Emily and Mike talk about the ad world's new obsession with models, and whether brands are too trusting of AI ad buying

Summary

Next in Media – Detailed Summary

Title: Emily and Mike talk about the ad world's new obsession with models, and whether brands are too trusting of AI ad buying
Host: Mike Shields
Guest: Emily Riley, Consultant Analyst to the Ad Tech Universe
Release Date: June 2, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Mike Shields welcomes Emily Riley, a seasoned consultant in the ad tech realm, to discuss the evolving landscape of media, marketing, and advertising. Their conversation delves deep into the resurgence of Marketing Mix Models (MMMs), the increasing reliance on AI in ad buying, and the broader implications of these trends on brands and media companies.

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2. The Resurgence of Marketing Mix Models (MMM)

Discussion Points:

• MMMs' Comeback: The conversation highlights a recent piece in Ad Exchanger about James and James, a furniture brand, utilizing AI-driven tools from platforms like Meta and Google. Their MMM revealed that these platforms weren't aligning with their specific goals.

• Historical Context: Emily reminisces about the era when only major players like Procter & Gamble could afford MMMs due to their high costs and extensive data requirements.

• Accessibility Through AI: She mentions her involvement with a company leveraging agentic AI to make MMMs more affordable and accessible for smaller businesses.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Shields [02:49]: “When you say like that was on a very high level, like we're 50% TV, not like optimizing, you know, channels and programs and stuff.”

• Emily Riley [03:08]: “With an MMM, if nothing else, what it's telling you is like, this channel is driving more lift for you today.”

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3. The Role of AI in Ad Buying and Measurement

Discussion Points:

• AI Optimizers: Emily discusses how large platforms use AI optimizers that might not prioritize individual brand goals, leading to potential mismatches in ad performance.

• Incrementality Testing: The duo explores the importance of understanding whether conversions are incremental or would have occurred organically, emphasizing that MMMs alone might not provide this clarity.

• Probabilistic vs. Deterministic Data: They debate Eric Seifert's perspective that AI’s probabilistic data might overshadow the need for precise identity-based data in future advertising strategies.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily Riley [06:58]: “With AI, you're not paying $1 million every time you want to do that, you just turn it on.”

• Mike Shields [09:15]: “Temporal identities are not going to matter that much in the future because AI is going to take over so much of this stuff.”

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4. Shifts in Media Consumption: Streaming Challenges

Discussion Points:

• Streaming Frustrations: Mike voices his dissatisfaction with current streaming experiences, particularly with sports broadcasts on platforms like YouTube TV, citing issues like random cutouts and intrusive pre-roll ads.

• Shoppable Ads During Sports: Emily shares her discomfort with shoppable ads interrupting live sports, highlighting a misalignment between the viewer’s experience and advertiser intentions.

• Technological Hurdles: They discuss the challenges faced by streaming platforms in delivering seamless experiences, especially during high-stakes events like NBA playoffs.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Shields [13:00]: “During one of the Nick games, I was watching that a shoppable ad came on and I'm like, I'm on the edge of my seat freaking out, shaking, and I'm like, you want to go shopping?”

• Emily Riley [14:14]: “What's funny though is like the money maker for these guys is live sports. And like, you're so right. People are like, can you just get out of my way?”

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5. Impact of Technology on Media Companies and Content Distribution

Discussion Points:

• Media Layoffs: Mike expresses concern over significant layoffs at Business Insider, attributing it to factors like AI advancements and reduced distribution channels.

• Changing News Consumption: Emily emphasizes the shift from long-form articles to platforms like YouTube and TikTok, driven by younger audiences who prefer influencer-driven content.

• Content Diversification: Both agree that media companies must innovate and diversify their content delivery methods to stay relevant in the evolving digital landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Shields [15:00]: “It makes me very nervous. And I, I actually happen to listen to Neil Vogel on Brian Morrissey's podcast.”

