What's it like for Advertisers to Wait Around for the DOJ, and Google

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next in Media – "What's it like for Advertisers to Wait Around for the DOJ, and Google"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Next in Media
• Host: Mike Shields
• Description: Everything we know about the media, marketing, and advertising business is being completely upended thanks to technology and data. We're talking with some of the top industry leaders as they steer their companies through constant change.
• Episode Title: What's it like for Advertisers to Wait Around for the DOJ, and Google
• Release Date: November 12, 2024

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Guest: Megan Jones, Chief Digital Officer at Digitas

In this episode of Next in Media, host Mike Shields engages in an in-depth conversation with Megan Jones, Chief Digital Officer at Digitas. They delve into several pressing issues currently shaping the media and advertising landscape, including the Google antitrust trial, the ongoing challenges with cookies, the rise of retail media, the complexities of Connected TV (CTV), the role of TikTok and creators, and the imperative of sustainability in digital advertising.

1. Google Antitrust Trial and Its Implications

Discussion Highlights:

• Megan's Perspective: Megan emphasizes the significance of the Google antitrust trial, noting that it has garnered widespread attention not just within media circles but also among clients who heavily rely on Google’s platforms. She stresses the importance of not overreacting and advises clients to stay informed and prepared for potential changes.

Notable Quotes:

• [01:37] Megan Jones: “We counsel clients to not overreact, to follow it closely, to think about what implications can be.”
• [03:03] Megan Jones: “Google makes workflow really easy for our teams and for our clients. There is an aspect of that that has been incredibly valuable to how we work efficiently.”

Insights:

• Megan discusses the dual nature of Google’s offerings, highlighting both the benefits of integrated workflows and the potential disruptions a breakup could cause.
• She anticipates that while immediate changes might be minimal, the long-term impact could drive significant innovation within the industry.

2. The Cookie Conundrum: Evolution and Adaptation

Discussion Highlights:

• Ongoing Challenges: Both Mike and Megan acknowledge that the issue of third-party cookies remains unresolved, echoing industry frustrations about prolonged uncertainty.
• Digitas’ Approach: Megan outlines Digitas’ strategy of continuous testing and learning to adapt to the shifting landscape of digital tracking and identity solutions.

Notable Quotes:

• [05:02] Megan Jones: “We’re very actively trying to find solutions for [the cookie issue].”
• [06:42] Megan Jones: “How do you continue to test, learn and move on if it doesn't work so that you are not caught off guard when the balance shifts more directly.”

Insights:

• The conversation touches on the diminishing urgency around cookies due to delayed regulatory actions, leading to some industry complacency.
• Megan emphasizes the importance of maintaining flexibility and not becoming overly dependent on any single technology or solution.

3. Retail Media: Growth and Consolidation

Discussion Highlights:

• Market Expansion: Retail media is experiencing explosive growth, particularly in the UK, where ad spend is leading globally. Megan discusses how brands are increasingly viewing their own digital properties as valuable advertising platforms.
• Consolidation Trends: Megan anticipates some level of consolidation in the retail media space, driven by the need for standardized data and measurement practices.

Notable Quotes:

• [18:47] Megan Jones: “Retail media is interesting to me because at this point in time it's not just retailers that are in the business.”
• [21:36] Megan Jones: “Agencies and clients are going to push for consolidation and then we'll probably end in some happy medium where there's consolidation in certain points.”

Insights:

• The shift towards retail media is not just limited to traditional retailers but extends to brands recognizing their websites as valuable advertising platforms.
• Megan highlights Digitas’ unique position in navigating both the sell-side and buy-side of retail media, providing comprehensive strategic insights to clients.

4. Connected TV (CTV) and the Quest for Universal IDs

Discussion Highlights:

• Fragmentation Challenges: Megan points out the fragmented nature of the CTV ecosystem, with numerous platforms each handling audience targeting and measurement differently.
• Walled Gardens: The persistence of walled gardens like Amazon and Disney complicates efforts to create unified identification systems across CTV platforms.

Notable Quotes:

• [09:39] Megan Jones: “I would say some of the legacy streaming partners... understand how to offer audience first targeting capabilities and measurement.”
• [11:39] Megan Jones: “Walled gardens to me have become just, you know, regular day at the office kind of in the world of media.”

