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Long Form Creator Content Really is Having a Moment Right Now
00:23:23
Next in Creator Media spoke with Cristina Lawrence, EVP of Consumer & Content Experience at Razorfish about the march toward more TV-like seasons for many top creators, and whether this is making it easier to move ad dollars over from TV. Lawrence also talked about TikTok's future, who might grab the social commerce mantle, and whether Joe Rogan is a podcaster or a YouTuber.
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- [00:00]
A
Looking to get more out of your YouTube advertising? With view Planner, you can buy with total confidence and clarity. View Planner is a verified YouTube brand suitability and contextual targeting partner in the YouTube measurement program. Recognized by Google as a trusted and independent leader in driving and measuring performance on YouTube, their advanced technology gives you a clear edge. Only with View Planner we're talking custom curated contextual collections, exclusive content strategies, transparent reporting, and AI driven optimization to deliver real results. Don't let your budget go to waste. Partner with View Planner. Experience the difference. Visit viewplanner.com now to unlock your full advertising potential on YouTube. That's V U E P L A N N E R.com this week on Next in Creator Media, I spoke with Christina Lawrence, she's the EVP of consumer and content experience at Razorfish, about the company's creator Collab initiative, which consists of the agency actually bringing creator content makers on staff to work directly with clients. Christina and I also talked about a Pinterest Renaissance where TikTok's audience might go and why podcast money and TV money could suddenly converge. Let's get. Hi everybody. Welcome to Next in Creator Media. I'm Mike Shields. I'm here with Christina Lawrence. She's the EVP of Consumer Content experience at Razorfish North America. Hey Christina, thanks for being here.
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B
No, thank you. I'm excited.
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A
Excited as well. I want to ask you, you know, when it comes to this creator space, you know, there's been a lot of talk lately about a lot of the bigger creators are getting a little bit more organized and YouTube is orienting it's interface around the idea of seasons and franchises and it's not new, but this seems like it's a bigger trend. Do you see this as a bigger trend going forward? And is this something that brands are paying attention to?
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B
Yeah. So I think what you're seeing, it's, it's just a maturation of the space in general, you know, like taking a step back. I think what we're talking about is really long form content and that long.
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A
Form being a relative term. Long form in this case.
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B
Long form. Right. Like maybe not long form from, you know, a decade ago would be different, but we perceive today 20 minutes or more. How about that long form creator content? It really is having a moment right now. And you know, what we're seeing is that there's this shift toward these more structured formats like the video podcast or these longer form episodic series. And you see this with creators like Mr. Beast and his success with YouTube or Joe Rogan people in general are willing to invest this time now because it just feels deeper, more meaningful and more engaging. And you have platforms like YouTube who have really doubled down right. On this type of experience in these formats. And so long story short, it's because creators today, like we say this often, they are the media networks. We used to say the media networks of tomorrow. No, they're the media networks of today day. Creators are. And influencers are media networks. That means that you're able to reach that mass engagement. And now brands are seeing them as they should, as really marketing vehicles. Right. To tap into highly engaged audiences. Because it's not about one off campaigns anymore. Right. It's an opportunity for brands to integrate into these long form content initiatives in a way that feels smarter and more organic. Think of it like a product placement or you know, the type of partnership that will allow them to align with a creator's like entire production cycle. It's a symbiotic relationship.
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A
Yeah. So yeah, is it, you know, generally speaking in the creator world, it's not easy for a media buyer or a planner to wrap their head around it and buy it. Like there's so many voices ago, there's a million zillion plays. Is this making it easier? Are we talking only about like the top 20 creators that have these 20 minute shows and they're expensive and. Or is it. Is this organization helping you buy and sell like a network, so to speak?
- [04:18]
B
It's relatively new and I think you're working with at this point, it's creators that really have those established presences. You are approaching it though more like a partnership and more like you would a. I would say like a brand integration. So now, you know, you're not doing that just within a, like within film or.
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A
Yeah, it's not. This is not just another place to buy GRPs or whatever.
- [04:43]
B
Exactly. It really is about a brand finding a creator that they align with, really aligns with their brand purpose, their brand mission, their brand values. And then it's a, it's a, it's a relationship of trust because again, you are giving up some control to that creator who knows best how to engage their audience, knows best how to make that content. So it is a different sort of partnership, but I think the value, I mean, it speaks for itself.