• Emily Riley [16:36]: “Reporters need to change the way that they give news to people. You know, I mean, you look at younger generations, they go on YouTube and they go on TikTok and it's influencers that give them their news.”

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6. The Future of Content and News Consumption

Discussion Points:

• Decline in Reading: Both Mike and Emily express concerns over the declining trend in traditional reading habits, pondering the implications for informed citizenship and the quality of information dissemination.

• Video as the New Medium: They explore how video content, especially short-form formats, is becoming dominant and the necessity for journalists and content creators to adapt accordingly.

• LinkedIn's Role: Emily highlights LinkedIn as a platform where authoritative and well-researched content thrives, contrasting it with more casual platforms like Instagram.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily Riley [17:44]: “Amount of information to you. It you're better informed as a citizen if that's happening.”

• Mike Shields [19:14]: “And it depends on who's surfacing in your feed, who you follow, if you're willing to read the longer posts.”

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7. Conclusion

Mike and Emily conclude their discussion by acknowledging the rapid changes in the media and advertising industries driven by technology and data. They emphasize the need for adaptability, whether it's through embracing AI-driven tools for measurement or innovating content delivery methods to cater to evolving audience preferences. The conversation underscores a fundamental theme: as technology continues to reshape the landscape, stakeholders must remain vigilant and strategic to navigate the complexities and harness the opportunities presented.

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Key Takeaways:

• MMM Accessibility: AI is democratizing Marketing Mix Models, making them accessible to smaller businesses previously unable to afford them.

• AI's Double-Edged Sword: While AI optimizers can enhance efficiency, they may also lead to misalignment with specific brand goals and reduce transparency in ad performance.

• Evolving Media Consumption: The shift towards short-form video content challenges traditional media companies to innovate and adapt to maintain relevance and engage younger audiences.

• Content Diversification is Crucial: To thrive in the current landscape, media and advertising entities must diversify their content strategies, leveraging platforms like LinkedIn for authoritative content while experimenting with interactive and shoppable ads.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• Mike Shields [02:49]: “When you say like that was on a very high level, like we're 50% TV, not like optimizing, you know, channels and programs and stuff.”

• Emily Riley [03:08]: “With an MMM, if nothing else, what it's telling you is like, this channel is driving more lift for you today.”

• Emily Riley [06:58]: “With AI, you're not paying $1 million every time you want to do that, you just turn it on.”

• Mike Shields [09:15]: “Temporal identities are not going to matter that much in the future because AI is going to take over so much of this stuff.”

• Mike Shields [13:00]: “During one of the Nick games, I was watching that a shoppable ad came on and I'm like, I'm on the edge of my seat freaking out, shaking, and I'm like, you want to go shopping?”

• Emily Riley [14:14]: “What's funny though is like the money maker for these guys is live sports. And like, you're so right. People are like, can you just get out of my way?”

• Mike Shields [15:00]: “It makes me very nervous. And I, I actually happen to listen to Neil Vogel on Brian Morrissey's podcast.”

• Emily Riley [16:36]: “Reporters need to change the way that they give news to people. You know, I mean, you look at younger generations, they go on YouTube and they go on TikTok and it's influencers that give them their news.”

• Emily Riley [17:44]: “Amount of information to you. It you're better informed as a citizen if that's happening.”

• Mike Shields [19:14]: “And it depends on who's surfacing in your feed, who you follow, if you're willing to read the longer posts.”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussion between Mike Shields and Emily Riley, offering valuable insights into the current and future state of media, marketing, and advertising in an AI-driven world.

Transcript

[Mike Shields]

Collaboration is a new competition. The One Audience alliance by Elemental TV unites premium publishers to tackle CTV's biggest challenge, fragmentation. By collaborating over AI powered audience insights and inventory, we're creating an ecosystem where advertisers win, publishers thrive and audiences stay engaged. Join The Movement Redefining CTV at elementaltv.com OneAudienceAlliance that's E L E M E N T A-L-TV.com OneAud I E N C E A L L I A N C E hi everyone. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields here with my regular guest of late, Emily Riley, consultant analyst to the ad tech universe. How you doing, Emily? Good to see you.

