Podcast Summary: Next in Media

Episode: How Nick Fairbairn and Andy Schonfeld Are Bringing Performance Marketing to Television
Host: Mike Shields
Guests: Nick Fairbairn (VP of Growth Marketing, Chime), Andy Schoenfeld (CRO, Tatari)
Date: December 17, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the evolution of performance marketing from digital-first brands to television, especially focusing on how data-driven, direct-to-consumer marketing tactics are being adapted for TV campaigns. Mike Shields speaks with Nick Fairbairn of Chime, a company that grew up on social and digital media, and Andy Schoenfeld of Tatari, a TV and streaming advertising technology platform. The discussion centers on the reality, challenges, and future of performance TV, including strategy shifts, measurement hurdles, the impact of COVID on TV inventory, CTV versus linear, and predictions for interactive formats.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chime’s Evolution from Digital to TV (00:46–04:22)

• Origins & Early Media Mix:

  • Chime launched in the neobank space, using “organic social and having kind of a voice and having fun in a category that does not have fun” (Nick Fairbairn, 01:25).
  • Early media spend was highly concentrated in major digital “walled gardens” (Meta, Google) — “80% of your spend is in those two places and it’s working amazing and your company is growing.” (Nick Fairbairn, 02:00)
  • Recognized risk: “If one of those two things stops working, you know, we're screwed.” (Nick Fairbairn, 02:10)

• Portfolio Approach & Introduction to TV:

  • Nick discusses the move to diversify acquisition with a portfolio approach, including TV/CTV to balance reach with performance:
    • “I really now, over the last 10, 15 years have used it as a performance meets brand vehicle.” (Nick Fairbairn, 02:16)
  • Chime did not enter TV until its partnership with Tatari, around 2019.

2. Barriers and Misconceptions about TV for Digital Brands (03:13–04:22)

• Perception of TV as expensive, inflexible, and lacking the optimization of digital channels.
• Acknowledgement of “a lot of unknown and false precision in some of those digital channels. Just because we can see it, we think that’s the truth.” (Nick Fairbairn, 03:13)
• The initial strategy was to approach TV “like it’s Meta to start, and then we evolve and grow.” (Nick Fairbairn, 03:47)

3. The Changing TV Landscape & COVID’s Impact (04:22–07:44)

• Tatari’s Role & Early State of CTV:

  • “We actually started as a linear company...streaming was a very small percentage of the market.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 04:22)

• COVID as an Accelerator:

  • “Covid was...huge accelerator in terms of streaming.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 05:16)
  • Brands pulled back from TV, opening linear and streaming inventory at lower costs. Tatari helped brands like Chime “test the waters” in TV at this key moment.
  • The market shifted from “95% linear and 5% streaming to much more of a healthy mix, call it 80/20. Obviously it’s accelerated from there.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 06:13)

• Linear Loyalism & Change:

  • Nick admits, “I kicked and screamed telling Tatari no, linear is the truth...I have a way that we do it...But I became a convert. My media mix shifted almost 50/50.” (Nick Fairbairn, 06:36)

4. Defining and Measuring ‘Performance TV’ (07:45–13:47)

• Expanded Definition of Performance:

  • Not just lower-funnel (ROAS, app installs), but “full funnel measurement...awareness moving...linkage all the way down to visits, enrollments, and primary accounts.” (Nick Fairbairn, 08:55)

• Funding Brand with Performance:

  • Chime found that by diversifying from walled gardens to TV, “we got more efficient and funded our way up the funnel to brand.” (Nick Fairbairn, 09:26)

• Brands’ Learning Curve on TV:

  • Many start TV with pure lower-funnel goals, but scaling TV requires moving up the funnel, accepting longer feedback cycles.
  • “Eventually you will hit that Dr. Valley of Death...and so that’s where we start to educate clients on this notion of going bigger.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 11:33)
  • Big moments and premium TV can be measured as performant, but over longer time horizons.

• Productizing the Journey:

  • Both Nick and Andy have applied lessons from Chime to help other startups “scaling this channel to show growth and legitimacy. It’s pretty special.” (Nick Fairbairn, 12:55)

5. Modern TV Buying: Linear vs. Streaming—Complexities & Differences (13:53–16:20)

• Complexity with CTV:

  • More options and data, but, “linear is so tried and true...Streaming is a little bit more stringent still to this day.” (Nick Fairbairn, 14:21)
  • CPMs often higher in streaming: “it gets cost prohibitive if I keep loading...traditionally some of the CPMs are higher on streaming...because it’s now more premium audiences” (Nick Fairbairn, 14:55)
  • Creative that works on linear “doesn’t always work on streaming” (Nick Fairbairn, 15:31)

• Buying Differences:

  • “While there’s...so much more data available to be more targeted, drives price. Price is already up and I can’t target exactly the same way in how I buy.” (Nick Fairbairn, 15:47)

6. Industry Needs: Attribution, Measurement, Workflows (15:53–19:44)

• Desire for the “Fantasy Dashboard”:

