Recapping CEX 2025: Un-hyping AI, Community Moats, and the Future of Newsletters

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Growth In Reverse
Episode: Recapping CEX 2025: Un-hyping AI, Community Moats, and the Future of Newsletters
Hosts: Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop
Date: September 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Chenell Basilio shares her experience attending and speaking at CEX 2025 (Content Entrepreneur Expo), including her biggest takeaways, key industry themes, and memorable moments. She and Dylan deep-dive into trends like the un-hyping of AI, the rise of community moats, in-person networking, experimentation with physical newsletters, and how real human interaction and relationship-building are shaping the future of newsletters and content businesses.

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Key Themes & Insights

1. Speaking at CEX: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and the Power of Visibility

• Chenell’s Speaking Experience
  • Chenell describes the nerves and excitement of opening the conference right after a keynote by Joe Pulizzi ([01:22–03:10]).
  • Felt imposter syndrome among “big names” but received great feedback, reminding her “you never know who’s reading your content.”
  • Met and got feedback from content marketing notables like Mark Schaefer and Robert Rose.
  • Quote:

    "You never know who's reading your content... Just focus on putting out the best work you can and stuff that you enjoy, and eventually you'll get some feedback."
    (Chenell, [03:46])

  • Connections made in-person at the event, including people offering podcast invitations immediately after her talk ([26:05]).

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2. AI: From “Magic Bullet” to Mundane Reality

• Un-hyping AI for Content Creation
  • AI-generated content quickly loses its human touch—if everyone uses it, everything sounds the same ([10:26], [13:37]).
  • AI is better as a productivity tool (summaries, outlines, research) than as a stand-in for actual writing and thinking.
  • Quote:

    "AI doesn't really push back on your ideas... it just gives you more of what it knows about. But it's not turning around and being like, well, actually, have you thought about it this way?"
    (Chenell, [10:26])

  • Many sessions at CEX warned against “outsourcing the thinking” to AI and promoted slowing down, wrestling with ideas, and infusing more humanity into content.
  • Using AI for second drafts or editing/idea generation rather than for the creative bulk was encouraged ([15:59–16:19]).
  • Memorable Comparison:

    "If content is king, then AI is storming in the castle."
    (Darryl Westerfeldt via Chenell, [25:23])

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3. Slow Down: “ASAP – As Slow as Possible” & Embracing Friction

• Intentional Friction
  • New books and talks promoting “as slow as possible” (Ann Handley) and embracing friction for more thoughtful, resonant work (Robert Rose’s "Intentional Friction") ([17:23–18:14]).
  • Quote:

    "Now we all look back and we're like, why is everything broken?"
    (Chenell quoting Robert Rose, [17:34])

  • Pushback against the “move fast and break things” mantra—urging creators to think deeply, refine, and not rush creative output.

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4. Community as a Moat & The Comeback of the Physical

• Community’s Growing Value
  • As AI-content proliferates, true communities and relationships become ever more defensible ([24:18–25:24]).
  • Real connection and engagement matter more than sheer content volume.
  • Physical newsletters and handwritten notes are making a comeback as a way to stand out and foster authentic relationships ([21:28], [39:02]).
  • Quote:

    "Community is more important than ever, just because everyone's going to get so sick of AI and you can pump out a thousand articles a day if you wanted to. Where do you stand out with that?"
    (Chenell, [24:18])

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5. Discovery vs. Relationship Platforms

• Jay Klaus’s Framework
  • Discovery platforms (social: Twitter/X, LinkedIn, Instagram) are for reach; relationship platforms (newsletters, podcasts) build trust ([08:14–09:59]).
  • Use one platform from each category. Move audience from discovery to relationship for better engagement.

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6. Social Media as Human-first (Even for SEOs!)

• Will Reynolds’s Shift
  • All-in on humans and social, less focus on Google/SEO even coming from an SEO agency owner ([28:34–30:00]).
  • Real social engagement (“30 comments on LinkedIn means so much more than 10,000 random Google page views from bots”).
  • Social as a crucial feedback loop to test ideas before going longform ([32:03]).
  • Quote:

    "Social media is humans. Like, you can't—yes, there are bots—but the vast majority of people commenting and liking and sharing are actual people."
    (Chenell, [29:44])

• Testing content ideas on social before expanding, building momentum through feedback.

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7. Newsletter and Audience-Building Tactics

• From Comments to Content
  • Use your own thoughtful comments on others’ posts as fodder for your newsletter or social content ([33:07]).
  • Set numeric goals for commenting to spur new content ideas (referencing Richard Vanderblam's 30 comments/day strategy, [34:32]).
• Quality over Quantity
  • Value of “who” is on your list or engagement, not how many ([37:24]).
  • Quote:

    "It's not how many, it's who."
    (Sean Griffey via Dylan, [37:24])

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8. Collaborations and Co-Creation

• More Effective Content
  • Co-creating articles increases quality and reach, leverages expertise, and taps into multiple networks ([39:14]).
  • Examples: Mario Gabriele’s S1 Reports, Lenny’s Newsletter.
  • Enhanced credibility (like in medical or technical verticals), opportunities for cross-promotion.

