← Next in Media
Loading summary
Transcript57 lines
- [00:00]
A
Both the industry and the business is booming. It's been really exciting to see the growth. We were obviously very big before we got acquired, and we're seeing massive multiples of growth since then. Every single brand is different. But where we've seen the most success has been a center of excellence, led in large part by media. The reason why Influencer marketing is a $35 billion with a B TAM is because it is working. Now the question is, can you measure how it's working and apply that to the best allocation of dollars? Listen, AI is not a dirty word. It has to be an augmentative or a tool as opposed to being just faceless, nameless accounts that are just putting out clickbait and misinformation. I'm supporting a human that happens to have AI as an amplification or augmentation. AI will solve a lot of the backroom speed and efficiency plays to be able to get things done faster between an agency and a brand or between. I care most about in terms of where I think and I think where consumers are going to spend their focus and be the most excited about a brand is when the name, image and likeness the nil of a creator. Even if they were to give it out to a larger model to do something which has guardrails on it, they are getting compensated for that. And they're saying, I endorse this.
- [01:14]
B
This week on Next Immediate, I caught up with Ryan Dieter, CEO of Influential. The last time Ryan and I talked, Influential was an independent agency focused on creators. That was before Publicis paced a $500 million bet on the company aimed at accelerating brand work in the creator economy. So Ryan and I talked about how that's going and where creator advertising fits in the traditional agency model. Ryan also gave us the Latest on the US version of TikTok, whether ad tech and creator integrations can coexist. Let's get started. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Nexting Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Ryan Dietard. He is the CEO of Influential. Hey, Ryan, thanks for being here.
- [01:46]
A
Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me on.
- [01:49]
B
I'm excited to have you. You were on the show a couple years ago and suddenly you were acquired. So obviously that there. You can make the connection there. But I wanted to talk to you, give us like the latest. You guys are part of Publicis. What is the latest on the company and where you sit? You're still here. Which is. Which is a good sign. What's going on?
- [02:09]
A
Yeah, it's been fantastic. We got Acquired in mid to late 2024 and immediately saw massive growth. As part of publicist, we also acquired Captivate last summer as well.
- [02:25]
B
Yeah.
- [02:26]
A
Really to build out the global offering of technology services, measurement all in one place. And the business, both the industry and the business is booming. It's been really exciting to see the growth. We were obviously very big before we got acquired and we're seeing massive multiples of growth since then.
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, I mean you obviously hit the, the timing is, is perfect. Right. That the market was coming to recognize the importance of the creator space more than ever. But these things can go, can go wrong. Right. Like it seems like it's, it's like you've gotten what you needed to keep growing and, and, and adding to the pieces that you need.
- [03:04]
A
I will say I, we, we jumped into the, the arms of the lion. They were also growing exponentially. So I think it was just a, a mix of multiple great things happening. Winning a bunch of new business together, having, assisting, having tremendous clients even before that. So you know, it's. We. I've heard about horror stories. It's been fantastic for us and we're really excited for the future.
- [03:27]
B
Nice. On that note, I mean I think the people are wondering this is all happening. Obviously the creators have been important for a number of years, but they've really come to a. This category has come to a head in the last couple years with brands like really upping, upping their spending and recognizing their importance. It seems like there's still some, I don't know, it's debate, but just like where do agencies put you put these guys is something that is up for discussion. Have you figured out like, you know where that, where that is going? Is there a right way to do it? Is there going to always going to be a specialty group, the media group, creative? Where is it going to? Where should things fit?
- [04:05]
A
Every single brand is different. But where we've seen the most success has been a center of excellence led in large part by media. Because there's downloads we put to amplify the content both on social and off social. But step one is making sure that the teams can speak together. That's hence why we acquired Captivate technology. We integrated as well all of that to be able to have content, pr, comms, sponsorship, every possible group all have the same source of truth as opposed to many of them operate in disparate teams. Even with even clients we have today, we have been elevating and augmenting things they've had just for years with other, you know, parts of their business or other, other other partners and just really how do, how do you make it so that everyone has the same sheet to, to work off of same knowledge?
- [04:55]
B
Yeah. Cause it sounds like. Yeah, I think in some cases I get your. Every brand is going to be different. In some cases you're almost putting creators side by side with like the, the CTV television spend. In some cases the, the creators are so tied into the brand's identity that they're part of the creative team. But it seems like the media media needs to drive this in some fashion.
