What I’d Change If I Started Over (#004)

Summary

Growth In Reverse Podcast Episode Summary Episode: What I’d Change If I Started Over (#004) | Release Date: December 23, 2024

In this insightful episode of the Growth In Reverse podcast, hosts Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop delve into reflective strategies and lessons learned from Chenell's journey in growing her newsletter from scratch. Drawing from over two years of experience and extensive research into top newsletter creators, Chenell shares valuable advice on content creation, social media engagement, monetization, and operational efficiency.

1. The Power of High-Quality Content

Chenell emphasizes the importance of dedicating the majority of effort to creating exceptional content. She explains that by spending 80% of the time on content, focusing on making it detailed and unique, the need for extensive marketing reduces significantly.

“If you spend 80% of your time making, like, crazy good content, super detailed, something other people are definitely not doing, you probably only have to spend 20% of your time marketing it.”
— Chenell Basilio [00:00]

Conversely, allocating too little time to content creation makes it challenging to attract and retain subscribers without substantial marketing efforts.

“If you only spend 20% on content, you're going to have a much harder time and a much more exhaustive job of like, trying to get it out there and get in front of people and getting them to want to share it.”
— Chenell Basilio [00:00]

2. Social Media as a Growth Lever

A significant portion of the discussion centers around leveraging social media, particularly Twitter, to grow the newsletter's subscriber base. Chenell recounts how she transitioned her entire Twitter profile to focus solely on Growth In Reverse, which helped in attracting attention and gaining subscribers through strategic engagement.

“I changed my entire profile to be like, the image, like my profile image, the background, my name, my description, everything was all about growth in reverse.”
— Chenell Basilio [08:37]

She highlights the effectiveness of commenting and engaging on other people's posts, a strategy inspired by her research into successful newsletter creators like Mario Gabriel.

“I was like, super focused on that. I wasn't trying to like send people to a link tree and be like, hey, I actually help people with Facebook ads. But I also have this newsletter.”
— Chenell Basilio [08:37]

Dylan adds that this method, akin to product-led growth, allows the content itself to drive engagement and subscriptions organically.

“If you create really good, valuable content for people, it can do 80% of that heavy lifting for you.”
— Dylan Redekop [07:37]

3. Balancing Content Quality and Marketing Efforts

The conversation explores the delicate balance between content quality and marketing. Chenell illustrates this using a pie chart analogy, advocating for prioritizing content to minimize the need for aggressive marketing.

“If you are able to, like, spend 80% of your time making like, crazy good content... you probably only have to spend 20% of your time marketing it.”
— Chenell Basilio [00:00]

However, she acknowledges the necessity of maintaining a consistent presence on social media to ensure continuous growth and relevance.

“Building a more sustainable approach to social would have helped me.”
— Chenell Basilio [18:50]

4. Monetization Strategies and Lessons Learned

Chenell reflects on her monetization journey, discussing the potential benefits of a paid newsletter. She admits that while her in-depth content warranted a paid model, fear of being pigeonholed into specific content types held her back.

“I think I would have started a paid newsletter... the content was so in depth, it was worth paying for.”
— Chenell Basilio [19:41]

She also touches upon the challenges of sponsorships, sharing her initial experiences and the pressures associated with constantly seeking sponsors.

“Every week I was trying to find a new sponsor and then I'd have to write the copy and decide on like how it flowed into the piece. So it was just a lot.”
— Chenell Basilio [21:13]

Despite these challenges, Chenell acknowledges the effectiveness of affiliate programs and expresses excitement about expanding coaching services as additional revenue streams.

“Sponsorships, affiliates... I'm signing up for his affiliate program for the course.”
— Chenell Basilio [25:12]

5. Operational Efficiency: The Role of Virtual Assistants

Another pivotal topic is operational management. Chenell underscores the importance of delegating tasks to a Virtual Assistant (VA) to streamline operations and focus on strategic initiatives.

“I would have hired like a VA type person earlier on... She's been with me now like two months. It's like awesome.”
— Chenell Basilio [39:07]

She advocates for bringing in help as early as possible to handle administrative tasks, allowing for greater focus on content and growth strategies.

“If you can find a couple sponsors, just cover that person's like, like a small amount... you can get someone for full time to like, do all of these little tasks.”
— Chenell Basilio [40:05]

6. Building and Maintaining Relationships

Chenell highlights that relationships have been the backbone of her newsletter's growth. She stresses the importance of nurturing connections with influencers and peers in the industry, which in turn fosters organic growth through mutual support and content sharing.

“Relationships have been like the, I would say, the backbone of all of my growth.”
— Chenell Basilio [34:33]

Dylan complements this by noting Chenell’s natural ability to build and maintain meaningful relationships without any ulterior motives, which has significantly contributed to the newsletter's success.

“You're building those relationships are still very sound, whether or not you're reaching out to them over and over again.”
— Dylan Redekop [35:18]

7. Sustainable Growth and Long-Term Strategy

Towards the end of the episode, Chenell reflects on sustainable growth practices, such as maintaining a consistent posting schedule and planning content in advance to prevent burnout.

“I was probably waking up every Sunday and waking up at like 4:00 to finish the deep dive... it's not really a sustainable work, the work life balance.”
— Chenell Basilio [42:08]

She suggests batching content creation to manage workload effectively, ensuring longevity and consistency in publishing.

