← Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
Growth In Reverse: Newsletter & Email Growth
The #1 Newsletter Metric You Need To Pay More Attention To
00:43:36
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- [00:01]
A
Hello and welcome back to the Growth in Reverse podcast. I'm Chanel.
- [00:04]
B
And I'm Dylan.
- [00:05]
A
And today we're going to talk about the most important metric you should be paying attention to as a newsletter operator or someone who is running an email list and that I guess we'll get there, but. How are you doing, Dylan?
- [00:17]
B
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. It's. It's a Monday here on the wet west coast. We're fully entrenched in fall. It's raining, so I will not see the sun again until probably April.
- [00:26]
A
So.
- [00:27]
B
So yeah, doing well. How about you?
- [00:29]
A
That's a buzzkill of a way to start an episode. Dang, that stinks. I didn't realize that happened already.
- [00:36]
B
Yep. Yeah, we're fully. We're into it. We're into it.
- [00:40]
A
And over here it's like be in sunny later this week, which is crazy. It's going to be October. That's wild.
- [00:46]
B
But that is only mildly jealous.
- [00:49]
A
I'll try not to rub it in too much.
- [00:51]
B
Thank you. Thank you.
- [00:53]
A
So I guess let's get. Let's just jump right into it. Right? So the most important metric people should be paying attention to. A lot of people probably think like open rates. Like you hear people talking about their huge open rate, 60, 70% open rate. Their click rate maybe is a little bit better than open rate, but we think there's a better metric to pay attention to.
- [01:12]
B
Right. And it's subscriber count.
- [01:14]
A
Nice. Make sure the number goes up as fast as possible at all costs.
- [01:18]
B
That's all that matters. Yep. That your first a hundred thousand subscribers as fast as possible. No, obviously we're joking. Subscriber count is. Is important and it depending on, you know, what the goal of your newsletter is and how you're monetizing. But we do think that that's. That can be a distraction, a bit of a vanity metric. There is. There's something else that we think is at least directionally more important for sure. And do you want to bury the lead or stop burying the lead or should I.
- [01:42]
A
Yes, I will reply to that. Because the most important is replies. The metric that is most important is getting replies. So if you can get more people to reply, you are on a great path. Recently I asked the newsletter subscribers of mine how what I could help with if there was anything they were struggling with, which we'll talk about that later. But one of the things that came up so much in those replies was how do I get more engagement? How do I get more replies? It Feels like I'm talking to a ghost list, like, there's nobody there. And it gets, I don't know, disheartening after a while when nobody replies to your emails. So we wanted to tackle that topic today.
- [02:22]
B
Yeah. And there's a lot of reasons why getting replies is important and there are different ways to do it. But I. I can relate to this too, because I've. I've sent out many newsletter editions and there's been a few instances where I was like, oh, wow, this. This is getting a lot more replies than I thought it would, and that's great and it's a great signal. Uh, but there are way too many times where I've sent out an edition and it's had a solid open rate, like hitting up around 50%. Clicks have been there. Nobody's really replied, or not many people, if at all, have. So this is a topic that is, you know, near and dear to me too, because I want to increase this, as I imagine a lot of people probably will. Will want to as well. I don't think there's a ton of operators who are just like, yep, I'm crushing it with replies. I don't need to listen. So I think this will be, yeah, a much welcomed episode.
- [03:09]
A
Yeah, it's. It can be really disheartening at times when you spend, like, a ton of effort and bandwidth on a specific issue of your newsletter and then it's crickets and you thought it was great. You spent hours and hours trying to write something great and then you just get no replies. And then you'll see people posting, like, screenshots of, hey, look how many replies I got. Oh, my gosh, this is great. And you're just like, how. Why am I not getting anything?
- [03:33]
B
So, yeah, so a lot of people think that, like, I think we should validate why we think replies are so important. So, Shell, why don't you. I have a few reasons why I think they are, but what do you. What do you think the. The most powerful reason why you think replies are should be, like, your number one metric or a really important metric you should be focusing on.
- [03:52]
A
Honestly, the one we were just talking about, which is mental health of a creator. It is so hard when nobody replies like that. Honestly, all of the really good, like, ideas and reasons that they're, like, technically good for your email list are great, but I honestly think that getting replies can just help boost your mood in a way that most other things can't. So that's my main one. But honestly, like, deliverability would Be the top one here, making sure that your emails are actually getting through to people's inboxes. When Gmail and other provider inbox providers see that you're getting replies to your emails, they'll prioritize your email in somebody's inbox versus putting it into promotions or spam, which is like the worst case. So that's probably the biggest like technical reason. But yeah, mental health is a big one too.
- [04:39]
B
That's really interesting. I did not see that coming. That that's mental health as a reason to get replies, which is like I, I could totally get it because the, the burnout thing, like I'm writing and I'm writing and I'm spending so much time and I'm sending all these newsletter editions and it's just like kind of crickets on the other end. So, so getting the replies being like, oh, this was. Somebody did resonate with this or, you know, this did help people. I did. It was worth spending all that time on this one edition. I see that being, I see that being a really important thing that I had. Not that I maybe had overlooked.
