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Next in Media
A Top Digital Talent Manager Talks About the Creator Brand Bubble, and Where to Find the Next 'Mormon Wives'
00:29:01
Next in Media spoke with Scott Fisher, founder of Select Management Group and creator economy veteran, about whether top creators still want to seek out big streaming deals, given the success they can have on YouTube, and what happens next if TikTok Shop goes away.
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- [00:00]
Sarah Chung
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- [00:40]
Mike Shields
Week on Next in Media, I'm kicking off a year long series with my friends at View Planner on the YouTube ecosystem. We're planning a series of standalone episodes.
- [00:47]
Sarah Chung
Focused on all things YouTube media and advertising. And to kick things off, I spoke with Scott Fisher.
- [00:52]
Mike Shields
He's the founder of Select Management Group.
- [00:54]
Sarah Chung
Scott's been tied to the creator economy.
- [00:55]
Mike Shields
For a long while, working with stars like Tyler Oakley and the likes of.
- [00:58]
Sarah Chung
Sarah Chung, who just raised a ton of capital to launch her own beauty brand. Plus, Scott's team is behind the rise of the secret lives of Mormon wives. So he's got a great perspective on when brands want to work with creators. Whether top talent still wants to pop on YouTube or TikTok or make that leap to TV.
- [01:12]
Mike Shields
Let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to Nexty Media. I'm Mike Shields. I'm here with Scott Fisher. He is a partner and founder of Select Management Group. Is that right, Scott?
- [01:36]
Scott Fisher
Yes.
- [01:37]
Mike Shields
So lots to talk to you about about the Creator Media YouTube space. Give us a, like a quick what is Select Management Group? And then I'd love to get into like how do we place you in this universe now? How should brands think of you versus other companies?
- [01:52]
Scott Fisher
Yeah. So select is a talent management company. We started 15 years ago representing early days of YouTube talent and have since obviously grown to represent all kinds of talent across so all types of social media, traditional talent, the whole gamut. And we originally started back when it was a big deal to have 100,000 followers and make $100,000 a year on.
- [02:13]
Mike Shields
YouTube or even have an agent.
- [02:14]
Scott Fisher
Right.
- [02:15]
Mike Shields
It was, was, was a big deal at that point.
- [02:16]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, it was. And even like a lot of the agencies weren't even working with digital talent at the time because it just wasn't enough of a business to make sense for them. But I was early in the space started to think about them as real talent, not just as influencers. And having grown up watching these people, I kind of already saw them as celebrities in my head, so I treated them the same. So they, I knew from day one would eventually do consumer products, would eventually go on tour, would eventually write books. There was no reason that they wouldn't. So we kind of built the company around that thesis that you can take someone who has some social following, but then build out a real business around them and all of the things they do can work together to feed the machine. And there was a time where it was me with an assistant managing 30 clients. And now the company is a team of 60. We have 450 clients. We own stakes in some very large consumer brands. We produce content. Uh, we have one of the number one shows on Hulu. So it's, it's evolved into what I had hoped it would become and more. Uh, so it's been great.
- [03:24]
Mike Shields
So I bet you around that time, most of the talent, if they were talking to agencies, were trying to find paths to traditional media, I'm guessing. But it sounds like you always saw this as a thing of its own. Was that a conversation at the time, like, this is its own medium, its own. Its own set of rules?
- [03:40]
Scott Fisher
Exactly. So the, the general thought at the time was, how do we transition these Internet people into television? What I always saw was that their YouTube channel was more like their sitcom they were on. So you can be on the sitcom, you have your main thing you're doing every day, but then you can have a brand, you can go on tour, you can write a book. And that's kind of the same model that reality stars use. Sitcom stars, all the people that kind of have the thing that they're doing. I never saw it as, how do we just take someone off of YouTube? Because YouTube had all of the makings to be a main platform. It had monetization, it had the reach, it had everything you would want from television, and you were in control. So obviously there were some people that everyone's tried it. We did it with, with our clients on, on Hulu, and we transitioned them into tv. And it worked, but it wasn't. It's not the same formula for everybody. And obviously now, 15 years later, everyone knows that. But at the beginning of this all, it was a novel concept that we wouldn't want to go to tv.
- [04:38]
Mike Shields
I bet you that that control factor was probably underappreciated back then, where, where it's everything. Because back then it was like, get me Something guaranteed on a big company. But then you actually were, you became the company.
