Spicy Newsletter Takes: Should You Really Do This?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Growth In Reverse
Episode: Spicy Newsletter Takes: Should You Really Do This?
Release Date: January 8, 2025

Hosts: Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop

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Introduction

In this episode of Growth In Reverse, hosts Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop delve into spicy takes on various polarizing topics within the newsletter space. The conversation aims to provide nuanced perspectives on often black-and-white advice, helping newsletter creators navigate strategies that can significantly impact their growth and engagement.

1. Using Lead Magnets

Discussion Overview:
The hosts debate the efficacy of lead magnets in growing newsletter subscriptions. Lead magnets, such as PDFs, checklists, or email courses, are offered to incentivize sign-ups.

Key Points:

• Chenell's Perspective:
  "It depends." ([02:07]) Chenell emphasizes the importance of alignment between the lead magnet and the newsletter content. Generic lead magnets may attract subscribers who aren't genuinely interested in the newsletter's niche, leading to poor engagement.

• Dylan's Insights:
  "Lead magnets can work for most newsletter creators, but not for every type." ([02:18]) He highlights that daily news-style newsletters might not benefit as much from lead magnets compared to niche, content-focused newsletters.

• Successful Examples:

  • David Perel: Transitioned from a PDF-style lead magnet to an email course, fostering regular engagement.
    "An email course can help build the habit of opening your emails regularly." ([05:47])
  • Eric Partaker: Utilized a free book as a lead magnet, integrating it into his broader product suite.
    "It's a lead magnet to get people on the email list, but it's also something that drives people directly into the rest of your product lineup." ([07:13])

Conclusion:
Lead magnets are effective when strategically aligned with the newsletter’s content. Testing different formats, such as email courses or substantial resources, can enhance their effectiveness.

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2. Double Opt-In: Yes or No?

Discussion Overview:
The debate centers on whether newsletters should implement double opt-in processes, which require subscribers to confirm their email addresses before being added to the list.

Key Points:

• Definition:
  Double opt-in requires subscribers to click a confirmation link after signing up. ([08:23])

• Challenges Highlighted by Chenell:
  "If someone misses that email or it goes to spam, they're never going to get any of your other emails." ([08:58])

• Dylan’s Take:
  "Traditional double opt-in can lead to losing 20-40% of subscribers." ([11:13]) He suggests creating a customized double opt-in process, allowing more control over subscriber confirmation.

• Legal Considerations:
  In certain regions, like Germany, double opt-in is mandatory for newsletters.
  "If your country has strict regulations around single and double opt-in, you want to make sure that you're considering that too." ([12:06])

• Practical Implications:
  Cleaning lists through re-engagement campaigns can help maintain quality subscribers without losing engaged users.
  "Never delete subscribers; instead, unsubscribe them if they’re not engaged." ([17:22])

Conclusion:
While double opt-in can reduce spam and ensure engaged subscribers, it may also lead to significant subscriber loss. A tailored approach, considering legal requirements and engagement strategies, is recommended.

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3. Cleaning Your Email List

Discussion Overview:
The hosts explore whether maintaining a clean email list by removing inactive subscribers is beneficial for newsletter performance.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s View:
  "There are some spots where you can't." ([13:22]) Highlighting platforms like Substack that limit list cleaning.

• Engagement Metrics:
  If a newsletter maintains healthy engagement rates, frequent cleaning might not be necessary.
  "You're deleting subscribers who you may have the chance to reach out to in the future." ([14:01])

• Re-Engagement Strategies:
  Implementing automated sequences to verify and re-engage inactive subscribers before deciding to unsubscribe them.
  "Ensure that you are either setting up an automation where every time somebody hasn't opened or engaged with an email in 30, 60, 90 days." ([14:54])

• Avoiding “Newsletter Suicide”:
  Blindly deleting subscribers without proper verification can harm engagement and growth.
  "You’re jumping off the building thinking these people aren’t engaged, but they very well are." ([16:30])

Conclusion:
List cleaning should be approached thoughtfully, using re-engagement campaigns to retain genuinely interested subscribers while removing those who are inactive to maintain high engagement rates.

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4. Pushing Subscribers to Your Website

Discussion Overview:
The conversation addresses whether newsletter content should be fully contained within emails or redirect readers to external websites.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Approach:
  "I have a little blurb about the longer form article, and then I have a button that says keep reading or go visit the full article." ([17:50]) This method prevents emails from being clipped and ensures content readability.

• Dylan’s Experience:
  Initially relying on platforms like Substack and Medium, he later transitioned to hosting content on his own website to better manage SEO and reader experience.
  "If you don’t have a website, you're just pushing content to another platform, which isn’t the best practice." ([20:03])

• SEO Considerations:
  Hosting full articles on a dedicated website can enhance SEO benefits, whereas relying solely on third-party platforms may limit visibility and control.
  "Google is changing. So who knows, maybe that's going to swing in the other direction." ([21:01])

Conclusion:
Redirecting subscribers to a personal or dedicated website for full articles is generally more effective for SEO and content management, enhancing the overall reader experience.

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5. Turning Your Newsletter into a Paid Newsletter

Discussion Overview:
The hosts debate the merits and challenges of monetizing newsletters through paid subscriptions.

Key Points:

• Dylan’s Stance:
  "Probably not." ([21:53]) He expresses concerns about the pressure of maintaining quality content consistently once revenue is tied to subscriptions.

• Chenell’s Perspective:
  Acknowledges successful examples like Lenny’s newsletter but emphasizes that such models typically require extensive expertise and established authority.
  "They have a community and other perks, not just content." ([23:25])

• Strategic Recommendations:

  • Implement a tiered subscription model with both free and paid options.
  • Ensure substantial value in paid tiers beyond just content, such as exclusive resources or community access.
    "He has multiple tiers, including one free option and others that offer additional value." ([25:05])

• Growth Considerations:
  Transitioning to paid subscriptions should occur after achieving substantial growth (exit velocity) to avoid stunting further expansion.
  "Hit exit velocity before you put up that paywall." ([25:34])

Conclusion:
Paid newsletters can be lucrative but require significant expertise, valuable additional offerings, and a solid subscriber base. They should be considered once the newsletter has achieved substantial growth and can sustain consistent quality.

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6. Testing Subject Lines: Necessary or Not?

Discussion Overview:
The effectiveness and practicality of A/B testing subject lines for newsletters are scrutinized.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Observation:
  "Most of the time it's like 0.02% difference. Was that worth the extra three hours?" ([29:12]) She questions the ROI of frequent A/B testing when the impact is minimal.

• Dylan’s Insights:
  Effective A/B testing should yield actionable data, such as identifying impactful keywords or phrases that consistently improve open rates.
  "If you test something specific about the verbiage, it can be useful." ([32:35])

• Best Practices:
  Focus testing on elements that provide meaningful insights rather than random variations.
  "Test things that you can actually get data back from." ([30:45])

• Limitations:
  Testing drastically different subject lines may not yield useful trends, making the exercise inefficient.
  "It's not gonna make as big of a difference unless you are learning something specific." ([32:35])

Conclusion:
While A/B testing subject lines can be beneficial if conducted thoughtfully with specific goals, indiscriminate testing offers limited value and may not justify the time investment.

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7. Including Ads in Your Newsletter

Discussion Overview:
The topic explores whether incorporating advertisements within newsletters can be a viable monetization strategy without alienating subscribers.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Take:
  "If you have a traditional newsletter model, you should start early with sponsorships." ([34:42]) Suggests integrating ads or affiliate links in a way that complements the content.

