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Why Brands May Need Creators in Their Product Development Teams
00:21:23
Next in Creator Media spoke with Ashley Rudder, Chief Creator Officer, DNY, about how brands need to not just let go of their creative control when working with creators on YouTube and TikTok, but may need to bring this talent in much earlier in the development process to best take advantage of their cultural connections.
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- [00:00]
A
Looking to get more out of your YouTube advertising? With view Planner, you can buy with total confidence and clarity. View Planner is a verified YouTube brand suitability and contextual targeting partner in the YouTube measurement program. Recognized by Google as a trusted and independent leader in driving and measuring performance on YouTube, their advanced technology gives you a clear edge. Only with View Planner we're talking custom curated contextual collections, exclusive content strategies, transparent reporting and AI driven optimization to deliver real results. Don't let your budget go to waste. Partner with View Planner. Experience the difference. Visit viewplanner.com now to unlock your full advertising potential on YouTube. That's V U E P L-A-N-N-E-R.com this week on Next in Creator Media, I spoke with Ashley Rutter. She's the Chief Creator Officer at Deutsche New York. I asked Ashley why a role like hers makes sense in the modern agency world, whether creator activations will ultimately be funded by creative teams or media dollars. Ashley and I also talked about how brands need to not only push past their need to control ad messaging, but to actually embrace creators uni connections to culture and audiences when deciding what products to actually make, which is pretty radical in the traditional marketing world.
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B
So let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to Next in Creator Media. I'm Mike Shields. I'm here with Ashley Rutter. She's the Chief Creator Officer at Deutsch New York. Hey Ashley, thanks for being here.
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C
Hey, so nice to be here. Michael, thank you for having me excited.
- [01:31]
B
To talk to you because I think you are my first person with this title, which sounds very cool and very modern for what the ad world is trying to do. What? So I mean let's start with the easy one. What is that role and what is your job?
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C
I love that you said it is true. I am the only one. For now.
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B
First of many to come.
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C
Yes, for many to come. It's definitely a role that is like, it's an evolved species of a traditional CCO role. Everything I do is like similar to what a classic chief Creative officer does but with additional layers. Like you know, obviously I have a creator's lens because I have, I am a creator, I'm a brand marketer. I have that strategic mindset. Obviously the social platforms, adaptability, production, expert precision. Like all of those things are all packed into one when you get a creator. And so I bring myself in that multidisciplinary skill set and it just gives me a totally different perspective and that's stands ways outside of a garden variety CCO and that's why we went with that title. Because out of everyone that they spoke with at DNY trying to find who was going to be the next to lead the creative at dny, they were just like, you're bringing something totally different, Ashley, and we're loving it.
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B
All right, I want to get into what that stuff that you're bringing is, but what is, is it the Sochi Studio? What is that? How does that fit into what you do every day?
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C
You know, I'll just, I'll start with this.
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B
These are easy questions to begin with. Inside it was going to be like this.
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C
Really, I should. Okay, well, I mean, that was.
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B
That sounded ominous.
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C
Now I'm white knuckling it. Michael. Thanks. Okay, so there you were, totally at.
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B
Ease and now I've ruined it.
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C
I love it. But you know, it's. I found my tribe at DNY because they really understand like my vision of putting community first. Like it's a community first approach. And when you start there, the entire game changes. Like the nuances, the passions, the needs, all of that comes in about serving the audience. And so Soci Studio is me bridging the gap between the industry and other creators like myself who are multifaceted in this industry or who aspire to be, because that's all I sign up for. Soci Studio. Everyone who works at Soci is a creator in their own right. From strategy to production to. To anything anyone touching Sochi is a creator and it's just about us making sure that it's all about scaling. It's all about scaling creator led storytelling and ensuring that there's measurable results. You know, it's a key part of what involves elevating a brand's own and operated channels, of course, to enhance their organic social plays. You know, creating holistic strategies that leverages creators authenticity and you know, all of that deeply resonates with audiences. So the future of creator advertising to me lies in partnerships that are more than surface level with creators because they have the power to do more. And Soci Studio is designed to unleash all of that full potential.
- [04:24]
B
Do you think that's going to be a trend or do you need to like, you know, in the historic, historically, you could, I don't know, make a TV commercial. Doesn't mean you have to be a history of filmmaking. I don't want to diminish the role, but you could be an expert in the creator space theoretically without doing it. But it sounds like you think it's a big advantage.
- [04:41]
C
Oh, it's a massive advantage. I mean, it's really, it's truly, again, not to be disrespectful. This comes with all the love and affection because it's just a reality. You can have a hypothesis in a lab any day of the week. But when you let that bad boy out into the real world, that's a totally different ballgame, baby. And as a creator, they're seasoned. They have been there doing the thing since it started, especially in the beauty industry. Like they were, you know, we were the first creators on the scene. And so yes, it's a totally different bag. I mean, have you ever been, had something go, go left on your, on your creator channel? And like these people that you know and love and follow you, like, how did you adapt and overcome? These creators have done that like triple fold. How could anyone? How could anyone. You're right. I don't need. That was a dumb question.