- [04:50]
Scott Fisher
Exactly. And the talent in digital come up on their own. They don't come up with gatekeepers or anyone really helping them for the most part. And they're in control of their success and their content. And for them to go into a situation where there's potentially hundreds of people involved making decisions, you know, potentially not making the right decisions, it notes all of that. It's a culture shock and a lot of the times it takes some of the secret sauce away from what made them successful in the first place.
- [05:20]
Mike Shields
Okay, so fast forward to today. You've grown, like you said, tremendously. You've got a big client, Ross, which I want to get into. But I guess you might think, okay, but there was a place for this. But now if you're a talent, you want to go to a big CAA or something or you might want to go to one of these, I don't know if you call them YouTube tech companies or intermediaries where you get like, you know, database or MCA and like capabilities. Why now? Why, why would talented brands work with you today over those kind of companies?
- [05:50]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, so we work with all of the agencies on a significant number of our clients. Just like in a traditional setting where they have a manager, an agent, they'll have a publicist, a business manager, a lawyer, like the whole team is still there, it's just working on different things. And then the tech tools, the influencer marketing platforms, we always say that all roads eventually lead back to the manager because we're the one that has the closest relationship with the client and their overall career and their strategy, the calls at midnight about the problem that's going on. So we have deal flow from all different influencer marketing companies, the tech platforms that are feeding deals into us and the agents. So it kind of just opens up new opportunities for creators. But at the end of the day, you need that one person that's a human that can give you good advice and look out for you and isn't just looking out for the deal and trying to maximize revenue. And for managers, if you're doing a good job, you're thinking five years out, 10 years out, and you're making decisions that support the longer term goals. And people at the end of the day need someone that's not going to BS them and not just going to tell them, you know, things just to make them happy. So that's ended up being kind of the, the approach where there's so many different people involved in the process. But the manager ends up being usually the one that has the last conversation with the client.
- [07:12]
Mike Shields
I wonder about this. And there's. There's a seemingly still a million paths to partnership in this sector because it's so fragmented and everyone's different. But do you think the manager ultimately becomes the keeper of ad sales and brand deals, or do you kind of farm that out to somebody like you dealing with big media agencies and buyers coming to you with partnerships? Or how does that look? What does that look like?
- [07:33]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, so we have a bunch of different ways we handle that, but at the company level. For select, since we are so large, we do have relationships with a lot of the top ad agencies and they want to just come to us, talk to us about our roster, do deals with us, streamline things through us. So they have one point of contact versus having to reach out to 50 creators for a campaign. So there's that aspect. And then for the individual creators, they want to tap into that infrastructure because if they just had a manager in house working for them, that person wouldn't have access to all of the knowledge and information that we have as a company. So we've taken the approach of consolidating and building systems and processes and structure so that whoever comes into select can tap into that versus when you're with a smaller manager, they're not getting that information. If you have someone in house, they're not getting that information. And then sometimes at a talent agency, they have thousands of clients versus hundreds of clients, so it's harder to give that level of attention. So we've kind of found that sweet spot of being big enough that we have the authority in the space to direct what's potentially going to happen and the information to act on without being too big that we. Everyone gets kind of lost in the sauce.
- [08:47]
Mike Shields
And give us some examples of who are some creators you're working with these days or have. Have in the past.
- [08:52]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, so we work with a lot of the top talent from the original YouTube days, like Gigi, Gorgeous, Tyler Oakley, Myla via Lord DIY. And a lot of those are my. My clients of my own that I've worked with for 10, 15 years. And then we have the kind of next gen of TikTok talent like Chris Olsen. We have Mindy McKnight who has heritage, a haircare brand that is doing significant sales at Walmart and other retailers. We have the cast of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Danielle Pik on our team happened to manage most of those women. And then we transitioned that into a concept for TV with Hulu. So we kind of have been playing in a lot of different areas, but it usually dials into the female lifestyle, fashion, beauty space is kind of just where it ended up mostly because 15 years ago, that's where the brands were spending and that's where the business was most active. So we just kind of followed that niche and helped clients in that world because it was very monetizable.
