Should Brands Care More about Sports, Creators, or Creators Who Care About Sports

Summary

Next in Media: Should Brands Care More about Sports, Creators, or Creators Who Care About Sports
Released on June 4, 2025
Host: Mike Shields
Guest: Paul Wilmington, CEO of Canvas Worldwide

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Introduction

In the June 4, 2025 episode of Next in Media, host Mike Shields engages in a compelling discussion with Paul Wilmington, the CEO of Canvas Worldwide. The conversation delves into the evolving landscape of media, marketing, and advertising, particularly focusing on the rising prominence of sports and creators. As technology and data continue to reshape the industry, Wilmington provides valuable insights into how brands can navigate these changes to optimize their strategies.

The Dominance of Sports in Media

The episode kicks off with an analysis of the recent upfronts, where sports took center stage. Paul Wilmington observes that sports have become a critical anchor for media platforms, significantly influencing live viewership and cultural engagement.

Paul Wilmington [05:18]: "Sport is going to, it's almost, I mean sport used to be treated by the networks almost as a separate entity but obviously it's their leverage, so to speak. You know, so they really integrated sport into the totality of their upfront."

Wilmington emphasizes that sports not only drive live viewership but also create enduring cultural moments that brands can tap into. The integration of sports into media upfronts signifies its growing importance as a central marketing focus.

The Creator Economy and Its Challenges

Shifting focus, the conversation explores the burgeoning creator economy and its intersection with sports. Wilmington highlights the complexity of balancing authentic creator content with scalable, data-driven strategies.

Paul Wilmington [21:39]: "The beauty relative to our size is that we are involved in global. So FIFA World Cup, we're in national, like NBA, NFL, MLS, et cetera, et cetera."

He points out the challenge of maintaining authenticity in the creator space while leveraging technology to scale influencer marketing effectively. The discussion underscores the potential of micro-influencers in driving localized and authentic brand engagements, a strategy that Canvas Worldwide is keen to exploit.

The Current Economic Climate and Its Impact on Media Planning

Addressing the broader economic uncertainties, Wilmington discusses how factors like tariffs and fluctuating consumer sentiment are influencing media planning and budget allocations.

Paul Wilmington [12:26]: "I think a lot of the deal making will be not just how much money, but also the flexibility."

He notes that in a softer buyer’s market, flexibility becomes paramount. Brands are increasingly seeking adaptable media strategies that can respond swiftly to economic shifts, highlighting the need for outcome-based planning over rigid commitments.

The Importance of Outcome-Based Planning and Data Storytelling

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the shift from traditional metrics to outcome-based planning. Wilmington introduces the concept of the "data storyteller," a role that bridges the gap between complex data analytics and actionable business insights.

Paul Wilmington [17:12]: "We are creating a new discipline called the data storyteller...They have the EQ to be able to do that. They're able to actually work across the organization and down and up the organization."

This approach emphasizes a holistic understanding of the customer journey, integrating various metrics to provide a comprehensive view of campaign effectiveness. By advocating for data storytellers, Canvas Worldwide aims to enhance internal alignment and optimize client strategies through cohesive narrative-driven analysis.

The Role of AI and Technology in Media Agencies

The discussion then shifts to the impact of AI and technology on media agencies. Wilmington contrasts Canvas Worldwide’s agile structure with the more cumbersome processes of large holding companies.

Paul Wilmington [23:15]: "No, but my impression is there's a lot of talk at the front end but a lot of the... we're going to protect that goddamn revenue."

He critiques the holding companies for their fragmented approaches and highlights Canvas Worldwide’s integrated model, which enables faster adaptation and more efficient use of technology. This flexibility positions Canvas as a formidable player capable of navigating the rapid technological advancements reshaping the industry.

Canvas Worldwide's Approach and Differentiation

Wilmington elaborates on how Canvas Worldwide differentiates itself through a combination of cultural alignment, technological innovation, and a focus on localized market engagement.

Paul Wilmington [29:12]: "I need to activate at a local level. I can understand that geography in a way that a 25-year-old planner in New York City could never understand it."

With six offices and a strong emphasis on understanding diverse geographical markets, Canvas leverages both global reach and local insights to create nuanced marketing strategies. This dual focus allows the agency to activate fandoms and engage audiences in a manner that is both scalable and authentic.

