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Next in Media
How to Monetize Arguments - Without Getting Cancelled
00:23:31
Jubilee Media founder and CEO Jason Y. Lee joins the podcast to break down how the digital-first studio builds scalable, format-driven unscripted content, navigates brand partnerships on hot-button topics, and bridges the gap between YouTube and traditional Hollywood.
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- [00:00]
A
I mean, I think what sets Jubilee apart is that we are creating space for real human conversation and real humans to show up. And as a result, of course, very naturally, like people are going to disagree with certain guests, certain perspectives. But I think in a lot of ways our goal is not to validate or say, hey, you need to think this way or that way. We are really someone who wants to reflect the way people are thinking and interacting and that's what makes us really, really popular.
- [00:27]
B
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- [01:42]
C
are important, and where the creators have to nail every single new platform. Let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Jason Wy Lee. He is the CEO and founder of Jubilee. Hey Jason, thanks for being here.
- [01:54]
A
Who's course thanks for having me. Mike.
- [01:55]
C
Excited to talk to you. I think a lot of people in my audience will know you in Jubilee, but not everybody. It's probably good that if you could maybe just give us a little bit about your background or what Jubilee is all about maybe.
- [02:08]
A
Of course, yeah. We say that Jubilee, we exist to provoke human conversation. We are one of the biggest digital first studios on YouTube, creating some of the biggest formats. Everything from Odd One Out, Spectrum, Middle ground surrounded. We also have a sister channel called Nectar, where we do a lot of the most viral formats around. Love and dating as well. Yeah. But it's exciting to be here.
- [02:29]
C
I feel like you're definitely underselling some of the. Some of the nature of the content. It. It ranges, like you said, dating to debate all kinds of things, but you're not afraid to. It's funny because we were, we were at the. An event last yesterday where Instagram was talking about how they want to have. Be like, really positive and you're, you're. Some of your stuff is. That's not negative, but you definitely are not afraid to stir things up.
- [02:51]
A
Yeah. I think that what we are really good at at Jubilee is creating unscripted formats or spaces where kind of unexpected conversations can happen. So sometimes they can be difficult, sometimes they can be love, sometimes they can be really entertaining. But I think that's why people, particularly young people, are gravitating towards Jubilee, because there's so much authenticity, rawness, humanity in the content we create. And I think it's something that we need way more, especially as we feel like, you know, the world feels like it's becoming more and more fragmented and algorithms are like, dictating and pushing us into different parts of the Internet.
- [03:26]
C
Right. Things feel out of control and things like that. Let's. I want to talk about some of them. Like, just the mechanics of building your business. Like, what was it like when you started. If you live the YouTube creator life, you're going to live through algorithm changes and rule changes and how organic gets judged versus paid. It's hard, probably hard to sum all that up, but what's been, like, the big changes that you've kind of ridden and pivoted into or out of.
- [03:52]
A
Yeah. I started Jubilee in 2017, so I feel like in Internet years or dog years, I've lived five or six different iterations almost. We've seen so much. And I think one thing that makes Jubilee distinct in a lot of ways is that, you know, while I'm the founder CEO, a lot of people who are huge fans of Jubilee may not even be familiar with. Who, Me. Right. So that's something that's very.
- [04:15]
C
You're not the only face of it.
- [04:16]
A
Exactly. And I'm very frequently not in the. In the content. Majority of the content, I'm not in it. Whereas a lot of the biggest YouTube creators or biggest digital first creators, Mr. Beast or speed or whoever it is, you know, their face, and they're in all of the content. I think that's something that sets us apart.
- [04:32]
C
They got to figure out how to expand that roster later.
- [04:34]
A
And we really thought of ourselves. You know, I wanted to build Jubilee as a studio where we thought about IP and, and formats. And I think it's not easy to create one format or viral format that can get a hundred episodes. But what Jubilee and what we've been really good at doing is we've created. We've created dozens of formats. And that's what's led to like, the longevity of what we do.
- [04:58]
C
What made. Cause it's interesting, I think there was a time where our creators were like, I don't wanna say anti format, but it was like, let's be freeform. And it's. This is a. There are no there. We don't have the rules of television. Why would we do that? But that has. That has proven to be really valuable to a lot of franchises.