[Emily Riley]

Good to see you too, Mike. I want you to start saying that I'm a consultant to the adtech stars.

[Mike Shields]

Stars, yeah. I don't even want to limit you to ad tech. You're consultant to this whole business. Second Data Stars, Media Advertising, everything we missed each other last week for Memorial Day, stuff to catch up on. I'm going to dive like deep into the weeds here to start us off. We've been talking about this a little bit but because this has come up a lot, this like rise of mmms again. I actually did a panel this past week at the lead Summit which I didn't know was the thing, but it is an event and I'll come back to that because one of one of the brands was very bought in but there was, I don't know if you saw, there was a really interesting piece this week in Ad Exchanger. There was a furniture brand I didn't really know a lot about James and James, which is probably well known if you care about those things, that the gist of it was they were using a lot of these AI driven tools by the big platforms Meta and Google that everyone seems to be okay with and they're spending a lot with and they, they found that their MMM was telling them that those things were not doing a good enough job or not doing right by them. Which I thought, you know, again, it's one brand, one story. But I was like, that's pretty revealing. And there's, they're pretty smart because everyone has seemingly bought into this. There's so many brands have bought into this idea that you're going to be okay with handing over your goals and your budgets to the big platforms and they'll figure it out and it'll work, so who cares? And they were kind of finding like, no, it wasn't prioritizing our goals. Right. I thought that struck me because there's such a wide array of opinions on this MMM comeback.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, there are so many opinions. It's so layered. It's like, you know, you go back to, I think where digital started and it was bifurcated. You had like the P and G where, and I used to work with them on Hawkeye. They would take an MMM across everything. So this is back when TV was totally linear. Radio, magazines, once a year they would do this super expensive. They would spend like over a million dollars on this one. MMM outcome that would determine their media placement for the entire next budget season.

[Mike Shields]

When you say like that was on a very high level, like we're 50% TV, not like optimizing, you know, channels and programs and stuff.

[Emily Riley]

But just like imagine like, because of their billion dollar budget, even like a 2% shift is tons.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, huge. So the model said to. Yeah. Move a couple of needle points to the needle. That was a big deal.

[Emily Riley]

A big deal. So back then no one could afford an mmm? No, like only the very biggest. And part of it was just you need a lot of data for it to be sticky.

[Mike Shields]

Right. So you gotta spend a lot of money, you gotta have a lot of data.

[Emily Riley]

And then everybody else we know that we would laugh at was like, well, I got this many impressions and I guess this many clicks and slowly, slowly over time, you know, you have the big dogs trying to get away from having to wait a year to get the word of God. And you have these smaller companies that obviously can't do what P and G is doing, trying to get away from clicks and impressions and they're getting closer to each other and MMMs today are cheaper. I actually am working with a company in stealth mode that is using agentic AI to make it a lot easier to do this kind of measurement. But the big thing is you need the data, you know. So you were just talking about going to leads con. Like, you know, if I were a retailer, I wish I was in the leads business because that means you have.

[Mike Shields]

Something measurable, something to use to put in this thing to help tell you what to do.

[Emily Riley]

Exactly. Like if you're a brand marketer and you've, you've got all these retail RMN partners, for example, are you like, do you believe their info? Like they're the ones selling on your behalf.

[Mike Shields]

It's, it's more black boxy that we used to complain about ad tech being black boxy. This is even more so.

[Emily Riley]

It is like, so if you're like the dream and the reason why like D2C brands were so hot for so long is that all traditional retailers are just super jealous. They were online only. Everything was closed loop measurement. They could tell exactly which channel was working best. So they were the ones that quickly realized social was awesome because they didn't have any legacy crap that they had to deal with.

