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Why Brands Should Stop Avoiding News with Jack Marshall
00:26:32
Jack Marshall, Head of News at DoubleVerify, explains why advertisers are losing opportunities by avoiding news content. He breaks down the difference between brand safety and brand suitability, showing that most news is actually safe and delivers higher engagement—about 16% more than non-news content. Marshall discusses DV’s work to educate advertisers, reduce unnecessary keyword blocking, and introduce AI tools that help brands use a more nuanced, “scalpel-not-sledgehammer” approach. He also highlights how AI-generated “slop” increases the value of real journalism, why publishers remain optimistic, and how creators and personality-driven news are shaping the future of advertising.
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- [00:00]
A
Research suggests that advertisers are missing out on pretty big opportunities by just opting to avoid news entirely. News content generates 16% more engagement than non news content. So, you know, that's copyright infringement, that's spam, that's illicit content, that's malware, that is not news. They are doing their brand a disservice by failing to capitalize on the opportunities that news content presents. But the vast majority would imply that they're able to sort of separate the two. You know, they're there for the news content.
- [00:26]
B
The real connections are going to stand out amongst all the weirdness that going on with AI this week on Next Media, I spoke to my old Wall Street Journal colleague Jack Marshall about his past year serving as the head of news at Double Verify. Jack and I also talked about the state of the news business when it comes to advertising, where the brands continue to be too blunt, blocking any content they deem potentially unsafe. Jack and I also talk about AI in the open web with a head of news at Double Verify actually does. Let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to nexty Media. I'm Mike Shields. My guest this week is Jack Marshall. He's the head of news at Double Verify. Hey Jack, thanks for being here.
- [00:59]
A
Hey, Mike, thanks for having me. I was just thinking, it's funny being on this side of the table. I'm used to like sitting next to you asking other people questions for disclosure.
- [01:07]
B
Jack and I worked together at the Journal like almost a decade ago or roughly there. And we've been in the same reporting circles for a long time. But yeah, the times that I am on a panel or being interviewed, I don't like it. Very uncomfortable. So good luck.
- [01:21]
A
I'm getting used to it.
- [01:23]
B
Jack, you have been there for about a year, I think roughly Double Verify. A lot of folks will know you guys as a verification company, brand safety company. Why did, why do they have a head of news? What was this job? Why did you come and what has it turned out to be? That's a lot.
- [01:40]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me dig into it. So, yeah, it was, it was about a year ago, just over a year ago, I joined in the newly created position of head of news. And as part of that, I'm heading up the News Accelerator initiative, which is an initiative across TV broadly to support group greater advertiser investment in news, content and journalism. So yeah, you know, I think you just kind of touched on this. But just sort of on a personal note, you know, I have been on the publisher side for the majority of My career, you know, as an editor and a journalist, I've sort of, you know, chronicled the evolution of digital publishing and, you know, the challenges that publishers have had with business models, you know, particularly obviously news publishers. So, you know, this was sort of an opportunity, you know, DV is obviously very serious about helping to support news publishers and I think critically helping advertisers to sort of benefit from, you know, news audiences, which, as we know, are highly valuable, highly engaged. Yeah. So, yeah, really it was just sort of a good opportunity for me to take, you know, what I'm passionate about personally and, you know, what is top of mind for dv. And it's been a really productive year.
- [02:53]
B
So it's a new role that's always, you know, it's an interesting process because you're shaping it as you go. Right. What was the. I thought maybe when you went there, you were going to be like their content guy. Is that part of it or is it, is it primarily about engaging the different constituencies around news and trying to dispel myths and help brands get more comfortable? Like, what is your day to day like, if there's a commonality to it?
- [03:17]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of all of the above. You know, it's part product. So, you know, making sure, sure that, you know, DV's product innovation, you know, supports greater monetization for news, making sure that it enables advertisers to do what they want to do around news content. But as you said, I think sort of the other pillar is really around that kind of education piece. You know, I think there have been misunderstandings sort of across the industry around, you know, concepts like brand safety and suitability and how that relates to news. So, yeah, you know, I think there's sort of a, an evangelism sort of side to it. You know, I spend a lot of my time talking to publishers, but also a lot of my time talking to advertisers and agencies to make sure that A, sort of, they understand that, you know, they might be missing opportunities for those that are a bit more sort of news averse and B, to make sure that, you know, they are using DVs tools and they're using, you know, suitability tools more broadly in a way that enables them to get the most out of news content. So yeah, it's, it's a bit of everything. You know, I work with pretty much every, every division across the company, but, you know, broadly, it's just that mission of how can DV help support greater advertiser investment in news. And you know, there are opportunities I think kind of across the board. So, you know, it's my job to sort of recognize what those are and sort of help. Help connect the dots.
