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What Happens When You Build a Media Company on TikTok, and it Goes Away?
00:24:35
Next in Creator Media spoke with Sol Betesh Co-Founder & CEO at Fallen Media, the company behind viral hits like Street Hearts and What's Popping, on why he's bullish on predictable, original series on short form platforms. Betesh also talked about why brands are still asking lots of elementary questions when working with creators, and how he's planning to deal with a potential TikTok ban.
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- [00:00]
Mike Shields
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- [01:27]
Saul Batesh
Hey Mike, thanks for having me.
- [01:28]
Mike Shields
Excited to talk to you. It's well timed our conversation. I have lots of stuff I want to ask you about, but it's probably good to just give folks a little bit about who you are. What's Fallen Media, how you got into this industry, what's your story?
- [01:39]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, I'll give you the the high level on us. You know, we're probably the largest short form studio out there. We we create really popular original series for all the short form swipable platforms. TikTok Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts. Our content does close to a billion views a year and we're probably most well known for our really popular New York City content. Whether that's our man on the street content, some of our dating and relationships content mainly focused around Gen Z. We've been doing this probably four and a half, five years now. Started the company with a 15 year old kid who I met from a Taylor Lorenz article in the New York Times. He was very big in the meme business, but we've Been really early in this whole social media platforms being more media than social over the past couple of years and really focused on, you know, building. The Warner Brothers are the paramounts of. If you build that today on the platforms that people use. Starting with, with short form, I think that's, that's sort of, you know, our focus.
- [02:38]
Mike Shields
I want to ask you about some of those projects, but why short form, specific studio, theoretically a digital video studio or just a bigger studio could do this? It's probably not. But is it such a specialty that you need to focus this way?
- [02:52]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, great question. The short answer to that is yes. And I think you see that with, you know, a lot of the traditional media companies putting some of their content on, on short form, a lot of brands that we speak to. I still haven't cracked short form. I think the same way you tell a specific story on TV and that story is structured in the 30 minutes to an hour and told a certain way. Even YouTube content. Right, that's told in a certain way and set up some conventions that have emerged. Right, that hits, right, that hits the algorithm, you know, making a successful 92nd, 60 to 92nd episode that lives on a platform like TikTok. And the story told in a way that captures your attention, that wants, that gets you to watch throughout, that gets you to follow and like and comment and sort of get involved. You know, a way to tell that story is something that we labor over.
- [03:41]
Mike Shields
That is not a recut kind of thing.
- [03:43]
Saul Batesh
No, no, we, we were one of the first to be like, we're going to make content for these platforms first. It's not cut from an hour episode. It's literally beginning, middle, end in 90 seconds.
- [03:54]
Mike Shields
Okay, so you talked about being around for four or five years. You hinted at some of the dating projects in your city stuff. Take us through your hits and where they came from and like how, what you've learned.
- [04:03]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, so our, I think our, you know, our first original series hit is our show what's Poppin With Davis? Which I think was the really, the first very, very popular man on the street series for short form. I'm not going to say we invented man on the Street. Billy Eichner did it, Letterman did it back in the, in the 90s. But you know, we sort of said, okay, how do we bring this format to Gen Z on a platform like TikTok? How do we make a show for TikTok where we're going to put out new episodes on a day to day basis in a way that I think most creators you know, they were creating content on their phones, they were doing it on their own schedule. It's like how do we create this thing where it's sort of ongoing, always getting better with a team around it and an amazing host. And we found Davis Burleson who at the time had moved to New York to make it big. He was a small to mid sized creator, 200,000 followers on his personal TikTok. He was doing impressions day in the life content and we approached him and of course we didn't know we were doing at the time. It was our first show. We approached him and said hey, we have this great idea for this really young, vibrant man on the street show. We're going to call it what's Poppin. New York City is sort of slowly coming out of heavy Covid. People are moving out of the city but we're betting that New York City is going to be hotter than ever. And I think people want that, that, that microphone and that voice. And he was down and interested and he was moving back to Houston because wasn't checking off the, the box that he wanted to, he wanted to be Andy Cohen and Ryan Seacrest and which I asked him what he wanted to do.
- [05:28]
Mike Shields
He was on the verge of like I'm. This might not be working out.
- [05:30]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, he was done. He was moving back and we gave him, you know, we sort of worked on this opportunity together and he stayed in New York and we filmed and first couple of weeks, no views at all. And we kept adjusting and fixing and really doubling down on, on the content and finally we got our first viral video and the story goes the same way. All these creators sort of blow up as you have that first big hit and the rest is history. Now we can't walk down the street without people wanting to take pictures with them.