“Keep engaging, I think it would have been good because after you stop posting on social... building a more sustainable approach to social would have helped me.”
— Chenell Basilio [18:50]

8. Final Reflections and Takeaways

Chenell and Dylan conclude with actionable advice for aspiring newsletter creators:

• Prioritize High-Quality Content: Focus on creating unique and in-depth content that naturally attracts and retains subscribers.
• Engage Strategically on Social Media: Use platforms like Twitter to comment and engage with influential figures to boost visibility.
• Consider Monetization Early: Explore paid newsletters and affiliate programs to create sustainable revenue streams.
• Delegate Operational Tasks: Hire a VA early to manage administrative duties, allowing more time for content and growth strategies.
• Nurture Relationships: Build and maintain genuine relationships within the industry to support organic growth.

This episode offers a treasure trove of strategies and personal insights, making it invaluable for anyone looking to grow their newsletter effectively.

Transcript

[Chanel]

I was telling my wife, I was like, I got three subscribers. She was like, cool. That is one thing I see a lot of people, like, struggling with. That worked in my favor, like, a lot in the early days. If you spend 80% of your time making, like, crazy good content, super detailed, something other people are definitely not doing, you probably only have to spend 20% of your time marketing it. I think if you only spend 20% on content, you're going to have a much harder time and a much more exhaustive job of like, trying to get it out there and get in front of people and getting them to want to share it. Like, if it's not that good, it's going to be harder to entice people to do that. Most people are not going to be able to get to a point where you spend 100% of your time on content and still be able to get it shared. Eventually, I stopped posting on social media. So right now the revenue is coming from. If we were starting with Growth in Reverse again, I would continue to write my posts and then any other spare time I had would just be spent. Hey, I'm Chanel.

[Dylan]

And I'm Dylan.

[Chanel]

And this is the Growth in Reverse podcast. You might know my newsletter of the same name, the one where I spend 20 plus hours every week researching how top creators grow their newsletter from 0 to 50,000 plus subscribers. And if you don't, you can check it out at Growth in Reverse. Com. But this is the podcast version of that and we're going to go even deeper into the content and ideas so you can figure out the strategies to try and the ones to avoid. Today's episode is going to be a fun one. Uh, Dylan actually came up with this idea because he was asking how I would start growing my newsletter if I were to start from scratch again and what I would do differently. Um, so we're going to talk about, you know, some of those ideas and maybe even some monetization stuff as well. What were you thinking when you came up with this idea?

[Dylan]

Basically came down to you've been doing this for, we're coming up on two years, I think, since your very first edition of, in December of 2022. We're November 2024 right now. And, you know, you've put out, I think, over 70 deep dives or right around there of newsletter creator. So I would imagine that you've probably learned a few things that you did not know when you first started this journey. You've put in thousands of hours into this research as well. So I Thought it would be interesting to dive into your brain and kind of pull out some of the strategies that you're like, oh, you know, when you read it or you saw somebody doing it during your. In your research, you're like, yes, I. I really should have done this, or I need to do this now. And also, maybe things that you were doing that you're like, I should not have done that. That was a waste of time. I thought that could be interesting as well, especially for people who are kind of a few steps behind you. Maybe they're only a few months into publishing the newsletter. I thought it would be a good lesson for those people as well to sort of maybe learn from your mistakes to some degree, but also learn from you with what worked well and that you would do again if you started over.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I like this topic. It's interesting because I don't often think back to that point, but I do get asked that quite a bit, and I haven't really written much about it, so I guess we can kind of solve that here. So I think the first thing, if we're just gonna dive right in, let's dive right in. Let's dive right in. So the first thing I would. I would say what I did right, actually, and what I would do again is kind of start from a place of, like, extreme curiosity and passion with the topic. I knew nothing, virtually nothing about newsletters, but I was ready to, like, research and figure out everything I could about it. So that is one thing I see a lot of people, like, struggling with. With topics and what they actually want to start writing about. And I think I did well with that because it kind of showed through in the content. Like, people were really excited to read the content because it was unique. Nobody else had really written about this before and spent that much time on it. So I think. I don't know, there's something there with, like, passion and uniqueness of the content. Um, so, yeah, I think that worked in my favor, like, a lot in the early days. So I don't know. I'll. I'll pause there if you wanted to add anything.

[Dylan]

But, yeah, I. I think it showed very clearly. Like, your first deep dive was on Mario Gabriel, who wrote the Generalist. You're like, whoa, this guy's making, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just within newsletter. And even though you weren't really into the newsletter thing, the newsletter scene, or didn't know much about it, you like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna write or research this, figure out what he's doing and publish a newsletter on it kind of meta, which was sort of, I don't know, kind of some sweet irony in that. And it worked really well because I think within a few weeks, you started popping up on social media more. I think there was a podcast I was listening to back then that had already started mentioning you, and I think you'd only been publishing for about a month at that point. So you're getting on people's radars. And that was like the copy blogger podcast. So it wasn't just like a small podcast. It was Ethan or. Yeah, Ethan Brooks. Brooks. Thank you. And he had mentioned. He had mentioned your newsletter and saying, I love this. You know, I think there's a place for really deep, well researched content. And Chanel is doing a great job. So I think it was very clear that you were, like, super interested and passionate about it from the get go.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And I guess there is a period, well, not a period of time, but like a point to this that I also had experience in the online space, but not in newsletter, so I was able to, like, recognize how people were marketing their stuff and how they were growing it, but I didn't have experience in this space. So I think it was the combination of, like, I don't know, the willingness to go super deep on a topic and also, like, the experience of knowing a little bit about online marketing that was, like, helpful in terms of the content mix.