• Dylan’s Advocation for Affiliates:
  "Affiliates are the lowest barrier entry to test sponsorship advertising." ([35:44]) Recommends using affiliate links as an initial step towards incorporating ads.

• Alignment with Audience:
  Ensuring that advertisers or affiliates are relevant to the subscribers’ interests to maintain trust and engagement.
  "Make sure that the advertiser is very aligned with your audience." ([35:44])

• Sponsored Content:
  Subtle integration of sponsored sections or relevant affiliate links can monetize without disrupting the reader’s experience.

Conclusion:
Including ads or affiliate links can successfully monetize a newsletter if done thoughtfully, ensuring relevance and value to the subscribers. Starting with affiliates is advisable before scaling to direct sponsorships.

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8. Using Paid Growth Strategies (Paid Ads)

Discussion Overview:
The effectiveness of utilizing paid advertising to grow newsletter subscriptions is debated.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Strong Opposition:
  "You should never spend money on paid ads." ([36:33]) Argues that paid ads should only be considered once there is a proven content-audience fit and a clear ROI.

• Dylan’s Agreement:
  Aligns with Chenell, emphasizing the importance of having the subscriber experience optimized before investing in paid growth.
  "Don’t spend money until you have the content-audience fit and can break even." ([37:10])

• Strategic Investment:
  Paid ads should only be pursued when the lifetime value of a subscriber justifies the acquisition cost.

• Operational Readiness:
  Ensuring landing pages, welcome sequences, and overall subscriber experience are optimized to maximize engagement and retention from paid acquisition.

Conclusion:
Paid advertising for newsletter growth is advisable only after establishing a strong content-audience fit and ensuring that subscriber acquisition costs are sustainable relative to subscriber lifetime value.

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9. Implementing Referral Programs

Discussion Overview:
The utility of referral programs in growing newsletter subscriptions is examined.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Supportive View:
  "It's a good extra thing to have." ([40:10]) Suggests leveraging referral incentives that are directly related to the newsletter’s content, such as exclusive checklists.

• Dylan’s Best Practices:
  "Make the first referral reward easy to obtain." ([40:42]) Recommends setting low barriers for initial referrals to encourage participation.

• Incremental Growth:
  While effective for gradual growth, referral programs are not typically the sole driver of exponential subscriber increases.

Conclusion:
Referral programs can complement other growth strategies by providing incremental subscriber increases, especially when rewards are relevant and easily attainable.

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10. Utilizing Paid Recommendation Widgets

Discussion Overview:
The hosts discuss the controversial use of paid recommendation widgets that promote other newsletters in exchange for payments.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Reservations:
  "Platforms have gotten ridiculous with their requirements." ([42:36]) Criticizes overly restrictive conditions imposed by some services, making them impractical.

• Dylan’s Observations:
  Highlights the potential for low-quality subscriber acquisition and the dilution of subscriber attention due to multiple welcome emails from various newsletters.

• Reciprocal Recommendations:
  Prefers mutually beneficial recommendation swaps with trusted creators over transactional paid recommendations.

Conclusion:
Paid recommendation widgets present significant challenges and potential downsides, such as restrictive conditions and reduced subscriber engagement. Organic and reciprocal recommendation strategies are favored for sustainable growth.

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11. Running Giveaways to Drive Subscribers

Discussion Overview:
The effectiveness of hosting giveaways as a strategy to increase newsletter subscriptions is analyzed.

Key Points:

• Chenell’s Personal Experience:
  Despite offering $500 in cash, she retained approximately 56% of the new subscribers with a respectable open rate.
  "I ended up with 294 subscribers, 165 of whom are still subscribed." ([48:32])

• Common Concerns:
  "Unsubscribes and spam filters can skyrocket post-giveaway." ([46:37]) However, Chenell’s example counters this, suggesting that relevance and partnership among creators can mitigate typical drawbacks.

• Strategic Execution:
  Aligning giveaways with the newsletter’s focus (e.g., offering tools or resources relevant to list growth) can enhance effectiveness and subscriber retention.

Conclusion:
When executed thoughtfully and in alignment with the newsletter’s niche, giveaways can successfully attract and retain engaged subscribers. Collaborative efforts with like-minded creators further enhance the strategy’s success.

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Final Thoughts

Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop concluded the episode by inviting listeners to share their own spicy takes and experiences related to the discussed topics. They emphasized the importance of community feedback and suggested potential future episodes to explore these contentious strategies in greater depth.

“Put your spicy takes in the comments. Absolutely. Please.” ([51:42])

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Notable Quotes

• Chenell Basilio:
  "Until that point, you should never spend money on paid ads." ([00:07])

• Dylan Redekop:
  "Double Opt In Purgatory because they're kind of just sitting in this purgatory where they subscribed and never actually confirmed." ([11:13])

• Chenell Basilio:
  "Subscribers are willing and happy to subscribe and maybe they don't necessarily need that confirmation email as well." ([08:09])

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Timestamp Highlights

• 00:00-00:50: Introduction and declaration of a spicy topic.
• 02:07-08:13: In-depth discussion on lead magnets.
• 08:23-12:47: Exploration of double opt-in strategies.
• 12:53-21:36: Debate on cleaning email lists and pushing to websites.
• 21:51-28:02: Conversation on paid newsletters.
• 28:21-32:48: Subject line A/B testing insights.
• 32:58-35:50: Advertising within newsletters.
• 35:55-38:43: Paid growth through ads.
• 39:45-46:49: Referral programs and recommendation widgets.
• 46:29-51:07: Effectiveness of giveaways and final remarks.

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Conclusion

This episode of Growth In Reverse provided a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of hot-button topics in the newsletter industry. By addressing each subject with real-world examples, personal experiences, and critical analysis, Chenell and Dylan offered valuable insights for both novice and seasoned newsletter creators aiming to optimize their growth strategies.

Transcript

[Chanel]

Ooh, this is a spicy one. I feel personally attacked by this one.

[Dylan]

Don't be. Don't be personally attacked.

[Chanel]

You can probably get, like, 100 subscribers for, like, a dollar at this point. Some people open certain newsletters for the person. Doesn't matter what the title is. They're just gonna open it regardless. But until that point, you should never spend money on paid ads. Sorry, Matt McGarry. I say no.

[Dylan]

Chanel is getting spicy. I love it. I love it.

[Chanel]

I cannot wait for the comments on this one, because I know somebody is gonna be like, but wait, I did it. And every week and I get all these amazing results.

[Dylan]

I'm not going to argue with you.

[Chanel]

You're allowed to if you want.

[Dylan]

No, I can't.

[Chanel]

This is, like, the spiciest newsletter thing right now. This is, like, worse than politics at this point.

[Dylan]

Hey, welcome back to the Growth in Reverse podcast. My name is Dylan.

[Chanel]

And I'm Chanel.

[Dylan]

And we are back with another episode for you guys today. What we're going to talk about in this episode, specifically giving some sort of spicy takes on some maybe polarizing topics in the newsletter space. We're going to cover a few things today that we've heard people say, you should 100% do this or you should 100% not do this. And I think the great thing here with this conversation is we're going to provide a bit more nuance to the, you know, black or white, yes or no, do this, don't do this kind of conversation. And I think it's going to be an interesting chat about a few things that people often ask yourself, myself, or just general, generally online, about what they should or shouldn't be doing with their newsletters.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I like this topic. It was a good one. Uh, these are definitely questions I get all the time. And people are always looking for a do this, don't do that. And there's no middle ground. And I'm like, But there's always a middle ground. It's not that simple.

