How CJ Gustafson Grew Mostly Metrics to 60k+ Subscribers & Multi‑Six‑Figures in Revenue

Summary

Podcast Summary: Growth In Reverse Episode: How CJ Gustafson Grew Mostly Metrics to 60k+ Subscribers & Multi‑Six‑Figures in Revenue
Release Date: August 6, 2025
Host/Author: Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Growth In Reverse, hosts Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop sit down with CJ Gustafson, the mastermind behind the successful newsletter Mostly Metrics. CJ shares his journey from a tech CFO to a prominent figure in the newsletter space, detailing the strategies that propelled his subscriber base to over 60,000 and generated multi-six-figure revenue.

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CJ Gustafson's Background

CJ begins by recounting his career trajectory, transitioning from consulting at PwC to becoming a CFO in the tech startup ecosystem. Despite feeling like a "B minus" in his early roles, he found his niche in financial planning and analysis, which eventually led to his CFO position. This professional foundation was pivotal in establishing his credibility when he launched Mostly Metrics.

Notable Quote:
"I was a B minus, it looked cool on LinkedIn, but I don't think I was totally that great at them."
— CJ Gustafson [01:17]

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Growth Strategy of Mostly Metrics

CJ discusses the evolution of Mostly Metrics, emphasizing the importance of injecting personality into financial content. By deviating from the typical sterile finance narratives, he created engaging and relatable content that resonated with readers.

Notable Quote:
"I'm just going to... let my freak flag fly. It's not like I was trying to be weird or anything."
— CJ Gustafson [06:32]

He highlights the significance of building a competitive moat through unique content and personal engagement, making his newsletter stand out in a crowded market.

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Content and Engagement

The blend of valuable financial insights with humor and personal anecdotes has been a cornerstone of CJ's content strategy. This approach not only attracts CFOs and aspiring financial professionals but also engages a broader audience who appreciate the lighthearted elements.

Notable Quote:
"You come for the gifts and then you stay for like the CAC payback calculation."
— CJ Gustafson [03:40]

CJ emphasizes the importance of creating content that sparks meaningful interactions, valuing reader replies over superficial metrics like likes.

Notable Quote:
"If you wrote something and it gets, like, 58 likes or something on Substack, that's... But nobody says anything and nobody comments like that. That's so empty to me."
— CJ Gustafson [40:39]

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Sponsorship and Monetization

CJ elaborates on his innovative sponsorship model, which focuses on long-term brand partnerships aligned with his audience's profile. By requiring sponsors to commit quarterly, he ensures sustained engagement and builds trust both with his readers and sponsors.

Notable Quote:
"You got to build that trust over time just to be part of the consideration set when it is time to purchase."
— CJ Gustafson [11:00]

He also shares insights into maintaining pricing integrity, avoiding discounts to preserve the value of his sponsorship packages.

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Podcast Development

Expanding his media presence, CJ launched the Run the Numbers podcast, which complements his newsletter by offering in-depth interviews with top CFOs and investors. Initially struggling to secure guests, his consistent effort and network growth eventually led to high-profile interviews, significantly boosting his podcast's reach.

Notable Quote:
"What you find are, like, they're, at the end of the day, people. People are eager to learn and get better at things."
— CJ Gustafson [47:15]

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Metrics and Success Indicators

CJ places immense value on qualitative feedback, such as reader replies, over quantitative metrics like likes or open rates. He believes that direct engagement signifies true impact and resonance with his audience.

Notable Quote:
"How many people stop and wrote me a reply, good, bad, or indifferent. If you write something and it gets... that's when I know that it hit."
— CJ Gustafson [40:39]

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Future Plans

Looking ahead, CJ is incubating a data and benchmarking service to complement his media offerings. By leveraging his extensive subscriber base, he aims to provide valuable first-party data, enhancing both his newsletter and podcast content. Additionally, he is exploring exclusive events for CFOs, fostering deeper community engagement.

Notable Quote:
"It's the whole business equation in reverse. But at the same time, like, the media is still the main product. None of that's possible without the other stuff."
— CJ Gustafson [50:26]

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Conclusion

CJ Gustafson's journey with Mostly Metrics is a testament to the power of authentic, engaging content combined with strategic monetization. By prioritizing meaningful interactions and building trust with both his audience and sponsors, CJ has successfully transformed his newsletter into a thriving media enterprise. His insights offer valuable lessons for anyone looking to grow their email list and turn a newsletter into a sustainable business.

Final Notable Quote:
"If you speak loud enough to your core, everyone else will listen."
— CJ Gustafson [45:40]

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For more insights and to subscribe, visit Mostly Metrics or follow CJ Gustafson across his media platforms.

Transcript

[CJ Gustafson]

When you did the Growth in Reverse write up on me, I was like, I made it. I peaked. You either die in newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. If somebody told me two years ago that like, a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, bullshit. People are always looking for great content, and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so. And they may even pay you.

[Chanel]

Cj, this a long time coming. I know we met at the newsletter conference a couple years ago, and I've been following your. Your newsletter for a while now. Wrote a deep dive on you earlier this year and just really enjoyed the whole process of getting to learn more about your business, your newsletter, everything. So excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming.

[CJ Gustafson]

This is a total trip because I've been reading Growth in Reverse, like, for years and years because, like, I'm. I'm like, obsessive compulsive with just, like, trying to find any edge. And then I've been listening to the podcast that you and Dylan have been doing for a while. So what do they say on sports radio? They're like, first time, long time.

[Dylan]

Yeah, yeah. Long time listener, first time caller. Yeah. That's awesome.

[Chanel]

Yeah, that's awesome. Do you want to give us, like, the quick, I don't know, 30 second backstory of, like, what you write about, how you got into this, that kind of thing?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah. So, didn't know this could be a career, but here we are. I'm CJ and I'm a tech CFO by trade. So I got my start coming out of college doing consulting for PwC. I kind of felt like a financial tourist there where I was popping in and out. And then I got the opportunity to work at a private equity company where, like, I was responsible for valuing, like, how much these things are worth. And that was like a true grind, like, hour wise and just learning, like, the hard skills that were required to do the math. And I think in both of those, I was probably like a B minus, if I'm being honest. Like, it looked cool on LinkedIn, but, like, I don't think I was totally that great at them. And. And I could have went to business school, but I was like, I kind of want to make money, so I started working at tech startups. And it's funny because, like, nobody in college tells you that that's even, like, a viable career to be the one who, like, Budgets, I thought, like, to work in tech, I had to either code, which I don't know how to do, or sell, which I'm terrified of doing. And like, I found my product market fit with helping to like, allocate the resources of like, this is how much we need to sell, this is how many people we can hire. And so like, I got my come up with doing what they call financial planning and analysis. And that eventually led to me becoming a cfo. And this whole time I was terrified of not remembering like the playbook that I was learning or I call it earning because, like, you're, you're on the ground, you're getting exposed to these like, secrets of running a company and making it work. So I started a newsletter called Mostly Metrics. And it had many iterations, some of which are kind of embarrassing to look back on. But that eventually led to me having a pretty sizable following on Substack where I write for mainly CFOs, aspiring CFOs. And I kind of look at it like anyone who's obsessed with business and how to make your operations more profitable, and then you either die a newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. And that led to me starting the Run the Numbers podcast, where it's kind of like mostly metrics, but an audio form. And I interview a lot of world class CFOs and investors.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And for people who are thinking like, oh man, finance, like CFO, like, that's not my wheelhouse. CJ's content is so good. Like, the dad jokes alone would keep me reading. Like, I don't understand anything you write about. But then I'm like dog pics and dad jokes and memes, like, I'm here for it. So I really love the, the comedy you add into there.