[Dylan]

Yeah, it was kind of like this mystery box of like this newsletter thing has a question mark on it. And you're like, I know how social media works and digital marketing works, but how is that all working in collaboration to earn, you know, $300,000 in a year with a newsletter?

[Chanel]

I was thinking about this. I think there's something to be said about the. The mix of the content quality and the amount of marketing that you have to do for your newsletter. Like, if you. If you are able to, like, I don't know, if we think of almost like a pie chart and there's, you know, a hundred percent in the full circle, you think, all right, if you spend 80% of your time making like, increa, like crazy good content, super detailed, something other people are definitely not doing, you probably only have to spend 20% of your time marketing it. And so I think if you only spend 20% on content, you're going to have a much harder time and a much more exhaustive job of, like, trying to get it out there and get it in front of people and getting them to want to share it. Like if it's not that good, it's going to be harder to entice people to do that. So I think there's like a give and take on that spectrum of marketing versus content quality that. Yeah, so there's definitely something to that.

[Dylan]

There's. There's a term called product led growth in the SaaS business. And I think when it comes to newsletters and you know, for lack of, I'll just throw it all into one term like blogging and written content, for example. What you have exemplified is like content led growth. So it's just like the content is so good that it, it drives growth on its own. People will share it, people talk about it. They, they can't help but to, because it's so good. And even to this day, you know, your content gets shared in just about every, any type of roundup section in, you know, content marketing or email or newsletter. Newsletter based newsletters, if you will. I see, I see links to your content all the time in those. Even still. So it just proves that if you create really good, valuable content for people, it can do 80% of that heavy lifting for you.

[Chanel]

I think there still is a point. I don't think you can ever get to a point of like a hundred percent. Well, I won't say nobody can, but most people are not going to be able to get to a point where you spend 100% of your time on content and still be able to get it shared. The. You just brought up Ethan Brooks and he's a good example of. I was still posting on Twitter. Me and him were not connected at all. But I think someone I knew that he also knew had like liked it or commented on my posts. Um, and so I think there is some. You definitely still need discovery in this, in this game. So me posting on social media was one of the things I was gonna bring up. I went really hard, yeah, I went really hard into social media for the first 6ish months. Um, and it served me super well in terms of getting in front of people like Ethan and being able to, I don't know, get the word out about what I was doing.

[Dylan]

And how did you approach it? What was like your overall strategy? Or did you have one where you kind of go flying by the seat of your pants a bit? Or was there like some intentionality behind how you were commenting and, and what you were posting?

[Chanel]

Yeah, it's a good question. Um, so I've talked about this before, but essentially I wasn't posting on Twitter at all when I started the newsletter. And I saw that Mario, through my research, I saw that he had grown his newsletter through posting on Twitter. So I was like, okay, great, I'm gonna do the same thing. So I changed my entire profile to be like the, the image, like my profile image, the background, my name, my description, everything was all about growth in reverse. And so I just went like, super focused on that. I wasn't trying to like send people to a link tree and be like, hey, I actually help people with Facebook ads. But I also have this newsletter. Um, it was very focused on growth in reverse. And then after that I just started commenting. I had seen, I think it was Mario had said just engaging on other people's tweets had gotten him a lot of subscribers. So I was like, okay, great, I'm gonna do the same thing. Um, so I actually commented, I think it was on a Cody Sanchez tweet. And I just commented and I tagged Jay Clouse. Cause he was, I was in his community at the time. And so Jay saw that, clicked through my profile, saw that I had a newsletter subscribed. I think he was the first subscriber. And then two other people from that one comment on Cody's tweet signed up for the newsletter. So it's like thinking of your social profile as a landing page really, really helped me in the early days.

[Dylan]

I'm just scrolling through. I did a. Before we hopped on this call, I did like a quick Twitter advanced search from basically December 1, 2022 through till like kind of the end of the year. And I expect to see a lot more organic posts. But there's so many replies in here. And I think that just kind of proves that, you know, people like Nathan Baugh and Jay Clouse and see if there's, oh, Kyle Adams, like, there's just. You're replying to, you know, the right people, Ben Tossel and I. I just think there's like a really interesting strategy here of you're not just being like the reply guy, but you're thanking people who've shared your newsletter. You're commenting on other people's stuff and you know, just following that Mario strategy of showing up in, in the comments.

[Chanel]

Yeah, that's interesting. I kind of forgot how much I commented. I always just remember that first one. Cuz I remember getting subscribers from it and it was like very obvious because I hadn't been posting at all on social otherwise. So I was like, I was telling my wife, I was like, I got three subscribers. And she was like, cool, way to go.

[Dylan]

How much time Are you spending on this thing?

[Chanel]

I know.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Is this another one of your ADHD things that you're gonna quit in three weeks? Yeah.

[Dylan]

Yep. Yeah. You're not. You've. You've proven her wrong.

[Chanel]

I've proven her wrong at this point. Um, but, yeah, I think the social posting early on was huge for me, and I was only on Twitter. I wasn't doing LinkedIn at this point until I don't. Farther down the road. But, yeah, definitely commenting, engaging on social. And I'm glad you pointed that out, because you don't. I think a lot of us get so hung up on social of, like, what do I post today? Like, do I have to make it this long thread or this huge insightful piece where I have to pull out research? And it's like, if you just comment on other people's stuff, like, you're gonna grow. It might not be as fast, but you're still gonna grow. You're gonna learn what you should be posting. So I think it's a good strategy.