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B
What.
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C
What made you say, like, we need to have repeatable structure and predictability a little bit our programming?
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, just to be honest, when I first started the channel and first started doing content, I was in a lot of our content. And I just very quickly found like, man, this is going to be incredibly time consuming and stressful. And also I was like, maybe I'm not the best talent. Like, maybe that's not my place. And then additionally, it was this kind of idea of if we come up with the right type of formats and shows, this is something that's far more scalable beyond me. Right. There's no more Keyman Risk. It's something that we can do now, you know, with Middle Ground. We've done hundreds of episodes of Middle Ground. It's not, hey, we have to come up with now a new show, new video idea every week. It's now, what's a different episode? So kind of like changing that. But it's much more difficult to build a media company or IP than it is to introduce one character on the Internet. For sure, in that way, that kind of rise in the growth of Jubilee was a little bit different than a lot of other creators.
- [06:16]
C
And it's funny because I don't know if you saw it coming with how big YouTube was going to get on connected television, but your stuff seems to really lend itself to that. But did you. Did you feel like that was gonna be an inevitable thing or did you. Have you. Have you had to change up what you do now that so many people consume on a tv?
- [06:35]
A
I'd like to say that I, you know, I was. We forecasted that and we were just able to see it into the future. But I think to some degree what I always believed was that YouTube was always just the front edge of culture. And when you are the front edge of culture, you're attracting the best storytellers, the best creators, the best type of content and the best studios. And we were one of the few who were just YouTube first. But given that now that YouTube is playing such a big part on television, connected television, it's interesting because I think we're well, really well situated for it given that like the switch to 4K for us was very easy. You know, a common episode of Surrounded will be over an hour and a half and you know, people will say, oh yeah, on YouTube, young people can't pay attention. They have like really short attention.
- [07:19]
C
You gotta grab in three seconds or you're doomed.
- [07:21]
A
Exactly. But we find that like our average view duration for those videos are over 40, 40 minutes. So we know that people are watching this, you know, long, long chunks of time there and they're watching multiple videos and they're watching follow up videos and they're learning. So it's something that we're pretty excited about. The fact that YouTube has grown so much and I think it will just like it speaks volumes to where we're going to go to next.
- [07:45]
C
Yeah, I want to go back to where you're going next. But have you felt like, I think every, every creator and you're, you're really more of a studio like you said, is different but YouTube is obviously the, is miles away from a lot of platforms in terms of monetization. But do you feel like you have to be in every platform and master them all? Do all your formats work everywhere? What's the, what's that look like for you?
- [08:08]
A
I would call us YouTube first. And what I mean by that is we are on every platform but typically what works on YouTube will work on other platforms. That's not always the case, vice versa. So for example, if someone's really really big on Instagram or really, really big on TikTok, they're not able to necessarily find a way for them to create longer form content. Whereas we specifically develop IP and shows that work long form, hour, 45 minutes, hour minute, you know, 45 minutes. But can also work really, really well short form. And that's one of the reasons I think we're really successful.
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C
It's easier to go one way versus the other, I think.
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A
So I think that's right.
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C
That makes sense. I'm jumping around a little bit here, but I want to come back to your thought with our like advertiser market, digital advertising lens here you emphasize, like you said you have. You talk about stuff like empathy, positive issues, but definitely hot button topics. How does that help hurt you? Because some brands won't even, like, touch news. They're like, I don't want to touch anything that's going to freak anybody out. Has that made your life difficult with trying to do brand partnerships? Do you not rely on brand partnerships so much? Like, what does that look like for you?
- [09:15]
A
Yeah, I think it's a great question. I mean, I think what sets Jubilee apart is that we are creating space for real human conversation and real humans that show up. And as a result, of course, very naturally, like, people are going to disagree with certain guests, certain perspectives. But I think in a lot of ways, our goal is not to validate or say, hey, you need to think this way or that way. We are really someone who wants to reflect the way people are thinking and interacting, and that's what makes us really, really popular. But given so a lot of the partners and the brands. Sorry, the partners and the brands that want to work with us recognize that that's what young people are looking for too, and they want to appear, you know, and with us, because it feels more honest, more unscripted, more fresh than traditional media. And that's one of the reasons why, like, we have some of the best partners out there.
