Loading summary
Transcript64 lines
- [00:00]
A
Should I be investing in sports? Should I be investing in entertainment? Should I be investing in streaming television or streaming audio? Those decisions come from consumer insights. And consumer insights are not going to be available to you if you're just taking the outcome from an AI engine. We're all focused at the beginning or end state planning how you want to think about it with what marketers care about. And I think to put ourselves in the marketer's shoes, it's a complex time to be a marketer. Things are not different, but they're complex. How do I navigate a consistent view of a consumer across linear television, connected television, streaming audio, terrestrial radio, et cetera? How do I link all that stuff? And I don't have any sense that my marketing campaign is not just a bunch of chaos, but actually has some connected throughput through all those initiatives. The best way to be really good at marketing the future is to.
- [00:52]
B
This week on Nexty Media, I chatted with Matt Spiegel of TransUnion about the state of data and identity in the digital ad world. What really has changed since cookies and privacy laws and all the signal laws we've been talking about and what hasn't, thanks to AI. Matt and I also talked about his point of view and the role of agencies going forward and whether a gentic advertising is a real thing yet. Let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to nexty Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Matt Speakel. He is the EVP of Marketing Solutions Growth Strategies at TransUnion. Hey Matt, thanks for being here.
- [01:18]
A
Yeah. Hey Mike, good morning. Happy to be here.
- [01:20]
B
Psych to talk to you at this moment in time because it's, we're at a pretty interesting juncture I think and you're, you're at the center of like all these interesting identity issues, conversations, trends. How do you, how do you kind of, how do you sum things up? Because we're in this moment. I've been asking a lot of people that we were supposed to be in cookie apocalypse. Signal loss is still real even though things have changed. But then you also have this wave of AI driven media buying where identity's role may or may not be changing. I don't know if you can sum that all. Some, some where things are, but where, where do you see things right now?
- [01:54]
A
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. We could probably spend 45 minutes on that question alone. I guess I'd start here. Listen, I think the, the thing to remember and what, what is kind of what, what are we dealing with at large. Right. And we're all focused at the, at the beginning or end state, depending on how you want to think about it, with what marketers care about. And I, and I think to put ourselves in the marketer's shoes, it's a complex time to be a marketer. Things are not different, but they're complex. What, what do I mean? So, so much of what we're after in the current world is how to become more data driven, how to enable more precision marketing. But do that at scale. And to do that is actually on one hand not that hard, but it's hard when you don't have the right infrastructure. And at the core, most marketers and most of the ecosystem players out there lack the core infrastructure, which is a connected ecosystem of data infrastructure. And I don't mean technology necessarily, but there's a technology component, but I mean the ability to connect different data sets in order to have an actual sustainable, scaled and lasting view of customers.
- [03:01]
B
So they have lots of data. They just can't make it all talk to each other and get a, make it paint a clear picture for them.
- [03:08]
A
That is just very broadly, that is absolutely one part of the problem. It's, it seems, I think for a lot of us that are practitioners in this, in this industry, we spend so much time on the bleeding and leading edge of the stuff that we do that we do forget that a lot of these large scaled organizations that we think of as marketers, they're not marketing organizations or organizations that do marketing. And so there are many different things that are required in that organization. And they deal with the fact that the CRM database might be in one place, the transactional records of customers might be another, their marketing prospect database might be a third thing and they're not necessarily linked.
- [03:46]
B
And you know, as much as we're like there's a cloud and everybody just plugs into it, like that's not that.
- [03:49]
A
Simple for it's not where, it's not where everybody is. I think that's really important. In fact, we just want a piece of business with a, with a QSR that is actually earlier in that journey than later. Even though they collect a good bit of loyalty data, that loyalty data because they created an app and they therefore.
- [04:06]
B
Tracked more of this. Right. We got to get more data.
- [04:09]
A
That's right. And that exists and it's great. But if you have that as its own thing, disconnected from your other tools, disconnected from the rest of your marketing, you find there's still a lot of work to do not to Mention by the way, there is a practical reality that for still many customers the core data hygiene is still something that takes work. Right. So that again is on this screen. I don't know if our listeners can see my name's listed as Matthew. I don't go by Matthew almost anywhere.
- [04:36]
B
Look at me, Michael. I hate. Unless I'm in trouble. I don't, I don't like hearing that.
