How Brands Can Fight Back Against Walled Garden Dominance

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next in Media – "How Brands Can Fight Back Against Walled Garden Dominance"

Episode Information:

• Title: Next in Media
• Host: Mike Shields
• Guest: Mike Pollock, Managing Director of Digital Media Solutions at Epsilon
• Episode Title: How Brands Can Fight Back Against Walled Garden Dominance
• Release Date: December 30, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Next in Media, host Mike Shields engages in a deep conversation with Mike Pollock from Epsilon to explore the evolving landscape of digital advertising, especially in the context of increasing “walled gardens” and signal loss. The discussion delves into strategies brands can adopt to navigate these challenges and maintain effective consumer engagement.

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2. The Current State of Digital Advertising

Mike Shields opens the dialogue by addressing the persistent uncertainty in the digital advertising market. With ongoing debates around cookies, Google's potential breakup, and the looming transition to a logged-in ecosystem, Shields questions whether the industry is moving towards a restrictive environment that limits consumer outreach.

Quote:

“People worry that we're going to a logged in world only where we're going to be reaching consumers with inherent limitations.”
— Mike Pollock [01:11]

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3. Challenges of Walled Gardens and Signal Loss

Mike Pollock acknowledges the significant hurdles posed by the deprecation of traditional identifiers, which could confine marketers to operating within walled gardens. He emphasizes that such environments restrict marketers' ability to build comprehensive customer relationships, limit data insights, and confine interactions to specific channels.

Quote:

“It limits our view of the customer to a more limited data set, limited understanding of who actually converted... just those specific channels.”
— Mike Pollock [01:37]

Pollock cites a Harris Poll study commissioned by OpenX, revealing that American consumers spend nearly two-thirds of their time on the open web. This statistic underscores the necessity for brands to reach audiences beyond walled gardens to capture meaningful consumer interactions.

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4. Epsilon's Strategy: One View, One Vision, One Voice

Pollock introduces Epsilon's strategic framework to counter the limitations of walled gardens, encapsulated in the principles of "One View, One Vision, One Voice."

• One View: Epsilon assists brands in augmenting their existing customer data with additional insights, creating a more comprehensive understanding of consumer behaviors, preferences, and needs. This approach helps resolve multiple identifiers (e.g., various email addresses) into a single, unified customer profile.

  Quote:

  “We've got nine different forms of identification tied to an individual... helps marketers have a single comprehensive view of the universe of potential buyers.”
  — Mike Pollock [03:41]

• One Vision: Brands can craft targeted engagement strategies based on the enriched data, determining the optimal ways, frequencies, and budgets for interacting with customers to maximize current and projected value.

• One Voice: Leveraging AI-powered media, brands can deliver personalized, relevant messages to individuals across multiple channels, ensuring consistency and relevance that walled gardens cannot offer.

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5. The Importance of Robust Identity Solutions

Pollock emphasizes that effective identity resolution must go beyond simple identifiers like email addresses. Epsilon's solution integrates multiple identifiers to accurately recognize individuals, ensuring reliable targeting and personalization.

Quote:

“Epsilon's person-based ID isn't reliant on a single identifier... allows us to be really good at finding audiences and extending reach to some of these more difficult audiences.”
— Mike Pollock [13:28]

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6. The Role of AI in Enhancing Personalization

The conversation shifts to the impact of Artificial Intelligence on media personalization. Pollock highlights the synergy between identity, data, and AI, which can address complex industry challenges by delivering more nuanced and relevant consumer experiences.

Quote:

“With identity, data, and AI all working together, there's an opportunity to answer complex challenges that the industry really hasn't been well equipped to address until now.”
— Mike Pollock [06:28]

He envisions AI facilitating real-time data integration to avoid repetitive and irrelevant advertising, thereby enhancing consumer experiences and driving more effective marketing strategies.

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7. Convergence of AdTech and MarTech

Pollock discusses the increasing intersection between AdTech and MarTech, driven by the essential need for organized identity and data. He explains that both technologies are converging to enable seamless data utilization for marketing and advertising purposes.

Quote:

“Martech is around organization of identity, organization of data... and then AdTech is how you pay it off.”
— Mike Pollock [09:31]

Epsilon has restructured its sales organization to integrate these technologies, ensuring that marketers can address customer challenges holistically rather than through fragmented solutions.

