Your Newsletter Is Too Easy to Join — Here’s Why That’s a Problem

Summary

Growth In Reverse Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Your Newsletter Is Too Easy to Join — Here’s Why That’s a Problem
Release Date: July 2, 2025
Hosts: Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop

In this insightful episode of Growth In Reverse, hosts Chenell Basilio and Dylan Redekop delve into a critical aspect of newsletter growth that often gets overlooked: the balance between ease of subscription and subscriber quality. Titled "Your Newsletter Is Too Easy to Join — Here’s Why That’s a Problem," the episode explores the unintended consequences of minimizing friction in the subscription process and offers actionable strategies to attract and retain engaged, high-quality subscribers.

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The Pitfall of Low-Quality, High-Quantity Subscriber Lists

Chanel opens the discussion by highlighting a common frustration among email marketers: the surge of unsolicited emails flooding inboxes. “There was a period of time where it felt like every other email I was getting, I was like, I don't remember subscribing to this or how I subscribe to this,” she remarks [00:00]. This phenomenon underscores the danger of prioritizing subscriber counts over the actual quality of the audience.

Dylan reinforces this point by emphasizing that a large subscriber list doesn't guarantee engagement or revenue. “Sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers. You end up with a larger list than you probably would have otherwise of people who might not really want your content,” he explains [00:10]. This imbalance can lead to decreased open rates and lower overall engagement, ultimately hindering the newsletter's effectiveness.

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The Value of Subscriber Quality

The hosts agree that focusing solely on growing the subscriber base can be detrimental. Chanel adds that increasing friction doesn't necessarily mean driving away potential subscribers but ensuring that those who do subscribe are genuinely interested and likely to engage with the content. “It's not always in your best interest to reduce [friction] at all costs,” she notes [00:25].

Dylan shares his personal experience with managing his newsletter's subscriber list. “I wasn't cleaning my list as well as I probably should have been. Now I'm like hyper cleaning my list,” he admits [05:02]. By removing inactive subscribers, he observed an improvement in open rates and overall engagement, demonstrating the tangible benefits of maintaining a high-quality list.

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Strategies for Introducing Friction

The conversation shifts to practical methods for incorporating friction into the subscription process without alienating genuine subscribers. The hosts outline two primary approaches:

1. Backend Filtering and List Cleaning

   • Dylan discusses the importance of regularly pruning the subscriber list to remove inactive users. “I'm adding about the same people I'm removing, but open rates start to go up,” he shares [05:13].
   • This method ensures that only engaged subscribers remain, enhancing the newsletter’s performance metrics.

2. Adding Friction During Signup

   • Chanel recalls her corporate marketing days when downloading resources required filling out multiple fields. “You had to fill out like six fields, like your first name, last name, place of work,” she reminisces [06:28].
   • Implementing similar measures in newsletter signups can help filter out less interested individuals. For instance, asking for a first name adds a minimal barrier but increases the likelihood of attracting engaged subscribers [09:08].

Double Opt-In Techniques:

• Dylan introduces the concept of false double opt-in, where subscribers appear to confirm their intent without actually being removed from the list if they don’t. This approach allows for re-engagement campaigns targeting those who haven’t confirmed their subscriptions [09:30].
• Conversely, traditional double opt-in requires explicit confirmation, which can lead to a significant number of pending subscribers who never engage [11:29]. Chanel highlights her experience with 55,000 pending subscribers versus 43,000 active ones [11:32], illustrating the potential drawbacks of strict double opt-in practices.

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Practical Implementation Tips

To effectively implement friction, the hosts provide several actionable strategies:

• Personalization Fields: Adding a first name field can personalize the subscription process without deterring signups [09:20].

• Optimized Landing Pages: Maintaining a streamlined landing page focused solely on subscription can reduce distractions and improve conversion rates. However, for traffic from less targeted sources, adding elements like navigation menus can introduce necessary friction [14:31].

• Tailored Friction Based on Traffic Sources: For instance, subscribers acquired through paid ads on platforms like Facebook might require additional verification steps to ensure quality, as these channels can attract a broader, less targeted audience [14:36].

• Interactive Elements: Incorporating polls or quizzes within the subscription flow can engage users and verify their interest. Dylan mentions using polls to confirm subscriber intent, which also helps in filtering out bots [29:56].

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Best Practices: Unsubscribe Options

Maintaining list quality isn't solely about how subscribers join but also how they exit. The hosts advocate for clear and accessible unsubscribe links:

• Prominent Unsubscribe Links: Chanel emphasizes placing the unsubscribe option prominently in the welcome email. “I have that on every broadcast. It’s like, hey, you're receiving just a reminder why you're getting this email,” she explains [19:12]. This transparency helps ensure that only those genuinely interested remain on the list.