- [04:43]
B
So I want to ask you about sort of like the state of brand safety and news. Because the thing you would hear a couple years ago, at least it was the, you'd hear the like someone would have a conversation with so and so CMO and they would say, oh my gosh, I want to support news, absolutely, I care about that. And then the stereotypical junior buyer would be just told to keep them out of everything. And using brand safety tools as a blunt instrument of just blocking everything indiscriminately. Is that kind of the dynamic you face? Is that getting better? Like what? Or is it, is there, is it happening different ways, this mis penaltization of news? If that's way to look at it.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, I think a bit of both. You know, I have definitely heard those, those frustrations from publishers. You know, I think there is still a bit of a disconnect between, you know, what you hear CMOs talking about on panels in the south of France and then, you know, what happens at the junior buyer level on a, on a Monday morning. But again, you know, I think that's where, you know, I and DE are helping to sort of educate that hands on keyboards layer and get a bit more tactical and again, sort of help them understand that, you know, they are doing their brand a disservice by failing to kind of capitalize on, on the opportunities that news content presents. But, you know, this, I've spent again the past year sort of having conversations with publishers and advertisers to really sort of figure out, you know, why is news underinvested. And I think it's for a few reasons. But I think, you know, one big reason is just sort of this narrative around the idea of brand safety versus brand suitability. And I think it's easy to just sort of dismiss that as, you know, semantics. But I think the reality is it's a lot more of that. It's a lot more than that. And I think these are very distinct concepts. So, you know, from my perspective and from a DV perspective, you know, safety, brand safety refers to content that doesn't meet, you know, any reasonable brand's expectations. You know, DV has a brand safety floor. So, you know, that's copyright infringement, that spam, that's illicit content, that's malware, you know, that is not news.
- [06:45]
B
So no one is arguing that you should be next to pornography or beheadings or whatever. Like, that's not where we're talking about here in terms of, like, the nuance.
- [06:54]
A
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I think we can all agree, you know, that is unsafe for the majority of brands. You know, some brands may want to play there. That's the prerogative, but that's fine. So I think a big part of it is kind of dispelling this notion that somehow news has got caught up in this safety conversation when really it's about suitability. So, you know, advertisers are always going to have suitability requirements when working with news. I think that's sort of reasonable. You know, auto manufacturers don't necessarily want to appear alongside news content about recalls or automotive accidents. You know, for advertisers in highly regulated industries, you know, there's certain types of content that for legal reasons, they just cannot appear alongside. But, you know, those are. Those are the exceptions. Those are not the rules. So, you know, again, what I'm trying to do is have conversations with advertisers and say, look, you know, you can take a very nuanced approach to news. You know, you can pick out the parts that you deem unsuitable, but that leaves, you know, 90% of news content that should be fair game. So, again, you know, I think the tools have also advanced versus, you know, when this conversation started 10, 15, 20 years ago. And we're at a point today where, you know, you can absolutely use, you know, extremely powerful tools to ensure that you are completely sort of protected from a suitability standpoint and you don't have to use them as a blunt instrument. So I think, you know, often we sort of see the narrative that, you know, it's just keyword blocking. It's just, you know, these simple tools that don't sort of take into account the nuance of content. And that that's not really true, at least from a DB perspective. So, again, you know, a big part of my role is helping clients understand how they can use our tools to the best of our ability that ultimately ends up benefiting them and benefiting their campaigns.
- [08:31]
B
You hear the brand suitability thing come up with news in a couple different ways. There's the I don't want to be next to anything bad, like, I don't want to be next to article about an earthquake or a car accident. And then there's the I got. I just don't want to touch anything. That's political culture war. Scary. Do you. Are either of those like, a bigger case that you have to or objection, you have to battle against. And are there misperceptions about both?
- [08:58]
A
I think there are, I think I hear a lot of overgeneralizations like brands have very different sort of needs and goals, you know, from one to the next, from one campaign to the next. So I think the answer is like, I know it's cliche but like it just depends. Yeah, but again, like, I think there is a bit of a sort of misconception that the tools again are sort of blunter than they are. So it's just about getting like, you know, the right sort of strategies and approaches in place to ensure that you're covered against that stuff while opening up alongside everything else. So yeah, you know, some clients do want to avoid certain issues and you know, they can do that. The vast majority, you know, it's, it's more about how do I open up scale on news, how do I use it to my advantage while protecting against those edge cases.