Conclusion

In wrapping up the conversation, Wilmington reflects on the profound cultural impact of sports and the transformative potential of integrating sports sponsorship with creator-driven content. He envisions a future where sport serves as a new form of communal engagement, akin to a modern-day religion, offering brands unparalleled opportunities to connect with diverse audiences.

Paul Wilmington [30:25]: "What does it mean to be a planner today in an ad agency? And it makes the difference."

Mike Shields and Paul Wilmington conclude with a mutual appreciation for the dynamic nature of the media industry, emphasizing the need for adaptability and innovative thinking in the face of ongoing technological and cultural shifts.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mike Shields [03:36]: "If you didn't know any better, you'd say it was the 90s in the way, in some of the ways they execute these things."

• Paul Wilmington [09:34]: "We've got a new red carpet, haven't we? The red carpet is now, you know, the WNBA, wonderful women coming into the stadia..."

• Paul Wilmington [17:12]: "We are creating a new discipline called the data storyteller...They have the EQ to be able to do that."

• Paul Wilmington [21:39]: "The beauty relative to our size is that we are involved in global. So FIFA World Cup, we're in national, like NBA, NFL, MLS, et cetera, et cetera."

• Paul Wilmington [30:25]: "What does it mean to be a planner today in an ad agency? And it makes the difference."

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This episode of Next in Media offers a deep dive into the strategic considerations brands must weigh when choosing between leveraging sports, creators, or the intersection of both. Paul Wilmington’s insights provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities of modern media landscapes, emphasizing the importance of flexibility, data-driven storytelling, and authentic audience engagement.

Transcript

[Mike Shields]

Your brand needs positive attention. And Rembrandt demonstrated through exclusive research with Next to Media, that attention can be a leading indicator of performance. Find out more about this innovative approach and how to use AI to generate positive attention with Rembrand. Visit www.rembrand.com next to media to learn more. This week on Next iMedia, I spoke with Canvas CEO Paul Wilmington. Got his take on the recent upfronts and new fronts, plus the huge emphasis on sports. This year, Paul and I talked about how brands are assessing this buyer's market amidst tariff whiplash, while also trying to balance outcomes with cultural clout and whether CFOs really get creators at all. Let's get started. Hi, everybody. Welcome to nexty Media. I'm Mike Shields and I'm here with Paul Wilmington. He's the CEO of Canvas Worldwide. Hey, Paul, thanks for being here.

[Paul Wilmington]

Thank you for having me. It's great to be reconnected.

[Mike Shields]

Yes. So much to talk about. I wanted to catch you. The upfront new front season is sort of fresh in everyone's mind still. It's an interesting time to be holding these events in general. But I want to ask you your overall impression. You know, I felt like, to me it was. This is not stating anything brilliant, but there's no longer in a place where we're talking about all. All the big shows and lineups. It was very sports dominant andor creator centric.

[Paul Wilmington]

What were your.

[Mike Shields]

What were your overall impressions of what. What that signified?

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah, I think we're at this wonderful. I know people use the cliche inflection point, and these inflection points aren't a specific moment in time, but clearly what you've had is the maturation of what we call the platforms, you know, the challengers, so to speak. And then obviously you have the pivots that the incumbents are going through. So I think it's a really interesting time to be an anthropologist in media, look at, obviously, the species growing in different modes. So, yes, I think it makes for a fascinating upfront if you kind of step back and analyze it. So in no particular order, yes, you are seeing everything digital. You're seeing a plethora of playing to your strengths. So obviously the creator economy, you know, the emphasis obviously of that in a YouTube world. And let's face it, YouTube is depending on which month, you know, the number one viewing platform across all video. And obviously they're coming at it from a different disposition. And of course, what's fascinating about them and Amazon in particular, is the fact that they are so omnichannel and obviously not necessarily even a factor in the upfronts, but they're very important businesses to us outside of the upfront as well as in the upfront. But obviously how they are weaving those narratives together and the predominance with YouTube in particular on the creator economy, and obviously their stars are emergent stars. This whole emergent discipline, if you like, of creators, and we can come back to that, versus, as you say, the incumbents that are obviously pivoting in an omnichannel world as well in a digital world, but really still feel a little bit like, you know, the playbook of the past. But what was fascinating is that everyone uses a similar playbook, isn't it? The big grand hall filled with theater, Lady Gaga at one end of the spectrum, you know.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. If you didn't know any better, you'd say it was the 90s in the way, in some of the ways they execute these things.