• Consistency Across Emails: Repeating the unsubscribe option in every email serves as a constant reminder, allowing uninterested subscribers to opt out easily without feeling trapped [20:57].

Examples from the Field:

• Miles Bechler, an affiliate marketer, places the unsubscribe link at the top of every email, enhancing transparency and reducing the likelihood of spam complaints [17:33].

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Conclusion: Navigating the Future of Newsletter Subscriptions

As the digital landscape becomes increasingly saturated with newsletters, the need for quality over quantity becomes paramount. Chanel aptly summarizes the episode’s essence: “We're going to get to this point where we're going to be all very over subscribed,” reflecting on the impending challenges of attention scarcity [31:01].

Dylan concurs, stressing the importance of introducing friction to maintain a high standard of subscriber engagement and overall newsletter effectiveness. “Something’s got to give,” he concludes [31:18].

By thoughtfully incorporating friction into both the signup and onboarding processes, newsletter creators can cultivate a loyal and engaged audience, ensuring sustained growth and revenue without compromising on quality.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers.” — Chanel [00:10]
• “I wasn't cleaning my list as well as I probably should have been. Now I'm like hyper cleaning my list.” — Dylan [05:02]
• “It's not always in your best interest to reduce [friction] at all costs.” — Chanel [00:25]
• “We're going to get to this point where we're going to be all very over subscribed.” — Chanel [31:01]

This episode serves as a crucial reminder that in the quest for growth, maintaining the integrity and engagement of your subscriber base is essential for long-term success.

Transcript

[Chanel]

There was a period of time where it felt like every other email I was getting, I was like, I don't remember subscribing to this or how I subscribe to this. I think we're going to get to this point where we're going to be all very over subscribed.

[Dylan]

It can be really easy to get so focused on that bigger subscriber count. But you don't realize, like sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers. You end up with a larger list than you probably would have otherwise of people who might not really want your content.

[Chanel]

That opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to friction and types of subscribers and that sort of thing that we could get into. But friction isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's not always in your best interest to reduce it at all costs.

[Dylan]

Welcome back to the Growth in Reverse podcast. I'm Chanel. And I'm Dylan and we're in Boise.

[Chanel]

Idaho coming at you irl.

[Dylan]

Irl.

[Chanel]

Irl Live for the first time.

[Dylan]

Yeah, well, second time, people don't need to know that.

[Chanel]

But yeah, we are in Boise. We're at the kit studios. We are, we are right in the thick of the Craft and Commerce conference. And as part of the conference they've let us use these kit studios for free. We just had to book the time and it's been great. It's such a really very cool and handy resource that they've let us use.

[Dylan]

You just sit down and like hit record and then we have like this beautiful space with perfect lighting and if.

[Chanel]

You can't hear us, it's there their fault.

[Dylan]

Exactly. Perfect.

[Chanel]

Yeah. So what brings us to this room today? What are we going to chat about?

[Dylan]

Yeah, so we kind of talked about this a little bit on a recent episode, but the concept of introducing friction into newsletters and you and I have talked about this, I think the fact that we've gotten so far in the other direction of like making it super simple, finding as many subscribers as possible and people aren't necessarily talking all, all that much about quality and like adding friction back into the process to make sure you're getting the right folks.

[Chanel]

So yeah, I think the pendulum has swung very far. One way to like, like you said, make it as simple as possible to get subscribers by doing tons of different things. We've talked on the podcast about only having an email field or eliminating any other options for people to do on the landing page, using recommendations potentially and, and cross promotions, that sort of thing. Um, I know Sparkloop even had like the, the magic link back in the day where you could just click once and. And you were instantly subscribed to that newsletter in somebody else's recommendation. So like a one click subscribe. So all these things have stripped away any friction that people used to have when it came to subscribing to newsletters. And that was like, as people who are like trying to grow an audience, that was a great thing. But it comes with downsides.

[Dylan]

Totally. Yeah. I mean, you end up with a larger list than you probably would have otherwise of people who might not really want your content.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And are just, you know, archiving it or filtering it out somewhere, not reading it. And then your open rates go down. The quality is not as high and so you get frustrated as a creator and it just has all these downward effects.

[Chanel]

I think it can for sure. And you can be smart about the way that you are ensuring that these subscribers coming from these different paths are going to be the right kind of subscriber for you. But I think that's what we want to talk about. Right. It's like, how do we, what can we do to add a little bit more friction back into the whole subscriber subscribing and onboarding process so that you're not just getting some vagrant subscriber who just kind of came along through a recommendation or some other avenue and is not wanting to stick around, not opening a single newsletter. That one that you're potentially paying for. Right. You're potentially paying for the subscriber. So this could be costing you money as well. So I think it's an important topic.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I agree. That's why we're here today.