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9. In-Person Events Trump Digital Connection

• Human Connection at Events
  • Attending and speaking at events forges stronger professional bonds than anything virtual ([41:18–42:07]).
  • Plans to host smaller, localized dinners to deepen relationships among newsletter operators ([42:19]).
  • Quote:

    "Go to more in-person events; shake someone's hand, talk to them, go grab lunch, get out of your normal routines and start learning from people in real life."
    (Chenell, [41:19])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “You never know who's reading your content... Focus on putting out the best work you can and stuff that you enjoy, and eventually you'll get some feedback.” (Chenell, [03:46])
• "If content is king, then AI is storming in the castle." (Darryl Westerfeldt via Chenell, [25:23])
• "Now we all look back and we're like, why is everything broken?" (Chenell quoting Robert Rose, [17:34])
• "AI doesn't really push back on your ideas... but it's not turning around and being like, well, actually, have you thought about it this way?" (Chenell, [10:26])
• "It's not how many, it's who." (Sean Griffey via Dylan, [37:24])
• "Go to more in-person events; shake someone's hand, talk to them, go grab lunch, get out of your normal routines and start learning from people in real life." (Chenell, [41:19])
• "You can have that same mindset when it comes to social media. It's not how many people are commenting, how many people saw my post, how many people liked it, it's who..." (Dylan, [37:24])

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Opening: CEX Conference Experience – [00:00–04:42]
• Speaking Tips, Audience Takeaways, and Imposter Syndrome – [01:22–04:16]
• AI and Content Creation – [10:26–18:14]
• Community, Physical Newsletters, and Human Connection – [21:28–25:24]
• Jay Klaus: Discovery vs. Relationship Platforms – [08:14–09:59]
• Will Reynolds: Humans > SEO – [28:34–30:00]
• Social Media as a Feedback Loop – [32:03–34:50]
• Collaborative Content and Relationship-building – [39:14–41:16]
• In-person Events and Future Plans – [41:18–43:07]

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Tone and Final Reflections

The episode has an energetic, reflective, and slightly irreverent vibe, as the hosts share both enthusiasm and skepticism around the latest trends, celebrating the “humanness” of creation, and championing authentic relationships—whether via newsletters, communities, handwritten notes, or face-to-face connection.

Final advice:

• Use AI strategically, but don’t lose your “voice”
• Invest in community and relationships as a business moat
• Test ideas publicly, focus on quality connections
• Attend live events and consider methods that feel slower or more human—like physical newsletters and handwritten notes—to stand out.

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

[A]

So Chanel, you just got back from CEX in Cleveland. Why don't you tell people a little bit about that experience? Because I think you had a good time. You spoke there. What is CEX and how did it change your life?

[B]

It was a really good conference. CEX stands for Content Entrepreneur Expo. It used to be the Creator Economy Expo and then they changed the phrasing because a publishing company called Lulu bought it, which helps creators self publish their books. So that's like their main conference now, which is awesome. Still the same content, similar vibes, amazing people putting it on. But yeah, I was in Cleveland earlier this week. I can't believe I just got back yesterday. What day is it?

[A]

And you drove, right?

[B]

I did, yeah. Yeah, the flights were like insanely expensive, like $900 to Cleveland, Ohio. And I was like, from Philadelphia, I was like, this is off. I could go to like France for that money. Yeah. So I was like, I'm going to drive. It was only six hours. So yeah, the drive was nice. It was good to have time to like gather my thoughts on the way home.

[A]

So I think the goal of this chat is to kind of glean the biggest takeaways that you found from CEX and maybe some lessons we can share with listeners that, who weren't able to make it. Things you saw, things you heard, what's interesting, what's in the. What's new in the zeitgeist of newsletters and the creator economy.

[B]

The one thing that keeps standing out to me is I ended up going. Joe Polizzi opened the conference. He did like a quick.

[A]

He started this conference.

[B]

He did. He has been in the marketing space for like decades. So he is very well known in this space. I was super, super grateful for him to reach out and ask me to speak. I felt super amounts of imposter syndrome there because the other speakers were like really on their game. And I'm like, who am I over here? But it was fun. He, he actually, he spoke for like 20 or 30 minutes and then I pretty much opened it after that and I was like, okay, this is crazy. So I was super nervous about that because opening a conference is a little nerve wracking. But it went, it went really well. I am happy with how it turned out. Got a lot of great feedback. I was super nervous because Jay Kunzo was there and he's like professional speaker guy and he was sitting like second row and I was like, come on, Jay, I was hoping you like slept in or something.

[A]

That was nervous early. Sat in the back, maybe yeah, it's intimidating presence, sitting there judging every word you say.

[B]

Totally. But he's awesome. And he. He gave me great feedback at the end, which was nice to hear. He actually opened the second day, and I am so glad I didn't have to speak after him because he essentially run. Ran down a list of all the things you shouldn't do as a speaker. And I was like, oh, man. Amanda Northcutt got the. The spot right after him. And I felt very bad for her. She did a great job.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There's no help. You can't help. Like, you've been putting together this presentation. And then Jay Kunzo comes up and he's like, here are seven things not to do. And it's like, yep, I have a slide for that. I have a slide for that. Okay, great.

[A]

Did Amanda acknowledge, like, hey, so I'm going to do six of the seven things that he told me not to. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, she did.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

She's like, you know, I never realized it was a dream of mine to get on stage after a professional speaker, but here we are. I was like, okay.

[A]

Oh, it's good.

[B]

Good on you. It was funny, but, no, it was awesome. I'm glad I went first. It really alleviated some pressure and nerves. Got a ton of great feedback. And I think the biggest takeaway just from speaking at this event was like, you never know who's reading your content online in the room, listening. I had some people come up to me afterwards that I was like, if I knew you were here, I would have been so much more nervous. Like Marc Shafer, Robert Rose. There's some big names in the content marketing space, so they might not ring bells for everybody listening, but if you've been in this space for a while, you probably know who those folks are.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And they gave some great feedback. And I was like, whoa, that's really cool. But I think, yeah, the takeaway is just like, you. You never know who's reading your content. You never know who stumbled across that LinkedIn post you just shared yesterday or. But maybe they didn't comment and you'll hear about it in, like, a year. So I think it's just a good reminder to not focus too much on, like, the outside metrics of things that you see online and focus really on just, like, putting out the best work you can and stuff that you enjoy, and eventually you'll get some feedback.