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B
No one's ever gotten mad at me as my history, my journalistic career or anything.
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C
It's good. Never, never that. So, you know, you, you get it, you get it. Again, if you haven't been on the platform, because each platform is its own planet. So also if you're not adept to that particular platform, you're going at it all wrong.
- [05:43]
B
Bunch of questions coming out of what you said here, but I want a macro question and I think I know what you're going to say because how are we doing? It's not as though brands have just started to figure this world out, but it still feels early in their maturity of the process and how much they're working with creators overall. So I guess are we under invested or over invested? Are we doing pretty well as an industry? What do you think?
- [06:04]
C
It's a cornucopia of experience and how people are leveraging creators. Yes. Some of the most innovative brands are doing it right. They're really taking, you know, stops. They stopped relegating creator spin to like a small line item on their budget and they're treating their creators more like a fundamental part of the media spin because that's really what it is. And you know, they're kind of two different conversations, but it's really about what is your brand's potential? Like, why would you just do something transactional with them, like a one off. I'm sorry. And also, it's low key or high key, an insult to the audience. The audience is so sophisticated now we know. I mean, there's no random card tricks that are happening here. Sleight of hand is no longer amusing. People are like, okay, Cute. Glad you supported my favorite creator. Thank you for giving them their coins, but I'm not buying your stuff. So that's the energy. And that's why again, I think that the hesitation often stems from like a lack of understanding of the creator economy as a whole, how to measure their roi. How are you navigating authenticity? Are you partnering with the right creator? Because that alone is a big step to ensure that there's accountability, which is my job, because I believe that the creator economy can't thrive unless there is also responsibility on the creator side to perform and their commitment to perform for the brands that they partner with. And you know, the real roadblock to me is like just the deeper misconception that, you know, viewing creators just as an extension of an ad placement or, you know, rather than like ad strategic partners with the power to reshape their brand narrative. That's a whole different bag of worms.
- [07:45]
B
You know, and there may not be a straight answer for this or one size fits all for the industry, but yeah, I keep hearing different things. Like, and I think your role says a lot in terms of like where creator deals should sit in brands and agencies. Like, should they be, it sounds like they should not be one off transactional things. Should they be, you know, media placements? Should this come out of the media department? Should they be an extension of the creative. Is it really going to depend? Like, how do you think about that?
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C
I think you're so. Why are you so smart?
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B
I don't know.
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C
That's why I like it. Because you're smart.
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B
I'm just reading notes here.
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C
Listen, you're, you're bang on. It's both. I promise you my answer won't be annoying. When I say both, it's really about, you know, creative partnerships are best when they transcend a simple media buy. But because they aren't just collaborators, they're really unlocking untapped potential, especially for brands owned and operated channels like that. Honestly, to me is the biggest miss for brands outside of like how they're using them as media because, you know, people expect a brand to be an entity. They want to interact with that entity and just saying, oh, I'm just going to slap a creator on this and I can control it through paid media. That's not happening. But you know, you can co create as long as you're not, you know, strangling them.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Constraints around your brief. So that can kind of go left or right. But at Sochi, you know, my team and I, we specialize in building like these Bespoke creator teams that are producing paid media creative that is steeped in those brilliant basics of each platform's paid products. You know, as well as those brand owned and operated assets at scale because you have to feed that beast constantly. And I feel like that's the smartest way to go in my opinion. Because you know, you can always boost that stuff later, watch it perform. Let's see, let's see if it becomes, you know, a part into the cultural. Yeah. And then you, then you boost it and then that's, that's when things really start getting interesting and cool. Because you know, again, like people come to us and like you want a whole world built. We can do that. We can create a micro social channel just for this one activation because we have a kajillion collaborators that we work with. And who knows, you may say, oh no, no, no, I need high production. Ashley. No, only TVC level for me. I'm like, not a problem. We have creators with drones and cinematic flair and you know, it's just a.
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B
Laundry list of breath is just, it's crazy.
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C
The breath and the depth is beyond what I think people really and truly understand. So I think that it's really just about the asset mix and you just have to figure out what's your way in, what's the platform, who you're trying to reach, what's the way in, where's the weakness in your, in your creative team? And they can be injected into that and really enhance that.
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B
Are there without giving away anything proprietary for clients, are there good examples of some work you've been part of with creators and clients or something you've just admired in the industry that are examples of the kind of stuff we're talking about?
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C
Sure, certainly. Well, just just to toot our own little horn here, Michael, we have this part. I love that you're giggling at me like this. Hilarious.
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B
I'm just trying to get through without losing, losing composure here.