[CJ Gustafson]

Say you, you come for the gifts and then you stay for like the CAC payback calculation.

[Dylan]

That's what I always stick around for.

[Chanel]

That's amazing.

[Dylan]

I think my first introduction to your newsletter was Chanel when she was kind of prepping for her deep dive. She shared like your welcome email, I believe it was. And you had like, you know, the Miller Time beer flying across and it was just like, okay, this vibe, this is a vibe I can, I can dig. Like, this is, this is fun, A lot of fun. Different than what I would expect from a newsletter from a cfo, for sure. So like, where did that all come from? Like that whole vibe and ethos and like, you know, Miller Time angle? I guess.

[CJ Gustafson]

So first of all, I love Miller Light. I don't know why they haven't sponsored my podcast yet. I was. I was obsessed with Bill Simmons growing up. I still am, back when he was writing Grantland. And so for those who don't know, it's kind of like the combination of sports and pop culture. And I always thought like, oh, it'd be so cool if somebody could do something similar, but for business and to have more personality injected into it. And what resonated with me is he made it cool to be, like a fan of what you were writing about. Like, a lot of the sports writers back then, they covered it from like this like, really grumpy angle of like, oh, I can't, like, enjoy what I'm doing. I'm like, dude, you have the best job in the world. Why, why wouldn't you enjoy that? And so I kind of wanted to take that to finance. And I slowly discovered that, like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of really shitty business content online that, like, was written by AI before AI even existed, where it's basically just like this drivel of just like, I don't know, it's very sterile. It's not. It's not much of an on ramp to make somebody want to continue reading. And a lot of times they make it sound more complicated than it actually is. And that's like a flaw with the finance world where people have like this scarcity complex of like, oh, there's not enough to go around. So I'm going to make it sound really complicated so other people can't. Can understand. And what I found is like, I don't know, I never really totally fit the stereotype. I think for a CFO who wears like a belt and suspenders to work. And then I just kept leaning into. I wouldn't call it being unhinged, but like, just my own personality quirks. And I think people started to say, oh, it's kind of like I'm almost hanging out with CJ whenever I read the newsletter. And like, I see him as a real person and he's not saying that he knows everything. And so over time, like, that just. It was odd that people were getting back to me more about, like, me being a person than what I was talking about. And I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna. I think like, Sam Parr has the phrase, like, let your freak flag fly. And it's not like I was trying to be weird or anything. I'm just like, oh, just be willing to Talk about things that are interesting to you alongside things that you study pretty seriously and want to get right. And like, you. You take that part seriously. But, like, there's no reason to not have fun with it and inject some, like, human into it.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I think a lot of people will stray away from that and just try and go the super serious route. Cause they're scared to, like, let their weirdness show, if you will. So I really appreciate that in your writing.

[Dylan]

I think it's like a USP that more and more people are gonna have to kind of adopt. Just, like so much out there is Googleable or AI able. That content is kind of like this commodity. And so when you do stuff like, you know, have your awesome personality vibe freak flag in your newsletter, where you're like, trying to get Miller to sponsor your newsletter by throwing memes and gifs in it, like, that's cool and that's fun and that's interesting. And then you can back it up with, like, the actual information that people really want. But they're going to. They're going to stay. I think they'll. In some ways they'll come for that information, but they'll stay for your personality to some degree and for. For your humor and all that sort of thing.

[CJ Gustafson]

And I look at it like a competitive moat in a lot of ways. Like, you may have the recipe, but you don't have the ingredients to copy it. Like, I don't have this. Oh, this person is like your competitor or something. It's like, well, they. They can't be me. And I'm not saying, like, I'm the best at anything. I'm just very different in the way that I approach it. And I think that's like a durable mode over time. Whereas if I was just reciting facts, like, anyone could do that, but it's like, can. Can you make it interesting? Do you. Have you actually seen every episode of the Wire and Breaking Bad and know how to, like, link that back to, like, telling a story about M and A. Like, I. I think that's what makes people also remember. I don't know. I think it's that Maya Angelou quote that people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how they made you feel. Like, I hope that people feel a different way when they read my stuff.

[Dylan]

I love that.

[Chanel]

Totally. Yeah, I definitely think people feel a different way because you could just look at some of the comments and it's like, look at this guy's post. Like, they're just. They love Your personality being injected into it. And I think it's just that you have.

[CJ Gustafson]

So there's been, like, this ongoing joke, and it got kind of out of hand. So just, like, for context, when I was trying to get it up and running, I said, hey, for every 1,000 new subscribers, I'll buy my dog Walter an ice cream. And then, like, gross started to take off, and I was buying him an ice cream like, every other week, and. But now I, like, we have to buy, like, hoodie cups, and he'll stand in front of the. The freezer every night and scratch the floor until we give him one. So it's actually evolved into he gets an ice cream every single night, which, like, is probably not great for his health, but I don't know.

[Chanel]

That's incredible. You even built, like, a website called, like, mostly ice cream.com for him, which doesn't work anymore from what I can see.

[CJ Gustafson]

But I need laps. I need to get it again. So nobody take it. But my friend Nicholas, who runs Mega Hit, designed that for me as a joke.

[Chanel]

So good.

[Dylan]

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, why don't we get into some numbers? Because I think we've been talking about, like, your vibe and everything, which we love, but let's talk about, like, some. Some numbers. So where's the newsletter at in terms of subscribers? And if you're willing to share a general number of. Cause you've got a paid version as well. Kind of a general idea of paid subscribers too. Curious to learn about that.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, I'm at 66,000 free today. And then as Substack shows, I have over a thousand paid. But, like, my model is actually almost 90% driven by AD revenue, which I think is different than a lot of people on Substack. And that also makes me wonder in the back of my head, like, if substack is the right place for me long term, now that I'm building not just the newsletter, but a whole media company with a podcast. And I launched a second newsletter as well. But I'm in a spot where my ICP, my ideal customer profile, CFOs, they have a lot of power in terms of what gets purchased. So not only do they get paid pretty well, but, like, they decide for the whole company what you're going to buy. And so a lot of my sponsors are selling things that are hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so if they just get one, one purchase from that, it makes sense. And so part of it's like just the structural elements of, like, who reads it what they buy, what they're interested in. But I kind of look at like the subscription as like it's very important. I mean that's how I pay the bills and stuff. But it's definitely secondary to the advertising revenue.