[Mike Shields]

They were like, then I try to protect store sales and I try to get legacy. Just go with what's working now and adjust and go fast.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, exactly. I mean so now what you've got, I think with AI coming on board is you don't want to follow the shiny object of AI just because it feels fast and it says stuff confidently. You know, like to your point, Meta and Google, they have these AI optimizers. If I'm a tiny advertiser and I'm probably only advertising on two or three digital platforms anyway, like what do I have to lose?

[Mike Shields]

If it's driving the KPI you care about and you don't really understand it, I guess that's okay for a lot of those brands.

[Emily Riley]

Exactly. And they really don't have much else to go on. You know that they're probably not super sophisticated with measurement and they're pretty small. As soon as you're big enough to have an agency, you're probably complex enough where just completely handing over the keys to a Meta or to a Google, you're asking for trouble. And that's, I think that's.

[Mike Shields]

And you also look like you don't do anything if you're the agency. Like you what I mean I've heard them say that like you can't look like you don't know what you're doing or understand how the media plan works.

[Emily Riley]

But you know there's, there's the double edged sword there. Right. Because you could imagine somebody on the media team saying okay look, I've been the one over the last five months say James and James, this ad exchange article. Oh yeah, we're getting a lot of great leads and then the brand is the one saying okay, you're actually sending me leads that aren't converting. I don't like this.

[Mike Shields]

Or there were leads I was going to, I was going to get anyway. There's that question a hundred percent and Right.

[Emily Riley]

Which is, and it's interesting that you put that, that out there because incrementality answers that question. Would I have gotten these conversions regardless? Am I wasting my budget on people that would just go by because of organic search or you know, pick some other thing? That's where MMMs are a little like one note they're not going to tell you that. So one of the things that's cool about AI is like, you can do all of them affordably. You can do an mmm, say once a quarter. You can do spot testing for incrementality. So like, all right, Texas, I'm going to do this. California, I'm going to do something different. I'm going to see which one pops. That's my answer of if you know this is incremental lift or if it would have happened anyway. And all of a sudden with AI, you're not paying $1 million. Every time you want to do that, you just turn it on.

[Mike Shields]

It was interesting because I mentioned I did this panel earlier this week. The advertiser was, hey, dude. Which is a. I didn't know this. There are. They're a popular shoe brand that a Crocs bought them a couple of years ago. They were born on social, very analytics driven. They were all in on MMMs. They were like, that guides so much of our decision making. The week before, I was at a beat event for the post upfront conversation and that crowd was like big advertisers and buyers. Not old school, but like, this was like traditional spending. And there was like an undercurrent of I don't like these mmms. They make this too blunt. They don't. They. This is not how the business should really operate. There was like a weird, I don't want to say tension, but there's like a. I'm not sure if we should go all the way in this. In this direction kind of feel.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, well, you have your macro dials and your micro dials. And so, you know, with an mmm, if nothing else, what it's telling you is like, this channel is driving more lift for you today. Now, if you just blindly are like, sweet, let me put all of my money into this channel. Well, what about incrementality? What about when it become like, maybe frequency becomes too high and you start seeing, you know, erosion of performance over time. There's always another model that needs to come into play to make sure that.

[Mike Shields]

It'S not that simple.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, like, AI doesn't mean set it and forget it. It means you can do more faster, but that just often means that you have to look even harder because now it's like the smarter you get, the more you have to like, stop filling up.

[Mike Shields]

Okay. Another interesting counterpoint, sort of. I don't know if you saw this on I'm staying really deep in the weeds, but Eric Seifert, Siffert I always pronounce his name wrong. He's a like mobile advertising guru. He's a really great newsletter. His point of view I think is probably skewed because he is a little bit mobile centric and those brands are very obviously data driven and all about installs and stuff. But he was, he had this post basically talking about digital advertising. If I'm summing it up, we talk so much about we gotta have this like future identity post, cookie privacy world. He was like, identities are not going to matter that much in the future because AI is going to take over so much of this stuff. And AI is using probabilistic data ironically. So like the smartest, most powerful tech companies in the world, they're like, wouldn't even need that data again. That's might not be for every advertiser. But I thought that was interesting how much we talk about this need to have this precision that might not be necessary.