[Chanel]

So where should we start? We've kind of gotten over the concept of friction, but let's talk about maybe just the, a little bit more in depth kind of the downsides of why we would want to add some friction. Like what is really ultimately the kind of the worst case scenario that can happen for people who are getting tons of subscribers who are just not engaging.

[Dylan]

Yeah. I mean, hypothesize about the worst case, but I think if you think back to like the goal of the newsletter, like we want to potentially make sales and like have sponsors be happy or any partners we're working with, they're actually getting other customers from our email list. Like you want those things. You don't just want to see the number go up.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And so it can be really easy to get so focused on that bigger subscriber count, especially when you See other folks with these huge lists and you're like, oh, they must be making millions of dollars. I want that. But you don't realize like the back end of, of the thing and sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers. Especially these days with how easy it is to grow a newsletter with recommendations and that kind of thing. Um, you can look at someone who has this huge list, but it might not be as good as you think it is.

[Chanel]

Do you want to talk to your own experience in, in those two regards just to give some people some context that you've kind of experienced this to some degree when it comes to both the Creator Network, which is, which is by and large a great initiative and a good thing, I think. But there's elements that you can incorporate that we're going to talk about to make it even better for you. So there's that and then also like cross promotions because you've experienced that end as well.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So maybe share because your list you get, you get a lot of new subscribers every day because you're pretty popular in the creator world. In the Creator Network, a lot of people are recommending your newsletter. So what does that impact on you and how, what's that experience been like?

[Dylan]

Yeah, it's funny because for a long time I wasn't cleaning my list as well as I probably should have been. So now I'm like hyper cleaning my list, I feel like. And so growth has definitely slowed in some regards. I'm like, I probably talked to these people three months ago. My list is probably the same size just because I keep deleting people and like I, I'm not using paid ads or anything yet. So it's kind of staying stagnant even though, so even though like I'm adding about the same people I'm removing but you know, open rates start to go up and like there are more signals of people being engaged and happier on the list. And I think for a long time I was just like adding subscribers through recommendations and I was like, I should probably do something with these people because a lot of them are not opening to the extent as like an organic subscriber would. Yeah, like a typical subscriber.

[Chanel]

So there's two things that come to mind. One is if you're reducing as much friction as possible on the opt in, then you need to really kind of hedge your bets on the back end on the onboarding process when people are actually coming in so that you can, they can show you that they are meant to be there. That they're going to be engaged and a valuable subscriber or, you know, get the hell out kind of thing. Right. Like, get out of here. We don't, we don't want your cold email subscriber tendencies.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

You're not serving us or any of our partners. So that's one thing. And then the other, the other, other element of it is if you don't do that, you can just really add a ton of friction up front to make sure that the person who's subscribing definitely wants to subscribe.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And there's a few, few ways you could do that. And it takes me back to like maybe 10 years ago when I was working corporate marketing and I would be looking at reports that I wanted to download from maybe a company like HubSpot, for example, comes to mind. And you had to fill out like six fields, like your first name, last name, place of work, number of employees. So you basically had this whole, like, survey to get this white paper or this resource. And I remember I usually would fill it up. Sometimes I'm just like, I just don't want this information bad enough to fill all this out or I don't want to give them the information they're asking me. Um, so I think that's one way if you don't want to do the backend stuff or you don't have the ability or the knowledge to do that. One, you should probably learn. But two, you could definitely add the more friction up front. So there's kind of two ways to go about the, the whole friction thing.

[Dylan]

Yeah. And you, you could think about it like, like I'm someone who's like, I'd rather get more people on my list and kick them off later.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

If they're not engaged or whatever. Just because I, I don't know. I don't like making people. I know personally as a user, I hate those forms. And HubSpot still does it. Workweek definitely does this now where it's like first name, last name, job title, industry, like annual income. And I'm like, can we ask that like, on the next screen?

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

But their email lists are probably super high quality.

[Chanel]

They are. And they, they have B2B advertisers.

[Dylan]

Yes.

[Chanel]

They have people they need to make sure are in the right audience. They also want that information, that demographic information too.

[Dylan]

Right. And so we also should probably mention that Both Workweek and HubSpot are B2B first. So in that space, I'm sure that's a great thing to do. Like, you're going to get those people to fill that out. But for just like an average creator, like they probably don't need that right away. Like, yes, getting data is important, but maybe get it on the thank you page or in the welcome email or something like that so you still can get that data. It just doesn't have to be right away.