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8. Standardizing Identity vs. Single Identifiers

Addressing the question of standard identifiers, Pollock advocates for the standardization of the concept of identity itself rather than relying on a singular identifier like email. He warns against the limitations and risks associated with single identifiers, such as lack of person-centric data resolution.

Quote:

“I think the AI tech industry probably needs to shift its focus from picking a singular standard identifier to standardizing the concept of identity itself.”
— Mike Pollock [10:46]

By maintaining a multi-faceted identity approach, Epsilon ensures greater accuracy and flexibility in targeting and personalization.

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9. Balancing Personalization and Privacy

Pollock underscores the critical balance between personalization and consumer privacy. He argues that while personalization is essential for building meaningful customer relationships, it must not compromise privacy standards. Epsilon prioritizes consumer privacy by managing individual opt-outs and safeguarding data rights, ensuring that personalization does not infringe on privacy.

Quote:

“The balance is key and you just don't want the pendulum to shift too far one way or the other.”
— Mike Pollock [16:37]

He provides relatable examples to illustrate how excessive focus on privacy could cripple personalization, ultimately harming both brands and consumers.

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10. Cohort-Based Targeting vs. People-Based Identifiers

The discussion progresses to the debate between cohort-based targeting and deterministic, people-based identifiers. Pollock critiques cohort-based approaches for their lack of personalization and reliance on assumptions, advocating instead for individual-level targeting that leverages comprehensive identity data.

Quote:

“Cohorts... is a much less effective way of taking a stab at personalization.”
— Mike Pollock [17:31]

He asserts that Epsilon's people-based identifier approach offers a more effective means of delivering personalized and relevant marketing messages.

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11. Brands' Concerns and Data Management

Pollock outlines the primary concerns brands face in the current digital landscape, including data cleanliness, integration of disparate data sources, and unifying paid and owned marketing efforts. Brands seek partnerships that can help them cleanse and organize their data, enabling more effective targeting, measurement, and optimization across channels.

Quote:

“Dirty data would be incomplete data, data that you're missing information on.”
— Mike Pollock [18:59]

He emphasizes the importance of reliable data management in overcoming the challenges posed by signal loss and walled gardens.

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12. Conclusion

In closing, the episode highlights the critical need for brands to adopt comprehensive, person-based identity solutions to navigate the evolving digital advertising ecosystem. Mike Pollock from Epsilon provides valuable insights into balancing personalization with privacy, leveraging AI, and bridging the gap between AdTech and MarTech to empower brands against the dominance of walled gardens.

Final Quote:

“Personalization completely gets lost. You're making assumptions and indexing people... start to build a relationship and have conversations across channels.”
— Mike Pollock [17:58]

The episode serves as a pertinent guide for marketers seeking to adapt to the challenges of signal loss and walled gardens, emphasizing the strategic importance of unified identity solutions and data-driven personalization.

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Notable Quotes:

• [01:11] "People worry that we're going to a logged in world only where we're going to be reaching consumers with inherent limitations." — Mike Pollock
• [03:41] "We've got nine different forms of identification tied to an individual... helps marketers have a single comprehensive view of the universe of potential buyers." — Mike Pollock
• [06:28] "With identity, data, and AI all working together, there's an opportunity to answer complex challenges that the industry really hasn't been well equipped to address until now." — Mike Pollock
• [09:31] "Martech is around organization of identity, organization of data... and then AdTech is how you pay it off." — Mike Pollock
• [10:46] "I think the AI tech industry probably needs to shift its focus from picking a singular standard identifier to standardizing the concept of identity itself." — Mike Pollock
• [16:37] "The balance is key and you just don't want the pendulum to shift too far one way or the other." — Mike Pollock
• [17:31] "Cohorts... is a much less effective way of taking a stab at personalization." — Mike Pollock
• [18:59] "Dirty data would be incomplete data, data that you're missing information on." — Mike Pollock
• [17:58] "Personalization completely gets lost. You're making assumptions and indexing people... start to build a relationship and have conversations across channels." — Mike Pollock

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges and solutions related to walled garden dominance in digital media. By focusing on unified identity strategies and the intelligent use of data and AI, brands can effectively navigate the complexities of the modern advertising landscape.