[Dylan]

We're going to start off with a bit of a. Probably one of the. The spicier, I guess, takes in the newsletter space where I've seen people, you know, bash this strategy, and people just like, say, you know, I wouldn't have grown my newsletter at all if it wasn't for this strategy to some degree. So the first one is, should I or shouldn't I use lead magnets for my newsletter? Quickly, off the top of your head, what is your very first initial reaction to that question?

[Chanel]

It depends.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I love it. I love it. The nuance has started already. How about I. How about I give a spicier yes, you should.

[Chanel]

Yeah, you definitely picked the spiciest one to start with for sure.

[Dylan]

I know we're coming out of the gate swinging.

[Chanel]

Yeah, for sure. Um, no, I mean, it's definitely for. I would lean towards. Yes, with a bunch of caveats in there, but yeah, I'll let you go ran on this one if you want.

[Dylan]

Sure. Well, I'll. I'll. I'll provide some caveats as well. So one thing I was thinking of when I was preparing for this episode and thinking about lead magnets and who might work for and who might not work for. I think generally for most newsletter creators and most verticals, a lead magnet can work. But I think when they're we're talking about a newsletter style that's kind of like a daily news broadcast. So like, you know, you think of the 1440s and the morning brews, those types of newsletters. I don't necessarily see a lead magnet being super useful or I don't really know how you would prep a lead magnet for that kind of a newsletter. So I think there's definitely some types of newsletters that it would not work great for. That being said, I think there are a lot of newsletters that would work great for. You've leveraged the strategy. I leverage this. Leverage the strategy and before we say yes, create a lead magnet and send it to everyone and grow your newsletter that way. I think there's a. A few caveats we should cover in One is that you're. You can't just create a lead magnet and send it out and hope that everybody who downloads it is going to be into your content. You have to make sure. You have to be strategic and obviously make sure lead magnet, the content lead magnet is really nicely aligned with the content that you're going to be providing. You don't want to have a super generic, say, checklist or PDF template, whatever it might be, doesn't really provide any value to your actual newsletter. Has nothing to do with your newsletter if it's super vague or general. And then your newsletter is like super focused and really niche. So that's kind of my first caveat. What are your, what are your thoughts?

[Chanel]

Yeah, 100% agree. I think this is where most people think about when they say, like, don't do a lead magnet because they're thinking about the person that's creating a random checklist just to get people on the email list. And then it has nothing to do with their actual content. They're sending every week because it's top of mind. I recently did the deep dive on Justin Moore and he gives away like extra sponsorship data in his email and his whole premise of his email list is helping you get more sponsors. So that is super related. However, when he first started his creator business online, he was trying to do all kinds of stuff and he was giving away like a finance checklist, like end of year tax stuff. And finance wasn't even like his bread and butter of what he was talking about. It was just some side benefit that people could use. So it was not related, it didn't do as well. Um, and he said he felt like he was just creating tens and tens of lead magnets that weren't actually getting him subscribers or the right subscribers. There's definitely nuance there.

[Dylan]

There is. And I think one other thing is when people think of lead magnets, they just think like this specific, like, you know, PDF download checklist. But lead magnets can be in all shapes and sizes. You've done, I think, five or six different deep dives where lead magnets have been like a really substantial strategy for growth for some of these creators who have 50,000 plus subscribers. And one that I thought was interesting was David Perel. David was using a lead magnet in the beginning and he went from using like a PDF style type of lead magnet and then he pivoted to creating email course. An email course, basically a free email course for his lead magnet. And that seemed to be working well. And then eventually he kind of stopped doing that for a bit and then he went back to them again. So I think you can see how with lead magnets, you definitely need to test them and see what is working. Don't just try one thing and write it off as, ah, lead magnet. Just don't work for me. Well, maybe, maybe they don't, but maybe you just need to try something new or something different too.

[Chanel]

Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the really smart things he did was he was using an email course too. He wasn't just using a PDF giveaway. I really like the email for email course format for a lead magnet because you're kind of building that habit with your readers of getting them to open emails regularly. So that's a really good way to kind of tease people into your content. Get them used to opening your emails versus a PDF where they download it once it lives on their computer and they never open it again.

[Dylan]

I think the nice thing too with an email course is you can can update it pretty easily without having to resend it to people with a PDF, you know, it's pretty static. There's not a lot of. You can't really change it once people have downloaded it. So I know my first lead magnet was like a 20 page PDF sort of thing about how to start on substack back when I was using substack and it did well and, and you know, it helped help grow my newsletter and my audience and it was very related to what I was talking about. But then about a year and a bit later, I created an email course because I'm like, I'm writing about newsletters and I'm writing a newsletter and I think an email course would probably get people into that habit, like you said, of seeing me in their inbox, opening my content, finding some value in it, and then staying on my email list as well.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I like it.

[Dylan]

Let's run through a few other quick examples of some of the deep dives you've done. Like Eric Partaker, for example, he did a free book as a lead magnet for his newsletter, which is like a ton of value. Getting people on your list. It's a lot of work. But that's one thing that, that really drove a lot of success for him.

[Chanel]

The free book that Eric was giving away, I really actually like that one because he was able to use that and take that one piece of content and he promoted that everywhere. He was on so many podcasts and I listened to most of them. It was a lot of research on that one. But he, in every single podcast, he talked about the same book and it was like his signature book and it led people into the rest of his like, product line up, if you will. But it was just super smart. It's like a lead magnet to get people on the email list, but it's also something that drives people directly into the rest of your product suite.

[Dylan]

So that is cool. That reminds me actually a lot of Michael Hauk. He used a term called like a Trojan horse basically into your business. So you leverage just an asset like that and it basically gets people into your ecosystem and everything you have to offer product services and all that. So I really, I really think that's smart and a lot of people could be doing a lot more of that. Shall we move on to the next topic or do you have any final closing thoughts on lead magnets?

[Chanel]

No, we could probably do a whole episode on lead magnets, so save it for that.

[Dylan]

Okay, here's another sort of spicy topic. Should you or shouldn't you use double opt in. And maybe we should make it clear what we're talking about when we say double opt in.

[Chanel]

So essentially, double opt in is when you essentially set it up on the backend with your email service provider, where somebody has to click a specific button or link to actually get added to your email list. Now, it seems pretty straightforward, but the problem with it is if someone misses that email or that email goes to spam, they're never going to get any of your other emails because the email service provider essentially says, well, that person didn't actually want this. We're not going to send them anything else. So unfortunately, that really can reduce the number of actual subscribers you get. So I think we both have a similar take on this, which is create your own double opt in.

[Dylan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Chanel]

Do you want to explain how that works?

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think. I mean, the first thing I hear, Eminem, in my head, you only get one shot. Do not miss your chance to blow it. Like, you get this one shot at getting in people's inboxes with a double opt in from your ESP provider. I should say. So if people don't actually click on that confirmation email, if it goes into their spam, if it gets buried in the promotions tab or just buried in their inbox, and they, you know, don't get around to opening and clicking it, that was your one shot. And, you know, you don't have the opportunity to reach out to them again. So that's why I like the idea of creating your own version of double opt in, where basically anybody that subscribes on your signup form is already confirmed, they're on your list, you can reach out to them more than once and then you can create your own. Basically, in your welcome sequence, you basically say, thanks for subscribing to my newsletter. You know, just confirm that you actually want to receive this. Click here, whatever, whatever the action you want them to take is so that you can confirm that they're there. This might be something you may want to do, at least make sure that they opt in themselves. I don't know your take on this, Chanel, is. But my thought is if people are organically finding your content and subscribing on your homepage and that sort of thing, quite likely they probably are willing and happy to subscribe and. And maybe they don't necessarily need that confirmation email as well. Whereas people who are getting subscribers via maybe lead magnets, or maybe they're in a referral program or they're getting recommendations, you know, kits, creator, network or through Beehive. And these people are ending up on their email lists and they don't necessarily know why they're on their list. They forget that they check the box in the. The to subscribe. I think those are more maybe the people that you'd really want to create that Double Opt in experience for on your end.

