How Smosh Endured Numerous Pitfalls Before Becoming a 70-Person Media Powerhouse

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Next in Media – Alessandra Catanese on Transforming Smosh

Host: Mike Shields
Guest: Alessandra Catanese, CEO of Smosh
Episode Date: January 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Next in Media dives into how Alessandra Catanese transformed Smosh, a longstanding YouTube comedy brand, into a modern, 70-person media powerhouse. The discussion covers Smosh’s evolution from its early days on YouTube to its current multifaceted business, producing a slate of accessible comedic content and generating revenue through diverse channels. Catanese offers deep insights into creator-led businesses, the convergence of digital and traditional media, and the future of video monetization and brand partnerships.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Smosh’s Evolution: From Youtube’s Early Days to Media Company

[01:03 - 05:36]

• Origins and Resilience:
  Mike Shields expresses surprise at Smosh’s longevity given its many transitions since YouTube’s infancy.
  • "If you asked me in 2025, would they still be around...I would have been like, I don’t know. Not because the content wasn’t great and...they went through so many changes." ([01:03] – Mike Shields)
• Business Mindset Shift:
  Catanese, once Anthony Padilla’s talent manager, realized over time that creators function as businesses regardless of scale.
  • "Any creator at any size is a full-scale business...When I was talent managing, the creator was the CEO...when Ian and Anthony and I sat down together to talk about Smosh, we were creating the vision together." ([01:25], [04:12] – Alessandra Catanese)
• Leadership Philosophy:
  Even as CEO, Catanese stresses shared vision and succession planning for Smosh’s founders.
  • "Them putting me as CEO didn’t...mean I run the company...They’re still owners and visionaries."
  • "You’re going to want to retire...let’s figure out where you want to remain on camera, and where you need to take a step back." ([05:10] – Alessandra Catanese)

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2. What Smosh Looks Like Today: Channels, Cast, and Content

[05:50 - 09:21]

• Multichannel Network:
  Smosh now operates five active YouTube channels, supporting social media, and a 15-person cast (along with ongoing cast expansion).
  • "We have five active YouTube channels...a cast of 15, including Anthony and Ian...we have a full-fledged merch business now."
• Merch Personalization:
  Merchandise lines are expanding to individual cast members and fans can access Smosh without deep lore.
  • "Each cast member has...plans to launch more merchandising that is...their own line...We’re making sure that content, merch...you don’t have to know the history in order to get it or to like it."

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3. Content Accessible for All

• Format Innovation:
  Shows like "Do You Know Your Duo?" and "Culinary Crimes" are designed to be accessible for newcomers.
  • "Anybody can watch that. You don’t have to know who Courtney is, you don’t have to know who Shane is..."
• Forthcoming Parody Show:
  “Smosh Hospital” (Grey’s Anatomy spoof) channels SNL’s improv with unique twists for the CTV (connected TV) experience.
  • "Imagine watching SNL, but every time a character breaks, a different cast member has to replace them." ([09:24] – Alessandra Catanese)
  • "It’s lively, exciting...shows off the best of improv...there’s some scripted to have a plotline, but for the most part, I have no idea what’s gonna happen in this show." ([09:53] – Alessandra Catanese)

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4. Optimizing for the YouTube CTV/Living Room Era

[10:22 - 14:40]

• Production Investment:
  Smosh now routinely invests in 4K and higher production quality with TV screens in mind.
  • "For the last year and a half, we’ve been investing in 4K...It’s very expensive...but expanding your server is even more expensive."
• Designing for the Living Room:
  There’s a conscious effort to make content TV-friendly, like with Summer Games, which incorporated 4K and reality TV conventions.
• Shifting Platforms and Discovery:
  Catanese predicts YouTube will increasingly differentiate “TV” content from search-indexed creator fare.
  • "I think in the future...content like ours is no longer on the search engine side, dumped in with everything else, but actually highlighted…as a TV service." ([13:30] – Alessandra Catanese)

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5. The Business Side: Lessons from MCNs and Direct Sales

[15:25 - 20:59]

• MCN (Multi-Channel Network) Legacy:
  Owning your own CMS (content management system) is now seen as crucial for independence and accountability, learning from MCN boom and bust cycles.
  • "The thing I’ve learned that’s helped me at SMOSH is the value of maintaining and owning your own CMS...also owning the sales and that process is so much power."
• Collaboration over Competition:
  The collaborative spirit of the original MCNs lives on—community and network-building still matter.
  • "We don’t have competition. We have collaborators...collaboration at the heart...and lean away from this us versus them conflict mentality, the better everybody’s going to do." ([21:01] – Catanese)
  • "Rising tides raise all ships." ([22:33] – Catanese)