[A]

Yeah. You mentioned Mark Schaefer. Did he tell you that you should stop publishing a newsletter and just write a blog instead?

[B]

He did not, actually, but he told me that the concept of insanely valuable content was, like, right up there with, like, what he appreciates about marketing and stuff, so.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah, nice. No, he was talking about all kinds of TikTok ads and all. All kinds of stuff. Really interesting. Yeah.

[A]

I. I only ask because. And I know we're talking with Cex, but this. Since you brought this up or his name up, I wrote a post for Tilt Publishing back, like three years ago saying blogs are dead. Start a newsletter instead. Essentially was like, the gist of it. And this was before. Like, those two are a little bit more synonymous with each other. And he, like, had this rebuttal blog post where he just kind of like tourist strip out of my. I guess my concept saying, why would you start a newsletter when just you and your. You, your mom and your grandma who are subscribed to it and blog traffic. It's all this stuff. And. And it was fun. He messaged me after saying, hey, just. I thought that this would be a fun thing to reply to. Don't take it personally. And, yeah, so it was all good. He's like, genuinely, we should, like, sit down, have a drink sometime. But it was funny. He, like, publicly eviscerated me.

[B]

That's great. That's. You should put that in, like, your LinkedIn bio.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Got torn to shreds by Mark Schaefer.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's funny.

[A]

It was good.

[B]

No, his talk and a bunch of others. He went at the end of the first day, but his talk and a bunch of others were talking mostly about, like, how do you stand out in a world of AI? And it was just interesting to hear some of his takes on that and that kind of thing. But he was sharing just, like, case studies of companies and, like, liquid death who are doing something completely different. Not just, like, iterating on something. They're just, like, completely changing the game.

[A]

Yeah. In terms. Sorry, in terms of content or in terms of product content? Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Like, yeah, so like, marketing content, not just, like, newsletter type stuff. But his book is called Audacious and it's all about, like, human how humans win in an AI marketing world.

[A]

Don't use EM dashes. Synopsis. Yeah, I'm just kidding. That's cool.

[B]

I'm gonna start using more EM dashes. I think. I think I decided that over this past week. I was like, you know what? Yeah, I'm gonna use more of them just so I can. I don't know. I'm just so sick of hearing that. I know, it's AI if you have EM dashes or if you use certain words, I'm like, okay, so that was interesting. I. I didn't really know a whole ton about their backgrounds before I. Actually, the craziest part of this conference, I think, was J. Konzo invited me to a small speaker dinner. It was like, me, Jay Klaus, Justin Moore, Anne Handley.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Ann.

[B]

Amy Landino, Mark Schaefer, and Robert Rose.

[A]

Sorry, who did you say after Ann Henley?

[B]

Amy Landino. She used to do like, she schmittastic was her thing.

[A]

Recognize the name, but I don't know if I know her stuff.

[B]

She's been on YouTube for, like, decades.

[A]

Okay, nice.

[B]

Yeah, so that was pretty crazy because I felt very out of place at that one. But it was, it was great. I had a great conversation with the two older, older men. And I'm realizing about myself, I love talking to, like, dad and grandfather figures. Like, I always have good conversations with those people. I don't know why. This is like, personal life. Every time I go to a party, I'm like, talking to the old guy in the corner. I'm like, this is hilarious.

[A]

Mark and Robert, you guys are very young, though.

[B]

Very young. Very young.

[A]

You're not dads and grandpas.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

That's cool, though.

[B]

So that was fun.

[A]

Just like the wise voices in the room.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they've just seen more things and they've slowed down in their life of like, only focusing on what real actually matters.

[A]

Yeah, it's nice to have that perspective. Right?

[B]

Insights.

[A]

Yeah, that's cool.

[B]

So Jay Klaus gave a talk about discovery platforms versus relationship platforms, and that was good. I. He did something similar at the newsletter marketing summit. So I had already heard that one. But it's always a good reminder of like, hey, you should probably focus on like, one discovery platform. One relationship platform, which is like. I was gonna say podcast. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So just discovery is so, like. So social media. Discovery platforms are like social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and then relationship platforms are like email marketing, podcasts. And then he had. YouTube was like, in the middle because there are some, like, relationship building aspects of it, but it's also a discovery platform. Um, so he, he always recommends to, like, start with one discovery platform, whether that's LinkedIn or Twitter, and then drive people to your relationship platform so that you can kind of, you know, you. You more. You don't own that audience, but you are able to better talk to that audience. So.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you're driving people to whether it Be a newsletter or a podcast or YouTube, even YouTube channel. It's just more personal. Personal intent, I guess, if you will. Like, people who are going to those places have far more intent on engaging with you and hearing what you have to say, and then you'll build more trust with them. And yeah, it's. It sounds obvious, but it's. It just makes a lot of sense. My question would be, like, if you're driving people to your podcast, you also sort of have to drive people away from your podcast. If you have. Unless you're strictly going for, like, the podcast media play, where you're just making money on ads and stuff. Like, you probably want to also drive them to a newsletter or to something else. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Unless podcast is your thing.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Has worked. I would still recommend, like, having a newsletter. But yeah, it doesn't have to be your main focus. But there are a lot of people who, like, have separate businesses outside of the content space. And, like, they're using content as lead gen, for lack of a better term. But then there are also the people who are like professional podcasters, and that's all they do. So that's. That's probably the difference there. But I agree with you. Yeah, you want to have something outside of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

I think one of the biggest takeaways and one of the biggest conversation points that spanned through a lot of the talks was really about this whole idea of not using AI for content. And so the reasoning being is that if everyone's using AI for content, it's all going to end up sounding the same. And you can already start to see this. Like, AI doesn't really push back on your ideas, it just gives you more of what it knows about. But it's not turning around and being like, well, you said this, but actually have you thought about it this way? And so I think that's really where the human angle comes in of slowing down, having context, pattern recognition between different outlets and things that you've experienced in your life. So I think that was a big point of this of like, but use AI for tasks instead of building out content. And don't just give away your humanness to AI, even in terms of taking a transcript of something and turning it into a blog post. And I'm like, I see that because I pull out so many different things than when I go to Claude. And I'm like, give me a blog post from this transcript. And it never actually pulls out what I would have pulled out, or it skips some of the big pieces that actually it can't really hear inflection in a transcript. And so it's just such a good reminder to don't delegate the content and the humanness out of yourself and your work.