- [04:40]
A
There we go. So we're the same. Our parents, you know, trained us well. Right, right. So but if I'm mad in one database, Matthew, in another, have they been linked? Right. Again, simple data hygiene stuff, totally solvable. But practically speaking a lot of organizations are still going through that reality. And so the, the, the headline for me is that there is still at the core a set of disconnected data assets that create so many of the problems that we deal with on top of that and identity resolution. And the signal loss is, was one of those realities because it's not a set and forget type thing. And so you are right, marketers are dealing with on top of the disconnected data to begin with. You then have signal loss. You then have disparate privacy regulations and rules depending on where you're operating around the world. I still believe the end goal is still pretty much the same which is to aggregate more data on the customers you work with, understand consumers holistically better and apply that to great marketing strategies and do that at scale. But yes, you have to do that differently. And by the way, don't forget, better adopt AI. Oh wait, measurement models are changing. Wait, what data can I trust? So yeah, it's a complex time, it's solvable, but there's a lot to do.
- [05:55]
B
I want to come back to the AI point of course, but you made me think of this, the inherent my impression and maybe it's because of who I talk to and what I see. It always feels like the platforms are going to be a step ahead of the brand side of the agency side when it comes to identity resolution. Just because there are inherent advantages. There are huge logged in platforms which, which I think does that. Is that, am I right in thinking that way? And does that create a weird imbalance where we're in this outcomes based era and those guys are always going to be talk, talking about their advantage there.
- [06:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, let me unpack that a couple ways. I think there's something there. Listen, you know talking about the, the walled gardens is what I really hear you think you're talking about there which is separate maybe than the skilled technology platforms. And I think There's a dimension that's relevant too. True. But there's certainly the big walled garden media platforms. Listen, there's no doubt about the fact that they have a scaled view of customers with a level of dimensionality that few marketers can have on their own. And most marketers, given the reality of the world, like the easy button, if you will, of being able to make calls to those big platforms and just get outcomes, there's a reason why those businesses are scaled as much as they're scaled. The thing that we certainly see in the conversations we end up having is, and this is by the way, it feels like what's old is new again. Right. This was the conversation in 8, 9 and 10 when we were just creating programmatic ecosystem and the whole talk track was how do I move from opaque ad networks into programmatic buying with transparency. Right. Like a decade and a half later we're kind of in the same cycle of that conversation or in another cycle of the same conversation I think is better said. And so today we have that same dimension, which is as a marketer, how do I choose or what do I choose? Do I choose the easy button? Knowing that these companies do have all this identity data, they do have, by the way, a stitch to that, the types of behavioral information which leads to good marketing campaigns. But they won't share it. But I do drive outcomes. The problem with that's a singular view of outcomes and I'm spending money in lots of places and now how do I do all that, counting that attribution. So you keep do ending up in a place that says yes, number one, the media companies and the platforms are probably ahead of most marketers in that intelligence. Right. Marketers are clearly catching up. Agencies, you know, obviously have made a lot of investment in that space. We power some of them. We can talk about that as well. We have many direct marketing clients that, you know, leverage identity resolution also. But it's the beginning. And so on top of that, you then need to get committed to an analytical practice that wants to understand consumer insights. A a media buying strategy that actually gets into deep granular segmentation and then importantly a measurement strategy that actually values the ability to understand attribution across all these platforms. So you can do all those things. But if you. But back to what your question was, was there is an advantage for platforms, there's an easy button for marketers and turning into the platforms. And that's. And that's the trade off, right, which is can I press the button? I know I'm getting good Outcomes. I don't necessarily know why and I know I have some double counting, if you will.
- [09:11]
B
Long term, maybe it's not great, but it's. Right now it's looking good.
- [09:14]
A
This is the constant balance of our industry. Now again, I believe personally that we will trend and we have over the last 15 years we've trended towards more transparency, more long term knowledge, more data sharing, more of that sophistication. To me that's an ongoing trend that will not stop. But each step of the journey I think there are some pauses in that and then there are times that we as practitioners and you know, hardcore believers of the potential take it too far. Right, right. And then you find it's really kind of. We go back and forth a little bit in my mind.