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A
Right, right. You made me think of this. It's interesting. Historically, you know, podcasts were niche and then sort of growing, becoming more mainstream. That was mostly treated I think as like a radio alternative or audio advertising and the money. But you know, with, with the election and the attention we're seeing on how big YouTube has become for a podcast, is that changing? Are the dollars coming in a different way now?
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B
I mean, all I'm going to tell you is this, is that I love podcasts and I love video podcasts and I think a lot of people that we're probably talking to do now, and I would challenge you, when you hear about your favorite, your creator talking about some product that they're endorsing or using and they normally, the good ones will really integrate it into the continent of their show. Right. I mean, you remember it, don't you? And so I would say like that alone. And along with that third party referral, the credibility that they are lending to that brand and that referral, especially because you trust, right. These creators that you're listening to, I think that we are talking about it's a whole new world and how we should be thinking about where we should be spending those media dollars. Especially if, you know, you are looking to reach niche audiences or just incredibly engaged audiences.
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A
The people that are into those shows are really into it and the religious really into it.
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B
Correct. Yep. And it should be a part of any marketing plan.
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A
Yeah. On that note, sort of related, but you know, you're seeing a lot of these top creators make their own, launch their own brands. And Beast is another example. He's got his feastables, but you're there, there's a bunch of creators with candy and a lot, tons of makeup. Are you seeing are a lot of your clients like, let's do a brand with so and so or is that already becoming like saturated? Is there a bubble there? Like what's, what's going on there?
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B
I don't think there's ever a bubble. And there's always, you know, that next group of like gen zers who are looking for the next fun viral thing. So I don't think bubble applies. I think that these sorts of deals or partnerships will actually just continue to scale. Personally, I think that brands looking to partner like with you know, like a Charlie D'Amelio and her sister, like I believe it was Hollister, they're going to have like those sub lines perhaps or those limited edition sort of products. I think you're going to see a lot of that. Then we're talking about, you know, at the next level. It's like a Mr. Beast with his feastables or it's like Justin Bieber's wife, Hailey. I think it's his terror name, like with road beauty. Like you're Seeing them actually launch incredibly successful DTC brands, right?
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A
Those are not one off for short term things. They're, they're in the game. They're becoming marketers, right?
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B
That's like they are becoming like their business owners. They're like founders now. Right. And so no, I don't think that the market is saturated. I think that we're going to continue to see that and we're going to see the ones that succeed. It will be about authenticity, right. To like what they represent and what they do in real life. And these sorts of brands need to be deeply aligned with that creator's personal identity to take off because it's about that audience trust and audience loyalty.
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A
You don't want to shoehorn stupid things that just are not appropriate for a creator. Doesn't make any sense.
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B
Correct. And I think there's a willing audience, there is a receptive audience, right. For these types of products, especially because the platforms themselves are even prioritizing this type of social commerce activity.
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A
Okay, speaking of social commerce, it's definitely had a moment like we were sort of waiting when is, when is the US going to adopt this live shopping thing, the social commerce thing? It definitely seems to have making a lot of headway. Is that like how big is that in your mind? What patterns are you seeing? And then you know, obviously what the hell happens if TikTok goes away?
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B
You know, like the shopping behaviors that we've really. Asia leads the way. Right. Particularly live shopping and social commerce. And although we have seen an uptick in the US markets, I still don't think that adoption is anywhere near what we're seeing.
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A
You know, it's not like a lifestyle.
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B
Like it is, it is not a lifestyle. Right. It's not a way of living quite yet. Not like what is in China. And like, for example, you know, you have a platform like a TikTok who really like, they evolve from simply being entertainment to really like their TikTok shops that they, they really, it's integral to the product.
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A
They try to make it commerce.
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B
Right. And that's through the in app and the live shopping. You see Amazon, Amazon as of late, you can do live shopping with. You know, we actually just did a program with creators. Right, right. On Amazon's, you know, product page for this brand. You're starting to see commerce features in all of the platforms. But I think one of the things is that we still have, compared to Asia, we have a fragmented social platform landscape.
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A
Maybe not, maybe not for long, but.
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B
Maybe not for long. Right? We just have a different Consumer base that have different native behaviors. Right. And I think that that's why we're seeing a gradual uptake in the, in the U.S. nevertheless, I think that the integration of these shopping features is just going to continue.