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6. Creator Monetization and Brand Partnerships

[22:34 - 30:23]

• Evolving Brand Integrations:
  Catanese describes how brands sometimes still fail to understand authentic creator integrations, insisting on intrusive scripts or formats.
  • "We have to sincerely represent [brands]. If we don’t have a sincere read...we’re not going to sell them something we don’t sincerely use..." ([24:30] – Catanese)
  • "Brands need to start getting smarter...they come through saying, we want to work with you, but we...don’t give a shit about the way...you would create this content yourself."
• The Value of Data and Audience Feedback:
  YouTube integrations outperform TV in speed and quality of feedback.
  • "You can turn to a platform like YouTube and work with a partner like us...and you can get our metrics...immediately we see comments of people being like, I'm down with this." ([27:40] – Catanese)
• Brand Professionalization Lag:
  Some challenger brands are more open, but many still treat creator deals as if they’re unstructured bedroom projects, not serious productions.
  • "Oftentimes we get brands who are like...let’s kick it to next week...we weren’t able to get Legal to approve in time. We’re like, hey, that’s not how it works for us." ([29:15] – Catanese)
  • "They’re behind on the professionalization thing...even though they think they’re getting it." ([30:23] – Shields)

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Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments

• On creator business acumen:
  "Today’s version of Smosh is...not just a media and production company. I also think about us as a brand." ([02:50] – Catanese)
• On balancing legacy and fresh talent:
  "They’re today’s version of the company, and they’re the future...you’re going to want to retire...Let’s figure out where you want to remain on camera and...take a step back." ([05:07] – Catanese)
• On collaboration in the industry:
  "We don’t have competition, we have collaborators. My social team gets lunch with Mythical’s social team. My production manager gets coffee with Dropouts’ production manager." ([21:01] – Catanese)
• On content accessibility:
  "We’re performers who are really great at improv and comedy...there’s something accessible for everybody." ([07:50] – Catanese)
• On the blending of digital and traditional media:
  "There is no such thing as traditional or digital anymore. The more we embrace collaboration...the better everybody’s going to do." ([21:21] – Catanese)
• On brand partnership pitfalls:
  "I think like brands need to start getting smarter...we would never make a video with like this kind of language or...doing it your way. You kind of don’t get us right now."
• Mike Shields, on industry change:
  "You wouldn’t do that to Fox or NBC or whatever...Like, this is a new company."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:03] – Smosh’s evolution and Alessandra’s path to CEO
• [06:22] – Breakdown of current Smosh channels and business
• [09:24] – “Smosh Hospital” format and content philosophy
• [10:47] – Investing in TV-quality YouTube production
• [13:08] – Predictions for YouTube’s TV interface and discovery
• [16:04] – Lessons from the MCN era and the importance of an owned CMS
• [21:01] – Industry mindset shift to collaboration over competition
• [23:14] – Brand integration strategies and issues with legacy advertising mindsets
• [27:40] – Real-time data advantages of creator platforms
• [29:15] – Why brands struggle to understand creator professionalism

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Tone and Language

The conversation is forthright, occasionally irreverent, and detailed. Both Shields and Catanese speak candidly and with humor about the operational realities of digital media and the innovator’s mindset required to thrive. Catanese, in particular, balances enthusiasm about creator opportunity with tough love for slow-to-adapt advertisers.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a revealing look at how a legacy digital comedy brand like Smosh has professionalized, diversified, and stayed relevant. Alessandra Catanese’s leadership is defined by her talent management background, respect for collaboration, and pragmatic realism about both creator empowerment and industry inertia. For anyone interested in the new media business, Smosh is a model of adaption and sustained creativity.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This week on nexty Media, I spoke to Alessandra Catany, CEO of Smosh, a comedy brand that's been around for nearly two decades and been there for just about every phase of YouTube's development. We talked about how Smosh's content has evolved from classic stunts and skits to live events to the upcoming Grey's Anatomy spoof Smosh Hospital, which is tailor made for the CTV experience. Alessandro and I also talked about the state of video content monetization and why some brands still don't get how to work with creators. Let's get started.

[Mike Shields]

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Ali Catanese. She's the CEO of Smosh. Hey, Al, thanks for being here.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Hey, Mike, thanks for having me.