- [09:48]
B
You, you mentioned, I was going to ask you about this, you mentioned the agencies, all the holding companies. ADH actually had a really good piece in this recently. They're all trying to tout themselves as AI based platforms with an identity with a unique identifier at their core. I'm something, you know, I'm summarizing this a little bit, but if it feels like they tried this about 10 years ago and they had some fits and starts and now they're really serious, I guess. What do you think about that trend? Can the holding companies compete or play in that game? And then how do you work with someone, others? What is that? That's a lot of talk there as well.
- [10:23]
A
Yeah, no, all good. Let's take it first from what the agency's strategy, which makes a ton of sense, which is ultimately what's going on is their marketers expect the investments that they make in media to be driven by data and granular segmentation. Right. That to be good at, you know, unique custom media strategies is not just about scale. Scale still important in the idea that it's not. Doesn't make any sense. Right. But it is to how do I navigate a consistent view of a consumer across linear television, connected television, streaming audio, terrestrial radio, digital, you know, display media, online mobile apps, et cetera. How do I link all that stuff? And I don't have any sense that my marketing campaign is not just a bunch of chaos, but actually has some connected throughput through all those initiatives. If you're a scaled media agency, you have to have that view of identity resolution. How you get there is a different discussion. Some have clearly acquired companies, some have built this from the ground up and some turn the companies like TransUnion to be that core infrastructure. You know, listen, I think there's always going to be a push and pull of, you know, does it make sense for companies to invest in this themselves? Certainly someone like me having seen this game thinks it's really hard to stay current and stay as good as.
- [11:47]
B
I wonder about that. Yeah, how can you. I mean the, the, the, the knock on holding company is fair enough. Oh, they're not, they're not technology companies at their core. How can they compete with a platform? Or can they? Can they really should. Should you build an identity product on your client's work? Like how hard is that to do?
- [12:05]
A
Well, I think, I think so. Let me for I would go only slightly direct different direction on what the challenge is. Right. I think these companies, these holding companies can do it. I think the reality is the it's less a technology problem, it's more data sourcing and analytical problem which again can it be solved? Sure. Should you solve it? I understand why some are trying to do it directly, I get it. But not everyone's going to. But I think the core question really is much more about the ability to stay current, to provide a best in class solution. And connected to that, how do marketers view their role of their media buying agencies in this data driven marketing ecosystem? And that is different for many. Some marketers have been with their same agency for decades. Many other marketers change their media buying agency every few years, all the time. If you're in that latter camp, then sticking your data infrastructure to your agency partner I think brings you challenges. You do not want to have to start that over all the time. So to me, again, listen, not only again I sat in the shoes, I was at Omnicom way back when. As you know, I get these investments, I would be making the investments inside agencies. I think independent players like TransUnion offer a lot of value in that ecosystem. And I think as a marketer what I'd be really judging is what are my long term bets here? Because certainly and again, as you said, at some point in time we'll unpack AI. Maybe it's now. But the more that we turn to AI driven tools, that historical knowledge becomes really, really critical. And the last thing you want to do is reinvent that every few years.
- [13:44]
B
Digital advertising is facing growing signal loss across browsers, devices and connected tv. That makes accurate identity more important than ever. Intent IQ is a privacy first identity resolution leader, helping advertisers, publishers and platforms recognize and reach real audiences across both cookie based and idea list environments. Powered by a patented identity graph and advanced signal enrichment, Intent IQ delivers the scale and accuracy needed to drive measurable performance and better monetization for both advertisers and publishers. To learn how Intent IQ helps turn fragmented signals into real results, visit intentiq.com okay, I promise we're talking about AI.
- [14:22]
A
Hold on. I'm actually not that big in a rush either, by the way. I know, I know. How can we not get there?
- [14:27]
B
I'm just trying to tease the audience here.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah, there you go.
- [14:29]
B
The. I happen to have met with Horizon last week, really showing me their interest, their platform and their blue identifier. And you guys are partners with them.
- [14:38]
A
That's right.
- [14:38]
B
How do you, how do you help an agency build their identity products? Spine, Whatever direction it goes. And maybe this is not your question for you, but how do you make sure that you're they. How do they not all become the same when they work with a partner like you versus somebody else?
- [14:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. And actually, I don't think that's the challenge because if you actually think about what we're all trying to do with an identity resolution. Spine, as you said, foundation, you know, footprint, which again for us starts with having both scale and depth of identity data signals. Everyone wants that to be as accurate as possible. Right. Like that is foundational. Yeah. You, you actually don't want to differentiate on whether you have right or wrong identity resolution.
