← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
8 for ’28 Is Back with Newsom Still on Top and Mark Kelly Added to the List, Plus Alfonso and Jashinsky
01:06:40
“8 for ’28” is back. Mark Halperin debuts his February rankings of the most likely next Democratic presidential nominee, breaking down why Gavin Newsom and Josh Shapiro remain alone at the top of the list and why some major names are still on the outside looking in. He explains what’s driving movement early in the 2028 field, and what to watch for as the jockeying intensifies. Plus, Republican Wisconsin congressional candidate Michael Alfonso joins to discuss winning Donald Trump’s endorsement at just 25 years old, his views on Trump’s policy record, and how younger candidates view future-oriented issues such as China and artificial intelligence. And, Emily Jashinsky weighs in on the Epstein fallout, explaining when controversial associations should become career-ending and how politics and media decide who faces consequences. 120Life: Go to https://120Life.com and use code NEXTUP to save 20% Acre Gold: Start building physical gold with simple monthly payments and enter to win t...
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- [00:00]
Mark Halperin
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Mark Halperin
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Michael Alfonso
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Mark Halperin
Just go to goldbelly.com and for a limited time get 20% off your first order with promo code gift. That's promo code gift. Hey everybody, I'm fired up again about today's show. Had the long weekend off and did a lot of reporting over the weekend for my reported monologue about the Democrats in 2028. You'll get that in a minute. I am Mark Halperin, editor in chief of the live interactive video platform 2way and the host of NextUp. Very happy to have you here and I think you'll be pleased you're giving me about an hour of your time because if you like to know what's next up regarding the Democrats in 2028, it's the February installment of 8 for 28. The top most likely Democrats to be their party's nominee in 2028. Did lots of reporting over the holiday weekend and I think you'll be interested in the results. There's some people going up, some going down and still the same very people at the very top. But you'll see how I thought through this with my sources. And then after, after that, two great guests. Michael Alfonso. He's a young man running for Wisconsin's 7th congressional House district. It's an open seat and it's a Republican district. So the winner of the August primary is almost certainly going to be the next congressperson from the district. There's a couple self funders running and there's no polling, public polling, to say where it's going on. But we do know that Michael has a key asset. He's been endorsed by Donald Trump. He's the youngest Republican congressional candidate candidate in the country. And you'll hear from him in a minute and see why it is that Donald Trump chose to endorse him. It's interesting guy and you'll enjoy that conversation, I hope. And then Emily Jasinsky, my colleague here on the Megyn Kelly Network, will join me. She's the host of the After Party on MK Media. And she and I are going to talk about the Epstein matter. And the question is who gets the professional death penalty for association for Jeffrey Epstein? What's the standard by which someone, the society or whoever says that person associated too much with Epstein? And I'm going to ask Emily what her standard is about that question. But before our guests are here, let's get into the February edition of 8 for 28. And this is the top Democrats likelihood to be the nominee for President in 2028. Talk about my methodology in a second. But let's just look at first for the first time at the results. This is where we were in January one month ago when we last did our reporting. Gavin Newsom, number one, Josh Shapiro, two, Kamala Harris, three, JB Pritzker, four, Buttigieg five, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, six, Ro Khanna seven and Rahm Emanuel eight. And I've said before I said it in January, my top tier, very top, Newsom and Shapiro, I put them head and shoulders above the other, the other six in terms of likelihood. Okay. And that's still true. It's in some ways more true this month than it was last month. But there you see after who I've gotten, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, here's, here's January or February's rankings. You see the change here. Top two remain the same and I suspect they will for a while. Right now, Newsom and Shapiro 1, 2, I flip flopped. Harrison Pritzker 3 and 4, Ocasio Cortez