← Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
Newsletter Coaching Session: Scaling Deep Dives Into a Newsletter Growth Engine
00:42:30
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- [00:00]
Chanel
You could get thousands, like, fast.
- [00:02]
Matt Jura
I'm trying not to be algorithm driven, but I also know that's part of the game.
- [00:05]
Chanel
100,000 people on their email list. He essentially gets some of those subscribers, and now they're actually paying him to write those articles.
- [00:11]
Unknown Host
Let's break this down and make this like a brainstorm session of how we could help you. Because I think your content's such good quality and you do such a great job on the deep dives. I'm like, you should have more. You should have more subscribers. More people should see this stuff.
- [00:21]
Matt Jura
So I'd love you both your thoughts on this.
- [00:23]
Unknown Host
Okay. All right. So we are here at the KIT Studios in Boise with our good friend Matt Jura. Matt, how you doing?
- [00:37]
Matt Jura
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
- [00:39]
Unknown Host
Our pleasure. Our pleasure.
- [00:41]
Chanel
Excited to have you here.
- [00:42]
Matt Jura
Yeah. This is. Proud to be the first in person guest. Yes.
- [00:46]
Chanel
You get to wear that hat, that honor.
- [00:48]
Matt Jura
I'll get a sticker.
- [00:51]
Unknown Host
And we're all here because craft and commerce, right?
- [00:54]
Chanel
Yep.
- [00:54]
Unknown Host
Matt, you've been to craft of commerce before?
- [00:56]
Matt Jura
This is my fourth. Fourth time.
- [00:59]
Chanel
Wow, you have me beat.
- [01:00]
Unknown Host
I've only been three and this, I'm a crafting commerce virgin. So this is my. This is my coming out party, I guess.
- [01:07]
Chanel
Nice.
- [01:07]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [01:09]
Unknown Host
Matt, you've got. You've got a newsletter. You create awesome content. We thought this would be fun to kind of talk through what you do and you share us kind of your story of how you got to where you are and what you create. So why don't you give us like a quick. A quick Ish rundown of what you write and maybe why you started it. Yeah.
- [01:28]
Matt Jura
So I. I read a newsletter and podcast about how bootstrap Companies go from 0 to 250k in annual revenue. It's really been a kind of a journey of like, originally when I first started entrepreneurship, it was like, bootstrap companies are like, cute little Main street, like, why do they exist? Kind of deal. I was very much on, like, the tech track and ran a company called Fathom. We made underwater drones, did the whole tech journey, raised money, went through tech stars like Pitched Day and John from Shark Tank, like, I've lived it. And I was like, why did we just do all of this? And, like, all the work that I was doing, like, raising money, I'm like, this is silly. And so then, like, we shut that down about six years ago now. But then it's been like, okay, like, what types of businesses are actually, like, beneficial to the world? Like, I don't think we need another unicorn, which that might be a hot take. And so, like, that's where I was like. And then I see, I came to Craftman Commerce four years ago and I was like, how do we build more kits? Because, like, fully bootstrapped. Like, the team wasn't stressed. I'm like, you're like a startup, but not. And you're not like, you're like a healthy stressed. And I was like, I was always, like, stressed out of my mind. And so, like, that's where, like, a lot of, like, this came about in the last, like, three years. Like, I was like, doing note code tools for a little bit, but then someone here at Craftman Commerce three years ago was like, do you really want me working with people who don't know how to use a PDF, like, open a PDF, right? I was like, absolutely not. Like, that's my mother. I don't want to know.
- [02:51]
Chanel
Sorry, Mom.
- [02:52]
Matt Jura
Yeah, I love you, but don't want to, like, I don't want to be the, you know, the geek squad of all this stuff. So it just kind of transformed. And then last year I was here and I was like, I want to do like, Bootstrapped, which I was, like, hesitant to be. Like, oh, this is the place I didn't want to be. At least that's what I originally thought. But then like, seeing Kit, seeing other people do, like, what you're. You've been doing and all that stuff, and I was like, no, let's go into some bootstrapped companies that this is actually maybe the future. And then Sol Carta's data too, about how bootstrapping is becoming a bigger and bigger thing, and the AI people being able to code whatever they want. So that's where I think a lot of the places come into play. And the more I get into doing deep dives on how these companies build, the more I'm convinced this is the way it should be.
- [03:36]
Chanel
That's awesome. So underwater drones.
- [03:40]
Unknown Host
VC funded, kind of VC funded, kind of VC funded as.
- [03:44]
Matt Jura
You look at it.
- [03:44]
Unknown Host
Okay. Funded, Funded. Okay.
- [03:47]
Matt Jura
We funded by techstars, which I guess is a vc, but like, I consider them more of like an angel investor. But anyways, that's semantics. So, yeah, we made underwater drones. We are known like, we were like, we just like, basically the infinite, like, drones at the time was 2015. Like, so they were just kind of coming online and like, they were the big thing. And then I was living with a couple of guys and they're like, okay, like, what if we instead of it in the air. Like, could you go underwater? Because it was like, they, like, being. I'm originally from Michigan, so the whole thing was like, oh, could we go explore the Great Lakes? Or, like, all the little lakes in Michigan, which, like, probably have tons of, like, little, you know, secrets and histories and shipwrecks, all that kind of stuff. And we're like, yeah, let's see what happens. Because no one else was really in the market. And then we were dumb enough. Like, we. This is, like, the dumbest startup if you really look at it. Like, bunch of college students, hardware and consumer product and no recurring revenue. Like, we are the epitome of, like, the worst startup idea you've ever heard. And we actually, like, got pretty far for what we did.
- [04:46]
Unknown Host
Wow.
- [04:47]
Matt Jura
So we did, like, huge Kickstarter campaign and, like, actually shipped 600 units.
- [04:51]
Chanel
Nice.
- [04:52]
Unknown Host
Really?
- [04:52]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [04:53]
Unknown Host
So, I mean, that feels exciting and, like, a bit of a success to what happened, basically.