Transcript

[A]

Signal loss was a major theme in Digital Media in 2024. And guess what? Regardless of what happens with cookies or Google's trial, signal loss will be a huge theme in 2025. So this week on Nexie Media, I spoke with Mike Pollock, he's the managing director of Digital Media Solutions at Epsilon. To walk us through how he's advising clients to deal with this new first party centric world and why he thinks adopting a single identifier won't be enough. Let's foreign. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Mike Pollock, Managing Director of Digital Media Solutions at Epsilon. Hey Mike, thanks for being here.

[B]

Ah, thanks Mike. Very happy to be here. Appreciate it.

[A]

Let's take, let's kind of take a state of affairs look at the digital advertising market because there's still some big thorny questions hanging over the space as we head into the new year and all and all the big events coming up, even with cookies may, you know, being delayed and Google maybe not be broken up and all these things are happening. People worry that we're going to a logged in world only where we're going to be reaching consumers with an inherent limitations. Where, where do you see that?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I think there are some real challenges with identifier deprecation that could lead to a conclusion that we're going to end up living in a, in a, in a logged in walled garden world. And you know, I think the reality is, you know, that that would create a ton of challenges. I mean if we are only in a walled garden world. I know from talking to marketers that's something they're concerned with, they don't want that.

[A]

Right. I mean that's not something that even though they love those big players and everything, they don't want, they want options.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, listen, it limits how we as, as marketers build relationships with our customers. It limits our view of the customer to more limited data set, limited understanding of who actually converted ultimately limits us to having conversations with our customers in just those specific channels. Also in a walled garden world, if I want to talk to my own customers, I'm usually limited to just uploading email addresses. And that as a currency is limiting. And yeah, there was a recent study, I think it was by the Harris Poll is commissioned by OpenX and found that American consumers spend nearly two thirds of their time on the open web. And so to me it just underscores the importance of reaching customers outside of.

[A]

The wall demand that we're seeing fulfilled on the retail media networks and the port, everything that's happening because they're out there reading about stuff, think, you know, learning stuff there, there needs to be a way to capture that. Right, yeah.

[B]

I'm going to channel my inner shark tank here. There's got to be a better way. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and so for us, I mean, the way that we think about it, Epsilon, if you don't want to be stuck inside only the World Gardens, the best way out is what we would refer to as having like one view, one vision and one voice, and how they communicate with customers and prospects. And I can unpack that if you want. So, you know, when I, When I talk about one view, it's. It's really. We know that many of the marketers we work with, you have a really strong understanding of their customer base, but it's limited. Right. There's a lot they don't know. So if you're a retailer, you know what you're there buying in their particular location, but not necessarily everything else about that individual. And so we think it's really important for these brands to be able to augment this understanding with additional data. So, Epsilon, we've got a lot of data on those types of customers. We can provide deeper insights into their behaviors, preferences and needs. But we can also go a step further by helping them understand more about the universe of potential customers, who they are and how to engage them. And I think one of the, you know, challenges we think about walled gardens too, is we're trying to reach these people outside of walled gardens, is you have to be able to have identity resolution that goes far beyond email. We talked about that with the Walled garden Challenge. Like, Mike, I know you asked the questions usually, but how many email addresses do you have?

[A]

Well, I mean, I'm not a normal person, but, you know, I got a couple. I got a business one, a personal one. I probably have an old one I've forgotten about. You know, there's. My kids have ones now, so it's a little weird.

[B]

Yeah, no, I think it's pretty typical. I mean, I've got. I've got a Gmail, actually, I think I've got two Gmail addresses when I don't use. I've got a Yahoo. I've got a email for work. I've got older work addresses. So those need to be reconciled to a single individual or a single customer, not a device or an email. And so one of the things that Epsilon does to help solve for this and helps marketers have single comprehensive view of the universe of potential buyers, but resolve back to real people for, you know, if you're a marketer to, to talk to. And so if I kind of build out that view, vision and voice, once we have that understanding and that strong, comprehensive view of buyers and prospects, we can start to craft a vision of how to engage them. And so, you know, it's important for brands to be able to help understand where, how often, where not to engage these individuals and how much to spend on them based on current and even projected value that they might have. And then one voice is really kind of where it gets paid off, where we can allow marketers to put that strong understanding of each individual consumer to work leveraging AI powered media. And you know, the result in that is that marketers can deliver not only a proverbial right message, right audience, right time, but also deliver a message that's relevant for each individual and leverage what they learn to ensure the next message is also really relevant across all different types of channels. And so, you know, for us, so much of that power is lost when you're kind of just in the walled garden route because you just can't do that there.

