← Next in Media
Next in Media
How Nick Fairbairn and Andy Schonfeld Are Bringing Performance Marketing to Television
00:27:41
Nick Farbank (VP Growth Marketing at Chime) and Andy Schofield (CRO at Tatari) discuss how performance brands can successfully scale on television. Chime shifted from spending 80% of its budget on Facebook and Google to developing a sophisticated TV strategy that treats the medium as a performance channel, not just brand awareness. The pandemic accelerated this shift when major advertisers exited, opening premium inventory at discounted rates. They explain how "performance TV" measures full-funnel impact from awareness to conversions using spike attribution and media mix modeling. Key insights include: linear TV still delivers strong results (especially live sports at 75% discounts); pure direct response eventually hits a "DR Valley of Death" requiring brand investment; creative and smart placement matter more than expensive precise targeting (which can cost 2-3x CPMs); and while shoppable/interactive TV shows promise, it remains marginal—the real opportunity is in AI-generated cre...
Loading summary
Transcript98 lines
- [00:00]
A
This week on Next Immediate, a special two guest episode. I spoke with Nick Fairbank, he's the VP of growth marketing at Chime, and Andy Schoenfeld, he's a CRO Atari. Chime is sort of a poster shot for a brand that was built on social and digital platforms. Think lots of meta that has looked to graduate to television, but still do all the great things a brand could do within the walled gardens, like targeting optimization and creative rotation. So it's been a pretty fascinating journey for Chime. As Atari trying to pull that off, we got into what's works, what hasn't, what's missing and whether performance TV is a real thing. Let's take it into. So let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields and I have two guests this week. We have Nick Fairbank, he's the VP of growth marketing at Chime, and Andy Schoenfeld, he's the CRO at Tatari. Hi guys. Thanks for being here.
- [00:43]
B
Hey, hey. Hey, Mike. How's it going? Thanks for having us.
- [00:47]
A
Great to talk to you both at a very interesting time in our industry. We, we kind of were talking before we started up about performance TV and this category is super interesting. But Nick, I want to, I want to maybe start with you because I think, I think people are fascinated by. Everyone wants to know what's going to happen, are more brands going to come to TV that were not big TV advertisers, how are, if they can they get the data, the metrics they want, all those kind of things. But let's, so let's maybe go back a little bit. Like what is Chime's historic media mix been like? I think of you as a born on social search doctor company, but I may be a little wrong there.
- [01:26]
C
Yeah, no, I think, I think you're like, what you're picking up on is how we started. I think, you know, we were one of the first movers in sort of the quote unquote neobank category over 10 years ago. And you know, I think providing access to banking solutions to folks that didn't have it was a big play. Using organic social and having kind of a voice and having fun in a category that does not have fun really helps build kind of a following. But you know, look, as we were a startup, we would raise money and pump it right back into the walled gardens in exactly where you think it would be. Right in.
- [01:58]
A
Yeah, the kind of the classic DTC tale of the last decade.
- [02:01]
C
Right, right. And you know, of course, 80 of your spend is in those two places and it's working amazing and your company is growing. But if one of those two things stops working, you know, we're screwed or.
- [02:12]
A
They get more expensive or things change. What do. Yeah, you gotta.
- [02:15]
B
Yep.
- [02:15]
C
And so what I've always done as a, as a growth marketer is bring a portfolio approach to kind of your acquisition strategy. Right. And TV has been near and dear to my heart or whatever you want to call it, CTV tv, Connected tv since I was a kid in media and I used it as a reach and frequency play but I really now, over the last 10, 15 years have used it as a performance meets brand vehicle. And so at Chime, it wasn't in the mix until we met Tatari. Um, what. What would you say, Andy?
- [02:43]
B
How long?
- [02:43]
C
Five, six years ago? When. When did we start?
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, I think it was around 20, 19 ish. Yeah, sounds about right.
- [02:49]
A
And are at that point, are you. Are you. I think the. Again, I'm stereotyping the DTC category. The thinking is often TV is great, but it's. Maybe it's expensive, maybe it's hard to get the inventory I want and I can't do the mixing and mashing and optimization I'm used to on Instagram or whatever. So it's going to leave me wanting. Is that kind of what the perception was at the time or not really?
