Some AI Real Talk with Jellyfish

Summary

Next in Media - Episode Summary: "Some AI Real Talk with Jellyfish"

Release Date: February 27, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Next in Media, host Mike Shields engages in a profound discussion with Jeff Mansoft, a partner at Jellyfish, a prominent global digital marketing agency under the BrandTech Group umbrella. The conversation delves into the transformative impact of Artificial Intelligence (AI) on the media, marketing, and advertising industries. Jeff shares insights on balancing performance-driven advertising with brand building, the resurgence of Marketing Mix Modeling (MMM), and the evolving landscape of media consumption, particularly the shift from linear TV to Connected TV (CTV).

---

About Jellyfish and Jeff Mansoft

Jeff Mansoft introduces himself and provides an overview of Jellyfish's role in the digital marketing ecosystem. He emphasizes Jellyfish's global presence, spanning 50 countries with a workforce of 1,800 professionals. Jeff highlights Jellyfish's unique capability to address substantial marketing challenges by offering bespoke solutions tailored to diverse client needs without the constraints typical of holding companies.

Notable Quote:

"Our superpower at Jellyfish is that we are big enough to take on meaty challenges and small enough to be nimble, tailoring the right offering for the right client in any country." (01:36)

---

The Shift from Performance-Driven to Balanced Advertising

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the industry's historical oscillation between brand-focused and performance-driven advertising. Jeff posits that while data and the rise of retail media have propelled a heavy emphasis on performance metrics, there's a discernible swing back towards valuing brand building more holistically.

Key Points:

• Historical Context: The pendulum between brand and demand strategies has been swinging for over a century, intensified by digital advancements.
• Data Transparency: Enhanced transparency in data capabilities has redefined what is achievable in deterministic versus probabilistic data modeling.
• Retail Media Influence: Giants like Amazon, Google, and Meta have integrated brand and performance metrics, recognizing their pivotal role in capturing consumer attention and driving sales.

Notable Quote:

"We see every RFP we've received for media and creative over the last year centers on how to handle brand to demand, reintegrating it, and proving its value to numbers-focused CMOs." (07:20)

---

Resurgence of Marketing Mix Modeling (MMM)

Jeff discusses the renewed interest in MMM, attributing its renaissance to advancements in AI that have addressed previous limitations such as slow processing times and lack of granularity. Jellyfish's proprietary technology, "Now Next Soon," integrates traditional MMM principles with AI to deliver faster, more detailed insights.

Key Points:

• AI Integration: AI enhances MMM by enabling real-time data processing and finer granularity in analyzing marketing channels.
• Competitive Edge: Jellyfish combines existing third-party models like Google Meridian with their unique analytical frameworks to offer a comprehensive solution.
• Balancing Act: The challenge lies in allocating marketing dollars effectively across platforms while leveraging AI-driven optimizations within each platform.

Notable Quote:

"With AI, everything can be so much smarter and faster, allowing us to handle channels and campaigns with a level of detail that wasn't possible before." (08:44)

---

AI-Driven Ad Models and Tools

A focal point of the conversation is Jellyfish's approach to AI-driven advertising tools. Jeff elaborates on their acquisition of Pencil, an AI-based platform designed for ad format creation and performance forecasting. This tool enables marketers to generate and test ad variations efficiently, significantly reducing development time and costs while improving performance metrics.

Key Points:

• Pencil's Capabilities: Integrates with major Large Language Models (LLMs) and directly links to marketers' ad accounts for predictive performance analysis.
• Efficiency Gains: Users can develop ads 66% faster, at 53% lower costs, and achieve nearly 44% better performance metrics.
• Future Expansion: Plans to incorporate video content creation, expanding beyond display and static images.

Notable Quote:

"With Pencil, ads are being developed 66% faster, 53% cheaper, and nearly 44% better in performance metrics across 235,000 ads we've run." (15:42)

---

Balancing Platform Optimization with MMM

The interplay between platform-driven AI tools like Google's Performance Max (PMax) and MMM is examined. Jeff argues that while platform tools offer significant optimization capabilities, they should complement rather than replace MMM, ensuring a balanced approach that leverages both granular platform data and overarching marketing strategies.