- [04:57]
Matt Jura
So, like, we got to the end of 2018, and we had just shipped and we were running out of money. But I was like, to our investors, like, I did, like, a monthly investor update. We're gonna take whatever funds we have left, all the resources we have. It was like. It was like October. I was like, we are gonna, like, just spend it all. Because if we can't sell during the holidays, like, what are we doing? And we did okay. Wasn't like, super thrilled, but it wasn't super awful. But then almost every single unit was coming back for different reasons. For technical reasons, like, oh, this one leaked. This one's got a badge, Whatever. Like, it was, like, wasn't on the manufacturer or anything like that. It was totally on us of, like, this bad design. Cause it's like, again, college students building.
- [05:39]
Unknown Host
And were you guys, like, engineers?
- [05:41]
Matt Jura
Most of the team was. I have a degree in chemistry, so, like, I know. And I've taken enough engineering courses to be dangerous.
- [05:47]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [05:48]
Matt Jura
But, like, if you asked me to build that drone, probably not.
- [05:50]
Unknown Host
And did you build that drone?
- [05:51]
Matt Jura
I did not.
- [05:52]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [05:53]
Matt Jura
Other people doing it.
- [05:54]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [05:54]
Matt Jura
I was on the business side of things and, like, learning all this stuff. But, like, oh, you have to do this with investors. Oh, you should actually build relationships first. Like.
- [06:01]
Chanel
And now you're working with Yale too, And you have been for a while.
- [06:05]
Matt Jura
Yeah. So ended up. Yeah. Shut down the startup, like, did, like, a free agency year is what I call it. Right after that, it was like, consulting. And on the side, found myself back at Yale. Cause I interned there to go through, like, their summer program at the time. In 2015. And then it's like morphed into like, yeah, now I lead student entrepreneurship at Yale essentially. And it's like a wild ride to see like be the person that's like making sure the food arrived at this program. And now it's like, oh, you lead the whole thing.
- [06:29]
Chanel
That's really cool.
- [06:30]
Unknown Host
That is cool. So now you are diving into how other bootstrappers are getting to that first 250k in revenue. So one of the first things I think of is why 250k?
- [06:40]
Matt Jura
250K. So it's really a big moment, I think so. One was like when I looked at all the research around like, okay, where like, like Kit has their creator like report they do every year and they mark 250k as this big number. And then if you look at other like industry reports, like 250 is always like a number. And I was like, why? And I started talking to founders and like, like started talking here at craft and Commerce and it was like, oh no. Like that's when things change. And I was like, why do things change? And one is because like your growth is different usually at 2:50. One is like your growth strategy. Like the way you can grow is way different. Right? Cause you're not like scrapping and clawing. Like there's has to be systems to get to 250. And then two is like you usually can't do it on your own at 250. Like sometimes these days maybe it's more acceptable. But like it's pretty rare when you can do it as a solo at 250 and above. So like team building is becoming a thing. Like it just all the numbers change. Things like the systems and like how you operate changes at 250 for most. So that's why we're at 250.
- [07:39]
Chanel
When did you start this whole newsletter? And now podcast, right?
- [07:43]
Matt Jura
Yeah, this was July of last year when I like did the first like kind of pilot, like let's see what happens.
- [07:49]
Chanel
Okay.
- [07:50]
Matt Jura
And I did it on Nathan, but not his kids story. Because I was like, I want to interview Nathan to get that one. Yeah, but like totally like nerd out Nathan. Like so hard. Like, like you do. And I was like, I feel like I can like hear Nathan in my head at this point. And yeah, like got really good reception from like people. Like it was like as texting people, I'm like, what do you think of this? And yeah, like now it's just like lots of good feedback and it just has kind of Snowballs for me.
- [08:15]
Chanel
Very cool. So less than a year in. Yeah, what are we, 11 months?
- [08:18]
Matt Jura
Something like that?
- [08:19]
Unknown Host
Yeah, about that.
- [08:20]
Chanel
And how many subscribers are you at? What are you. Yeah, you've had some changes happen recently too.
- [08:25]
Matt Jura
Yeah, quite a bit. As of 36 hours ago, the website's finally updated.
- [08:30]
Chanel
Yay. Okay, awesome.
- [08:31]
Unknown Host
So talk us through what you originally launched it as, like name wise and brand wise and where it's at now.
- [08:36]
Matt Jura
So the whole brand has been like, called Station. Because I've always thought about it as like a train station. Like I could build a lot of hubs and like, like there's a lot of like different brand plays off that, I think, but that doesn't really accurately say like, what this is for. And so lastly, three months, I was like, I got to rebrand, at least, like create a brand underneath that. And I was like, like, we, yeah, we've been talking. And then you said the quarter and I was like, darn it, that's it. And then like I started passing that around. They're like, yeah, that's it. Like it's simple and it's like super catchy. Like it just got a lot of things. And then the logo thing was like so easy because it was like, oh, just a pie chart and like a quarter. Nice. So that's all played out.
- [09:13]
Unknown Host
Nice.
- [09:13]
Matt Jura
And now if you were to join the quarter.com, it's all there 36 hours ago.
- [09:18]
Unknown Host
36 hours. It's exciting. Okay, so now walk us through. You've been doing this for 11 months. Maybe you talk to us a bit about your content because you take a really in depth approach, both in the written component, but you also go a layer up with the podcast. So what is like your typical deep dive kind of look like?
- [09:35]
Matt Jura
Yeah, so typically it is the normal structure of it is doing the story of the founder, so you have some context. It's also like you get little tidbits of like, oh, didn't even know there's been people. I'm like, I'm friends with you for the last decade. I didn't even know that was a thing.
- [09:49]
Unknown Host
Right.
- [09:49]
Matt Jura
And so getting that story. And then also I think there's so many unique tidbits I think that you pick up. So usually I try to do like their story and like one like kind of you think that's really unique to them. So there's one that's coming out of like, finally someone was talking about Blue Ocean strategy. So like, I'll talk about a little about that too. So like there's just, like, some concepts I'll kind of bake into them. And then the last half of it is the growth strategies. Like, how do they actually do it? Because, like, as you probably have seen, like, no one talks. Wants to. Like, I don't think it's intentional. They just don't really talk about, like, here's how I did it, or how I actually grew it, especially for bootstrap people, because they're just like, oh, no one cares about my story. Or, like, actually. Like, press isn't actually reaching out to them, they're reaching out. Like, if you're backed, then you can talk about it. And it's like, well, that's like 0.1% of all companies. So, like, me coming, like, I may be one of the first people that have actually asked, like, okay, how did you actually grow this? And you just get, like, this huge list of stuff. Or if it's, like, really simple and you're like, that's the whole thing. Like, yeah, so that's been, like, the. Yeah. So showing, like, growth strategies, so that way people can go implement them on their own, too.