[Mike Shields]

I'm psyched to talk to you. I'll be honest, because I covered Smosh in the pretty early days when I was at Media Week and Air Week. And I remember, you know, the, I think they were, they were working with Defy Media era, but even before that they were part of DECA. And I just, I, if you asked me in 2025, would they still be around and would they have a CEO? I would have been like, I don't know. Not because the content wasn't great and.

[Narrator]

There'S a huge fandom.

[Mike Shields]

I just, there was. They went through so many changes and they were early in the space and you think, wow, that's not going to last. And so that's a very long wind up to give us like the state of Smosh today. And when you came on board and when this became. Went from a thing to a company or a business, if that makes sense.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, any creator at any size is a full scale business. Right? You know, it might.

[Mike Shields]

Very true.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Actually, yes. 70 employees like we have today. But, you know, I think any size, that's what I learned in talent management when I was working with talent, especially Anthony. It was, we're building a business around you. And I think, you know, today's version of Smosh is, you know, I'd have to agree with you, Mike. Like, I remember being early days in the YouTube economy and you know, I was at a multichannel network called Maker Studios.

[Mike Shields]

Sure.

[Alessandra Catanese]

So fascinated with the industry and I was like, I can't believe this is a thing. You know, my parents are like, you got a job where doing what? And I was like, I just know in my gut, like, this is something and I have to like go down this, this route. But I'd agree with you. I wouldn't think, oh, 20 years from now, you know, I'm gonna be CEO of those two dudes making Pokemon sketch. Right.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

I was in a random hotel room at Vidcon with them and Felix, you know, PewDiePie back in, like, I don't know, maybe 2014 or 2013 or something, when Felix had passed them and most subscribed and they passed baton, we made that video.

[Mike Shields]

This is when Mr. Beast was. Was just a, you know.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right.

[Mike Shields]

Just star in the background. I know how to phrase it.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah. Thought, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, I worked with creators like that all the time, and I never was focused on, like, what's the future? What's the business? You know, I was just absorbing it all in those moments, thinking, it's incredible what we're doing now. And now today, through, you know, my 15 plus years of experience, I realized that every choice I made was leading me to being the best suited person to step into a role like this, especially on the talent management side. I think looking at what you can build, you know, I don't think about Smosh as just, like a media and production company. I also think about us as a brand and. And therefore talent in a particular way, and that evolves as we go. But, um, I think that's how I got here is having those discussions with Anthony and ian. In early 2023, I was Anthony's talent manager. I was running press alike with him. Yeah. But I was still operating as a talent manager, and I hadn't fully understood what being a COO to then becoming Smosh's CEO like, was or what it meant. I was just looking at the brand as, what are the different facets that you can exploit in talent in a talent management lens.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And that slowly became understanding that, you know, I was operating as a CEO, running a business. And the difference to me was when I was talent managing, the creator was the CEO and I was more like CEO. And that's kind of how Anthony and I ran press alike was I was like, what's the vision? And then when Ian and Anthony and I sat down together to talk about Smosh, we were creating the vision together. And I was very much leaning on my experience of, hey, I've worked with talent, you know, and I'm going to be working with, you know, our cast beyond just you guys. And this is the future of the company. They're. They're today, you know, they're. They're today's version of the company, and they're the future of the company, you know, And I said to the guys, respectfully, like, you're going to want to retire. Maybe not immediately, but, like, I could see you guys, you know, pushing 40, pushing 50. I don't think you're going to want to be.

[Mike Shields]

This is a grind life, right? Yeah, it's right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

You know, and. And let's. Let's figure out where the places you do want to remain on camera are and, like, what are the conversations you want to have, what are. What is the content you want to make, and where are the places where you need to take a step back? Because them putting me as CEO didn't meet doesn't mean I run the company and I get to do it all by myself, and nobody gets to tell me what to do. There's still owners and visionaries when it comes to looking at the future of Smosh. So we do that together.

[Mike Shields]

Wait, do you want to be my CEO? Because I actually do want to retire and do less. I don't know what you're thinking.

[Alessandra Catanese]

I'm a little busy, but I'll make the time for you.

[Narrator]

Mike.

[Mike Shields]

I'm realizing, you know, like, we're jumping right into this conversation. I'm familiar with Smosh, like I said, and lots of folks in the industry.

[Narrator]

Are, but maybe not every.