Key Points:

• Continuous Improvement: Platform tools are evolving rapidly, necessitating ongoing evaluation and adaptation by marketers.
• Human Oversight: Despite AI advancements, maintaining human oversight is crucial for understanding and interpreting AI-driven decisions.
• Integrated Strategy: Combining MMM with platform-specific optimizations ensures comprehensive marketing effectiveness.

Notable Quote:

"Maintaining the human in the tech loop is essential to understand and explain AI-driven outcomes to clients and stakeholders." (11:36)

---

Automation and Scaling with AI

Jeff emphasizes the role of AI in automating monotonous tasks, enabling marketers to manage a larger number of accounts without a proportional increase in manpower. This shift not only enhances efficiency but also allows marketing professionals to focus on strategic initiatives rather than routine operations.

Key Points:

• Workflow Optimization: AI automates repetitive tasks, reducing errors and accelerating campaign launch times.
• Scalability: Marketers can scale their operations, handling more accounts with the same workforce by leveraging AI-driven tools.
• Adaptability: Agencies must evaluate internal processes to identify areas where AI can offer the most significant impact.

Notable Quote:

"Instead of a media mid-level person working on two accounts, they can work on 15 accounts because the monotonous parts of their job are AI-fied." (19:29)

---

Brand Safety in the Modern Era

Despite ongoing political and social shifts, brand safety remains a paramount concern for marketers. Jeff asserts that brand safety is highly individualized and continues to hold significant importance, ensuring that a brand's reputation is meticulously managed across all platforms.

Key Points:

• Personalized Approach: Brand safety strategies are tailored to each brand's unique risk assessments and comfort levels.
• Continuous Vigilance: Regular audits and assessments help maintain alignment with brand values and prevent reputational risks.
• Client Prioritization: While some clients may prioritize cost over brand safety, the majority maintain rigorous standards to protect their brand integrity.

Notable Quote:

"Brand safety is hyper-personalized and customized to every brand, ensuring that where a brand presents itself is of prime value." (23:04)

---

Emerging Trends and Future Outlook

In closing, Jeff highlights two significant trends shaping the future of media and advertising:

1. Connected TV (CTV) Supplanting Linear TV:

   • Market Adoption: CTV is increasingly replacing traditional linear TV, especially for live events like sports and award shows.
   • Client Acceptance: Jellyfish has successfully pitched CTV-based solutions to clients, evidencing a shift in marketer confidence and adoption.

2. AI's Expanding Role in Management:

   • Automation of High-Stakes Management: AI is poised to revolutionize the management of vast advertising budgets, enhancing trust and transparency.
   • Strategic Focus: AI-driven efficiencies will allow marketers to allocate more time and resources to brand storytelling and strategic planning.

Notable Quote:

"The real opportunity is that CTV is going to decimate linear for real this time, and AI is going to speed up and make managing billions easier." (24:24)

Conclusion

The episode concludes with an optimistic outlook on the integration of AI in media and advertising. Jeff Mansoft underscores the importance of embracing technological advancements to enhance efficiency, maintain brand integrity, and navigate the ever-evolving media landscape. As AI continues to reshape the industry, firms like Jellyfish are at the forefront, pioneering innovative solutions that balance performance metrics with enduring brand value.

Final Quote:

"The more that we can trust performance to do its thing and spend time to make brand work, the more exciting the future becomes." (26:13)

---

Key Takeaways

• AI as a Catalyst: AI is transforming media advertising by enabling faster, more efficient campaign management and execution.
• Balancing Act: Successful marketing strategies will harmonize performance-driven tactics with robust brand-building efforts.
• Evolving Media Consumption: The shift from linear TV to CTV represents a significant change in how brands reach and engage audiences.
• Human Oversight Remains Crucial: Despite AI's capabilities, human expertise is essential for strategic decision-making and maintaining brand integrity.
• Future-Proofing: Staying abreast of technological advancements and integrating them thoughtfully will be key for agencies aiming to stay competitive.

---

For more insights into the rapidly changing media landscape, subscribe to the Next in Media podcast and stay updated with industry-leading discussions.