[A]

That makes sense. I think that what I found too, with AI is I use deep research with ChatGPT to try to put together ideas for an article. Not even ideas, like a rough draft for something I was wanting to write about. And it put together a pretty robust. It did a decent amount of research, put together a pretty robust draft. But I read through it. I'm just like, this doesn't sound or feel like me, and I am bored reading this. And so I'm still like, working through that draft. And like, the bones of it are good, like the way it's laid out. And I find that helpful with AI, but, like, I need to go in there and just like kind of almost every single sentence or paragraph, just go in and restructure. Either delete it completely because it's either redundant or it's already been said or which is actually redundant because that's what that means. And so I have to go in there and basically put my own stamp on it. And so I think with taking a transcript, what I think the best use for AI in my. What I found is it's so good at summarizing and outlining and creating bullet points that you can build on. And it might pull out things that you may not have otherwise noticed. But yes, sometimes it can certainly miss things that we're like, no, this was like very, very clearly the thing, but you didn't even realize that was a thing.

[B]

And sometimes it actually takes you longer when you use AI. If you just would have sat down and been like, okay, Here are the 10 things I took away from this. Let me just build on them. Instead of like, hey, AI, like, give me this thing. And then you're sitting there and you're like, wait, is that really what I was going to say? No. Is this what I was going to say? No, you took it out of context over here and it's just like.

[A]

Or did they really. Are you hilarious?

[B]

And then. And then you ask it and it's like, oh, they didn't say that. And I'm like, this is. It's taking longer.

[A]

Come on, bro.

[B]

Yeah, you had one job. So I think. I think I'm just getting very, like, I don't know, down on AI in some senses of like, I don't know. It's just. I think we all thought it was amazing at first. And you're, like, realizing now that it's like, well, actually, maybe it's just making you sound like everyone else and you should just create your own stupid stuff.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think it's that whole thing where it's like, it was new technology and we couldn't do what we were doing with it before, and now 3ish. 4. Four years into it, we're like, okay, yeah, it's. It's still like. It's still. It's amazing in some ways, but it's like our expectations have now met up with that amazing, and it's not amazing anymore. And now it needs to be another level and it's just taking time to get to that next level. Yeah.

[B]

Or it's not going to get there in terms of content creation.

[A]

That's also true. That's also true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

Pick it up to your brain.

[B]

Yeah. But even then, like, I feel like we're just giving away the thinking. And so a lot of people kept talking about, like, slowing down. Just, like, wrestle with ideas in your head, come up with different takes on things. And it's just. I don't know, I'm just feeling very inspired by that and excited to go back and not try and use some of this stuff. Force myself, not force myself to try and use it, because I feel like I'm. You're going to fall behind if you don't use AI and it's like, well, probably not. Not right now, at least not in terms of some, like, the content side of things. Yes. With business tasks and, like, I don't know, if I wanted to go build a website, I could just go to Lovable or something and be like, hey, build me this thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that works pretty well. But, yeah, in terms of, like, mental work, I think it's still or may never get there.

[A]

Yeah, I think it just. I think it's a nothing but a benefit to do the hard work and not outsource the thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I say that as somebody who definitely uses AI quite a bit to, like, formulate ideas or get first drafts out so that I can kind of like, figure out how maybe a LinkedIn post from a podcast transcript should look, that sort of thing. But that being said, it's to actually, if you have the time and the ability and the brainpower to sit down and actually do what we did five years ago and wrote our own content, wrote our own posts, wrote our own show notes, wrote odor newsletters, Then I think it's probably in your best interest to do that.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, a lot of people were saying, don't even use it for a first draft because you completely take away the humanness of it. They're saying, use it for a second draft or put in, hey, I have this piece.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What am I missing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know all this about me. What am I missing? What. What should I have let it be?

[A]

Your editor didn't.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

Yeah, I like that.

[B]

So I'm just excited to get back to, like, I don't know, letting myself wrestle with ideas instead of just being like, hey, AI, what is. What are the 10 top things that blah, blah, blah. You know, like, it's just interesting to think about that because I do feel. I do feel that muscle weakening a little bit if I do use AI for, like, putting together a first draft of, like, a show notes type, blog post or whatnot.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I don't doubt it. We get kind of lazy to some degree. We're just like, yeah, we can. We can just like, outsource our thinking. Right. And if we have the time and the capacity and ability to do it, we should probably go, like, almost like AI Free weeks or something like that. Like, make it a theme. Like, hey, this week I'm not using any AI on my content or in any of my processes maybe. I mean, there's some stuff that it makes sense for sure that you maybe be foolish not to, but I kind of like that idea of just being like, I'm going sober, AI. Sober this week.

[B]

Yeah. And just see what happens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. So was a big, big theme.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

Moving through the, like, so many people's talks were just like, yeah. Ann Hanley's next book coming out is called as Slow As Possible asap, But as slow as possible.

[A]

No.

[B]

And she's kind of talking about the same. Same concept of take your time, let your brain think and work and wrestle with these ideas. Stop trying to speed up. And Robert Rose had something in his talk. He wrote a book called Intentional Friction or something like that. It's about friction. And he was saying that everybody wanted to move super fast. And they're like, just move fast and break stuff. And he's like, now we all look back and we're like, why is everything broken? And I was like, yes, that's so good.