- [10:53]
Unknown Host
Okay. And you are not. Because with Chanel's newsletter, she is doing a lot of just, like, total secondary research. Like, she's going through podcast episodes, articles, they've written, any. Anything she can dig up on the Wayback Machine, Right? Yeah, but you've taken more of a primary research approach where you're actually, like, interviewing these people, right?
- [11:12]
Matt Jura
Yeah, so I'll do a little bit, but not to the extent you do. And so, like, I'll research. I'll do the Wayback Machine, but, like, there's only so much you can get, I think, from a lot of these founders. So, like, if I'm in person, like, I now have, like, a mobile studio in my backpack.
- [11:26]
Unknown Host
Amazing.
- [11:26]
Matt Jura
And so I can go record with people in. And I'll do a little bit of. Especially if they're, like, a creator, which is, like, a really cool studio. I'll be like, we're recording virtually. I want to see your studio in all of this.
- [11:36]
Unknown Host
Nice.
- [11:37]
Matt Jura
So that's been super cool. So, yeah, I'll interview with them and just kind of, like, it's me, like, putting some of the pieces together. Because sometimes there's like, oh, like, I have this piece. But, like, how does this connect to so such and such.
- [11:47]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [11:49]
Matt Jura
And there's some stuff. I'm like, okay, I would have never found that. So that's been super cool. And there's definitely some bias. I know. Like. Like, You've been like, oh, I don't want to talk to people because of the bias piece. Because they're like, they have survivor's bias or all that stuff. There's some of that I have to, like, okay, there's like, I need to weed some of that out. But, like, yeah, that's me doing the interviews has been super cool. And being in spaces, I'm like, I never would have been in here.
- [12:13]
Chanel
That's awesome. So are you seeing that they're sharing your piece of content after you write it or after you publish it?
- [12:21]
Matt Jura
Yeah, a lot of them will, but it's been interesting because a lot of them, A person post them on their personal channels rather than their business ones. And it's interesting because, like, they. They're like, here's my story. Because a lot of their friends and family might not know their story.
- [12:34]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [12:35]
Matt Jura
Okay. And so that's been curious to see some of that. The interesting piece, too, is, like, not all of them. Not all of them have. Right. Like, the newsletters and things like that. They. A lot of them have, like, maybe a YouTube channel, or maybe they don't even have a social media presence. So, like, they will share it, but, like, it's been hit or miss of, like, actually if. If it's been helpful or not.
- [12:52]
Chanel
Very cool. And how many subscribers are you at today?
- [12:55]
Matt Jura
I'm at little at 1200.
- [12:57]
Chanel
1200. Okay. So small but mighty.
- [13:00]
Matt Jura
Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there.
- [13:01]
Chanel
And you. I think you started this as a YouTube channel first, right?
- [13:04]
Matt Jura
Yeah, it was more of, like, a YouTube channel. I wasn't gonna be a podcast. And then I asked everyone, including the newsletter, like, I was like, all right, is this a podcast? Just, like, really silly question.
- [13:14]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [13:15]
Matt Jura
I thought people would be, like, very mixed debate. It was like, clearly a podcast. Like, no one put, no, that was.
- [13:21]
Unknown Host
In the community when you asked that.
- [13:22]
Matt Jura
Or just the newsletter on LinkedIn and on my newsletter, and everyone put, yes. And I was like, oh, I need to go get this. A podcast feed.
- [13:30]
Unknown Host
So how does it change your approach? Because when you talked about YouTube and you talk about podcasts, and some people might be like, wasn't that the same thing? So how does that change your approach when you're doing the interviews and stuff?
- [13:40]
Matt Jura
Yeah, so. Because I've always seen it as, like, more of, like, a TV show type thing. Okay, yeah, like on YouTube. But I guess, like, podcasting is transferring to that a little bit because I'll do more like, like, their slides. There's me drawing in Some of them, like. Yeah, there's a lot of like the visual components to this. I try to show like the websites or like the B roll, all that kind of stuff, which you don't see in the podcast stuff. But I guess you do get majority of the content through just like listening to it. So I get why people think it's a podcast and like why that's a valuable thing. But definitely the best experience is through YouTube. Yeah.
- [14:12]
Unknown Host
So do you take just the audio basically of the YouTube video and turn that into.
- [14:15]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [14:15]
Unknown Host
Okay, so you're not doing a whole other take and. No, I guess this is a side project for you. So it's not exactly like you can spend every waking hour on it.
- [14:23]
Matt Jura
And so like there's been like small little tweaks. I'll be like, like subscribe at the end of the video, whatever. I'll be like scribes at the end of the episode and like these little things.
- [14:30]
Unknown Host
Interesting. So are you monetizing this or do you plan to? And if so, how?
- [14:35]
Matt Jura
It's a million dollar question.
- [14:36]
Unknown Host
Well, it could be.
- [14:37]
Matt Jura
It could be the million dollar question. Yeah. So right now it is not monetized.
- [14:42]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [14:42]
Matt Jura
I just have like a affiliate links which like pay for the software, interestingly enough. Nice. But yeah, ultimately the vision is to build like an incubator program so we can build from 0 to 250. And so what that looks like like TBD, but that's ultimately like, how do we help people go from 0 to 250 and build a really cool business? And if they go beyond 250, that's even better.
- [15:03]
Chanel
So when you think about the people you want to feature, are you. Obviously they've hit 250. Are you thinking about like software or media or like what kind of businesses are these?
- [15:13]
Matt Jura
Yeah, it's a little bit of. At least I'm trying to do. It's. It's so easy. Just like grab creators.