[Emily Riley]

Again the answer always as an old analyst is it depends.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, it's complicated.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah. Like probabilistic measurement helps with, you know, forecasting and optimization. When you don't have real time data, it helps with like targeting a broader audience, like with reach, you know, because you're not going to know. You're like Deterministic data is by its very nature limited. You just don't know everybody.

[Mike Shields]

It's finite, the Internet.

[Emily Riley]

So you know, deterministic data is ideal for closed loop. And any company that gets close to closed loop in any way, they want to stick to deterministic because it also helps with their marketing measurement. So advertising is like the tip of the spear. Marketing is once they hit your site, once they hit your app, once you're engaged with them, if you're not doing something deterministic like what are you doing? Like first data is everything in marketing.

[Mike Shields]

So especially for retailers online, you don't know your customer.

[Emily Riley]

That's kind of right, like, so it's not like deterministic is going to go away, but using it as like a tool like these large scale media buys on these huge platforms sort of automatically already have probabilistic built in. That's where the problem happens because it's like you're just bumping up against a completely different model. And so that, that is something that needs to be decided because you can't do both at the same time.

[Mike Shields]

All right, let's get out of this Weedville for a little bit. There's a bunch of ways we can go, but I'm, I'm actually we're, we're recording this. I don't know if. If the Knicks are going to be alive when this episode comes out. But I. I've obviously been. I've been obsessed with this series is the NBA playoffs in general. It's.

[Emily Riley]

Ben was actually at the game last night.

[Mike Shields]

Wow. Okay. I hate your husband.

[Emily Riley]

Laughter like he went outside of MSG and like the whole.

[Mike Shields]

It was insane. I'm sure that on a macro level, ABC would love the Knicks to make it. No offense to Indiana and Oklahoma City, but that's not. Those are not just not the biggest markets or names with the sports streaming experience. It's funny because I've been. I find should be the better than ever. And I find it very frustrating maybe. And this is. Again, it's. This might be just my TV, my Wi Fi, my setup. We recently switched to YouTube TV and I'm using Gotham Sports for the local teams rather than cable. It's demonstrably worse. Like, I know that sounds crazy, but like, you cannot flip around anymore. It cuts out randomly at times. I wanted to go from a Nick game to watch Juan Soto at bat and then Matt Yankee's thing. And like, I had to watch a pre roll, which is insane. It just made me think there's such an emphasis on sports rights is with the upfronts and the streamers are all getting. And I. I don't know if there's an answer, but this was just maybe. Maybe this is a frustration for me, but it is not as good as it should be.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah. I mean, we always want what we imagine. You can imagine your perfect streaming experience and you don't have it. So it's annoying. Like, when we started in this business, it was dial up at work. Wanted to launch like a website. You're talking like months now. It's like you make a website in your sleep.

[Mike Shields]

If you could get like a terrible stream of March Madness at work, it was like incredible. It's true.

[Emily Riley]

Magical.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah. So part of it is just as soon as you can imagine it, you want it to be perfect. And these poor fast channels and all of these apps.

[Mike Shields]

Poor fast channels.

[Emily Riley]

You know, like, I feel bad for these guys. It's like, literally they have to be perfect the minute they stand this thing up.

[Mike Shields]

Right. Or otherwise. Like, this is crap. Yeah. What the hell is going on here?

[Emily Riley]

The stuff that we miss. Like, you used to have a local sports announcer that you, like, recognized all the commercials would be local and regional. Knew that that was cheesy.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah.