- [03:14]
C
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think a lot of unknown and false precision in some of those digital channels. Right. Just because we can see it. We think that's the truth. Right, right. And so there was a barrier to entry for most brands. Right. I've taken a lot of brands on on tv, even with Tatari as a consultant over the years. That's the first for the. One of the first barriers is it's going to be too expensive. I'm not going to have the money to make a spot. I'm not going to have the money on a monthly basis or my budgets aren't big enough to play in this space. Right, right. And so. No, but you know, as we get into this discussion today, you'll probably hear we run it like it's meta to start.
- [03:47]
B
Right.
- [03:47]
C
And then we evolve and grow and we can kind of measure a full funnel approach. Right. But we didn't get there overnight. It started with executing it very precision performance like a digital campaign, starting to grow the aperture and the share of budget over time.
- [04:01]
A
All right, definitely want to ask you about that. But, but hold that thought, Andy. Take us to that. That's not that long Ago, but in like CTV years, that is a long time ago. Because the C there, you know, there was only so much. There's way more talk about performance television now, but there's. There was only so much inventory available then. What, like what, what's the state of affairs at the moment when you start?
- [04:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think Chime, like many of our earlier clients that grew with Atari, it was really actually more linear focus. We actually started as a linear company. You're talking about 2016 days, right, when streaming was a very small percentage of the market. And so what we were able to do with Chime and others, right, was take brands at small doses onto TV and be able to drive it, just like Meta and how they think about these other channels from an incrementality and attribution standpoint. Right. And the more that they see the performance actually working, whether it was through our data or their own internal data, whether it's surveys or third party vendors or Nick could definitely talk a lot about, they're willing to continue to invest in the channel. And so streaming was a smaller portion, both for Chime, but for other clients around that 2019 period, I would say the largest accelerant we saw, not surprising, was Covid.
- [05:17]
C
Right.
- [05:17]
B
What we saw during COVID was a few different things were happening all at once. You had major brands in the traditional Fortune 500 when you're out of the market, right. If you were Carnival Cruises or restaurants, like you just, yeah.
- [05:31]
A
Opening things up all of a sudden.
- [05:33]
B
And so two things were happening. There was an opening of inventory both on streaming and linear. Right. And there also was a pricing opportunity because these networks, right, whether large networks like Disney or Fox, etc, had to replace those advertisers, right, with something. And so Atari, given our technology, where we sat in the market, we're able to capitalize on that. And we were able to say, okay, there's big fire sales, whether it's on tent pole moments, late night shows, right. Or even live sports that were happening in very strange ways at the time. But we were able to take brands like Jaime and others that normally were not advertising in, in this capacity on TV and test the waters, right. We were able to understand what worked, what didn't work, what price we needed to pay, gave them confidence. And so Covid was, like I said, huge accelerator in terms of streaming. That's where we started to see it move the needle from, you know, maybe it's 95% linear and 5% streaming to much more of a more healthy mix. Call it 8020. Obviously it's accelerated from there.
- [06:35]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:36]
C
I don't know if you remember Andy, but I'm kicking and screaming telling Tatari no linear is the truth and the reach and frequency. And I have a way that we do it. You have tier one stuff for reach and then I've got tier three nets for frequency and I have a portfolio on how I hit my numbers. Right.
- [06:52]
A
So you were anti streaming. There's you're, you're, you're linear linear purist at that time. That's funny.
- [06:57]
B
Yeah.
- [06:57]
C
I grew up a TV buyer when I was 22 and I was like, no dude. And you know, I became a convert. My media mix shifted almost 50, 50 right before just the incremental reach wasn't there and it was too early days and you know, it felt a little bit like online video inventory or kind of the leftovers. Right. And you know, first time program or like appointment viewing was still a big thing on linear. And so as the industry had to catch up, I caught up because the eyeballs were there and because the, the cost got there. To Andy's point, it was prohibitive before because they didn't have enough eyeballs. Therefore that inventory was really, really expensive and cost prohibited. Cost prohibitive if you wanted to run it in a performance fashion.
- [07:45]
B
Right.
- [07:45]
A
You now, you guys, I know this has evolved over time. You keep meant using the return performance and things like incremental reach. What. Take me back to maybe when you start. Because I think, I think people think of performance as like you know, pure roas. Like I saw this ad, I downloaded something immediately, I became a customer like the Instagram magic tv. That certainly wasn't possible or mostly didn't seem possible then. Are you talking, when you say performance, you talking about like data driven linear. You're talking about like incremental reach. Are you talking about some different definitions that have changed over time?