- [05:15]
A
And really as you think about the upside of using creators the name, image and likeness, whether it's on social or off social, over delivers or outperforms BAU business as usual content. So why would you just simply think of it as a native post and let it live just for that period of time on that person's feedback when you can in fact have it live other places amplify it accordingly. Digital, out of home, ctv, gas station tv, programmatic, you know, before movies. Through ncms a number of ways you can have the content that performs the best. And the best part about, you know, social, it's essentially a giant lab. It's like it's the testing mechanism to see what performs best and then applying that to the audience you want to speak to wherever they live is the course of the day.
- [06:03]
B
What are your thoughts? You mentioned like you how technology is important part of what you're doing. You're not just like I think some, I'm generalizing some, some influencer agencies just have a lot of relationships, maybe not a lot of tech. Others are different. There's a, you know, there's an ongoing discussion about how, how much tech can play a role in rolling and scaling this business where it's not, it's not display, it's not going to ever be like that. Right. But it's, everybody wants to make it a little bit faster and scalable. Like what, what role should tech or ad tech play here?
- [06:34]
A
The good news is that the democratization of access to creators a few years ago became anyone can access any creator if they really want to. Certain, certain companies are behind the times. They don't have any technology. But you know, having 15 million plus careers like we do, if you want to speak to anyone, it's not hard for us to DM them, to notify them through all different mechanisms. I think that like there's a few kind of key elements that technology has changed the game. The one that's the least sexy but the most important is Brand safety, Hippocratic oath, do no harm. The power of influencer marketing can both make your brand or break it. Depending on how you think about the vetting of the creators, assessing their online real world reputation as well as criminal records. We are checking for profanity, nudity, hate speech, all of those things that, that first surface level or first base level is to make sure that there's no negative impact.
- [07:32]
B
And you gotta rely on tech to do that. Like you can't just have a couple interns running around looking.
- [07:36]
A
Correct. Yeah. To be able to look through the entire time and Thailand history of 15 million plus creators, that would be enough time in the world for any person to do that.
- [07:44]
B
Right.
- [07:45]
A
And it does require that technology to flag it and then a human to make sure. Yeah, it's within the. And every brand's the same. Some brand says I want to be so G rated that anything that even resembles a political post, that person. It depends on kind of where each brand is and their kind of perception or their, their life cycle. And then from there you have. How do you then you know it's a space shuttle Launch, you're launching 10, 20, 100 creators in a very short time period with dozens of, dozens of pieces of content potentially per creator, depending on the size and scope of the business. You now have a requirement for the brand or the people that are approving this to be able to have a dashboard, to be able to look through this and make assessments very quickly, very organized to have all that kind of that, that you know, the, the rundown of what has transpired in the past, legal review, all of that. If it's not technology, it's literally impossible
- [08:37]
B
it would require because otherwise you're in the, that you're stuck in that everything is a one off bespoke thing. Not that you won't have really customized partnerships.
- [08:46]
A
Right.
- [08:46]
B
But you, you're going to limit yourself if you can't limit brands potential in this space. If you can't have something like that.
- [08:52]
A
Correct. And in order to have what is incredibly important, which is an always on creator strategy, you have to have technology to see what you have in the past. Yeah, it's essentially, it's just a funnel. You're, you're working through review of briefs, creator assessment and suggestions and then having those people go live with contracts, all of that has to happen.
- [09:14]
B
Speaking of tech and ad tech, you go to. It's funny, I was at Architecture Live a couple weeks ago and that was. Yeah, it's a heavy ad tech crowd. Everyone is talking about Performance advertising and trying to make everything kind of operate like retail media for example. And the creator space is so different not that it's not performant but it's I wonder if you are you getting pressure to figure out how this stuff fits in and outcomes based era when so much of what you're what creators offer is like this authenticity and this stuff that's hard to kind of quantify.
- [09:49]
A
The reason why influencer marketing is a $35 billion with a B TAM is because it is working. Now the question is can you measure how it's working and apply to the best allocation of dollars. Where we got special back in probably 20152016 when the paid media elements became available on the social platforms and really mandatory to hit your entire audiences we were able to innovate and partner with series of everyone from at the time was Iri and Alex Arkana Nielsen's of the world partners TB Tune in partners and we actually started to build the framework to measure the efficacy both online and offline. The people seen that post after doing that they walk into a store at the register and buy XYZ CPG product. So that is a huge part of not just what makes us special but also the growth of the of the spend by brands as they can now both see the results and also to be stat sig this is a stat sign for market and the the ability to measure it. You have to spend significant amounts of money a lot of times for those offline sales. On the online side you could do it for much cheaper but also depends on whether or not you're looking at a paid ad clickout link a link in bio reference ID code. All of that is measurable but it all leads back to I think many brands are tapping into finally is seeing that in their mmms the creators are not just pr.