- [09:48]
B
So you mentioned you, you've done research and about some of the benefits. Is there any, like, I've always, I always wonder is there any real evidence that people, I think people use that excuse. I don't want to be next to anything negative that when people read about, you know, geopolitical tensions and tragedies or wars that they hate the advertising that's next to it or, or it gets, it gets associated with that bad thing. Is that, is that just like a myth?
- [10:17]
A
I think there's some truth to it. I think it's potentially overblown. So in the research we see, you know, some consumers definitely say that they are more sensitive to, you know, ads appearing alongside certain types of content than others. But I think, you know, that's the minority, I think from the data that we see, the vast major would imply that they're able to sort of separate the two. You know, they're there for the news content. So I don't think, you know, potentially there's conflation there as much as, you know, some may suggest across the industry. But again, I think it, it's such a case by case thing because again, to use my automotive example, you know, if the ads are very clearly sort of tied to the content, then it's going to, it's going to vary. So a bit of both that makes sense.
- [11:06]
B
Yeah. And are we, you mentioned television? Are we mostly talking about, you know, digital advertising where you have the programmatic tools to rattle up and down, or is this a, like I always. Are brands just as wary on television and other places?
- [11:20]
A
I think Brands are probably less wary on television than for example, you know, web pages. I think that's partly just down to the format. You know, it's slightly more sort of interrupted and divorced from the content.
- [11:33]
B
Right. So you can't get that screenshot floating around that they don't like in tv.
- [11:38]
A
Yeah, I think there's you know, slightly different consideration where your ads appearing in the middle of a paragraph versus, you know, in a 30 second AD block. That being said, you know, the same concerns still stand. I think there's just sort of nuance between how advertisers think about advertising in different news environments. And again, you know, I think the key there is to just sort of take a nuanced approach and you know, just figure out how to get the best out of each of those channels without just saying we don't want to play there. So again, you know, I think it does depend. Yeah, but you mentioned the research, but you know, I wanted to just come back to like, please. The opportunity side. You know, we have over the past year been investing in a ton of research, digging into our own data, you know, consumer data, marketed data. And I think, you know, the research suggests that advertisers are missing out on, you know, pretty big opportunities by just opting to avoid news entirely. So, you know, we see from our own data that News content generates 16% more engagement than non news content. You know, I think the sort of supply and demand dynamics often mean that there are kind of good deals to be had in news.
- [12:46]
B
Interesting.
- [12:47]
A
Given the fact that some advertisers, it's.
- [12:49]
B
Underused, so the pricing is probably advantageous, but it's also that people are into it like it's that rather that it's not like content, you know, something that you just scroll past or it's, it's, it's something that people are engaged with and that helps.
- [13:02]
A
Exactly. So there's a clear disconnect there between, you know, some of the most engaged content that you can get, you know, Right.
- [13:08]
B
On the web, which everyone says they want.
- [13:09]
A
Right, right, right. So, you know, those are sort of the, the dots that I'm trying to connect and sort of the dichotomies, the circles that I'm trying to square. But yeah, you know, I think again, I think it's just this narrative that kind of persists alongside news. And how do we put some data behind that to your question and just ask the obvious questions like, you know, this is the conventional wisdom. What data are we using to make those decisions? Is it just a fear of Sort of a hypothetical screenshot. Is it an executive's, you know, sort of opinion or are we making the decisions that are ultimately right for our brand?
- [13:44]
B
Right.
- [13:45]
A
So I think, you know, those are the questions that I'm trying to ask. And the good news is that advertisers are receptive. You know, I have had conversations with dozens of advertisers in the past couple of months.
- [13:55]
B
Everybody, you're not banging your head against the wall like people want to talk about this.
- [13:58]
A
People are open to having this conversation. So I think this idea that, you know, advertisers want to avoid news is sort of fundamentally untrue. I think advertisers want to tread carefully. They want to ensure again that their suitability needs are met. But their goal again is how do we access, you know, high, highly effective, high performant media, cost effective media.
- [14:18]
B
Right.
- [14:19]
A
And you know, I'm encouraged by the sort of shift that I've seen in conversations over the past year where I think clients are asking that question first and foremost. Unless, you know, is it news? You know, that being sort of the first question they asked. And it's like, okay, how do we do what's best for our campaigns and best for our brands?