- [08:21]
C
Yeah, all the things. And Andy can jump in too, but I'll give my take. I think there's a misnomer in, in kind of our business that there's brand dollars that are not accountable to drive business impacts as it relates to revenue and then everything else.
- [08:34]
B
Right.
- [08:34]
C
So even me at Chime, I partner with my awesome VP of brand and we talk a lot about tentpool brand upfront dollars that we work with Tatari on. And those have a role to play in our framework around positioning Chime and creating that awareness and starting to fill that funnel. Then you have 80, 90% of the dollars that are sort of mid funnel. What we call doctor so that's what I call performance. Right.
- [08:55]
A
Okay.
- [08:55]
C
And measuring response rate, site visits. We're looking at kind of spike attribution on an airing with Tatari and some of the way that their technology works in measurement and then tying it back over to sort of the other equities attributes. So I'm talking full funnel measurement, but to meaning is awareness moving. Are the attributes that I'm putting in my television spots moving and linkage all the way down to like visits, enrollments and primary accounts. The way we started all that stuff, we had to win our way up the funnel. We got lucky. Right?
- [09:26]
A
Right.
- [09:26]
C
When I, my CMO came in, we were so inefficient with our dollars paying for the walled gardens. As we opened up our portfolio of media channels, we got more efficient and funded our way up the funnel to brand.
- [09:39]
A
That's, that's counterintuitive. I think people would think you're so efficient on the wall gardens and it's going to be, you're going to be blowing, blowing money on branding in the beginning and that and that that was the opposite.
- [09:47]
C
Yeah. It's like the Dr. Valley of Death. Right. You can only squeeze so much of that demand if you don't create it. Right.
- [09:53]
A
Right. Okay. So Andy, what does that look like for this partnership? But also maybe, maybe like a lot of other brands is it or they have to kind of redefine performance at the beginning and find new attributes as it evolved over time.
- [10:08]
B
It definitely evolved and it's definitely very nuanced by customer, by even the sort of segment that you are where you are within your journey of tv. But unlike Chime or others, many brands that Nick has consulted for, as he mentioned, most of them. Right. Will start from a pure lower funnel perspective. It's just who you are. It's how you think about it. It's down funnel. Usually it's. You kind of mentioned a few things, right. Like an app install, but usually it's even deeper than that. It's a conversion whether it's a sale for an E commerce brand or an apparel brand or fintech. Right. It's more looking at LTV lifetime value, these deep funnel metrics and then looking at it down to an individual network level. Right. Program level, rotation level on the linear side, streaming. Right. You're looking at things like genre, of course, you're looking at programmatic versus direct and understanding very micro how to actually optimize within those barriers. Then what happens is, and most brands will follow a similar journey is you have success. Right. And you want to be able to start doubling down on what's worked.
- [11:17]
A
Right.
- [11:18]
B
And you could do that to a degree of, call it directionally, 10 to 15 million dollars a year on TV advertising. Right. You could just think about lower funnel and CAC and it will work. Eventually you will hit that Dr. Valley of Death as Nick. I love that Vineet.
- [11:34]
A
That's a great movie by the way, dear Valley Death.
- [11:37]
B
Check that one out. Yeah, but eventually you will hit that point of sort of like diminishing returns on tv. Right. You can only squeeze so much juice out of it. And so that's where you have to, where we start to educate clients on this notion of going bigger. Right. And that looks like premium airings, live sports sponsorships, things that are more expensive, that are traditionally thought of as more branding in nature, but they can be measured as performant. They just have to be measured differently and over a longer time horizon. And I think the challenge we run into with a lot of brands is they get caught up there. Right. It's like there's that period where you have to be able to stomach two, three, four months of, I don't call it pain, but it's just you have to be able to be a step back and say, okay, we're going to commit to this, we're going to buy a certain way. But a funny thing happens to the brands that do it, and I'm sure Nick has a lot of thoughts about this, is that is where you tap into the true power of tv. It's where you can transform businesses. We've seen it at Tatari where clients have gone public on the heels of TV because they've bought into the long term journey of success. They've been acquired. Right. Like TV truly can define a category and move business like no other channel can. In my opinion, of course I'm biased, but it takes a certain level of commitment. But if you can get to that level, it's, it's a beautiful thing that could happen. So Nick, I love your thoughts on.
- [12:55]
C
This, but I mean, to Andy's point, over the years there's been multiple times that Tatari and I have helped small startups with their Series B, Series C. Through scaling this channel to show growth and legitimacy. It's pretty special.