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C
I love it. So, you know, I think a real standout example of our approach with this is CityMD. I'm really pumped that this just hit TikTok and we help them out with their TikTok campaign. And this is a tough category.
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B
I was gonna say that's not a brand. I would think you. I thought it would say beauty or something movies or something fun.
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C
No, we like the hard stuff. Throw the hard stuff at us. And because that's who needs this type of help. Even, I mean the big ones too. But especially like, you know, this medical sector, we started putting posting things 24 hours later, it's like at 300k views, it hit that, that cultural jet stream and it's just going off with a duet. But, you know, it's all about us using those native bells and whistles within the platform. Because again, I'm working with creators so they can create an app they're not scared to create on a phone. It's just like anyone else. They don't need three months.
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B
Shoot. Like, they don't need to know.
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C
They don't ex. Hello. Like literally. They even still shock me now where I'm like, oh, they need 24 hours. And sometimes they're back in like three and it's done and it looks pretty flawless and I'm all, this is. This is done.
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B
That's amazing.
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C
Yeah, this is dumb. Good.
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B
What are. You've kind of hinted at some of this already, but what are some things brands should think about when they're working with creators? You know, like what. Where do things go wrong? Is it just like trying to take too much control, trying to go too slow? Where are the pitfalls?
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C
I think, you know, of course I, I always feel like I roll my eyes when they're like, yeah, the creators do what they do best, you know, take the, Let them take the wheel. I'm like, yeah, that's boilerplate, man.
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B
Do you really?
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C
Yeah. I mean, come on. Do you. Are you actually. But you know, put it into practice for real. But also do it the real deal. What are you trying to actually do? You say you're trying to push a product. Yeah. Do you know if your product's even good or is it just like a bunch of people who again, back in the laboratory thinking they, they know what's going on and what people want? Like, if you really act. That's the mistake. Creators talk to individuals every single day in a vertical. Why in the heck would you not have them in your product development team? Why would you not have them on your.
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B
Probably scary. Right. For certain brands to, to get that early in the process, but it makes sense.
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C
But why, like, what are they doing? This isn't like, this isn't a nuclear facility. Like, they're not. I mean, come on.
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B
Right?
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C
Put them in the room.
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B
Right. The Russians are not going to take the secrets somehow if something gets out.
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C
Seriously. It's not that deep, Michael. That's what I'm trying to say. Just get them in there and that.
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B
Way you have that almost like real time focus group turn on.
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C
Yeah. You can align those shared values, you know, the goals up front. Holistically now, you know, like really and truly holistically. And that's why we like, we love this integrated thing that we're doing at DNY with our classic creative for dny and then we have our, you know, like the Sochi studio that's moving quick and doing it big in a really meaningful way for brands, for paid and organic. But it's just like the whole world could be doing this. Get out of your silo, right? Talk to real people, do the real thing. And that's the beauty about social. It actually kind of elevates everything. People start doing the right thing when they're accountable to the audience.
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B
Right.
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C
Which is why again, that's where I'm rooted in and that's the vision for Sochi.
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B
Okay, this is probably an impossible question because it's so vast, but are there creators right now that some brands, if they don't know, maybe they know the big names. Are there ones they should be really paying attention to? Are there really, Are there any interesting trends or genres you're seeing or is it just. It's all over the place.
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C
It's all over the place. I'm shaking my head at, you know, because it doesn't matter who the big creator is. You can create beautiful tension with non endemic creators and flip the script like, you know, record scratch, oh, I'm in the middle of my cooking section and you know, oh, someone's wanting to talk to me about this new technology that's helping them cook better. And they've never talked about that before. Oh, cool, now you're reaching a whole new audience. We find the people that are important for that vertical, for that product at that time. And that's based on the secret sauce of looking at what they've been doing, where they want to go, who's not being spoken to from a cultural, like through a cultural lens. Then that's when we tweak the content to start looking more like that person, to start sounding more like that authentic culture to. So it's really about all of these different facets to create a moment. You just better have a lot of money to spend if you're going to rely on a celebrity than a mega. Because you still have to let the conversation trickle down to micro nano mid. Because that's where the subject matter experts are. That's where all of the really exciting niche conversation where people are passionate and they're just basically collapsing funnels and like say less. I'm buying it now because I believe this person, tight relationship with this one.
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B
I Trust them. Okay, I think I know your point of view already, but, like, there's been. There have been attempts at trying to make this easier, to work with a bunch of creators at once with some kind of, like, automated product placements, automated ad buying, you know, to make it a little bit more programmatic, even though it's probably never going to be like, do you think that's possible? Is that, like, a crazy endeavor? Do you see potential there?
- [16:04]
C
Sure. I mean, automation can streamline the process for sure, but it can make more things for you faster, which is great, but it shouldn't replace the human touch. Like, that's what makes creative partnerships and this ecosystem that's inherent to this category.