- [15:19]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [15:19]
Matt Jura
Because they're just like here. Yeah. And like those are friends and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, like, it's been so interesting because like a friend of mine does like, like the last deep dive I just did is like silk screen marketing and they like screen print, screen print T shirts and all this kind of stuff. I was like, I didn't know this is like such a, like robust system and like you could make 250k off this. Um, so there's some of that. The retail stuff has been super interesting because like I feel like they get to 250 so fast, but their Profitability is a lot different.
- [15:50]
Unknown Host
Right. So we're talking overall revenue when we're talking 250.
- [15:52]
Matt Jura
Yeah. So I don't even, like, ask for profit because it's like, such a touchy.
- [15:56]
Unknown Host
Touchy.
- [15:56]
Matt Jura
It's a touchy and like, all these different things. But, like, it's been interesting to see, like. Like, I did one in on a company that does, like, it's kind of like something like paint and sip. It's like candle making and sip. So that was like, super interesting to see. Like, okay, like, you're in a mall. Malls are supposedly dying, but, like, here you are, like, killing it. And then I did one. It's like, actually they shut down and so talking about that story too. Oh, okay. And then, yeah, there's like, creators too, like Chris and Sarah. They're like a travel vloggers. Like, how do you make money traveling?
- [16:24]
Unknown Host
And yeah, I think what I find really alluring to your content is it's not just always the exact same kind of Persona and story. It's. You're mixing up from people who are, like, traveling the world in an RV and making money somehow doing that as creators to people who are doing silkscreen printing and stuff like that. So you. I think that's kind of a. It's a nice angle and it's kind of a refreshing approach. It's not just always kind of the same sort of cookie cutter story.
- [16:48]
Matt Jura
Yeah. Because I've also been thinking about, like, okay, like, location wise. Right. Like, I'm in mostly the Midwest and the east coast, but, like, what's the west coast look like? Right. Like.
- [16:56]
Unknown Host
Right.
- [16:57]
Matt Jura
So I'm trying to put, like. I'm thinking more about it as, like, a data set in a lot of ways or like a library. Oh, okay. And then, like, I have, like, a better picture because the other thing I've realized is, like, this is. This is building a really unique data set that, like, no one really has, like, the growth strategies. Like how, like, where they, like, I have all this different stuff and, like, that's the piece that's been even more interesting to me.
- [17:19]
Chanel
So have you found it hard to grow the newsletter and YouTube channel because it's so diverse and there's not like a set person that's, like, perfect for this content.
- [17:28]
Matt Jura
I think it's. There's some of that for sure.
- [17:30]
Chanel
Okay.
- [17:31]
Matt Jura
I think the other thing is, like, there's just like, all the. I don't know if stigma is the right word about bootstrapping. Like, my original, like, thesis about bootstrapping is Like a lot of people's like mindset of like, oh, it's like, it's cute, it's not really worth it. There's like a lot of like economic development. Like if you like the other like entrepreneurial support organizations, right. They'll be like, oh, you're moving money around is what their theory is a lot. Which is like not true. I have like a lot of like stories I can show. Like here's how this is actually building your community and ecosystem. Innovation. Ecosystem. So like there's just been interesting like conversations around that and people not taking it as seriously I think as a pathway. But it's interesting is like people who have built a venture backed company and like maybe they shut it down, all those kind of things. Like they've been like, oh, I get it. And so that's been interesting to hear some of that feedback to you.
- [18:18]
Chanel
So how do you plan to grow this from here?
- [18:21]
Matt Jura
So that's been like the, the now that like I have like kind of like, okay, here's. I think what good is good. Good content and the brand is like in a decent, like I can pitch this in a decent spot. I think the growth strategy is like want to get on different podcasts. Like this one, two.
- [18:35]
Unknown Host
Check.
- [18:36]
Matt Jura
Got one. Yeah. But then two I think is like keep doing YouTube, do LinkedIn. LinkedIn. I have like that's my biggest following in some ways. Yeah, okay. Which isn't huge. It's only like 4,500 people. But I get decent engagement. So I think just like really leaning into that. Even though like I have mixed feelings about LinkedIn.
- [18:54]
Unknown Host
Don't we all?
- [18:55]
Matt Jura
Yeah, don't we all. So I think it's just kind of leading into some of this. And then what I'm also realizing is the data I'm getting is also like a pathway for myself. One of the things I've really learned is if you're building with others, you move so much faster to 250k. So like what the data I have is like if you've to get to 250k, the average time to get there from 0 to 250 is about 2 1/2 years. But if you're building in a community with others, it's a year, almost a year shorter.
- [19:23]
Chanel
And that's just like having people around you that are doing something similar or.
- [19:25]
Matt Jura
Is that like co founders, it's like building around you. So like it might be like you're in paid communities or like you're working with like other platforms like hacker news or like yeah. So as long as you're like in a community and there's others working with you and stuff that might be like sharing your content too, like that's when you like speed up like crazy.
- [19:44]
Unknown Host
So like collaborations and that sort of thing.
- [19:45]
Matt Jura
Yeah. Yep.
- [19:46]
Unknown Host
So maybe before we figure out how you're going to grow this further, how have you gotten to the 1200 subscribers? Like what, what have been your biggest growth? Growth channels.
- [19:54]
Matt Jura
So one was most recently is the bootstrap report. So I did, I kind of took like the first like 50 or so businesses that I've done research on, put them in like the data set, like very like here's what they are. Like the growth strategy is like the most used and those kind of things that's given me about 150 subscribers in the last like few months.
- [20:14]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [20:15]
Matt Jura
And that was like posted on like indie hackers. Like it was the top hit for indie hackers for a little bit. So that drove a good amount. And then just being shared out too. There's definitely some word of mouth elements. I can't figure out where they're coming from. And then the other pieces like creator network with Kit, there's been some other creators who are like, hey, I'll just recommend you. And they've sent me probably like a third of that list and then the rest is just YouTube because I was doing like airtable content and notion content and like your typical tools and things like that with like here's a template, here's the this like all that kind of thing. So that's probably the like 500 of the list or so from YouTube.
- [20:52]
Unknown Host
Do you do call to action to get your report, your bootstrap reporting there?
- [20:56]
Matt Jura
Yeah. So now the bootstrap report's everywhere. Like it should be hard to miss.