[Paul Wilmington]

I had a little anecdote I used. Jimmy Kimmel is obviously the best roast of the up fronts. Seth does a roast on the NBC stage. But really, Jimmy has become a master of the roast of the industry. And I thought, you know, actually, normally, you know, it's quite fun and you laugh at yourself and you laugh at the industry and all the rest of it, but it was kind of apocryphal because obviously what he's saying is kind of.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, it's like it stings a little bit.

[Paul Wilmington]

Moment of kind of. Oh, my goodness, Jimmy. We used to laugh at it in, you know, maybe five or six years ago, but this is happening in front.

[Mike Shields]

Of our eyes, right? Yeah. It doesn't feel as it's funny, but it's like, oh, God, what do we do here?

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah. And the 800 pound gorilla, you know, thank you. Obviously, yes, sport is the anchor of everybody now, you know, across the spectrum. So you're right, it has. I wouldn't say it dominated. I would say it had the lion's share. It had the lion's share. There were still the shows, you know, there was still homage to Star wars. There was still Bob Iger, There was still discussions, even Amazon talking about, you know, MGM Studios and the fact that they're still, you know, a production powerhouse and, you know, the quality of the content, you know, they were interwoven into it. But I, I completely get the point you're making, is that sport has become this critical aspect of live. It obviously spawns culture. It obviously has close associations. So obviously at one end of the spectrum and Obviously we now have, you know, the live first game in Brazil that they're going to.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, they're going to do. They made their first NFL deal. That's a big splash.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah. And I, I think they had Roger Goodell on stage for the second year in a row. So obviously, I mean Roger wants it. So there's this lovely symbiosis because obviously YouTube is a median age of 38, which is a bit of a weird median age. What does median age mean? Because YouTube is so younger than, than obviously let's say your, your, your median age of cable news is 70 plus. So obviously it's the symbiosis if wanting younger viewers to be fans and engage in obviously those. So there's an incredible symbiosis. But a lot of what YouTube talk about is obviously the associated creator economy that sits around sport. Whereas a lot of the other platforms we're talking about sport as the core element.

[Mike Shields]

That's what. Yeah.

[Paul Wilmington]

X number of.

[Mike Shields]

We are the rights holder week that we are showing you the broadcast versus we're around the game. Yeah.

[Paul Wilmington]

And of course we know, you know, NFL is the. Within an 800 pound gorilla of, of sport. They're the 700 pound gorilla, so to speak.

[Mike Shields]

They're the biggest gorilla of the gorillas.

[Paul Wilmington]

And they're now, you know what's interesting is my team did a wonderful grid of where obviously each of the sports franchises is available. They're available on seven platforms now, you know, Leo and obviously.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah.

[Paul Wilmington]

Everything else, all their other associations, whether it's X or I'm talking about know kind of live games being played. But that, that's another whole topic altogether. But sport is going to, it's almost, I mean sport used to be treated by the networks almost as a separate entity but obviously it's their leverage, so to speak. You know, so they really integrated sport into the totality of their upfront. Sport used to have different timelines. If you know, sometimes the sports seasons didn't necessarily always.

[Mike Shields]

It was a different ad market, almost different.

[Paul Wilmington]

Not an ad market to itself but obviously strategically you can understand obviously everyone's got cost economies. Do we really need a sports team? Do we need a team just selling the Olympics and, or the super bowl and you know our franchise position. So obviously in a buyer's market, in a softer marketplace, their leverage with sport is obviously. It's just obvious, isn't it?