- [05:55]
Mike Shields
It's probably evolved over time. But what, what, what was the, was there a business model that you had figured out right away or. Not necessarily.
- [06:01]
Saul Batesh
The truth is we, we said no. I mean we, we thought maybe we get some brand opportunities here and there. We didn't understand the extent of what we were building and we thought, we thought we may make a couple of bucks here or there on it. We thought maybe we'd set up the Patreon and at the time that was the thing and get people to pay me.
- [06:18]
Mike Shields
If you're, if you're focused on TikTok, you don't have that like adsense money kicking in right off the bat.
- [06:23]
Saul Batesh
Correct, Correct, correct. And we did the show, I think two or three Months in, we got our first deal from, from G Fuel. They paid us 2500 bucks. Video, three videos. And we were like jumping for joy, like, wow, it's unbelievable.
- [06:35]
Mike Shields
The guy got to stay in New York, right?
- [06:37]
Saul Batesh
But that was the first sort of opening that was like, okay, brands are interested and they reached out to us. And then over the next six months it was like the doors flew open. Of course we were, we were riding it. It wasn't until later where we sort of got an understanding of the business model. But you know, brands like Adidas and Expedia and Shopify in our inbox dying to do videos on this show that we built from scratch. And I think what we realized and how we build our shows now and the whole really the business model that we're focused on in the moment is, you know, we really built this sort of, I would say different product for brands to advertise on social. So what I mean by that is most brands, the way they advertise on social. Right now if you want to advertise on TikTok or, or Instagram, you're working with maybe a large set of influencers who record a lot of content on their, on their phones or you're just.
- [07:27]
Mike Shields
Running a bunch of pre rolls and.
- [07:30]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, and we sort of, you know, carved out another area where we're saying, you know, you can really attach yourself as a brand to really up and coming strong IP produced really well. Where we think it's sort of a higher level end product because we produce this stuff all day. We can really push the envelope on the types of content that we make for.
- [07:48]
Mike Shields
As you control it.
- [07:49]
Saul Batesh
Exactly, exactly. For like, for example, just to give you a sense of like the level of brand partnerships that we do and how far we like to push on our dating show Street Arts where we took two people on a blind date in New York City on the sidewalk, we partnered with Westin who had released a new mattress. It was called their heavenly bed. And they wanted to do something really creative and they said to us, let's figure out something really big. And we basically built a king size bed and put it in Central Park. And the Western, Western corporate came of course to make the bed look.
- [08:21]
Mike Shields
Hopefully this is not like a daily today.
- [08:23]
Saul Batesh
Um, no. Well, it's actually, you know, it was, it was nice, it's very cold. It was actually nice out. It was during the summer. But we came, we built out this giant king sized bed and we did a couple of dates outside in Central park called the Sheathards and the content Just did a couple million views. Organic, which was.
- [08:40]
Mike Shields
And again, that's a. So there's, like you said, there's been dating shows for a long, long time, all kinds of formats, but you were. So in one way it's maybe a little retro, but then you're doing it in a 90 second style and it's aimed for this generation. What was like, how did you do that?
- [08:55]
Saul Batesh
Well, we start with the concept and the concept was, what if you put two people on a, on a blind date in New York City outdoors and see if you can get them to agree to go on a second date? That was, that was the concept. That's how we start with everything. That concept can be done a thousand different ways. And so we spend probably a month in development on a concept that we're really excited about, really testing different ways to tell that story. Is it 60 seconds? Is it 90 seconds? What does the intro look like? What does the outro look like? How do you keep their attention? Are we casting it? Are we finding really random people on the street? These are some of the things that we think about. So until we get something that we're really excited about and then we'll post it and even if that doesn't hit right off the bat, we're still sort of, you know, tightening the screws on the show for the next couple of weeks. And you'll. The best part about these platforms, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube shorts, specifically the short form platforms, is once you get something that works, you know, right away, the feedback is right there. You'll get the views, you'll get the comments, you'll get the engagement and then you ride that.
- [09:52]
Mike Shields
Help me. This is probably a, either a dated or maybe generalization of how my perception is that the TikTok algorithm is. It feels erratic or random or you hear creators say, well, I have a, I have X amount of subscribers on YouTube. I kind of know what my views are going to be each week. TikTok, I don't know. And that, that might be dated. How do. So I guess is that accurate? And how do you make a show that, with, with that nature of that algorithm that, you know, control or.
- [10:18]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, I, I think it's no different than YouTube, to be honest with you. From. I mean, listen, there are days and the. But I guess the same on YouTube. There's days where you post something and you think it's going to get consistent with the rest of the.
