← Next in Media
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- [00:00]
A
The thesis has always been to turn creators into household names. And in the last two years, we solidified our formula of how we achieve that. And in doing so, our mission is to build the new blueprint of Hollywood, which we've coined Creator Hollywood. We're focusing on optimizing our creators holistically, so we talk to them about monetization strategies, strategies of how to build their careers, and tactics that will help amplify them into becoming the top 1% of the creator economy. That additional post had over 1.5 million likes, over 30 million views, and 20,000 comments. So I did my first deal in 2014, early 2015, for $1,000. Those deals stacked every week, and it was like 10k, 15k, 25k. And I'm like, wait a second, there's business here. This period of time will be studied in history, in the media books.
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B
This week on nexty Media, I talked with Leanne Paris, founder and CEO of Made By All, a leading talent management firm centered around top creators. Leanne and I talked about what she learned from starting her career in the celebrity endorsement world and how she's been able to apply those lessons to the creator space. While also acknowledging some of the big fundamental differences between the financial models of Hollywood and Silicon Valley. Leanne also gave me her take on platforms like YouTube, helping broker brand deals, and how the lack of continuity in the CMO world may be slowing the growth of the creator economy overall. Let's get started. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Next in Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Leanne Paris. She is the founder of and CEO of Made by all, which is a leading talent agency in the creator world. Hey, Leanne, thanks for being here.
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A
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
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B
Excited to talk to you because you're kind of at the center of so many interesting trends right now. I don't want to get into that, but I think it probably would behoove, like, you know, some of the audience will know you guys. And I've actually, you've had. We had somebody from your firm on one of my. At one of my events recently. But just tell us Made by All and what the. Give us the origin story.
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A
Yeah, I started Made by All nine years ago. The thesis has always been to turn creators into household names. And in the last two years, we solidified our formula of how we achieve that. And in doing so, our mission is to build the new blueprint of Hollywood, which we've coined Creative Creator Hollywood.
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B
Okay.
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A
We're super different in the creator economy landscape. In Terms of other management companies, we have a very intentionally small roster so that we can truly be partners to our clients and we look at amplifying their careers in a global landscape.
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B
So you're like, I think people love to put, you know, put companies in buckets. Are you like, you know, there's there historically, and this is like, you know, ebbed and floated over the years, but like a big. A big holiday agency would have a division that's just for creators or a guy who, like, did this stuff. Is this like the boutique version of that or is it. Is it more than just like, you know, what we think of as the agent's job?
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A
Yeah, it's definitely more robust than someone bringing deals to a table. Like, an agent's job is to really procure deals. We're true management. So we're focusing on optimizing our creators, like, holistically, so we talk to them about monetization strategies, strategies of, like, how to build their careers and tactics that will help amplify them into becoming the top 1% of the creator economy. So we focus on making sure they're in the right rooms, on the right red carpets, building the right relationships, spending time with the platforms, creating organic content with celebrities and CEOs and us. Like, that's the foundation that allows us to build real revenue and impact for our clients. So as managers, we're really focused on all of those things and then also on top of it, because we're such partners to our clients. My job and our manager. My manager's jobs is to really identify where our clients need to level up and help them achieve that. So, like, what are they doing that they shouldn't be doing? Where are they spending their time that they shouldn't be spending their time on so that they can have greater output. So we're really in deep with our clients.
- [04:18]
B
Okay. A lot of. A lot of different angles to unpack there. But give us what were you. Because it's so interesting how people end up in these founding companies like this and getting, you know, deeply invested in this world. What. What were you doing before this?
- [04:31]
A
So just to back up even before that, like, I. A few things. I've always wanted to be a manager. I've identified that since I was in middle school. I, like, knew that that was the path for me. I didn't know how I would get there or what that actually looked like, but I knew that I wanted to entertainment. And also my passion was always digital. From a young age, I understand. I understood the importance of building an identity on AOL profiles. And then in high school, I discovered Tumblr, which allowed me to inherently understand the value of following a creator on the Internet. And that changed my reality of what was possible for me because I had these fashion bloggers that I would follow around the world. That really inspired me as a young woman. So then when I came to Hollywood, I got my first job at a celebrity endorsement agency, which was, like, so perfect for me because I was able. It was a boutique company, but they had huge celebrities and they were focused on endorsements. And that allowed me to understand the foundation of how an endorsement was ran, how Hollywood really worked, and how these brand agents really sat on the bigger teams of the celebrities. And in that company, they gave me freedom to sign who I wanted. So I started signing vine stars and the Tumblr girls.