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B
What makes it good. Right? Otherwise.
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C
Yes, of course, of course. Again, the tools that we provide, like Soci Studio, we provide insights and efficiencies, and the successful partnerships still hinge on understanding the nuances of a creator's voice, the nuances of their audience, and, of course, what is culturally relevant. You have got to be a cultural anthropologist also, on top of all of that, to make sure that this content really sings. Again, anything that can get more content at a faster pace, it's great. It's all about the process, but it's about balance.
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B
You mentioned how you want to make sure you bring accountability to the sector so brands feel confident and come back. Is there ever going to be. Have you figured out, like, what is success? I know that's. Is there ever going to be, like, a standard, you know, way of measuring this where, like, you know, impressions matter, conversions matter, cultural impact matters. Is that ever going to be possible? Is it really going to vary by category, product?
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C
You know what? I don't know if this is going to be a hot take or not, actually. But of course you can measure all the things that you just said, right? Honey, if you want a vanity metric, I can.
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B
Brands love a standard, whether it matters or not, right?
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C
Trust me. Like an emv. Like, I scoff at that. I'm like, okay, that's funny, but did that. Did it convert you? Okay. Oh, great, you made it. Everyone's talking about you, but did they buy anything? So why are you measuring that? And why does that have value? And why are people getting raises off of that? Like, it doesn't make sense.
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B
Right?
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C
My classic favorites are. This is. So you're gonna be like, ashley, are you joking? I'm like, nope. How many times did a post get shared? How many times did that post get bookmarked? How many times did that post have a community behind it? With one comment that has 10,000 comments under that comment. That's what you should be looking at.
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B
It's indicative of interest, passion, like, you know, like stuff, right?
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C
Listen, correct good content. It's like, oh, you have to see this. You won't believe this, right?
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B
I got to tell you about this thing.
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C
I got to tell you about this let's do this together thing.
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B
But that's the most, that's still the most real stuff that you can.
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C
That's your KPI. And again, you don't have to, you don't have to have a fancy dashboard to see that. Everyone can see it, but you're not looking at it every day. Yep, it's all right there.
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B
A lot of agencies and even media companies, they talk about almost having like a regular roster of creators that they work with. Can you lock up deals with creators? And they're our go to. Is that possible? Is that sustainable? Like, what does that look like right now?
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C
That's totally a thing. That's totally a thing. Like, and that's actually what you want. You want the soft touch. You don't want to be, you know, buy it now. The only three, four, you know, the only three left. You know, I mean that's what some of those short term ones feel like. It's just like, come on, fan, like calm down. I need to actually know if this creator is again collecting their coins, which I respect, which I think again, the audience is so cool like that. Yeah, they're like, they don't mind it, but they're like, I'm not buying it yet until I start seeing it two and three and four and five times. Sometimes they talk about it, sometimes it's in the background, sometimes they're doing something totally different. That's. But you keep seeing it. And then if you get those love mark stories and being like, guys, you know this brand, they put extra equity in me. Guess what, I got an extra editor. And they, and they totally heard me. I love this brand so much because they really believe in me and they believe in you and all of that stuff that happens when you have a.
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B
Long term partnership like that really you, you, you feel like, okay, I'm going to be in this with this company.
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C
For a while and they're going to help 100% and. But the marketers just have to be a little bit patient because this is not something you can do overnight. It's just like anything else. Any other relationship, if you push it too hard, too fast, you get the ick. Then they've ghosted you. And now they're looking at you sideways every time they even see you coming their way. And so, you know, that's how people should just look at it. And then you have your fireworks, have your, you know, have your roster, your bench of like really strong players, consistent players. But of course have a little sparkle, too, little flash. And, you know, have someone you do something a little bit shorter with, maybe work with them for a quarter, you know, for an entire season. And you're like, okay, that felt cute for that season and those topics and then you let that go. But you should always be analyzing who's successful, what's hitting, what's the consistent piece. Because everyone's always chasing the viral, which it makes me want to gag just saying that word. I suppose I call it now I'm calling it the cultural jet stream. That's where you want to be. You need consistency. You need to move faster than the rest. Yeah, but it's about consistency and things that matter in a long term. You need longevity of that kind of cultural resonance.
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B
Right. Virus is coming now. Right. But those relationships last.
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C
Exactly. I love that.
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B
I don't know where that. I don't know if that could be. That's a weird. That's a weird way to sum this up. Ashley, awesome conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time out here. Let's talk again soon, please.
- [21:09]
A
Thanks again to my guest this week, Deutsche's Ashley Rudder, and my partners over at View Planner. If you like this week's episode, please.
- [21:15]
B
Take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button.
- [21:19]
A
We'll see you next time for more on what's next in Creator media.
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B
Thanks for listening.