moved up a notch. And, and you'll see when I walk through my reporting, I actually was going to take her off the list, but the field is so weak, the question of who else is strong is so is so out there difficult to say that she actually ironically moves up a notch. And again, I'll explain why, even though she had our horrible moments in Munich at the security conference, Pete Buttigieg, I flip flop him with, with Harris, with Ocasio Cortez. And then Ro Khanna comes off the list. I'll explain why Rahm Emanuel moves up a slide. And then Mark Kelly, who some of my sources have been saying to Add for a while the Arizona senator moves into, onto the list for the first time, number eight. So again, the February rankings. Newsome, Shapiro, Pritzker, Harris, Ocasio, Cortez, Buttigieg, Emmanuel, Kelly. That's the February list. And I'm going to explain to you why in a second. And that's, and that's a lot of movement outside the top two. Everything shifted around a little bit. And again, I'll explain to you why, what my methodology was, what my sources said. So let's get into it now. And again, a reminder of the methodology. This is not something that I make up. What I do is I take the previous month's list and then I figure out where I think based on what I already know, where, where do I think things stand, and I'll shift it around and then I'll share the list with some great Democrats, people who are super knowledgeable, who've worked on past presidential campaigns, who really understand the factors that go into winning a party nomination. And I'll ask them, what do you think of my list? Who should I move up, who should I move down? And it's so fascinating because their views differ. They're very smart people. They arrange, some of them are very liberal, some of them are from the more moderate ring of the party. But it's just so interesting to see what they come back with. And then I have to use my judgment to take all that input. I can't, I can't give everybody their list because they disagree. Now, reminder about this list, first of all, it's early, I know, but not so early because this is all being covered. It's all happening. But this will change over time. And as we see this month, there's some changes. Second, this is about winning the Democratic nomination. Don't besiege me with emails that say, mark, that person could never win a general election. That person couldn't win battleground states. This is not about that, ladies and gentlemen. It's about being the Democratic nominee. Now, some of you are going to be disappointed and say, oh, there's nobody on this list who's any good. Not my fault. I'm just covering the field as it is. So if you're disappointed either in who's on it or who's not on it, send me an email. But recognize that this is by most standards, one of the weaker fields of either party that I've covered in my career. Third, I, I factor in whether I think people are going to run. And there are people on this who aren't on the list, because I don't think they're going to run. If, if you said include everybody, I'd make Michelle Obama number one because if she ran, she'd be the Democratic nominee probably. So you got to factor in that as one issue. Although the question of who's going to run and who's not, something we'll discuss today. This is a snapshot of, of where we are now. I'm not predicting who the nominee is going to be. I'm just telling you, projecting forward who the most likely are. So what did I find overall in my reporting? And again, we'll get into the actual list again in a second. First of all, and again, don't shoot the messenger on this. This is just a reality of my reporting. There's a strong belief in the Democratic Party that the party should not and will not, should not and will not nominate someone for president who's not a heterosexual white man. There just is. And what's interesting to me about that reality is in my discussions with Democrats, who feels about that the most strongly that the Democrats should not and will not nominate anything but a white man for president? Non white men, gay, non white men, women, people of color, they feel as strongly as anyone and women in particular say we should not and will not nominate a woman. Now, that's not dispositive. The nominee might not be a straight white man. It's not dispositive. But you'll notice that the two people I have is easily at the top of the list are straight white men. And where does this come from? It comes from particularly losing to Donald Trump twice by nominating, in one case a white woman and in one case nominating a woman of color. They just feel strongly. So I have to factor that in. And that's, that's not just my sources. That's also amongst