[A]

Yeah, that is good.

[B]

I like that one.

[A]

That is good.

[B]

That was good.

[A]

I get the sentiment behind move fast and break stuff. And I think there's A time and a place for that, for sure. But it's also like. But you also need to fix the broken stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You shouldn't just keep moving, like go back and fix it once you shipped.

[A]

Your thing or figure out why it broke and don't just build on the broken thing anyway. Okay, cool. So AI was a big theme. Were there any other big themes that, that you saw? Is there anything, like any newsletter relevant takeaways that came out of was more.

[B]

Just content relevant takeaways? Because it was a content marketing focused conference. And even in my talk, I was talking more about newsletter stuff and it felt a little out of place. But I was also like, this is what I know. And you asked me to speak, so here we are.

[A]

No, but I think it's super relevant because content is such a. It's such a broad umbrella term. It can mean so many things. So I like that you actually drilled down into like one specific type of content. And within newsletters, newsletter content that still can mean a ton of different things too. So I think I probably, if I was there, I probably would have appreciated the nuance there.

[B]

So that was really fun. I had a bunch of good conversations. My friend Doc was there and we always go down these super deep rabbit holes. So me, him and Paul were talking, but Doc is always. He's the kind of guy that you. You go up to him and you're like, hey, Doc, what's up? And he's like, you know, what's up? Doc has the carrot.

[A]

Chewing a carrot.

[B]

What's up, Doc? As well. I know, I really should. How did I not put that together? I'm gonna say that next time. He just always has these crazy things that he'll teach you. He'll be like, hey, have you ever found the YouTube channel XYZ or whatever it's called? I'm like, no. He's like, yeah, they're making like $3 million, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, what? Or there was this app called whatnot. Have you heard of this?

[A]

Oh, that sounds very familiar.

[B]

Okay, so this app, these people get on, it's like ebay, but live like TikTok. So these people come on and they're just like holding up a watch and you have 30 seconds to buy this thing or not buy this thing.

[A]

Yes, I've heard of this. Yes. For plants.

[B]

And I was like, this is crazy. So people have 30 seconds. You start the stream, it counts down to 30 seconds. How do you even get across why this thing is so cool in 30 seconds?

[A]

And people bid on it like a live auction.

[B]

Wild. Yes.

[A]

Dang.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I want to see if we can pull up like a revenue number because this is crazy.

[A]

And so I. I assume the app takes a percentage of the sale of the item.

[B]

Yeah. Eight percent commission.

[A]

Wow. Eight percent. Okay.

[B]

Some. Okay. So this website estimated that whatnot hit $359 million in revenue in 2024.

[A]

Okay. 359 million in revenue. 2024. That's nuts. Wild. It's like, what is that? 120? No, sorry. 12 million. No, I'm not gonna do public math. I'm not gonna do it.

[B]

The app was founded in 2019, so it's a five year old app. Six year old app, and they're making crazy money off of 8% commissions.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Wow. Okay. That is neat.

[B]

Sorry. Yeah. So. So anyway, so Doc is always just coming up with these crazy things. So I'm convincing him. I tried to convince him to start a newsletter about this because I was like, I will be your first and your second and your third subscriber. I will sign up with three different emails to make sure I don't miss it. But I think he actually was talking about going like the physical newsletter direction. So we'll see.

[A]

Okay. Physical newsletters. Yeah, that's going to be a thing soon. I like that. So you said, you mentioned Paul as well. Who's Paul? You said Doc and Paul.

[B]

Oh, Paul runs powwows dot com. It's about like a Native American website, but he's got this large newsletter and Facebook group and everything.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

He was wearing a Disney shirt and he was telling me that people buy and sell the Disney shirts for like a thousand dollars. Like, some of them have different prints. It's like a sneaker situation where like, you know, this certain Nike has like a different color or a different theme to it, so they go for more money. It was. It was crazy. My mind was blown.

[A]

I'm like, what, like a Disney print shirt that sells for hundreds of dollars?

[B]

Yeah, this one company, I forget what they're called, but now that I'm getting like ads on Instagram for you.

[A]

Yeah, of course you are.

[B]

But he was. He was wearing this shirt and I was like, oh, that's a Disney shirt. And he's like, yeah, I have like a lot of these. And I was like, oh, okay, what's the story behind that? And he's like, they're like very collectible in the space. I was like, oh. And then he was saying that they go for like 500 or one of them's like $1,000.

[A]

So are these physical? NFT.

[B]

Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like a Rolex or like any of those, so.

[A]

Yeah, but they're like. Are they one offs though?

[B]

I don't know if they're one offs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know, maybe they have like 10 or 20 or whatever.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Yeah. So this is not newsletter related, but I was very. My mind was blown at the random businesses and opportunities there are out there.

[A]

No kidding. And I think you could probably put. Weave some of these interesting businesses into how this could apply for newsletters or how you could build a newsletter from that concept or something like that. We will not get into go down those rabbit holes today. But yeah, this could get your mind racing a little bit more. I just, the, the fact that you mentioned Doc was wanting to do a physical newsletter just like. Yeah, that's, that's like probably going to be more and more popular as people get oversaturated with digital things and online things. It's like, let's go back to like analog, physical, slow, as slow as possible. Like there's going to be this pushback on everything being super fast and automated and AI and, and digital to like, hey, people are real and we can go and talk to them and send them mail.

[B]

Yeah. That was another big piece of this. Daryl Westerfeldt was there from the Mighty.

[A]

Team who you just were on his podcast. Yep.