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B
We've had a Tumblr reference and a Vine reference in this. On this episode. It's been a while. I like this.
- [05:58]
A
Yeah. So I was, like, working really early, before creator economy was a term on these digital creators, understanding how valuable it was for me. And I was already spending my time on social media. So creator. I did my first deal in 2014, early 2015, for a thousand dollars. And then for 2015 through 2017, those deals stacked every week, and it was like, 10K, 15K, 25K. And I'm like, wait a second. Like. And then I started signing more creators, and I was like, there's business here, but you're.
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B
At the same time, you're learning the playbook of the quote, unquote, traditional old celebrity.
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A
I was doing both, and the creators, like, didn't have anyone supporting them. So for someone like me to come in who already was working with celebrities and big brands, they're like, yeah, absolutely. Like, let's do this.
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B
And so you're. I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions because we're. Our audience is like, very. It's crossover, But a lot of ad industry, media buyer, sales folks, you're like. I'm guessing you're almost like an accidental person getting. Getting yourself in the ad business? Or maybe. Maybe you have a passion for brand entertainment. I don't know. But, like, it's like, how did you. I guess, how would you assess how marketers are doing dealing with creators today versus just like, a couple years ago when you were getting. Getting going?
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A
Well, I mean, it's day and night, right? Like, and that's. That is just simply shown in the revenue of the entire industry. And my company doubling our. Our revenue each year since We've been in business so but from an actual like day to day, it's there. The brands are finally understanding that our creators offer four things. And I say this all the time and I coined this phrase called Daisy D A S I Our creators offer brands and celebrities distribution, attention, storytelling and impact. And for the first time, brands are waking up to the fact that creators not only are driving force of distribution and amplification, they can also now add different value sets to the brand. So that's why I launched a new part of our company called Made by Us which positions our clients in different ways that leverages their expertise. Like some of my creators, while they're the biggest creators on the Internet, they also are geniuses at recognizing how to write briefs and how to help anyone go viral. So now I'm positioning them creative directors for, for brands and using their production facilities to go to a brand and say listen, your page has no storytelling. You're investing all of this money into celebrity and creator, which is wonderful and we're happy to do that business. But now the next evolution is for the brands to recognize that they too can become distribution like centers I was
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B
going to say it sounds like do a lot of brands stop at the D part Like I, I this is like another way to get it reach, reach my audience and not recognizing the other unique value propositions that a lot of these creators have.
- [08:59]
A
So I think it's like so important to like take a look at the landscape of the brands. And I've been working with P and G and Old Spice for like seven and a half years. We've worked with them across maybe 20 of our clients over the past seven years. Some on multi year relationships, some on one offs. And the brand executives, they shift so often that like it's hard to, we've gone deep with them and I've done such impactful campaigns with them, but it's, there's such turnover that it's like even when you catch momentum it changes so fast.
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B
Especially with a relatively newish thing that is lesser proven in their.
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A
So I think when sometimes people run and then they walk again. And for us as a company, our focus is global. So now you know, we just opened our office in Dubai. It's actually opening a Monday. We have someone leading that region because our clients do so much business in that in we should have, we should
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B
have done this episode over there.
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A
That would have been yeah, we can, we can do it again. Our clients just do so much work with like Abu Dhabi, Saudi Qatar and it's Just now we're focusing on such a robust marketplace that when the brands stop and go, we have so many. But obviously the preference is finding the brands that our clients love and going deeper with them. And we, we see that a lot like it. It's. The industry is definitely maturing and evolving in a very strong way and I think it's still just the beginning.
- [10:23]
B
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- [11:37]
A
I think it's two separate financial models and two separate worlds. I think a lot of the legacy media companies are recognizing that they need to shift and so many changes are happening in real time right now. This period of time will be studied in history, in the media books. And I think right now Tubi and Netflix, they're all figuring out how to build a bridge for creators. To them, what I'm focused on and what I'm betting my company the future of my business on is we're building the bridge for celebrity in Hollywood to the creator economy. So we're actually focused on the reverse. And once we like secure the capital for our raise, I can go in so much more detail about our business model. But for the past eight months, we've been building the financial and concept vision deck of what this creator Hollywood ecosystem will look like. And that's what made by all and made by us is focused on. So I think in terms of the bigger landscape, everyone truly for the first time is recognizing that they need to shift. But I still think Hollywood is like, trying to hold on as long as they can until they really have to shift.