- [13:10]
A
So you're productizing your own journey a little bit. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're applying it to others.
- [13:15]
C
Yeah, of course, I, I, I'd say the one thing really important for everyone to remember is just because it's a Sexy kind of idea of television versus meta or Google. You gotta work just as hard to unlock it. Just like Andy was saying, right. It's not gonna work at first. You cast a wide net, pull it.
- [13:33]
A
In, you find some stuff's not gonna work and you're gonna, you gotta learn from that.
- [13:38]
C
Your creatives, right. You gotta test multiple creatives. So just like you would do in meta, set up a campaign search targeting params. Feed all the different creatives. Same, same.
- [13:47]
B
Right.
- [13:48]
C
Get to that 15 mil happy spot, kind of a doctor before it goes to diminishing return.
- [13:54]
A
Okay, so fast forward to today. You know, things are humming, things are. It sounds like you're in a much different place. The market has a lot more options. Like there's far more CTP inventory. Right. There's a lot. All these different quote unquote like self serve performance platforms. Everybody's got a data graph id. So is it seemingly that's better but is is it the complexity could make it harder. So better or worse right now in terms of your ability to do what.
- [14:22]
C
You'D like to do, I'd say for me better but also challenging because linear is so tried and true and had been so established. Pricing is very clear on how they monetize, how day parts work, how I can purchase, how I can get fire sales, how all the inventory works. Streaming is a little bit more stringent still to this day, but you would think that would be the opposite. You're like but connected TV and you can feed it third party Thursday.
- [14:53]
A
Yeah, that's going to be perfect.
- [14:55]
C
It gets cost prohibitive if I keep loading. And then traditionally some of the CPMs are higher on streaming, right. Because it's now more premium audiences and eyeballs versus linear in some cases with some networks. And so you know, as soon as we start to get more and more into it and allocating more budget, you have to be really thoughtful about. I can't do it the same way I do linear. They don't let you shows. They. You have to do more ros. You have to be more thoughtful. So we struggle. It would be so much easier if I could just say this is my TV approach. Almost have to take your streaming approach. And the creative that works on my linear doesn't always work on stream.
- [15:30]
A
It's not one thing.
- [15:31]
C
Yeah, that can't run 15s on streaming you can but you play it like a 30. You don't in linear there's all these nuances that while there's a misconception, there's so much more data Available to be more targeted drives. Price. Price is already up and I can't target exactly the same way in how I buy, which actually from a doctor perspective is limiting. Does that make sense?
- [15:54]
A
It does. Either of you can answer this. What would be, other than to target, be the answer to everything? What would. What's missing here? Like, what would you like? You know, I think. I think the. Like you mentioned, there's like the fantasy dashboard where you just look at all of your television spending and look at the numbers and just like turn the knobs and everything works. It seems like we're far from that. Like, what are we missing as an industry in terms of attribution or workflow or whatever?
- [16:20]
B
Like what?
- [16:21]
A
What do you want?
- [16:22]
C
I don't know. If that dashboard you pitched is a fantasy, I'd say you got a 75% of what you pitched in our Tatari workflow right now. What would you say, Andy? Am I full of it or do you agree?
- [16:34]
A
He's gonna say a hundred.
- [16:38]
B
Listen, I agree, obviously we're seeing the world accelerate with things like AI, and I think that's only going to bring more opportunity for brands like Chime and others to leverage that capability, particularly in many platforms, hopefully ours. Right. Whether that's creative or content, things of that nature. So look, we're constantly evolving. But. But I do agree a lot of it is there. That's a huge differentiation, obviously, for Tatari and what we do, because we talked a lot about Linear, which I just think the industry forgets a lot about. Right. Still, in this world, of course, it's a decline. Nobody has their head in the sand. It's a declining medium, but that's declining very slowly. You still have about 50% of viewership. That's sort of happening on Linear. And if you take out streaming ad, subscription, sorry, ad free.
- [17:34]
A
Yeah.
- [17:35]
B
You're somewhere around 50.
- [17:37]
A
Right, right.