Insights:

• The lack of a universal ID system in CTV presents significant challenges for advertisers seeking consistency in audience targeting and measurement.
• Megan advocates for continued patience and persistence from agencies and clients to develop solutions that enhance transparency and effectiveness across diverse platforms.

5. TikTok and the Role of Creators in Media Planning

Discussion Highlights:

• Cultural Relevance: Megan underscores TikTok’s role as a hub for cultural discovery, making it an essential platform for brands to engage with consumers authentically.
• Creator Integration: Digitas has developed proprietary tools, like SWAT (Shareworthy and Trending), to identify and collaborate with creators who align with brand values and cultural trends.

Notable Quotes:

• [12:43] Megan Jones: “We keep a close eye on what's happening, but at the same time, our job is to understand it inside and out and counsel our clients how to be on it actively and effectively.”
• [14:01] Megan Jones: “We think about the role that those creators play and how to choose creators that make the most sense for the brands that we partner with.”

Insights:

• The integration of creators into broader media strategies requires a nuanced approach that balances authenticity with strategic objectives.
• Digitas’ approach emphasizes rapid content creation and deployment to capitalize on fleeting cultural moments, ensuring brands remain relevant and engaging.

6. Sustainability in Digital Advertising

Discussion Highlights:

• Future Focus: Megan believes sustainability will become a critical topic in the next five years, drawing parallels to how brand safety evolved within the industry.
• Current State: While not yet a top priority for most clients, Megan advocates for ongoing dialogue and the development of actionable solutions to reduce the digital advertising footprint.

Notable Quotes:

• [26:18] Megan Jones: “I care very much about it. I think it's a thing that we're going to be talking about in earnest in, let's say, five years.”
• [27:09] Megan Jones: “We're not there yet in terms of it being top of mind... but we continue to bring it up to clients and continue to talk about it.”

Insights:

• The conversation acknowledges the growing awareness of environmental impacts within digital advertising, highlighting the need for sustainable practices.
• Megan emphasizes the responsibility of the industry to innovate and implement strategies that mitigate environmental concerns, even if widespread adoption is still in progress.

7. Creativity vs. Data-Driven Approaches

Discussion Highlights:

• Balancing Act: Megan critiques the current trend of prioritizing data and performance metrics over creative inspiration, suggesting that the industry has lost some of its artistic edge.
• Creative Revival: She advocates for a renewed focus on creativity to inspire both consumers and brands, integrating artistic elements with data-driven strategies.

Notable Quotes:

• [24:19] Megan Jones: “I think, like, inspiring consumers and brands. Inspiring consumers. Not just creators. Inspiring consumers. I think that art has sort of disappeared from our industry.”
• [25:38] Megan Jones: “It’s actually thinking about what do you want to create, what's the magic you want to inspire with consumers.”

Insights:

• Megan highlights the importance of maintaining a creative balance to engage audiences meaningfully, ensuring that advertising remains not just effective but also impactful and memorable.
• This perspective encourages a holistic approach where creativity and data coexist to enhance overall campaign success.

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Conclusion:

This episode of Next in Media offers a comprehensive exploration of the dynamic and often tumultuous landscape of modern media and advertising. Megan Jones provides valuable insights into navigating regulatory challenges, adapting to technological shifts, leveraging emerging platforms, and advocating for sustainable and creative practices. Her strategic outlook underscores the necessity for flexibility, continuous learning, and a balanced approach that harmonizes data with creativity to drive meaningful engagement and business outcomes.

Timestamp Overview:

• 00:00 - 01:05: Epsilon Digital Advertisement
• 01:07 - 28:06: Main Content with Megan Jones

Key Topics Covered:

1. Google Antitrust Trial
2. Cookie Tracking Challenges
3. Retail Media Expansion
4. Connected TV (CTV) Dynamics
5. TikTok and Creator Integration
6. Sustainability in Advertising
7. Creativity vs. Data-Driven Strategies

For those interested in the evolving intersections of media, technology, and advertising, this episode provides substantial insights and practical perspectives from a leading industry expert.