- [21:00]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [21:01]
Matt Jura
Okay. Yeah, it's like everywhere. So it's in all the blog posts now it's on the YouTube channel, it's in LinkedIn like crazy. So like ultimately like I'm trying to drive everything through that because I think that's the best resource like in terms of like, okay, here's what. Cause if you like the bootstrap report, you're gonna like the content. And so but if I did like other lead magnets, I don't think you might stick around. Like the people that are like signing up for like, oh, here's a free financial model. Like you probably don't care about the deep dives. Yeah, you didn't come in through that.
- [21:30]
Unknown Host
Okay, so plans for growth. What's worked is YouTube and Bootstrap Report. We could probably put those at number one, too. So where. What is the next. If you had to plan out, like, the next six months. Ish of growth strategies, what would you. Or. Or do you. Let's break this down and make this, like a brainstorm session of how we could help you. Because I think part of the reason Chanel's. I told Chanel, I'm like, I think we should have Matt on.
- [21:50]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [21:51]
Unknown Host
And she's like, I agree. And because I think your content's such a good quality and you do such a great job on the deep dives, I'm like, you should have more. You should have more subscribers. More people should see this stuff. This content is really good, and you put so much effort into it. It's not just something somebody's doing, like, you know, for an hour a week kind of thing. It's. You put a lot of time into it. So I want more people to see it. So let's get in front of more people. How can we do that? What's your plan for.
- [22:14]
Matt Jura
So I'd love both your thoughts on this. Okay. That's part of the question this month is how to do that. So the collabs has been on my mind. I've been doing a little bit, actually. Today on LinkedIn, I was like, let me see if I can I package these people stuff. Does that send stuff? So kind of experiment with that. Everyone seems to be like, matt, you need to go on a podcast. And I'm like, okay, interesting. So, and then, like, YouTube. YouTube is just such a commitment. It's. I feel like it's that that's like, the hardest platform to really do at, like, a really elite level. But, yeah, I'm trying not to be algorithm, like driven, but I also know that's part of the game.
- [22:51]
Chanel
Well, YouTube also is evergreen, which is nice in a sense of, like, yes, it's harder, but it lasts way longer than a LinkedIn post or anything, so. And I feel like when I first saw your content start to like the new stuff 11 months ago, it was like, his YouTube channel is really good. Cause it's just. You spend the time to make it good and, like, a good quality. And, you know, I'm all about that kind of insanely valuable content. So I do like that you're doing YouTube. I'm sure it's really hard, though. Have you thought about, like, not that I'm suggesting this, but paid ads at all?
- [23:20]
Matt Jura
It has been on my mind. I think it's been like, okay, what does that look like. And then what's the flywheel if there's no revenue coming? So I think that's the piece. Like. All right, do we do like the incubator now? So like, that becomes more of an option too.
- [23:35]
Chanel
Are you ready to start the incubator?
- [23:36]
Matt Jura
I don't know. I want to. I really do. I. I think there might. I might be ready.
- [23:44]
Unknown Host
Have you been part of one before?
- [23:45]
Matt Jura
Yeah, I mean, I've. I mean, I've been part of a bunch of incubators.
- [23:48]
Unknown Host
Okay. So you know how they, you know.
- [23:49]
Matt Jura
How they operate for like a decade now.
- [23:52]
Unknown Host
Dude, you're ready. You're ready.
- [23:53]
Matt Jura
Yeah, like I have. I. There's a really good friend of mine. He's like, matt, you're just a walking Rolodex. I'll just be like, oh, you should meet someone. So, yeah. So like that part of it just comes natural to me. I think it's more of just like, okay, who's actually paying for this? Like, who is? Like the first 10 or so people and then going from there and like really like doing that. Doing the initial pilot seems to be like the snowball effect, but that's the hardest lift.
- [24:19]
Unknown Host
It feels like 0 to 1.
- [24:20]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Chanel
And you're probably going to have to take a little bit of a break from content to start that maybe potentially. Yeah.
- [24:25]
Matt Jura
Or like get so far ahead in content.
- [24:28]
Chanel
Do you think there's a world where you would do like services of like helping someone who's trying to get off the ground and like, just give them part of your Rolodex? Maybe.
- [24:35]
Matt Jura
I've thought about that too. I think it's been like, okay, what does that actually look like? It's just like, like productized services. Also a thing I've learned. It's like where everyone's like, does really well. So it's like, yeah, what does that look like? But maybe that's like a. One of the tiers of the incubator too, where it's like more like one on one support too. Yep.
- [24:54]
Unknown Host
So what you could do. Just going back to the paid ads idea. The bootstrap report feels like a really good lead in. Right. So advertising that and then, then in the back end, the flywheel, so to speak, that Shane talked to us about this morning. You can just have a start pitching this incubator because the people who are going to be interested in a bootstrap report are probably going to be at least interested in a, in an incubator of some sort.
- [25:16]
Chanel
Here's my other thought. So, Dan, Runcy does the business of hip hop.
- [25:21]
Matt Jura
Oh, yeah.
- [25:21]
Chanel
And he has a report which is free, but then there's also a higher tier for industry professionals. I have to Wonder if other VCs or investors are interested in the content you're creating and the data set that you have. I almost wonder if there's a way to create a free version. Maybe you update it soon. I think you just released it a couple months ago, but maybe the next time you update it you could do that or get some sponsors for the report and then that could be. Maybe there's a way you could do like a. I don't know, like a hybrid model for sponsorships. Like, here's the base package to get you in the deck or the PDF or whatever you're selling it as. And then as we add 100 more subscribers or 1500 more subscribers, they like start. I don't know how that would work, but I'm just riffing here.
- [26:07]
Matt Jura
No, I know, like, Richard Vanderblum who does the LinkedIn guy.
- [26:10]
Unknown Host
LinkedIn guy, yeah.
- [26:12]
Matt Jura
He's been interesting because. Yeah, I'm like, I don't have the data set you have, but, like, that's where I feel like I'm trending in terms of the data. So. Yeah, what does that look like? And so I'm kind of like, I've been like, anytime like someone does a report or like, does anything, like, community wise and like building in public, I'm like, oh, safe.