[A]

So it's interesting, made me think of this. The, you're taking this people based approach and you have all these different variables and pieces that you put together to identify people across the way. Is that, is that an alternative? Because there are, there are a bunch of alternative ideas that emerged the last couple years to save us from the signal lost. Right. Does that mean you don't, you don't need them, it's better to use your thing than their thing? Or are they all going to kind of coexist, work together?

[B]

I mean, identity solutions are inherently very different. Right, because it's all based on the fidelity of the signal and what you're using. And so there are a lot of solutions that might use an email address or a third party cookie or you know, limited information. I mean epsilon, our core ID is inherently different. We've got nine different forms of identification tied to an individual and so we're less reliant upon that. Especially in all the changing landscape that we talked about.

[A]

One thing goes or has changed. You're not hurt as like some, some other identifier might be. Okay, what does AI do to all this? The equa? I mean, it's still very early in our journey here, but you know, and AI is definitely taking hold and you know, the platforms are using it a lot for their media optimization. There's a worry that on the open web it's going to wreck things. But, but I also think there's probably a way that it can probably help you connect better with people. What are you seeing there right now?

[B]

I think there's a massive opportunity. I mean, if you think about it, with identity, data and AI all working together, there's an opportunity to answer complex challenges that the industry really hasn't been well equipped to address until now. The foundation though to do that is data. Right. If you look at AI solutions that we use as consumers, whether it's like Microsoft Copilot or Chat GPT, it's all based on crazy amounts of valuable data that train that model in media though unfortunately that doesn't happen that often. Right. If you think about, we've all had this experience, I'm browsing a T shirt online and too often I'm then retargeted with ads for that same T shirt over time and then get discounts to try to get me to buy that T shirt. It's just a bad consumer experience, especially if I've already bought it. Right now I'm getting targeted with discounts that are lower than what I paid for it versus the ability to actually ingest real time data to know that I purchased that shirt whether it's offline or online and then use predictive signals to know about me and what actions I'm more likely to take. Right. So whether it's pants or shoes, but something that's more relevant to me that's in my mind a really good application of, you know, how AI can be, can be properly channeled and are you.

[A]

Speaking theoretically or is that something like are you going to, you and others and your set going to build these productive predictive engines with your data and try and you know, compete, I don't say compete with what Facebook and Google are doing, but that kind of thing?

[B]

Yeah, I mean we are already doing that and that's, I mean it's extending what maybe others are doing again in walled gardens, but being able to do that across open web with a fuller understanding of what we know about individuals and then continuously getting smarter to be able to serve that right message.

[A]

Does it help you with that identity challenge we've been talking about, you know, like. Or does it help you just tie together more pieces or is it kind of an alternative to the going after the logged in world we've been talking about?

[B]

I look at it as more, I guess maybe it's the alternative. I think it's more about getting back to right message, right time. But it's what is the next best action? What is it that I want to serve to somebody based on what we know about them? It's that predictive nature, but utilizing massive sets of data to make sure that we're delivering the most appropriate message or offer to an individual based on where they are in their purchasing journey.

[A]

Right. Are there only going to be so many big players that can compete in that kind of front? Like how many, how many? Either on the buy side or the sell side, how many companies can have like really robust amounts of data to train these, these AI, precious AI platforms the right way?

[B]

I, I think it's quite limited because you need, you know, going back to the first point, you need massive amounts of data. Right. And so, I mean, Epsilon has been doing this for decades and the amount of data we've been able to collect. But if you want to train models and be sophisticated, you need identity and you need data at the core. And so I think that does limit, you know, how well it could be.

[A]

Done, shifting gears a little bit. But it's related. There's been a lot of talk lately because of all this stuff that we're talking about. The worlds of AdTech and MarTech are maybe crashing into each other more than they have in the past. Is that, is that true? Why is that and what does that mean?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think they are coming together because I think about the Martech side, it's around organization of identity, organization of data. It's the tools that allow you to figure out what your customers are doing and how you want to speak to them. And then ad tech is how you pay it off. Right. Ad tech is in. How do you take that data, the segmentation, all the work that you've done, and ultimately go find them. And so yeah, I do see those things.

[A]

So those things used to be disconnected, but the importance of identity makes you, makes it really important for them to come together.