- [05:12]
A
Yeah, no, it's easy to overlook, but I think sometimes we need to think through these things versus just, it's a tactical, technical thing. Whereas like the amount of time you spend on each week's edition of the newsletter is not insignificant. And so if you could get a reply or two, it's like really helps boost the continuation of you being able to sustain this thing long term.
- [05:32]
B
Absolutely. And I, I have a few reasons myself why I think replies are important. So if you're getting replies, it's a strong signal of three things. One, that your content is actually resonating with people. So the time you're putting in is like, oh, people, people are feeling this in some way, shape or form. It's a strong signal that your readers are engaged. They're actually opening. You can't reply to an email unless you've opened it, unless you've read it. So it is another signal that people are actually opening and reading your newsletters, which sometimes we can wonder if that's actually happening given all the bot opens that we get in email clients and the bot clicks that we can be getting. So a reply is actually like, there's not too many people that are going to be using bots to reply to emails.
- [06:13]
A
So.
- [06:14]
B
So it is a strong signal that people are actually engaged. And I think the, the third thing is it's a strong signal that your content is sparking an emotional response and that kind of can be lumped in with your content being resonant with people, that it's resonating. But. And we'll get into maybe other ways you can spark emotional responses with people. But often people will reply when they are feeling an emotion, whether positive or negative or. Or otherwise. But I think those are kind of the three things why I feel email replies are so important is that they're going to res. They're resonating with people. Your readers are engaged and it's sparking a response, an emotional response response.
- [06:48]
A
Yeah, totally. I think this is. Has definitely played out and shown to be true throughout. Like the replies that I get too. It just happens when someone's like interested in that topic or you hit on something that other people haven't necessarily thought about or talked about or maybe you said it in a different way than someone else and so it's really resonating with them. So I think that those are big ones.
- [07:10]
B
And maybe one last thing is that in the replies that you get, sometimes you'll unearth problems or challenges or ideas. You didn't realize that other people are either hitting back at you, saying, yes, but to your, to your content, or they're saying, wait, wait, how did you do that? Or how do you do that? Or they're asking questions that could maybe create a new idea for content, maybe a new idea for a course or something like that, or a resource that you could create for people. So the replies can just say so much to you about where you are going and where you maybe could go with your content.
- [07:45]
A
Yeah. And even if you're doing service based work, this could be a huge way to get a new client too. If you're teasing something or just like saying something without specifically saying it and somebody replies and they're like, man, I'm really struggling with that. I wish I had a way to get help with that. And you could be like, hey, by the way, like I do have hour long calls. We could jump on a call and talk through this, maybe see if it's a good fit or something. So it could be a way to get clients too, if you do it right.
- [08:09]
B
100%. Absolutely.
- [08:11]
A
Cool. And then obviously deliverability is a big key. It's probably the biggest one that most people are thinking about when they're trying to get replies, which is just, can my future emails land in someone's inbox versus their promotions tab or spam or that kind of thing?
- [08:27]
B
And I think that calls out actually when you should really prioritize getting a reply to your newsletter or to your emails. So we've talked about this probably like way too many times, but it's so important that I think it's worth repeating. We talked about it in our last episode even. But in your welcome emails, which is your most opened email you'll probably ever send, that is where you and I both feel that getting a reply should be your top priority. Because of this deliverability reason.
- [08:54]
A
If you can get someone to reply to your welcome email, it does a few things which, yes, it helps deliverability, you're going to hopefully avoid those horrible other places in the inbox in the future. But also you're getting those responses from your customers. You're also getting, you're setting people up for future replies. Right? So if someone replies to your welcome email, they. And then you respond to them, it's, oh, Chanel or Dylan's actually going to reply to this email in the future. So it'll keep them more likely to reply down the road, which is important as well.
- [09:25]
B
No, totally agree. I think if you are, if you're able to, time wise, time permitting, like, reply to every newsletter reply you get because that's just going to build so much more trust and, and stimulate more of these replies from people who you've replied to. It's like, oh, I had this, you know, I replied to their last email saying, hey, this was a great addition. I really learned a lot, thanks for sending it. And then you reply to that. They're going to be more inclined to do that more often. So I think you are just doing all sorts of good things when you, when you do actually reply to these, these, your subscribers replies.
- [09:58]
A
Yeah, I feel like we could also have people start playing a drinking game right now every time we say the word reply or replies.
- [10:04]
B
Touche.
- [10:05]
A
That'd be a bad one. I think we've already said it like 40 times. Yes, it's great. Yes. So obviously first priority is welcome email and we'll talk through some ways to actually make this happen in a few minutes. But first priority is welcome email. And then after that, high priority is still like every other email, you want to get some form of replies from people. Obviously you're not going to get every person who opens your email to reply. That would be practically impossible. But it's a good gauge to see if your content's resonating and just trying to get some replies.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So how do we get more replies then? I guess that begs the big question, the juicy stuff.