[Chanel]

That's so interesting. So with sponsorships, I know you have a couple of different ways you work with companies, but what is like, I don't know. I just love the way you're working with sponsors. I can see you on Twitter, you're commenting on their posts, you're retweeting things. And I'm sure that's not like included necessarily in the contract. No, maybe it is. I don't know know. But I just, I'm curious how you think about like brand partnerships and that kind of thing.

[CJ Gustafson]

Well, I think about it as a long term relationship where like I understand first of all the buying habits of CFOs. Like they have to trust you over time. And so like I want to trust my part, my brand partners who sponsor me and they. And it's like this mutual understanding that like it's a long term game that you want to play with long term people. It started at first that I had a full time job, so I didn't have time to go out and sell for every newsletter. So I just said, you know what, you have to buy on a quarterly basis. And that was more like I didn't have Matthew who runs my sales. He's amazing and handles all our partnerships. I didn't have him yet and I was still a full time cfo. So I'm like, in order for this to work and me not lose sight of my day job, like you gotta sign up for a quarterly package and that ended up working amazing for the sponsors because you gotta think like you're not in the market to buy an ERP every month. You're not gonna switch up your billing system or your payments processor. So what ended up happening is, is like after like two months they would start to see a bunch of deals fall because we had built this trust with the customer. And I think you need to hit a CFO not three times, not five times, not seven times, probably 13 times. They have to hear from you. And I call it like the ground game and the air game where like ground games and newsletter podcast is the air game. You got to surround them in a way where you build that trust over time just to be part of the consideration set when it is time to purchase. So it's kind of like you win the trust just to be known to them. And then can you win the sale after that? And so I've designed everything, quarterly minimums that you have to sign up for. But what ends up happening is, like, I haven't announced it yet, but I do have a big sponsor. We signed up for all of 2026 already, so we're halfway through 2024.

[Chanel]

Congrats.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah. And like, it's a bigger deal than I ever thought would be possible. So, like, I'm very thankful for that. But it's because they saw the results of sticking with me over time and, like, having enough inertia to, like, spread your surface area for good things to happen that aligns with the sales cycle of who you. Who you're going after.

[Dylan]

Whoa.

[Chanel]

Wow.

[Dylan]

That's crazy. So you probably have some follow up questions, Chanel, but I'm really curious, like, you publish, is it once a week?

[CJ Gustafson]

So I publish three times a week. Two are free and one is paid.

[Dylan]

So in terms of the two free newsletters, are those always sponsored with your quarterly sponsor?

[CJ Gustafson]

Correct.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[CJ Gustafson]

Okay, so I have two quarterly sponsors per quarter.

[Dylan]

Got it. Okay, so it might be like one weekly edition. Basically, they'll. They'll get a sponsorship per. Per quarter. Okay, cool. So you've got quarter. Oh, go ahead.

[CJ Gustafson]

Oh, no, I was just gonna say. So I come from the world of accounting and finance, where you think of everything on a quarterly basis anyway, so in my mind, like, everything's on a 13 week cycle. Doesn't matter. And so, like, you're signing up for 13 cents with that, or if you sign up for the podcast, which we can talk about later, you're signing up for 24 episodes because we do four per month. But like, the way that my mind works is like, what. How many, how many activations do you get in a quarterly cycle? And so for the newsletter, there are two sponsors who each get 13 cents or 26, because I'm sending 26 times per quarter. Can't believe I write that, Mike. That's crazy.

[Dylan]

So in terms of the ads, I think this is a really good reminder for a lot of people listening who are selling like one off newsletter ads. Guilty. Like, I've definitely done that. And shocker. They don't, you know, necessarily drive the results that the advertisers is hoping for. So I think it's a really good reminder. I don't know about for you, Chanel, but for me, like, you need to like, bundle these things up to like a minimum, probably of like a month, at least a monthly package. If you're doing like a Weekly send, for example, and a quarterly would be, would be even better. And we had Lex Roman who came on our, not our podcast, but came into our community a few months ago and she just sells six months packages because she's like, I just want, I just want to promote one person for six months and just like get them as much revenue and results as possible.

[Chanel]

Do you ever consider like, or do you, you probably consider this obviously, but incorporating like newsletter and podcasts into one package or do you keep them completely separate?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, more than half the partners will double up and do both for a quarter.

[Chanel]

And so you just discount it based on, you know, if they're incorporating newsletter.

[CJ Gustafson]

And podcast, I never discount anything. So it's actually like a principle that we go by. We know the value of the audience, so we never discount anything.

[Chanel]

Wow, that's pretty rare. I don't think I've heard that from many creators.

[CJ Gustafson]

Well, I'm also a cfo, so I understand that it's a slippery slope and people expect upon renewal for that discount to continue. So then you end up with an annuity stream. If you have a continuous partner that's at a smaller rate, what's better to do actually, and this is a tip for creators, is to give away like one send for free if you have to do it, rather than give a discount because one send, it goes away after and then you have a larger base to renew upon. But like discounts, like, you know, it's also like a branding thing. Like I actually price all of my stuff. I want 50% of the companies to say no just because it's too expensive.

[Dylan]

Right.

[CJ Gustafson]

And then if they ask for a discount, then I know that it's probably not the right relationship because I also know back of the envelope what their lifetime value to customer acquisition cost is and how to get there. So I think like, you have to study who you're working with and what their average transaction size is and then how long a customer sticks around. But like, my advice would be to like, just stick to a strategy because if you give that inch, then you end up with a basket of sponsors. And they all talk too. Like, they'll find out like, oh, you gave him a $5,000. Like, I want that too. Like, I just don't even want to play that game.

[Chanel]

Yeah, it's like if you give a mouse a cookie kind of situation.

[CJ Gustafson]

You.

[Dylan]

Set a precedent that you don't want.

[Chanel]

Totally.

[CJ Gustafson]

Like Scott Galloway said something that is stuck with me. He said, I have two prices, really expensive or free. And I like to Be generous when it comes to the free stuff, though. Like, I. There's like, Bre. Bre could text me right now and be like, dude, we just had like this product launch and like, we're. We're trying to talk about. I'd be like, no problem. I will talk about that today for you. Like, because I appreciate them as a partner long term. Or like, I'll jump in the comments and just like write funny stuff if their CFO post something for. For any of the companies that work with me or I'll try to shout them on. On podcasts. So I think you have to be generous from that perspective and be willing to be like a who will go the extra mile. But I don't think that means you have to compromise on price necessarily.