[Mike Shields]

People might have this vague impression of it's two funny guys on YouTube. Right. Like. Like they know something about them. Give us, like, the one on one version of, like, the channel. Because it's not easy to be a brand. Sorry to interrupt you. Beyond just a couple of creators. Right. Or at least early on.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah. Today's Smosh is. Hold on, let me actually collect my thoughts here. I always say four, but then I'm like. I'm pretty sure it's five. So it's main pit games, cast and smash alike. Yeah.

[Narrator]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

We have five active YouTube channels.

[Mike Shields]

Okay.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And we have a host of supporting social media. Obviously, you don't need, you know, an Instagram for every single YouTube channel that you have, but we. We do have a couple. We have revenue on YouTube through Google AdSense. We have Facebook. We have Snap. We obviously have TikTok. TikTok and Instagram are really, like, our biggest marketing platforms.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah.

[Alessandra Catanese]

We have a cast of 15, including Anthony and Ian. We have a younger. A good portion of that cast is younger. Is like barely 30 or late 20s. And some of the cast that we're looking to work with in the future is even younger than that. We have a full fledged merch business now. Right. So it's not just I am a fan of Smosh. Let me go get an Essentials hoodie. Right? It's also, I'm a fan of Angela. I want to go get a T shirt that's specific to her and her brand and what she's doing. Right. And. And each cast member, in that way, has or is. Has plans to launch more merchandising that is kind of like their own line and reflection of their own brand or their own excitement or whatever they're into. And I think a lot of what we're doing there and in general with Smosh, is making sure that content, merch, whatever we're distributing, you don't have to know all this lore about Smosh. You don't have to know every cast member. You don't have to, you know, know the history in order to get it or to like it or for it to be.

[Mike Shields]

You can jump in and be a fan of one of these talents.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And whether it's a show, you know, we've launched, do you know. Do you know your duo? A new hosted by Arasha Leilani. That's something where, yeah, it's probably people who are the fans of our cast. Then there's culinary crimes to. To parallel it. Culinary crimes. You just. You're sitting down, reading a recipe, learning that somebody replaced a lot of the ingredients with something that you have to guess. And then you've got people tasting both, you know, guessing what the recipe. Anybody can watch that. You don't have to know who Courtney is. You don't have to know who Shane is. You don't have to know any of the cast members in particular to get that show right. There's. There's so many pieces of content that we're making now that really honor that. Right? We have the, hey, if you just are a hardcore Smosh fan, you're going to love these things, and we're going to continue to launch these kinds of things. But if you don't know who we are, we are performers who are really great at improv and comedy in general, and we're going to deliver on that side, and there's something accessible for everybody. And I think our January show, Hospital, is a prime example of that. The last time we did a format like this was sitcom, and we. It blew up on TikTok, and we had audience members being like, don't know who these people are. Where do I watch this? That's exactly what we're doing with Hospital in January. It's. You don't have to know who we are. Who wouldn't love to see comedians performing in this way where we're parodying the Grey's Anatomy or General Hospital of it all. We're bringing you the Pit, but our version of it, right? And then, you know, and that will be.

[Mike Shields]

I'm sorry, that will be scripted like, like, is there, is there a good.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Comp in, like, not really. That's the thing that I think is so great about it. Imagine watching SNL, but every time a character breaks, a different cast member has to replace them. Right?

[Mike Shields]

Like, I like this already.

[Alessandra Catanese]

We. So we have a set of doctors and then there's a second cast playing those exact same sets of doctors. And then our cast members who aren't lead billing are playing the patients who have very good marching orders to go make them laugh and break them, but break the documents.

[Mike Shields]

So, like parody plus improv plus, like all these new elements, that. That's gonna be fascinating.

[Alessandra Catanese]

It's a lively, exciting show and I think it shows off the best. Like, we get to use every single cast member. We get to show off the best of the best in terms of our skill of improv and our abilities. And there's some scripted to like have a plotline so that we're following a storyline. But for the most part, I have no idea what's gonna happen in this show. And that's the beauty of it. It's going to be so fun to watch.

[Mike Shields]

How much I apologize if I'm jumping around here on topic, which is typical. How, how much of. Do you, given the last couple of years, a big, A big story in this space, besides just the explosive power of the creator economy, is the, is the YouTube on TV thing is a big deal in media circles? How much do you. Does that factor into what you're producing? And do you think, do you envision that show in a different way because of that?