[Chanel]

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a really good point. I actually recently had to turn on Double Opt in, like the real one because I was getting. My home page was getting like blasted with um, some false emails and they were all like Yahoo.com addresses from like Britain somewhere.

[Dylan]

So interesting.

[Chanel]

Pretty interesting. So I actually had to turn it on. Uh, so my, my growth slowed quite a bit on that. But it seems like those people are a lot more engaged anyway, so pluses and minuses of it. Um, but yeah, I do definitely prefer having like that false Double Opt in. I don't even want to call it False Double Opt In. We should come up with a name for this. But I feel like it's going to.

[Dylan]

Come up multiple times, like a personalized Double Opt in or a customized Double Opt in where you're not just at the, at the whim of your esp, you can, you have more control. I think there's just maybe a shout to Matt McGarry who he's worked with a lot of big newsletters and run strategy for them and he's shared that like basically 20 to 40% of your subscribers will be lost to Double Opt In. I call it, I call it Double Opt In Purgatory because they're really just kind of sitting in this purgatory where they subscribed and never actually confirmed and you can't do anything about it. So 20 to 40% is pretty significant. And I'm. That's, you know, that range, that range is probably actually quite wider than that. But yeah, I think if you consider the ramifications of not being able to email 4 out of every 10 of your subscribers who've actually signed up for your newsletter. That really sucks.

[Chanel]

That's a huge number. Yeah, yeah.

[Dylan]

One, one last thing we should mention about Double Opt In. I was doing a, just a newsletter breakdown for another private community a few weeks ago and they were using Double Opt In. It was a newsletter based in Germany. And I said turn off your Double Opt In. Try, try this like your own version of Double Opt in essentially. And what I was told is in Germany it's actually mandatory to have Double Opt In. So you just want to make sure that if your country a You may not be able to because of your location or if there's like strict regulations around single and double opt in for newsletters or email. You wanna make sure that you're considering that too.

[Chanel]

Yeah, super, super smart to add in there because there are some different restrictions around the world, so.

[Dylan]

Cool. Okay, let's move on to the next one. So should you clean your email list or is there no point?

[Chanel]

Ooh, this is a spicy one. We actually had this kind of an off topic conversation in the community a couple weeks back, I think, and some people were like, well, I'm on substack, so I can't really clean my list, so what do you want me to do? And I'm like, well, that's true, but that kind of stinks for like your sp or people that you're actually trying to get good results for. I don't know. It's a, it's an interesting take because in my head I'm like, yeah, you cleaned your list. That's a thing. Why wouldn't you? But there are some spots where you can't.

[Dylan]

So I think the other thing that comes to mind is like your, your newsletter's growing engagement's the same, then maybe you don't need to clean your list. Maybe you're doing everything okay. People are unsubscribing when they need to or want to, and everybody else who's subscribed is, you know, opening your newsletter. I guess you could, you could argue that maybe cleaning your list, you're actually only hurting yourself because you're deleting people who you may have the chance to reach out to in the future and, or who may just not be interested in your product at this time, or your service or your whatever your content is. So I think that was one of the arguments that was kind of made too in the community, was that like, well, you're just deleting subscribers who actually might be engaged at some point.

[Chanel]

One of the things I always think about with this is the gist, the newsletter. It's like the women's sports newsletter. They actually talked about how, because it's so dependent on the sports seasons and the time of year, that instead of actually unsubscribing people, they will put them into separate segments and say, okay, we're going to come back to these people when NFL season restarts, because, you know, they're kind of not paying attention right now. But we don't want to unsubscribe them because at one point they were interested. So if you do have Kind of like a. An audience that might be interested at one point of the year, but not all points of the year. It could make sense to kind of like mute them for a little bit, for lack of a better word, and come back to them in a couple months. Whether that's like Matt Giovanisi, he runs swim University. He talks about pool care. People aren't really paying attention to their pool in December necessarily. So you don't necessarily want to be sending emails like that. But yeah, that one comes to mind as well.

[Dylan]

That's a good point. I guess we should also, like, maybe be a little bit more nuanced on this. When we say clean your list. Like, don't just delete subscribers or unsubscribe subscribers. Like, make sure you are either setting up an automation where every time somebody hasn't opened or engaged with an email in 30, 60, 90 days, whatever you decide is a sufficient amount of time. You're basically doing a re engagement sequence just to make sure that they are or are not engaged. I know, Chanel, you can speak for this too, because I think you don't turn on images when in your inbox. So people often assume that you're not opening their emails when in fact you are. And you get a lot of these, these calls. And I know they're a bit annoying, right? But at the same time, on your end, you're doing your due diligence, your due diligence as a newsletter operator, making sure that you're not just unsubscribing a whole bunch of people from your list who may or very well be enjoying your newsletter.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I often get emails from people who are like, Oh, I have 1500 subscribers on my email list because I just cut half of them. I'm so. Isn't that great? My open rate went up and I'm like, please tell me you had, like, sent some emails out to them and, like, made sure that they actually weren't reading. Because I did set up a re engagement campaign once. Not that I only used it once, but when I initially set it up, I got quite a few replies from people on services like Hey.com and they were saying, hey, I actually read every single email. But hey.com just hides all of those tracking links. So that's one example of that. I'm sure there are plenty of others. So you can't just like blindly delete people without, like, trying to make sure that you're actually ensuring that they aren't opening your emails.

[Dylan]

Yeah, no, that would be. That would be that's kind of like newsletter suicide a little bit. I think to some degree you're just like, you're jumping off the building thinking these people aren't, aren't engaged, but they very well are. The other thing I would consider too is when you, you can delete subscribers and you can unsubscribe subscribers. And I think there's, there's definitely nuance there. I would never delete a subscriber. When you do that, you're deleting all of the data that comes with that subscriber of when they first subscribed there, any tags or segments they might have been in. So if they ever were to resubscribe, you'd basically be starting from scratch. And so I think I highly recommend you to unsubscribe them at the end of your sequence or whatever you choose to do there. If they truly are not engaged, unsubscribe them. Have your sequence unsubscribe automatically. Do not delete subscribers, and most ESPs will not charge you for those unsubscribed subscribers.

[Chanel]

That's a good point. Okay, so this next one I wanted to clarify with you because you're asking, should you push people to your website in your newsletter or just publish everything in the newsletter? I feel personally attacked by this one.

[Dylan]

Don't be, don't be personally attacked. I mean, there's definitely a few things around this because if for some reason you've not read Chanel's newsletter, you, you can explain how you do it, but essentially you, you push people to your website.

[Chanel]

Yeah, so I have, you know, a little blurb about the longer form article, and then I have a button that says keep reading or go visit the full article. Because I mean, oftentimes these are like three to four thousand word posts. And like Gmail would definitely clip that email, especially with all like the screenshots and everything that I have in there. So, yeah, so it just, that's how I started and I just kept doing it. And so that's how I do it. I get emails at least once a week asking why I don't just publish the full article in there. And so like, now I have just a little snippet that I just paste into those emails and reply because it's like probably the most common question I get.