[Chanel]

On the topic of sponsors and brand deals, you implemented what I ended up calling, like, the triple stack approach, where you were working with brand partners, sponsors to essentially run paid guest posts. It's hard to, like, give a better name than that. It could be considered like, content licensing as well. But I really, really appreciate this approach. So you're essentially, like, getting paid by brands to republish your content that you've already written, and then they link back your stuff too. It's just like this huge, amazing flywheel that I can't stop talking about. I think I've sh. I think I've talked about this in the last two talks I've given on stage and on this podcast, like, every episode, because I'm just like, cj's brilliant. I just can't get over it.

[CJ Gustafson]

I had no idea what I was doing. I was making it up. I was like, I think this is a good idea. But, like, I didn't. I couldn't like, summarize what the strategy was. But, like, when you wrote it up, I was like, I did do that. Wow, that's cool.

[Chanel]

That's incredible.

[Dylan]

Well, let's talk through it for people who don't know, like, maybe explain it or. Sorry, Chanel, you were going to ask. Ask himself.

[Chanel]

No, no, no. That's exactly what I was going to say.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[CJ Gustafson]

Well, I think, like, what I noticed is a lot of the people who are creating the blog content for it could be like a credit card company, could be an FPA software and erp. There's somebody who has like a day job and this is usually just like one component of it, and they are always looking to fill those spots with, like, good content. And something I also noticed is a lot of people in those roles, they probably don't come from that background and they're not industry practitioners. Like, they weren't a CFO before. And so what I leaned into was providing content that they could use on their site. And at first it was free. There was one company that, like, I was just trying to grow the newsletter. I think it was at like 3,000 subscribers. And I was like, can I do a guest post for you? And they're like, yeah. I was like, are you really going to, you're really going to let me just be on your website? So I did a guest post and then I think I just got a little bit more ballsy where I was like, I'll do guest posts for you, but you got to pay me this amount. It'll be six posts. And by the way, I'm going to, I'm going to link back to your site and I'll repost it on my site too. So then we'll have these network effects, which also filled a spot for me that I had to sell, like fill anyway for that week. And so I think the lesson there is like, people are always looking for great content and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so and they may even pay you.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I love that. And you run a paid newsletter, so these people, you're getting paid by the brand. These people can come back to your site and then end up paying you again because they're going to sign up as a paid newsletter subscriber. I just, I love it. It's so good. Are you still doing a lot of those?

[CJ Gustafson]

I haven't been lately. Just because I got to a point where the packages for the newsletter were pretty substantial. And so I didn't want to cannibalize it with one offs, but it was a great way to get the flywheel going. That said, what I'm thinking about doing in the future is including interviews with CEOs of companies who sponsor my reports and saying, you can use our interview. I'll do a write up for you to use for your blog and you can repurpose it there. So, like, I'm still trying to find ways to get on people's website because it also gave me a ton of SEO cred that like, oh, you're searching for ERPs. And there are four companies in the category that all link back. Like, okay, that's a pretty good sign. So I'm trying to thread the needle here without. Without cannibalizing the main thing at this point.

[Chanel]

Yeah, that makes sense. As far as growth Goes other than like getting in front of other software companies and that kind of thing. Do you want to talk through, like, maybe how you got your first 1,000 subscribers? Like that strategy you did on Twitter?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, this is back when it still worked. So I made a list of 20 terms that were relevant to me. Like stuff that, like, if I saw it in my feed, I'd be like, oh, that, that like a stock based comp or like customer acquisition costs or net $10 people probably roll in their eyes. But like, the lesson is to find out which terms. And I say terms, but it's really like what virtual real estate you want to own. That's extremely specific. And so I made a list of 20 terms. And every night when me and my wife would watch tv, she would have on like Below Deck or Real Housewives or something, so she'd be happy. But like, I'd be on my phone and I'd be searching for those terms and, and then whenever somebody said something about it, I would try to write something insightful and be like, oh, and by the way, if, if you really want to nerd out, you should check out this post. And so I had corresponding posts to all 20 of those terms that allowed me to link back. So essentially like, even today there for certain terms, like if you search for like net dollar retention, there's a pretty good chance I will still come up because, like it got a lot of likes after that. But like, my whole thing was like, I want people to feel like I'm everywhere if they're searching for a certain topic. And like, I actually wasn't. I was only just on these extremely niche things. But like, I was. I wanted them to find like, I would be at the end of every single road for those terms no matter what.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I love that. Do you think that could still work on something like substack or reds or something?

[CJ Gustafson]

I don't know. I think, I think it can still work on Reddit if you don't get kicked out of the groups. I've been kicked out of most of them for posting there. But I think like you, you have to first find out where the people who are interested in your stuff go. So, like, notes like I enjoy sometimes, but then I realize when I look like less than, less than 1% of my audience actually uses the Substack app. So there aren't many CFOs who are just on their couch looking at notes that night. So that hasn't been too helpful for me. It's just people who write on substack talking about how much they love Substack.

[Chanel]

That's interesting. I didn't realize you could see that in the back end of your stats of, like, how many are using the app.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, every time I send out an email, it tells me where they came from. And the people who are reading on the Substack app, it's always less than 1%.

[Dylan]

Okay, so, Chanel, you'd have to actually send a newsletter from Substack to figure that out.

[Chanel]

Totally.

[Dylan]

So that's Twitter and you've been kicked out of Reddit. What about LinkedIn? Because I noticed you've got a decent following there as well. Like, over 17,000 followers on LinkedIn. What's been kind of your, I don't know, content strategy, for lack of a better term there?

[CJ Gustafson]

People love charts with logos on them. I'll leave it at that. That's something I learned, like, in the private equity world, that people love a good market map, so that helps. But honestly, like, Brian Belfor had a great post about this recently. Like, LinkedIn is also dried up to a certain extent where, like, they let all the creators in to make it, like, a spot that people would go for entertainment and less so, just like a static yellow pages or database. And then they kind of shut the door on them where, like, posts don't do as well anymore. So I still post there a lot. I think it's just to a more concentrated audience. But, like, I think leading with visuals helps. And anything that is either around M and A economic activity or compensation tends to do well. And that's usually. I think it's probably because people are a bit inherently selfish, so they always want to know, like, what's in it for me. So I think you get a. Whenever you post on LinkedIn, you have to think like the person reading it is probably reading it not for their employer, but for themselves. So what's in it for that person to either make them better at their job so they can make more money, or to present something that's like, an opportunity for them to upscale.

[Chanel]

So are you still super focused on growth at this point? Like, you're at 66,000. Is there, like, a new strategy you're working through, aside from just posting on LinkedIn and I think reposting to Twitter? I don't know, is there, like, a new strategy you're doing? Are you more focused on just, like, monetization, like, continuing to make your readers happy?