Transcript

[A]

Freemantle, one of the world's most prolific creators and distributors of premium content such as America's Got Talent, the Price Is Right and Family feud, reaching over 100 million US households, leverages Elemental TV's AI powered one audience platform to offer advertisers a zero hop access to its extensive library of iconic titles with enhanced transparency and precision targeting via curated audiences. Discover [e-mail] One audience that's E L E M E n T a l t v.com o n e A u D I E N C e this week on Nexting Media I spoke with Jeff Manisoft. He's a partner at Jellyfish, which is part of Davy Jones led Brandtech Group. Jeff and I talked about whether the ad market's obsession with performance is due for a pendulum swing, whether the rise in AI driven ad models makes that harder or easier. Jeff and I also talked about how some marketers are finally ready to walk away from linear TV, yet at the same time how MMMs are suddenly retro cool again. Let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to NEXT to Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Jeff Mansoft. He's a partner at Jellyfish. Hey Jeff, thanks for being here.

[B]

Thanks so much. This is great. Thank you.

[A]

Excited to talk to you because I you know, Jellyfish is one of those companies I know folks know a little bit about. They might know you're part of the brand tech media world but maybe not fully understand what the different how you're different than other companies out there. So give us a little bit about who you are, your role and what Jellyfish is all about.

[B]

Great, thanks so much. So I'm Jeff Mattisoff, a partner, one of the partners leading Jellyfish and Jellyfish is a global digital marketing agency with services from media to creative to SE analytics. Our AI proprietary technology run the gamut from any digital marketing needs that marketers have. Jellyfish is a great spot for us. We're global, we're in 50 countries, we have 1800 people. And what is the superpower of Jellyfish is that we are big enough to be able to take on meaty challenges and put these services together in ways that are bespoke for brands or small enough that we can be nimble, that we can again put the right offering for the right client in whatever country we want. We don't have different P and L or structure issues that we have holding company.

[A]

You don't have all this layers and levels and things like that.

[B]

Exactly. And we but if we have a client in the US who wants to expand to Germany or Australia, we can do that. Or if we have a client who's a media Forward client, but we see value of adding some new creative in whether done by AI or our creative team, we can do that more easily. And as part of the BrandTech group, as you mentioned, you know I came in through that acquisition of Jellyfish. We were part of David's BrandTech group before the acquisition of Jellyfish.

[A]

They were invested in you guys and then they got married. You got.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So we had been as part of brand tech, we were looking at what were a major acquisition we could make to forward the group. And we looked at 120 companies in a year and a half and really that was. We looked at jellyfish and then 100 plus other companies to make sure it was Jellyfish. And it always was. Their ability, our ability to work together, to move fast together, to put technology and data first, to find like a third way that isn't Holdco or isn't stringing mom and pop shops around the world together has just been awesome. It's been a great two and a half years.

[A]

And how did you, how did you come up through the business? Were you a media person, brand guy, middle everything?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So started in an integrated small marketing agency in New York, then more focused in media at Publicis and moxie on us clients like yeah, wow, I heard.

[A]

That one in a while that exactly.

[B]

2000 what seven one. You know, right when Zenith had acquired Moxie. I was one of the post acquisition or whatever hires to try to integrate offline and online because I spoke both languages and helped that integration with clients like Purina and Nestle then had been both run integrated shops and just media shops. So my day job is more media and analytics, but my night job of looking after any of our big clients, regardless of media creative or how we push those things back together to just solve client problems is kind of what I do.

[A]

Okay, so let's take a like macro view of what's going on in the industry and what you're seeing. There's a lot of big trends but there, you know, there's been this, it's not new that the business, the industry is caring more about outcomes I suppose, but it's really there's been this huge push towards like everything is going performance and it's some of it's being driven by more data and some of it's been driven by just like the growth of the retail media guys and the ability to prove transactions from ads Right away. But maybe you're seeing a little swing back where you see like the Amazons of the world talking full funnel more than they used to do. You see that and then why is that happening?

[B]

So yes, I think there's two or three things in there. One is from an balance of brand and demand. I mean this has been going back and forth for probably 100 years, but definitely ever since we let people click on the gol darn banner. We should never have let people click and it all would have been fine. But I think, but you know that's, that's cyclical and you're certainly right that we saw a huge swing because we could count stuff and the excess of data and a belief, good or bad in third party cookies and audience and targeting and that's now been more transparent about what is really doable and the value of when you know what you know deterministic data is versus probabilistic. But then with the Amazons coming as.