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, yeah. I mean because not only are sports the only thing that are like the light, it's only thing we. Where people are watching live or to the fortunately in large numbers, but it seems to be, it is the last like common cultural thing that we share. Aside from. It's like the generation gap of you go to the YouTube upfronts and if you're, you're a certain age, you don't know who these people are, but they are huge to those, to that generation. I wonder if that has got to be challenging for you, you and your brands to figure out, okay, not that you're going to. You have to pick one or the other, but how do we reconcile being part of the NFL and these huge events that are live versus like this creator world where, you know, they're huge and the numbers bear that out, but they are just a different animal.

[Paul Wilmington]

No, that's really a great question. I think the excitement is that actually you can dimensionalize it and the entry price can be different. So in the old days the entry price was very high because there was a limited supply. There's so much more supply of sports generally. So your entry price can be different. You can have a long term view on supporting a sport that you can develop. But what I meant is, you know, the planning opportunity is. Marketing was always complex. It was always lots of different channels, techniques and disciplines coming together. And I think sport is like a microcosm of obviously the atomization. So I think it's actually an exciting time. How do you activate fandoms pre and post game as opposed to in the game? I mean, obviously the lucrative element that people look for is that mass reach within a live experience where you're all passionately, you know, there's passion, there's fandom, there's the live aspect of it, which is very potent. But actually the pre and post or sports influence on culture, you know, we've got a new red carpet, haven't we? The red carpet is now, you know, the wnba, wonderful women coming into the stadia, or the NFL players who historically they had helmets on so you didn't know who they were. They're expressing themselves now, you know about.

[Mike Shields]

Their fashion choices, their relationships, Jason's spaces.

[Paul Wilmington]

In the way that you can tap into culture as well as sport and adjacency is really interesting. So really what I'm saying is, you know, the same idea of using different techniques, using different methodologies, different platforms to tell your brand story. And I think that's so exciting to be in the media business or to be at Canvas, to obviously plan that to be a brand, to be thinking of the different roles. So I almost flip it on his head. I think it's actually a more exciting time than it ever was before where, you know, it was the sponsor bumper and you were the official sponsor or you had your particular franchise slot and you were kind of hemmed in to some degree. Whereas now I think you can kind of liberate it out. And the last thing I think is why sport is powerful. Not just it has, you know, often long seasons, you know, that you're not just buying into a show or a. You know, obviously that. That is quite potent for a lot of marketeers. That association over a period of time building. The last thing I would say, I. I totally get what you're talking about. Creators. What I've been fascinated and what I mean, Canvas has a superpower around. We've got a number of superpowers. We describe them as powers, but, you know, sport happens to be one. And the beauty relative to our size is that we are involved in global. So FIFA World cup, we're in national, like NBA, NFL, mls, et cetera, et cetera. But we also, because of our tentacles, we actually have six offices and we're very involved in geography as well. From many of our clients, we're activating around teams. So it's. And then teams and fandoms. Because really, do we really follow the NFL or do we follow the Kansas Chiefs?

[Mike Shields]

Right. Some people do, but yeah, you're right, most people are passionate about their. Their favorites, their local teams, a little.

[Paul Wilmington]

Bit of a combination. But you kind of associate yourself often with your geography, often with a fan base, and you don't have to live in that geography. But I think that that's another aspect that is sometimes ignored. We talk about these big. But I think how do you drive that activation into local markets to the.

[Mike Shields]

Way that people really live and interact with their sports?

[Paul Wilmington]

Exactly.

[Mike Shields]

I want to come back to that. But I want to ask you, overall, you mentioned it's a, you know, something of a softer or buyer's market, potentially. It was already a, you know, a unusual time in that we've got this uncertainty in the market with tariffs and global economy. Now you and I are recording this and things got even weirder where the tariffs are maybe blocked, but I don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know if anybody any of us know what does this all do to newer. Trying to figure out how to plan a couple months out, six months out, trying to make decisions on budgets. Is this. What is this climate like?