Transcript

[Mike Shields]

Marketers, you know, every interaction matters, but all those channels make it hard to connect the dots. With Epsilon Digital, our real time predictive AI lets you recognize each person in every channel and dynamically create a relevant message for each one. And you learn from every interaction driving sales and strengthening relationships. Get the most from your marketing [e-mail] that's epsilon.com this week on Next Media, I spoke with Megan Jones, Chief Digital Officer at Digitas. Megan and I covered off all the big media and advertising hot topics at the moment, such as what does she want to have happen with the Google antitrust trial? What do our clients actually think? Megan and I also talked about the realities of sustainable advertising, the problems with identifiers and ttv, and just where to park creators in the broader media planning landscape. Let's get started. Hi everyone. Welcome to Next to Media. I'm Mike Shields. I'm here with Megan Jones. She's the Chief Media Officer at Digitas. Hey Megan, how's it going? Thanks for being here.

[Megan Jones]

Hi. Great. Thanks for having me.

[Mike Shields]

I'm excited to talk to you because I never get the. We've been talking a lot about the last few months about all these big issues in the industry, but particularly this. We in the, you know, I guess trade media and analyst world are obsessed with the Google trial and what it means. You know, we all. You often hear a lot of frustration and anger from ad tech and from publishers. I wonder if you are hung up on it and you and your clients, are you watching this with anticipation? Do you anticipate a lot of big changes in your life? Is it like life goes on right now? We can't deal with this? What is it? What is your pov?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah, I think first, it's the first moment where my parents actually care about what I do because obviously, oh, I.

[Mike Shields]

Read about this thing, right.

[Megan Jones]

It's making headlines, which makes it kind of fun in some ways. Definitely following it and definitely following it closely. I mean, I think in my role. But also what we coach, like all of the media folks at Digitas to think about is, you know, how do we provide updates to our clients, how do we help counsel them where they need counsel? And you know, this is a big one, right? And this is one of those places where I think in particular it's interesting at Digitas because we have media clients, but then we have clients that are not media clients. And so this is a headline that everyone cares about. Right. And that's really important because not everyone is as familiar with the impact about the conversation about the impact of the rulings and what might happen. And it's tough because Google represents such value to our clients. Right. There's so much that we do with Google across the industry, not even specifically with Pelosi's group. It's all holding companies, all advertising agencies that do. And so really I would say teasing out what matters and when it actually will matter is really important. I think we counsel clients to not overreact, to follow it closely, to think about what implications can be. And quite frankly, it's our job as folks that are able to help them navigate change, to help them understand when they should react and why they should react. Right.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. And the when in this case is tricky because I'm not an expert, but it seems like these things drag out and they could be repealed. So there might not be actual real change for a while.

[Megan Jones]

Exactly.

[Mike Shields]

I guess, I wonder, like do you have a sense of, I mean there's so many scenarios but, but if there is some kind of sell off or breakup, will that change your life and your client's life dramatically? Is it really the devil's in details? Like what do you anticipate there?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah, I mean I think one aspect of it is, is holistic, integrated Google makes workflow really easy for our teams and for our clients. Right. There is an aspect of that that has been incredibly valuable to how we work efficiently, how we invest dollars efficiently.

[Mike Shields]

That's underappreciated, I think.

[Megan Jones]

Right.

[Mike Shields]

That feels monopolistic, but no, that actually makes your life better.

[Megan Jones]

Right. And, and considering how much conversation these days is around AI making teams work more efficiently, like in many ways Google represents that. Right. And so I do think the impact there will be significant and I think that's impact that will have potential, you know, impact on clients. Of course. Beyond that, I mean, I think, you know, I'm not great at fortune telling what's going to happen in the future because I kind of am somebody who's more pragmatic and likes to kind of wait and see how it's all going to play out. But sometimes when there's huge disruption, it leads to great innovation. So I could see that as an outcome too. But it's one of those things where I think I'm just closely watching. I'm counseling our teams to closely watch and sort of wait till the cards fall.