[Chanel]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. So let's talk about different ways that people can maybe add a bit of friction into their. I just realized I'm not wearing my glasses and so I don't want to throw people off. So I'm gonna put them on because.

[Dylan]

No, no. Okay. Not halfway through. Get outta here.

[Chanel]

And I lost my train of thought. But we were gonna talk about. Yes. The ways that people can add friction. So whether it's in the signup or even in the onboarding process, just to make sure that the person who's coming all the way through is meant to be there.

[Dylan]

So I guess the obvious one, like on most of my forums I just ask for email address. You could ask for a first name that adds a little bit of friction. Not a ton, but it's still showing a little bit more intent on the subscriber.

[Chanel]

Yep. And the bonuses. Then you can always use that personalization element Right. In your newsletter if need be. Some people like that and use it all the time, some people don't. That's fine. But at least you have it.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Which is. Which is fun. What's another way?

[Dylan]

Um, we can do double opt in which I don't necessarily recommend, but maybe doing false double opt in instead. Where it to the the user and the email subscriber, it looks like the real double opt in on the back end. Like if they don't click that button in the first email or the link that you asked them to, they're still on your list and you can like re engage them with another email and like make sure they're real. And a lot of the times that will save a subscriber. So if you just have straight double opt in, you can often lose people that you would have otherwise had.

[Chanel]

Yeah. Because if you're not aware just what double opt in is different ESPs to kind of COVID their butts to some degree. They want to make sure that the person who is subscribing is a real person. They get the email to their real email address and that email will basically say thanks for signing up, but please confirm your subscription and you click a button in that email and that does the trick. If you don't have that subscriber, click that button. They sit in like this limbo purgatory place where you can't email them.

[Dylan]

Right?

[Chanel]

I mean, unless you manually add them to your email list, which is definitely a no. No, but you can actually email them. They're not included in your email list. They're unconfirmed in kit as an example. And so you're kind of just stuck and they might be lost forever and they might have been a good subscriber. You'll just never know. And I think we had, we've mentioned this before on the podcast, but uh, Dave and Marsden Klein were on the podcast and they told us they had almost a larger number of people in their unconfirmed list than they had actually on their email list.

[Dylan]

Confirm.

[C]

If I could show you under the hood, Chanel, you'd be so embarrassed for us.

[Dylan]

I doubt it.

[C]

Um, well, how about I will give you a stat and then you can see if you want to reclaim that. Um, we have, we have a 43,000 person status active newsletter list. Like our open rates, mid-40s click through rates pretty solid, like 4 or 5%. Guess how many pending subscribers I have because I have double opt in enabled.

[Dylan]

No.

[C]

There you go.

[Dylan]

Oh, no. Stadium we could sell. Oh my God. It's got to be at least like 20k or something.

[C]

You're so close. It's 55,000.

[Chanel]

Huh.

[Dylan]

Wow. So more people that are then are on your email list at this point are just pending.

[C]

Yes.

[Dylan]

Ouch.

[Chanel]

You could definitely create a double opt in of your own where it's like a false double opt in. They're still automatically confirmed, but you're adding this point of friction of like, hey, click this button to confirm. And if they don't, then maybe you could send them into an automation that's like, hey, we need to check on these people who aren't clicking, tag them and then we will send them a re engagement campaign in 14 days, in 30 days, whatever that might be. And if they aren't actually clicking and opening our emails, then we just get rid of them.

[Dylan]

Yeah, this is my favorite way to do things too. Just because, I don't know, I'm like a digital hoarder in a sense. But also like I have had this happen to me where you know, I'll subscribe to something, I miss that email and then I'm like, where is that newsletter?

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And then like sometimes I'll remembering like re sign up, but other times like I don't and I just forget.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And I could have potentially Been a good subscriber, but I don't know, they don't have me on.

[Chanel]

Could have done a deep dive on you, but you had single opt in.

[Dylan]

But also like, I know it, there is some legalities with it. So we don't want to like tell everyone not to do double opt in.

[Chanel]

Totally. Yeah. So some European countries and some other places definitely are basically a legality that you have a double opt in set up on your email. So we are not lawyers or financial advisors. So don't take this. Don't take this as financial or email legality advice.

[Dylan]

Totally.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Cool. Do you want to talk? I don't. Is there anything like that mostly comes to mind for like the generic ways to add friction? Because I have some interesting ideas and things I've seen.