[Dylan]

That's what I was gonna say, too. Like, a lot of times I'll come up with ideas just based on replies to people's posts. You know, it just gets me thinking a different way, and I start formulating a reply, I'm like, oh, that's actually, like, maybe that could be a good topic, something I could post on later. Or that comment itself just turns into a post another day. Because either it had good, good response to it, or I just thought it was, you know, insightful on my part. Not to be, like, tooting my own horn or anything like that. I'm like, oh, I never thought about it that way until I read that person's post. And it made me think this way. Yeah, definitely spawn ideas, for sure.

[Chanel]

And then I think through the reply game, if you will, it wasn't really what I was going for, but through that, I was able to build relationships with certain people on Twitter that at the time, I didn't realize had influence, but they definitely did. Um, you could think of someone like Paul Metcalf, right? He is. If you have been on Twitter, you know, Paul, like, he might not be famous in the creator space, but if you've been on there for years, you know, he's been around for a long, long time. And so at the time, I was just like, oh, this guy looks like a nice person. I'm just engaging with this stuff, but I didn't realize how many people he knew. And he had his own newsletter, and I think he was sharing some of my articles in there. People like John Bardos, same, same thing, been around for years. But like, you would never realize how big of an influence they have because it's so understated.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So I think, I think just, you know, being a human, talking to people, sharing ideas, such a good, good way to build relationships and just grow slowly in the beginning. So we're talking a lot about growth and getting more people to check out your work. But do you know what one of the best ways to turn those people into email subscribers and even paying customers is? Social proof. I'm talking about testimonials from readers and people on social media just mentioning how much they love your work. And today's sponsor, Senja is my favorite tool for collecting these kinds of testimonials and not collecting them, but they also make it super easy to showcase them on your website and share them on social media. You can even embed them in your emails. It adds so much more credibility to see someone other than yourself raving about your work. Senja is a tool I've personally been using for the past 18 months, so it's super exciting to have them support this new show. You can get started completely [e-mail] Senja. That's growthin reverse.com S E N J A. And you can start using the tool right now to collect all those nice things people are saying about your work. And when you're ready to upgrade, you can use the code reverse to get your first month for just a dollar. Thanks again to Senja for sponsoring the podcast. And now back to the show.

[Dylan]

So if you rewind to starting your newsletter over again, how would you approach this strategy of social media growth now? What would be kind of like just some basic dos and don'ts, I would say.

[Chanel]

I think in the early days, I would set like a little timer. Like, I have this, you know, ADHD timer here. I would set it for 30 minutes, 20. If you don't have time and just engage with other people's stuff, like, even if you're not going to publish anything that day, just comment on other people's posts, like, their stuff, share it. Um, I think that goes such a long way and it feels like such a task. Like after a while you're just like, ugh, I have to go on Twitter again. But it really, really has so many impacts that you can't even see upfront that if you just can't stay consistent with it, it's like, I would do that. That would be the first thing I Did is if I had. Well, if we were starting with growth in reverse again, I would continue to write my posts and then any other spare time I had would just be spent on social media, mostly commenting.

[Dylan]

Or would you be sharing nuggets from those posts as well? How would that work?

[Chanel]

I would share nuggets, I think. I think what I did well was sharing a thread of the actual deep dive. So, like, a shorter version, essentially. Those always did well, but they took so much time to write. Everyone's always like, oh, Chanel, you're so good at hooks. But, like, it's a battle to get that out of me. So I don't do well with just, like, posting something I don't feel good about. So that took a lot of time. But I. I would say the threads and then even just, like, little snippets. I think what I would have done differently is shared some of my sawdust along the way. Like, hey, I found this cool, interesting quote from this podcast. Um, and I think why I didn't do that in the beginning was that through those. Like, I was teasing the newsletter the day before as well. And so I didn't want people to know who I was researching. So I didn't want to share, like, hey, you know, you know, whoever did this. So that stopped me. But it was. It shouldn't have. Like, I could have shared it the next week or just changed up my. My strategy a little bit.

[Dylan]

The other thing, too, is if you would have just started sharing, you know, quotes from anything, anything you were finding, I think it would have been. It wouldn't have necessarily been a giveaway if that's who you're researching. And even if it was, I think the amount of time and effort you're putting into it, like, if you worry about somebody stealing the idea, just, like, you had a unique way of creating it and put so much time and effort into it that you just probably were going to outperform most other people with. With that, the amount of time and effort.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And it wasn't so much about someone stealing the idea. It was more of, like, the day before I sent my newsletter out, I would write these really cryptic, interesting. Cryptic. That's a great word. Cryptic. Teasers for the newsletter. So I'd say, like, this one person built a 600,000 subscriber newsletter in two years, but I didn't want to give away who it was. So if I would have shared, like, along the way, hey, I listen to this podcast and, like, Dan from tldr, you know, grew this way like, it would have kind of really made those not work as well. Or maybe it wouldn't have. Maybe it would have just added to the curiosity. I don't know.

[Dylan]

Yeah, well, you don't know now, but yeah, if you're doing it all over again, you'd find out I'd be curious about some disproportional things maybe that you were doing with social media or other things that you would not necessarily do again if you were starting over in.