grassroots and the donor community. They just, they just feel strongly about it. So you got to factor that in. If you're predicting or analyzing, I should say, not a prediction, if you're analyzing where the field stands, you got to factor in that there's a certain strategic imperative for many in the party. Don't nominate a gay person, a person of color or 1 second factor is the progressive puzzle. I call it who's going to be the, the sand, the Bernie Sanders candidate. Okay. Because Bernie Sanders would have been the nominee, I believe, in 2016 and 2020. You've heard me make this point on two way. You've heard me make it here. Had the Democratic establishment not rigged the system, Bernie Sanders would have been the nominee and the parties shift to the left. It's. It maybe move back a little bit in the wake of Biden presidency, immigration. But for the most part, the party's still dominated by the left the way it has been since 2016. And you got to factor that in. Who's going to be the strong progressive candidate, who's going to inherit the Sanders mantle? And then lastly, national security. And we saw that this weekend in Munich when five or so five or six potential Democratic nominees went to the security conference and some of them bombed. I won't sugarcoat it, they bombed. You look at the people who've been elected president. We've had in the last, since Reagan, okay, we've had two Bushes, Clinton, Obama, Trump, Biden. Okay, two of them, Three of them. Sorry, Two of them had a lot of national security experience. Joe Biden, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, vice President, United states, George W. H.W. bush, ambassador, envoy to China, head of the CIA, vice president. They had, they had traditional foreign policy experience. Clinton, Obama, Bush, other Bush and Trump did not. But they demonstrated in the conduct of winning their party's nomination. And in the general election, they did certain symbolic things, got endorsements, gave foreign policy speeches that reassured people, yeah, this person could be the nominee. Comfortable that this person could be Commander in chief. Comfortable that this person could sit behind the Resolute desk and make life and death national security decisions. Okay, all those three factors. All those three factors. The question of could a woman be nominated, A woman of color be nominated. Second, the, the issue of, of blanking on my second one, I'm like Rick Perry here. The second is, is the question of the progressive wing. And then third, national security. All of those implicated in aoc, okay, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez goes to Munich and she gives this now famous answer about her posture towards the US defending Taiwan. If China threatened Taiwan. Play S3, please.
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Emily Jashinsky
Would and should the US actually commit US troops to defend Taiwan if China were to move? You know, I think that this is such a, you know, I think that this is a.
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Mark Halperin
This is of course.
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Emily Jashinsky
A very longstanding.
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Mark Halperin
Policy of the United States. Now she goes to the security conference making a big show of saying, I'm going to be on the world stage. Her people put out that she had all these foreign policy briefings. I'm sorry, you don't go to a security conference and, and not be able to answer a question that's fundamental to American foreign policy regardless of your orientation towards national security or America's role in the world. Right? Now some people expressed to me surprised that AOC gave such a bad answer. I'm a student of her taking foreign policy questions. She doesn't get asked them a lot. Here's an earlier time. This is from a PBS interview in 2018. So this is, this is eight years ago. And, and I'm a student of this. Listen to how she answered a toughish, not really foreign policy question eight years ago. S18, please.
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Emily Jashinsky
What people are starting to see, at least in the occupation of Palestine is just an increasing crisis of humanitarian condition. Do you think you can expand on that? Yeah, I mean, I think I'd also just. I am not the expert on geopolitics on this issue.
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Michael Alfonso
You know, for me, I'm a firm.
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Emily Jashinsky
Believer in finding a two state solution.
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Michael Alfonso
In this issue issue.