- [10:47]
A
Yes, I guess there's a couple, like, simple ways and then I Think we wanted to just riff on some other interesting ideas as we think through them. The first one is the most obvious. Ask for a reply. I see so many people and they're like, I don't get replies to my email. And I'm like, I looked at your last three or four and you don't ask people to reply or even ask them a question or anything that would elicit a reply. Make sure you're asking. This is the biggest piece of it. It's just like the obvious one that we probably are all missing at a certain point. But yeah, ask for a reply is the easiest way.
- [11:19]
B
It really is. And you. It seems so obvious. But again, it's like if you're not actually asking people to take an action, they can't read your mind and they may not know that you even want to reply. They may think, oh, this is, you know, a newsletter writer who probably is getting tons of replies or responses or doesn't have time to me or won't reply to my. Won't reply to me either. In if I send them a response, I think just ask for it and say if you do intend to write back to all these people, say that I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, please send me or send me your thoughts. And I will, I'll respond. Like, I think just writing that out super straightforwardly is gonna be. Is just gonna help that much more for people to trust that you will actually respond and that it's worth them taking the time to write a reply.
- [12:04]
A
And in the welcome email specifically, you can either ask for a reply, you can also ask them to reply and you'll send them something. We talked about this with Caitlin Burgoyne recently in her welcome email and actually on her thank you page for her newsletter, she says specifically reply to this email and I'll send you a free gift. Like straight up, like just hit reply and say yes or I'm in or something to incentivize that person to reply so that they get the freebie that you're mentioning.
- [12:31]
B
And I mean there's lots of ways that you could potentially incentivize replies, but in the welcome sequence when that's really important to get, make sure that your newsletter continues to hit their inbox. Even incentivizing a reply in some way, shape or form the free gift, it's not going to cost you anything where you can automate it. That's great. If you even wanted to up the ante and do like a monthly draw or something like that, you could even do that. But incentivizing replies is never a bad way to go.
- [12:58]
A
In my welcome email right now, I just say to make sure that you have a better chance of receiving this in your inbox, go ahead and hit reply. You can either tell me how you found the newsletter, which I always love hearing how people find the newsletter, or say, hi Chanel, and then they can copy that phrase and paste it in and that's it. And then they reply and it gets a pretty good reply rate. So it works.
- [13:18]
B
Yeah. And you're doing one of two things there. You're getting, you're getting people to do like a really low lift of basically like just replying with quick two words, hi Chanel, or you are getting them to reply with some data of how they found you. So you're like, oh, I totally forgot that I, you know, posted, you know, this thing here, or I was on such and such podcast or whatever it might be. So there is, there's a lot of advantages to asking for replies and asking simple questions like, like that in your welcome sequence.
- [13:47]
A
So those are some, like, basic ones, I think M. Ask for a reply, give them something for a reply, and then you can, I don't know, I think you had mentioned, like creating content worth replying to before. So. Yeah, I know. There's Sean Puri from my First Million the podcast. He has like this framework that I think he stole from someone else, right?
- [14:06]
B
Yeah. Oh, totally. Like he was told, I believe, and I'm pretty sure this is correct. It was Stephen Bartlett who was on Sean Pury's team right in the beginning when Sean was like really starting to push, I think one of his, maybe his e commerce businesses or at the very least some his content business. And Stephen Bartlett went on to start Diary of a CEO Podcast and now it's one of the biggest podcasts in the world. So Stephen told people, or Stephen told Sean that people will respond or react, basically, if you create content that elicits seven key emotions and those key emotions are basically make them laugh. So lol. I'll do, I'll do the kind of the one word responses that, that Sean came up with. So it's lol. Like, that's so funny. If you do, if you write content that makes them laugh, then another one is, oh, so that's like, oh, now I get it. So you kind of taught them something that they didn't really know before. Or if you wow them so they're like, wow, like, that's amazing. Like, that's create content that elicits like a, an awe, a sense of awe in the response and then another type of awe like, aw, that's so cute. So if you, if you like, you shared a picture of Bucky I think, the other day, right. A few weekends ago of him wearing his cute T shirt. So that probably might have gotten a few awe responses. If you're sharing great news, you want people to like, say, yay, this is great news. They want to celebrate with you, whether it's for yourself or for somebody else creating something worth celebrating. I think that's actually a really common one. If you're sharing some great news that you've had either in your life, personal business, whatever that might be, that's a really good opportunity for people to write back with a simple, hey, congrats on this. This is awesome. Another one. These ones are maybe a little spicier if you, if you create the WTF moment for people. Like, that pisses me off. I can't believe you know, this is happening. Or, or maybe you create a wtf like I can't believe you said that. Like, that you're getting to write you back with if you have like a spicier contrarian take on something that can definitely elicit some emotive, some emotional response. And then the last, the seventh one is finally someone said it. So you basically saying what hundreds of other people have been thinking or feeling about a certain topic probably in your niche. And. And then people just resonating with that vibe that maybe they've been too. The general consensus has been too quiet on. And you finally shared that. Shared that opinion or that take.
- [16:23]
A
No, those are great. And we'll leave a link to that list down below too, just in case you're. You want to revisit it in the future. It's a good one. It's like very straightforward, very simple, but it is a good list of emotions to aim for or at least go back and be like, hey, does my content actually elicit any of these? And then you can like maybe tweak it a little bit to add some more emotion there.