[B]

I guess that's right. That's right. I mean, we actually just restructured, you know, our, our sales organization. We historically have had three different divisions. We had a tech division which is everything from Data onboarding to CDPs and loyalty platforms and clean rooms. We had then a data division and we had a digital division which was activated Media. We changed our entire sales organization go to market because all these things work together. You couldn't have these all segmented out. It's about how do you solve real customer challenges. And the reality is you need all those pieces kind of humming together.

[A]

Is everybody going to have to pick a standard IDENTIFIER at some point does that mean like once you get those stacks together, do you have to pick one way of doing things, one partner or how does that look?

[B]

Yeah, it's funny, I was just having this conversation with my colleague and her point of view, and I agree with it is I think the AI tech industry probably needs to shift its focus from picking a singular standard identifier to standardizing the concept of identity itself. And so as privacy laws evolve and consumer behavior changes, the industry is going to prioritize a unified understanding of identity and stop relying on traditional identifiers like cookies and place the emphasis on real verification and accuracy in ID solutions. And integrated transaction data with digital touchpoints will help us optimize and remove waste. But to answer your question though, I don't think there should be a standard identifier. I think marketers need to pick a standard identifier. Right. We've got our.

[A]

Them.

[B]

You mean for them. For them. And we have our core ID which does everything, you know, I've mentioned. And we have found ways to make our identity portable so it can be operable with other platforms. Right. But I don't know. I provide a word of caution, I think when it comes to even the word standardization. When I think of standardization, I think it means almost like the lowest common denominator solution.

[A]

Inherently limiting. Right. Or boxing you in a, in a business, you don't want to be boxed in.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think like the thing that often gets thrown out as it relates to a single identifier is email. And email is just not enough. It's. Right, we talked about it. It's not person based. It has the challenges like we spoke about. Right. Everyone's got multiple email addresses that's, they're not resolved. To an individual, that's problematic. And so I think there's risk if you go down to just trying to get a single standard for the industry.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, not to go on a tangent, but you see this in television where there's a lot of excitement around CTV targeting, but you don't log into everything. Increasingly a lot of people are using free services with no logins. There has to be some other way or the other means of connecting those dots. I just wonder, are there certain consumers, they're just attracted to anonymity or they, they, their habits by nature just don't. They're not logged in all the place or they just, they make it harder for you in signal loss. Is that, is that an issue for you and your clients?

[B]

Yeah, there are People that are harder to reach. Right. You know, despite Google, what was it? And I guess it was just this past summer, right. Announcing that they're not going to be unilaterally removing third party cookies from Chrome. Signal loss is happening. Right. And it's not just cookies. You've got unstable identifiers like IP addresses and device IDs that are becoming unreliable. And so, yeah, you have people that are harder to reach. You've got data degradation that happens over time, you know, when a consumer clears their browser cache. And so, yeah, you've got people that are, that are ultimately more difficult. Another example would be Apple. Right. There's no third party cookies on Apple.

[A]

Kind of a big deal.

[B]

Yeah. And so I think if you turn the page and focus on the, there are things you can do about it. I mean, Epsilon's person based ID isn't reliant on a single identifier. Right. So it's not relying upon third party cookies or just IP addresses or just device IDs. And so that allows us to be really good at being able to find audiences and extend reach to some of these more difficult audiences. Another, I think, interesting way to think about it too is there's also like this segment of audiences that are the opposite, that are really super easy to reach, where, you know, their digital exhaust is everywhere. They're always online. The problem there is everyone is trying to reach them because everybody can identify.

[A]

Yeah, right. So it's almost like it reminds me of the old days. They were talking about the heavy TV viewer versus light TV viewer. Like you would run a big campaign, you're never going to pound that one group over the head. And that's the same way you see, you're seeing the same dynamic.

[B]

That's exactly right. The whole notion of over oversaturation. And that's a problem, right, because everyone's bidding on those same individuals also drives the price up. But if you think about from a marketer perspective, how do brands grow? Right?

[A]

Brands, you need new people.

[B]

Yeah, right. Either sell more to, to the same people or you need new people, which means you need incremental reach. And so that's the importance of not being stuck with signal loss and being able to make sure that you're not stuck to a smaller and smaller pool. Right.