[B]

Which you can watch. This is like one of the last two episodes or so. Two episodes ago. Yeah. But he put on like a pre event mastermind type thing. So There were probably 16, 20 people there and we were all in like little small groups at tables and just like talking about like challenges and like that kind of thing. It was similar to the thing we did at Craft and Commerce.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Um, with different crew. So it was fun.

[A]

Nice. Yeah, very fun.

[B]

Yeah, it was fun. That's always nice. But then Daryl did give a talk about how community is like more important than ever. Just because everyone's going to get so sick of AI and you can pump out a thousand articles a day if you wanted to. And it's just like, where do you stand out with that? Um, so aside from having like insanely valuable content. And he was talking about community being like another good piece of it. So that was interesting.

[A]

Like the growth Reverse Pro community.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Plug. I don't know if that was obvious.

[B]

Like you should get a physical plug. That's just like so funny.

[A]

Yeah, we do have a little community called the Growth in Reverse Pro Community that you should check out. If you are interested in newsletters and growing them and hanging out with us, then you should definitely join.

[B]

And dad jokes galore. They happen all the time. Yeah, no, but he also gave a talk later, which was great because he was talking about, you know, community and that kind of thing. And one of his quotes that I remember, he said, everyone always says that content is king. He's like, if content is king, then AI is storming in the castle. And I was like, oh, I like that.

[A]

Daryl said that.

[B]

Daryl said that.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And he, like, glossed over it so fast, and we were all like. Our jaws were on the floor. I was like, what? You should have paused on that moment for, like, 10 more seconds. Because we all were just, like, in awe. So I love that phrase.

[A]

That's interesting. It's a good metaphor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I gotta marinate on that.

[B]

Yes, it's a good one.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so we've talked about AI a lot. Physical newsletters. We've talked about crazy apps. What do you think if you had to say, like, aside from the AI thing, what was. What was the most valuable piece of information you think you got from the conference? Or maybe mindset shift?

[B]

Yeah, I think it was just like. Just what I said in the beginning. Like, you don't know who's listening, reading, enjoying your content until you actually put yourself out there and write or get on stage and speak and tell your story. I had two people come up to me immediately after my talk and say, please come on my podcast. The one is huge. And I'm like, okay, so that's going to be fun. Hopefully that pans out. But it's just like knowing that your words that you put on paper can then translate into something you can speak out and get you. There's, like, more of an impact when you're in person. And it's just. So I always talk about how, like, I hate speaking on stage, and it stresses me out the two weeks before. I'm like, a wreck. And I'm always like, I'm not doing this again. I'm not doing this again. And then I'm like, oh, that was actually worth it. Okay, fine.

[A]

You're like, oh, yeah, this is why I do it. I think that's. That's a good point and a good note. I'd love to. I'd love to do a talk someday. I just don't know what I would talk about. So. And it's like one of those Things that I am like, I would be so. I would be like, you a nervous wreck. Like, I do not want to be a public speaker, but I feel like I have to do it just to, like, conquer that fear someday. But I want to go back to the thing you said about you never know who's listening or who's reading. Right. I published an edition of my newsletter. I. I took a little bit of a summer, summer break, didn't publish for about six weeks, and I just sent an edition talking about our challenge and a few other things. And I got two replies and one of them was from Brendan Dunn. And I was just like, I just kind of like. And he didn't even really comment on the actual edition. He had a different question for me, but I was like, man, like, there's people that actually read this and open it and, and reply. So it, it was just a, a good reminder of like, hey, I should probably keep publishing and be thoughtful and remember that whenever I'm like, like, I, I honestly, I send that newsletter out, I'm like, I haven't published in six weeks. I'd be surprised if a handful of people actually read it. So that was a good, like, reminder that no people do listen and, and some do actually care what you're writing about.

[B]

That's awesome. I love that. And it's just a good reminder, like, reply to emails if you like the creator's work. Because it's. This is a hard game and it's not always easy when you get crickets after spending like hours and hours on something. So it's a good reminder to do that.

[A]

That it is. That it is.

[B]

Yes. No, I think the other thing I was going to say Will Reynolds came and he is, if you're not familiar, he's like, big in the SEO space. I knew who he was because I'm from Philly and he is a Philly based SEO agency guy. So he owns an agency called Seer Interactive. And he, I think I saw him speak in 2016 at a conference in New York about SEO, because that's what I went for my day job. And he's always, like, passionate. There's always cursing. He's always talking about the most interesting things when it comes to, like, the future of the space. And he was talking about how he's going straight, like, hard on social media and actual humans and not focusing as much on search engines and Google and all of that stuff. And this is coming from an SEO guy. Like, he's like, humans matter more than a freaking search algorithm. I was like, you're right. And he's like, so when I post something on LinkedIn and I get 30 comments, he's like, that means more to me than getting 10,000 random Google page views from bots or people who clicked over and then were like, this isn't what I wanted left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was like, just hammering home that concept. Like, he gave a bunch of other really cool ideas for growing with SEO, but I think the thing he kept going back to was like, social media is humans. Like, you can't. Yes, there are bots on social media.

[A]

And stuff and there's an algorithm.

[B]

Yeah. But the vast majority of people commenting and liking and sharing your stuff on social media are actual people.

[A]

Yeah. So unless you're on Twitter.

[B]

Just an interesting. And there it is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sorry, just had to jab that one in. No, I totally agree. I think that, like, it's called social media for a reason and despite the bot issues. And I joke about Twitter, you know, there's. There's bot issues on every platform. It just, it's more on others. But I think the, like, that, that really highlights the value of real people actually replying and engaging and sharing your content. And, you know, that's why we started up another social media challenge, like growth challenges, because that's just where. Not just about growing an audience, but where you can actually meet people. Right. Like, would you be at these conferences, talking, meeting all these people if it weren't for social media?