[CJ Gustafson]

I think I'm trying to find how to go deeper with certain readers because, like, there. There's someone out there who's crazy enough to pay me not $15 a month, but $30 a month. It's like, how do you find them and then what do you offer them? So what I've been trying to lean into is within the paid offering, do more reports that are like, more first party data. Because what I realize is now that I have a large enough following of like, people who actually have their hands on data, like, it's one thing to have like 100,000 marketers who read your newsletter. They probably don't have access to the financial data of the company. The people that read my newsletter have access to benchmarking results that I can use to create reports. So it's like the power of crowds. And so I've been leaning into that. But I mean, like, I always want to see it grow. I think I've also shifted a lot. Not shifted, but like, I was a full time CFO before, and now that I'm making content full time, I think like, the other half of like, my brain is focused on the podcast and trying to grow that. So I've been trying to grow the podcast prime more than the newsletter.

[Dylan]

Let's talk about the podcast.

[CJ Gustafson]

Sure.

[Dylan]

What's it called? When did you start it? Like, at what point in, like this content journey did you decide? Hey, I think a podcast is a great idea. Let's. Let's run with that.

[CJ Gustafson]

I've been doing the podcast for two years now. It's hilarious because if you talk to anyone in my family, they're like, we can't get a word out of you at the dinner table. And now you make a living doing a podcast. Well, it's kind of different talking about stuff that, like, I feel like I'm. I hope I'm uniquely qualified to speak to. So it's kind of like in my domain. But yeah, it, it was something that I kind of stumbled into and was very nervous about doing it first because I think with a newsletter you can hit send and it's just like you're writing, but like now it has your face and voice attached to it. And it's a different relationship I think you have. At the same time, I think it's actually a more valuable relationship because the people spend an hour with you and get to know you. So even though it's not as attributable probably to advertisers, it's like people are dedicating a full hour to hang out rather than five to 10 minutes for reading a newsletter. But I started it two years ago and now I'm 210 episodes in. If you want, I can talk about the process of, like, getting people to come on, if that's helpful.

[Dylan]

Let's hear it.

[CJ Gustafson]

So what nobody tells you about an interview podcast is the first 50 guests. It's like pulling teeth. Like, I would have had my dog on if he could talk as a guest, and that was, like, impossible. But luckily, like, I had some great sponsors from the newsletter who referred me to people. So, like, Brex hooked me up with their CFO at the time. And then I had some people who were reading the newsletter who said, oh, I'll come on and be your guest. And so what you find with a podcast is you climb this ladder of people where one person leads to another. And so the first 50 were extremely hard to get. On the next 50, I actually hired somebody to help me with Outbound, and I would pay him based on, like, 200 bucks or something, based on each person who would come onto the show. And so I would say for every, like, 300 people we outbounded, like, 10 would agree to come on. So that was just like a sheer numbers game of getting them to come. And so then probably, like, from 120 to 200, almost every guest has been inbound, which is crazy. So, like, it went from, like, this push to now a poll where I think I've had five of the last seven companies to IPO. Their CFOs come on, like, either before or after the IPO. So it becomes, like, a media thing to do.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[CJ Gustafson]

And that amazes me because, like, I just think back of how recent it was of how, like, I couldn't get anybody on to come and talk. But it's like, how do you get into the current of, like, being a spot that communication firms want to push people to? Because it goes back to what I was saying about, like, writing guest posts. They have a job to do. How can you make their job easier? And it has to be a great product that you're putting forward too. But, like, how can you be available to solve their problem? And what I found is that CFOs are typically looked at as, like, back office people who, like, they can't get out in front of a camera. And it's like, if you can create a welcoming environment to make them look like a thought leader. And you're doing the company a big favor, too.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[CJ Gustafson]

And so it's kind of like a win win for both of you. And a lot of the people who come on, they're at a point in their Career, I realized were like, they've done pretty well. It's probably more about legacy for them at that point. And so can you give them a platform to share and be looked at as like someone who helped the next generation of people coming up? So I think like, that subtle shift after like 50 to 100 people, like, help help my perspective of like, how to recruit people to come on, but also how to present it as an opportunity so you get inbound.

[Chanel]

Nice. Yeah, you mentioned the, the IPO thing. So when I did the deep dive a couple months ago, your top posts on Substack were showing like complete guides, masterclasses, like these really long form pieces about like one topic. But you went super deep and now I notice that you're shifting over to like these behind the IPO type pieces and those are starting to take over the top. The top pieces on your substack archive. So I think that's super interesting. Like, I don't know. I always talk about this because my first deep dive was on Mario Gabrielli. He used to do S1 report things. He would explain the S1s and it feels very similar. So I'm wondering if you took inspiration from that and you're like, hey, he's not doing it anymore. Let me kind of do something adjacent.

[CJ Gustafson]

He was doing it. Jamming Ball was doing it. Alex Clayton was doing it. And I was obsessed with all of them and I would read them, but it wasn't the way that I would write it. And they actually have probably more facts and figures in there. I write mine in a fashion that like you give to somebody who's not from a finance background. And somebody actually emailed me the other day and they said, dude, this S1 breakdown. I don't know if you're going to like this or not, but like, this is kind of like TikTok for finance. Like, I can just consume this. It's bite sized. I understand what's going on. I have a couple of facts to give to someone where I sound smarter and like, the gifts are really good too. So I just took it from a different angle and I was definitely inspired by them. I usually don't do anything that's current events because I want it to be Greenfield and you can come back to it. But for this I was like, I think I have an opinion and I can whip this up pretty fast because it's like what I used to do, like in my career. And those, those have easily become the most shared ones. Like yesterday I googled chime IPO and somehow I was like the second, second result to come up, which like blew my mind. Yeah.

[Chanel]

And I think in a way those are going to be evergreen, evergreen pieces because the way you wrote them and formatted them, you're explaining like how they got there also. So I think they're going to last down the road of like, hey, how do I ipo? Just like this company, like, and you have kind of a roadmap from those companies.

[CJ Gustafson]

The craziest part about that is I was doing the Klarna S1 write up and somebody from the information reached out and they're like, hey, can we talk to you about a quote? I was like, dude, I wrote this like on my couch after two beers.

[Chanel]

But yeah, sure, that's awesome.

[CJ Gustafson]

And now I'm friends with them and we text all the time about IPOs. But it just shows like that the Internet's like the last true democracy where if you write something people like that's useful. It doesn't matter if like you're a guy and you're addict. Real media outlets and I say real with quotes like the people will reach out and want to talk about it. And you can make relationships.