[Chanel]

Terms of social media.

[Dylan]

If there are some that come to mind. Yeah, let's. Let's stick with that. Like what, what. What kinds of things were you doing that you think looking back, were probably not the best use of your time or actually a complete waste of time?

[Chanel]

I don't know if anything I did on social was a bad use of time. I feel like it either furthered a relationship, got subscribers, or helped me get better at the craft of writing. So I don't know. I don't know that there was anything bad. I think the only thing I would have changed is, like, the pressure on myself to like, publish three, four, five times a week. Because eventually I stopped posting on social media. Like, not all together, but pretty much. Like, I wasn't. After about six months, I, like, really burnt myself out. Yeah, I think that is something I would have changed is. I don't know. I don't know how I would have changed it, but just not putting that pressure on myself to like, write something good four or five times a week.

[Dylan]

Do you think the just sticking with that strategy of setting a timer for 20 or 30 minutes and just doing replies, if you weren't feeling the creative spark, do you think that would have helped if you had kept doing that?

[Chanel]

I do. Like, if I would have scaled back my posting to just like the teasers on Saturday and maybe one other thing, and then kept engaging, I think it would have been good because after you stop posting on social, like the algorithm and I'm talking at it about it, like I know what it is, but, like, it just stops showing your content and you stop becoming relevant. And so, I don't know, like, the longer you go without posting, I feel like the worse it is. So I don't know. I mean, even now when I go back on there, I'll still get good engagement, but it's never. I've never had something with more than 400 likes on it. And that was maybe one or two threads that I wrote that got that many. So building a more sustainable approach to social would have helped me.

[Dylan]

I Think that's pretty insightful. What's something else maybe next on your list that we haven't discussed yet that you do differently?

[Chanel]

Think I would have started a paid newsletter?

[Dylan]

One of my questions for you.

[Chanel]

Yeah, because the content was so in depth, it was worth paying for. People, multiple people told me that, yeah, it was definitely worth paying for. I think I just got scared of like boxing myself into writing deep dives for the rest of my life. And so that was what freaked me out a little bit. Um, I remember doing research on Lenny Rachitsky and he said it was almost like a ball was chasing you down a hill or up a hill or something. Some visual that I have of like, you can never stop writing about that thing. And his topic, he's. I feel like he's kind of boxed into. Maybe not. He's expanded a little bit lately, but I felt like I was so boxed into, like newsletter growth, deep dives. Like if it was just newsletter growth or audience growth, I think I could do that.

[Dylan]

But.

[Chanel]

But being boxed into writing a 3,000 word piece every week, that was a lot.

[Dylan]

Yep, I could see that. Yeah, I could see that. So if you restructure this, like, if you were starting over again, how do you think you would have structured the. Let's say you decided to go paid, how would you have operated that?

[Chanel]

I think I would do maybe one deep dive a month and then the other weeks would be kind of like a Lenny style where you like Q and A, like send a question, I'll find an expert to help me answer it, and then I'll write a piece about it. I think that's way more of a sustainable thing.

[Dylan]

Oh, totally. Would you have gated all of the content to be under a subscription or would you have released some free stuff as well?

[Chanel]

I would release some free stuff for sure. The. The reason I would have wanted to do a paid newsletter is that taking the pressure off yourself of having to make money from your newsletter week after week and like finding sponsors, writing the sponsor copy, like it's a good strategy if you can do it. Well, like if Justin Moore, like, if he can find one sponsor for the whole year and like you don't have to worry about it, that's great. But that was not happening for me. So every week I was trying to find a new sponsor and then I'd have to write the copy and decide on like how it flowed into the piece. So it was just a lot. So I think a paid newsletter would have kind of, you know, you're selling the Content you're writing, you don't have to add on to it. So I think that would have helped a lot reduce the pressure of like trying to make money with this thing, but also not selling my soul.

[Dylan]

Fair. Fair.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Well, selling yourself. From which aspect actually do you mean selling yourself to, like being a slave to advertisers?

[Chanel]

No, I mean not trying to like, do all the gimmicky things to make money, like a small product here, like, you know, doing all these other things, which I didn't do, but I feel like I felt very pressured to do some of those things. So I don't know, it's just a different level of stress that would have come. I don't know how to say this well, but the, the paid newsletter would have taken away a lot of the stress. I think of trying to find like a monetization route that was sustainable.

[Dylan]

It's an interesting. The way you approach the. Or think about the paid newsletter, the pressure from that of boxing yourself into just like more of like a content trajectory or like a, sorry, a content topic or a niche. Because I had considered doing a paid newsletter as well, but it was, for me, it was more like, I don't think what I'm writing is worth paying for. So it was more like a battle with myself, like, you know, imposter syndrome a little bit and really wondering, like, would somebody actually pay for this? Where I think you had like the proof that just by virtue alone we were talking about earlier content led growth, like your content was good enough that people were sharing and talking about it and, you know, really enjoying it that you were like, oh, yeah, I'm pretty confident people would pay for this. But you're just like, I don't want to be boxed into writing deep dives on newsletter growth for the rest of my life or for the next, you know, X amount of years or months or whatever it might be for your subscription. So yeah, that's an interesting insight.

[Chanel]

And I think the other thing on the monetization side that I would've done is said yes, when people asked if they could pay me for a coaching call. Like, I had a lot of requests for that early on. I don't love jumping on calls. That is not my, like, zone of genius. Like, I'm very good taking an idea, going to like research it myself, coming up with thoughts and then presenting them. Not like on the fly stuff. Um, so that always scared me. But looking back, like, I've actually had some really good calls with people and I wish I would have you know said yes to those kinds of opportunities earlier.