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah, I think there is a degree of, of course, what are the big headlines? Uncertainty, flexibility, being able to adapt to any of the circumstances, whether it be tariffs or economic climate. I mean, they're all kind of somewhat interlinked. Ultimately, I think what happened was that early aggressive move around tariffs did create more uncertainty. And I'm using this as a metaphor, but the CFO was stepping in in a large degree. I think a lot of, I mean talking very much across the spectrum, I think there was that, you know, let's be a bit more cautious going into this marketplace. I think we're seeing a little bit of more confidence. And of course we're watching not just the tariffs, we're a bit worried about where the economy will go, but we're also. It's like consumer sentiment is, has been pretty low as well. Yeah, the two things aren't always 100% connected, but they are economic factors that we look at. So where I'm going with it is I think the CFO stepped in and I think what it did was it created more caution moving into the marketplace. So I think a lot of the deal making will be not just how much money, but also the flexibility. I mean there's always flexibility in the upfront, but I think that's going to be the name of the game is the flexibility. And of course it's in the best interest of the, the incumbents and the large is because obviously we know that in economic uncertain times flexibility can mean. Well, let's move to media that can be more immediately turned on a little bit more at the bottom.

[Mike Shields]

We saw that in Covid.

[Paul Wilmington]

Obviously that tends to be the shift and we've obviously seen that happen time and time again. And you don't have to be an economist to say, okay, well also like what are those harder working, quote unquote performance media. But I think that this is going to be a delicate balancing act of that upfront commitment with the flexibility that also with these other platforms, with the Amazons and the Googles and even the Disney's and NBC's, they're looking at outcomes now more than they've ever done before. So even though that wasn't a big theme of the upfront, we are having very, very strong conversations about outcomes. We're talking about obviously outcome based planning now, which I think is a good thing.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, you know, right. Almost everybody had a mentioned full funnel now and how we can, you know, like connect things across their different pieces. Is there a potential that we're going to be, you're going to have be pressured to almost go too far with everything has to be outcomes driven and the models have to say this is the right thing to do or no one, or we can't make any moves this year, or is there, is there a way to have that balancing act work in your favor?

[Paul Wilmington]

So we several years ago listened to the market, listened to clients, listened to what consultants were saying, and doubled down on a couple of ideas. And I will answer your question. The first was it's all about outcomes. So we have a process which is called an outcomes roadmap. And it starts with dissecting what the business issue is. So let's be honest, we're in the commercial creative, the commercial marketing world and commercial means that we have to drive an ultimate KPI. And then what there are is lots of different outcomes in specific areas that contribute to that whole. It's much, much more complex than a very blunt cpa. What's my position or cost per action or you know, high value action? That is a very important part of the lower part of the funnel. But obviously attribution. So what we've done is looked at all these different outcomes along this journey and that is a critical component of understanding the interrelationships between it. The second part of it is that we are creating a new discipline called the data storyteller. Because the frustration in our industry is as media atomized, so did every measurement and every outcome optimized. So every specific function has a justification for their existence and every platform. So I never got rich by knowing what the answer was. When I asked meta, what was the answer? They'll say meta. Now what was the question? It's Google now what was the question? If I go to NBC, they'll say it's NBC and it's the Olympics or it's now what was the question? And I'm not criticizing them for that, but everyone actually has. And if you look at every internal department, if you go to obviously the search department, they will say, well, we are judged on this. On website traffic. If you go to the social, we will say, well, we are judged on that.

[Mike Shields]

And by the way, we're really good at that. Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Wilmington]

And we're really good at that. So it was bottom up. So what happened is as atomized, everyone obviously created these bottom up measures, right? What we lack, and of course we've got more data, but what we're lacking is someone who can storytell and join the dots. So we believe that this new discipline is part business brain and part analytics brain. But they don't have to be the data scientists. They have to be the person that can actually join the Dots. And I think that's the best holistic way of doing integration. So it does two things. Firstly, it educates everybody internally, externally, clients. So there's a lot of alignment, there's a lot of storytelling going into the boardroom and not just necessarily relying on the crutch of a cpa because the bottom of the funnel guys are trying to go up the funnel. So they're trying to actually understand what it means to build a brand. They're getting disintermediated now, those guys who were the second, third wave of brands that are. But what I'm saying is they're trying to go up and obviously the incumbents are going down. So I think. And the data storyteller, I liken it to being like William Shakespeare. And it is, you know, like there's a prologue will explain where you are. You know, I'm a bit lost in this story.

[Mike Shields]

Oh, help me catch up here before we get started.