- [17:38]
B
Viewership on money. And what's driving that? A lot of it is big moments. Right. It's live sports, it's Dancing with the Stars, you know, finales and things of that nature that people are watching their. Their big moments that the reality is you can't buy in a dsp. Right. One of the things I talk a lot about, this is such a good example. Recent, we had nine brands buy into the Yankees ALDS game four against Toronto Blue Jays. There was 5 million viewers, roughly. We were able to buy it at a 75% discount off rate card. And we all, nine of those brands bought it the day of. Wow. You could only buy that on linear tv. Right. So even my household, which I've cut the cord, I watch on Hulu primarily live, the ads I'm watching are actually bought through a linear feed. So either you're buying them in advance in the up, right, or you're actually taking advantage using a platform in real time. And the performance from those spots are incredible. Right. We see that with college football, we see that with the NBA. But I think a lot of the industry is still missing and a lot of the platforms are still missing a huge component there, which is if you're just buying programmatic tv, and you should be, but you're just buying, you know, a programmatic spot in real time on Hulu or some other fast channel, you're.
- [18:56]
A
Closing yourself off to a lot of.
- [18:57]
B
Stuff, a huge portion of what TV is. We're still a ways away from a lot of the industry understanding that.
- [19:03]
C
Yeah, Y. I have so many hot takes on this topic. If you go to a vendor like a CTV vendor like Mountain, they're great. Right. But it's a little slice and it's not going to be holistic. Right. And I have a strong opinion because I grew up a TV buyer that was. Had relationships. I worked at an agency when I was a kid. Those relationships are never going to go away. I think programmatic CTV is smart, yes, But I don't think it'll ever be a hundred percent of how you do it.
- [19:32]
B
Right.
- [19:33]
C
It's going to be a combination of data relationships and measurement.
- [19:37]
A
So you don't think there's like a future where the AI just like takes over and you know, you know, you don't really. You don't need all these people do all this stuff.
- [19:45]
C
I mean, that would be fantastic. And maybe that will happen 10 years. But you know, the way relationships work. When they call Andy, when somebody drops out of a game and they me and I'm the first person they call because I know I have a dollar amount put aside. And as this stuff all moves talk into streaming places programmatically, I just don't see all of it. All 100%. Do I think there's a role for programmatic? Absolutely. But I guess my dual point is as a brand, if I go to one of those kind of, you know, online video slash CTV providers, there's many of them you probably can start in a new well. But there's going to be diminishing returns. If you look at it in a silo like that, you got to zoom out and think about it. And even the way I'm working holistically with my media mix Tatari and the way we work with them with attribution and their dashboard is phenomenal. It's the foundation. But I also have a media mix modeling tool that I'm feeding and chirping and looking at the total ecosystem my media spend to help validate how I move money up the funnel versus sort of just the Dr. Linear tier 3 network with high frequency so I can learn how to deploy dollars differently. My MMM is actually telling me I'm overexposed in the doctor stuff that I think I'm subsidizing my top of the funnel stuff with but it's sort of false truth.
- [21:01]
A
Interesting. Yeah, yeah. This might be unique to your brand in this situation. How much do you guys care? You know like when you, when you are big on, on Meta for example or Google Identity sort of takes care of itself in tv it's a, it's fragmented, it's not, it's not display where you're getting rid of cookies and trying to figure something out but it's, it's kind of, I don't know, all over the place is strong but it's, it's not settled and I don't know if it will be. Does it matter to you or do you desire a single identifier? Would that help? Is it always going to be a patchwork approach considering the TV is you know, co viewing off a lot of times anyway?
- [21:40]
C
Yeah, I'd love your take too Andy, but my take from our brand is it's sort of like split brained. Yeah. I've got a unified member id, anonymous id. I've got a partnership with Liveramp. I'm looking at people coming in and looking at their pathing so I can customize how they enroll and how they onboard with me based on their income, intent and the signals they've given me. Super sweet, right? But then you think about the targeting params and some of these digital walled gardens these days like creative is the new targeting because the industry I'm in can't get so precise. So I'd love to tell you how sophisticated and smart we are which was the first part. The second part of my answer is I think creative and media targeting like when I was an old media planner is actually the new new. And so I think there is no such thing as this beautiful, perfect one to one. And I think when CTV first started, when I was like 15 years ago, 10 years ago, there was this promise of connected device household one to one and that's still there but it's Always been cost prohibitive and it's still sort of it. And I don't even know if it's the. It's a false truth to pay 2 to 3x a CPM to try to achieve.
- [22:49]
B
You know what I mean?
- [22:50]
C
These are like.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah.