- [26:27]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [26:28]
Unknown Host
What is your biggest challenge you're facing, like, right now?
- [26:30]
Matt Jura
I think just like growing the newsletter. I think it's like the growth side, like, what's the system that like, really grows this consistently? Okay, LinkedIn, like, I feel I can get lots of decent amount of eyeballs on stuff. But, like, does that translate to newsletter growth?
- [26:43]
Unknown Host
Yeah. Would you say that? I mean, LinkedIn is a professional network, so you'd think somebody who's trying to bootstrap a business would probably be there to some degree. But have you found that to be the case?
- [26:54]
Matt Jura
Yeah. So there's a lot of like, right. LinkedIn's known for the lurkers. And so I have a lot of that because when I come in, like, I'll be in person and stuff and they'll be like, I saw that content. I'm like, I didn't even know you existed.
- [27:04]
Unknown Host
Yeah, right.
- [27:04]
Matt Jura
Or like, I didn't know you were watching.
- [27:05]
Unknown Host
Never even hit like, before.
- [27:06]
Matt Jura
Yeah. And so there's a lot of that. And like, they're not on the newsletter. They're not so that's why I'm like, I can't abandon LinkedIn completely because it is hitting the right people a lot of the times.
- [27:17]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Matt Jura
Yeah, definitely.
- [27:19]
Unknown Host
So in terms of collaborations, because you did touch briefly on that podcast, is one way to do it. We've done some cross promos together. What is another. Is there more of a meat on that bone that you could. You could chew on?
- [27:33]
Matt Jura
So the one. Right. Like, I do most of my, Like, I still like. Right. A lot of what I know is, like, in person.
- [27:38]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [27:38]
Matt Jura
So it's been like, okay, like, is there a way to do events? Is there a way to partner with other organizations, especially to put on events, especially with, like, the local, like, entrepreneurial support organizations that are always, like, looking for people to do events with. I think, like, there's. That's a different time commitment, but you also get, like, a deeper level of subscribers. So it's like, it's the ROI piece of it of, like, the quality versus quantity thing. And, like, is the ratio. Right.
- [28:04]
Unknown Host
I guess you were looking at doing a tour this spring. Right? Walk us through that idea. Because I thought it was a really cool idea and you told us about it a few months ago, and then it kind of fell off. But just walk us through that idea, because I think that's like, a form of collaboration. It's like a form of a bunch of things, like collaboration events in person. So talk to us a little bit about that, because I think, yeah, maybe next year you might be able to take that one off the ground.
- [28:30]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [28:31]
Unknown Host
Fingers crossed.
- [28:31]
Matt Jura
Fingers crossed. Yeah. So the whole idea for the tour was, okay, if I can go tour around the country, like, go to these different cities, go to the different co working spaces, incubators, those kind of things. One, go interview people that have done 250k in person. Those kind of things. Like, maybe have a full backlog for the year. Don't have to record the rest of the year. Yeah. So that was one angle of it. Two was like, yeah, if I could do, like, do the. Essentially do the interviews, like, in person, maybe in front, like, some of them. Do them in front of an audience. Right. Do, like, a fireside chat. Do the first part of it as, like, the content for YouTube. Because what I do, I don't do it, like, straight, like, because not every founder is great at interviews. So I'll, like, interview them and I'll cut it up and, like, then, like, put it. Piece it all together. So if I took, like, the 20 minutes of that fireside chat to get. Okay, here's what I need. And the rest can be just like more open Q and A. That seems to be like a, like a really good fireside chat, I think. And you'd get like if you know the newsletter, which isn't a ton of people obviously, but if you know that like you're going to see the format and like be able to do all that. So like that felt like, okay. That could be really catalytic in terms of like getting in front of people, all that kind of stuff. And if I can get content recorded for like a year, that would be incredible.
- [29:43]
Unknown Host
That's almost the value to you selfishly.
- [29:46]
Matt Jura
And also just like get out and like go hear from people, like what's the piece that's like most helpful? Or all those kind of things. And also if you're building community, right. Like being in person with people is like so much better than digitally.
- [29:58]
Chanel
I'm curious if you've thought about. This is always on my mind lately. But CJ Gustafson of Mostly Metrics, he does like sponsored posts with brands. So he will go to a brand and say like, hey, let me write an article for your newsletter. They have a hundred thousand people on their email list. He essentially gets some of those subscribers and now they're actually paying him to write those articles. And now I mean he doesn't even have to create net new content. Like they're just sharing his stuff. I'm curious if there's a way that you could take something from that and maybe go out to software companies or startup like that, cater to these founders and say like, hey, let me like write something for you. And like those are your people on their audience. I have to wonder if there's something there totally.
- [30:42]
Matt Jura
Because I'm doing like one pilot. So basically there's a group called Midwest House in the Midwest. They're like this, they cover the Midwest obviously, but it's like all the Midwest startups and like they do a big event. I think their biggest event is it's at south by Southwest and they get like 3,000 people within like three days. But they do a newsletter on substack and they were like, oh, what if you just like posted one of your deep dives in our newsletter? Like you'll own the newsletter for once a month. That's interesting. And so like we're kind of piloting that to see how that goes.
- [31:10]
Chanel
Okay.
- [31:12]
Matt Jura
But yeah, like the other thought has been like as a prioritized service has been like, okay, what if I did like the deep dives on other centers and other like for companies and things like that. And then if I could get the rights to that data, that gives me a whole new data set too that I can keep building off of. Because the one thing I don't have right now, which I'd love to have is like the venture backed data of like, can I do apples? Like compare them and be like, are these different? How are they, like, how are they different? And that, like, I don't really want to do the content on that necessarily.
- [31:42]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [31:42]
Matt Jura
But I want the data.
- [31:43]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [31:45]
Matt Jura
So that's a piece of like, what does that look like? But also like. Right. These reports, I feel like are a really good lead magnet for so many people, especially these B2B businesses. Like, I'm really comfortable with them. They're really fun to do, even if they're not necessarily like my, like the bootstrap people, like, if they're about the companies and I can like do that. I think that'd be sweet.