[Mike Shields]

There's a similar situation going on with Cookies is going on forever Limbo. And you know, I also, it's another thing we all get so hyped up about an analyze to death. I wonder Again, it's going to depend on your clients and their, their, the level of, I guess, programmatic targeting that they do. But are your clients like sort of frozen in time and don't know what to do? Do you have to kind of move on as if they're going away tomorrow? Is it just another wait and see situation? What is that like right now?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah, it's so funny because. Right. Like, like we could have been having this conversation five years ago and the topic would have been the same in terms of cookies, because it was.

[Mike Shields]

A number of times I've written post Cookie World actually never happened is amazing.

[Megan Jones]

I know. It's become one of the greatest jokes, I think in a certain way in our industry. So here's what I would say. When, you know, post Cookie World as a concept first started being discussed, the fact that there was such urgency behind it, I think put a lot of pressure in a good way behind the types of conversations we were having with clients. Right. Because basically what we were trying to figure out is what was a durable identity solution going to be as it sort of the can got kicked down the road and in some ways maybe there was the perception of less seriousness around it. I think the pressure kind of came off to a certain degree in the client's minds and in some cases, I think with agencies as well. At the same time, we continued to bring thought leadership forward about what a cookie list feature would look like and continue to bring solutions forward. Right.

[Mike Shields]

And does that mean that behavior doesn't really change? It's just talk until you can do it or.

[Megan Jones]

It had been a lot of talk for a while. But I also think, you know, I have the benefit of being at public group and obviously with epsilon. That's a great solution for identity. So we were able to introduce that topic and that that opportunity to clients kind of early on and take the time to educate them and coach them on what that was going to be all about. Right. When the timeline changed. I feel like the urgency changed to a certain degree. But what we've been pushing for, and I would say particularly with performance clients, which Digitized has quite a few of, is testing. How do you continue to test, learn and move on if it doesn't work so that you are not caught off guard when the balance shifts more directly.

[Mike Shields]

Away from that is still an important thing that's happening.

[Megan Jones]

Very much so. Very much so. And that's consistently something that we're bringing up with clients. I think there's some pushing we need to do. I don't think clients Heads are all there right now with the urgency that used to be there. But it is something that we are.

[Mike Shields]

Actively pursuing not to get hung up on this issue. What happened? There were so many companies that built these, like Cookie, the solutions, whole, like cottage industry. Their lives are upended. Are they. Are they out there? Are you still. Are you working with those kind of companies? Or do they all have to sort of, you know, hit the brakes?

[Megan Jones]

I feel like we. We continue. Like, I love hearing about new offerings. Right. And I love hearing about solutions that are out there. So to us, we're entertaining conversations with lots of different partners. But again, it's sort of like the best way to learn is to test. Right. And see if it works and then if it doesn't work, move on to the next. Right. So that sort of is the mindset that we have. I agree, though, that it was. It was a hot thing and it has become less so. And I think there's actually been a lot of consolidation or there's been a lot of companies that have disappeared. And partly it's because of the time that's gone on. Right. And progress in terms of data and tracking and everything else.

[Mike Shields]

Really sort of a natural thing that happens.

[Megan Jones]

Yep.

[Mike Shields]

Okay, let's take a quick break. I'm here with Ben, folks. He's the vice president of Business development at Epsilon. Hey, Ben.

[Ben]

Hey there.

[Mike Shields]

So, Ben, retail media has been exploding in the US where it's almost every other company on the planet, is becoming an ad company. Are you seeing the same kind of trends abroad?

[Ben]

We definitely are. I'd say it's different depending on where you are. I'm proud to say that the UK is leading the. Leading the march in the UK. We're about 2 billion in ad spend ahead of the next closest market. But it's definitely alive and kicking over here. It's growing with retailers mainly, but we are starting to see shoots in different verticals now where they're getting excited about what they can do in this space.

[Mike Shields]

What are some of the trends and maybe some of the obstacles you see in those markets, where in the US you've seen a lot of push for standards and reunification, things like that.

[Ben]

Yeah, definitely, that's what we're seeing. So the IAB have been fantastic in trying to create the benchmarks across different retailers. Obviously it gets quite difficult. Every retailer is different, so that's definitely a trend we're seeing. I think what's quite exciting for me is brands starting to trust more in retail media now, whereas before it was quite transactional. I think that trust is enabling brands to kind of start digging deeper into their pockets and go higher up the funnel.