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Mark Halperin
Again, word salad. She went on in a way that just made people say, well, she can't really answer these questions. This is, this is a, a moment that I've said. I think if she wants to run for president, she's going to have to do a lot of repair work, lot of repair work. And so she did some of that. She called the New York Times Monday night after a lot of coverage. The not just in conservative circles, but some liberals as well on social media, some people privately private conversations in the Democratic Party said, whoa, that's an unprepared person. She called the New York Times and here's the headline from the New York Times story. A three exclusive interview says after first big overseas trip, Ocasio Cortez expresses frustration, called the New York Times. Here's a quote from the story. This reporter came up to me and was like, quote, is Munich the new New Hampshire? And I cannot say enough how out of touch and missing the point genuinely that is. Ocasio Corsair said in an interview, referring to the state's tradition of hosting early presidential primary contests. Global democracies are on fire the world over and established parties are falling to right wing populist movements. So that's the point she wanted to make at the conference. It seems that, that if, if there's not more income equality, that they're going to be a more right wing populist government. So she thinks that's a bad thing. It's an interesting intellectual point, but, but here's another interesting, excellent intellectual point. If you go to a conference like this when there's chatter about you running for president, you're going to be judged through the prism of whether you're ready to be president. And her surprise at that and annoyance I get it on a human level, but it demonstrates, and this is why I've been skeptical of her candidacy all along. It demonstrates not just a lack of depth on foreign policy, but it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what it takes to be president. Okay, ain't easy to run for president. It's super hard. And one thing is, you're not going to be judged on your five point plans. You're just not. And if your five point plan is kind of out there, if it's kind of a new concept that a lot of reporters, even if they like Democrats, are not going to be used to, then you have to understand the way that things work. There's a difference in life and in presidential politics between what is and what ought to be. And if she thinks she can run for president and determine what reporters cover as opposed to what they want to cover, reporters are going to want to cover the political, the superficial, the personality, the gaffes. That's just the nature of the beast. Now, is there a way to get the press to focus on substance, including complicated substance? There is, but it involves a very, very big set of skills that few have. And she didn't demonstrate them both in Munich and then in her follow up with the New York Times. So after all that, I. I said to my sources, I want to take her off the list or move her way down to the bottom. And they all said no to a person. They said, you got to keep her on the list. And some of them think she should be number two, behind, behind Newsom. But they all said, move her high. She's going to be able to raise money. She's got the progressive lane. She's got the ability to get a lot of attention and get big crowds. So I didn't take her off the list. But I've continued to be a skeptic that she will run. I continue to be a skeptic that she can pass the hurdles that I laid out before that she's going to have to face another person I tried to put on the list who also was in Munich was Gina Raimondo. Gina Raimondo was the governor of Rhode Island. She was Commerce Secretary for Joe Biden. She's a favorite of the Democratic establishment. If you ask people like Jamie Dimon and the Business Roundtable and a lot of the donors just snap your fingers and make someone our nominee and our president, they'd pick her. And so I put her low on the list, but on the list because she went to Munich, she said previously she's thinking of running and everybody literally every one of my sources said take her off the list. She's too boring. She's too disliked by labor unions. She's not a good politician. So you'll see. You saw Gina Raimondo is not on the list. Tried to put her on, wouldn't let me. Andy Beshear not on the list. Often talked about some of my sources. My sources are split here Governor of Kentucky some say absolutely she belongs on the list. He belongs on the list. He's. He's should be high on the list. Some of them said move him up high top five Other people agree with me and my judgment right now is he just does not have what it takes. Does has not gone through the scrutiny said it before has not played at the major league level. So that's going to be one of the controversial things here. I took Ro Khanna off the list. A little counterintuitive. He's so in the news now particularly on Epstein. But I believe the mistake he made this past week naming a couple people listed in the Epstein files as co conspirators when it turned out they were completely innocent. They were in the files in a law enforcement lineup. I believe that that not just reflects on his is risky use of the Epstein files to raise his profile. But I talked to people amongst my sources who who were unsettled by it. He's a very smart guy but they said the judgment shown there really gave them doubts about about whether he can do what he needs to do to be part of this. Now he may. He may take that AOC Lane, he's a Sanders supporter. Maybe he'll be the progressive candidate but for now he's off the list. Wes Moore Governor, Maryland not on the list. I've not been high on putting him on the list either. Why is he still off my list? Well here's what he said to Norah o' Donnell when he was asked at a town hall last weekend what are the chances you're going to run for president? He's previously said he's not going to run. Here is being again asked are you going to run? S seven please.
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Emily Jashinsky
But would you ever consider running for President?
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Mark Halperin
No, I, I'm excited about my job and there was.
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Emily Jashinsky
So you're saying you're never going to run for president?
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Mark Halperin
Yeah. So like when they started talking about that I said that there was nothing that anyone could say to me to make me do it.
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Emily Jashinsky
But you're not saying that you won't ever run.