  • Unified, real-time, actionable measurement “dashboard where you just look at all of your television spending and look at the numbers and just like turn the knobs and everything works.” (Mike Shields, 16:05)
  • Nick says Tatari provides about “75% of what you pitched” (Nick Fairbairn, 16:22)
  • Andy highlights AI as next accelerator for TV campaign efficacy, but emphasizes that “a lot of it is there” already on their platform (Andy Schoenfeld, 16:37)

• The Enduring Value of Linear and Relationships:

  • Major live events (Yankees ALDS games, live sports) often bought last-minute at big discounts only on linear TV:
    • “We were able to buy it at a 75% discount off rate card....nine of those brands bought it the day of. You could only buy that on linear TV.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 18:42)

• Holistic Approaches Outperform Single-Channel Tactics:

  • “It’s going to be a combination of data, relationships and measurement.” (Nick Fairbairn, 19:32)

7. Targeting, Identity, and Attribution Limits (21:00–23:48)

• Fragmented Identity in TV and CTV:

  • “Identity sort of takes care of itself in TV...it’s not settled....I’d love your take, Andy, but my take from our brand is it’s sort of like split brained.” (Nick Fairbairn, 21:39)
  • Sophisticated data partnerships (“unified member id, anonymous id, partnership with Liveramp”) vs. TV’s practical targeting limitations—“creative is the new targeting.”

• The Myth of One-to-One Targeting:

  • “There is no such thing as this beautiful, perfect one to one....It’s a false truth to pay 2 to 3x a CPM to try to achieve.” (Nick Fairbairn, 22:34)

• Surveys, MMM, and Old-School Tactics Remain:

  • Blended measurements with media mix modeling, surveys to fill the gap where granular targeting/data falls short (Andy Schoenfeld, 22:59).

8. The Future: Interactive & Shoppable TV Ads + AI (23:48–27:15)

• Skepticism on Interactivity Today:

  • Low adoption so far for shoppable ads and QR codes: “even the incremental lift is very marginal. Like you’re on the margins and we haven’t seen it yet being a massive accelerant.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 24:19)

• Pause Ads and Dynamic Creative as Next Opportunities:

  • “I am very bullish on this notion of, like, dynamic AI creative....Maybe they’ll have a hundred [creatives] and they’ll be able to, in real time, optimize that across what network, publisher or piece of content.” (Andy Schoenfeld, 25:24)

• Real World Testing:

  • Nick relays a humorous story about trying out “send to your phone” features on Roku for fun, but notes: “The QR codes, we’ve tested it. Very low usage, but the people that do use it, crazy.” (Nick Fairbairn, 26:44)
  • Optimism: “I don’t want to sleep on it...there’s something that’s going to happen. I’m pretty sure.” (Nick Fairbairn, 27:05)

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “We were one of the first movers in sort of the quote unquote neobank category...using organic social and having fun in a category that does not have fun really helps build kind of a following.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (01:25)

• “If one of those two things stops working [digital channels], we’re screwed.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (02:10)

• “COVID was...a huge accelerator in terms of streaming. That’s where we started to see the market move the needle.”
  — Andy Schoenfeld (05:16)

• “I kicked and screamed telling Tatari no, linear is the truth...And I became a convert. My media mix shifted almost 50/50.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (06:36)

• “You have to be able to stomach two, three, four months of, I don't call it pain, but...eventually you will hit that point of diminishing returns on tv....But a funny thing happens...that is where you tap into the true power of tv. It’s where you can transform businesses.”
  — Andy Schoenfeld (11:37)

• “The way relationships work...when somebody drops out of a game and they call me and I’m the first person they call because I know I have a dollar amount put aside. And as this stuff all moves into streaming...I just don’t see all of it. I don’t think [programmatic] will ever be a 100% of how you do it.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (19:44)

• “Creative is the new targeting because the industry I’m in can’t get so precise. So I’d love to tell you how sophisticated and smart we are...The second part of my answer is I think creative and media targeting like when I was an old media planner is actually the new new.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (21:45)

• “The QR codes, we’ve tested it. Very low usage, but the people that do use it. Crazy.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (26:44)

• “I don’t want to sleep on it. There’s something...with device in hand and, and television on the wall...there’s something that’s going to happen. I’m pretty sure.”
  — Nick Fairbairn (27:05)

Key Timestamps for Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:46–04:22 | Chime’s launch, early marketing mix, and move towards TV | | 04:22–07:44 | COVID’s influence and the streaming boom | | 07:45–13:47 | Defining performance TV, full funnel measurement | | 13:53–16:20 | Comparing linear vs. streaming TV buying, new challenges | | 16:20–19:44 | Tech & workflow needs, industry gaps, lasting power of linear| | 21:00–23:48 | Identity, attribution, and limitations | | 23:48–27:15 | Future of shoppable / interactive ads, dynamic creative |

Final Takeaway

Performance marketing is indeed coming to TV, but it's a nuanced, evolving journey that requires blending digital and traditional mindsets, embracing new forms of measurement, and accepting complexity. Both Fairbairn and Schoenfeld see TV (linear and streaming) as offering unique, scalable growth opportunities for brands—but only if marketers are willing to experiment, embrace holistic strategies, and recognize the limitations (and potential) of current technology. The future holds promise for AI-driven creative and possibly true “shoppability,” but the human element and hybrid tactics still matter most.