- [32:05]
Chanel
That would be super interesting because I feel like that's just a way to get in front of such a big audience quickly and like you're not doing cross promos and getting like 20 subscribers here, maybe 50 there.
- [32:16]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Chanel
It's like you could get thousands, like fast.
- [32:20]
Matt Jura
Yeah. And I think there's just like, okay, who are those groups that like need that data and like how much time does it, time and effort does it take to go get those reports done?
- [32:29]
Chanel
You could also create like, like pitch one of these companies, Go to them and say, like, hey, I have all this data. I want to write a report for you on like the top 10 ways these people, these Bootstrap founders are growing something that would help their readers and they would kind of see value from. And then you don't have to worry too much about the data right away and it's still coming from your data set. And then you can kind of like pitch the founder the bootstrap founder report as like a lead magnet.
- [32:52]
Matt Jura
Yeah. I think there's a lot of stuff like chambers of commerce are interesting to me. I don't know, a ton. They're kind of outside my normal world in some ways. So it's like, is there a play with them too? Because they have these huge amounts of communities and things like that. Yeah, yeah. Is there a way, like a lot of the times, like a lot of these organizations, right. They're like, how do we show that we're actually valuable because like the data is hard for them to get. So if there's a way like that, I could do that. For them. I think that's a big value too for them. But then it's like, is that distraction? I don't know.
- [33:23]
Unknown Host
How do you think about other colleges and universities in terms of growth? Because I know why it just occurred to me now, like a Bootstrap founder is probably like a third, fourth year student potentially. Right. So have you gone down that rabbit hole at all?
- [33:39]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [33:40]
Unknown Host
Because you work at a, you work at a university.
- [33:42]
Matt Jura
Yeah, I do feel like I have a lot of hot takes about universities. Oh, okay.
- [33:46]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [33:48]
Matt Jura
I think the Bootstrap founders, I think like it's just a, we don't talk about it enough at the university level. It's like because all the VCs and everyone just like clamoring for like the biggest venture backed companies all the time. There's a value to that because I think there's like excitement and like that like, oh, I can go build the next pick a company. Right?
- [34:06]
Unknown Host
Right.
- [34:06]
Matt Jura
Yeah, that's like a, it's a nice little carrot. But then like they are like right. Like I was like, what are the worst nightmare for vc? So it's like, okay, we're dangling them and like expecting them to do that, but then they're measuring it off of like how much money they've raised. So like they like they might go raise money like kind of. We were like go raise a bunch of money and we're like a cool story for like a year but when we flame out we just like disappear and then you move on to the next. And that's not like a good ecosystem builder. And so that's where it's like, how do we support the ones that are actually going to build something that lasts for longer? And so like I think about that quite a bit because the other thing I've learned with the Bootstrap report particularly like the one of the things I've measured was years of experience.
- [34:47]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [34:48]
Matt Jura
And what I learned was like you need, it's about eight and a half years of experience. Typically when they start they're like the business that gets them to 250, which is about 32, which is about where I'm at age 32. And so it's like, which makes sense based on like my own optics. It made sense because like, oh yeah, like you start your first venture, go work, go make a little bit of money, you get sick of that and then you go move to like go build a venture. So like that all like put together like made sense to me. So I think it's the group that's after they leave university, I think. But like, how do you do that? I don't know yet.
- [35:20]
Unknown Host
So your target newsletter audience would not necessarily be university students?
- [35:25]
Matt Jura
Not necessarily yet. I think some of them will be like, I keep saying, like, there's going to be a university that figures out like, hey, booth rep companies are like a focus. I think it's gonna be someone that doesn't have a big VC space or a big VC network around it and they're gonna absolutely crush. Because you don't have to worry about the VCs necessarily. You can, you have to pitch differently. The communication is gonna be a lot different. But like, you could build a really, really cool local ecosystem just with doing the focus on that.
- [35:53]
Chanel
I still feel, Yeah, I feel like the brand angle is great. I think the tour is going to be amazing if you do still want to do that. I think it's just like, I remember a friend of mine did it, I don't know, 2016 or something, and he went to all the credit unions in the US it was more about like personal finance and stuff. But I think there's an angle there where it's just like compound and you build like every stop that you're at. It's like people talk about it more. There's more like PR and like images online and it's like creating a sense of fomo.
- [36:24]
Matt Jura
Totally. Right. And then like, yeah, the PR angle. Right. Like, it's such an easy. Especially if there's founders. Like I just did. I haven't published it yet, but there's a deep dive. It's an agency that runs. They do $30 million in revenue. They're fully bootstrapped. He's never asked to be on a Fireside Chat, which blows my mind.
- [36:41]
Chanel
Wow.
- [36:42]
Matt Jura
Like, blows my mind that no one knows. Like, like they're like, oh, yeah. Like we know them, but they don't understand, like, what they've built and what.
- [36:49]
Unknown Host
Size it's at, like, the impressiveness of it.
- [36:51]
Matt Jura
Yeah. And I'm like, he should be on a Fireside Chat, like monthly in this community. Like, there's not many of him. He's available. Like, that's the crazy. Like.
- [37:00]
Unknown Host
And you've. And you interviewed him?
- [37:02]
Matt Jura
Yeah, yeah. Like, he's been a mentor of mine for a long time. And I was like, he doesn't talk. Like, he doesn't do any events.
- [37:08]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [37:09]
Matt Jura
And I'm like, like people might know who he is, but like, he's not this big thing. But if he was venture backed, he would be talked about all the time.
- [37:16]
Unknown Host
Right. Because that's sort of the sexy headline. Right. They raised $50 million from a 16Z or whoever.
- [37:23]
Chanel
I think it's more sexy to have that headline.
- [37:25]
Matt Jura
I agree.
- [37:26]
Unknown Host
I agree.
- [37:27]
Chanel
This guy built this business by himself and, like, figured it out, and now he's sitting on this, like, $30 million project.
- [37:33]
Matt Jura
Yeah. And, like, just. They do incredible work, like crazy. I feel like every time I talk to them, there's, like, crazy stories in such a good way. And I'm like, how are you not in front of a mic all the time?
- [37:44]
Chanel
Do these people all hang out in, like, a specific community together?