[A]

Part two or three, my four part question.

[B]

Four. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for asking a 17 part question. No, but I mean, but it's really true. And I think the key is that Amazon has realized that they have consumer attention as has Google, as has Meta. And so yeah, there's stuff to count and they are closest to sales. The retail media team's exactly the same, but they also have incredible eyes as people are discovering and searching and figuring out what they need. I mean Instagram basically broke the customer journey when you had a single impression that was this close to your space. There was the whole screen where you could like you didn't even know you had this problem or that you were lacking this type of a sweater. But suddenly I need one and you can buy it all in that same impression. Amazon is now the same. The retail platforms are the same. Out of home is almost the same with what you can do.

[A]

Yeah, it's wild how digital that is becoming and more idea driven.

[B]

I think it's a reflection of consumer time and where they're spending things. But also understand that behavior is different digitally and that's okay. But we do see every RFP we get now for media and even creative and every client that we've won at Jellyfish over the last year. That has been the core question. How are you handling brand to demand? How are you reintegrating it? Tell me how you are weighing the contribution and value of brand. We know it's working, but how can you help me prove to my CMO who's a numbers person that we should be Putting more there. That is every RFP that's been out in the marketplace for the last year.

[A]

Plus interesting. I mean that sounds like it is. It's never been easy, but it's great. I would, I would assume it's great if, if an Amazon that can tell you about this customer journey and on all their properties and connect branded demand but you don't want to just buy in Amazon or just buy Google. How hard is it to do that? To connect those two things when you're in this walled garden world?

[B]

Yep. You know, it's really not that hard. It's a bit of both. And, and what we've built at Jellyfish is a tech called Now Next soon that's built on age old mmm principles. MMM is sexy again. Right. Because it gets out of that stuff. It gets out of that tribution and View Windows and click it says, I had this pie chart of dollars in market with this other pie chart of impressions and I got these results back and over the last year, of course that is dynamic because the platforms change and campaigns change. So you actually like naturally get good individualized scenarios of what was in market and with some easy regression you can actually figure out that roas in a way that's really valuable. The problem with age old MMM was that it took forever. Right. You'd spend six months.

[A]

I was going to ask you why are they back and what's better? Because it used to be they were slow and they were maybe biased towards TV or something like what's, what's changed?

[B]

I mean, I think it's been 11 minutes and we haven't even said AI yet.

[A]

It's coming, it's coming.

[B]

That's the answer, right? Everything can be so much smarter and faster and crunchable with AI that we can then say, okay, cool, we've got all of these channels, all of these impressions, all of these campaigns to granularity that we couldn't do. Which is why TV was always preferred by a lot of mostly which is like taxonomy would end with TV buy. Whereas digital was so extra structured. But now we can get down to audience or format or campaign promotion or you know, coupon level to be able to see the nuance there. Plus a lot of the platforms have built like Google's Meridian opportunities to fold in models that are more digital centric and have that as a counterpoint to something traditional. So the speed of it, the granularity and then the both and point is that then you need to rely on what the platform is saying once you've figured out we priority, rank order or getting large buckets of dollars, platform times, format times, even tactic or PMAX versus YouTube, what. However granular you want to go, then you need to start relying on the platform's way of what's best inside that. And how do we optimize the buys? So we look at it as, again, both and like, how do we, from a high level, perspect perspective, allocate the dollars on a contribution, what's happening across everything, and then once it's in a platform, get as much juice out of that stone as possible.

[A]

Right. All right, you led me to the next question because you dropped the PMAX mention. It's an interesting moment. You're talking about this renaissance for MMMs, right? Nai is part of it. But then you've got these platform driven AI, call them media buying optimization tools like Performance Max and Advantage plus and Amazon and Pinterest. They're all doing. They're all, they seem to be great, but maybe it gives you less control, less transparency. Is it in conflict with what you're trying to do with MMMs? How do you think about that?