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B
Right.
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A
Like the Oscars coming to. To YouTube is such a big deal and you would think that these agents in Hollywood recognize it, but at the same time, their clients are still so big. Like these a list celebrities, they still hold so much weight. But I don't think that is going to last.
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B
There's only so many of them and we're not getting the new stars like we used to.
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A
We can't. Because the new stars and the, the kids, they care about, the YouTubers and the, and the social media stars. And that's a fact.
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B
You, you made an industry point that's, you know, maybe obvious but underappreciated, is that the. Trying to bridge those worlds, the, the financial models are different. Right. So that just like, inherently can cause friction or just difficulty in bringing those worlds together, I guess.
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A
Absolutely. And I think even beyond the financial models, the actual engines and processes that fuel both are tremendously different.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Creators move at an alarming speed versus Hollywood. Right. And I think there's pros and cons to both. But when the worlds actually do collide, which is our goal and vision, it will look much different. And premium IP for the first time will be available on the creator channels that everyone goes to and watches for entertainment.
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B
That's interesting. I want to come back to the, the brand stuff. So it's this, like you said, this. A business is evolving so fast, and it has for the last 10 years, it feels like. Do you. I, I think I hear different things from different people. In a perfect world, would you, do you guys want to be involved in brokering brand deals? Would you. Would it. Would you rather that be just an agency's thing?
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A
No. No.
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B
Or, you know, like you want to be in the mix?
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A
Yeah. Our specialty is negotiation and building relationships. The key stakeholders at every brand and agency, that's our job. That's what I've been doing since I was an assistant in 2015. Like my bosses, when I first started, they force, they, they would, they would tell me to cold call everyone until I got someone on the phone. And that was such an important exercise for me because it allowed me to be so confident in who I'm representing and why I'm calling people. And I've been building this robust, you know, list of contacts since 2014. And when I built expanded my company. Now we have the benefit of all of our agents having contacts. So every week we send out a very short and concise email blast summarizing all the deals we've done, what my clients have coming up, and that goes out to like 5,000 brands and agencies. And the thing is, unless you're, and I want to say this tastefully because it doesn't apply to every agent. The reason managers have historically had a little bit more success when working with creators is because the creative process is so unique for each creator. So you can't blanket negotiate for someone unless you truly understand their process.
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B
You're not cookie cutter things.
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A
Exactly. That's why management has, that's why I believe management has more a bigger success rate in this, in the future of the creator space unless the agents can figure out a way to really. And listen. But I love the agents. I work closely with WME and CIA and UTA and they're amazing. But I think in terms of bandwidth it's a true problem. And I think managers who have smaller rosters can understand the clients much more deeply so they can negotiate better.
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B
Okay, on that note, what. So there's, there are all these efforts to like brands are talking like Unilever wants to spend half their budget on creators now. And some of these, you know, there's all these great, great projections for media dollars coming into the creator economy, I guess, which is all good, but it's still, it still seems like it's going to be tricky or just it's not smooth maybe, and maybe it never will be. Like, what do you think of efforts to try and like streamline this? Because you said everything is so un. But you know, brands love things we
- [16:59]
A
use trying to streamline it. Right. And I think that's why the influentials of the world have like such a robust business because they rely heavily on AI and scalable processes. And there's a company called Komi K O M I that I work closely with and they have a new infrastructure internally that allows brands to access like you know, infinite creators and understand their demographics. So I think in terms of like finding the right creators for the right brands, I absolutely think there needs to be better processes. But right now it's such a fragmented business. And I think that's also the beauty of the creator economy and social media is that the power isn't concentrated in a sense. So I think there's just pros and cons. But I think the evolution of the process absolutely needs to evolve with AI and we're working really diligently on how we're going to achieve that as a company.