- [14:35]
B
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- [15:42]
A
Yeah, so as I said at the top, you know, that is sort of the, the broad initiative across dv. So we are focused on a few different areas. Again, first and foremost is ensuring that d own products are supporting the needs of advertisers and helping them open up on news content, which obviously then has sort of a downstream benefit for publishers. So, you know, we've been working on a bunch on the product side over the past year or so. I mentioned the keywords piece. You know, I think the impact of keyword blocking specifically on publishers is perhaps overblown as well. You know, we see from our data that, you know, that's more sort of edge cases and you know, we do see those examples of, you know, an advertiser having the word shoot on their keyword list which may be picked up in a URL. So, you know, those cases do happen, but they're relatively few and far between. That said, you know, we want to drive that as close to zero as possible. So we launched a AI driven keyword optimization tool earlier this year as an example. So basically that enables advertisers to sort of auto optimize campaigns, sorry, keyword lists, and remove sort of ambiguous terms, you know, shoot war terms that can be used in different contexts. But then also, you know, another example we hear a lot is sort of place names related to events where, you know, news events take place. So, you know, whether that's a terrorist attack in a city, you know, that word gets added to a keyword list, two years later it's still there. Right.
- [17:13]
B
I don't want to do anything about London and on. It's like, that's kind of crazy.
- [17:17]
A
Exactly, exactly. So that tool is being used by advertisers now and is cutting down keyword lists pretty significantly. So we've seen some great pickup there. And then we're also just thinking constantly about again, I keep coming back to this idea of nuance, but how do we enable advertisers to take as granular approach as possible and really sort of cherry pick the areas that they deem unsuitable while leaving everything else open. So we're thinking a lot about like breaking news, for example. So a lot of conversations I have with advertisers is that, look, we're not worried about news content, we're just worried about, you know, the thing I can't.
- [17:53]
B
Predict exactly what if X happens and all of a sudden I'm next to it or.
- [17:57]
A
Yeah, exactly. Or there's a developing situation and it's very unclear how things are going to pan out. You know, those are the things that make them nervous. And I think at times, you know, they err on the side of caution and say, okay, we'll just, you know, we, we will sort of avoid news more broadly or we'll tread carefully around news where, you know, if we can just help them sort of use that scalpel versus the sledgehammer, we can really help them, you know, sort of open up on news that when it comes.
- [18:24]
B
To like the, this idea, the, the nuance, how important that is in the scalpel approach is have, from a product perspective. Have you found, because I'm thinking about that, you know, that trader, that junior media buyer, they, they may principally want to do the right thing, but if it's hard, this is a business where you need to go fast and scale things like is it, is it? You have to find ways to make it easy to cherry pick because otherwise brands will just say like, you know what, it's just like I, I want to do the right thing, but this is really complicating my execution.
- [18:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, like the, the keyword optimization tool is a good example of that. You know, I don't think anybody wants to spend, you know, a big chunk of their weekly review and keyword lists. Right. So, you know, we're making that easy to do with one click. Another example is, you know, we've been talking about sort of on the avoidance side, but for those advertisers who are looking to open up scale on news, perhaps they are, you know, relatively hesitant around news and just want to dip a toe. We also have contextual categories as well that they can use to sort of activate alongside. So we have News plus and News Plus Light, which are two contextual categories which, you know, with one click within DSPs, they can use to sort of target towards content. So yeah, I think the short answer is yes, it's, you know, how do we make making these decisions and making the decisions that are ultimately right for their brands and their advertising campaigns. How do we make them as easy as possible? Yeah, because again, you know, if you're a 25 year old media bar on a Monday morning, you know, combing through keyword list is probably not top of your list of priorities.
- [19:59]
B
No, it seems like, yeah, but AI really makes this a lot more just scalable, executable, that kind of thing. It's interesting because I had a conversation with somebody recently, like have things swung at all in? You know, there was the brand safety fervor a couple years ago and now ironically, like because of Trump and people kind of screaming about censorship. I've seen, I've heard clients like, I don't even want to mention brand safety. I don't want to be seen as stifling any voices out there. Like, has that helped at all in a weird way, this like, backlash from that to that. To that kind of thinking?
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, I would say I just think generally the pendulum may be sort of swinging back the other direction a little bit. And I think regardless of the reasons, you know, advertisers are looking more closely at what they're doing around news. And I think a lot are sort of arriving at the conclusion that, okay, maybe we have been a little bit too conservative here. You know, we have again used tools a bit more bluntly than perhaps we could. And again, that comes back to the conversations that I'm having with advertisers. You know, they are knocking on our door now and saying, you know, we think we maybe are being too conservative, we think we are missing opportunities. And again, this is great for me, you know, having those conversations is, is getting a lot easier. So, yeah, I think so. You know, I think there's a confluence of factors playing into this, but it's pretty clear that advertisers are, I would say, more amenable to these conversations than perhaps they were, you know, two, three years ago.