[Mike Shields]

All right, great stuff, Ben. Thanks for your time.

[Ben]

No worries.

[Mike Shields]

Thanks for having me shifting gears a little bit. But along the same lines, the. In ctv, you know, the. The idea has been for a while that it's going to be just like digital, but with all the greatness of TV and you don't have this cookie thing to deal with, which is, I guess, a good thing. But do we need a universal id? Is that possible? Is there a way to. Is every campaign and client going to have to do things differently? I know that's a lot of questions in one, but what does that look like right now in terms of bringing that to the level you want it to be?

[Megan Jones]

So the brilliance to me is the world of ctv, and I'm a huge, huge content consumer, is how many players there are in the space. Right. And how many of them really consumers want to go to. I think that's amazing. From a consumer standpoint, it does present one of the biggest challenges, right, in advertising, where how do you look for consistency across partners, how do you counsel clients on one universal way of doing things, et cetera. What I would say we found is some of the legacy streaming partners think the world of Amazon, the world of nbcu, in some degree Disney, they understand how to offer audience first targeting capabilities and measurement. And it's because they've been in this business since the beginning. Right. And so we found that with those partners, there's some really robust ways of thinking about audiences and the way that we partner with them. I would say the newer streamers present more of a challenge in some ways when they enter the marketplace. We're going back to square one and sort of reestablishing, okay, how do you build audiences, how do you target, how are you going to measure, et cetera. And so this idea of unification across all I don't think is realistic. I would love to dream that it is, but. But for now, I don't think it is. And so for me, that does represent a challenge on behalf of clients, because obviously we're pushing clients to go where consumers are. We're pushing them to shift dollars into this medium. And so from that standpoint, it's the right place to invest dollars, but it's not equipped with the same solutions that we have in the digital space.

[Mike Shields]

You mentioned that the more experienced players have their audience building capabilities to get together in the new, as you're learning it, but how much of it is it Also that they're sort of playing the walled garden game as well. Like, is that. Is that going to be the same dynamic? Where are they? Disney and whoever. Amazon does it their own way and you've got to use their own identifier and that's life. Or is there a way, is there a way to cut across all that?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah, no, it's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, walled gardens to me have become just, you know, regular day at the office kind of in the world of media. And so, yes, in some cases, I do think that's the case. I think also as new folks enter the market, they're trying to figure out the value equation for what they have to offer. They're trying to think about how best to deliver the revenue they need and how they should partner with advertisers. And so to me, there's a degree of kind of keeping all that close to the vest. But I think, like anything, I think it takes like this happened in social, right, To a degree, it's like patience and persistence from agencies and clients to get to a solution that we're all very comfortable with that helps us be better at how we transact across these partners as well as how we measure. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, that's actually to the benefit of the platforms, not just to the clients.

[Mike Shields]

You brought up social and made me think of this. A little bit of an aside, but how much another thing that's looming forever. Are you and your clients wondering, should we work with TikTok? Should we do anything long term? Do you have to just operate as if it's going to be there forever? What is that like right now?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah, in some ways it's a similar kind of approach that we have to TikTok as we do to Google. You can't ignore TikTok, right?

[Mike Shields]

It's still there.

[Megan Jones]

Like for now, it's there. It's massive. It continues to grow. It continues to be, you know, where culture is discovered. So I think for us, as a full service agency, TikTok plays a really interesting role to us because it's not just a media platform for us, but we actually think a lot about creators and how brands appear on that platform with some of our clients where we just do social strategy. And so we're very aware of all the conversations, again, trying to cut out the noise versus the reality. And so we keep a close eye on what's happening, but at the same time, our job is to understand it inside and out and counsel our clients how to Be on it actively and effectively.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah. The cultural discovery thing is a big one that you just can't ignore.

[Megan Jones]

I mean, it is tremendous. I mean, I can't say I'm a huge TikTok, I'm not a huge poster, I'm a lurker. But. Right. We have, we have a social strategy team that all day, every day they're spending time understanding what's happening on TikTok truly from a cultural perspective. And that like, that is a gold mine of data, insights and just like cultural relevancy that, you know, we do so much with for brands.