[Emily Riley]

But it was like confidence building. You're like, I know what channel to dial into. I know what time who I'm going to be listening to. All the commercials are like, there are commercial breaks pre planned, preset. Nothing is weird, nothing loads wrong done. Now it's like, meanwhile, you might have been adjusting your antenna on top of your teeth.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

[Emily Riley]

You know what I mean? And now it's like you might get really good picture quality and it's super cheap, but it's like, okay, the commercial breaks make no sense. And the. The announcer didn't come on. There's no sound with.

[Mike Shields]

And where is the Yankee game, by the way? I can't. I have to figure out three or.

[Emily Riley]

Four different places and friends just to find out what, you know, what app they downloaded to get access to it. Yeah. And then you have to buy the pass and then you forget your password and it, you know, and half, half the game's already over by the time you get there. So like, this is just the nature of technology, which is like, it always sucks even as it gets better.

[Mike Shields]

During one of the Nick games, I was watching the. That a shoppable ad came on and I'm like, I'm on. I'm like going to throw up half the time during these games. I'm on the edge of my seat freaking out, shaking, and I'm like, you.

[Emily Riley]

Want to go shopping?

[Mike Shields]

Are you kidding me? Like, the get at go away. Like whatever this brand is. And I know that's not a normal use, but I'm like, there, there's probably a time in the. And a place for those things and that people think, oh, the engagement in sports is so powerful. But it's like, no, such.

[Emily Riley]

Such, such a good point. So I'm. It's really funny you say that because I'm actually talking right now with a company about they have a moments technology which uses the context of the show to put in like a shoppable ad at the exact right time. Perfect example would be show like your friends and neighbors. There's this.

[Mike Shields]

I've heard it's good. I've not seen it yet.

[Emily Riley]

Swag. It's like watches and cars and wine and vacations. Obviously you're in shopping mode mentally when you're like, I want her dress, I want that awesome, you know, car, whatever. But yeah, like, what's funny though is like the money maker for these guys is live sports. And like, you're so right. People are like, can you just get out of my way? Like, I don't want to shop right now. I want to watch sports.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, maybe if I'm watching something I just totally don't care about the teams or something. Maybe. But it's not the right mindset. At least seemingly. I know some companies like World are trying to target by emotion in streaming. I'll be interested to see if that gets you traction.

[Emily Riley]

That can be brand advertising like sports for forever it was brand advertisers and brand advertising still has a place. Just because you can interact doesn't mean you always should.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah.

[Emily Riley]

Want to.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. Sometimes you just want to have see a funny Budweiser ad or whatever. I want to ask you. This is a, a total left turn but the, this bummed me out personally because I worked at Business Insider years ago. You know, media companies been having layoffs for a long time now, but they got 21% hit which really was eye opening and I worried about it being a sign of the times.

[Emily Riley]

So in the last.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. Did smaller published. Yeah, they got hit. Know it's hard to to know is this the economy? It felt like bi was a little bit like this is an existential change because of AI and Google and just losing distribution. I'm trying to read between the lines, but it makes me very nervous. And, and I, I actually happen to listen to Neil Vogel on Brian Morrissey's podcast. He's the. He runs I and Dot dash. I mean talking about how like they have no idea what's going to happen with Google traffic. And it just made me, geez, I know things are, I know we know these things are coming but this is kind of scary.

[Emily Riley]

It's scary. It's a bummer. And some of it has to do with just the change in the way that people get their information. Like they're not reading long format articles the way that they used to. And so if that's the case, you just. Reporters need to change the way that they give news to people. You know, I mean you look at younger generations, they go on YouTube and they go on TikTok and it's influencers that give them their news. It's a completely different approach. So we can go ahead and say, oh, AI is going to be writing news articles. It's like I don't think as many people in general are going to be writing news articles.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, I mean there's a real worry about reading in general, which is reading.