- [16:45]
B
Yep. Yeah, you can work backwards from one of the. One of those that you think at least you could lean your content towards and then make the. The changes that. And the edits that it needs to kind of bring that up.
- [16:56]
A
The other thing that will get replies people ask all the time, like, how do I get more replies? And that kind of thing. And I think the most impactful thing and obviously you can't do this all the time, but is a pattern interrupt Email. So if you send an. A newsletter every Sunday, maybe on a Wednesday, randomly, you send this, like, short thing that's just like, a question or two, and you're going to get way more replies because it's just, like, breaking the pattern of what people are expecting. And so I did this recently, and I guess we can talk about that if you want to, but.
- [17:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
- [17:27]
A
It worked out really well. Yeah. Yeah. So last Friday, I, like, wasn't feeling anything. I, like, wasn't into my content. I was like. It felt like a slog, right? And I was like, man, I just feel uninspired. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna send a random email to my newsletter. And I did. And it was just. We can put a screenshot up of it, but it was just the subject line said, just checking in. And then the email was, hey, I'm trying to think of, like, better content ideas for the next three months, which it's almost towards the end of the year. Would love to know what you're struggling with or is there anything I can help with or any questions you have. And that email was wild. So it was very short. It was just like one or two sentences, one question, and it got over 200 replies at this point, which is way more than I normally get. I'll normally get 8 to 15, maybe 30, maybe. That's, like, on a good day. So getting 200, I was like, whoa. And I guess, like, I should have known before I sent it that this was gonna happen, but I didn't. I was just, like, feeling uninspired and I wanted to talk to someone, like, on my email list. And I was like, okay, I'll just send this out. Send it out in 10 minutes. Now I look back and people thought it was, like, automated and that I was, like, planned it out, but that was not the case. It was just like a random idea I had. Yeah, that one worked pretty well. Yeah.
- [18:47]
B
I think one thing too, that now that I'm thinking about it, we've talked or you've written about Kieran Drew's. What do you call that when he has the picture at the end of his newsletter?
- [18:56]
A
Uh, yeah, his. I don't know what I called it. It was just like, he always has a picture of him holding up a note card and it just says on it.
- [19:03]
B
Yeah, the clo.
- [19:04]
A
Yeah, Magnetic closer. That's what it was.
- [19:06]
B
The magnetic closer. So one way you could do that to show people that it's not automated. That is a little bit more spur of the moment if you had a picture, can I help you? Or something like that with a date, even if you wanted to make it seem more authentic and right away. But. But no, I think this strategy, you cannot overuse it. Like, I think we should definitely make sure that's clear. Like, you're not going to be doing this, like, every two weeks or even every month. Like, people are going to get sick of it. And it's really something that you would probably want to only do once or twice a year kind of thing.
- [19:37]
A
Right?
- [19:37]
B
I. I would assume there's different questions you can ask people, but this specific, like, general, like, I want to help you. What, what, where do you need help? Kind of thing.
- [19:47]
A
Uh, so it got good replies. It also got the highest unsubscribes I've ever gotten from a newsletter edition. So that's interesting to keep in mind. I was not expecting that either. So I think a lot of people thought that I was either using AI and sent it out or like I was being disingenuous. Was not. I literally. It was a Friday and I was just checking in to see what people were struggling with and lost a lot of subscribers that day as well, but also gained a ton of great ideas. I think I have a list of like, 50 content ideas now just from that email. So it's pretty wild. And that's where this came from. So that's.
- [20:24]
B
That's right. That's right. So you had, I think when you put. You posted this on LinkedIn too, as, like, just a piece of content. Like, hey, this is what I did and here's what happened. And I replied to you saying I would take 200 replies over 200 unsubscribes any day of the week kind of thing. So to me, the trade off was definitely worth it.
- [20:42]
A
Oh, totally. It's just like, it was one of those, like, things where you're like, whoa, I really hit a nerve here. I hit the, I don't know, that pisses me off emotion, I think, with some people.
- [20:51]
B
Yeah. And they hit the unsubscribe button instead of the reply button. Did you get any replies of people who are like, why are you sending this? Or like, why? What is this automated crap? Or like, was there any, like, visceral reactions in there?
- [21:06]
A
Not to the email, but on that LinkedIn post, I did get some people saying, oh, I thought that was, like, automated. Or, oh, I thought, okay. And so I'm like, oh, I'm glad I posted about this. So now I was like, being legit with it like I wasn't just trying to bait engagement. Like, I was genuinely curious what people were struggling with.
- [21:22]
B
And it worked so well that you saw some, some other people using this strategy all of a sudden, right?
- [21:28]
A
I did, yeah. Within probably an hour, Joe Polizzi, who's like huge content marketing guy did the same thing and I was like, this is awesome. Like being copied by a huge name in marketing, like, that is fun. And then other people in the pro community did it. Some other folks on LinkedIn said they scheduled it out. Dylan went ahead and did it.