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B
There, there might not be one answer to this question, but should creators be like driven by the media, budget, media agency or in some cases there's. Are they so aligned with the creative output that they should be part of? You know, the. Like you mentioned, they're really good. Some of these guys are so good at briefs and things. Should there be a standard way of these like deals happening or is that not realistic?
- [18:16]
A
I mean when you work at the highest level of the creator space, like every professional sends like a very dialed in scope of work and like it's pretty, you know, standard to receive like what the exclusivity is, what the term is, what the scope is that you can appropriately like quote the brand essentially. But I think in the early stages the most successful brands will work more deeply with managers and creators directly to figure out what will go viral, what will have a moment of impact and when you can rely on the creators for their inputs. I think the results are 10 times what a brand could achieve on their own. And I think that's simply because the creators live and breathe social media.
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B
Right.
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A
That's also why I launched Made by Us, which is our social storytelling incubator studio. Like you know so many words but like essentially we're helping brands and celebrities tell viral stories on the Internet and create serialized ip and that's a whole nother conversation. We don't need to talk about it yet, but there is a huge opening.
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B
What do you. Again, you. You might have been able to answer this question. What would you like to see at from the. In the marketing world? You mentioned the turn, the turnover. Turnover has been a challenge with CMOs like forever. But it seem, it seems worse than ever now. And you mentioned like these projects you need to champion and then someone goes moves. It's probably harder. Like should this come out of. I don't know if there's an answer to this. Should this come out of the. Do the C level folks have to be more bought in at brand levels to make these things have more continuity? Is there a better way of structuring things or always going to be kind of the way it is until things.
- [19:56]
A
I think there absolutely is a way to structure it and I believe in relationship building and I think this, the executive team that invests in meeting creators that they're going to spend a lot of money with, it should be treated like a relationship. We've had creators who show up to events meet the executive team and then they're selected to work with that brand because of the foundation they've established. So I do believe as a company, we value and take the time to help those relationships be formed. And I think a lot of companies don't do that. It's simply a churn and burn revenue deal play. And I think obviously from a business perspective, you have to focus on the revenue. But for us as a company, we, we're. I understand that in order to have great revenue, we need to have great relationships. So for me, it's one and the same. And I think brands who understand that and can, like, really prioritize having intentional meetings with creators, they'll win.
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B
I'm putting you on the spot here a little bit, but do you have great examples of some of your clients working with brands either, you know, just on an on and a. On a series, an original, a really successful promotion? Like, what, Are there some good success stories?
- [21:11]
A
We have so many, like we recently had had and. And we just sent out an email blast that like, talked about intentional creator collaboration. And when our creators collaborate together, the. The skill and impact is amplified. So recently we had six clients travel to Vegas for the UFC fight with Paramount, and they were each contracted to do, you know, whatever they were contracted to do. They all decided to get together and do an additional post just for fun. That additional. Yeah, that additional post had, like, over 1.5 million likes, over 30 million views, and 20,000 comments just in the initial, like, you know, first 48 hours. So, you know, in terms of the power of the collective and success, like, for Paramount in the ufc, that was. That was a tremendous win.
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B
Sure.
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A
And even, like, we worked with, you know, Qatar Airlines and visit Abu Dhabi. Like, our creators who work together on those campaigns amplify that success. And we just have so many deals that, you know, another good example is the NFL. We do a ton of business with the NFL and they know our clients so well that they come back and are innovative. And they, like, actually take the time to sit in meetings with our clients and be like, if you were the head of social, what would you do? And they flip the question in the conversation, and that's how real things happen. And I really applaud the NFL for, like, leaning into the creator space and taking the time to build these relationships. Because now they text me, they're all the time like, hey, what's up?
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B
And they're the NFL. They could be like, we're fine.
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A
You know, they understand that relationships are important. So I think brands who understand that, like, are winning and it Shows.
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B
Does it, does it help you or hurt? Like you're seeing a lot. This, this has changed over the years, I feel like, where YouTube, for example, would have like a group that was trying to broker brand deals and they kind of got out of it. Now they, they're pushing it a lot more. I think, you know, TikTok's going through transition. They all, all these companies have these like, groups. Yeah. Is that make your life easier? Does it make it more complicated?
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A
You love it. Absolutely. It's amazing.
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B
So that they're, they're just, they're they're
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A
bringing more money deals. Yeah, we, we, we were getting a lot of love.