[Dylan]

Let's, let's explore briefly how you're currently earning revenue. You don't have to give revenue numbers, but you've got multiple revenue streams at this point. Um, and then I'd be curious to go back, you know, again, starting over. We talked about paid newsletter. Is there anything else you would Paid newsletter and coaching. Anything else that you would do differently with revenue?

[Chanel]

So right now the revenue is coming from the community growth and Reverse Pro. That is, that feels the most aligned with how I work and how I help people. And it's just another avenue to like me to share my ideas and that kind of thing. Sponsorships is definitely still a big part of it. I need to put together like a really solid like here's 26%. You know, I will get that so we can talk about that in a future episode. Yeah, but sponsorships, affiliates. So for example, I wrote a piece on Justin Welsh. He has a course. I sign up for his affiliate program for the course. So if someone buys it through my deep dive, I get a little like commission.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So it's not a ton but it's a good like additional revenue source and it's nice cuz it's already stuff I'm going to talk about. So I'm just like, oh wait, they have an affiliate program. Let me sign up and throw that link in there. Instead of just the typical link to the course, there's more. Oh, newsletter audits. I don't do those one off anymore really just because I don't talk about it much. Um, but then also coaching. Um, and we're actually going to start doing more of that which I'm really excited about. So that should hopefully become a bigger piece of this and give us more insights to share here too of just like ways that are working for people to grow their newsletter. So those are the main ones.

[Dylan]

Actually let's go back again because this is a little bit of a retroactive to some degree because I'm curious how your first newsletter ad came about or newsletter sponsor and like how long into the process that was and, and maybe how you would have approached that whole situation differently, you know, in hindsight or was did it work out really well and you're really happy with how it, how it happened.

[Chanel]

I'm gonna pull this up for you so I can get the full exact date. Um, but I followed the Josh Spector method of getting sponsors. Um, so he essentially talked about this on Twitter. Actually no, it was on a podcast episode with Jay Clouse. And he said that he put a link in his newsletter and said, would you be interested in. Or I'm thinking of adding sponsors to this. Would you be interested? And then there were three links you could click, and each click was like a vote. So the first one was, yes, I'm. I'd be interested in seeing sponsors. Yes, I'd be interested. The second one was, yes, I'd be interested in sponsoring an issue. And the third one was like, no, I don't want to see sponsors. And he said, like, 90, I think, actually were interested and, like, okay with him putting sponsors in there.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So that is kind of how I started doing it. So I did the same thing. I put the same question in my newsletter with the same links, and I got a really good response. I want to say it was like 85 of people said, let me pull this up. I think I still have it. Yeah. So it was like 86% of people said they'd be interested or yes to ads. 24 out of the 100 something said they would want to be a sponsor.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Chanel]

And then like two people said no to ads. So it was. It was very good, very well received. I posted that the first sponsor came from a reader. They DM'd me on Twitter and said, hey, I want to sponsor the issue. Like, how much? What are you thinking? And I was like, oh, 100 bucks. They were like, okay, great. Sounds. Sounds good. Send me a PayPal invoice or whatever it was. And that was the first sponsor that was. I'm trying to find out how many subscribers I had. It was February 12th of 2023, so, like, three months in.

[Dylan]

Yep.

[Chanel]

It was going out to 2,200 email subscribers. Okay, so a hundred bucks for 2200 subscribers is not bad. Take it. Especially for the first one.

[Dylan]

No kidding. It's not bad at all. Okay, so 100 bucks, three months in. Do you remember how that ad performed?

[Chanel]

I don't. Let me see.

[Dylan]

Did the sponsor ever rebook with you?

[Chanel]

They did not, but I don't looking back, like, I don't think it was a good fit. It was my friend Andrew, and he runs a tool called lasso. It's for WordPress. And it's like helping you, like, organize your affiliate links. So I don't feel like it was a good. I don't know.

[Dylan]

There wasn't fit there. Yeah.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Interesting.

[Chanel]

So click to open. Rate. That ad got 2.4%. So it wasn't a huge amount, but it wasn't bad either.

[Dylan]

2, 4 isn't. Isn't terrible. Not really at all. Actually, that's. That's not bad for an ad. I want to go quickly back to just something that jumped in my mind that I want to just touch back on. When you mentioned sending out this email to your subscribers about this poll, like, would you care to see ads? Yes. No. I. I couldn't help but wonder if, like, you framed it as. Or something you could have done. Even. Even if you were thinking about a paid newsletter, like, juggling that idea, like, wrestling with it whether you wanted to go paid or if you wanted to bring in sponsorships or somebody else is maybe thinking about this, you could literally be like, hey, do you want to keep this newsletter free for yourself to have? I mean, I think you had a lot of good feedback that people are really enjoying the newsletter, and you could have maybe dangled that carrot, too. And just seeing what the response would be like, I'll bring in sponsors. I mean, most people probably say, yeah, keep it free. But I wonder if there would have been an interesting way to suss out how much revenue you could have potentially earned if you said, I'm thinking about, you know, making this a paid newsletter, and, you know, would you be interested in that? Just, like, for somebody who's maybe in the same boat growing a newsletter that's growing pretty quickly based on free content that people are digging, eating up, and are thinking about going paid, maybe that would be a way to, like, kind of just test and see if maybe people be interested in willing to at least pay for it.