- [15:20]
B
You don't want to, you don't want to be all over the place. And then when, when it's supposed to be something that is totally accurate.
- [15:25]
A
That's right. So let's, let's. I'd take totally slightly off of it. Let's be real. We are in marketing data. It will never have total accuracy, but you want really high quality accuracy and you want, you want scale and quite frankly, actually depending on use case, you want to be able to swing the dial a little bit. If you're doing a targeting activation, you might be a little less concerned about accuracy. You might take some of those extra consumers and put them in that segment. I'll go ahead and message to them. But in a measurement use case, you want to be really, really accurate and by the way, really important. And I think this is one of the challenges and where I think our work to help agencies like Horizon is important is I think one of the biggest issues our industry faces is when you use one identity infrastructure to target and you use another identity infrastructure to measure. Now you've got this data, you know, confusion that's really, really hard for marketers is to be like, well, do I trust My measurement data or do I trust my targeting data?
- [16:20]
B
And stupid question, why does that happen? Because it's just a totally different vendor, it's not your own.
- [16:25]
A
Because everyone's got a slightly different, you know, calculation of how you stitch together identity signals. You've got slightly different match, you know, formulas. And so if you start with a transunion segment for activation that you decided I want to be highly tuned to accurate, you then pump that through the ecosystem and let's say that it got translated to a UID and programmatic, right. Well now UID is stitching that to some cookies, some impressions, some other signals that it decides is that right user on a non logged in environment that I'm exposing that ad now I've got to suck all that data back and now what am I measuring on and am I actually getting that signal back all the way to the same identity infrastructure or my measuring it to something different? And now I have to, I have to ask the question, did I or did I, did I not actually reach who I thought I would reach? And you're not sure. So I actually think that's a really, I don't know that that resonates easily for a lot of people who aren't in the weeds of this all. Yeah. But I think this idea of a commonality of the identity infrastructure through the whole process is actually one of the things I think is most misunderstood.
- [17:33]
B
Right. Seems simple and obvious, but really important I think.
- [17:36]
A
Super, super important. I think it doesn't mean you have to do everything, doesn't mean you have to come to transunion and source everything. But it does mean you should pick a transunion or others consistency and create that connected tissue and not just see yourself as pin pricking all the time. Right. So, so, so let me just get back to the question you asked because I do think it's not a good one, which is, well, how do agencies differentiate for us, that is up to the agency and we are the enabler and what we're. I can just sell you what we're seeing. And it is different for the agency. Each agency invests in different, in different points. Some go hard into measurement differentiation, some go hard into their analytical rigor around segmentation. Some go into much more full service creative into media pitch, et cetera, et cetera. So our view point is, and I actually remember back in the day when I was at Omnicom and I would do this with Doubleclick where I was like hey Doubleclick, we're all sourcing the same thing. From you, how do you differentiate? And what I took away from that time is how good DoubleClick was at saying to me, well, what do you want to enable? We'll enable that with you. We take the same approach. We've got lots of data assets. It's not just identity resolution, it's behavioral data, it's demographic data, it's shopping behavioral data. We've got measurement tools. What do you want to take from us on top of that? What are you building on your own?
- [18:55]
B
That's where the differentiation happens.
- [18:57]
A
That's right. And we'll feed our data assets into whatever your strategies are. And by the way, you don't have to come to our platforms. You want to access the data via the scaled cloud platforms. You can do that. You want to build it into some tool you're sourcing, you can do that. Our view is the best way to be really good at marketing in the future is to have a foundational data asset which is connected and scaled and then you can build from there.
- [19:23]
B
Okay, on that note, let's actually finally talk about AI. It's been interesting because we talked like we talked about this last couple years of this signal loss, everyone trying to race, get more first party data, et cetera and then you have the explosion of AI and the excitement was initially it's still around generative but it's really taken hold on media buying and optimization quickly which and you've had so which has opened up a some or some thinking that identity doesn't matter as much as maybe we thought because the platforms will know people know them in quotes in a different way than within our identity data and that will matter more over time. I guess that's probably maybe too big of a pendulum swing but how do you think about that?