[Alessandra Catanese]

So we have been, I mean, YouTube is a great partner of ours. We've been working with them, you know, well, for 20 years. But also over the last two, three years, we've been working with them very closely to understand what it is that they're trying to prioritize. And you know, the living room experience is something that they're really trying to prioritize. So for the last year and a half, we've started investing in 4K. And it's a long term game, right? It's a big investment. It's very expensive. It means extra server space, which is insanely expensive if you don't already have a server. Right. But expanding your server is even more Expensive. It's more rendering time, it's more export time. So it's more time intensive and laborious. On our post team, it's new cameras, it's, you know, the high quality of the footage, but also making sure that our DPs are trained in making sure that they're getting the best, you know, shots. In these ways are we maximizing what it is that we're getting and why and how and all that. So a good example of that was Summer Games are. Our programming in August was all shot 4K. And that was something where we encouraged the audience like, watch this on your tv. This is a big deal. Not only do we invest in the quality of production value that we're bringing you, we also invested in our capabilities of expanding that show to feel more kind of like an unscripted reality TV game show. So there's a lot of confessionals. Right. So we're honoring traditional, the conventions of the medium. Right. But I mean we're staying true to who we are. And especially when we're on YouTube, we can get away with a lot more that traditional probably wouldn't respect or appreciate. So you can break that fourth wall. Right. But we honor that. And it's not the same thing that we would deliver to a streaming platform should we sell something beyond us. Right. But we respect and we honor the fact that our audience wants something particular from a platform like YouTube. And so going back to, you know, when we're delivering content and we're thinking of TV or traditional, we are building in the long term plan. But we're also thinking, my Sneaking suspicion with YouTube is, and I have no, I have no facts to back this up.

[Mike Shields]

So I'm not like speculate wildly.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah, I'm speculating wildly. I think with YouTube's investments in YouTube TV, we'll start to see, especially with the features that they've started to roll out to channels like ours where we're, there's seasonality, there's episodes, they're trying to.

[Mike Shields]

Get you to categorize, interface is designed for you to watch more episodes, that kind of thing.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right. I think that there's a delineation that they're trying to slowly make in a very smart and strategic way between YouTube and its TV viewing and YouTube is a search engine. Right. So I think in the future there's, it's very likely that in the next few years we'll see them make a shift so that content like ours isn't, is no longer like on the search.

[Mike Shields]

Engine side, dumped in with everything else.

[Alessandra Catanese]

That actually highlighted in this way of, you know, watch YouTube as a TV service. Right. And I think like I'm a fan of that. I, I'm, I'm excited to see how that might play and how that, that how they go about that. Because I know that it's really easy to think that YouTube can just like flip a switch and make whatever feature or thing that you want happen. And then when you go sit down and talk to them, like we've talked to the team in Zurich before, they, they've come out here before and we've had multiple sit downs with them and we're like, hey, like it's got to be so easy to just do this thing, just, just do a couple clips.

[Mike Shields]

And you fix changes and they're like for the globe.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah. And, and you know, what's great about them is, you know, probably if I was in their seat, I wouldn't be as patient. But, but with, with us, they're very patient to say like, hey, there's actually, you know, 50 other factors that go into making a change like this and it affects the greater ecosystem in these ways. So we have to cont before we can make those changes. So anyway, that's my long winded way of saying, where do I see the future of all of this with tv, I see it blending together and I see digital and traditional becoming the same thing more and more every day.

[Narrator]

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[Mike Shields]

Back to a little bit of the smosh the business right now.

[Narrator]

And how do you.

[Mike Shields]

Because it's been interesting. You mentioned the MCN era that you were part of that I guess, you.

[Narrator]

Know, sort of came and went.

[Mike Shields]

But then, then there was some maybe renewed interest in that in that model or different versions of it. You know, I think from a media buying perspective there's still a little like, well, where do we put YouTube? Where do we, how do we to partner with individual creators? You got these new like studio models emerging. How do you explain yourselves to the market and maybe that you're. What do you maybe learn from that MCN era and what's maybe not useful from that era? It's a long question.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Well, the, the thing I've learned that's helped me at SMOSH is the value of maintaining and owning your own cms so your own content management system.

[Narrator]

Interesting.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And I think with a journalist I get that.