[Chanel]

But the first name, I guess another way we tell people to keep their landing pages super simple.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So again, with an organic subscriber, I think you'll run into this a lot less with somebody who comes through organically. Maybe they Click through your LinkedIn profile, they land on your landing page, they sign up. I think that person is far less likely to be a quote unquote bad or poor quality subscriber. So adding friction there may not necessarily make sense. However, if you are driving traffic in other ways that is going to see a lot more eyeballs or a lot more traffic from places that might not be the most ideal subscribers. If you're doing a collaboration or cross promotion or whatever that might be, that's where you could add some of these elements. And the other one that we talk about is even adding like your. Your navigation menu back in. Just like having a distraction potentially either guide them somewhere else or have them really focus on. No, I just, I want to subscribe to this newsletter. It's kind of a weird one, but we've tried to strip down this landing page to make it like super clearly focused on just enter your email address and hit subscribe. Then maybe adding different components, I guess is my main point on your homepage. Just to see what happens and if, if they'll actually subscribe. Could be one way to add friction.

[Dylan]

Yeah. I think again it goes back to goals like and traffic sources.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Because if you're running Facebook ads or something, you probably want to add some friction.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Make sure they're like good quality. Especially if you're running Facebook ads with like you're only targeting lookalike audiences of actual subscribers or customers. You want to make sure that they're actually good people.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Versus like just getting every Single person through. Which makes me think of Facebook ads with lead forms. Have you ever seen these?

[Chanel]

Ooh, I don't think so.

[Dylan]

So when I don't go on Facebook anyway.

[Chanel]

Keep going.

[Dylan]

Well, it's with Instagram too, but. So a lead form ad is typically early ad is typically. People will see the ad, they click the button and it auto opens this form.

[Chanel]

Okay.

[Dylan]

Within Facebook. And Facebook says, do you want to autofill your email address? And to me that is the opposite of friction. Like you're making it super simple. Which is great in a way. If you're going for pure number and you're just trying to build a million subscriber email list, fine.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

However, for most of us, you probably want to add some friction and make sure these are high quality leads. And if it's way too easy to get someone on your list from a paid ad, I wonder if that's the best route. Yeah. So on Facebook you can either do that or you can send them to a. A landing page y where then they have to go through the normal process. So I'm not sure. I guess the, the jury's out there. But I have to wonder if there's something to making it way too simple on Facebook.

[Chanel]

I think you should probably incorporate a little bit of friction there. At least that's my first thought. Also depends on what you're advertising. So there's the I'm just advertising my newsletter or I'm advertising like a lead magnet or a report. And then you're added to my email list. That opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to friction and types of subscribers and that sort of thing that we could get into. But I guess my, my one thought is like, what would you defer to? I know people are doing Facebook ads to both, but if like you were to run ads, I know this isn't an ad show, but what would you run to and how would that landing page look to make sure that you're getting people who are interested, but also like making sure that you're not getting people who are just like window shoppers. You know what I mean?

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think. And one of the things on my list was like, make sure that on the landing page you are calling out the exact subscriber. And I think something fun to do would actually be like. And I don't know how this would work, so don't take this as like gospel, but have like the email subscriber box and then underneath instead of like a GDPR checkbox, have a checkbox that says I agree that I am trying to grow my newsletter or like for me, for example.

[Chanel]

Or fill in the blank of.

[Dylan]

Yeah, or like I agree that I am a B2B founder looking to scale my company or something just to show an extra step of intent. I think that could be a cool little element.

[Chanel]

Yeah. A little bit of friction but not too hard and sort of like it makes you confirm that you are kind of that avatar of person that they want to have on their list and that you actually will get value from it.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I think that could be a cool way to like self select and like have them show intention of like taking action on what you're gonna give them.

[Chanel]

But also probably have the GDPR thing.

[Dylan]

Too if they need it.

[Chanel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I get your. I get what you're saying. That is, that is an interesting way. Do you have any other clever ideas like that?

[Dylan]

Uh, well, I remember I used to be subscribed to a newsletter from Miles Bechler. He was like an affiliate marketing guy, I think. Um, and he used to put his unsubscribe link at the very top of every single email. So like most people put it at the bottom or like maybe try and hide it a little bit. He was like, nope, if you don't want to be on this email list, it's right at the top.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

And he would send a daily email. So like, I think that's a good use of that. But I still think you can do something similar with weekly. But yeah, I totally. Super simple to unsubscribe.

[Chanel]

I'm all for that. And I've never understood why people hide a unsubscribe link. Yeah, like making it hard for people to leave your email list. So people who already don't like what you're putting out there don't want to receive your emails and you're pissing them off that much more by hiding or like burying really tiny font. Unsubscribe. It's like you're just asking to get like flagged and I don't know, it just, it doesn't make sense to me.