[Chanel]

I think that's, that's a great play. I really. That's awesome that they reach out. You never know where your next like relationship is going to come from online. So cool. Okay, so you kind of alluded to this, but I did see that you launched Looking for Leverage, like a second newsletter. What is. What's going on there? I want to hear all about that.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, so I went to this conference for CFOs and it was put on by a private equity company. And so like if people don't know venture capital is typically earlier on in a company's life cycle when they're growing like crazy and they're burning a bunch of cash. Some of the people that I really enjoy reading from like the VC background, like you could say Kyle Poyer, Growth Unhinged. That's really great. Kyle Harrison. Just all Kyle's Investing, I think 101 or 102. But what I noticed is like there are actually more private equity backed companies out there than venture capital backed companies. And these are companies that are usually larger later stage and are focused on profits. And so I was at this conference and there were 52 CFOs in there and they're talking about like completely different things. And I was like, there's nobody writing anything for these people. But it's such a big audience. Maybe it's not as sexy and it is in as many headlines, but like they consume content too. Some of them actually consume mostly metrics. What if I did like a adjacent newsletter that's like somewhat similar but, but different. And so it's, it's definitely a smaller audience, but I'm trying to actually like, my goal is to create with this one the most valuable audience per reader out there. So like I always thought, wouldn't it be cool if you had a newsletter and it was just 32 people, the 32 NFL owners. Like I want to create an audience where it's just executives from private equity backed companies. And I know already that on the list, like the list is smaller than 10,000 today, but I have 2,000 of the 9,000 PE backed CFOs on there. And so like, I think I'm on my way to creating a really valuable list. And I, and I enjoy writing about that content too because I feel like it's not well covered. So it's kind of like how can you take something that you started and then niche down even further? And what's interesting about that is like in terms of monetizing it, sponsors look at that as even more valuable on a per sponsor basis because you're telling them that I brought you further, even down the funnel than the people you wanted to reach before.

[Dylan]

Yeah, you've like amassed like their ideal target market all like in one audience. And it's like these people have money, make decisions and can, can be your customer. So that's smart.

[Chanel]

How are you writing two newsletters?

[Dylan]

Yeah, actually that's a great question. And a podcast.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, that's my competitive advantage though. Like people I don't know, how do people go to work and sit at a desk for 10 hours? It's just what I do now. And it becomes just like the lens that you see the world through. So like I was writing looking for leverage right before I jumped on this. It becomes just like a rhythm that you get into. I do try to bank a lot of stuff where I'll write it and then I'll keep it there on the shelf for later. I have so many, mostly metrics. I probably have over 70 pieces that are 80% done. And so when I can't think of anything, I'll go back and just finish something new. But like my goal every day is to write something or podcast something before lunchtime every day just to check that box and then go on with the rest of the day. But like something I took from Lenny Rachitzki is he said, I don't take meetings before like 2pm or something. So I don't take anything except for this podcast which we're recording. I don't take anything until 1pm Eastern. Now I don't do any meetings at all because like nobody's going to want to meet with me after 1pm if my writing and my podcasting sucks. That's what I real so like I have to, I have to take care of the main thing first.

[Chanel]

I love that.

[Dylan]

That is smart.

[Chanel]

Feel very honored to be in the small group of people who you will talk to before 1:00pm yes.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, I want to pick up the phone from my mom before 1pm oh geez.

[Dylan]

Sorry Mom.

[Chanel]

It's great. Yeah. Well, okay, so you have all these pieces of content. I'm curious, like you've talked about this before of like you will listen to other podcasts in the space and like through just conversations on the podcast that you run, you come up with topics to write about. So is that still your like how you're coming up with topic ideas or are you using other strategies?

[CJ Gustafson]

As much as I hate hearing my own voice, I take my dog for a walk every morning and I know that like my podcast drops on Monday and Thursday. So I'll listen to that episode while I walk them and hopefully I come up with one idea. And then when I get back to my desk, I pull up the transcript. So I pay my producer a little bit extra to have like a really rock solid transcript that I can go into and try to pick out quotes that support what I'm doing. And then what I did is I created a GPT by uploading over 200 transcripts. So I can just say like, have I talked to anybody about roll up strategies in private equity? I'd be like, yeah, you talk to this person, this person, this person. It's like, okay, now I have enough. And so what I've found is like if I can think of the title for a piece and the title usually just starts with listening to a podcast that either I've done or someone that I follow, like I can write the rest. Then it's just finding supporting evidence and layering it on. But it's like, then I'm off to the races.

[Chanel]

That's super smart. Yeah, it's always weird hearing your voice on like another podcast or even your own. I might have to try that.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, I also listened to it on 1.3x. Some people are crazy. Listen to it on like 2x. But I think that helps me just like helps me so my mind doesn't drift as much in between people talking. I gotta like keep the cadence up a bit while I'm listening. I don't know if anybody cares about that comment.

[Chanel]

I do the same exact thing.

[Dylan]

I can't listen to anything under 1.5. Just cuz I, I find like, I'm just like my mind drifts and I start getting bored or distracted. It's like that I kind of, I don't know, I need like the fast, faster speed for some reason.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, I mean the inertia still is real though when it comes to like sitting down and writing something. I think when I had a full time job it was like any spare second I would just be like, open my computer and try to write something. Now that I have a little more leadway sometimes like I will drift a little bit. I'll be like, you know what, I will make myself some scrambled eggs this morning for start. But yeah, that's life.

[Dylan]

Now you mentioned the when you had a job. So because you were for a period of time running mostly metrics and had full time job as a cfo, at what point we were like, okay, let's do this content thing full time.

[CJ Gustafson]

So I don't know if I should say this. I don't work there anymore. During the last year that I had a CFO job, I was making a lot more money doing my newsletter and podcast than I was full time being a cfo. But like, what was important to me is that I had the credibility of being a cfo. And I proved that I wasn't like some dilettante who's just acting like I knew something. And so I really wanted to be able to say that I was a cfo, I raised money and I sold a company because a lot of people have raised money. There are not a lot of people who have sold the company. It's like maybe 10% or less of that. And so we finally sold the company in January and that was a great outcome for all our investors. It was nice for me, like everybody likes getting money, but like for me it was like, just prove to your readers and yourself that you know your shit and that you're a credible person and like have had success before you did this. And so that was really important to me. And so then I made the jump after, like making sure they had everything they needed. But like I, I was pretty clear that I was firing myself once it was over.

[Dylan]

Nice.

[Chanel]

Are you finding that like having more time throughout the day is like hurting your productivity or are you actually just getting more stuff Done.

[CJ Gustafson]

I think it's both. People are like, oh, it must be nice to not have a boss. It must be nice to run your own company. You can do whatever you want any hour. And it's like, no, no. No boss could ever be as hard on me as I am on me. Like, no one says meaner things to CJ than CJ says to himself about, like, getting stuff done. So from that perspective, I think I just feel like I'm always on the clock. I am definitely at my computer a lot less, though. I think I'm only at my computer typing or doing some sort of podcast thing. Max, five hours a day, which is cool because, like, I can go and drive my daughter to. We've been doing karate, which is hilarious. And it's fun because, like, I love that stuff. I can go do that some days. But I'm thinking about what I'm writing about next. During the car ride, I'm thinking about what ad read I need to get from sponsors. So it's kind of like if you work for yourself, you never work a day, but you never get a day off either.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I relate to that. Even when you're off, you're still thinking about everything.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah. And that's the part that I've had to try to turn off more. I've also tried to, like, instill a couple habits where, like, I try most days, like, leave my phone upstairs once I'm, like, going down for dinner or something. But, like, if you don't have a commute either, it's kind of like, how do you separate the work life from the home life? I'm interested to see. We're going on vacation next week. How much I can truly, like, stop and unplug for a while.