- [10:01]
C
Do you have some good examples of things that have worked?
- [10:04]
A
Yeah. We recently just went to Coachella with Bulldog for Nectar, where they're doing dating. We did something with Netflix with the launch of Bridgerton.
- [10:14]
C
Okay.
- [10:14]
A
So one of the things that we always talk to our brand partners about is we have existing shows ip, like, let's not have to come up with a whole new video that may or may not work. We have this show that will get a million views.
- [10:26]
B
That's hard.
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C
That's hard, right? A blank page. Start all over.
- [10:29]
A
Exactly. It's kind of exactly. Start from scratch. And, you know, it's so difficult to nail that. Whereas we have a show that's had dozens of episodes, averages a million views now, everyone who's dating is wearing Bridgerton clothing. Like, we know that that will work. And some. And people will be really interested in watching Bridgerton on Netflix as a result. So this is kind of like a win, win, win. And we're able to do that across the board from, you know, Netflix to Bulldog. We've done something, you know, with. We have a show called Nectar House. We've done stuff with Vacation, for example, as we think about, like, Sunscreen and like they're all in the sun, you know, this is natural extensions of things that are going to work anyways.
- [11:08]
C
Do you find that either, either your company or like others in the space that you talk to? Like I think I feel like brands are kind of all over the place but they, they often say, well, I want you to make a perfect ad for me almost creator. And that. But in your, but in your voice, don't worry. And I, I would think that's just hard to repeat, hard to get started. Is that, but is that something common you common ask?
- [11:30]
A
Yeah. The way I kind of describe a lot of people think about it as a linear line. On one end it's like how impactful will it be for the brand? On the other line it's how much viewership or how much rurality will it get. I think what jubilee, what we're particularly good at is making this into like a Y and X axis and thinking about like the top right corner.
- [11:49]
C
Right.
- [11:50]
A
And achieving both. Like we can make the perfect brand spot for you, but if no one watches, it doesn't matter. Or we can make incredibly viral but like your name shows up for two seconds and does that matter? What we are really, really good at is driving something home that resonates with viewers but also making sure that it's reaching a very, very, very wide audience.
- [12:10]
C
Does it, does it help you or this may not be like YouTube is definitely seems like they're getting more involved in trying to make it easy for brands to find creators. You guys are big, so maybe it's not as big an issue. But is that good that they're sort of channeling this or is that like can that get in the way?
- [12:28]
A
No, I think it's great. I mean I think that like, you know, YouTube started having upfronts, for example. I think that that was like a really big sign of things to come. It's making brands take digital, not just YouTube, but just digital spend much more seriously and frankly like allocate way more time, money and effort into what is getting way more traction than these kind of like traditional linear spends. So we feel like this is like, we feel like man, we still have yet to see really the proportioning of like spend in the right spots. But yeah, YouTube has always just been a very, very creator first platform that we, I've always appreciated for that reason.
- [13:09]
C
Do you guys want to be have your own like is it crazy to say you're going to have your own
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B
upfront at some point?
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C
Is that something you're already tinkering with.
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A
Yeah, it's something that we've discussed. Yeah. So you're like on the right track and certainly being a part of YouTube's but our own we have so much programming where we're putting out the three videos a week, hundreds of hours of content all the time. So I think that's something that we're going to naturally work our way towards. And yeah, we're excited to like have those conversations.
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C
This may be getting really in the weeds, but this, you and I are both at this scalable conference this past week and one of the issues that came up was, you know, you mentioned that brands are still not spending with like relative in proportion to the audience that's there and generally speaking. But one of the things that you're seeing is that they're boosting creator content more than they're investing in it. Is that something you're finding and is that a good or bad thing?
- [14:04]
A
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean I think in theory that would be good for creators, but I think that's a short term perspective. Like I think. And the reason is because I think that you're not taking into account the full value of what makes a creator great. And I think that in some ways I would also make a distinction between creators and influencers too. When I think about creators, particularly on YouTube where the form is longer, it's very, very difficult to build audience and get a lot of viewership and view duration on YouTube because you're having to sustain such a longer kind of attention span obviously. So the folks who are able to do that, well, I think that you're under leveraging them. If you're thinking of them solely as an influencer, that's like, well, we've got Jason's face against this water bottle.