- [09:50]
Mike Shields
All right, I'll definitely. I'm going to come back to the Mormons show. Certainly a big one. But you mentioned, you know, this creators launching brands thing has been a big thing for several, several years. I guess a couple of questions is where are you seeing the most activity right now? Is it typically in lifestyle hair care? Maybe you could talk about Sarah Chung and her recent news. What's going on there right now?
- [10:13]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, so there was definitely a wave, you know, 2021 to 2023, where everyone thought they needed a brand. And that was kind of the strategy that everyone had come up with. We had actually launched the brands that have found major success with our clients pre 2020. So we had set those up between 2016 and 2019 because we saw that's where things were going and you were starting to see some of the early wins with celebrity founded brands. And we knew that creators would obviously become a part of that. So like you said, we set up set you. And that was based on Sarah's own use of certain products that then we found a partner and developed those. And then obviously it found a lot of success once it got into retail at Ulta, Amazon and then eventually TikTok Shop where it became like a hugely viral product. So it kind of took all those different strategies of D2C using a retailer and then also using social shopping. So it was a really interesting use case there. And then with Heritage, the haircare brand we have, it opened at all doors in Walmart and was a huge success and has now expanded into other retailers. But we've kind of leaned on not just going solely D2C because that was kind of the narrative in 2020, 2021, like abandoned retail, go full D2C. And that worked for six months until the cost of.
- [11:41]
Mike Shields
Which kind of mirrors that broader DTC category. Right. Whether it was an explosion of the Caspers and Warbury Parkers and then all that stuff got harder and probably too many at once.
- [11:50]
Scott Fisher
Exactly. And the, the cost to acquire customers got as expensive as being in retail. So it didn't even really, it wasn't even a better strategy than Retail and the customer loses the retail experience if the brand is only dtc. So from the beginning, we were always open to all of the different channels because we know from the creator space that they might be a digital creator, but they can have a thousand people show up to a mall for a meet and greet. Like, we always kind of understood the two sides of it all. So in terms of the future, it's kind of continuing into that retail first mindset. We typically won't launch a brand now unless there's already a retailer attached to it. Because to launch something D2C and try to get the audience to move to it if they don't have the backing of an established retailer, it's kind of just lost in the shuffle of all the other brands that are happening. But if you're launching a Target, Walmart, Ulta, wherever the retailer is, that makes sense. People are coming across it in their everyday life and they can easily access it versus having to buy something just on the dot com. So typically retail first is where we look. If a client wants to start a brand, we might test something dtc just to have proof of concept, make sure you can sell a thousand units, something very baseline. But if it's becoming a real business, retail is still a huge part of the strategy.
- [13:14]
Mike Shields
Interesting. It's just in terms of how many times we've said retail is dead, and it's certainly not. But I wonder, like I was going to ask you, are we, are we at a bubble with creators doing brands? It's probably going to depend on the category and everything, but I would imagine it gets naturally limited if you, if you're really going retailer first, there's only so many of those you can do. Imagine. What is that like right now?
- [13:34]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, I think the bubble burst a while ago for the creator brands, probably a year or two ago. It bursts just because there were so many. Everyone was trying everything and they didn't really have a unique reason of why they should be a brand founder. They just thought their career path was. I started social and then the logical next step is that I have to launch a brand. And the reality is you have to want to be a brand founder and you have to want that to be your main job. And a lot of creators have found that launching a brand isn't as easy as a lot of very consuming, I.
- [14:09]
Mike Shields
Would imagine, very consuming.
- [14:10]
Scott Fisher
And you have to be passionate about it because you're not going to make money for a while. And then you only start to make money once it hits that velocity and then you have to have the right deal that you're in to make it worth it to keep you going. Because a lot of these are just sweat equity deals. Some of them have royalties, some of them don't. So you have to have all the right factors to make it a success. And a lot of people realize it's just not worth the juice, isn't worth the squeeze that's for some of these. So it's kind of, I think we've reached peak creator brand and now the ones that are launching are the ones that really should be launching and they that have significant retail backing and the creators put in a lot of work. So I think we're getting better quality out of these brands now versus the past few years. It was kind of everyone had one and it was just kind of, the audience was getting tired of it as well.
- [14:56]
Mike Shields
So if you're a big marketer and if you haven't already done this, I mean certainly a lot of creators do this without their help. But if you're a Unilever, J.J. whatever. Should you try to co launch a brand with a creator? Is that a fool's errand at this point?