[Mike Shields]

But that, yeah, that might not be obvious to people.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right, right. I think anytime I say CMS to a broader audience, half the audience knows exactly what I'm talking about and the other half is like, never heard of it. So anyway, having a content management system and maybe that's very unique to a media company like ours where we do have five active channels. Right. But owning that management, but also owning the sales and that process with it is so much power and so much responsibility and accountability that we get to then. And I think it's that we get to then maintain ourselves and feel confident in our abilities to do. And I think talking about the MCN world, that's what MCN's told creators that they were going to do for them back in the day that they couldn't do to the scale that they tried to. Right. I was at Maker. There was full screen, there was Machinima, there was style. So many of them, you know, awesomeness. And one of the biggest pitches to the broader creative to, to the broader creators, you know, was, hey, if you roll up into our cms, then we're going to sell you the best, better than anybody else could. We're going to make sure that you have content ID running, you know, blah, blah, blah, and all these other amazing perks.

[Mike Shields]

Some you'd be able to be really strategic and figure out what's working, what's not and make all this money.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right. And for some creators, that is really valuable and can be an, an extreme value add. So I'm not discounting the abilities of companies today to do that. There's a lot of companies out there who are really great at selling media and sometimes better than YouTube because YouTube can't prioritize every channel.

[Narrator]

No.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And I do honor and respect like, and I, and I can acknowledge Smosh's privilege to be so successful means that Google takes a little special care with us. Yeah, they know, you guys, our media. Right. That we're able to craft with them broader sales deals that, you know, can potentially buy out the network or you know, we're hoping to be able to do something more bespoke and custom next year, especially around like, you know, the, the summer games. We might not do summer games, we might do it later in the season. But essentially when we bring back a piece of programming that's like two weeks long that touches every channel, we want to work with a partner that can help sell against that. And we know that Google is the strongest partner for us to work with in, in order to sell that as effectively and at the best price points, you know, and to really, like, hit home with our abilities there. Right. So. So having that is something where I think we've seen the MCN world do that, create that, and we've learned our lessons from it. And now today, you know, that's what it's become for Smosh. I think outside of that, you know, the MCN world really built communities and it taught creators, you know, hey, if I want to, you know, go reach out to so and so, it's going to be 10 times easier for me to connect with this other creator when I say, hey, we're both repped by the same. Or. Or it's going to be easier for me to connect with them when I have a literal person putting that someone.

[Mike Shields]

Could help you do that.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah, right. And I think that was such a huge value add that still can be. That's. That's things that, like, I think talent managers and agencies out there have started to take on themselves of, hey, if we're going to represent you, we're also going to see if we can connect you to our greater network of talent we represent. So when we go sign with an agency or when a creator goes and signs with the talent manager, one of the questions they're asking is, who else do you represent? Not just to see, do I respect the business you're doing with that person.

[Mike Shields]

Legitimate either, but, like, what other potential connections are there that we can.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right. And so I think, like, that's something we should never lose. I preach this a lot like creators come from the roots of YouTube, which is founded on collaboration. MCNs were founded on collaboration. I'll never forget the Maker story. It was the Station, which was a channel that was founded by six or seven, maybe even 10 of the top YouTubers at that time in LA came together and said, let's do this together. We're stronger together than we are on our own. And they lifted each other up. I think to this day that still stands. You know, I got asked the other day at a conference, what do you what do you think about your competition? Or who is your competition out there? Or how do you think about your competition? And I said, I don't. We don't have competition. We have collaborators. My social team gets lunch with mythical. Social team. My production manager gets coffee with dropouts. Production manager. Right. Like we're not.

[Mike Shields]

This isn't NBC versus cbs.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right. It's not Paramount versus Netflix. Yeah.

[Mike Shields]

You know, or together.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right, right. What it is, is, you know, creators getting in a room together saying, hey, when I upload, I do X, Y and Z. And another creator saying, well, when I upload, I do A, B and C. Well, what version of that can I learn from you? And what version of that can you from me?

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And how can we swap tips? Because still to this day we're having this, what, almost 20 year old argument of who's better, traditional or digital? Who's got more eyeballs? Traditional. There is no such thing as traditional or digital anymore. And the more we start to embrace the collaboration at the heart of that and lean away from this like us versus them conflict mentality, the better everybody's going to do. There is no monopoly on the Internet, like, Right. You know, like I can't even think of one, one website on the Internet besides search engines, I guess, where like.

[Mike Shields]

Even that is up is up for grabs.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah, right, right. I'm like, not everybody likes, you know, we were just talking about browsers. Not everybody likes Chrome. Not everybody likes Google. You know, I had a good friend who was like, die hard, Apple Maps. And I was like, I'll never use Apple Maps.