- [14:50]
C
Take a picture of me with a can of Coke or whatever.
- [14:52]
A
Which is what can work often with influencers. But I think to some degree with creators I would pivot that thinking slightly differently. So I think it's all going to happen. But yeah, I think it's like maybe a step towards the right direction.
- [15:07]
C
How this is, I think in this universe again I really hard to generalize so many creators from different kinds of. It seemed like for a while they these folks wanted to graduate and get a big Hollywood deal, streaming deal. Then that kind of changed. More recently you're seeing a lot of, you know, Netflix coming along trying to grab creator deals. Hollywood is all of a sudden really serious about this universe. How much do you think about that or your brethren? Like is That a legitimize legitimizer or not or something that aspire to.
- [15:37]
A
Yeah, it's really interesting because even like five years ago, a lot of the creators or a lot of creatives coming out of school would come to Jubilee and say, oh, but one day I want to go work in Hollywood. Right? One day. This is like a stepping stone. And now we've seen that kind of completely flip on its head where it's like, no, this is where I want to create because I think it's the best content, it's the fastest and I know that I can create without gatekeepers. So I think even this idea of graduating is starting to get flipped on its head to some degree.
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C
But that's interesting.
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A
But also what we're finding is that we're getting a lot of interest from traditional media companies too. So yes, we would like to partner and work, sure with Hollywood or with the Netflixes of the world. But a lot of them are also coming to us to figure out how they can collaborate with us, where we are at. And you're going to see so many different examples of that. And we're going to be announcing some new partnerships later this year because you
- [16:27]
C
have a lot of, I don't want to like, you almost have like the YouTube version of reruns. Like you have a lot of episodes. Right. That you could, you could monetize in different fashion.
- [16:36]
A
We have huge libraries, we have a lot of licensing. Like we have a, we have a deal with Tubi that we've announced already where we've got a lot of our library content there. We're launching several fast channels already. But now as we think about like net new content or windowing, like these are all conversations that are starting to come to head. And I think what you're also seeing is a lot of traditional media companies or linear companies that are amazing at what they do, but they're trying to figure out what is my digital strategy, right. What does my YouTube strategy mean? And it does not work anymore just to put my existing episode maybe on YouTube or put a cut down or a trailer. Let's not think about it as like the little brother. Well, let's think about it as like a real, you know, a real player because that's where the audiences are, particularly young people as now YouTube has eclipsed Netflixes and the Amazons and everyone else on television.
- [17:27]
C
Yeah, you're starting, you see like ESPN has verts and I think Paramount plus is playing around with vertical content. I don't think anybody's totally Figured out how do you translate Yellowstone into short form or something like that or vice versa. But yeah, everyone's trying to play in that space, right?
- [17:44]
A
100%. Even as you think about like, and this is not a space that we play in, but, you know, short form fiction. Right. And like kind of that snackable. Hey, you're, you're, you know, SRA just did that series that has whatever, 20 episodes across, one minute clips on TikTok. I think we're going to see a lot more experimentation that way. And by the way, it's cheaper, faster, you get a response quickly. You're not in development for like six months and then say, wait, right. This thing we spent whatever $20 million on, like we're finding that no one actually wants it.
- [18:14]
C
It's not a disaster if you have to shift gears if something's not working.
- [18:17]
A
Yeah, that's right.
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C
Are you, Are you bullish on? I confess to not knowing what I think about microdramas. It's obviously humongous in Asia. I'm torn about whether it's going to be huge here or not.
- [18:28]
A
I'm a big believer in go fish where the fish are. So I do think that there should be a strategy as far as meeting young people or meeting audience where they're at, whether it's on YouTube or on these kind of short form platforms. As far as the kind of content that will work, I think that's TBD particular because a lot of people are trying to go at it with like an AI approach, which I've got some skepticism towards, but I think it's going to work to some degree. Whether it's going to work to the degree that it works in Asia, I'm. I'm actually still a bit skeptical too.