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Mark Halperin
I don't see a reason. I love My job. All right, now, the last answer is a little bit of a hedge, but in normal English language usage, are you running for president? No, that's it. Now, with all due respect to Nora o', Donnell, who was asking the questions, and to Governor Moore, that doesn't mean he won't run. Okay. I've learned a long time ago that people in the media, people in politics, are not very good necessarily at determining whether someone has ruled themselves out for running. And even if they do, quote, unquote, rule themselves out, it is meaningless. I give you, for instance, my two favorite examples of people saying they would not run for president. Here's Bill Clinton in 1990 in a debate as he was running for reelection of Governor of Arkansas. S1, please. Intended to run. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to serve four years. I made that decision when I decided to run. If you listen to all these political columnists, they'll tell you that no one much outside of Arkansas believes that I could do anything else. When I decided to run for governor, I decided to serve for four years as governor. I do think it's sort of sad that Sheffield Nelson, who said in 1985 he thought I'd make a good president, now thinks it's a bad thing when anybody from Arkansas that he's running against is considered. But I'm not being considered. I'm being considered as a candidate for government. That's a job I want. That's a job I'll do for the next four years. All right. Then of course, you know, literally a year later, he's running for president. He said he drove around Arkansas and people told him he should run for president. He changed his mind. That is. That is one, one of my two favorites. Here's my other favorite. This is even more definitive. This is Barack Obama after being elected to the Senate in 2004 with Tim Russert in 2006. Tim Russert pinning him down. Will you run for President in 2008? S five, please. I will serve out my full six year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed. But. So you will not run for president or vice president in 2008? I will not. I will not. Not. I don't intend to not. I might not or I'm not planning to. I will not. And yet, of course, he did run for president. Same thing people told me I needed to. So I don't take These statements, seemingly Sherman, as statements. Somebody's not going to run to me in a darn thing. But I still don't think Westmore is going to run. And if he does, I still don't think he's that, that formidable a candidate. So let's see if West Moore does run. George Clooney wants him to run, but I don't. I don't know that he will. Okay, so that's, that's the people who aren't on the list. Let's go back to look at the list of people who are on the list for February. Gavin Newsom, number one, he went to Munich. I will say some people continue in the Democratic Party, continue to wonder about his criticism of Donald Trump on foreign soil. He did it at Davos. He's now done it again in, in Munich. It's rubbing some people the wrong way. You want to be commander in chief? Can't do it historically, but at the same time, he's become the resistance candidate. He's become the guy who wants to criticize Donald Trump. So he goes to Munich and he hits Donald Trump hard and says things about an American president on foreign soil previously inconceivable. Here's Gavin Newsom in Munich saying President Trump is in retreat. This is S6, please. Donald Trump's in retreat. He is historically unpopular in the U.S. they're in a reset because economic conditions. He's underwater in every key category, including his number one issue, which was immigration. And he's shown to be weak when people stand up to Trump. When you fight back, fight fire with fire, he backs down. This is happening within the United States and it's obviously happening in real time around the globe. And I think people are figuring that out. At the same time, he continues to dominate the field as an aircraft carrier with an aggressive staff and a book tour that's coming out that has lots of key state stops on it. I think you're going to see a comparison of Newsom's book launch from some of the others we've seen that will demonstrate again that if he does run, he is the front runner for the nomination. Number two, Josh Shapiro. I've said before, I thought his book tour was not that successful. The book has sold better than I thought it would. But in terms of establishing his brand of becoming better known, of helping him in the poll, national polls, which matter now for donors and momentum and with the media, I don't think it was very effective. He is, though, continuing to go out and he's, you know, Newsom is Kind of the, the resistance candidate Shapiro continues to be, I think two things in terms of his brand. One is he's the, he's the get stuff done candidate and, and, and, and, and bring the country together candidate who, people, who people find likable. Okay, here he is on a podcast called Track Star Singing an American classic. S11 please. This land is your land and this land is my land. From