- [21:48]
B
I did my own version of it, but I essentially did the same thing. Yeah.
- [21:52]
A
Maybe that's why I got so many unsubscribes because people were like, look what you started.
- [21:55]
B
Yes. Yeah, exactly. No, I think people probably got a bit of an, a spike in the frequency of those emails in their inbox last week and they have you to thank for that, so you're welcome.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah, sorry everyone.
- [22:07]
B
I think there's different ways to do this as well. Like you don't always have to say what your, what problem you're solving or. But if you can even maybe every quarter, if you can put out an email that like just asks simple question that could spark some replies or, you know, I'm sure there's a way to do this where it's, it's both helpful for you and for your subscribers and can help guide whether it's content or the direction of your business or something that you want to create for them. So I, I do think this specific question you wouldn't want to ask too often, but you could probably approach this strategy on somewhat of a regular basis if you, if it's, if it's going to be really helpful for the audience and for you.
- [22:47]
A
Yeah, definitely. And you can tailor it to be more like you were saying, like more towards your niche or your industry just to get those replies. Like it doesn't have to just be like this open ended thing. It could be like, hey, it's we're coming up on October. Do you, Is there anything going on in your world that you need help with for Halloween? Like maybe you're in the craft space and like you want ideas around that. I just, I think a lot of people focus on like getting replies on social posts, but not emails. And I really want to switch that in people's minds of like, here's the. A way to. You're not playing with an algorithm, you're playing with like actually getting people to reply. And it does help your newsletter engagement in the future. But you're also getting like these real one on one connections with your readers. And you can learn so much from this stuff. Like, I. A lot of the things that I gleaned from this exercise, like, I thought were way too basic of, like, topics to come across and talk about. And I was like, oh, maybe I do need to talk about that. And some of them were from, like, more advanced folks that were asking these questions. And I'm like, okay, but that's interesting that, like, they also want help with that. So it's just a good reminder that, like, you often know too much and so you get stuck with what to create for your audience.
- [24:02]
B
Oh, the curse of knowledge. The curse of knowledge, yes. Feel that. Yeah, yeah. No, I think this is a really good way to overcome a little bit of that. So if you're finding yourself, like, I literally. That's what I put in my newsletter edition last week was like, I don't know what you don't know. Like, so, like, some of this stuff seems obvious to me or I feel like I've talked about it before or that you already know how to do XYZ when it comes to your newsletter, but I, I want to know what you don't. So. And I got. I didn't get nearly as many replies that you did, but the replies I did get was like, oh, okay. I did not know this was something people wanted to know more about, so I should write more about it or I need to lean into this, this a little bit more. So it, it can be really a good, a good way to dig yourself out of that. That curse of knowledge or that knowledge bias that a lot of us, when we've been writing and talking about the same topic for months, if not years, we can fall into that trap.
- [24:56]
A
And I didn't realize that I was struggling with that until I sent this email and I was like, oh, no wonder this feels so hard right now.
- [25:02]
B
I thought everybody knew all of these things. Yeah, absolutely. So you have something else here on our show. Notes doc from Mario Gabrielli.
- [25:11]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [25:11]
B
No idea what this is. So I want to hear about this.
- [25:14]
A
This is an example of a Chanel note that no one else will understand but myself. Anyway, so Mario was the first person I ever wrote a deep dive on. And one of the things I pulled out of that of, like, why he was able to get so many replies and like, engage with so many folks on his newsletter was something he called the Puzzler. This was something he did. It was essentially kind of like when you opened a Snapple can if you're old enough. I'm like dating myself now. But like a Snapple bottle on the lid it said like, how fast do giraffes run? Or like some random fact that, like you. It's just like a talking point. And so he would put something like this in his newsletter. So he would ask like a trivia question or it was kind of related to his niche, but not really. Most of the time it was just super broad. But he was trying to get people to reply with their answers, like what they thought it was and that kind of thing. And of course he was like, please don't Google this and then reply, like, try and actually guess it. But it just, it solidified. Like he was super nerdy with his audience and he knew that they would understand some of these, like, inside jokes slash trivia questions. And so he would just do that through the puzzler. So at the end of every email he had that section.
- [26:20]
B
Okay, so it's just like a riddle almost.
- [26:23]
A
Yeah, it was like a riddle. Yep.
- [26:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's cool. That's cool. So nothing really to do with this content at all, but it's just an opportunity for. With your newsletter, like in the form of a reply. And then he shouts out the people who, who won it the week prior. So you have even that, like, incentive to reply, like, I'll get shouted out in the newsletter. Interesting.
- [26:44]
A
Yeah, so he'd be like last week, John Janelle and whoever got it right. Good job, people.
- [26:49]
B
Yeah.
- [26:49]
A
And then he would add a new one. But it's just, it's fun and it's. He didn't do it forever. But I think that's just like when you're smaller and you're getting started, like building that community aspect is so key. And if you can do that via a nerdy topic or a nerdy, like Snapple lid type of situation, I think that can really help you build those relationships with your audience.