[Dylan]

That is too funny. Okay, so this is definitely not an attack on you. I wanted to basically highlight this because I, I felt this as well when I was writing my newsletter, when I was doing long articles. I'm like, should I just Publish the whole thing in the newsletter and then. And then let people read it all there or should I push them over to my website? And there's various reasons to change this. So when I very first started, I was on substack and you kind of had to share everything in the substack newsletter because that's. That was the experience. You could also read it on the site, but that was a general experience. I didn't have a website, so that's how I. I used it. Eventually I switched to ConvertKit, but I still didn't build a website. I was just pushing people to medium to my medium.com story and I would share a friend link so they would be able to read it ungated. They wouldn't have to be a medium member and pay that monthly fee so you could read it for free. But I still didn't have a website, so I was basically getting people pushed over to a different platform. So yeah, not the best practice. I wouldn't necessarily recommend people doing that. And then eventually I finally built a website and kind of caved to that. Cave to the pressure of having my own website. And I was then doing what you did. I would do a tease of the article and basically say like, read the whole article on my website. So I think at that point it can be personal preference, especially if you're not publishing three to four thousand words per edition. If you want people to just stay in your inbox and in their inboxes reading article, then by all means I'm probably tainted by my own reading preferences where I will often save a long article. If I see it in my email in my inbox, I'll save it for later. I'll want to save it for later. And if I just open it and close it and go back and think that I will read it later, I very rarely do.

[Chanel]

Interesting. So you save the emails or the articles?

[Dylan]

Well, I won't save. If there's no option to read it on a browser or on a website, I will probably not read the whole thing probably ever. So that's why I'm like, okay, let's at least host this somewhere so people can bookmark it, you know, clip it, whatever they want to do with whatever tool they want and they can come back to it later.

[Chanel]

Yeah, a hundred percent. That's why I do it.

[Dylan]

Also, how about SEO?

[Chanel]

SEO is huge. I mean, but there's also the. There's an argument that could be made that Beehive posts all of the full articles in the emails, but they also have them Living on a website, so you could technically say that that's like the same thing. So, I mean, you do get the benefit of SEO with that. I don't feel like Beehive is the best platform for SEO necessarily. Like, over and above your own, like WordPress or other website. Things are changing. Google is changing. So who knows, maybe that's going to swing in the other direction.

[Dylan]

Yeah, and I, I mean, it's a good point to make too. I. You know, Kit or ConvertKit, they also have kind of this hosting option and substack obviously as well. So there are ways to. To go about it even without your own website as well. But again, the argument might be. I know for the longest time my substack articles would rank higher. I posted the same one on Substack and on kind of my ConvertKit profile page, and they would rank higher on substack for the longest time. It's not always the best play to, to rely on those platforms for SEO, for sure.

[Chanel]

Um, and if they end up changing, like how the links are structured or anything like that, like, that can really damage your SEO ranking too.

[Dylan]

So. Yeah, good point. Anything else to add on this topic?

[Chanel]

No, I think we beat this one with a dead hoard or nevermind. You can take. You know what I was trying to say. Okay, this next one. Should you turn your newsletter into a paid newsletter?

[Dylan]

Ooh, should you or shouldn't you?

[Chanel]

Again, it depends.

[Dylan]

I'm going to say probably not. And that's coming from somebody who did consider running a paid newsletter and then thought, I feel like this is like I'm building my own prison, so to speak, because I feel the, the pressure of both creating something that's worth paying for and then having to create that. Not whenever I'm, you know, feeling like, inspired to create it, but because I have to create. I'm a slave now to this subscription and these people who are subscribing. So for me, it was less about, like, the financial gain that could come from it, but more of like a deterrent of like, not wanting this to be something that I am a slave to. So I think you could structure, you know, your, your subscription to be not necessarily just content all the time, but for me, that was, that was where I was like, no, I do not, I do not want to do this. And if you're considering it, you should just. I'm not saying it's not for you, because there's obviously, you know, your growth in reverse was inspired by a paid newsletter and somebody making a lot of money. With a paid newsletter, it's doable and it can be done, but you just have to consider the. The ramifications of going down that road.

[Chanel]

I think there is a place for it. I mean, obviously, Lenny's newsletter, like, we cannot not talk about that. Man's making millions of dollars a year from a paid newsletter. However, was he early and at the right moment and is it still a viable option? I don't know. But I mean, they're also. Yeah, Stratecheri. Again, early. His brain is insane. Like, that's. If somebody is like, if you're able to put out that much content that like the guy from Techery is able to.

[Dylan]

Ben Thompson.

[Chanel]

Ben Thompson. And at the same, like, depth and level and consistency. He's been doing it for like, decade almost.

[Dylan]

And he publishes pretty regular. It's almost a five day a week.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Or pretty more than just once a week kind of thing, right?

[Chanel]

Yep.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

But also you have to think like, these are B2B, either in depth or the person writing them has, like extreme amounts of experience in the space. Um, so I don't think it probably works for just like a random person's newsletter. But I don't know. There is a place for it.

[Dylan]

There is. I think. I think you called out expertise, essentially. Like, if you're an expert in a field, you could probably. You could probably get away with it. Um, it's going to be a little bit harder to build. You'll probably need a free tier to at least get initial subscribers, get some traction there. So you have a free tier and then a paid tier. That's usually the most common way people do it. But probably advise against just gating your whole newsletter or all of your content with a paid subscription. I think Lenny's. Now, I just actually was checking. Lenny's newsletter is gated to. You get one free email a month. And he's got three other tiers which I found interesting. We'll maybe throw it on the screen for people to see. But essentially he has this. These four different tiers of subscription model. Of course, one of them is free and the other ones are monthly annually. And then the I can expense this category and basically you can fill in how much you want to pay as a minimum of. I think it was $216 a year. And then you could just like put in, choose your amount that you want to pay. And I love how he's just basically calling out like, oh, yeah, I could, you know, pay for this and I can expense it.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And that's why I wanted to call it the B2B side of things, because I think that's just a big piece of this. The other thing I do want to caveat is, like, I see a lot of creators. They. They're like, I hit a thousand subscribers, I'm gonna go paid. And I'm like, ooh, you're really capping your growth once you do that. So I would almost, like, just make sure you're hitting exit velocity before you actually put up that paywall, because you can kind of see it in some of these growth trajectories. It, like, kind of. Kind of slows down some things. So just make sure you've hit that escape velocity before you. Before you do that.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And I think the paid subscription people see the dollar signs too, with it and see people like Lenny and Mario and Ben Thompson and think, I can make, you know, lots of money or enough at least to support myself to write this. But I think paid subscription should just be looked at, at least in the short term, as more of, like a. A way to subsidize some revenue. It shouldn't be. I don't think you're. I would be impressed if you could make it, like, your main revenue stream from the beginning. I think there's. There's other ways you could do it. And paid subscription could be, like, a portion of your revenue. I. I just. I wouldn't want people to see what other people are doing, like, the people I mentioned, and be like, oh, I can make six figures in, you know, next year with a paid subscription model.

[Chanel]

Yeah. I think the other thing to call out is, like, Lenny's paid portion of this is not just content. Like, he has a community. He has all this other stuff included. Um, and I actually was talking to somebody named Jeff at a conference couple. I guess it was a while ago, six plus months ago. But he was like, should I start a paid newsletter or should I start a paid community? And I was like, in my view, they're the same thing. Like, you have. You could. There is a world in which you can equate them in your mind of like, my paid newsletter includes community. It includes all this other stuff. But most people do think of paid newsletter as just like a substack where, like, part of it's paid, part of it's free. That's it, just content. So, I mean, there are different takes on that as well. But, yeah, this is definitely a nuanced discussion.