[Mike Shields]

What is wrong with you?

[Alessandra Catanese]

For my life, pay me to use Apple Maps.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

But like, that's my, that's my point is there is no monopoly on the Internet. There is no, like, there's no real fight there. We all have to embrace the fact that this is all entertainment in a million different forms and we can learn so much and help each other and what, you know, what's the phrase that is so overused but we love it over here is rising tides, raise all ships.

[Mike Shields]

Yep. Yep.

[Narrator]

Okay.

[Mike Shields]

You hinted at this earlier about.

[Narrator]

Trying.

[Mike Shields]

To do bigger deals potentially and having YouTube. YouTube involved. You know, there's like a, I wouldn't call it a debate, but there's a lot of different points of view about how to grow the creator advertising economy just beyond the, you know, not just the whole thing and whether whether YouTube should have an active role or not or whether that, that you want, you want to have, you know, big upfronts with like the rest of the ad community or use in between intermediaries? I don't know if there's one answer, but what, what have you found in terms of channeling, like brand integration dollars in a better way? Is there a right way or wrong way of doing it?

[Alessandra Catanese]

Well, what I'll say about YouTube is I don't know whether they. I don't have a comment on whether they should or shouldn't be about. They are involved and they're going to be involved, and any company of that size is going to be involved. When we're talking about advertising, we're talking about. What was it, 39 billion in the creator economy, I think was one of the stats that I read. Whether it was from you or somebody else at this point, who knows, because everybody's talking about this.

[Narrator]

Yep, yep.

[Alessandra Catanese]

These companies care about the bottom line, so they're going to be in the spaces where there's the most revenue. Right. And I think YouTube knows their platform best. Their number one responsibility, in my opinion, is to be educating the ad partners on the ways in which they can use their platform. They can understand the metrics. You know, we still have advertisers being like, oh, you have 26 million subscribers. Perfect, we're going to work with you. And I'm like, why are you. Why do. Why do you care about the subscriber count? You know, like, ask me about my views, ask me about my reach, ask me about my audience retention. Like, right. Like, let's talk about engagement. Let's talk about what is going to make the most impact with my audience here at Smosh. Our philosophy with brands is we have to sincerely represent them. If we don't have a sincere read now, it's easier for me because I have 15 cast members. So you don't have a dog. You have a cat. This person has a dog. Great, here we go.

[Mike Shields]

You got options.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Dog food, let's sell it. You know, like, let's talk about it. But I think ultimately we're representing to the audience that we're not going to sell them something we don't sincerely use in some way, shape or form and. Or we haven't tried out and we can't give a sincere representation of, like, this is a good brand. It always has to be a value add. Now, what does that mean for the greater economy? I think, like, brands need to start getting smarter about the ways in which they create their creative. Right. I think what we see too often still to this day is brands coming through saying, we want to work with you, but we actually do not give a shit about the way in which you would create this content yourself. We want you to use, you know.

[Mike Shields]

This creative colors in this format.

[Narrator]

So you still.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, it still happens.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Some ridiculous company that's all talking themselves in a conference.

[Mike Shields]

We've got to make this work for us, right?

[Alessandra Catanese]

And so here's our talking points, right? And I'm like, we create content every day for our audience. And we have a philosophy of unless it's a literal commercial, like, right? Unless somebody's saying, hey, I'm buying a commercial from you that I'm going to run as paid media, right? If it is a YouTube channel video, it is. If it is a social media platform video, it has to be something we would have created anyway.

[Mike Shields]

You can't put your name on that and have it be terrible.

[Alessandra Catanese]

We don't want to create something unless we're literally acknowledging, hey, this is, this was a brand we really love to work with and we made a commercial with them. Yeah, yeah, that was the purpose was Angela wanted to write a commercial. So she wrote this commercial in partnership with this brand. And look how fun, how much fun we have. And the talent got to write it and direct it. And that creates an opportunity that's different, although that's a little rare. But what I'd say is we still have too many brands coming to us being like, here's the tagline and you have to say it this way, and we want you to do that thing that you guys did, but do it our way. And we wrote the creative for you and here's the script, right? And when it's a like podcast ad read where it's like, hey, we're taking a 60 second break and I'm just giving you the, here's the offer from the brand, but I use this product. That's okay. That's totally fine.

[Mike Shields]

The audience gets that, right?