- [15:10]
Scott Fisher
I think a lot of those conglomerates are looking for the next growth area so they'll probably end up acquiring some of these creator brands once they hit that velocity of actually being a real solid, you know, significant business. So I think I see a lot of acquisitions of creator brands that they can fold in things like obviously the ordinary is not a creator brand, but them being acquired and folded into Estee Lauder is one of those kinds of things where you have the outsider that changed something and then you have the established player that's bringing them under the fold. So I think we'll see acquisitions of these creator brands and that's definitely the roadmap for a lot of them because you know, they want their exit opportunity. But I think they'll also use creators and continuing to get smarter about how they work with them. Whether instead of doing, you know, a one off sponsored video, they're doing capsule collections or they're doing a year long deal or they're having them curate something and just making it a little more custom versus like just making them in the face of the brand like a traditional celebrity deal, it's becoming a lot more like curated and using the creators specific skills in niche they're in to influence the products that they're developing and use them more in the process as consultants versus just as talent that they hire to be an endorser. Right.
- [16:26]
Mike Shields
Which is yeah, it's a big difference in historically how brands have worked with celebs. So. All right, let's go back to Mormon wives. I think my wife watched that all in, like one day at some one point. Tell us that story. That that's. It's got to be a unique one. But how does that come. Come about?
- [16:43]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, it was one of those kinds of things that just everything happened in the right way and our team acted on it in the right way because you can fall into something, but if you don't kind of take action, it doesn't end up becoming anything. So, like I said, Danielle Posotnik, one of our top managers, had happened to manage a group of the women that ended up being on the show. She said, there's a show here. My partner, Lisa and Georgia Berger on our team. Lisa Filipelli and Georgia Berger, they. They helped Danielle come up with the concept together. How do we package this in the right way? We brought on an amazing co producer in Jeff Jenkins Productions who had done Bling Empire and other great reality shows. So they knew the formula for reality tv. Our team knew the digital world and kind of how to cross people in between the two. And we came together, brought that show to Hulu, and it just kind of like hit the ground running. Like you said, a lot of people watched the first season in one day. And the interesting thing is that because there hasn't really been a true success up until this of digital crossover into reality tv, a lot of creators have tried doing like their own reality show, like their version of the Kardashians, but it just hasn't been done in the right way because it wasn't done from a digital native point of view. They were trying to, like we talked about, transition them from, let's put Lily.
- [18:03]
Mike Shields
Saying in a talk show, let's put Grace Helbig in a variety show or something like that. That wasn't. Instead of having it be very digital centric.
- [18:10]
Scott Fisher
Yeah. And like the way Secret Lives played out, where they actually talk about their tick tock on the show and they actually talk about their brand deals on the show. That would have never happened five or 10 years ago because it was all about, like, don't break the fourth wall and keep it focused on. You're on a TV show now. So we kind of understood that language and how to message things. And the cast of the show was just very open and honest and they were used to sharing their whole life on TikTok too. And I think TikTok is so much more unvarnished than even YouTube is because you're just recording, posting in the moment, every part of your life. So they were already in that mode of sharing that once they were in front of TV cameras, they just kept doing what was natural to them. And it. And it really worked. And the next season is coming soon and it's fantastic and, you know, like, groundbreaking for reality TV in the sense that it's extremely raw and entertaining because the whole cast, they just keep doing what they're doing. They don't have to.
- [19:08]
Mike Shields
You've got great characters. It's a very mysterious world. People like that. It just hits on so many levels. Okay, so what happened after that happens? Do you all of a sudden get a million calls like, okay, where's, where's the other version of this? Where what the streamers want this? If you, if you figured out how to make digital work on television, give me some more. Does that happen?
- [19:27]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, of course. That's just. Hollywood naturally follows the like the next thing. So my partner Lisa, Georgia and Danielle have been working on a lot of concepts and there's been, you know, great reaction to new ideas, things that, you know, are building on top of the success with Mormon Wives, but also totally new things because people have seen that we've actually been able to crack the code successfully. And for the cast, their careers have obviously skyrocketed because now we manage the majority of the cast on the show. All of the brands want to work with them and do deals with them, and we can help streamline across, you know, six different clients. So it's been really cool to see you build the show. They all have their own socials and then you have brand deals and then they can go on tour, they can do a million things. They can all start their own consumer product businesses. So it's been cool to kind of see the flywheel start spinning once it is all set up.