[B]

Starting with the first? So they've come a long way, let's also realize that. And they're getting better. Every month, every quarter, every release of pmax and A plus, the platforms are listening to what we have to offer, what clients are saying when we're taking dollars out. They're asking why and what they can do better and differently. And they're making great changes. So the tools are getting better. Even if it didn't work for Marketer or even for some of our teams a year ago, we're continually saying check again, because they are. It's really getting better. So especially with, in terms of a lack of control, I don't know. I mean, in some ways you're talking about a control we never understood or maybe didn't really have in the first place. But what brands need to understand and what we tell our teams is to understand what that outcome is worth to you.

[A]

It used to be I don't know what's working. I don't know. I can't prove it. Now you're like complaining about something working if you don't totally understand it, it's kind of contradictory.

[B]

Exactly. And that's what we talk about, the human in the tech loop. We still want a human in the loop, even if we're working alongside pmax and A plus to at least be monitoring. Like, what is it actually doing? Why did it happen last week that something went crazy up or down. Can you understand it? You can't understand it. Slow it down. If it's like actually I do, I can feasibly understand that we added new assets or we increased some of the pricing parameters or all of the stuff was happening outside of the platform that made it easier. Cool, let's run with that. But the whole where we are in AI right now is keeping the human and the tech aligned so that you can answer questions. Because whether it's us to our clients or our clients to their bosses, somebody's going to ask why did they things go so well, slash badly and you don't want to just answer, oh yeah, good timing.

[A]

I know. I want to ask you about what the product you mentioned that you guys have built, but on that subject, my perception, and maybe it's wrong, is that those performance max tools, it's in the name, are going to be all about performance roi. Like can you do branding with those AI tools? Can you optimize both things? Are they really just for one, are they hammers for nails?

[B]

Like yeah, right now there are hammers for nails. But again I would put that as a right now also there are other AI tools that Google and Amazon and Meta are releasing to think about things that are not just heavy bottom funnel like demand gen for Google which is YouTube and Shorts and stuff. So I think that they're experimenting with other ways. But branding means different things to every brand and KPIs are different. And so it's a broader struggle I would imagine as much as PMAX with search and now with display and now with video, but focused on a KPI that ads understands in a different way is my is my guess. But I would bet that in six months, nine months, definitely a year, we'll be using branding tools with the platforms in the same way that we use demand gen.

[A]

Okay, you mentioned the product that you have built. Tell us about that and why do that versus using what's out there. And I imagine that's got to be very competitive to build these tools that work.

[B]

Our perspective on building versus borrowing is exactly that. Like if there's something that is available in the marketplace that we can partner with and that we feel great about, then we're going to do that all day long. Our MMM solution is a mix of different components. We're using Google Meridian and other third party models underneath. But we've crafted our own perspective on how brands should integrate with it, how our teams should learn from it and the insights that it provides. And nothing like that existed. So our analytics team and our data science teams built it and it's just how we do planning in a data driven non panel based. Not this is what 3000 consumers said but like this is what your last two years of data suggests you should do to optimize and analyze your media component. Which is different than our approach to Jet AI. We bought a company called Pencil.

[A]

There's AI and there's AI. Okay. These are very different things we're talking about here.

[B]

Exactly. So, so for mmm it was easier for us to kind of do a bit of building and borrowing to put this solution together.

[A]

Right. For Gen AI, you bought a company why that, why that move?

[B]

So Pencil is phenomenal and if. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Pencil offering that we bought.

[A]

I know, I know like a little bit.

[B]

So it's really an exciting, exciting piece of kit and it is Genai for ad format creation links to the major LLMs. But most importantly it links directly to a marketer's ad accounts so that it can forecast performance. It can say okay, here are 10 things that the marketer and the AI together created and based on what you've run and also some of our benchmark norms for so you don't have to.

[A]

Actually spend media and try it. It's like you can figure out the testing ahead of time.

[B]

It's pre forecasting to say these are sure bets they're really going to work. This one's different than anything you ever worked but than you've ever run. But we think it's really valuable. These two are just like what you're going to do. We think it's going to be fine. And then here are the numbers backing it. And when we launch then the ads we're seeing ads get developed 66% faster, 53% cheaper and nearly 44% performing better on brand or performance metrics. That's across 235,000 ads that we've run in the last.

[A]

Are you talking mostly display social at this point? Not television I'm guessing or correct.

[B]

Not television though. Videos coming soon. Display static images, social programmatic banners, video coming very soon.