[Dylan]

I feel like banks and like e commerce brands do this a lot. Like bigger e commerce brands, not like the smaller ones. Yeah, they'll like make it the same color as like the background of the email. I'm like, that is A, that's definitely not legal and B, shady. That's. So your list quality is probably so low.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I mean they probably just don't care.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Or you get. You force Gmail to, like, clip your email right before the unsubscribe thing. So then you have to hit, like, show full email.

[Chanel]

Right. Right.

[Dylan]

Drives me insane.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I've. I've had that experience too, which also drives me insane. I don't know if they've intentionally done it, but I'm like, this is a lot. Like, I'm trying to find the unsubscribe, and it's always clipped, and I gotta open the whole thing.

[Dylan]

And I have a feeling some of them are intentional.

[Chanel]

Now, this is the point of friction. Unsubscribe friction, which we don't. We don't want to create.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

I think that's. That's an interesting one. Just keeping your list quality super high.

[Chanel]

Yeah. Just to go back to that unsubscribe thing, I love that idea because I put that in my welcome email, like, front and center.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Because I want people who are getting that, because your welcome email is going to be your most opened email. So I've got the best opportunity to make sure you're like, you're in or you're out. So I want to make that unsubscribe option very obvious so you don't miss it. And it's like, do you want to be here or not? Here's what my newsletter is about and what to expect. And if you're not, if you're out, that's cool. Like, we can still be friends or we don't have to be. You can unsubscribe either way. I don't want you to be here if you don't want to be here.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And that's kind of the. The idea I approach it with or.

[Dylan]

The business approach you with.

[Chanel]

Especially.

[Dylan]

Especially with, like, recommendations.

[Chanel]

Yes, exactly.

[Dylan]

Definitely have that box up there at the top. Um, I've seen people like, Chris Hutchins does this with his newsletter. Right at the top. He'll put, you know, hey, you subscribe via recommendations if you don't want this unsubscribe. Yeah, no heart, like, whatever. No hard feelings. And he keeps that on for, like, the first month, I think, of a new subscriber's journey. So it's. It's nice to remind people, especially if they're coming from recommendations. Like, having a unique welcome email or unique sequence is great. If they get past that welcome email and they still. Or like, I don't remember who this person is, or they miss the welcome email, and it's like, wow, where is this email coming from?

[Chanel]

Totally.

[Dylan]

So having that recommendations, like, unsubscribe box is awesome.

[Chanel]

Yeah, I think it's important. I, I know I'm, I've mentioned this before, but I just keep it on every broadcast. I've got a, it's like, it's smaller font so like you kind of have to, I don't know, zoom in a little bit. I mean it's not so small you can't read it. But my point is like I've got this like block at the top and it basically says, hey, you're receiving just a reminder why you're getting this email. You sign up via XYZ channels and if you don't want to be here, here's the unsubscribe. And it's not.

[Dylan]

You do that for every email.

[Chanel]

Every email.

[Dylan]

But what if they've been on for.

[Chanel]

Like three months, they see it, then it just becomes part of the background. It's background scenery and they just kind of ignore it.

[Dylan]

Huh. I wonder if you could like, if they've opened 100% of your emails or clicked on 50% if you could just remove that box.

[Chanel]

I probably could. I probably could. Maybe I need to do some liquid code action to like take it off. This person has 100% open rate. Okay. They don't need to see it every time.

[Dylan]

Ye, yeah, yeah.

[Chanel]

No, I've just, I set it up that way and I think I just got really sick of getting emails myself where. And there was a period of time where it was. It felt like every other email I was getting I was like, I don't remember subscribing to this or how I subscribed to this or even if it was somebody who had hadn't sent an email in like months or maybe even a year. Like I totally forgot who they are or, or maybe they changed their newsletter. Like all these things I think we just like internalize. Like everybody knows who I am. Not from an ego standpoint that you're almost like it from a self conscious like, oh, they knew who I am. And I feel guilty that I've been away for so long and so like, hey, it's me. And you're kind of like, what? I don't, I don't remember you. Or like I read two of your newsletters before you went on this like year long break or whatever it is. So I guess I got too many of those and I was just like, I'm putting this thing in there and I'm just gonna leave it. So yeah, it's there every time. Yeah.

[Dylan]

That's interesting.

[Chanel]

It also has links to my Landing pages for other resources. So I know there's opportunity there for people to click through if they want to check out those. They're curious, so that could happen too. Anyway, digressing.

[Dylan]

What else? Any. Any others that you were thinking of?

[Chanel]

Any other points of friction? I could pull up my notes, but really, I think it just comes down to, like, to. To a degree, like, what kind of newsletter are you building? I think we've talked about, like, creator newsletters versus, like big media newsletters or B2B newsletters. So people like Adam over at Work Week and his whole team and that sort of thing, they want to make sure they have the right subscriber, right?