[Mike Shields]

You kind of led me to my next question, which is, and it's. You'll have an interesting point of view because you're part of a full service agency, but some of your clients, you have more of their business than others. Others. I guess the creator thing, it seems like a fascinating opportunity but, but unique challenge in terms of like where to put them, how to view them, where to fund them because they do so many different things. They are media, they are commerce, they're influencers. So I don't. Do you have an answer of like how you, where do you put those folks and where and how do you decide how to fund them and, and work with them?

[Megan Jones]

I don't think anyone has it perfect, to be honest. And it's exactly for the reasons you said. Right. It started out as a very media first opportunity. Then we started to say is this actually more pr? Like where does it sit in the ecosystem? I would say we try less to think about like who owns creator within our clients marketing Org and even I would say on our side and more think about the role that those creators play and how to choose creators that make the most sense for the brands that we partner with. Right. So you might have heard we, we have a product called swat. It stands for shareworthy and trending. It is literally an offering we built that allows us to understand what's happening in culture, how it's relevant to a specific brand. How do we actually find creators? Because we have a team of creators that we're partnered with that can create kind of authentic content on behalf of brands. That's because that's where people are discovering brands these days. Right. And so to us, we've made big bets on that Athena space that every brand needs to be active in and making sure that we're doing in a way that feels actually first and foremost authentic to the community the brand wants to engage. So to me, it's not going anywhere whatsoever. I think it is critical role in what we do for brands. And I think for, for us as an agency, because we straddle paid, owned and earned, it sort of sits across all, all aspects of that.

[Mike Shields]

I want to ask you more about that, but I want to dig into the idea. So with the, with swat, like do you have a, when you see you have a stable. Are they like partners for multiple brands or just there? Are they, are they like their formal deals? You just go to them a lot. Like how, what does that look like in practice?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah. So it's two things. One is we're sourcing, you know, the right creators that we believe are right for individual brands. We're not trying to kind of dilute the experience and authenticity of a creator with a specific brand. This is more about. We have a set of folks in particular we lean very heavily into De and I, because that I think is a missing space in the broader creator world. That's been something that's been really important to us and the ability to identify a trend immediately decide if it's right for a brand that we're partnering with and then have a stable of creators to tap into that creates content in many cases within 24 hours that then gets published. Like that is necessary in today's world. Right. Because if you don't jump on it in the moment, the moment will have passed. So our team that focuses on swat, which is led by one of my favorite partners, Christina Goswiler, like she's worked really hard in building out what that is. It's data, it's technology and it's people relationships, quite frankly, to produce the right content for clients.

[Mike Shields]

So that's interesting because that's like a high speed hybrid between creative and media, I guess. But are there other instances where you're just working with giant creator or so? And so because they're a reach play there, it's more of a media buy and you just want to get a lot of eyeballs. Is it kind of run the gamut, what?

[Megan Jones]

I would say yes, with an asterisk to it. So, you know, in our world we would never say to a client it's just about eyeballs. Right. I think authenticity is probably the most important screen that needs to happen when you're thinking about what creators to select and what creators to partner with. I think as consumers we all know when you see basically what is the NASCAR of creator, right, where they have logos kind of associated with them all over the place. And that doesn't work, that doesn't work for the creator. It doesn't work out there. Yeah. And it certainly doesn't work for the community that they're trying to be in front of. And so for us, scale is important, but scale isn't the driver. And so really depending on what the client needs and quite frankly the business outcomes that they want to deliver. Like that's, that's a very nuanced conversation that we're having.

[Mike Shields]

Shifting gears again. I'm just covering off all the hot topics in the industry here. Retail media has been this huge story for a couple years now. The money has shifted is pretty dramatically. All of a sudden there seems like there's a million of these networks. I'm sure that most brands do not work with 50 retail media networks. I could be wrong, but how do you figure that out? Is it hard to get to know all them and wrangle that space? Would you like some kind of consolidation to happen? What does that look like for you?