[A]

Okay, given what you're seeing in the market and what your your experience different do you think are all the big agencies, whether they're media shops, integrated marketing, whatever, is everybody going to have to build their own AI tools, buy something? You know you don't think of agencies as being able to do like but they're not going to build their own LLMs. They're not a thousand engineers. But like what's that going to look like?

[B]

It's such a great topic. And this is what I'm really passionate about right now, is we are figuring out our own way in this. We are. Again, we're 1800 people and we're not going to build an LLM to beat Gemini. Like, that's not going to happen. I don't think Omnicom is going to build one. And is this going to be the same way with Programmatic? Right. Like, everyone tried to have their DSP in their bidding solution. Three or four have won. Cool. Guess what? It's going to be the same way.

[A]

Let's be realistic about technology.

[B]

Yeah, but what's cool about Pencil and like, what I remember all the time is why the founders named it Pencil is because they wanted it to be a tool that creatives used to develop ads, not something that was replacing a creative. So when I think about media and what our teams do to get the jobs done, to steward client investment, to steward brand performance or brand outcomes, to get the taxonomy right, all of these things, what tool would they want from an AI perspective to do that faster, to do it with less errors, to get launch times from two weeks to two hours, like that kind of stuff. And that's what we're playing with. That's where we think agents and even workflow automation can have a huge, huge impact. Because AI is a thing now that it wasn't two years ago. You know, it's always been a dream, but now we can really do it. And so I think that's what agencies will start to do, is to look at their own process and workflow, to say, how can AI help in the things that we're doing? Take cost or time out of our equations. Not something that's going to beat OpenAI or beat Claude.

[A]

You know, what have you found in your. Your organization may be different than a traditional holding company, but I've, I've had my own, like, mini journey of, I don't want to use any of this stuff. No, I don't want this. Leave me alone to. Okay, fine. And now it's actually helping me work better. Are your staffers resistant? Are they getting trained? Are they. Is everybody in different place? Like, what's that look like?

[B]

Yep. So I would say we have always been a very tech forward, very. Don't throw bodies at this problem to make it go away. We're not a holding company where we charge by bodies or have thousands and thousands of junior assistants who we have to worry about. So it's always been how Can I use tech to solve this problem? So we don't have much laggards or fear about it. If anything, a lot of our client contracts keep us from using some easy systems like note takers and things Interesting. And people are begging for it. So all the more reason why our focus is on what is our work, what is the jobs that people are doing. How do we make this so that instead of a media mid level person working on two accounts, they can work on 15 accounts because the monotonous parts of their job are AI FIED.

[A]

So the clients and the lawyers have to catch up a little bit to where the. Where you guys are legal.

[B]

Just generally whether ours or clients or anyone's has to catch up for sure. But I would say that, you know, last year was such a wow year of AI. At the beginning of last year there was certainly hesitation. Your personal journey is exactly right over last year was mine too of like, oh, I don't know about this. Is this the fad? Is this the metaverse?

[A]

I had to write an email. Leave me alone. Yeah, exactly. I get.

[B]

So memorize the email by myself. I'm good. But now it's finding ways to be super valuable. And our teams are seeing that, our clients are seeing that. A lot of our clients are tech partners or fashion or entertainment or travel that are going through the same AI evolution in their own company. So it's not just like, oh, marketing's doing this weird thing. They're seeing it in finance, they're seeing it in HR. So they're being pushed as well. And I think that's 25 versus 24, you know.

[A]

Sure, sure. I'm thinking about all the, all the stuff we're talking about, about being more analytic and data driven, trying them out using these AI models. How does that fit in with. Every brand is trying to figure out where the creators fit in their media diet more. It seems very not like this. Or it's, you know, it seems like it's very much driven about. Much more about brand and association and old school marketing to a degree. How does that plug into your organization? If it does. Or is it a totally different discipline?

[B]

Yeah, no, not, not at all. It's. It's. Again, it's a. Probably the second most prolific question we get in RFPS is how are you organizing creators and organic content into paid or amplify consumers don't notice our organization as a marketer. Our clients are siloed. How can you help us bring it back together? And so whether that's creator and influencer Programs that we do as Jellyfish or with our sister agency in the collectively. Sure.