[Dylan]

It is. I like. I do like the model of providing. Back when I was at Sparkloop, we We chatted with a guy, I think his name was Eric, and he, he ran a newsletter about basically ideas that were getting really popular on Google Trends. And so what he did was he, he'd provide a free version of that newsletter where he'd like, here are three business ideas or one, sorry, one topic that's like kind of exploding on Google Trends and here are three different businesses you could do. And so he'd give you kind of like the basics around it. And then he said, subscribe to my paid tier and I'll give you like way more in depth strategy of how you could really actually go about doing this and how I would do it if I was to build out this business. And so I think, I think when you can offer that level of detail or that extra tier of information, education support, that's where you can really drive some value for your paid subscription as well. Anything else to add?

[Chanel]

No, I think that's, I mean all of these, we could go on for hours with each one. So.

[Dylan]

Yes.

[Chanel]

So this next one is should I bother testing my subject lines? So within a bunch of tools like Beehive and convertkit at least you are able to do like an AB test of different subject lines. I know with Beehive you can actually do, I think ABC testing and do even more subject lines.

[Dylan]

You can do four.

[Chanel]

Oh, four. Okay, stand corrected.

[Dylan]

Um, yeah, that's maybe more even, but I've seen people test for and show the results on Twitter and stuff like that. So shout out to to Michael over at Body Brain. He does that all the time.

[Chanel]

Nice. Yeah, I mean my, this one is tricky because I think some people open certain newsletters for the person. Doesn't matter what the title is, they're just going to open it regardless. So I don't think AB testing matters as much in those cases. However, when you're just starting, you're getting off the ground. I think it can be an interesting way to get more opens, especially when people are just like building trust with you. At this point, when I test my subject lines, I usually don't actually see that big of a difference. Like most of the time it's like 0.02% different. And I'm like, was that worth the extra three hours of waiting for people to get this in their inbox? Probably not.

[Dylan]

No, I agree. I think the trade off is it can, it can definitely be worth it in some cases. And I think when you are doing maybe a product launch or you're really optimizing for, you know that like X amount of people. If X amount of people open, we'll get X amount of conversions. And like, you've really kind of figured out this. This strategy for launching a product, then. Then I could see it definitely being useful. You want to optimize kind of every step of that process. But for a weekly newsletter or even a few times a week. Newsletter, daily newsletter, even. So unless you're actually testing a specific element, I would say of that subject line, I think it might be a waste of time. An example of that is I saw somebody asking, you know, which of these subject lines is better? Again, also on Twitter, and they had, you know, four different versions. And they were kind of like four very different versions of the subject line. And I'm kind of like, well, even if you pick a winner, it doesn't really tell you anything about the results, right? Because there's not like one omitted certain, a certain word or like, for this one, it was property values. So it was like one of them had property values in it and the other one, the other three didn't kind of like it. Just my. My whole thing with testing subject lines is testing test things that you can actually get data back from. Like, oh, when I shared for your newsletter example, Chanel, if you share that somebody had, you know, $500,000 in revenue, if you took that out of the subject line, probably the. The A B test that had that $500,000 revenue in it would probably win. Whereas if somebody's just testing different sort of random ideas in their subject line, I think that's where this feels pointless to me, actually.

[Chanel]

I really wish that Kit would let you a B test your welcome emails and your welcome sequences, because those are the emails that really can make a big difference, especially over time. Whereas a one off send is like, like you said, unless you're learning something specific about, like, different verbiage that you can use moving forward, it's not gonna make as big of a difference. However, with the welcome emails, the welcome sequences, you can absolutely, like, make headway on that kind of. That kind of thing. But yeah, yeah, I think the only time I've really successfully or been happy with the AB testing results was like, how to get more newsletter subscribers versus how to grow your email list and like, seeing which one actually performed better. So I don't know. I think it's just interesting to kind of test those verbiage. Yeah, I don't even know what I was saying there. We're on this one today.

[Dylan]

I know, right? I know what you mean, though. Like, you tested basically the Term email newsletters or email list versus newsletters. Right. And see which one resonated more with your audience. And that's something, especially if you're in the beginning, you're trying to figure out what people are interested in or catering to or what kind of terms they like. That's where I think a B testing can work really well. But I just, yeah, if you're just kind of throwing three or four or even just two different email subject lines that are totally different and you can't really extrapolate anything from the results except that, you know, oh, this one was a little bit more popular. So it's going to all the inboxes after my, you know, two hour, three hour window. Like, yeah, that's, that's a bonus, I guess. But at the end of the day, you're still back to the drawing board. When you go to send your next email, you're like, I don't know, I'm going to throw two more subject lines at the wall and see which one wins. I think there should be a way to extrapolate some, some data from the results and then use that going forward to just keep improving your subject lines.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I cannot wait for the comments on this one because I know somebody's gonna be like, but wait, I did it. And I do it every week and I get all these amazing results and it's like, that's awesome. But I think there is some nuance to whether it's actually beneficial or not.

[Dylan]

I think that's why this episode's so fun, is because everything we say, somebody's gonna have a counterpoint to it. And that's, that's why this topic is perpetually interesting.

[Chanel]

Yes.

[Dylan]

Okay, so this next one is, should I have ads in my newsletter? This is usually more of a question for somebody who's just starting out, but I think there's a fear, an unfounded fear that if you put an ad in your newsletter, then people are going to unsubscribe or not read it or never open your email again or think you are an evil marketer when that is not the case. You've talked about this in the past. Josh Spector has talked about this in the past, and I think you referenced him when you decided to kind of put ads in the newsletter as well, where it's like, he just ran a poll saying, would you like ads in my newsletter or would you not like ads? And would you be interested in running an ad in my newsletter to the X amount of subscribers I have? And I think he was pretty surprised at the results. And there was only a small fraction of people who are basically like, no, do not put ads in the newsletter. I'll leave it there. Because I think, like I said, you referenced this in the past. So what is your take on this one?

[Chanel]

Yeah. I think. I think the only reason you wouldn't want to put ads in your newsletter is if that is never going to be a monetization strategy that you want. Like, if you have this signature product that you're trying to sell and that's the only thing you want to make money from, great. Don't put ads in your newsletter. But if you're more on like, the traditional newsletter side of things where, you know, you essentially, you eventually want to have sponsors in your newsletter to supplement your income and like, make sure that you're providing good content without actually charging people for it. I think that you should start earlier than you think you need to. And even if it comes down to you putting in an affiliate link for a product you use or something like that, you can use it as like a sponsored section and just say, like, hey, I am. You know, I use this product. Here's my affiliate link. And have people sign up that way. And then they're getting used to having a sponsor in your newsletter. But you don't necessarily have to go try and sell the space before you do that.

[Dylan]

So totally. I think affiliates are like the lowest barrier entry for almost everybody to kind of test out this whole sponsorship advertising, kind of dipping your toe in that. In that realm. Because, yeah, it could be hard when you only have a few hundred subscribers. You're just starting out. Even under a thousand could be tricky to get a sponsor and the, you know, the work back and forth with it for maybe a $25, $50 sponsorship spot. That may not drive the clicks in revenue that either you or the sponsor want. It's a lot of work. And I think dipping your toe with affiliates is a really smart way to do it. I think there's one other point too to make about making sure that the advertiser and or sponsor is very aligned with your audience. It sounds like common sense, but I think it's worth repeating that like, you don't just want to throw in anybody who's willing to pay you money to go in your newsletter. You want to make sure that there's actually going to be value there from. From the sponsor to your audience and vice versa.