[Megan Jones]

Yeah. So it's funny, I remember about four years ago having the conversation with my CEO about I think we need to jump on this retail media thing and make sure that we bring in experts that are really going to lead us in the right direction before kind of that tipping point really happened. And so we did, we hired a woman, Krista Klassner, who leads up all things media for the world of commerce. You know, in the last year and a half, Amy Lanzie became our CEO at Digitas, which obviously comes with so much advantage in terms of understanding the landscape. Retail media is interesting to me because at this point in time it's not just retailers that are in the business. Right. Brand airlines, and that's a great example. Brands are realizing that this is a revenue stream. Right. And that their customers or their websites are really valuable to brands in like minded kind of categories. And so I think for us navigating that world and thinking about what are the pure play partners in the space that really are what traditional retail media was all about versus what are the ones that quite frankly are the same way we used to evaluate other valuable digital properties. Right, right.

[Mike Shields]

It's not on like a publisher, like a web or you know, so and so website buy.

[Megan Jones]

Exactly. And so the same type of evaluation we've done for digital media for, you know, decades is sort of the same evaluation that we're doing here. I think the difference becomes a little bit more in terms of the sophistication of the data and measurements that these partners have and what they can offer. Right. And talk about walled gardens, like that's yet another.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, that sounds that Seems very difficult to pull together.

[Megan Jones]

It is. And so I think it is trying to evaluate each and every components of what a partner might offer in the world of retail media. I mean, at this point we have a retail media practice that's somewhere around 90 people. We have a lot of clients that were active in this space, both CPG clients as well as other clients that recognize the value of rmn. And so it really is just about education. It's about getting really close to the big players in the market, but still understanding sort of that long tail of other partners that exist as well and thinking strategically about what you're trying to accomplish for the client. I mean, the biggest thing to me is understanding differentiation. What do you know about your consumers, your customers? That's going to be unique and additive to the investment I'm making. And for some it might be three, and for some it actually might be 20 partners that they want to partner.

[Mike Shields]

With for certain categories of products.

[Megan Jones]

Exactly.

[Mike Shields]

I wonder how you see that evolving. Do you think there is an opportunity for, can someone corral all that? Is that possible? To me, there's a lot of incentive for all those companies to, you know, pool their data right now. But I wonder at some point will there be pressure to do that?

[Megan Jones]

I think, like all things, like in this industry, I think agencies and clients are going to push for consolidation and then we'll probably end in some happy medium where there's consolidation in certain points. I mean, you know, as part of the group, we have epsilon retail media, we have citrus. Those are two ways that consolidation to a certain degree happens. But that can't be the solution for everything. It simply, simply just can't be. So I think again, we're thinking very carefully across, across the, the ecosystem. The other thing that, that I would say is, is interesting to us. And again, this is sort of that, that full service world that I'm lucky enough to be a part of. At Digitas, we actually work on the sell side and the buy side. Some cases we're making decisions about where in retail media we're actually helping clients invest their media dollars. But in other areas, we're counseling clients on how to monetize, you know, their own networks or stand up.

[Mike Shields]

That is interesting.

[Megan Jones]

Right? And so thinking about that means we understand what brands want from retailers and we understand the uniqueness of what retailers or retail media networks have to offer to brands. And so kind of sitting in that intersection, I think gives us a really unique position.

[Mike Shields]

I wonder if that makes judging the rest of your plan so difficult because Everything. It looks awesome. When you run an ad on Instacart and somebody buys something right away. And that's, I'm sure clients get addicted to that and want that, but not every, not every vehicle can work that way. Does it put pressure on everything and make it hard to degrade the effectiveness of a full plan?

[Megan Jones]

It's a good question. I mean, I would say, I think if, if brands are expecting every single instance that their brand appears to actually drive a conversion, then I think that's not understanding the way you saw that.

[Mike Shields]

In the early search days, like people thought.

[Megan Jones]

Exactly, exactly. And so at Digitized, we've become obsessed with this concept of the fluid funnel. Right. So holding media accountable to very specific, very linear actions from consumers is not the way things operate anymore. It's very fluid. There's even an aspect of, and I know I've experienced this embarrassingly so, where I've bought something on Instagram and I don't actually know the brand that I just bought.

[Mike Shields]

Oh yeah, we've all done that.