- [11:12]
B
That was. That was actually one of my questions. You hear. You hear a lot from that the there's a renaissance for MMMs and brands are I guess they're easier and quicker to use but then you hear different sectors of the industry say well I don't like mmms. Don't make us look good. You know you hear that from like the retail media guys and I think creators is one of those where you oh are they good at that? Is that going to. Are you finding there there's a role there or do you have to say to brands like well there's a lot of intangibles when you're trying to evaluate the space.
- [11:40]
A
The demand is there for it and we're seeing largely good results and some the best in like the mix of the, of the different results and pieces. I guess the reason why what we take a look at is whether it performs well or not. That's the point of the mm. We want to see how it's performing but to be able to quantify and assess. So for example, creators is not just some nebulous concept. There is per meta, per TikTok, per the appropriate platforms for the creators. The are you putting paid behind it? Is it only native? That change is also being made. Is it being used in digital out of home and ctv? That's a different part of it. So all of those things have to be quantified and then you can say well of all the creator allocations I'm doing, you know what really majority of the money is or majority of the value is actually more on the paid side with the creative on social media, less the out of home. All right, stop. One home piece. I'll put more there. Or vice versa. Hey, I'm actually in the grocery stores using you know, ad, ad ad units that are happening in real life.
- [12:43]
B
All right, you mentioned a couple of the platforms. Let's talk about YouTube. I think the last time we chatted, you know that we were just kind of like wrapping our heads around how big YouTube was getting on TV. Now it's, you know, they're, they're a dominant player and you see the, the other big, their, their big competitors in short form. Instagram and TikTok are trying to crack TV viewing. And so I guess my question is how, how has the YouTube on TV thing maybe changed the way you work with brands and creators and then what do you think of the other guys trying to get in that world? It's a big question.
- [13:13]
A
I'll make a blanket statement. I think that every single platform has fomo. They wish they were their had the competitors like short form or long form. I will say that YouTube's been the most consistent as the dominant long form player because they pay the creators the most amount of share and most amount of money. And if I am a creator today, I will get more annuity revenue in my life probably from a YouTube if I create really great long form video. But what you don't get obviously is the, you know, meteoric rise that happens overnight. That's more of a TikTok play, Instagram play. So they all, they've all kind of found different things they want to be best at and they all want to, you know, meta is a massive messaging platform essentially dm's and that stuff does not exist as much on TikTok. So I think every one of them go after that. I will say that all of them are going to play for attention and the attention is not going to just simply be on the phone. It's going to be in more integrated whether it's. And it's finite whether it's the headsets, whatever version.
- [14:14]
B
Yeah, right.
- [14:15]
A
The screen is almost irrelevant. It's just the delivery mechanism and how people you know when you go to TikTok you think of as entertainment joyful platform. Instagram's more aspirational, YouTube's more informational or more like, you know, familials where I go see my people I've watched for 20 years, they on YouTube. So each one has a certain POV from a consumer. They can all shift that accordingly and with the amount of money that is that's available on the linear front, as it shifts more and more into other places, they're all, they're all going to, they're all going to play for their. The piece of the puff.
- [14:44]
B
Yeah. All those things you described would, would theoretically play on TV aspirational or entertainment. It's just I guess it's about the execution and you got, you got to train people that that's what they're looking for on television which is just, it's different for it's. TikTok has always been a phone thing for example.
- [14:58]
A
Yeah. And then there's also the buy apartment watching when people go live. Obviously TikTok Live has been a big boon sure for them not, not necessarily from shopping yet but shopping is coming soon. But just even the gifting platforms. If you want anyone listening familiar with the billions of dollars being made so public information of the gifting that happens on these people that battle each other, go live. So just every platform has a live strategy, every platform has a TV strategy and a lot of those things coalesce into one strategy.