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A
Getting back to the working with creators, creator discovery we talked about, you know, it's these creators that are doing the seasons and everything. You, you can find them pretty easily, the beast, the Charlie D'Amelios. But there's also a lot of chatter and excitement around how important the right micro influencers or midsize influencers are. Have you figured out a way to find them that is easy to just sort through and be confident? Is there a way, is there, are there just great metrics, tools, or is it constantly just trying to find the right creator? How do you, how do, what's that like for you right now?
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B
Yeah, so micro influencers and those niche creators are so important, especially when you think about having to work with these folks at large numbers. Right. So that you can get into and really achieve contact with those key niche audiences. And so it's all about really being able to, you know, make those brand connections with those niche audiences that you want to invite into the brand ecosystem. And so we very much work with partners, we have tools. A great example is, you know, within Publicis Group. Razor Bridge is a part of Publicist Group. Our sister agency that is a part of Public Group is influential which really.
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A
Just acquisition last middle of last year.
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B
Absolutely. And so they, they actually have access, I mean their database of those mid level to niche creators that really perform and that you can actually identify by key interests, by performance.
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A
So that's a big part of that value. They're not just like an influencer agency that they really do have tools and.
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B
Data that is critical. And then also too we have our own independent relationships with micro or niche influencers or creators that we can bring to bear, you know, a part of that too, I mean depending on how you view it. We also have an in house team of creators called the Creator Collab that we also can tap for rapid content creation for any one of the clients that you know, we service at Razorfish.
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A
So who are they? Like are they. When you like. They're not. They don't work for Publicist. Right. They're real creators, but there's just somebody you have an ongoing relationship with and.
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B
They actually work for Razorfish.
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A
Okay, I didn't realize that.
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B
So this is like a whole new model that we launched last year. We said to ourselves, you know, we have these relationships with Creators and influencers and we work through our favorite creator and influencer partners. Right. But what we saw was the gap was the speed to market piece there still takes that ramp up time.
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A
Everything we talked about today does not sound fast in general.
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B
It's not easy, Nothing. Right. And yet we're living in a world where the Internet, digital, I mean it is at the speed of life and.
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A
Brands are of a lot of pressure and they got to move. Yeah.
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B
So you know, we were thinking to ourselves, what would it take to actually bring on board like a stable of creators that much like a studio model we could leverage across the country for various brands that need to be in market now. Right. And so we launched the creator collaboration. We have people that are employees, a part of our team that we can deploy toward whatever client need against whatever objective on any of the social platforms. We're creating content that's right. For whatever platform we need it for. And that has been hugely successful because it fills that gap between the content that we need today while we're working, let's say with influential. Right. On a longer term program.
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A
Like could you have an example of like, you know, what kind of people they were, what kind of followings they had and then how they came about.
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B
Yeah. So these are folks who, they were born digital. They've been doing this for a while and I would like to say that they're very T shaped and what I mean by that is they bring to bear different sorts of skills. Like they have photography, some have photography in their background. They are very skilled writers. But they also are able to do social strategy, they can do social editing. Right. They can do social art direction. They really have these very broad backgrounds mixed with the ability to do, I would say the strategy and the planning aspects, which makes them hybrid talent across the board.
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A
That sounds pretty rare.
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B
It's very hard, I'm going to tell you. It is very hard to find these folks. But when you do, there's all sorts of efficiencies that you gain because they almost become like these self sustaining little pods that can do everything from the strategy and planning of what they're doing, the ideation and then the creation.
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A
That's interesting. I need to check this out more because that is not something I would, because I would wonder over time can you like burn them out, so to speak, if you use, if you use the same crater a bunch with a bunch of brands, I imagine you have to figure it out.
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B
We talk about this all the time, like things like, like a brand. What if they keep Seeing the same person, right. They're going to want somebody new. Well, this is. These are the different things we have to balance. Right. And so this is why we have to think about different ways we capture content. Maybe we're not always focusing on a person. Maybe we are really thinking about more of some sort of demonstration. The different types of content we can make. Plus having multiple pods, right. And so we have multiple pods set up and that allows us to rotate through.
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A
Interesting. I wonder if you're going to see the same kind of patterns with media companies finding stables like this they bring in house. Okay, jumping back a little bit. Got to talk about TikTok. We're talking in late January. We don't. No one really knows what's going to happen. I've seen debates on this whether TikTok is replaceable with reels and YouTube shorts. Are they all very similar in your mind in terms of audience and content? Are they very different? And then could either of those guys kind of take over the Commerce mantle if TikTok were to go away?