- [21:29]
B
How worried are advertisers about disinformation right now? With the preponderance of, I mean, it's been a problem for a while, but the preponderance of AI content, AI slop. Is that something that is, could potentially hold that back or is that a different conversation?
- [21:46]
A
I, I think that's a different conversation. But yeah, you know, this is an area where I think, or I like to think it, with my optimistic hat on that news publishers have an opportunity here. You know, the proliferation of AI slot, you know, the, the rise of sort of AI driven hallucination. Not misinformation, but just, you know, weird mistakes. Yeah, just weird mistakes. You know, I like to think, you know, that will put publishers in, in good stead overall. And you know, I think we're seeing that sort of trickle down to the business, sorry, the, the advertising side of their businesses as well, where, you know, publishers are really thinking about, okay, how do we build sort of more deep and meaningful connections with audiences that are less driven by sort of by drive by traffic and cramming more ads on pages.
- [22:36]
B
The real humanity, the real connections are going to stand out amongst all the weirdness that's going on with AI Exactly.
- [22:42]
A
I hope so. And I think, you know, different publishers are in different positions, but I think those with the strongest brands I would like to think are sort of in good stead Generally speaking, yeah.
- [22:54]
B
What you, you sound very optimistic, which is nice to hear.
- [22:58]
A
Is that uncharacteristic?
- [22:59]
B
Well, no, it just, it just seems like there is a lot of negativity swirling around just the publishing, digital publishing in general that people are worried about. So many different factors between this news, conversation, AI traffic, all that. What's the, if you can, it's hard to sum up. What's the, what's the mood amongst publishers right now? Is everybody, you know, scrounging for diversity of revenue, different models? Are they just leaning into, are there that one to one connection they have with audiences? What's going on?
- [23:30]
A
Yeah, I think so. You know, I think, you know, all of this is happening against this backdrop, obviously of, you know, AI threatening to disrupt traffic, threatening to disrupt, you know, audience conversion funnels on the subscription side, but then also, you know, having large implications for their advertising business as well. You know, how do you identify, you know, AI bots coming and reading content versus a person? How do you create ad experiences that are going to resonate with real people? So I think, you know, there's a lot in flux clearly. But again, I think the reason that I'm more positive is just on the brand side. You know, I think there is more of a realization that, you know, news publishers have extremely valuable audiences for the most part. You know, they are consumers who have come and are choosing to actively engage in many cases they're paying to, to access this content. So that's why, you know, I think I'm optimistic. And again, I think, you know, different publishers have different sort of strengths and weaknesses here. But yeah, broadly I kind of like where I see things trending.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah. And you see things like the New York Times earnings were pretty solid and their advertising revenues growing. There seems to be some, some signs of, of positive momentum in that part in that sector of the industry, you know, and, and you're also seeing this, this real interest in the, call them individual, like the news creator universe. Like, and I wonder if that's probably, you know, even more beneficial to brands because that can, that their connection is so one to one.
- [25:06]
A
I think so. I mean, I think you see, you see publishers leaning into that too, right? Like really sort of putting personalities front and center, whether that's through newsletters or, you know, increasingly video. So one thing I think we will see is like that trickle down into ad products as well. You know, just figuring out how does that sort of direct connection sort of play through to the ad products that people are offering as well. You know, I think if you look at the types of partnerships that brands are striking with influencers is still quite different potentially to the ones that they're striking with news publishers today.
- [25:36]
B
Very.
- [25:37]
A
So I wouldn't be surprised if we, if we see that gap sort of close pretty quickly over the next few years. But again, you know, I, I don't see sort of the need for that suitability piece to, to go away. You know, I think brands are looking for easy ways to kind of scale their campaigns. You know, going to one to one to one to influencers is not necessarily the easiest way to do that. So I think the question is, you know, how do you get the best of both worlds? Which, you know, again, is something we're working closely with clients on.
- [26:07]
B
Well, it's an initiative that's close to my heart and I applaud. I'm glad, I'm glad you're in there in that spot, Jack. But awesome conversation here and thanks for taking time out.
- [26:15]
A
Yeah, thanks so much, Mike. Really appreciate it.
- [26:17]
B
Thanks again to my guest this week, Double Verify is Jack Marshall and my partners at Savio and Elemental tv. If you like this week's episode, please take a moment to rate and leave a review. We have lots more to bring you, so please hit that subscribe button. We'll see you next time for more on what's next in media. Thanks for listening.