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And so they. They add that friction. I think that's important. And Adam's pretty. He's a pretty big proponent of doing that sort of thing. He was very. I'll just say he's very, like, anti recommendations. Yeah, right. He just thinks co Reg is like the devil to some degree. Like, it works, but it's. It's crap for quality. He worked at the Hustle and they. He saw that sort of thing behind the scenes play out. So, I mean, but if you are building this larger. Trying to build this. Is it a numbers game for you? Then. Yeah. You want to eliminate as much friction as possible. If you just want to get this really big email list and you're trying to sell impressions and eyeballs to advertisers, then I could see where you wouldn't want to create that friction. The argument, on the other hand, would be, well, don't you want good return for those advertisers?

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And good open rates. So it kind of still matters.

[Dylan]

Yeah, definitely. The one other thing I was thinking about that would be kind of interesting to test is. Is like, create a welcome sequence that, like, people have to take certain actions to actually get added to your email list. I don't know who would do this, but I think it's an interesting idea to say, like, okay, over the next six days or seven days, you're gonna get emails and please complete all the actions and then I will send you a bonus gift and you get added to the email list or something. It would be for a very specific type of creator, I think. But there is something to that of like having people, A, start learning to open your emails and take action and. And B, is just like making sure they're engaged. Um, so I don't know. That's probably way overkill, but it is. If you want to add friction, it's. It's something you could try.

[Chanel]

You could. You totally could. I think that would work better with, like, somebody who is coming new to the newsletter space, who has some kind of celebrity status to some degree where they have a big audience already. Or maybe you got a huge Instagram following or whatever that might be, and you're trying to start this newsletter thing, but you don't want like every single one of your Instagram followers. I don't know why that might be the case, but maybe you just know that, like, only 2% of those people are actually gonna ever buy anything from you or whatever that number might be. Might be.

[Dylan]

Maybe. Maybe this is better for like a re. Engagement.

[Chanel]

Yeah, that could be.

[Dylan]

Like you have a list. You haven't emailed them in a year. It's like, hey, over the next three days, I'm gonna do a couple things. Like, if you wanna keep getting this email, don't just click. Cause I'm getting so unconfident with click triggers and like link triggers and all that stuff because bot opens and clicks and all that. I'm just not convinced that those are actually all real people who are clicking.

[Chanel]

Their mouse and actually like, wanting to.

[Dylan]

Like, I'm sure a good percentage are, but I feel like the bot system changes so frequently that certain things just, like, get through the, like slip through the cracks and you end up with like. I don't know. I remember sending emails before where in the first 30 seconds it's like, oh, my God, I have 800 people who click this link. There's no way.

[Chanel]

No. So Apple Mail. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dylan]

So I don't love the link trigger option just because I don't feel like it's as concrete.

[Chanel]

But do you know definitively if those Apple Mail or whatever bot clicks, if those will trigger like a link trigger or if those will, like, tag people if you've set like a tag on that link.

[Dylan]

Nathan Barry was actually talking about this the other day. He said they have systems that work well, but this, the. The bots. And then like the Apple Mail things, like, they get so convoluted to. Like, the bots will. Or the Apple mail will look for bots. So the bots try and act like humans. It's like a really complex thing and it gets so hard to stay on top of that. Like, it's almost impossible to catch them all. And, like, they're just constantly evolving. Yeah, which is why I don't trust link. It's my spicy take. I haven't used them in a very long time. I will go back, like, after seven days and tag some of those people afterwards if I think they're actually like nothing went crazy. And like that link didn't get like over clicked, if you will.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Like 20% of my email list didn't click it.

[Chanel]

Yeah, yeah. You found when you put, just anecdotally when you put links in images.

[Dylan]

Oh yeah.

[Chanel]

In your emails, those like your links or your click are like through the roof.

[Dylan]

Yeah. I think Jeremy Ends actually taught me this one. It was like he's. If you put an image in your email and then link something on the back end of like ruins your clicks.

[Chanel]

That'S just flagged for spam.

[Dylan]

And I've seen that. I think it doesn't happen every time, but I would say 80% of the time I do that, it completely jacks up the links.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And ever since you taught me that I have not done it. So I can't, I can't verify whether this is true or not on my end or whether happens to me or not. But I found that really interesting and a good warning because I'm just like, no, I'm not doing that.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Which is why like I try not to put YouTube videos in the emails, but some days I'm like, well, let's just see what happens.

[Chanel]

But what about like, you know how kit and most platforms will embed the thumbnail. Right. With the play button.

[Dylan]

But it still has a link behind it.