[Chanel]

100 and we should probably do a whole podcast episode on how to do your sponsorships better.

[Dylan]

We probably should we? Probably should.

[Chanel]

Okay, next, should I use paid growth to grow my newsletter? I'll take this one because I have a background in paid ads. I would say not until you're able to find content audience fit to the point where you know that if you get a subscriber, you're making $3 on the back end, you're making $10 on the back end or whatever that number is to allow you to say, okay, I can go to Facebook ads or meta ads or whatever you want to call it. I can spend up to five to get a subscriber and I know I will break even and or make money. But until that point, you should never spend money on paid ads. And I will say that over and over again. Sorry, Matt McGarry. I say no.

[Dylan]

Chanel is getting spicy. I love it. We're not. This is a. Not a non nuanced, nuanced take. One of the rare non nuanced takes we've had in this, in this episode.

[Chanel]

I'm sure there's a nuance to it, but I feel like for the most.

[Dylan]

I don't know, there is.

[Chanel]

Smaller creators should not be using paid ads until they have that one way.

[Dylan]

You could, I guess, look at it. What's your take on this? If you were driving, say a little bit of revenue with your newsletter, you maybe didn't figure out all of your customer lifetime value numbers and all that sort of stuff yet, but let's say you're making like a hundred bucks a month on your with your newsletter, however that revenue is coming in. What if you just reinvested that into growth?

[Chanel]

I would still argue that it's probably a waste of money until you figure out a, is the content that you're already creating something people want to read every week and they're not just going to unsubscribe after like a day. B, I don't know. I mean, I do think reinvesting is great. Like, it's a great strategy, but I just want to make sure you're spending that money wisely.

[Dylan]

Yeah, that's smart. I think the other thing you'd want to strongly consider is that you have the rest of the subscriber experience really, really nailed down. Like, landing page needs to be super good if you're paying to get people to go to it. The after you subscribes, experience the thank you page, the almost there page, the confirmation emails, the welcome emails, the welcome sequence. Like that really needs to be buttoned down, optimized. Whatever word you want to use to make sure that any money you're spending to get that subscriber is they're going to have basically the best chance of engaging, signing up and staying subscribed.

[Chanel]

I would say that probably the only caveat, I guess I will backtrack here a little bit is if you have an unlimited budget because you've made millions in another venture and you're just like, well, I'm going to figure this out one way or another. Let me just get as many subscribers as possible. Great. More power to you.

[Dylan]

Ollie Richards comes to mind. Is that who, who is bouncing around in your head there?

[Chanel]

Definitely not, but that is a good example. But also like, if you, you know, if you're already like a semi respected celebrity in your space or have tons of experience and people are just going to follow you because it's, you sure go spend money. But if you're a new creator, you're testing out this new venture, you don't know if you want to stick with it. I would not spend money on paid ads.

[Dylan]

I'm not going to argue with you.

[Chanel]

You're allowed to if you want.

[Dylan]

No, I can't. I, I would 100% agree. So I'm, I'm in the same boat. Um, which maybe doesn't make for the most entertaining episode, but for this one, I'm not gonna argue with you.

[Chanel]

We'll have Matt McGarry come on in and tell us otherwise.

[Dylan]

But hey, let's do it. I love debating stuff like this because quite often I will be validated, maybe in some things that I've thought, but also very exposed to things that I hadn't competent. And different variables and different experiences are like, no, this is the way you have to do it. And someone's like, actually, I really was very successful at doing it the opposite way. And you go, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. So yeah, I think there's a. As long as the debates are friendly and respectful, then I'm all for it.

[Chanel]

I keep bringing up Matt. I, I, he's a great person. I respect him a lot. I just say that because I feel like a lot of people, especially in the, the newsletter space or look to him as like, he's always saying, run paid ads like starting yesterday. So.

[Dylan]

Right.

[Chanel]

You know, that's why I bring him up. But I definitely respect his opinion. So we'll have to get him on here.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I agree. All right, should we do a few more here? Some like rapid firey ones.

[Chanel]

All right, let's do it.

[Dylan]

Okay. How about referral programs? They were all the rage about 2019, 2020 Morning Brew grew their newsletter in part on the back of a Morning Brew mug you would get if you recommended five friends. And so it was like referral programs are the way to grow your newsletter. Sparkloop was born out of this, out of this idea. So should you use a referral program to grow your newsletter?

[Chanel]

Sure, I think it's a good extra thing to have. I wouldn't go spending money on trying to like design mugs or shirts or anything, but you can find a way to even give away a lead magnet via referral program. Say hey, refer one person and you get this awesome checklist that I put together. That's great. I think a lot of people used to look at this as like the way to grow your newsletter, whereas I think it's more of like a extra type of thing. Like it's going to help you grow incrementally, but it's not going to be that one thing that you know, explodes your newsletter overnight.

[Dylan]

I agree. I think the maybe a best practice, as much as I kind of hate that term for referral programs is like make that first referral reward very easy to obtain or attain. So make it like one or two referrals as opposed to making it five or ten to get your your first reward because that just kind of deincentivizes people kind of right off the bat. Uh, should you use paid recommendations widgets?

[Chanel]

Paid. Okay, so why don't you explain what paid recommendation widgets are.

[Dylan]

So if you've ever subscribed to a newsletter on substack, a beehive newsletter, a just about any newsletter these days, convertkit based newsletter, you will quite often see this pop up appear saying or a new. You'll be taken to a new page where it says hey, you should also check out if you like my newsletter, you should also check out, you know, XYZ different newsletters. That's one way that I know Lenny has even written about. He grew his newsletter on substack just like kind of skyrocketed back in 2022 when they launched that feature. And so other ESPs have kind of followed suit and created that functionality for their users. So kind of some debate around whether you should actually use this and grow your newsletter that way or if you should use it and monetize your newsletter that way because it's, it's like a, a double edged sword. Right? You can use paid recommendations which is to be featured in there to grow your newsletter and you can also use the paid recommendation widgets to earn revenue for your newsletter. So I guess I wasn't clear on the question whether you should use them in one way or the other, but I'll just leave it open. Like, what do you think? Yes or no? For. For both growing and earning.

[Chanel]

I don't know. This is like the spiciest. This is like the spiciest newsletter thing right now. This is like worse than politics at this point.

[Dylan]

It's. It's the. Yeah, it's basically you're a Democrat or Republican when it comes to your take on this. Essentially you're one side or you're the other. There's no middle ground.

[Chanel]

So I. I guess if we can explain the pros and the cons a little bit. Sure.

[Dylan]

Okay, let's do it.

[Chanel]

So I would say the pros to using a paid recommendation widget for monetization. So you're earning. If I were to put it up on mine and say, hey, you should subscribe to these three and I get paid for some of them. If you subscribe, I think it's a low barrier cost to. Or a low barrier way to actually earn a little bit of revenue. I would say the frustrating piece to this side is that I think these platforms have gotten. So I'm going to say it ridiculous with their, like the things that they require from these subscribers. Like, some people set these up and they could be like, okay, they have to open every single email I send for the next 365 days before you get paid your $3 or whatever.

[Dylan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chanel]

They have to be from Texas, New York or California. It's like crazy at this point. So I. This is why I have never actually. I think I did it a little bit in the early days, but I have not since used a paid recommendation widget because it's turn revenue to earn revenue. I do it for. It's almost like a swap with friends. Like, I don't actually get paid for those, but I will swap with friends and have them recommend me and I recommend them. I think that's more of a. I don't know. It feels better to me to actually do that because I know the people I'm recommending, I don't know, they're just like good people. Their content's good. So I know I'm steering people in a good direction.