[Paul Wilmington]

And it's this kind of ability to then join the dots. And obviously it means that we are doubling and tripling down on attribution. We're looking at new models that link together a lot of these siloed measurements so that what we can look at is all the contributions. So what we don't do is default to the loudest voice in the room.

[Mike Shields]

Right, Right. Or the best, the best click through rate the last number you saw that impressed you.

[Paul Wilmington]

And we think it's a new discipline because what every client is telling me and they're saying we need it internally, is that the data storyteller can walk into the room with the C suite and explain to the C suite complex algorithms and things like that. In a communication, they have the EQ to be able to do that. They're able to actually work across the organization and down and up the organization.

[Mike Shields]

It does not sound like an easy role, but it seems like vitally important.

[Paul Wilmington]

But I think it's at the root of integration as well because then it actually, what you do get to is nirvana, which is then the balance between all of the different disciplines. And of course, bluntly, it's brand versus performance. Well, everything we say canvas isn't a performance media and I've been ranting about this, everything's performance. The entire funnel is we're performance mindset agency. We are a full funnel performance agency. We have amazing growth strategy. And by the way, growth. I mean people calling themselves I'm a growth agency. Are you nuts?

[Mike Shields]

We're not. We're actually not a growth agency. Yeah, we don't we don't really care about that.

[Paul Wilmington]

It's just the different attributes that come together to drive performance. So we call it performance mindset. And it means that everyone is in the business of growth, everyone's in the business of performance, but it just doesn't sit at the bottom of the funnel.

[Mike Shields]

Let me ask you, all the stuff you're describing makes sense. It seems we were coming back to the creator conversation. That seems inherently challenging for that piece of the pie. Because if unless you. I mean, there's the value in just exposure that creator media gives you, but so much of that seems less tangible or hard to quantify. Can so. And, and because you see, there's some people say, oh, well, they're under. We're under invested there because we can't do that. Is that a challenge? Is that something unique to that space? What do you do about it if there is.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah, no, I think it is a challenge. I mean, there's a dichotomy in it because obviously as we try and build algorithms and we try and programmatic the creator economy. I'm using that as a general term. That is obviously what a lot of people want to do because they want to scale these businesses. Yeah. Make it simpler, faster, made big acquisitions. Well, what do they want to do? They want to standardize, they want to tech, they want to use technology as obviously an underpinning of scaling this business. But inherently one of the beauties. You might kill the goose that laid the golden egg in the sense that the beauty of the creator economy is that they have authentic voices, they have followings that, you know, almost transcend a programmatic world. And, you know, I'm using programmatic.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, it's hard to atomize that stuff.

[Paul Wilmington]

So, yes, inherently there is a little bit of a dichotomy there. So I think it's the fine balance of being able to scale this for obviously monetary and economic reasons while still keeping the spirit of the essence of creators. And that is because they speak in their voice, they understand, and by osmosis, they understand what it means to build a 50 million following or even if you're a micro, you know. But what I'm really interested in is a technology that can scale. The micro influencers, I think, is also a really, you know, we, we look for these big superstars and they were on the YouTube stage, obviously people with hundreds of million following. And don't get me wrong, that's a part of it. But I think actually what's going to be even more powerful are these local, quite specific micro Influencers that can add up. But, but you sometimes do need a bit of scale. So how can you use the technology.

[Mike Shields]

That, that, that would be how you.

[Paul Wilmington]

Can actually automate a. Then the activation of it while still allowing that authenticity of the voice.

[Mike Shields]

That would be a killer business if someone can figure that out.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah.

[Mike Shields]

I want to ask you, you're not, you, you're not part of the big holding companies. You know that world, they're all going through changes. They're all talking about using AI in various shapes and forms. It seems a little scary for like the media agency world right now or could be, could be viewed as existential that you know, you're not going to need these people anymore. This means way smaller. Where do you come out on that? Are you. I'm sure you're using this stuff, but are you. Is it a moment where everyone is questioning whether we're going to need all these bodies and smarts and people?