[A]

It's a another collective folks.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean they're amazing at it and it's a real center of gravity and it isn't one or the other. We understand what creators contribute, the audiences they bring, the content they bring, the perspective they bring, and yet can also have both. And again of the smarts around, how much to put behind it, how much to value, what their contribution to the overall plan is. We're able to run pretty small, not micro but like mid sized creator efforts through our now, next, soon. Mmm. And I was wondering that feels like.

[A]

The kind of thing that wouldn't fit in a model but you're figuring out a way to do it.

[B]

Yeah, it does. Again, as long as the data is scalable. Again, if it's a micro or we spent a couple grand on a couple boosting posts, probably not. But if it's a consistent program that one of our clients is working with a couple of creators or vast number on, we can quantify that.

[A]

Interesting. Another thing I want to ask you about, not related at all, but I saw you've commented about this and written about it. Brand safety has been, you know, it's been a challenge up and down for the industry for a number of years. There's recent stuff bubbling up with scandalous things being found with analytics. But then there's also this like seeming shift in the tides lately of like, you know, we're in this Trump era. No one cares about this stuff anymore. No one cares about things that mattered in last year, which I hate to think that way. But I wonder, has, has that come down in terms of priority or interest among clients? Are you still very focused on it? What's going on there?

[B]

It's still so close to clients because they value their brand and that where their brand presents and is located is, is of prime value.

[A]

So they're not in this not, no apologies, masculine energy era.

[B]

Not, not on mass. But the important, important part there is that there shouldn't be an on mass response to brand safety. It is hyper personalized and individualized and customized to every brand. And there are marketers who are like, thank you for all this discussion. I know you're really smart but I want the cheapest impressions I can find to get the lowest cost leads in. Thank you. Others really care. And so we have an audit system as most places do, and an assessment of what's right for your brand. What is your risk assessment on what you are comfortable with for an Individual platform here's transparently all that you can or can't do inside of it. Are you okay with that? And in previous gigs we've left platforms because we weren't okay with it. Here we have this conversation, honestly ongoing. I don't see any difference on this one thing in the Trump era, but I think it's because most marketers have gotten into that rigor of knowing this is how we do it.

[A]

They're versed in.

[B]

I haven't seen anyone back away from DV or IIS or something, but it's still crucial to marketers.

[A]

Okay, I'll let you out of here on this one. This is a open ended question, but what are we not talking about enough? What are some trends you're seeing that are really interesting or some things come around the corner that we should be thinking about in the industry that are exciting to you or obstacles that we're not talking? What's kind of on your radar?

[B]

Yeah, two or three things popping. The first thing is the real, real opportunity that CTV is going to decimate linear for real this time. We've been saying that since, I don't know, since someone plugged in their laptop to their TV screen. But now it's really the case of sports, live news, the Beyonce bowl and the Oscars, all of this being streaming. The real revolution in Linear is coming in. Our clients see it. We have several RFPs that we've entered and said we don't have traditional TV buying but let us prove to you that CTV can do it. And we've won those discussions. Marketers are starting to hear it this time. So that I think is really, really exciting because it's, because again, it's real. Second thing we did talk about AI and where AI is really going to impact, speed up, make easier the management of billions and billions of dollars. Like the, the idea that we have some laxity around how agencies manage this massive, massive amount of money. Whether you're.

[A]

The stakes are high. Like it's a big deal.

[B]

Huge. And, and we have almost no automation to help with that. But now we're going to. And that's going to be so wonderful for trust, for transparency, for taking bodies that clients were like, well, I know I need 20 search kids to run this campaign, but I really wish I could afford three more strategies. Like, well now you can have both. So those two things are interesting, are what I'm most excited about. And then, you know, back to the brand or demand. I'm a performance nerd who believes in the power of brand. And that's you fall in love with brands. You fall in love with brand stories, with people and how they attach themselves to brands. You don't fall in love with promotion or an act now. So the more that we can trust performance to do its thing and spend time to make brand work is what's also get really, really exciting for me next.

[A]

That's a refreshing perspective. Jeff, awesome conversation. Thanks so much for your time and let's do this again sometimes.

[B]

Thanks, Mike. Really great to talk to you.

[A]

Thanks again to my guest this week, Jellyfish's Jeff Matisoff, and my partners at Elemental tv. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more what's next in media. Thanks for listening.