- [15:26]
B
Looking to get more out of your YouTube advertising? With view Planner you can buy with total confidence and clarity. View Planner is a verified YouTube brand, suitability and contextual targeting partner in the YouTube measurement program. Recognized by Google as a trusted independent leader in driving and measuring performance on YouTube, their advanced technology gives you a clear edge. Only with ViewPlanner we're talking custom curated contextual collections, exclusive content strategies, transparent reporting and AI driven optimization to deliver real results. Don't let your budget go to waste. Partner with View Planner and experience the difference. Visit viewplanner.com now to unlock your full advertising potential on YouTube. That's V U E P L A N N E R.com okay, getting back to the creator world. Right. You kind of hinted at this. There have been a lot of reports coming out. The space is getting. The TAM is huge, the dollars are there. But it's kind of top heavy right now. Like yeah, every brand starts with those top 10 they know or that seems to be. Seems to be a challenge for them to dip deeper into the middle of the. What do you call the micro influencers or something else. How do brands need to start thinking broader, deeper and how do they get there?
- [16:42]
A
I will say majority of brands have figured out their always on creator strategy which usually includes sometimes as low as nano but micro macro size talent. Top creators we really deliver based on the client needs. We are the purveyors alongside with Forbes. Forbes is a top creator list that we curate with them every year. Year four now so that that's the top 50 earners. And then they also put their own journalistic and editorial spin on or lens to figure out what were the best autocracy for that year. That starts first and foremost with creators defining how much they make. And those people may be the, you know the, the Mr. Beast and the Alex Coopers of the world that make you know, nine figures probably. So those people still remain incredibly valuable. They're essentially super bowl spots in their own mediums. Yeah. So definitely think that things are a play. But if you want to see the greatest ROI normally at least based on a bet over course of the course of the year, if you've got $2 million to spend today with a major creator or a hundred smaller creators normally just based on how if you have a general audience of just anyone that will has a mouth then maybe that's the case to go with Mr. Beast. But if you want to go after like moms, the Midwest and then before diy you have to identify those micro creators that will drive the lower CPM because they're actually in the audience you care about.
- [18:09]
B
Yeah. It's actually not unlike if you're going to spend 5 million bucks, you could buy one Super bowl ad or you know, go deep on a million different cable networks. Actually this is just a little different. Okay, what about obviously another big topic. You got to talk about AI. Of course there's the. A couple of things. There's like the rise of the. There's. There are fears about AI slop and I wonder if brands are worried about that or they don't care as long as people are enjoying that and then, you know, there's the whole like AI creator thing that I'm, I still have trouble wrapping my head around. But let's take those one by one. What's your, what's the feeling about slop right now among brands?
- [18:50]
A
Yeah, well, step one, most every brand has requested it and we provide it that it's full transparency. Any content made it for branded content. Any content made by creator. That's denoted both in the platforms but also by them saying, I do don't use AI. Listen, AI is not a dirty word. It has to be an augmentative or you know, a tool as opposed to being just faceless, nameless accounts that are just putting out, you know, clickbait and you know, misinformation, all that kind of stuff. I think what we're going to see is, and it's think about as a consumer, if, if, if I'm going to go look at an AI channel and I know it's AI, it's probably because it's attached to a human or a concept or narrative that feels like a storyline that's human, not just a bunch of random things.
- [19:36]
B
It didn't come out of nowhere like someone had some, made some decisions about what was going to be shown there.
- [19:42]
A
So that will drive me as a consumer to go watch that. If someone, you know, is a creator that I watch especially as they grow and AI becomes more available for them and they use it better, they can create amazing worlds where they're at the center of it and things that were big budget movies they couldn't have done, you know, five years ago. Then again, I'm supporting a human that happens to have AI as an amplification or augmentation. So I think ultimately brands today and in the future will be fine with AI as long as it's compensating humans for their ideas and humanity. And then it's not going to be something where there's going to be interstitial in between a bunch of, as they call it, AI slop, which could be any series of clickbait style, you know, everything from cute baby animals to political stuff, all that stuff. Like that's the problem I think people have is the nameless, faceless version. But we're going to, we are moving towards a scenario where AI and human are going to combine, preferably with the credit going to those that have the concepts and not just lost to like some LLM.
- [20:46]
B
Now what about the idea that creators will eventually will be able to use AI tech to put, you know, use their likeness will be employed for a thousand videos beyond you know, beyond that they, that they could produce on their own and that and brands could be part of that or not. Is that a good thing? Scary?