[Chanel]

Nice. Well, good luck. I hope that works out for you.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

I've got one more question, because, cj, you write about a lot about metrics. What is it? What are the main metrics you look for when it comes to your newsletter and, like, signs that things are going right or wrong? Or is there, like, is there one kind of crown jewel of a metric that you. That you kind of value above all else?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, it's an. It's not even really a metric.

[Chanel]

It's.

[CJ Gustafson]

Well, I guess it is. It's how many people stopped and wrote me a reply, good, bad, or indifferent. If you wrote me an email back to my email, that means, like, I hit a chord to me. Like, if I write something and it gets, like, 58 likes or something on Substack, that's But, like, nobody says anything and nobody comments like that. That's so empty to me because once again, like, I was obsessed with the likes for a while because I was like, oh, that's the number of people who are very quickly actively engaging with it. And then I discovered less than 1% of the people had the app or like, you had to be logged in in order to like it. So I was like, okay, that's more just in my end substacks algorithm versus reaching my core audience when they need it. It's when somebody writes back to me and says, like, dude, I was just talking about my. To my boss about this the other day. Or, this helped me look really smart in front of someone. Or like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Like, I can't believe you think that. Like, that's when I know. That's when I know that it hit.

[Dylan]

That's awesome. We've. We've had that response before, right, Chanel? I think that's one of your. Even one of your favorite metrics, too.

[Chanel]

Yeah, that's my favorite one is just, like, how many replies are you getting? Because it's just like, it is the crown jewel. Like, if people are replying to your email, you definitely made them think, you made them learn something, and they're just, like, really excited to keep reading.

[Dylan]

So totally you sparked some emotion. And it's not just apathetic readers, which is very, very important.

[CJ Gustafson]

And people are busy. Like, think how many emails you reply to that, like, weren't specifically, like, just for you. Like, it has to be pretty great if you're going to take time out of your day and say something.

[Chanel]

It's not very often.

[Dylan]

No. I think we should all reply to more newsletters.

[CJ Gustafson]

I'm curious.

[Chanel]

Okay, so on the topic of reply. So I love the concept of insanely valuable content, obviously, based on, like, your personality being injected into your content and all of that. I'm curious how you think about making your content more valuable for readers. Like, what. What is the bar that you have for yourself for any specific piece of content?

[CJ Gustafson]

I think the bar is if I can write something. And I'm like, you're going to understand this. Like, it's like the. If you know, then you know, like, certain things. Like, I'll give you an example. Like, for people who plan FP and A budgets, there's, like, a joke that, like, 80% of any learning and development budget at any company goes, like, completely unused. So that's like, your buffer. And so, like, if you're writing something and like, you find a way to put an if you know, then you know in there and they're like, oh, yes, shit. I. I didn't think of that. Like, that's totally true. That's like, to me, something that's valuable because it's on the job, stuff that, like, if you didn't work in that position, you would never know that. That's like an earned secret. So when I read through something, I, I try to also think about it like, which of my three audience types is this for? And I recently discovered there's a fourth which I can hit on. But, like, is this for the person who's the aspiring cfo, who's truly just trying to get better at their job today, and then they also want to signal to their boss and forward it, look how smart I am. I was reading this and found something out. Is it for the CFO is in a seat who forwards it to their team and says, hey, we should add this to the board deck next time? Or is it for the investor who's trying to add value and forwards it to their CFO and says, like, hey, have you ever thought about it this way? Blah, blah, blah, blah. You should read this then. The fourth person that I found is there are a lot of CEOs. I found that my audience, I just did A poll is 15% CEOs, which I didn't know. And that's because they're trying to get smarter on their business and figure out which metrics to talk about. But, like, I, I always try to think, like, hopefully this is useful to everybody, but, like, ideally there's one person in here who gets that, like, oh, shit. Like, that is what I needed today in order to do my job better.

[Chanel]

Yeah. It's like Akash Gupta always talks about the optimizing for the internal share. And it sounds like that's exactly what you're kind of hitting on with your different segments of your audience. Like, they're all going to share it with someone. It's like, which person am I targeting?

[CJ Gustafson]

Exactly. Make it easy for them to share and make it easy for them to look smart by sharing it. Because people like to signal that too. Because people used to always forward me, like, jamming balls newsletter clouded judgment with, like, market multiples. And I was like, I can tell you're interested in the multiples, but you also just want to show me that, like, you were reading this not academic, but like, super smart economic piece about something too. I was like, what if I could do that? What if I could be the person that they forward because they want to look good.

[Dylan]

Yeah, it's kind of like virtue signaling, but it's like. It's like professional signaling.

[CJ Gustafson]

It totally is.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so.

[Chanel]

Amazing. I don't know if Dylan has any more questions. I have one more question that I'm just curious. I want to get you to explain more about. You posted something recently about niches are larger than you think. Niches, niches, whatever. And you were kind of just giving an update of how your podcast is doing and how it was doing better than you had hoped, and you felt like you hit this inflection point, but you kind of went on to say that, like, in the beginning, you probably thought you were just writing for CFOs, and now you, like, you were just alluding to. You have these different buckets of people on there. I mean, I googled how many CFOs are there in the US and there's like, 130,000 or something. Somebody might look at your newsletter and be like, well, he's already, like, halfway to, you know, hitting the full TAM of that. That audience. But I think you said that was only, like, 30% of your audience is CFOs, and the rest are like these other buckets. Do you want to talk more about, like, how you were thinking about this?

[CJ Gustafson]

And, like, it actually makes me feel better that my TAM might be larger than I thought. Yeah, I'm only. I'm less than 20% penetrated there. It was a quote that hit me. It was like, if you speak loud enough to your core, everyone else will listen. And everybody, like, wants to be a part of a club. Everybody wants to be in the know. And if you're talking about something that is, like, really engaging to the core people, they're like, wow, I want to have that energy, too. I want to learn about that and feel smart. Then I think other people get pulled into the fold at the end of the day. Like, I'm talking about running a better business. Yes, it's written primarily from the perspective of a cfo. But a lot of people out there, regardless of their role, want to be successful in, like, making their company grow, making their company profitable, like, helping their employees buy houses because, like, things went well or educating people on, like, stock options. So I think, like, you focus on this one niche, and then they share it with other people who are interested. And, like, the most amazing thing about the podcast is, like, it went from like, 5,000 listens a month to then I was stuck at 10,000 for a while, then I was stuck at 20,000 for a while, and then it just doubled to 40, and then it doubled to. Then it went to like 50. It's at like 55,000amonth now, which, like, that is not Joe Rogan. But, like, if somebody told me two years ago that, like, a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, you're bullshit. Like, there's not enough people who are possibly interested in that. But what you find are, like, they're, at the end of the day, people. People are eager to learn and get better at things.