[Alessandra Catanese]

When you're coming to the table where you've paid a creative agency millions of dollars that you could have paid a fraction to us and we could have made something 10 times better that speaks to our audience, most of the time we have to say no. We'd be like, hey, we would never make a video with like this kind of language or like saying this kind of thing or doing.

[Mike Shields]

You kind of don't get us right now, right?

[Alessandra Catanese]

And. And I'm like, why are we wasting money? You know, have you seen TV commercials these days? They're terrible, right? Half the time I'm watching a TV commercial, I'm like, I don't even know what you're trying to sell me. I have no. You know, these, these marketing professionals have completely lost the plot and they are just pitching ideas to each other and their focus group is each other and then the brands. And I'm like, I'd love to have you guys show us the data behind how that TV commercial performed for you and what it converted, probably most of which you don't have, or you can't really, or it's just so bad you don't want to show anybody. But also, you can turn to a platform like YouTube and work with a partner like us, and you can get.

[Mike Shields]

Instant, very rich data. Every bit, every bit, every bit of it.

[Alessandra Catanese]

But you can get our metrics that we can give you. We can build the narrative around it that says, hey, because we messaged it this way. And we get an audience sentiment from the comments, right? Like, immediately we see comments of people being like, I'm down with this. This is a really cool brand. I love that they got to work with Smosh. That's, that's awesome, right? Or I, I get what you're selling me and I understand why and I want to go check it out. Because somebody that had a sincere representation or was able to put together a really cool, fun, creative project because of this brand, which makes them the hero. Right? I'm gonna go click this link or check out this thing or buy this thing. And you know why these, these brands are still doing this old school route? I think it's just comfort. I think it's like that safety. There's a whole ecosystem around putting together a budget and making a TV show or making a TV commercial and running it in specific space. You know, and it's like we're checking boxes and we're not asking ourselves, why are we still doing it this way?

[Mike Shields]

Right. And have you found more hope? Is it more. Is it easier to work with the quote, unquote, newer brands, challenger brands that don't have that legacy? Have you found that to be the case?

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yes and no. I'd say, like, any brand is going to have its issues. Even brands who are really, really, like, great to work with on the creative side still struggle with the idea that Smosh is not. Or creators in general, you know, aren't the same of what they used to be. You know, it used to be, I'm in my bedroom and I'm making this video.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, you're talking about 4K and they have that image of the kid on their phone. Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And so oftentimes we get brands who are like, you know what, we actually can upload tomorrow. Let's kick it to next week. We weren't able to get Legal to approve in time. We're like, hey, like, that's not how it works for us.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

We have a consistent schedule that our audience is expecting. Any video this month that I kicked to January is now. Now I have a holiday themed video that I can't.

[Mike Shields]

You wouldn't do that to Fox or NBC or whatever. Like. Like, this is a new company.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Right. And we certainly couldn't do that to you. So why do you think it's okay to do that to us? Like, if I book a production day and with less than 48 hours notice the brand wants to move it, I incur costs. I have to pay talent and crew and kill fees. Right. Like, it's expensive to do what we do. But also at the same time, these brands are coming to us because we deliver quality.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Because we know that we can be impactful with what we do and we know that we're going to give you a really quality product that you're probably not going to get from a lot of other creators out there, at least not ones with the substantial history infrastructure that Smosh has. And I think, like, we're proud of what we're able to do and deliver. And brands are still struggling to catch up to the fact that, like, hey, the same way you would go treat a studio is the same way that you should.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, they're behind on the professionalization thing, you know, even though they think they're getting it, I guess.

[Alessandra Catanese]

And not every brand. I think a lot of brands have made insane strides, amazing strides to say, hey, here's the 60 second read that we're going to need, especially for the podcasting world. Like, those reads are quick, they're easy. Less hus, less fuss, less back and forth. You know, I don't need multiple rounds of approval and reviews and notes. It's, hey, you gave us a script. Shane is inserting his personal, genuine part of that read here. And we are delivering it this way. And we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't care and, and want to collaborate with this brand sincerely. And there's a lot of trust that's been built there that I think is really, really good.

[Mike Shields]

All right, that's sort of a hopeful note to end on after we've trash brands and agencies for Ally. Awesome conversation. Great stuff. Looking forward to seeing what's next for you guys.

[Narrator]

And let's chat again down the road.

[Alessandra Catanese]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Mike.

[Mike Shields]

Thank you.

[Narrator]

A big thanks to my guests this week, Alessandra Catanese of Smosh and my partners at View Planner. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's Next in Media. Thanks for listening.