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B
Okay, so that's a good thing. That's not, that's not making I people because people talk about these, like being in Zoom calls with 40, 45 people trying to put together these deals, but it's, it's, it's all lifting the category, I believe.
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A
So.
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B
Okay, what, what is kind of driving you crazy? What is. But like, what do you need better? Is it like measurement? Is it like just a consistency?
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A
You know what I would love to see, I would love to see the platforms really understanding that social media is global, but it's also really local. And I think this, the platforms should have, like, they should evolve to have like, okay, if you want to look at Dubai region, you should be able to flip to that region and see what creators are there, because the algorithm is, is a funny thing. And I, our clients who are creating comedy do build a global community. And we're also doing deals right now in China and Southeast Asia where we're, our creators are being, we're building their presence on those individual apps. But in terms of the Instagram, YouTube and TikTok, I think that I would love to see deeper metrics per city and like, yeah, you know, because it is global, but at the same time, it's really not like the creators who are based in the uk. The brands want to see that they have UK following the people in the US they want to see us falling. But there needs to be an evolvement there and I, I can see it happening hopefully soon. And then it would really help the business side of this space evolve in a very unique way.
- [25:03]
B
A couple more for me, Lana has. How much has you, you mentioned your, your roots in this category and how, and how, how you started, you know, Tumblr and Vine and social platforms. How much has it changed you or your client mixed? This whole YouTube all of a sudden being so big on television, I think still has caught A lot of people by surprise and it's, I wonder if it's changing the way your creators think about what their, their output.
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A
Yeah, I, I, as a company it's our job to look at the social landscape and advise them on what they're missing because our creators are so laser focused. So it's my job to remind them to utilize all the features in every platform and push them to do so because it drives deeper community. I love YouTube and as a company we're betting on the future of YouTube. I think from a monetization perspective, YouTube is the best offering. Simply because they offer long form.
- [25:52]
B
Sure.
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A
And because there's long form we can have more ads and the ad revenue on, on YouTube is tremendous. And it's depends like when the creator came up like a lot of creators like were birthed from the TikTok boom and because of that boom, you know, short form creators are really unique but the long form creators really hold, you know, a lot of weight from a revenue perspective on AdSense and I think that's both are tremendously important. But I, I'm pushing our creators to go into long form.
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B
On that note, what do you think of, I'm throwing this at you out of nowhere. The, the, you know, TikTok and Instagram are talking about wanting to get into the TV world. They're seeing what's going on with, with CTV, with YouTube. I, I have, I've heard mixed thoughts on whether that's going to work or not. But are you, are you looking at
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A
that closely going on to like people?
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B
Most people don't watch reels and tick tock on TV yet, but I think they would like that to be a thing. But that, that's a really different use, you know, experience and that creation, they're
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A
doing it on YouTube so what's the difference?
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B
I guess because it's so short form
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A
algorithm, you could watch shorts on YouTube.
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B
True. And people do it on television. Yeah. I mean it's gonna be fascinating to
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A
see how it unfolds, how that would look. But I, I love social media and I am everyone's biggest fan. As a someone who uses it, you have to use it with intention. And when I find myself scrolling unintentionally, my heart, I can honestly see my heart rate racing and decreasing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. So I think I like to keep it on my phone versus TV in terms of short form. But that's such an interesting thing to see evolve.
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B
Yeah, I guess. Last thing, what do you, you probably get this question all the time, like what do brands still not get about this space? What maybe is the question you wish you stop hearing or is there anything that you want to get, you know, communicate to this group?
- [27:41]
A
I think brands should look at their own social platforms as an opportunity to develop their own distribution community and and you know, storytelling engine. And I think almost every brand that I look at their social media, I think there's a huge white space and they could use creator to really amplify their owned and operated social platforms. And I think that is like why Made by Us was started and Made by Us is going to evolve. But I think brands, if they understand the power of social, they should really wake up and start focusing on their own platforms using creators to amplify that
- [28:24]
B
to lead the way. All right. We can talk about so many different things. Leanne, awesome conversation. Thanks so much for your time here
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A
and thank you so much for having me. This is great.
- [28:32]
B
Thanks again to my guest this week, Made by all, CEO and founder Leanne Paris and my partners at View Planner.