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

Probably not. Like, you might have published your newsletter, but would it have grown if you weren't, you know, active on social media? On Twitter, back in the day, we just had an episode about how you did that. And so you can hate social media for all the reasons that a lot of people do hate it, but at the end of the day, it is a very powerful medium to connect with people and engage. And you can, I kind of feel like you can choose to hate it and just have this negative nelly sort of mindset about it, or you can embrace it for what it is and just, you know, accept that. Yes, there are the bots and there's the reply guys, and there's the, the crap, the algorithm changes and all that. But at the end of the day, if you can have a bit of a half glass, full attitude towards social media, I think that's only going to do you favors in the future, approaching it with that mindset.

[B]

100% agree. And you even get feedback on your content. Like you have ideas for content, put them out as six different LinkedIn posts and see which one resonates more with people. It doesn't have to be likes or impressions, but see what people are commenting on and replying to and actually starting a conversation around and go write something longer form about that. Yeah, social media is such a great place to do that and I'm excited to get back into it with that.

[A]

Yes, totally. It's like we mentioned this in our onboarding call recently about it being like this really quick feedback loop. Right. So instead of spending hours and hours researching or writing an article in a post and then you publish it and it gets nothing, you could have maybe just like instead spent 10 minutes doing a social media post and seeing if like people actually resonated with the idea or with your opinion or your, you know, spiky point of view or whatever it is, and. And then gotten that feedback so much faster. So I think there's a lot of opportunity to leverage social media to just kind of test ideas. And this isn't. I'm not saying anything new here. People have been saying this for years, but I think it's worth repeating that. It's just such a great opportunity to test these things and see what is resonating and see what people are engaging with. And sometimes out of the comments sparks an even better idea or a different idea or something that you can just include in your next. In your next post as well. So I think there's way more positives and good reasons to use it than not.

[B]

Agreed. And I think even you kind of mentioned this offhandedly, but commenting on other people's posts, and if those comments do well, then write your own post about it. And if that post does well, then write a blog post and like it just goes down the line. And I think that's such a good, easy starting point for most people is like they're terrified to actually post something and like take a stand. But if you can just comment something instead on someone else's post, I think it's so much mentally it's easier to get through that. And then it's like, okay, out of the last 30 comments, which 1 got the most engagement? And then it's like, cool, go write a post about that and see if it resonates. If so, keep going. You know, it's like such a good way to get started.

[A]

Yeah. I think if you spend, take 50 minutes a day and whatever social platform of choice go through your feed and try to reply to maybe set a number or just set a time limit and reply to a number of Posts. And my guess is you'll come out away with at least one idea for your own piece of content. I know this isn't a social media episode, but Richard Vanderblam, who does the LinkedIn report, the annual LinkedIn report, I think he, I could be wrong exactly on this number, but he tries to reply to, I think 30 posts a day. And from that he just sparks like post ideas. And I can relate because the more people I comment on, the more ideas I get for, for posts. And yeah, usually they're like more opinion based types of posts, but the more those will spark. Right?

[B]

That's awesome. I'm gonna take notes. 30 a day. Okay. That's my new goal.

[A]

Maybe I should confirm that number before we. 30 a day seems doable.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. Except for when you think about like you actually want them to be good comments.

[A]

But yeah, yeah, that, that helps.

[B]

But no, I think, I think social media is just part of all of this, right? Like, even at the conference we're talking about like meeting people on social media and how you can get feedback loops like we were just talking about on social media. And I mean, there were tons of sessions. I was just looking at the, the agenda and of course there was stuff about, you know, LinkedIn and, and all kinds of other platforms of like, how to have a successful social media strategy. So I think that it's just like, it's an interesting thing. And yes, like you said, you can be grumpy about it or you can just get over that part of it and like, look at it as a growth platform and a place to meet people and connect and learn what's resonating with folks.

[A]

So, yeah, much better said than, than my spiel. Very succinct.

[B]

I thought yours was better. I was just summer summarizing, but I.

[A]

Think I like the word grumpy. Just like that approach, like, yeah, because there's people who just like social media stupid.

[B]

And like, I've said that before. I think we've even said that on this podcast before. Well, like there's seasons of being grumpy about it and it's fine. But if you can get back to a place of like, okay, for 30 days, I'm going to try and post every day. Let's just do that. And then from there you're like, okay, this was beneficial or this felt useless. Maybe you tweak your strategy for the next 30 days or you don't and you just do something else. But I think it's important to try.

[A]

There's Seasons for grumpiness. And we posted that in the wintertime. So I think that kind of makes sense because. Because it's time to be grumpy. I think, though, the part of social media that we're grumpy about more is like, my impressions have tanked. Like, the algorithm changed. Like, it's more about the businesses running these platforms, more so than obviously the people in them or the. The people that you're meeting. Right. Those are. That's like the best part. And that's always been a part that we appreciate and that we've, like, you know, that we've said that people should use them for those reasons as a. As opposed to others. But yeah, the grumpy part, I think, for me at least, is like, man, I used to be able to, like, get, you know, 3,000 impressions on a post and, you know, X amount of likes and whatever, and now it's like, you know, just like fell off a cliff. And that's usually the complaint I hear with social media, the frustrations behind the companies just like, making you basically pay for reach and engagement.

[B]

But then you look at, like, are you actually getting the same number of comments and like, the same number of real people talking to you.

[A]

And I think despite impressions, Lauren, despite.

[B]

Impre impressions, again, like, it's not the end all be all. I'm always trying to look more for, like, reply share saves. Those are really the important metrics. So if you can not focus on likes or impressions, I think you're gonna feel better about yourself.