[A]

As cool as it is that brands can go use a clean room and match up their, their customer base with somebody else's. You don't want to just reach your, your, your choir, you know, the people that you already, already in your customer base, you got to keep growing that thing. All right, what about, you know, the industry is constantly evolving, right? They're trying to, to this effort to have an enhanced id, but also a better protect privacy. You know, it's still uncertain where the new administration is going to come down on all this stuff, but the state laws are there. Are we getting the balance right for customers between the personalization they want, but the not being freaked out factor? Like, how are we doing there?

[B]

I love the word balance. VM because I think that's ultimately what, what you need, right? I think we can't lose sight of personalization, but we can't do that at the expense of compromising privacy. But the problem is if, if we kill personalization, you can't build relationships. I'll give you an example. And this is not even in the marketer world, right? But I moved out, lived in New York City for the last 20 years, moved out to the suburbs three years ago. But you know, over the last three years, got to know my neighbor really well, right? Spent time together, had some beers, introduced the families. But what if every morning when I saw him, it was like I never had those past conversations and I started asking him, how many kids do you have? What do you do for a living? What are their names? You think he would think I was crazy, right? But that's what would happen if we kind of focus only on privacy and we remove personalization. In the, in the marketer world, it's the whole concept of like 50 first dates, if you saw the movie. But I also think that's what consumers actually, I saw what I think I know that's what consumers expect. There's a lot of data points that consumers want personalization. And so I'll give you like one other example. In the marketers world, I've been a Spotify member since probably, I think 2019. And if I started seeing Spotify ads that were trying to acquire me as a new, as a new member, right? And especially like, what the hell?

[A]

What is wrong with you, Spotify? You don't even get me at all.

[B]

I thought we were versus versus. If Spotify actually knew something about me and knew I've got two kids and they're getting older now, we're probably fighting over who, who can use the Spotify on what device and trying to upgrade me to a family plan, right? I mean that that's what we should be aspiring to and that's what personalization allows for. And so it's just around striking that balance. And I mean, at epsilon, we've Always been at the forefront of protecting consumer privacy and the rights to their data, managing opt outs on an individual level. But it's. The balance is key and you just don't want the pendulum to shift too far one way or the other.

[A]

Speaking of the pendulum shifting, there's been a lot of talk last couple years about it shifting towards a cohort world versus a deterministic world. It sounds like your, your people based identifier is going one way versus the other. But do you, if we have to target people in cohorts more, we have to be more careful. I imagine that personalization might get lost or might, there might be some bad assumptions made. What do you think about that whole shift?

[B]

Yeah, I think, I mean personalization completely gets lost. You're making assumptions and indexing people and saying, you know, these people behave a certain way versus taking the individual identity, the individual information we know about somebody to customize a, a message to them and start to build a relationship and have conversations across channels. Cohorts to me is a, a much less effective way of, of, of taking a stab of personalization.

[A]

Lastly, you know, what are brands asking, are they? I imagine it's a, there's a spectrum of those that are really paying attention to all these signal loss challenges and trying to dive into it versus some that have been putting things off or just don't. They don't have, they don't dig that deeply into it. What, what kind of stuff are they asking you and what does the range look like?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's around helping them because I mean everything, every brand is kind of facing the same types of challenges. They've got data, a lot of that data is kind of dirty. You're in different places and they're trying to organize it and they're trying to stitch it to an individual. They want to be able to use it for marketing, both paid and owned. And they're trying to tie those things together as well because too often kind of paid and owned have been operated separately. And so they're talking to their customers in very different ways. And so they're trying to kind of break down these barriers across channels, use their data more effectively to be able to better target, measure, optimize, you know, their media.

[A]

I think I have to ask you before you go, what is dirty data that sounds, that sounds scary?

[B]

Dirty data would be incomplete data, data that you're missing information on. Right. Maybe you've got, you know, an email address, but you're missing a phone number or maybe there's a digit off. So this is the reality of databases, right? They're not as. Yeah.

[A]

They're not as perfect as you like to believe.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. So they need partners to be able to help them cleanse it and make it usable.

[A]

All right. Well, Mike, awesome stuff. Lots of stuff. Lots of fascinating topics to unpack over the. Over the coming months and year. But thanks so much for your time here. Let's talk again.

[B]

Appreciate the time, Mike. Thanks so much.

[A]

Thanks again to my guest this week, Epsilon's Mike Pollock. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's Next in Media. Thanks for listening.