in, something that doesn't bore you as you read it back. That's a good barometer of the quality of your work.

[Chanel]

Wow. The way he approaches stuff is just so refreshing. What do you think, Dylan?

[Dylan]

Yeah, his whole vibe is just mellow, super approachable. I love that he takes months off at a time to focus on work and get away from algorithms and stuff like that, and I think more of us could probably benefit from that kind of thing.

[Chanel]

Yeah, as we head into the holidays and the busy season with family and stuff, maybe it's a good reminder to allow ourselves to take some time away and actually enjoy life.

[Dylan]

There are worlds outside of algorithms and Internet.

[Chanel]

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