[A]

I think the other thing too, we just had Nathan May on the podcast and he had a really. I love this when he. And he. He was quoting it from Sean Griffey of Industry Dive. And Sean says it's not how many, it's who. Right. So it's not how many people are on your email list, it's who's on your email list. Um, so you can have that same mindset when it comes to social media. It's not how many people are commenting, how many people saw my post, how many people liked it, it's who saw it, who commented, who liked it. I'm sure there's like three people in your social media audience that if they. Those three people commented on your post, that would do more than a hundred other people seeing it and commenting on it. Right. So I think that's really. It's a really valuable point and mindset to harness.

[B]

Yeah, I think one last thing, it kind of ties back to what I was talking to earlier, but it just, I just Remembered on the topic of like slowing down and like being more intentional and like adding some friction into your life. Andy Crestina, who I think he runs an agency. He's been in the space for a long, long time. But he said the things that stand out to him most in business are like getting handwritten notes. Like, who writes handwritten notes anymore? Like, send someone mail, that's a big deal. And he shared a picture of Ann Hanley had sent him a postcard that thanked him for speaking at her event. And she drew this nice little spiderweb on it because her talk was about Charlotte's Web or something. And I was like, that's so interesting. And taking the time to doodle and thank someone physically with a postcard is so underrated. So I think I want to start doing more of that.

[A]

Do you take people's mailing addresses who join the community, the Growth Universe Pro community?

[B]

I have some of them. I think the US based ones.

[A]

Okay, makes sense.

[B]

But then the other thing he was talking about which was interesting was collaborations, which we always talk about. We love collaborations. But he was saying that anymore he won't just publish an article, he'll publish like a co created article. Kind of like how Mario Gabrielli would do with his longer form S1 reports. He would get like six or seven people together to write this piece of content that because you have more interesting ideas and concepts and thoughts from other folks. But then you also have like six or seven people who are already going to share the thing. So he's like, why wouldn't you do that? The other piece of it is like with SEO, like, and I know SEO, whatever, it's changing, dying, whatever. But you rank higher when you have like authoritative people in your piece.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so in the medical space, if you have a doctor who actually wrote the thing, you're going to probably rank higher than if you were just like Joe Schmo writing about something medically, having multiple like rock star people commenting or sharing quotes about the thing you're writing about. It's like, okay, yes, please. It's like a no brainer. And then you're just like collaborating. You're building relationships with people. And I think that's an underrated thing that I think would be interesting to try out.

[A]

Akash Gupta do that as well. Or did he just have people guest post for him? Not for him, no.

[B]

He wrote with people. Yeah, Lenny does as well too.

[A]

Yeah, I, well, I know Lenny. He'll even keep the person as the. Like, he won't even have a Byline in the, in the article, he'll just have the person as the writer. But he, I think what he said, quote me if I'm wrong, is he just like spends tons of time going through their article to edit it to be like the quality that he needs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's different ways you can approach it, but that actually makes me think. I want you to collaborate with me on this article that I'm struggling with because I know this is something that you, it's something that you believe and that you're passionate about. So yeah, that could be fun. We'll tease it now and see if we actually get it done.

[B]

Look, that's fun.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I'm excited to hear more.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

But yeah, I think the biggest takeaway for me is just like go to more in person events, like shake someone's hand, talk to them, go grab lunch, get out of your normal routines and start learning from people in real life.

[A]

Meet people.

[B]

Meet people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Collaborations, relationships, all those things that we talk about growing for what we talk about with growth for newsletters. But it's like, hey, just like go actually get on a plane and go somewhere.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just I've only been to one and I was crafting commerce and I've gushed about it. I don't need to do that again. But just the amount of interesting people that I met, both who I knew about before I came to the conference and who I just met there at the conference, it was just, it's. You can't compare. It doesn't compare to anything you do virtually, online, digitally. Like the in person element is just tenfold more powerful.

[B]

Yeah. And so one thing I'm planning on doing, which I haven't told you yet, but I think I want to get, want to do like a 10 person dinner. 10, 15 person dinner in like Philly or New York.

[A]

Vancouver.

[B]

Probably not for the first one, but I do want to do this. Like just low stakes, like nothing crazy, but just like reach out to 10 people who have newsletters or building audiences and just like talk, like, let's share a meal. I think that would be so fun. So I do want to start doing that.

[A]

I think that would be great.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't know if I'll be able to make it, but. But you can report back. Okay, we'll see. We'll see.

[B]

Yeah, we'll do the first one and then kind of see where it goes from there. Yeah, maybe we'll do Vancouver edition or.

[A]

Even Seattle keep it. Or Seattle keep it Stateside.

[B]

Coming up on winter rainy season. Right. I'm not trying to do that.

[A]

True.

[B]

Maybe it would be spring is okay, but. Yeah, I want to start doing those smaller things. Test it out once and see what happens.

[A]

Yeah. Sounds fun. I like it. I like it.

[B]

Cool. I think that concludes the. I don't know. It's just fun to meet people in person. So I'm just gonna keep doing it and keep telling you about it every time I do. Cuz it's fun. Um, getting ready to go to audience Camp, which is Matt McGarry's 40 person.

[A]

Jeez. Yeah. That's like a week away.

[B]

It's not even a conference. Yeah. Yeah. Next Friday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Crazy.

[A]

And you are. Yeah. This is work. I. When. When do you. When you do work at home, I guess you. Are you speaking there as well at Audience Cap?

[B]

I'm a facilitator, so I'm helping like guide conversations and stuff. But I don't actually have to speak.

[A]

So you're a camp counselor for.

[B]

There you go. Oh, he should. He should have totally named them that.

[A]

I feel like he did, didn't he?

[B]

No, no, that's facilitator.

[A]

I think that was very low hanging fruit. Like he just needs hire a dad joke guy. And I will. I will do that for him.

[B]

Yeah. Because I'm listed as a facilitator. Want. Yeah. All right. I think that's it for this one.

[A]

That's the pod spod.