[Chanel]

Yeah. I think it could be an interesting experiment for someone to try out because. Yeah. I mean, you're just asking them a question. Most people won't even remember that you asked that question. So, yeah. If in six months or six weeks you decide to pivot, it's not a big deal.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I have one. One other question. I don't know if you're gonna get into this at all, but it's on the growth side as well. And because for those people, for those of the people listening who do not know, you are running Facebook ads, right. Like, as a service for people for different businesses. Right. You've never used. At least that I know of, you've never used Facebook ads to help grow your newsletter. And I'm curious, like, why not? And would you may potentially look into doing that if you were to start over again to get some kind of quicker growth?

[Chanel]

Yeah. So the reason I didn't do Facebook ads for growth in reverse was that I was. That's how I was bringing in Money as, like, a freelancer, essentially. Um, and I was getting really burnt out on the service side of things. And so when I thought of Facebook ads, I thought of helping those clients, and it really. I don't know, it made me feel gross inside. Like, I didn't love it anymore. So I didn't want to, like, bring that into the growth and reverse side of things because I was having so much fun with it. However, once I hit, like, 5,000, 10,000, like, this is one of the reasons I wish I would have monetized better in the early days, too, is, like, if you have a consistent amount people are paying every month, like, you know how much you can spend on ads, and, like, it's just a much easier funnel to scale with paid growth. Um, I didn't have that in the early days, which is why I didn't do it. Um, and I had seen people get burned by, like, trying to run ads towards, like, a new course or a new something or a new business that they started before they actually had product market fit.

[Dylan]

Right.

[Chanel]

And so I knew I had product market fit at that point, but I didn't have the revenue coming in. But if I would have just sat down and, like, figured it out, it would have probably helped me grow a lot faster.

[Dylan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, because you'd have a bigger audience, sponsors to, you know, coming and asking to sponsor your newsletter. It would maybe a hundred bucks. It would have potentially been 500 had you been, you know, had a larger audience and stuff like that.

[Chanel]

Yeah. So I think if I were to start over or do something different after, like, the 5,000 subscriber mark, maybe 10,000, I think it's, like, really prudent to actually go after paid growth, because I feel like growth really stop. Starts slowing down at around, like, 20,000, 30,000. So if you can figure out the funnel before then, I think it's a really good way to continue your growth.

[Dylan]

Yep. Yeah, I can see that. Especially if you do, like you said, have some revenue coming in that you can invest into growth. In fact, I remember interviewing Mike Hauk from Hoax News when I was working at Sparkloop, and he basically was like, I operate my newsletter like a startup. Every dollar it earns goes back into growth. And he just was like, so this is flywheel of. Right. Every revenue dollar that came in after his expenses were paid, of course his bills were paid. He would put any extra profit into growing the newsletter. So it's something that is hard to do because, you know, you're doing this as a Business and also to pay yourself. But he was really diligent about, you know, focusing on that growth aspect. So it's, it's something I, I think about often.

[Chanel]

Yeah, for sure. And that's one of the reasons I started doing paid stuff more recently is, you know, I'm trying to nail down that subscriber, lifetime value type of thing. I'm not there yet, but I think there's like a forcing function, like if you start spending money, you kind of figure it out faster.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Because you're like, well, I'm spending money. Hopefully it comes back. So there's something to that. But I think, yeah, Once you hit 5,000 plus subscribers and you have people replying to your newsletter, you know, you can just tell that there's like an affinity for your content. I think it's a really good idea to kind of keep going with it.

[Dylan]

Yep.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

So what is. Do you have any other big lessons or insights that you want to share that you do differently?

[Chanel]

Relationships have been like the, I would say, the backbone of all of my growth. Like, anything that helps me grow, I can tie back to someone. Which makes sense. Right. Other people have newsletters, they're sharing your stuff. Clearly it's a human behind that. So I think what I would have done better or differently is be more diligent about staying on top of relationships. I feel like I met a lot of people along the way, but I wasn't very good at continuing those relationships throughout the years, months, years, whatever. So I think, I think that would have been. That would have been a really good thing to do. But at the same time, the people who are still around are, you know, much more. I would consider them more of like, closer friends than anything. So.

[Dylan]

Yep.

[Chanel]

I don't know. It's a, it's a balance, but I think spending more time being more diligent about following up with people, you know, in three months, if we, you know, if, if we talk today, in three months, I should follow up and say, like, hey, how are things going? You know, maybe we should collaborate on something.

[Dylan]

Yep.

[Chanel]

That kind of thing.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think, yeah, you people gravitate towards you and, and I think that, you know, without knowing it, you're. You're building. Those relationships are still very sound, whether or not you're reaching out to them over and over again. So. And I think also you're probably not giving yourself enough credit for just like, you know, being a great human who reciprocates a lot of. A lot of a lot into the universe that other People are, you know, they're sharing your stuff and you're more than happy to share their stuff as well. And I think that goes a long way. So I think from an outsider's perspective, you're doing like a really good job of building those relationships and nurturing them too.

[Chanel]

Well, thanks, I appreciate that.

[Dylan]

I think more newsletter operators could probably benefit from that.