- [27:10]
B
I'm. I'm a bit of a. I'm a bit of a puzzle nerd. Like, I love doing New York Times crossword puzzles. And I think I subscribe to the New York Times. Like I pay the monthly thing just so I can all of the wordles and. And like, so the crosswords. Yes. So this really resonates with me. And I. Even somebody I wrote about probably about two years ago now was Toby. What's his last name? He. He worked at and still does work at Morning Brew. Toby Howell. Thank you. Thank you. So he wrote, he wrote a newsletter For a while it looked like he was trying to grow it, but he called it, I think he called it the Game. And it was formatted in an interesting way where it's like how people are winning and how people are losing in business, that sort of thing. But what he did to really start growing and getting traction with this newsletter is he had something kind of like the puzzler at the end of his newsletter. What he basically did was, I'm just going to pull it up here.
- [28:05]
A
Yeah, no, all good.
- [28:07]
B
Okay. So what Toby did was, yes, he had a newsletter called the Game. And basically he. It's a way how he basically got instant engagement, got a high, high click rate, and he incentivized this. So he just put a basic button at the bottom of his newsletter. So it says the button. And here the rules are simple. Reply to this email with a guess of how many times the button below will be clicked. Whoever guesses the correct number of clicks wins the amount of money in the prize pool. If no one guesses the correct number, the prize pool doubles and the game continues. Current prize pool, $10. So it is 100%. A little bit gimmicky. Like, I'm not going to deny that. Like, you're. You're basically paying to get people to click and kind of play this game. But at the same time, he was like trying to figure out how he could grow his newsletter, increase engagement and all those sorts of. Sorts of things with his newsletter from the get go. And I thought this was just a really unique way that I haven't seen a lot of people explore. So I don't know. What do you think about this strategy?
- [29:09]
A
It's interesting. It's probably interesting because he was the only one that did it. If more people kept doing it, it would probably get a little overused. But no, that's. I think that's super smart. It's funny because it's okay, so you guess a number and then it's. And do you click too? Because then you're like, I'm going to add, when did the clicks end? Is it like how many clicks? I don't know. It's just wild.
- [29:29]
B
I think it does this. It's cool because it does a few things right. It. It gets the engagement on that edition and then it. When you see the next edition come into your inbox, which you most likely will if you reply to it right with your guess, you're going to want to open that up and find out if you won or who won or how if anybody won. If the prize pool increased. And so it does create kind of this gamification to a newsletter, which I think is a hard thing to do. And I think he did it well. Unfortunately, he did not keep going with this newsletter. I think he just got too busy to be honest, with his role at, at Morning Brew. But I, I still look back to this and think it was really interesting. And I should also say, like, the newsletter itself was actually good. Like he was writing about. He a, is a really great writer. So he's really engaging. He's got a great sense of humor, and he invokes that really well in his writing. So the content was actually good. It was worth opening up for that alone. But then this, this little, you know, game that he put at the end was. Was just kind of the icing on the cake for me.
- [30:23]
A
This reminds me kind of Caitlin Burgoyne's Frye emails. Have you seen these?
- [30:27]
B
Yes.
- [30:28]
A
So they're Friday emails, which makes sense. Frye. But they're different than her typical email. So she writes about buyer psychology and, like, why people buy certain products and that kind of thing. So on Fridays I have one up. So I'm just gonna read from it. But she says, yeah, do it. Okay. So she'll teach you something. She gives you, like, a brain, which is what she calls it. So she'll teach you something. And then she'll be like, which biopsychology technique does this breakdown use? And she gives you three. It's like a poll. And there. So there's three choices and you have to pick the right one. And then once you do pick that, if you submit it, I think I hit the wrong one, so this isn't going to work. Thanks for voting.
- [31:05]
B
It'll take you to the poll of the landing page.
- [31:08]
A
So it takes you to the landing page that says, thanks for voting. The answer was blank. Did you get it right? Will announce the winner of the prize in the next issue. And she's giving away a product of hers, which is called Wallet Opening Words. It's like a 129 product that you'll get for free if you just guess correctly. Super smart. And it's incentivizing the people who are actually learning these techniques and are interested in the topic. So you're more likely to want this product, which is a cool way to do it.
- [31:35]
B
Sales page for the product. Right. If you haven't heard of it, be like, wait, what's this thing? I want to win it, but I also might want to just buy it.
- [31:41]
A
And then underneath that it gets Even better. It says, apply this. It says, ready to get a quick win? First thing Monday morning, add one behind the scenes element to your email showing how many steps it took to create what you're delivering. And so she's like giving you exactly how to use this thing too. I actually thought this said, tag me and I'll choose another winner, which could be an interesting one. Caitlin, if you're listening to say, use this, take a screenshot, tag me on social, and then one of those people will also win. That could be interesting.
- [32:10]
B
That could be. I like this too, because unlike Toby's, this isn't costing her like any money. Yeah, you could say there's opportunity cost if you're giving away one of these for free, but really you're not costing yourself any money. And it's not necessarily getting a reply, but it's definitely doing something very powerful where you're getting the clicks, the engagement, and it's going, it's teaching you something. It's going to a landing page that looks like just a kind of a thank you page, but really is kind of like a subtle pseudo sales page for your product. It's kind of giving people fomo. Like, you could win this, but you might not. And if you don't win it, you'll probably want to buy it because it's super helpful.