[Dylan]

I like the reciprocal nature of it as well. It's. It's smart.

[Chanel]

I guess I kind of went off on a tangent there.

[Dylan]

No, I love it. I loved it. You're fiery. It was good. What about. Okay, so what about for growth then? Should you use paid recommendations to grow your newsletter?

[Chanel]

I mean, because of the ridiculous parameters you could put on them. Sure. Because you can probably get like 100 subscribers for like a dollar at this point. And I, I'll be fair and say, like I haven't looked at the back end because I haven't. I'm not going to sit there and spend money to do this right now. But yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I've, I've, you know, working for a business that this was one of their main offerings or features. It was really interesting to see how people were using them. I won't get into obviously too much detail, but you can, you can definitely grow your newsletter to a path where you are weaning out say low quality subscribers, if you will, and only paying for the ones that actually engage. That being said, there's debate about how if those subscribers, if they're actually engaging. And I think like you really touched on the parameters that you need to fulfill for your subscriber to, you know, run through. They got a click or they've got to open and they only have so much time to do it before you get paid like you're $2 for that subscriber. It is to the point where it can be very, also demotivating like we talked about earlier. It's like I'm not really incentivized to share this newsletter because I know like I'm not gonna actually get money, get money sharing it when somebody subscribes. So yeah, I could see, I could see being both sides of the coin. But it's, it's definitely a very interesting topic. Another episode we could probably go deep, way deeper on.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I mean there's the argument that you're, I don't know, you're getting someone to sign. You've done all the hard work to get someone to sign up for your list. Why are you sending them to other people? They're essentially going to end up with 3, 4, 5 welcome emails at once, including yours. So why are they going to stick to your email? That's an another whole rabbit hole to go down. But I don't know, I don't think.

[Dylan]

There'S a limit to some of these platforms, how many you can put in your recommendations. So if somebody just says yeah, subscribe to all of them and then they could have basically their whole inbox is just all these welcome emails. So yeah, not the best, not the best experience for sure. And you're, you're kind of Cannibalizing, I guess, the attention that you could be getting all for yourself.

[Chanel]

So, yeah, I mean it. There is a point to say that people have successfully grown their newsletter off of this, and I'm sure it works for some people really well. But there's way too much nuance for me at this point to jump in.

[Dylan]

So that is fair. How about we just end on this one? Should I run giveaways to drive more subscribers?

[Chanel]

Hold on. I'm going to go look at my stats for the one giveaway I did with a couple of people. You can rant about this until then if you want.

[Dylan]

I don't have a huge rant on giveaways. My rant would be, don't do it now. It'd be funny if you pulled up your data and you're like, actually, this was really successful. But what I've heard anecdotally, more so than anything from various newsletter operators, is they run a giveaway. They get a whole bunch of subscribers right away. It looks good to them, to their bosses. If they're doing this for a business, they're growing the newsletter, it's great. But then it's like, oh, our open rates have plummeted. We are now going into spam filters. We are getting a whole bunch of not even cold subscribers, but just everybody's unsubscribing. So our. Our list went way up and now it's gone way back down again. And I think you're just incentivizing the wrong thing for subscribers at that point. So I think there's a way to do giveaways for sure that can benefit you and keep people engaged. And on your email list, rewarding them with a physical product that has nothing to do with, say, your business or your content is probably a bad way to go about it.

[Chanel]

I did one giveaway, and this was. Wait, this is a long time ago. So this was March of 2023. So I was three months in. Three months in four months.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Way early days. Um, initially from that, what we did, it was five newsletters, including myself, or I was the sixth one. I forget. But we each put in a hundred dollars, so the winner of this giveaway got 500. Um, so each of us. I forget how. I think it was PayPal. Yeah. Yeah. Cash.

[Dylan]

Wow. Okay, interesting. Not even like an Amazon gift card. Just like, no, there's some cold, hard transferred cash.

[Chanel]

So we each, like, promoted this in our newsletter and said, you got. I'm forgetting all the details. It could have been like two prizes. I don't remember. But I remember at the time I got. I ended up with 294 subscribers. I think it was 165 of those are still subscribed to my newsletter. And we are.

[Dylan]

It's over half long.

[Chanel]

Yes. Okay, so they're still. The open rate for these people is still at like 34.7%, which isn't great, but it's not bad.

[Dylan]

34% isn't too bad for, I'd say, people who signed up on a giveaway.

[Chanel]

And this was 18 months ago.

[Dylan]

Wow.

[Chanel]

20 months ago. And so there's still 165 of them. So I paid 100 bucks, so that's pretty good. Oh, my God. Are we ending this spicy episode with, like, the one that I would normally say, don't ever do this. And I'm like, yeah, it's great. So normally I would say, yes. Make sure it's, like, super relevant. You're giving away, like, you know, six months to beehive or six months to kit or something like super related to what I talk about, which is growing your email list. However, I did not do that. But it still worked out okay. And I think it's because the creators that I partnered with were all, quote, unquote, building in public. Like, we were all in the same space. The people who followed us were very interested in growing an audience and a newsletter. So I think it worked out pretty well. Yeah, I'd actually be interested to see how many of those other newsletter, like the other creators, like, if they're seeing similar results.

[Dylan]

Do you know if they're even still publishing the newsletters?

[Chanel]

I know one of them sold their newsletter. Christian. I'll have to reach out and see.

[Dylan]

Could be. Could be an interesting conversation. I think there's. Yeah, there's definitely a way to incentivize it. Like you said, six months free to beehive or like, or kit or whatever platform or even, like, if you have a paid tier. I mean, like an incentive. Could be like a free annual membership or something like that, or 50% off, whatever. You know, like, you could definitely be creative with how you want to structure it, but as long as it's like, super focused on your newsletter and your content that you're creating, then it would make a lot more sense. A hundred bucks cash. I mean, that. That is driving the wrong incentives. Sign up so you can get money.

[Chanel]

So good.

[Dylan]

I love it. I love it. We live and learn.

[Chanel]

Could you tell I was a new newsletter newbie at this point?

[Dylan]

I mean, at least you partnered with people to do it. That was. That was smart. Collaborating, building relationships. So that was probably the biggest benefit out of all of it.

[Chanel]

Yeah, for sure. That is not how I thought we were going to end that. That section there. I was like, oh, giveaways? Definitely not. Then I was like, wait, let me look up my results.

[Dylan]

Sometimes the. Sometimes the results aren't what we expect. So I would have said, yeah, do not do giveaways. But you've. You've proven me wrong, Chanel. You proved me wrong. Maybe it can work. Yes, maybe it can work if your content is as good as yours and you're willing to pay 500 bucks for subscribers. So, I mean, then. Then you could definitely go about it.

[Chanel]

For sure.

[Dylan]

There's probably more topics we could talk about here, but why don't we wrap it at that? And I just. I don't know about you, but I'd love to hear what people have to think about these topics, because I'm sure there's people on both sides of the fence for a lot of these things. So definitely inviting people to kind of call us out on a few things or share your feedback with us on. On what you thought about some of these topics or what your experience is with some of these topics.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And if we get, let's say, like, 50 comments on YouTube or something, we'll do another one of these episodes. We'll just curate more of these spicy takes and maybe bring some other people on to share their ideas around it.

[Dylan]

Absolutely. Yeah. Put your spicy takes in the comments. Absolutely. Please. It.