- [10:29]
Mike Shields
Write an article and no. And no one reads.
- [10:31]
Saul Batesh
Right, right. And there are days when it's like it just doesn't hit that. That happens on every Internet platform out.
- [10:38]
Mike Shields
There for whatever number of reasons. Yeah, at that moment.
- [10:40]
Saul Batesh
Exactly. But when we went into this business we said one of our sort of advantages is we're going to build a team of like the most creative people in this business that are going to do the work to make sure that we're getting consistent views. So it is hard as an individual creator for sure because you're trying to think of creative content to put out on a day to day basis that's going to keep your audience interested and those that have done it individually is, it's an amazing feat for us. We're as a team sitting and doing that all day. So we say we're going to keep our stuff consistent. That's our business. And so if you say you need to do it, you know we're going to do it. Especially when you have a great team.
- [11:15]
Mike Shields
We actually, you and I met at a conference a couple months ago. We talked about this because I'm making you repeat yourself. But there is an idea I think over the years and it's, I'm again making sweeping generalizations whether you want slates of shows on platforms like YouTube and TikTok, whether that makes any sense, whether it's always going to be creator driven and a bit like inconsistent and putting out content when it comes out, or whether you want to have like series and predictability. It sounds like you've found that predictable shows make sense.
- [11:42]
Saul Batesh
I mean in entertainment you want to push the envelope always. But there's a level of consistency in entertainment in general that you, you need to stick to. And so I do think that the Internet, well, you know, specifically YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, all of these platforms are real entertainment platforms and that comes with consistent formats, leading talent, sort of the basics that have been in the Entertainment business for 100 years plus. So bringing that maturity to these platforms in a way where you're telling the story that the younger generation sort of wants to hear and is used to, you're not making a scripted drama for YouTube, I mean you're just not going to do that. But in terms of consistent format, great talent, it's making sure that you're continuing to entertain your audience. That stuff goes without saying. Even though we're on these quote unquote, newer, more modern platforms.
- [12:35]
Mike Shields
Yeah, and I'm sure that's true with, with marketer. It was a question whether people, you know, the consumers wanted that. But marketers always love, they like consistency and oh yeah, predictability and you know, you're going to be around. I want to ask you, generally I'm going to go back to how you work with brands, but just broadly, I'm asking everybody this and it's probably not a fair question, but how are brands doing in the creator universe overall, in your opinion? Are they, is it all over the place? Are they investing enough? Is it slow going? Is it still like kind of bucketed? In a weird way, I think brands.
- [13:08]
Saul Batesh
Know that they need to spend in influencer and in creator like they know it, but when they get to it, in some cases, they're still learning right and wrong in this arena. Now, it's not that complicated. What I mean by that is if you look at TV commercials now, I mean, they're boring, but there is such thing as entertaining TV commercials, right? I mean, they've been on before. If you think about the super bowl.
- [13:35]
Mike Shields
It'S yeah, parents things are very like, there's some terrible stuff, but there's some great ones.
- [13:41]
Saul Batesh
Right, Right. And I think brands are approaching creator content with this mindset of, you know, we need to do extra, we need to give extra briefs, we need to give extra information, we need to work with a thousand different influencers. And I think it's indicative of the time that they're still figuring it out. And I think it's actually more simple than that. Forget about you being the head of marketing at a giant conglomerate. When you pull this video up on your phone, do you smile or not? Do you like this creator as a person? Yeah, as a person, do you enjoy it? Forget about the 50,000 bullet point list of your brand.
- [14:21]
Mike Shields
You don't need to focus group everything. Right?
- [14:23]
Saul Batesh
Just look at it as a human and say, is this something I want to be a part of? Is this something that I think, could we come up with something creative for our brand? Pick five to 10 creators that do really well, that make great content and give them the keys and let them, and let them roll. And I think brands are slowly getting there. They're slowly giving up that control and saying, hey, you guys know better than us, but, but it's not there yet. It's really very, very early days still. As much as we talk about creator marketing, maybe we've been talking about it for 10 years, it still feels like.
- [14:53]
Mike Shields
You'Re having the same conversation. I mean, I'm going to guess if it's a newer challenger brand, they're more on board with this than, I don't know, Johnson or something like that.
- [15:01]
Saul Batesh
No question.
- [15:02]
Mike Shields
Now you've been at this for a while. Is there, is there a consistent way that brands come to you? Do you like, have you figured that out? Is it still like, you know, somebody finds you and they give you a call? Do you go meet with all the agencies? Like what does it look like right now for you?