- [20:19]
Mike Shields
All right. Now that's like a pretty special example of a breakout on a streaming service. But the theoretically and anybody who's a popular YouTuber can get on TV now because YouTube is becoming such a. The so much of the consumption is happening on television.
- [20:32]
Sarah Chung
Has that changed the way you work.
- [20:34]
Mike Shields
Or your creators program work with brands? Is it as revolutionary as we make it out to be?
- [20:40]
Scott Fisher
I think YouTube becoming. I think now they're the one of the number one. I forget the stat, but there's some recent big stat that they're one of the largest viewerships for television consumption.
- [20:52]
Mike Shields
Netflix, yeah, it's pretty wild.
- [20:54]
Scott Fisher
Which is kind of inevitable to Me just because, you know, as a user and knowing this space, like people want to watch this content on a big screen and sit back and relax. They don't want to have to hover over their phone. So it's more of just a, you know, a natural side effect of what people want. But I think creators are starting to realize that YouTube is a place to create longer form content, create premium content. And the rise of TikTok actually helped make that more clear because TikTok was, is so short form, it's great, it's in the moment, but you're not able to necessarily stay there and watch something for 30 minutes. And YouTube, obviously people used to think of it as cap videos a minute long, short form, whatever that was. But now it's kind of evolved. Where YouTube is the long form platform, people are watching three hour podcasts on YouTube. It's, it is the new television and the monetization is obviously can always be improved and keep growing, but it's pretty solid, especially compared to other social platforms. So creators are starting to see YouTube as more of a place where they can build their long form strategy, they can build a really consistent audience. They're not as susceptible to the algorithm on YouTube because TikTok people don't really use the following feed. They mostly use the for you page feed. So you're kind of just only getting recommended what the algorithm decides versus on YouTube it opens to your subscriptions and.
- [22:20]
Mike Shields
You'Re seeing every Mr. Beast video or whatever. Dude, perfect. Like it's a little bit of different. Which is interesting because you have YouTube trying to emulate TikTok with shorts, but then TikTok trying to go longer. They're both trying to borrow tactics from one another, but you see that's a pretty clear distinction in terms of their, what their primary use case is going to be about.
- [22:37]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, I think YouTube has such a strength in long form content and a lot of people would think it's funny that YouTube is seen as long form now, but that's truly what it's become. And if they can keep working on shorts and improving it, they have a chance as well to have a short form win. And then TikTok obviously depending on what ends up happening, but it's looking more and more solid and clear. They're even moving into long form. Like you said, they're both kind of trading different things. TikTok's opening up the ability to have longer videos, so it's going to keep evolving. But YouTube I think is having like a renaissance and a comeback and people are. Creators are nostalgic about how YouTube used to be and how exciting it was and like how kind of useful as a platform it is. I mean, people might have taken it for granted for years and now they're kind of coming back to it and realizing that you can build a really solid business on YouTube.
- [23:28]
Mike Shields
All right, coming back to TikTok and like we. You mentioned how big TikTok shop is. It's just social commerce in general in the, in the US we're kind of waiting for this to be as big as it is in Asia. I don't know if it's there yet, but it's definitely having a moment.
- [23:40]
Sarah Chung
Is it business as usual for you with TikTok where it is?
- [23:44]
Mike Shields
And is somebody. Can somebody come along and fill that void if something happens? Who knows? But it seems like it's positive right now.
- [23:51]
Scott Fisher
Yeah, positive right now. You never know what could happen. We would love to see some of the other platforms step up in the way that TikTok did with live shopping and social shopping, because TikTok did figure it out because they followed what had worked in Asia, obviously. But it's still very early days with obviously YouTube and Instagram and they obviously need to catch up and figure it out. And TikTok is doing it. Well, it's kind of business as usual now because there's more certainty around it not going away overnight. But obviously in January it was very touch and go. It actually obviously shut down for 24 hours or whatever it was. So that changed. And brands have obviously changed their thinking on if they're doing TikTok only campaigns. The majority of campaigns now we're seeing are primarily Instagram and then they're adding TikTok as a supplement versus only thinking TikTok first because they had the experience where they had planned their whole quarter and then the whole plan got thrown off. So they, they need certainty obviously for them and creators are happy to be wherever the audience is. So whoever figures out the live shopping, the social shopping in addition to TikTok, they'll continue to migrate to the next place.