- [22:51]
C
Going a little bit broader in how you think about targeting using creative and media is sort of the new, new. Andy, tell me if you disagree.
- [22:59]
B
No, yeah, I mean I would agree obviously as a TV specific platform we're obviously in an ideal world we'd see everything but we're only seeing what's obviously happening on the TV screen. So you know, I think a lot of it happens upstream of us but the, the more data that both we can bring into our platform and that we can push out to folks like Nick and be agnostic. Right. Whether it's through server to server integrations or S3 data, the better. But the reality is you can't measure it all and even Nick is limited in what he can get from certain social platforms. So you have to rely on other means like media mix modeling and surveys and things of that nature which, you know, our older means of measurement but still work.
- [23:48]
A
Last one for me, I think here are you. You know, we're talking about trying to make TV far more of a performance vehicle. I guess the ultimate would be if you ex, you know, if you clicked on an ad and bought stuffing. And we're seeing a lot more, a lot of attempts at trying to make that a reality. It's not going to work for every brand or category, I don't think. But are you either you bullish on interactive ads, shoppable ads, that kind of thing? Is it still in its embassy? What do you, what are you thinking?
- [24:15]
C
You go first because I don't want to sway my hot take.
- [24:20]
B
So I would just say, you know, Tatari sits on top of, you know, 400 plus brands that are running performing TV70 agencies. It's still a marginal adoption in terms of people. I mean people are testing it and what we've seen generally with things like QR codes is even the incremental lift is very marginal. Like you're on the margins and we haven't seen it yet. Being a massive accelerate to the business. I do think I'm bullet on pause ads. I think that's going to open up an entire new category of ads and real estate that hasn't been utilized. And so I'm excited about that. But I still think we're in early days. The other thing, I mean, I recently, this weekend tested the new Amazon remote ad. I don't know if either of you.
- [25:08]
A
I've seen it. I've not tried it.
- [25:09]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. Although it didn't work as well as I thought it would. I added something to my cart and I asked my wife, did it end up in your cart? She said, no, it wasn't in mine. So, you know, I think there's still some kinks to be working there. But, you know, I think we're still very early days. I do think it's going to accelerate and I think it's interesting as more larger entrants move into the market and acquire performance tv, I'm sure that someone's going to tie it together and do it well, but I don't think we're there yet. I am very bullish on this notion of, like, dynamic AI creative. Right. So no longer will a client have two creatives. Maybe they'll have a hundred. Right. And they'll be able to, in real time, optimize that across what network, publisher or piece of content that they're running in. And so that makes sense. It'll be interesting to see. I'm curious, Nick. Sway me a little bit.
- [26:01]
C
I'm bullish too, on that. Think of, you know, I have a endemic MLS ad and I can run a, you know, a local version of it in each of the 30 markets with just AI. And what I'm worried about is, like, the trafficking capabilities and like the networks and all that. But I think it'll get there. Yeah, look, the, you know, send a phone, the QR codes, all that stuff. Like, I think we're, we're at the point in the industry where it's sort of. I use it to kind of play and have fun.
- [26:28]
B
Right.
- [26:28]
C
I was at a buddy's house, lives up in, you know, about an hour and a half away from me. He's got a Roku device, a Roku hardware device, and it was like, send to your phone. And so I just spammed him for fun. Every ad, he's like, what the hell are you doing, dude?
- [26:43]
B
Right.
- [26:44]
C
The QR codes, we've tested it. Very low usage, but the people that do use it. Crazy.
- [26:51]
A
You just ruined somebody's performance numbers.
- [26:55]
C
Don't click on my brand ad, mom. Right. You're gonna cost me money with Google. What I will say, though, is I don't want to sleep on it. There's something baking that's interesting with device in hand and, and television on the wall and all that stuff. So I don't, I don't want to naysay it, but it's not there yet. But there's something. There's something that's going to happen. I. I'm pretty sure.
- [27:15]
A
All right. Well, this was super interesting stuff, guys. Terrific conversation. Thanks for taking the time out. And let's. Let's chat again down the road.
- [27:22]
B
Absolutely. Thanks for having us, Mike. Fun. Yeah.
- [27:24]
C
Thanks, Mike.
- [27:24]
B
See you.
- [27:25]
A
A big thanks to my guest this week, Nick Fairbain of Chime and Andy Schoenfeld from Tatari and of course, my partners at Savio and Elemental tv. You like this episode? Please take a moment to rate leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's next in media. Thanks for listening.