[Emily Riley]

Is on the decline. It's like is the winner. You know, I'm in the business of content, you're in the business of content. But you know, you have to diversify essentially. And I think Some of these companies do a better job than others of moving out of that like old school news article format.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. For a while. The great. The. And I was, I was sort of resistant to this at the time when, when Axios launched they were like, no, we're going to do a lot of bullets and pithy and nothing long because we're in a. For a mobile world. And now I find myself writing that way. And a lot of publications have to. Neil Vogel was talking about how he's. And this is not. Wasn't really about news, it was about other kinds of content. You almost have to do like Instagram stories version of content. And I wonder if a lot of journalists are gonna have to figure out how to do that while still communicating a lot of information without having, you know, the 700 word article. And that's, I don't know, this is like very probably too personal for someone like me. But that is. I wonder how that's gonna play out.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah. And what's really weird is that it's not good for the audience. You want somebody that's being paid to.

[Mike Shields]

Investigate and whether they know it or not. Yeah.

[Emily Riley]

Amount of information to you. It you're better informed as a citizen if that's happening. You know, if you're just relying on a 30 second quick take because this person is somebody you follow, it doesn't give you enough facts to feel confident. My, you know, like my kids are in high school and they come home and say stuff where you're like, where did you get that?

[Mike Shields]

Yes, this happens to me all the time.

[Emily Riley]

Hearsay.

[Mike Shields]

And they're. And they speak with total authority as if they read it in like the Financial Times and it's like. And yeah, it'll be stupid things like I heard this guy is out for the year. Or my, my son told me that Chipotle was shutting down recently and I'm like, wait, what? And it was like some crazy TikTok rumor thing. I'm like, that's what we're going to hold like old man conversation about, you know.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, but it's not necessarily that only it's also, you know, when, when you're talking about video being the new medium. Media companies can still have a really important place if they, if they crack that, if they figure out how to do really smart YouTube TikTok really, really well for this younger generation. You know, that's the way news has to go.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. You're even seeing that with a lot of news. Consumption has shifted to LinkedIn the last couple years, especially probably in our industry. And they've been doing video for a while, but now they're really pushing almost like their version of a TikTok or like the short pithy video thing. And I wonder, are like, are you seeing that with even the clients you work with wanting to do things like that more?

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, So I think LinkedIn right now is two things. One, definitely a big lead generation tool for sales in our industry, like top tier networking. You see somebody that you want to connect to and you don't have their email address, that kind of thing. The one that's more interesting for this conversation is how much of your news do you get there? You know, and it depends on who's surfacing in your feed, who you follow, if you're willing to read the longer posts, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so one of the things that I've been doing more of is like authoritative, more researched content for LinkedIn. It used like, here's a cute picture of us at Cannes. Click here if you want. You know, now it's much more like a reaction to a news event with data in it, you know, because people are, they're stopping and reading more, you know, like one of the best, I think is my awesome, amazing old boss Zia Shout out Emarketer. She does such a good job with that because it's visual and deep.

[Mike Shields]

So you can, so there, there is real, there's quality. It's not just like a hey, you're doing I'm so congratulations on your birthday or whatever like that. It's, there's, there's a lot to it.

[Emily Riley]

Every post remark. And she does like behind the chart, right, because everyone knows what a red bar E marketer chart looks like. Well, an Amazon are at the top again. But you know, it's like, here's why it looks this way, here's what we think is happening next and you're just like drawn in, you know, that's what LinkedIn's really good for. Cause it's like, okay, I know this is gonna be relevant to my job. It's like work related so I can spend a minute on it, you know, not like guilty being caught on Instagram.

[Mike Shields]

You're, you're, yeah, you're bettering yourself theoretically for.

[Emily Riley]

Yeah, so you have the right mindset, you know, it's good.

[Mike Shields]

All right, I think that's it this week. Lots more coming up soon. We got can in a few weeks. Let's keep the conversation going with great stuff. Emle.

[Emily Riley]

Thanks man.

[Mike Shields]

See ya.

[Emily Riley]

See ya.