- [32:48]
A
But then each Friday you're just like being reinforced of, hey, this is a really powerful product that I probably want to get access to and I should just buy because there's 60,000 other people reading this newsletter or whatever the number is at this point. Yeah, I think this is super smart.
- [33:02]
B
My guess is if you click on that poll to answer the question, you know, three or four times, you're probably eventually gonna be like, I just need to buy this damn thing. I'm sick of trying to win it.
- [33:14]
A
Maybe she'll send you like a discount if you do it that many times.
- [33:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she might. Or she can. She can tag that click. At least in kit. She could tag that click and then like send out to those people who are clicking so many times. Something like that. Yeah, for sure. Like a discount code. And she came on our podcast like six months ago and she talked about this. Do you remember that?
- [33:35]
C
It's called Fry. Yay. And the idea is it's the only newsletter that rewards you for getting smarter. So it's super short. And each issue is a little quick, tactical, buyer psychology based lesson with an example. We share the example, we show kind of the use case, and then we do A little poll using Kit's polling feature where we ask, you know, do you know what this specific buyer psychology technique is? And then you give them three options and they click on it. And when they submit their answer, they're actually entering a contest to win a prize. What I love about this is a couple of things. It is so short that super bite sized people open and consume it right away. It makes it easier for us to promote our own products. And because we send them to this thank you page after they complete their poll, we can promote something else. So we can promote our own stuff. We can promote a continuation of our sponsors stuff. So it gives us a second ad spot that isn't directly in the newsletter.
- [34:31]
A
I think she was one addition in.
- [34:33]
B
Or something and so she said it was going to be a test to see how well it was working and the reception of it. So I think it's probably, it's probably working well for her.
- [34:40]
A
She's actually sending it weekly, I think must be working. Anyway, I feel like we've talked about this a lot. Do you. I know that we have some Q and A questions. Should we save this for another time or jump into them?
- [34:53]
B
Are there any things you want to call out in some of these questions that you think would be that we should definitely touch on in this episode?
- [34:59]
A
So that we also got a couple questions from that email that I sent and this first one I feel is something that happens a lot for people and so I wanted to touch on it before we end this, which is important. So this person wrote my, my open rates are great, but my engagement beyond that is pretty low. Usually no replies, few or no takers on free offers. I talk to other creators who get a ton of people signing up for their wait list. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I get better engagement on YouTube, community, et cetera, et cetera. But not a ton of replies. The one thing that always jumps out at me when people say I cannot get people to reply. I feel like there's a couple things happening that could be happening. One is if you're growing your list via, I don't know, paid recommendations or paid ads that aren't super optimized or you're not cleaning your list regularly or something like that.
- [35:49]
B
I feel lead magnets.
- [35:50]
A
Yeah, lead magnets could do it too. I feel like sometimes your list just isn't as high quality. If people say I have 55% opens but nobody's replying and I'm like, that makes me nervous because is the list actually as big as you think it is or is it just bot opens or you have a ton of people who are with edu addresses or.org addresses that open every email like automatically and so they're not real opens. So that makes me a little nervous. It's not all doom and gloom though. I do think you can send a series of emails. Maybe some of these pattern interrupt emails will help work or will work for you to get people replying and that kind of thing. It could just be that the content or the questions don't, I don't know, get people excited enough to actually reply. But I think if you are using like a paid recommendation strategy or something like that, I wonder if that's having an impact here.
- [36:40]
B
Yeah, that's a totally could absolutely. I think there's. This is basically like your chance to really mix things up a bit. Like if you are, if you're asking for a reply at the end of your email, put it at the very beginning. Like say like, hey, before we go any further, I really want, I'd love to hear from you on this question. And I reply to everyone like, if you just like slide that up to the very top, how many people are going to open your email versus how many people actually read to the very bottom is going to be quite a different number. At least you're, you're going to cap how many people will actually see that message if you put it right towards the top of your newsletter. So I would, I would recommend. The very first thing would be, my recommendation would be to try that and then you could try something that is a bit of a pattern interrupt at least when you open the email. Or you could even put it in your subject line too like you did just checking in or can ask a favor or can you help something along those lines. If you've given a lot of value to your subscribers, they're going to be more willing to reciprocate right. By helping you out as well. So I think there's a few ways you can go about that and you.
- [37:39]
A
Can also segment your list and say people who maybe used to or used to click more than they do now or something and just reach out to those people differently if they've been on your list for a long time. Like they probably maybe wanted it at one point, but I don't know, it's just hard to without seeing specific things. But I think you can segment them and send those people a pattern interrupt email. And the newer folks just have that reply thing at the top. There's a bunch of different ways you can do it. But I think what you're doing now probably isn't working, sadly. So try something different. Try a pattern interrupt. Try changing your subject line. Create a lead magnet or reintroduce something that you've already built and be like, hey, I have this free thing. As long as it's super relevant to your topic and just send that to them and say, hey, I built this for you. Like, just wanted to give it to you, Reply, enjoy this or something I was gonna say.