[Megan Jones]

Right. And then you're like, oh, who was that and how do I find them again? So that fluidity of how people are operating across media, across owned experiences even, and understanding that entire kind of networked experience of a brand and a consumer is really important. And so if you're looking at like, do you expect something to convert immediately? Sure, in some cases you should. Right. But broadly speaking, that's just not, I think, the way that we view the marketing ecosystem anymore.

[Mike Shields]

Let me throw a wild card at you. What is, what, what, what's, what are we not talking about that you think is sort of underappreciated under, under discussing this industry or maybe drives you crazy that we should kind of bring up to the forefront a little bit more.

[Megan Jones]

I would say there are two things. One is, I think we are missing the boat and understanding media and CRM and how the two need to work together.

[Mike Shields]

Okay, interesting.

[Megan Jones]

I think part of that has to do with the fact that marketing organizations often have different stakeholders that are overseeing those two components of the business. But the inordinate value that first party data that customer data has on media and the fact that it's a much.

[Mike Shields]

Bigger part of it than it used to be.

[Megan Jones]

Right, right. And the fact that we haven't bridged those two worlds and we don't think about both components as a critical part of the ecosystem that needs to be connected, the fact that we don't continue to try to woo customers after they've become custom the same way we think about going to prospect. That, to me, is incredibly undervalued in the world of marketing. And I think it's something. The other is, I think, creativity. Right. Like in this world, I think we've started to chase data and numbers in terms of what's performing, what's converting, how do I optimize, et cetera. But I think, like, inspiring consumers and brands. Inspiring consumers. Not just creators. Inspiring consumers. I think that art has sort of disappeared from our industry. And I've been in it long enough to remember when that was the thing and media was sort of an afterthought.

[Mike Shields]

And now we've got a little bit too far the other way.

[Megan Jones]

Yeah. And. And I think it's because, like, context matters so much now. Right. Fighting for attention matters so much now. And it's not just finding the perfect spot to put the brand. It's actually thinking about what do you want to create, what's the magic you want to inspire with consumers. And I think that can happen with a stick of deodorant and it can happen with a movie and it can happen with everything in between. So that creativity, I think, is somewhat missing. And I love that I get to think about that a bit at Digitas, but I do think we could all embrace that more.

[Mike Shields]

That's a good one, too. Last thing for me is the this just to cover off every single buzzword in the industry.

[Megan Jones]

Sustainability.

[Mike Shields]

Sustainability. You knew what I was gonna say. I can't tell. You know, it was very hyped about a year and a half ago. A lot of attention. All of a sudden, oh, my God, I can't believe how much digital advertising generates in terms of, you know, our footprint. And what do we do? Is it having a serious impact? Is. Or is it hyped? And then clients have pulled back, like, what's going on there?

[Megan Jones]

So here's my take. I care very much about it. I think it's a thing that we're going to be talking about in earnest in, let's say, five years. Sort of the same way that brand safety, brand suitability, took a bit of time for people to talk about. I think it's critical we think about it. And I also think there's planning that needs to happen to get to a point where actually this industry can make meaningful impact and have solutions that actually help make meaningful impact. We're not there yet. It's not top of mind with clients. It really isn't.

[Mike Shields]

It's not easy to redo how you do everything overnight. You're in a competitive business and trying to survive.

[Megan Jones]

Exactly. And so I think brands that have made sustainability a core of their business practices anyways are more open to the discussion and they want us to talk about how we can narrow down, you know, the digital footprint of some of the ways we go to market. But I don't think we're there yet in terms of it being top of mind. As a person who cares very much about this in my personal life, like, I think we should continue to bring it up to clients and continue to talk about it and continue to have it be a topic in the industry we're very actively trying to find solutions for. But I just don't think we're there quite yet.

[Mike Shields]

Yeah, that's not an easy one to fix overnight. And there's a, and there's a, you know, that horizon makes sense to Megan, awesome conversation. I know we jumped around quite a bit here, but thanks so much for your insights and hopefully we chat again. Yeah.

[Megan Jones]

Great to meet you. Thank you so much for the conversation as well.

[Mike Shields]

Thanks again to my guest this week, Digitas, is Megan Jones and my partners at Epsilon. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's Next in media. Thanks for listening.