[Dylan]

What do you attribute that growth to?

[CJ Gustafson]

Consistency. I think leveling up, like, and getting better and better guests and climbing that ladder helps. And I haven't paid for any of the growth it's all been. The biggest growth hack for a podcast is getting a guest to share it after, because they likely have people who are like them in their network who would be interested in it. So for the CFOs that I interview, they'll have hundreds of CFOs, their acquaintances with or in their network, and if they share it, it helps. But I think the consistency over time. I have done a couple of giveaways. I don't think they've really worked, but it's been fun. Just like, hey, share this with the Slack group. I'll give you a Yeti mug or a hat. And for me, that's just fun because I know that if you're doing that, you actually, like, really, really like my stuff. And I'm like, I want to give you something to, like, say thank you. So that part's been cool.

[Dylan]

I feel like there's an opportunity to have, like, branded, mostly metrics, swag or run the numbers. Swag.

[Chanel]

Yeah, just like a picture with your dog on it.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah. Yeah, I just, I. I'm into running and so I. There's a cool running hat brand called Ciale in Canada, and so I splurged and bought like 50 run the numbers hats from them.

[Dylan]

Oh, that's sweet. That is sweet.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, I'll send you. I'll send you each one.

[Chanel]

Nice.

[Dylan]

That would be amazing. I would wear it running, I think Bushnell both and I both run. So.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

I don't usually wear hats, but I'll wear a hat. Take a picture for you.

[Dylan]

Wear that.

[CJ Gustafson]

It's a nice hat. You'll wear the hat?

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

That's awesome. Well, cool, I guess. So what. What does this look like now? Like, you're starting another newsletter. You have a podcast. Like, what does, I don't know, the next three years look like for mostly media?

[CJ Gustafson]

Well, I'm also incubating, like, a data and benchmarking service in the background, because I've always thought that, like, it can be media in the front, like a product in the back of some way, the medium. Yeah, it's the mullet. Who wrote about that? Was it Mario?

[Chanel]

I have no idea. I know.

[Dylan]

Just the way you said it made it sound very mullety.

[CJ Gustafson]

That's because it is. It's supposed to be like, that party in the front, business in the back.

[Dylan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[CJ Gustafson]

And, like, what I noticed working for Marketplace businesses in particular as a cfo, that, like, once you get to a certain size, you have the ability to build things that maybe don't have, like, a bunch of technical risks to them. Like, I'm not trying to, like, create a rocket ship or anything, but I have enough people to weigh in that it creates data that's statistically significant, and you can't get it unless you have 66,000 readers. And so that's what I'm trying to lean into now. And so that's been fun. I mean, like, it's now not just mostly metrics, it's mostly media. And I have two newsletters, a podcast. It's kind of like, whatever's interesting to me, I feel like, is a good lens of what's interesting to my audience. And a lot of companies go out and they try to figure out, how do we create this product? Okay, we created. Now let's go search for customers. I look at it like, well, I already have the customers. Let me just figure out what they want, and I'll build them that. So it's just like the whole business equation in reverse. But at the same time, like, the media is still the main product. None of that's possible without the other stuff. So. So continuing to create better and better stuff. And I just upgraded the studio, which is nice. I don't look like a boomer on, like, an Android trying to do a podcast anymore. So, like, just trying to professionalize it a bit more.

[Dylan]

And how big is your team? Because you've talked about somebody who's managing some sales stuff for you, but, like, somebody listening here would be like, you can't possibly be doing all of this on your own. So, like, do you have contractors w two employees, or how is it all set up and how big is it all contractors today?

[CJ Gustafson]

I'm the only one that does the Content. So I do all the content. I don't have any writers or anything like that. Producer, sales, accounting help and a va.

[Dylan]

It's manageable.

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[CJ Gustafson]

And my wife is awesome because she comes from a marketing background and she helps me with event stuff. So she'll help me get people to the events, book the venues and stuff. So.

[Chanel]

Yeah, we didn't even talk about that. You're doing all these dinners now with CFOs?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, we've done like 10 or 12 of them, which has been nice.

[Chanel]

Crazy. That's awesome.

[Dylan]

Are those invite only?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yes. So I get like 20 to 30 CFOs in a room and then we sell four of the seats to sponsors to be there as well. So it's cool to meet people that read it. They get a free gourmet five star chef cooking for them, which is cool. And then like, I'm not like trying to sell them anything either. So it's just like a cool hang. And then the sponsors who are there, they're all sponsors. Like what I try to do with that because like it's extremely valuable to get somebody in person. You have to sponsor either the newsletter or the podcast in order to get access to the events within. We call it the ecosystem. And so that's worked really well too where it's like you also get these in person touch points with people. It's really hard to get a CFO to go to something anyway. So like they're, they're totally excited for.

[Chanel]

That and they get to talk about numbers and nerdy stuff. So I'm sure that's fun.

[CJ Gustafson]

What's hilarious is like, we don't talk too much about business. It's just, it's just people being people. Like. Yeah, and that's, I think, like, honestly that's also what the sponsors understand about coming. Like C folks just like want someone they can trust who's going to be there when they call. And like there's a lot of tech out there. There are a lot of bankers out there. It's like, how do you build a relationship with somebody if like you're a good hangover dinner, like they're going to talk to you after that. So it's been fun.

[Chanel]

That's awesome.

[Dylan]

That's smart. I like that.

[Chanel]

Well, I think we're coming up here on the hour, so I just want to be mindful of that. But I really appreciate you coming on this, the show to cj. This is awesome. It's been a long time coming. I know, like I said, but I.

[CJ Gustafson]

Feel like, I made it. When you did the Growth in Reverse write up on me, I was like, I made it. This is. I peaked. I'm there. I know.

[Chanel]

I remember along the way, you kept tagging me. You're like, chanel, I hit 30,000. Save this.

[CJ Gustafson]

And then you're like, I don't have to write about anyone who's not at 50 yet. I'm like, I'm at, like, 60 now. And you got to do it. Like, I held out this long.

[Chanel]

That's great. I love it.

[Dylan]

That is awesome.

[Chanel]

Well, thanks for coming on. If people want to go check out your stuff, obviously, mostly metrics.com, and then you're just CJ Gustafson everywhere, right?

[CJ Gustafson]

Yeah, it's me.

[Chanel]

Nice.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think people should sign up for your newsletter just for the onboarding experience alone. So, like, see what CJ's from the paid newsletter.

[Chanel]

So you got to pay.

[Dylan]

Well, hey there. We're gonna get you some more paid subscribers, cj. So go sign up for his paid.

[CJ Gustafson]

Easter eggs in that paid sign up out.

[Dylan]

Yeah, there you go.

[Chanel]

Love it. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on, cj.