[Chanel]

I know, but is that a link or is that an embed.

[Dylan]

It's still a link in or sorry.

[Chanel]

Is it an image? I mean like. Cause that would be, to me that feels like that would be different than.

[Dylan]

We're getting so nerdy with this one.

[Chanel]

I don't know.

[Dylan]

We are, we'll have to test it out.

[Chanel]

I think we're, we're in over our heads here. I think, I think the whole point is like friction isn't necessarily a bad thing and it for the last five to 10 years it's like been viewed probably as like reduce it at all costs.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

I think our whole, our whole message here is like it's not always in your best interest to reduce it at all costs.

[Dylan]

Right.

[Chanel]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

A couple of things I will say, collaborations, recommendations, like try and get the most quality, high quality partners you can because if you go after just like anyone and everyone, you're going to end up with more subscribers that you don't necessarily need and aren't the right people. I just feel like that needs to be talked about in this conversation.

[Chanel]

It's a very valid point. It's a very valid point, but there are definitely ideal collaborators and unideal collaborators for sure. One other idea when we were just kind of spitballing talking about this episode was like the. The anti growth email.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

So maybe there's. It would only work for a certain probably type of creator person newsletter. Um, but if you just had like a. You only get added to my email if you perform certain actions kind of along the lines of what you're saying. And I'm only allowing a certain number of people to subscribe.

[Dylan]

I've talked about doing this before, like only 20,000 or 10,000 on my email list and like throwing everybody out. And if you don't open the emails or click on specific links or something, like you get kicked off and somebody else can take your place. I think that's a cool concept.

[Chanel]

I think it is because we're so focused on like grow the list. Grow the list. Grow the list. And it's not like, what if we could just give like 100% open rate, but there's only like a thousand people on your list.

[Dylan]

Yeah. I wonder if it's. If we're thinking about it wrong and it's not necessarily a cap, it's just like hyper engagement engagement. Like if you don't like better click.

[Chanel]

On this link or I swear to.

[Dylan]

God, like in the beginning of your emails instead of saying that you should say like if you want to stay on here. I only look for people who open 75% of my emails or something.

[Chanel]

Yep. They would have to open the email to see that.

[Dylan]

If it's in every email, I would hope they'd see at least one.

[Chanel]

That's true.

[Dylan]

If not, they are not.

[Chanel]

Or that could be your welcome email, right?

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

If you want to stay on the list, you better open.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Or you remove. You could give people like every month or something have like a new prize or like something cool like special like Justin Moore special research or something. He's found.

[Chanel]

That's true.

[Dylan]

And then like if you've opened so many emails, you actually get that sent to you and if you don't, you don't.

[Chanel]

Yeah. And you can do that now automatically in some ESPs where it's like it. It can check and see if you open it. Of course. Again.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

Apple mail, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Dylan]

Or maybe you have to fill out a poll like Caitlyn Burgoyne does now with her Friday emails.

[Chanel]

That's right.

[Dylan]

Like you have to fill out one poll a week.

[Chanel]

Don't even fill out, just click like you Just click.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

A selection. Right. A poll. A poll. Question, answer.

[Dylan]

Well, the cool thing with polls and why they're different from link triggers is like there's that second action. Like you have to confirm it. But a bot can't do that. That's bot, I don't think.

[Chanel]

Well, I'm sure they can. Yeah, but it's more bot proof, I guess.

[Dylan]

I think of like those old school TV shows where the kid would have like a chicken hitting the bar to.

[Chanel]

Like, was that Homer Simpson maybe? Yeah, it was. It totally was. Oh my God. Back when the Simpsons was relevant and good. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I. I really like that idea. And I think we could have a whole episode on like how you could like just gamify your newsletter a bit more and make it more, I don't know, engaging. And like, I open certain newsletters because, like, maybe they have like a trivia question or they're just adding an element of like fun and intrigue and gamification to it, I think could be a lot of fun.

[Dylan]

Like creating fomo. More like in more than. You got a new article this week?

[Chanel]

Yeah, like, yeah, well, yeah, like, so did 50 other people sent me a new article and I can't read them all. Yeah, no, I think that's. This is all. I think we're going to get to this point where just things need to change because we're going to be all very over subscribed.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Chanel]

And our subscribers are going to feel that and just with more and more recommendations. Every time you subscribe to a new newsletter, you're subscribing to three others or five others or whatever it might be, just attention is just going to be so capped because people have more newsletters in their inbox and they don't have more hours in the day. So something's got to give.

[Dylan]

Yeah, totally. Add more friction.

[Chanel]

Let's get frictional. No, no, that's a pod. All right, That's a pod.