- [21:02]
A
I think, I think that's, I think that's a good thing in terms of scale and a lot of times for I'm sure like the first version will be like for ad formats that would exist, you know, across these different platforms. Maybe less on the social the, so like the, the main feed right away but it could, could affect that. I, I think the mo. Like where I I all those are TBD in terms of the evolution of when those get allowed by both the brands as well as the consumers. I care most about in terms of where I think and I think where consumers are going to spend their focus and be the most excited about a brand is when the name, image and likeness the nil of a creator, even if they were to give it out to a larger model to do something which has guardrails on it, they are getting compensated for that. And they're saying I endorse this. You can use my, my face, my mannerisms, my voice. I think that's a few years from now in terms of when they can essentially license that the way you can
- [21:56]
B
license and, and are do we know that people are going to be okay with that or not? Like, I don't, I don't know. Are consumers going to care that this was a fake dude, perfect video that felt real or I, I don't.
- [22:06]
A
I, I, I think, I think the, the ultimate test is you have to ask the question. If the consumer saw the denotation that says AI content in the top left of a combat or something, would they feel duped? Would they feel as though this is something that is not, you know, authentic to the people that they see otherwise? And I think as time goes on, as long as it's like and then maybe tags might change. Tags might evolve to like AI augmented versus like complete. Like you know.
- [22:37]
B
Yeah. So they want people to make the distinction.
- [22:40]
A
It's going to require some, some like, you know, evolution of the platforms and the consumer pieces. But I think for right now like the brands aren't asking us to go make 50 videos of XYZ creator, you know, with AI that's just not the request because yeah, it's not currently used for it. And also the fear that it, if it was denoted that people would have a negative impact means as why it's not ready yet to be in our feeds every day.
- [23:06]
B
Now you, you mentioned a Couple a couple of times Use the phrase always on as being a where you're trying to push brands. What about you're starting to see a lot more creators talk about seasons and episodic shows and you know, doing upfronty type things. Is that only is are you participating in those kind of conversations and is that only going to be for like you know, the top 1% that is doing stuff like that?
- [23:31]
A
Predominantly where the budget goes will be those places. But it's kind of it's happening today anyway. Where I am X, Y Z micro macro creator have a few hundred thousand followers on any given one of these platforms.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah.
- [23:45]
A
And I'm a get ready with me creator and that's my and the pitch offering is a GRWM around my crazy family life and how I get ready in the morning. Like that's something that people are kind of creating as an episode and saying I can that thing I do every day. You can now have a so it's happening organically already. And when I say the always on scenario it's mainly a nod to brands that think super bowl. You know, you know summertime, you know, Christmas tentpole mentality. Yeah. Holidays. The yes. But if you miss those in between parts your competition's eating your lunch and how do you have that always on beat or that it could be the same creator. You have a series of five creators that all year long making content just don't you know, don't go dark for six months.
- [24:36]
B
Because I I for what I most at least of the established creators they they don't want to do a lot of one off things. Right. They prefer to they're pushing towards longer deals.
- [24:45]
A
100% the and it's been for multiple years and it was also efficiencies for a brand. If you get someone for a year like you can say hey like I'm a one off price. I'm. I can get a bundle deal and across multiple platforms and then they actually you know integrate that product truly in their lives and then people feel the authenticity.
- [25:03]
B
Sure. All right. Last thing is you know I'll ask you to be forecaster here. We talk about this moment you're in and this huge amount of excitement. The TAM is huge. Lots to lots of groundwork to be like where. Where is creative marketing in like three to five years? What are what are maybe people underestimating
- [25:19]
A
the space creators are everywhere and that will continue to be the case where in every medium digital, out of home, CTV et cetera they will be more prevalent. Measurements will continue to be top of the list. We've already solved a good portion of it. There's always more to be solved in terms of what is available from the platforms. I think there'll be more integrations there and then yes the I think the first version that AI solves and we've used AI for sourcing for years and we couldn't do without it. And same with brand safety. AI will solve a lot of the back back room speed and efficiency plays to be able to get things done faster between, you know, an agency and a brand or anyone in between. And then I think while the AI content is like the best headline, we're still in this uncanny valley almost about to break it. But like people can still determine it's AI, it still hasn't been adopted by a majority of influencers yet. When that happens might be a moment but that's something that still completely yeah
- [26:28]
B
the operational stuff, the back end stuff will have a bigger impact than in the near term it seems like to really grow the space. And I'm Ryan, awesome stuff. Love to chat with you. Let's do this again some time. Congratulations on the success.
- [26:40]
A
Thanks Mike. Appreciate it. You too.
- [26:43]
B
Thanks again to my guest this week, influentials Ryan Dieter and my partners at View Planner. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's next in media.
- [26:55]
A
Thanks for listening.