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B
These are all beautiful questions only the future can reveal. I mean, so I think an important distinction is that YouTube shorts compared to like a TikTok versus Instagram, right? The data just shows that our youngest audiences, like our Gen Alphas, right. Our iPad Kids, YouTube is their primary platform, right? That's what they're looking at on their iPad or you know, their, their parents phone this alongside other engagement platforms like take a, like a Roblox or a Fortnite would be like then second. But like I just saw some data that said 68% of Gen Alpha use YouTube and rank that platform as the coolest. I think that was just written about like that's coming from I believe ad age. And we also have our own Gen Alpha studies that we're doing. So I think that's an important distinction because that's where the kids are starting now when it comes to YouTube. I think YouTube is with like Gen Z, they are spending the lion's share of their time there because they're consuming that longer form content. I think TikTok though really is that experience for that unique like just scrollable organic content that is not watching a 20 minute show.
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A
It's totally zoning out.
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B
Kind of built for that, right? It wasn't built for that. And you see that content being shared then on YouTube shorts or on Instagram reels. I think all the platforms are very different with very different goals. I think you started to see right before all of this hullabaloo like TikTok was also investing in longer form and so I guess the future will. We'll have to wait and see what happens over the next. I think it's like 75 days. Yes, I believe and counting and counting. I think that there will be moves by other platforms to try to make up the white space that is left if something goes awry, but we don't know yet. And I also think that like TikTok's, you know, influence on brand awareness and sales, that also has to be mentioned. But yeah, wait and see.
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A
Yeah, my 20 something cousin kind of ripped me for liking reels, so I don't know what that says. But yeah, there's. There seems to be an opening for somebody to try and grab that social commerce thing if they can do it. What about. This is a little bit of a left turn, but it could be related is what I keep hearing. Pinterest is having a moment. Not that it ever went away, but in terms of creators breaking out maybe and their, their platform getting better about facilitating shopping, it's hard to summarize what's the latest on Pinterest in the creator world.
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B
You know, when it comes to Pinterest, Pinterest is this amazing platform that fuels discovery. Right. It's like a search engine of itself. We talk about TikTok being Gen Z search Pinterest as well, especially for shopping. Right. And I know that like brands have had great success partnering with creators on Pinterest because they're almost like this massive affiliate army. Right. With all the pending products.
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A
That's interesting.
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B
You know, think about it as like you're, it's, it's essentially like your catalog of products. Right. All represented through these different creators lenses and really driving clicks to purchase. And so you saw that, you know, their partnership with Spotify. Not Spotify, Shopify.
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A
Yes, yes, very different.
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B
Different. I mean really reaffirms they're doubling down in social commerce and really leveraging their community, you know, for these types of searchable catalog type activations from top brands. And you know, I think that we're going to see more and more of this. This is obviously an area of focus for them. And then they have that. Their Pinterest creator fund. Right. And so that again is in partnership with Shopify and really aimed toward bringing in diverse voices, including, you know, business owners. Right. Into more of this creator mindset, training them how to be creators for the platform.
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A
Right. Which is not always a natural. That's interesting.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In, in terms of your, this pursuit of trying to, to master the creator media world for your brands. Like, are you lacking in third party measurement? Is everything. Is the fragmentation tying things together, like what's missing that could really help you and your brand?
- [21:53]
B
I think that the fragmentation piece and being able to really show that full connection from discovery all the way through purchase, that is always like the holy grail. And there are different techniques or ways that you can try to piece that story together, but there's often not a complete way, especially knowing that any brand at any time is a part of their overarching marketing. Like that is marketing mix. They are likely working with different creators and different influencers that live on multiple platforms. And so being able to bring all of that together and then really demonstrate like that, that single like tell me what have we sold Right. A lot of that still is. Is some detective work. It takes some detective work to piece it all together. But I think we're getting there.
- [22:49]
A
The Master Magic Dashboard is not there yet, but that's where we love to go.
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B
Not yet, but you know, we. This is what you know, there's always some good work to do. That's what makes what we do fun.
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A
Absolutely. Well, Christina, awesome conversation. Thanks so much for your time here. Let's chat again down the road for sure.
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B
And great meeting you. Yeah.
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A
Thank you. Thanks again to my guest this week, Razorfish's Christina Lawrence, and my partners at View Planner. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's Next in Creator Media. Thanks for listening.