- [15:15]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, I mean we get, it's amazing. We get a ton of inbound. Of course we have a, we have an amazing sales team. But I think the inbound speaks to the, the popularity of our shows. And what I mean by that is I tell our team that our audience, our fans are not just the viewers, the Gen Z viewers that we're trying to hit. They are also our customers like the Gen Z and millennial team members at these large brands are watching our content.
- [15:40]
Mike Shields
They are advocates.
- [15:41]
Saul Batesh
Right, exactly. And so we'll get wake up and get an email from large Fortune 100 brand and that's that that's amazing. It also speaks to the, I think the changing media landscape. Of course that goes without saying it. The brave brands have worked with us but, but are now increasingly changing is like they would call us up and be like, hey, we got a new campaign for X new release. Let's do one video on X show and just add you to the list.
- [16:09]
Mike Shields
Of other things you're doing.
- [16:10]
Saul Batesh
Like exactly. Here we have, we have a, you know, we're going after 100 different really popular creators. You're on that list, we'd love to work with you. Okay. But what happens is a brands look at influencer spending like I said, as sort of okay, we're trying a lot of different things and I think they don't take enough of a bet. And so what we've been able to do over the past couple of months, I think the tide has really changed to say to a brand, hey, why don't we work together over a longer period of time? And if you like the show, if you like the show and you like what we did, let's build out a custom segment like that Weston Beds campaign that we did that was a multi part segment and people couldn't wait to watch it. So why don't we work together like that? The same way you would take out a large sponsorship deal on a, on an NBA team. Why don't you do the same with us? And that way we're able to take larger created bets. We can sort of focus on how do we get the most views and get people actually excited to watch these branded videos. That's one way. And the other way is we have a network of really popular content that we create. We're sort of building that modern day mtv. And so when we work with brands, specifically with, for example, we did an overall deal with Prime Video this last year where they have a lot of new releases, we've got a lot of content. Every new release hits a different demo. And our shows, it has some different demos, get the opportunity to plug into different shows at different times the same way they would with work with NBC, for example.
- [17:35]
Mike Shields
You know this, this question comes up a lot. It's more so I think when you're talking about. It comes up a lot with YouTube. How do I compare this to my other TV? Are they fine with, hey, these, these are numbers we got from TikTok, let's say, and that's how the show did. Do they want you to have all this other research or make it fit their data?
- [17:52]
Saul Batesh
They're using every brand and that's why I, that's why I say it's. They're still figuring it out. Every brand is different. Every brand wants something different. What I mean by that is some brands come to us, they want, of course they want view. Every brand wants views. But some brands are more focused on what were the views. And the brands that are more focused on the views are actually allow us to do our thing because they understand that that's what they need to do to get the views. Some brands are looking at the engagement, they're looking at the comments. They want to see how excited people were about the product that you're making. And honestly some brands, they just love the content that you're making and they want to be a part of it.
- [18:24]
Mike Shields
Yeah, the association which was, that's. They, they loved being on, I don't know, American Idol because it was hot at one point. Like, they just love. Yeah, brands love that stuff.
- [18:33]
Saul Batesh
Exactly. And that gives us the opportunity again to sort of say, hey, great working together. Let's figure out how to get to a larger, larger sort of commitment. Not again, not from just a monetary perspective, but we want to make ads that are groundbreaking that people love to watch on these platforms and we want the opportunity to show that we can do that. And I would say even over the past six months, brands have slowly started to get. They're like, oh, we want to be on that show. Four years ago, if I said TikTok show or Instagram reels show, they'd be like, I don't really understand what is. Yeah, what does that mean?
- [19:07]
Mike Shields
Are they on you to make, to prove that you sold stuff for them? It doesn't seem like the nature of this kind of viewership.
- [19:13]
Saul Batesh
No, I, but I think the truth is that advertising is a weird, weird thing because listen, if you're doing Google AdWords, I think it's very easy to see if you're able to convert Amazon ads, whatever. Yeah, for sure. I think creator content, it's, it's definitely harder to, to, to, to see a level of conversion, but it's a brand awareness play.
- [19:32]
Mike Shields
Okay, obvious element in the room. Question. You have built a lot, you have built your company around short form. You have a lot of built projects for TikTok. What are you doing right now? Is it weird? Is it uncertain? Do you just have to keep running until things change? Like what's, what's the state of affairs?