- [20:06]
A
Yeah, yeah, I think that's an over correction. I think it speaks to this notion which is yes we the pendulum swung too far after the initial wave of the programmatic buying era where the idea was I'm after one to one but do that an infinite number of times. And the practical reality is that notion was silly from the get. We were never going to do scaled marketing on a one to one basis. What we cared about though was moving from targeting adults 18 to 34. Right.
- [20:38]
B
Like that was all sorts of waste or uncertainty and yeah, correct.
- [20:42]
A
Right on an index and by that a weak definition of a target and then there's a lot of waste. So we absolutely and probably guilty at charged at some point in time. Probably in 10, 11 or 12. I probably was also spouting the potential to do one to one at scale. Although I kind of have in my head, I always realized that was a bridge too far. But to that point, you know, okay, well that's a bunch of data. And we were chasing that and that was silly. And so now, right, I can just look at other signals. I can look at other intent based signals and say, why do I need identity at the grid? Yeah, listen, I think that's also too far. There will be, there will be instances, there will be executions where that's great. But I do want, in order to plan my business, not just plan my next marketing campaign or not just get some transaction next month, but in order to understand what products do I build, what market segments do I take. Where's the blue ocean? I need to understand customers. Yeah.
- [21:34]
B
I can't just be like, well, I don't know, sometimes it works and some. And I get numbers from the platforms and that's good.
- [21:38]
A
Yeah, that's right. That's great at a certain size. But most of these large enterprise marketers, that doesn't tell you anything about what, what product to build next and what initiative to launch next. And should I, should I be investing in sports? Should I be investing in entertainment? Should I be investing in, you know, streaming television or streaming audio? Those decisions come from consumer insights. And consumer insights are not going to be available to you if you're just taking the outcome from an AI engine. Again. Let's use these AI engines to massively speed how quickly we understand those things. Let's use AI engines to create a whole bunch of better propensity. Like, you know, listen, those engines ultimately supercharge analytical power and thinking. We're using them as much as we possibly can and Right. Are inventing more all the time. But I think that the idea that those tools mean identity resolution and an understanding of consumers is less needed. Yeah, I don't buy that argument.
- [22:35]
B
Yeah, I like that. That was a, it was a firm opinion, man. I appreciate that.
- [22:39]
A
No, no, no worries.
- [22:41]
B
Okay. You mentioned, you know, you were early programmatic, you were an analect, you were media math at a time. I know, it's so, it's so long ago in programmatic years. But what do you make of the market right now? Did you look at ad tech? And it's like I don't even recognize the place anymore. Like, especially with this fervor around agentic. Do you have a sense of like where things stand right now or do you just look at it like.
- [23:01]
A
Yeah, all the above. You know, listen, the buzz is back, which in some ways is great. In some ways is, you know, annoying. Is that the right word? Yeah. You know, there's an element where again, a couple years ago, I think we were all spending time almost apologizing for being in this category.
- [23:21]
B
Right.
- [23:22]
A
There wasn't a lot of funding coming this direction. It felt kind of like this. It was stale and where was invention going to come from? And again, fast forward today and the number of people starting new companies in this category are crazy. The number of ways that, you know, there is disruption because of, clearly AI has unleashed a whole lot of ability to invent new stuff. I think it's as vibrant as it's been. So on one hand as an entrepreneur, as an innovator, I love it. Yeah. On the other hand, as someone also that likes to figure out how to find patterns, that scale. I think it's a noisy time.
- [23:56]
B
Sure.
- [23:57]
A
I think we're, you know, we're in the reality where over the next couple of years that we're going to have some hype cycles and we're gonna, a lot of companies are going to get just enough business to stay relevant for a while and a couple years from now they're going to have to fade and consolidate. We're going to go through that cycle again. So I guess it's all to say, listen, I, I think it's an enti. Exciting time to be in the, the, the category we're really in, which is marketing. Yeah, right. And it's a really interesting time to understand how to do things differently in marketing, how to apply the same marketing strategies, but better and different at more scale. So to me, that's all fun. And along the way though, it means we have to, you know, catch up with a lot of new startups and figure out how to integrate some and some will work and some won't. And yeah, that, that can be time consuming as well with a, you know.
- [24:43]
B
With a little bit of distance. You know, there's a lot of talk about the, well, what an agency is, is going to fundamentally change, if it isn't already. But there's a school of thought that there's going to be. You won't have media planners in the traditional sense or the, the bo. The bots will drive completely. Are, are you, can you imagine, do you imagine that being realistic that clients and agencies would just be okay with letting that kind of take control without the kind of rigor that we're used to?