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C
Again, I'm generally speaking about your. It doesn't seem to lend itself to like, let's have AI just do this for us. Are you rushing to use AI in some way in your production process to just make sure you understand it? Are you like, I don't. I'm. What we do is about humans and authenticity. I don't want to touch it. Where are you on that spectrum?
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A
Yeah, I mean, my perspective is that AI is like the Internet in some ways, where every company will utilize or leverage AI in some way, shape or form. But that said, to your point, we are such a human company and I think while everyone is going into more AI content, even like AI created, but AI on screen content or AI created content, I think that what we'll find is that Jubilee is the Place where you're looking for human, for human conversation. And, you know, and I don't think that there's anything wrong necessarily with AI content, but it's like when we want to go touch grass, like, be. Be more human, that's where people will come back to Jubilee.
- [19:53]
C
On that note, like, what do you think? People love to spec or they love, they love to summarize Gen Z in really simple terms. You know, they're, they're either addicted to screens, can't socialize, all the, all the negative things, or they are.
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A
They.
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C
Or they are polarized. What do people not understand maybe about this generation and their attitudes, media habits as, as, as you, you. You could represent the entire generation if you'd like.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I don't know actually if this is singular just to Gen Z, because I think a lot of times, you know, I've got kids now, but like other generations will say, oh, this is the problem with Gen Z. But truthfully, I'm seeing it across generations where public discourse is increasingly fragmented, algorithms are creating more and more echo chambers. People are being fed more points of view that they inherently agree with, and they're being challenged less.
- [20:45]
C
What is that YouTube creating?
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A
Yeah, exactly. And what we, I think, need more so than ever is the opposite spaces where we're hearing from different perspectives, different points of view, where conversations are unscripted, but there's real authenticity, there's dialogue, and there's a reflection of what's, you know, a real sentiment out there. And I think that's one of the reasons why people have run towards Jubilee during this time. But also it can be difficult at times too. Right. So I think that there's going to be. I don't think that's like whatever, AI, social media, any of these things are inherently bad. I think it's just there's more and more of a. A recognition. You know what? I think this is what Gen Z is. I think that there is an inherent recognition of what's happening. More so. Yeah, and there is this kind of like, this is a time for brain rot, and this is a time that I need to like, recognize that this is part of the algorithm or what is my counter programming that I'm looking for for.
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C
Right. As long as you're, as you're conscious of that and maybe picking your spots, that's probably, I think, I think Gen
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A
Z is very conscious of that, and that's what they're yearning for more so from traditional media. You know, as we talk to a lot of, you know, we've put it out there. We want to be able to host future presidential debates. Why is it that right now a lot of young people are not tuning into a lot of these conversations? And I think it's because a lot of it feels like a play, like a two act play where people are just going to their thumb speech. There's nothing, I think that's often being shared in these spaces. And we're like, oh, there's a way to do this in a way more dynamic fashion. And that's where folks like Jubilee can come into play.
- [22:18]
C
All right, so the 2028 election will be decided with Jubilee. Anything. What else do I need to know? What should people in the audience know about what's next for you guys?
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A
We want to play a part.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I think that the bridge between traditional and digital is becoming more and more apparent. And the smartest traditional players and, you know, traditional, such a broad word, but whether it's the streamers, whether it's the programmers, whether it's the studios are reaching out to digital first studios like ourselves to say, how would you go about this? And we're going to be partnering with a lot of folks. So I think that's really, really exciting. And that means a few years ago,
- [22:56]
C
like, keep me away, you know, we're doing different sports or something like that.
- [22:59]
A
Yeah, exactly. So that might mean you'll see more of Jubilee in those spaces, but I think more so also you'll see more of them being smarter on the digital first platforms.
- [23:09]
C
All right, well, that's, that's a super intriguing way to end it. Jason, awesome conversation. Thanks so much for your time here and let's hopefully chat again down the road.
- [23:15]
A
Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Michael. Appreciate it.
- [23:17]
C
Thanks again to my guest this week,
- [23:19]
B
Jason Wiley of Jubilee Media and my partners at KDview Planner. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review.
- [23:26]
C
We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button and we'll see you next time for more on what's next in media. Thanks for listening.