[Chanel]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's everything. Right. And those relationships, if for some reason growth and reverse shut down tomorrow. Like I still have those relationships with people which will help me in the future and help them in the future. So I think it's just an interesting, it's more of a long term play than just like a referral program or something like that.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And it's not even building relationships just with, you know, an ulterior motive. You're just genuinely like, like people and want to, want to help them and support them when you can.

[Chanel]

Yeah. So that's definitely a big one. Quality relationships focus. I know we kind of have strayed a little bit from the topic, but if, if I were to start completely over, I don't know, I always think about like, I think the best way to grow a new newsletter is like go on social, write for three to six months about some topic that you're interested in. Figure it's like the Tom Alder playbook. I, I'm sure other people have done this but you know, write different types of content, different ideas, find out what resonates with people, figure out how the algorithm works and then start writing a newsletter. Like put up a wait list four or five months in, start gathering those emails once you have like a topic you're excited about. In some ways I wish I would have done that, but at the same time I don't think I would have started if I did that. So I don't know. It's hard to. It's an interesting balance.

[Dylan]

Yeah, it really is. Depending on, I think a lot on the person. Like Tom was super strategic and he's very like his new so just called strategy breakdowns. He's a, he's a strategic thing. Right. Um, I find I feel you and I are a little bit more guided by energy and passion. Maybe a little bit more. So not that we're not strategic but like, you know, I don't feel like doing X, so therefore I will do. Yeah. And at least I know I can be that way when it comes to certain things. So yeah, just doing the thing is what will help us as opposed to like, okay, here's the plan for the first three months we're do XYZ and then after, you know, at this certain point, then we're going to create the landing page and start validating the idea. And then like by. If I went personally, if I went down that path three months down there, I'd be like, yeah, no, I'm done with this idea. Like I, I'm, I'm. This is too process driven and regimented. And so I think for the right person, that strategy definitely works, but it might not, it might not work for everybody. Everybody's personality. I have one last question just about operations wise, because you're essentially running growth in reverse as a solopreneur for the, for the large long majority of it been being running. Would you have. And correct if I'm wrong, but would you. You didn't really bring in any outside help in the first, you know, 12 to 18 or so months of publishing. Would you have done that earlier on?

[Chanel]

I think I would have hired like a VA type person earlier on.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Yeah. Because after doing that, I think she's been with me now like two months. It's like awesome. Like all the little projects that I've been wanting to do for months and months that I just don't have the time and bandwidth to sit down and do, she's like knocking out in like four hours and I'm like, oh man, come on. These have like been holding up a space, a spot in my brain for so long and it's just like she's like, okay, done. I'm like, what? So I think that could sooner, right? I think that could have really helped me grow faster in a way and, or be more strategic without having to sit down and do the strategy type things. Like I'm a. I'm very good at coming up with ideas, but it's very challenging to get me to actually sit down and create a plan and do all the steps and that kind of thing.

[Dylan]

Execute on the idea.

[Chanel]

Yeah, 100%. So if I would have just brought someone in earlier, I think that would have really helped.

[Dylan]

Nice. And at what point would you feel comfortable bringing somebody in? Even not necessarily somebody on like a payroll where you, you know, have to pay them out every two weeks and they're W2 employee or anything, but just like even a contractor that might be relying on you for a bit of work, how, how early in the process, if you're starting again, would you bring them in?

[Chanel]

I would say as early as possible. Most VA's type of people, they really don't cost a ton, like maybe 1500 bucks a month if you're going like, external, like out of the US or Canada or anything. But I. I think it's so worth it. Like, if you can find a couple sponsors, just cover that person's like, like small amount. You can get someone for full time to like, do all of these little tasks that you haven't wanted to do for a while or just didn't have the mental bandwidth to do. So I think it's. It's definitely something I would've done probably four months, five months in, like after I realized I was gonna stick with this for a while and it was.

[Dylan]

Generating a bit of revenue that you could justify paying somebody to help you with.

[Chanel]

Right, Exactly. And then you essentially have two people for not a ton of money. So.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Cool. Any other closing thoughts?

[Chanel]

Um, I don't know. This was fun to kind of think back of like, what I would do differently. I feel like a lot of the stuff I would have kept the same just because it, it helped guide to where I am now. But yeah, there are definitely some things I would have changed, like hiring someone earlier, as you just mentioned, sticking with a consistent social media posting schedule. I definitely grew a lot slower because I stopped posting on social. So that kind of stinks. But, you know, you just kind of have to accept it after a certain point.

[Dylan]

Mm, yeah, true. It's been an insightful journey and really interesting to hear how you, you know, would approach things if you had to do it again. And I'm curious if you, if all this suddenly burned to the ground, you had to start growth in reverse again, would you start the exact same newsletter?

[Chanel]

I would start the exact same newsletter. I would probably write a post every other week.

[Dylan]

Ah, okay.

[Chanel]

Or somehow get ahead.

[Dylan]

Because after, like lock yourself in a cabin and batch a month's worth of content and then you don't have to write for the rest of the year.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I mean, for the first eight, eight to 10 months, I was probably waking up every Sunday and waking up at like 4:00 to finish the deep dive that was going out at like 9am so it's not really a sustainable work, the work life balance. So I think I would have tried to get ahead a little bit more if I was able to. That's probably the main thing I would change is just the cadence. And then maybe on the off weeks, publish, you know, a shorter piece about something interesting I've seen or even just like a pulling out one growth lever that I've seen work that kind of thing.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been great.

[Chanel]

I appreciate you bringing up this topic. It's a good one, so.