- [19:47]
Saul Batesh
Yeah, I, I mean, what I, I think the Supreme Court is expected to come out, I'm just going to say any minute now. So about their decision. But I mean for us, look, TikTok invented the short form swipeable format as an entertainment format. They, they did invent that. But you have Instagram reels now. You've got YouTube shorts. We have a really strong audience on, specifically on Instagram reels. And so I'd love for it to stay, I'd love for, for some deal to get done where, you know, an American company can come in and buy a majority.
- [20:21]
Mike Shields
It's a bad product or you know.
- [20:23]
Saul Batesh
Like it's a great product. If Trump can figure out how to negotiate that one, I'm all for it. Obviously. I think that for us we're focused on making great content and whatever platforms that those live on. We're a studio. So wherever we can put our stuff, where it gets the views we're in. And I think Instagram is a great example of that. I will say also I think a lot of, a lot of People are just 170 million users in America that use TikTok. They're going to move over to Instagram. And then from a brand perspective from, you know, advertising dollars, a lot of brands have sort of allocated their budgets to TikTok for the year. For us, I actually think it's an opportunity. If they're sitting and deciding, money might free up where they need to put that money. And for us, we've got reliable ip, consistent views, really strong standout talent. I think we're a pretty like reliable, forward thinking place to sort of put that money. So I mean, we'll see. That's how I'm maybe I'm thinking very positive. But yeah, yeah, that's how I'm thinking.
- [21:24]
Mike Shields
About it are most, are most of your shows on every short form platform and that's just so you're covered in this to it to an extent for sure.
- [21:33]
Saul Batesh
I mean there aren't that many other ones. It's really Instagram reels I think is going to get a lion's share of that money, that brand money if TikTok goes away. I think YouTube shorts make a little bit of it. YouTube shorts as a product I think is still, it's still maturing, I want to say interesting. And then that's it. There really isn't another.
- [21:52]
Mike Shields
Like I've seen stories about some up and comers. I don't know. I don't, I don't know enough to.
- [21:56]
Saul Batesh
Know that Spotlight is one but I've, I've used it and it's still, I think it's still needs a little bit of work. There's this new app called RedNote which is I think really just trolling this idea that a ch. America is trying to take a Chinese app down. But in this app literally there's barely in English. The whole thing is a Mandarin. So I. People are saying it's going to be the next big thing. I. I'll leave my hat if, if that happens.
- [22:18]
Mike Shields
Right. Do you desire. You mentioned YouTube shorts is.
- [22:23]
Saul Batesh
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Mike Shields
Still a maturing product. Because I was, I was wondering some of these formats you, you could theoretically lend themselves to tv. Do you see that ever? Do you want to. You know, I don't know how many people watch TikTok on TV there. You can but shorts seems to have some traction there.
- [22:39]
Saul Batesh
That's sort of the. If you look at the roadmap for us, it starts with a short form series, successful short form series. That is a, I would say a lower, lower cost way to get a show off the ground. And if that's successful and we can start to build a strong fan base, we look at the next step for us is what's the longer form. We're not just going to take our shows and just stretch them out, make them long, five minute. That I wouldn't do that. Like if we were going to do a YouTube series, what's a really standout, kick ass format that we can make for YouTube that will really jump off. I say jump off the page, jump off the algorithm in a big way off the bat. And that's how you sort of start to get that going. And if that's successful, sit down and talk to sort of TV studios and I mean we've spoken to a lot of the traditional cable companies and trying to figure out a way to bridge the gap between cable which brings in, you know, which puts off a ton of cash and makes a ton of money, but is on the decline and, you know, sort of creator original content made for these platforms that get massive viewership but don't make nearly the same amount of money that cable does. How do you bridge that gap? And that's something that we're trying to figure out with some potential partners. The whole industry is really exciting. It's. We're in the second inning, maybe the first.
- [23:55]
Mike Shields
Yeah. Yeah. The. There's We.
- [23:57]
Saul Batesh
You.
- [23:58]
Mike Shields
It's hard to. It's harder. You have to remind yourself how I'm just. This whole short form thing is only a few years old. And yes, it, it's pretty wild how people's consumption habits have shifted so rapidly. And.
- [24:09]
Saul Batesh
And we'll continue.
- [24:10]
Mike Shields
Yeah. But there's. There's probably something that we don't even understand that's coming around. Yeah.
- [24:14]
Saul Batesh
100%.
- [24:15]
Mike Shields
So. Awesome conversation. Let's. Let's do this again sometime. But thanks so much for insights here.
- [24:19]
Saul Batesh
Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Mike.
- [24:21]
Mike Shields
Thanks again to Fallen Media, Saul Batesh and my partners in View Planner. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's next in Creator Media. Thanks for listening.