- [37:47]
Matt Jura
Is there, like, anything they like? Maybe they'll go to chamber events, kind.
- [37:51]
Chanel
Of here and there, BNI type things. Is that even a thing for those folks?
- [37:55]
Matt Jura
Yeah, like, if they're doing, like, they'll do a little bit, but a lot of times they're kind of solo or, like, their network is outside of their local region, too. I've learned, like, oh, they met them. Like, there's this conference they go to, and that's where they just, like, hang out. So it's just like. It's just pockets everywhere. Or, like, there's like. Yeah, there's another group which, like, now I featured, like, three or four of them together. But basically, like, there's like, these networking groups that people sign up for, and they just, like, keep building relationships. Like, there's this full network of people. Like, give deep dive slick. There's Bernie Bernowski and then, like, Aaron, Rowland, Hagen, Eduardo Place. Like, they were all connected. They're not even in the same vicinity. Like, Aaron's in Iowa City, of all places. Brandon's in New York, New Jersey. New York. And then Eduardo's in New York. But, like, they're all just, like, super connected and like that. They're just talking all the time.
- [38:42]
Chanel
I wonder if you can go to these conferences and just, like, hand out, like, stickers or something.
- [38:47]
Matt Jura
Stickers are, like, me just, like, sitting in front of, like, a bench with studio and, like, hey, anyone want to sit and talk with me?
- [38:52]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Unknown Host
Holding your funky, expensive camera mic thing.
- [38:57]
Chanel
Get, like, the Justin Moore backpack that lights up. You can have it say, like, are you a Bootstrap founder? Come talk to me.
- [39:03]
Matt Jura
Keep a T shirt banner. Yeah.
- [39:05]
Chanel
Dress up like a banana or something.
- [39:07]
Matt Jura
Yes. A quarter.
- [39:08]
Chanel
You could dress up like a quarter.
- [39:10]
Unknown Host
Oh, wow.
- [39:12]
Chanel
Or have somebody else dress up like a quarter.
- [39:13]
Matt Jura
Dress up on, like, I forget. I don't know. I don't even know what president's on the quarter. But dress up as that person.
- [39:19]
Unknown Host
I'm Canadian, so I have no idea. President's on the quarter. I know there's a moose on our quarter. Or an elk. Geez, I'm getting canceled by Canadians. There's an elk on our quarter.
- [39:26]
Matt Jura
That's it.
- [39:27]
Chanel
We're going to get canceled by Americans. We don't even know what's on the quarter. This is your brand now. You have to know what's on the quarter.
- [39:34]
Matt Jura
I'll look that up on you.
- [39:36]
Chanel
Amazing.
- [39:37]
Unknown Host
Any parting thoughts or words? I think anybody listening might be like, well, I don't even have 1200 subscribers, or, and I'm struggling. Like, do you have any words of advice? You might feel like I only have 1200 subscribers, but there was a point in time 11 months ago where you had zero. What's Matt's word of wisdom for the day?
- [39:57]
Matt Jura
I feel like everything I've learned is just, like, stick with it. And if you feel like you're providing value for people, that it's gonna hit eventually. It hits faster than others for others. Everyone's on a different timeline. So, like, in my head, it's been like, it's hard to do, like, compete against yourself versus, like, someone else. Yeah. And which is hard. It's also hard, like, especially doing these deep dives. I'm like, oh, they grew so fast. Like. But then you'll hear people be like, oh, yeah, it took seven years, or whatever it is. Like, so it just, like, do good stuff. And I think consistently growing that mentality, I think that's where it matters.
- [40:33]
Unknown Host
Your story kind of reminds me of that Jack Butcher diagram where it's like, you know, small line, small line, small line, small line. And then all of a sudden, foom.
- [40:42]
Chanel
This is pointless at the bottom.
- [40:44]
Unknown Host
Exactly.
- [40:44]
Chanel
You think it's like, you give. Yeah. Right before you give up, it's like nothing's happening. And then all of a sudden, it's like, explosion.
- [40:52]
Unknown Host
And you can feel when there's, like, a little bit of momentum building, but when you're getting the signal, I guess that, like, crickets, nobody's watching or listening, then maybe it's time. You don't want to do the same thing over and over for years. But my point is, like, you're getting a bit of momentum and you're getting that growth. Maybe not as fast as you want, but, I mean, we see the quality of content you're putting out there and work. You do. So I think it's just a matter of time. If you stick with it, appreciate that.
- [41:16]
Chanel
And I think you have the experience the knowledge and like, it's going to happen. It's inevitable. It's just like patience.
- [41:22]
Matt Jura
Yeah, I know.
- [41:25]
Chanel
I'm aware.
- [41:27]
Matt Jura
Yeah. But I think. Yeah, totally. I think, right. And then like the in person elements, like when I go to events and like, people are like, oh, yeah, I read XYZ thing and like, this is really helpful. I'm like, I had no idea you're even on the newsletter. So it's those like, signals. I'm like, that's the more important piece to me right now.
- [41:43]
Chanel
Yeah.
- [41:44]
Matt Jura
Like the one deep dive has like 34 views on YouTube or something. And I'm like, darn it. Like, that is such a good video.
- [41:49]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [41:50]
Matt Jura
But then like before, like the 34, I guess 34 people still.
- [41:53]
Unknown Host
Yeah, it is, it is. So people can find you on LinkedIn. Matt Gira.
- [41:58]
Matt Jura
Yeah, yeah. Find me there. And the bootstrap report is jointhecarter.com bootstrapped.
- [42:04]
Unknown Host
We'll put all those links all down below where you're watching this. And man, it's so great meeting you in person.
- [42:09]
Matt Jura
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Unknown Host
For real.
- [42:10]
Matt Jura
You have legs.
- [42:11]
Unknown Host
Yeah. You have legs.
- [42:12]
Matt Jura
That's right.
- [42:13]
Unknown Host
You're not just ahead. Thanks for hanging out with us.
- [42:17]
Chanel
Thanks, Matt.
- [42:17]
Matt Jura
Thanks for having me. This is always fun.
- [42:20]
Chanel
Awesome.
- [42:22]
Matt Jura
Sa.