[Paul Wilmington]

I think it's fantastic. I love chaos. I set up naked during chaos. I set up Media Kitchen during chaos. It's utter chaos. The holding companies are changing the it literally. Again, an apocryphal quote. We've all used it changing the engines while the airplane's in flight. The most difficult thing, almost impossible to do. So I don't compare canvas in any way, shape or form to the holding companies. We have one P and L. We've got the best culture, We've got nearly 600 people. We all. There's no turf, ego, greed here. There's no corridor integration, there's no legacy issues. I mean I could even argue that Axiom is a legacy now for ipg, you know, as in, in an AI world, you know, I can pivot around, I can use the latest techniques, I can use partnerships.

[Mike Shields]

That's interesting.

[Paul Wilmington]

Where I'm going with it is that what we've seen is the decrease in the market share that holding companies had. They no longer have clout. Obviously. Martin Sowell was the first mover to aggregate his quote unquote largest. You know, this is 20 plus years ago. But you know, everyone's acknowledging and so everyone's trying to pivot into being a technology business. They're not, they're service businesses, they're not technology businesses, they're not Microsoft, they're not Apple, they're not Google. They are utilizing technology. Yes. But again, I feel like a lot of the press releases, and I'm not being unkind, but a lot of the press releases seem to be self serving rather than what's the Benefit to the client. Everything I look at is what's the benefit to my culture and through my culture and through the people that I'm working with, how can I liberate them to do better, faster, greater things, whether it's audience, whether it's insights, whether it's hygiene, whether it's actually doubling down on eradicating rote work and upskilling it. But I think they have a dilemma because I think over the years, oversimplification, they gave away the intellectual capital in order to manufacture, but the manufacturer's under threat now. So I don't think it's, it's not even, you know, whether or not we can automate media planning. It's like the whole creative industry is.

[Mike Shields]

Going to go the way you are at the end of the day.

[Paul Wilmington]

What does it mean to be a planner today in an ad agency? And it makes the difference. And of course in media, so what we've been doing is really focusing, of course, what we understand is, and I'm using this very generally, we need those co pilots, we need in an agentic world, we have a construct hero hub and hygiene. So we obviously, the hubs are obviously our fundamental platforms that obviously are enterprise across. You know, how does it create a more harmonistic, more integrated, more intuitive. But also those hubs can be obviously big partnerships, they can be big data lakes that we obviously have to use in a first party world, a fusion of first and, you know, and third. And then there's the hygiene, which I would call, let's look at all of the areas of our industry which to be honest, we can make more efficient. There's definitely an efficiency play there. And then there's the hero. It's creating these unbelievable algorithms that are going to transform the way that we actually do business. And we've got many examples. So I like a kind of simple construct that my mum would understand because we have to move 600 people, let.

[Mike Shields]

Alone in the same direction.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah, that's 1,000 people.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Paul Wilmington]

Literally the muscle memory that exists within these holding companies and the different disciplines. No wonder they have to, quote, unquote, spend 400 million on AI off that. 400 million will be just trying to figure out how we actually move in one direction. For a client with, you know, 30 different disciplines.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. Talk about distraction and uncertainty and new techniques.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah, yeah, 50 new techniques. I'm, I was a senior fellow at Cumber University and I had a lot of fun with it, but I have these story worlds, so I have this periodic table of storytelling and it's all the. And it's got so complicated and now I'm adding to it. So it's a little hobby of mine. But it's. You know, in the old days we had X number of channels, Y number of techniques. This has exploded every way and. And again back to the measurement. We've now got 100. Well we've got multiple, multiple multiple measures. So this is a fascinating time to be in our industry. And AI is a part of the answer. It's not the answer. You know how many thousands of companies even Change their domain to.comai Right.

[Mike Shields]

Right.

[Paul Wilmington]

CEOs immediately felt like they had to say something about AI. And I think it's the same with the holding companies. And yet I would beg the question, are they still in a pitch serving up FTEs in the same way they did?

[Mike Shields]

I think, yeah. Behind closed doors. I think you're right. It's a lot of the same playbook.

[Paul Wilmington]

No, but my impression is there's a lot of talk at the front end but a lot of the. You know, but boy, we got to protect that goddamn revenue.

[Mike Shields]

This is what we know how to do and we're going to do it. Yeah.

[Paul Wilmington]

And of course, you know it used to be quite an interesting area to invest in. I've certainly been fortunate to be either an investor or get stock in the holding companies when poor performance was that you did 10% organic growth. Poor performance, 2% organic growth.