- [25:05]
Mike Shields
What about Pinterest? Do they have a shot there? I know it's a very. I know it can be a very different user base and different mix of influencers, but are you seeing your creators try and make that to a bigger social commerce play or really depends?
- [25:17]
Scott Fisher
Not really. Pinterest is kind of more of. They use it personally because they love the platform, but they haven't been able to find as much of the business case for it because A lot of what they could do on Pinterest they kind of are already doing on Instagram or they're using LTK to do parts of that. And Pinterest is such a niche specific type of content. Whereas Instagram has everything, TikTok has everything, YouTube has everything. Pinterest is more of that. Like DIY.
- [25:43]
Mike Shields
You're in a certain mode when you're on there.
- [25:45]
Scott Fisher
Exactly. Yeah.
- [25:46]
Mike Shields
What are some other things? And this is very hard to answer, but big trends, cool things. You're seeing interesting creator patterns at Branch. You maybe know about that. There may be. And if they're not, if they're only paying so much attention to space, what's going on that they should be keeping attention to. Yeah.
- [26:01]
Scott Fisher
So it's select. We have clients that are as small as 100,000 subscribers and larger than 10 million, obviously total following and above up to 20 million. And the sweet spot we've found for brands, what they're looking for, what they're coming to us for, and what clients are actually seeing a lot of success in, on the talent side is people that are between 500,000 followers and a million followers and they have a really specific niche. So there's a large number of creators that do cleaning content and all of their content is about cleaning. And they might have 500,000 subscribers, but they're making more money than someone that has 5 million subscribers who's been doing it for that's or homesteading, where you're on a farm and you're doing your, your content on the farm, you're making all your own food. And you wouldn't think that this person is making millions of dollars as an influencer, but they're doing that. Stay at home moms like all these different niches that people are starting to dive deep in. It's so much more effective to be an expert at something you do, even if it's cleaning, than it is to just be a general lifestyle influencer because they're kind of a dime a dozen. So we found that brands want the people that have a specific skill, a specific niche. Their audience is kind of built around it. A lot of the healthcare clients we have, nurses, doctors, dermatologists are huge. Again, they don't have the largest followings, but they're making more money sometimes than someone that has 10 million followers. So we're really diving deeper into the, the niches and we always, we joke that the riches are in the niches because if you laser focus on an audience, that audience can be very valuable to a brand. And they're willing to pay a premium to reach them.
- [27:38]
Mike Shields
That almost echoes like the emergence of cable way back when it put pressure on broadcast and those, you know, niche channels were really, really popping at the time.
- [27:46]
Scott Fisher
And it goes back to the emergence of podcasts in the change of media in general and the in the country where people are looking for individual voices that speak to them, not to like a big three broadcast network. So the whole idea that everything is shifting from the attention, going to three different places all the time, it's really about like hundreds of thousands of different creators, different outlets, different things going on, which is hard to keep track of.
- [28:10]
Mike Shields
Good for you, though, probably.
- [28:12]
Scott Fisher
It creates. Yeah, it creates more opportunity for individuals, too. Like, our favorite thing is seeing a mom that, you know, does cleaning content, provides for her kids and makes more money than she ever thought, or a teacher who is in class but doing the content on the side and making more money that she had ever dreamed of. And they're able to actually, like, help their families and give back to their community. So it ends up being really positive because you're kind of democratizing access to attention and then obviously access to monetizing it.
- [28:41]
Mike Shields
All right, well, very cool stuff, Scott. Thank you so, so much for your time here. Great conversation. Let's chat again.
- [28:46]
Scott Fisher
Of course. Thank you.
- [28:47]
Sarah Chung
Thanks again to my guest this week.
- [28:49]
Mike Shields
Select Management group, Scott Fiser and my.
- [28:51]
Sarah Chung
Partners at View Planner.
- [28:52]
Mike Shields
You like this week's episode, please take.
- [28:54]
Sarah Chung
A moment to rate and leave a review.
- [28:55]
Mike Shields
We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button.
- [28:58]
Sarah Chung
We'll see you next time for more.
- [28:59]
Mike Shields
On what's next in media. Thanks for listening.