- [25:11]
A
No, not fully. I don't buy it. I think that was that to me is A there's another, you know, myth that we wrote in the, in the early 2010s, if you will, that media buying was all going to move in house. Right. Yeah. And, and again actually on that one I'm confident, I always felt was a little overdone. Right. Some, some have, most haven't. I think the same thing was probably getting a little overdone now that we're going to wake up and it's just going to be all automated agents that are going to control everything. Yeah, but, but, but let's, but let's nuance this a little bit. We are going to have agents that do a ton of work in this ecosystem. It is going to, I think that we will mostly keep a human in a loop somewhere. I think there will be checks and balances on that system. But the idea that we won't fundamentally be driven by agentic systems. Right. Would be silly to say. Not that that wouldn't happen. That will happen. And I'll actually just bring in this point. That's something I think is going to be interesting for this industry. Listen, I think in the next 12 to 24 months, whenever we have some type of economic pain, right. A quarter or two of less than ideal earnings, I am fearful that we will see a massive amount of layoffs in our category.
- [26:21]
B
Right. There's your trigger to just take, you know, let's rush into this world.
- [26:26]
A
I don't know how companies can avoid it in that scenario. Again, technology should automate technology creates more efficiency. It does mean we need less people in a lot steps of the ecosystem. And I think that's. How do we not have a reckoning in that way? Now I'll add this. I entered, you know, the digital marketing industry in the late 90s and before that you couldn't have none of the titles I've had, none of the jobs I've had existed before then. So there will be new work created, there will be new opportunities. But I am fearful in the short run that it will be hard on this industry that we will lose a lot of people and job opportunities before we create the ones that one hard.
- [27:05]
B
Reset and then hopefully. Yeah, that's my take sort of the nature last thing. And you kind of. You touched on this earlier. You and I were emailing back and forth. You mentioned it's. It's a noisy time, maybe noisier than ever and brands already had it had a tough time sorting through all the different. You guys have talked about how many Martech partners, how many different data sources, what is it like right now for brands that people maybe don't grasp how, how crazy it is and challenging it is.
- [27:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, listen, I think you're, you know, marketers are. And you know, one day you're probably debating with your CIO and asking for different tags and platform and infrastructure and integrate new technology partners. The next day you're turning to your CFO and you're debating whether the numbers are real. And hey, you're telling me there's all this growth from marketing, but we're not up that much. What's going on there? The next day you're being told by some big walled garden that if you just work with us exclusively or mostly, you know, we'll be good and we'll deliver you data. Right. The next day you're looking at your measurement reports and you're trying to figure out attribution is where do I. Who do I actually credit and how do I credit it? So, yeah, listen, there's a lot going on. Again, I think if you have been in this industry for a while, if you've got the kind of underpinned data analytical chops, it doesn't mean you're a data modeler, it doesn't mean you're an analyst. I am neither of those things, but I've been spent my career around data and asking questions. If you're figuring out how to prompt AI engines to understand and explore topics, I think there's a lot of fun in that. But, yeah, there are a lot of things to have to solve for. And at the core to drive sustainable growth can be challenging and it requires not always just pressing the easy button. Yeah. So I think it's possible. Right. There are lots of companies that are out there to enable marketers to do this more effectively at scale. There's an ecosystem of partners. I think the industry is doing an ever better job of playing together, but absolutely, it's a trying time to be a marketer. And I saw the. A headline the other day that, you know, there's a little bit of downward pressure again on CMO tenure. Not. Not shocking. Yeah. So, yeah, listen, again, I guess. I guess my headline is. It's an interesting time, but it's not.
- [29:19]
B
You're not bored? Yeah.
- [29:20]
A
You're not bored.
- [29:21]
B
It's a little chaotic, but there is, but it's. It's better than not nothing. Nothing interesting on your life.
- [29:26]
A
That's right.
- [29:26]
B
All right, Matt, awesome stuff. We could talk about this forever, but thanks so much for your time. A great conversation. Let's. Let's do it. Again down the road.
- [29:32]
A
Sounds good. Mike, good to see you.
- [29:33]
B
Thanks again to my guest this week, transunions, Matt Spiegel. My partners in A10IQ. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button and we'll see you next time for more. What's next in media. Thanks for listening.