[Mike Shields]

And you know, it's good right now.

[Paul Wilmington]

And the best performer publicist is single digit.

[Mike Shields]

Right, right.

[Paul Wilmington]

About.

[Mike Shields]

Think about how that's changed.

[Paul Wilmington]

No and I'm not saying that you know and listen, there are some wonderful friends. I've got such admiration for them. But where it benefits Canvas I think is we are getting so much more deal flow. We are the scaled alternate. Yeah. The holding companies, we can do everything. But I have one pnl, right. It's power of having six officers. So six officers mean that I understand America. I can use every audience platform but I can still understand what it means to live in Arkansas because I've got people who live quite close by to me.

[Mike Shields]

Right. Right.

[Paul Wilmington]

I need to activate at a local level. I can understand that geography in a way that a 25 year old planner in New York City could never understand it working in whatever database they've got. Plus I've got. So I'm doubling down on the idea of we get America, we understand America. Because it's not just got. We've got amazing, we've got Linus, we've got an audience platform that I think compete with any of the hold gos with incredible data partners. But it's managed by people who I call it the Lewis Hamilton. So you need quite a few Lewis Hamiltons that aid a storyteller who can drive those machines. Also, you know the, a rare combination. So I hope I don't sound like I'm overly passionate about it, but I think, and I'm not saying we have all the answers, but I do believe that we're building a mousetrap where culture is number one in a world where I, you know, honestly I don't even know what the culture in, you know, when suddenly group M doesn't become group M anymore. I'm not sure. I mean they're going to have to rebuild a car.

[Mike Shields]

That's going to take a little time to figure out.

[Paul Wilmington]

And that's still such a critical part of the human condition is that you want to work at a place that you believe in that actually has a mission base.

[Mike Shields]

You got to get up and go there every day.

[Paul Wilmington]

And you can't be naive. We have to have the co pilot of technology, AI, data, data literacy. It's not just AI, it's who's going to be the data storyteller. And that's another superpower. How do you activate sport? Another superpower. I think there's, you know, the old school of sponsorship sport and there's going to be the new era of fandoms. And what are those? How does sport influence culture? I the last thing I'll say on that topic is I'm pivoting a little bit is when we publish the most up to date sports report. I'm going to send it to you. But the opener is a musing on sport as the new religion. And of course there's been a reference but this is how profound sport is today, that it really does connect everybody in a community. You can be cheek by jowl with someone who you might not cross the street to meet in a political sense or in an economic sense, but somehow you share something that transcends, you know, and, and religion and the, the whole ritual and legends and shrine a lot of suffering. So vivid. You know, if you grew up in New York and you come back and maybe go to the Knicks game, it'd be like doing a pilgrimage. Yeah, and I'm not trying to be blasphemous. I'm really using it as an analogy to this kind of transcendent thing that really unites people in such profound ways. And then you can dig down into the psychology of sport, the psychology of fandoms, all of that is utterly fascinating versus, well, how much am I going to pay for that sponsorship? Which is very important. That's a really important. But it's like, okay, well, how do you actually tap into all of that? So, again, I couldn't be more excited for the future. Yes. The naysayers are going to say, well, the agency business is stressed. Well, I think within every time of chaos, there will be new models will.

[Mike Shields]

Emerge, new opportunities emerge.

[Paul Wilmington]

Right. It's Darwin, isn't it? So if we can evolve quicker than the other guys, and I think we can because we don't have, you know, we're not dinosaur, like.

[Mike Shields]

Right, right. Yeah. And yeah, but the agencies have been declared dead for a long time. It's just a new evolution. Here, here, Paul, awesome stuff. Great conversation. Thanks so much for your time. And let's chat again here.

[Paul Wilmington]

Yeah. You're the best. Thank you, Mike. I love what you do, by the way. Thank you. You've.

[Mike Shields]

Thank you very much.

[Paul Wilmington]

One of the mentors in the business.

[Mike Shields]

Cheers.

[Paul Wilmington]

Thank you.

[Mike Shields]

Thanks again. And my guest this week, canvases, Paul Wilmington and my partners at Rembrandt. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more what's next in media. Thanks for listening.