- [38:30]
B
Or would you even just say, like, hit reply if you want it? Because I don't want to send it. I don't want to send it to anybody who doesn't want it kind of thing. And then that could, that could sprout on replies as well.
- [38:38]
A
Yeah, you could do that. I don't know. I'm not a big fan. I guess I'm just like too jaded from getting so many cold emails. I made you a video. Should I send it to you? I'm like, no, I don't know. Please don't send it to me. You could always do a two parter and ask if they want it and if they don't reply, then send it. I don't know.
- [38:55]
B
If they don't reply, you'd send it.
- [38:58]
A
If they don't reply, say, hey, I'm not sure if you saw the last email. Just wanted to send this freebie for you in case it's helpful.
- [39:04]
B
Oh, okay. Yeah, you can do that.
- [39:08]
A
Yeah.
- [39:08]
B
And don't send it as a PDF.
- [39:09]
A
I don't know. Don't send it as a PDF and don't make it be like a loom video. Seven years old.
- [39:16]
B
Yeah, please, no.
- [39:17]
A
Should be something new.
- [39:19]
B
Unless it's hardcore evergreen content.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah, I think it just, it can be hard. Like if you're trying to get replies and you're not getting them, it's like, what do I do? And it's like, well, do something different. Change up your header. If it's. If you usually have a well designed email, send a plain text email. If it's usually plain text, send like a picture of you waving at the top. Like something to break the normalcy of what your newsletter typically looks like. Maybe they are opening it and they're just like, well, this is a new. The same thing. I don't have time for this right now. And it. They archive it. So that could happen too.
- [39:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think just calling out that you want to reply is just the number one thing you could do. And if you are doing that, then just do it in more unique or different ways or different spots in your newsletter. That, that's. Those are kind of the, the few things that I would recommend, which I think is what we're basically saying. The other thing which we, we harp on a lot is maybe create content that's worth replying to as well. So obviously you need to be creating IV content, insanely valuable content. And if you can spark emotions like those seven, those Sean Puri seven emotions you should be eliciting in your content, that's gonna just help that much more. So I don't know, I think, I think that's a good kind of recap or summary of some of the things we've been talking about today too.
- [40:33]
A
I think the one other thing that just comes to mind, I wanna say before we end this, but I think if you can include a story or something that happened to you recently, I feel like those can do well too. If you're typically sending, I don't know, just like a generic. It's the same thing over and over, five links or whatever it ends up being. Add some personality into it. Get people like emotionally invested in your story. I think you'll get more replies from that too if you can tie it back to what you're talking about.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah, I consider just axing a whole like. And this, this is something that is. I've seen people argue for and against of incorporating like a personal sort of intro to before you send, you know, get into the main. The meat of your email, if you will. It probably depends on the industry and the type of reader you have for sure. But I've found that when I incorporate stories of what I've been up to, you know, challenges I'm having or anything from my personal life that can some in some way shape or form relate to the content. And sometimes it doesn't. But if I include those stories or those pictures that will very often elicit replies from people just saying, oh, that looked like a great trip. Or you know, I love that you're. Or that you tried that or whatever, whatever the story related to that can get replies just in and of themselves outside of the content too. So I think people just want to connect with other people quite often, especially in this sort of creative realm that we're in. And if you have a personal brand, a creator brand, then people are going to be looking at you as a person and not as a face of a business. So I think it just comes naturally that you'd want to talk a little bit not always and not fully, but a little bit about your personal life and things that you're enjoying or things that you've done. I think that is where people are going to really be able to relate to you the most in a lot of ways.
- [42:15]
A
So, in short, if you're not getting replies, just break the pattern, elicit some emotion and yeah, be more personal to try and get some replies.
- [42:26]
B
That helps.
- [42:27]
A
It helps for sure. Cool. I think this was a good one. I hope this helps. If you enjoyed this reply, you can reply on Spotify, you can reply on YouTube, or you could just send us an email. I'm chanel@growthinreverse.com you can always forward it to Dylan or you could just reply to one of our LinkedIn posts or something.
- [42:45]
B
Let's take replies in in all forms on all platforms.
- [42:50]
A
Yes. And even a review. If you want to review the podcast, that'd be great too. It is my birthday tomorrow, so if you would like to reply and review this, that would be a huge birthday present. I would appreciate that a lot.
- [42:59]
B
That's right. That is right. Yeah, I've got it on my calendar. Yes.
- [43:03]
A
Nice.
- [43:04]
B
Chanel's birthday tomorrow. She's turning 21 again.
- [43:07]
A
21 plus a lot.
- [43:09]
B
All right, well, early happy birthday to you, Chanel. I hope this was a gift for our listeners as well. And please let us know if you do have follow up questions to this episode because. Or we'd love to hear your experiences with the replies. If you've done something that has kind of worked really well that maybe we haven't talked about, we'd love to hear it and potentially share it as well with. With our readers and our listeners.
- [43:31]
A
Yeah, definitely. That'd be great. Please let us know. Bye.