California to New York island From the redwood forest to the G stream waters this land was made for you and me. By the way, I'm sure I sound way better with that in my ear and singing than I actually do on the show, but that, that's the American story. It is our land and it is our country. He continues to be a very popular governor from Battleground State. You can see there, maybe it's not your cup of tea, but he's, he's a confident performer, not just singer and he, he has a capacity to raise a lot of money and to be the primary alternative for the establishment lane against Newsom. So again, what I haven't seen from him and my sources agreed, he hasn't shown a different gear. Newsom showed a different gear. In the last six months. Shapiro was at a very high level, very well liked by the Obamas, very well liked by the Clintons, very appreciated by a lot of members of Congress, Nancy Pelosi, other veteran Democrats. But he's not shown in other gear and there's time to do that obviously. But that's why he's not number one. That's why he's behind. Go down the list now. Pritzker and Harris, I flipped them. I continue to hear from my sources that Pritzker's ability as a billionaire to self fund means he needs to be high on the list. But I'll say again, I could, I could, I could take the list of three through eight and I could, I could jumble them up because my sources disagree about who should be where. This is the consensus and none of them are nearly as strong. They've all got flaws and Pritzker has a lot of flaws in terms of his Illinois record, etc. But the fact that he's a self funder, the fact that he seems determined to run, the fact that he's popular with unions make him number three. I flipped him with Kamala Harris from last month. I could have left them the way they were. The reason I moved her down is she's put out some public statements lately. She's talked to some people privately who I talked to. They just remain skeptical that the party will turn to her. And again, she's just like aoc, a woman of color. Just talked to a lot of people who said the party is not going to be inclined in that direction because of Clinton and Harris herself and, and they don't want to take the risk. Next aoc. Again, I would have moved her off the list based on Munich, but every one of my sources, with two exceptions, and again, I talked to more than two dozen people about this. Everyone said she can raise the money, she can get the attention, she can fill the Sanders lane. And so again, after having, and this is the irony of, of it and the weakness of the field, after having one of the worst weeks of her professional career seen through the prism of presidential she moves up a notch from January. Amazing. Buttigieg moved down people. He's out there doing a lot of stuff. And the reason my sources were down on him and had to move down a notch is he's had a lot of opportunities to step up. He's, he does a lot of podcasts. He doesn't have a job right now that, you know, that ties him up. People are just thinking, you know, again, still early, but why isn't he moving up, not moving up in the polls, not demonstrating the black support that he's, that he so lacked. So I moved him down. Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel. I've got sources who say he doesn't belong on the list. But most of my sources, I got to be honest, even the ones on the left are people who are veterans. These are not 20 year olds. These are people who are older. And they all, almost all of them know rom personally. They see all the flaws he has. But what they say is he's got energy, he's going to raise a lot of money. He'll have, if not the endorsement, help from support from the Clintons and the Obamas, at least Barack Obama. And he'll get on the debate stage, that he'll be able to have a super PAC with his brother and, and big financial supporters get on the debate stage and then they think he'll do very well in the debate stage. And he continues to follow the Clinton92 playbook, a campaign he worked on, continue to put out policy proposals, age limit for running for office, ban on social media, various education proposals. And so I think you'll, I think, I think despite all the reservations many of my sources have about him, they say until something goes wrong, he's going to be on the list because in a weak field, this is a guy who's got skills. A guy who knows former ambassador to Japan, former congressman, congressional leader of the DCCC campaign committee, and a former White House chief of staff. Lastly, Mark Kelly, first time on the list. And I've been skeptical that he'll run. There's some personal issues that people talk about. There's the lack of passion. But being when the White House went after him, the Pentagon went after him for that video he made about not obeying illegal orders really seemed to help him raise money, build his profile, maybe even build his confidence. Here he is in an interview with the BBC, making it clear that a presidential campaign is, is something he's thinking about and listen to him sell his resume. This is S19, please. You know, I'll seriously consider this because we are in some seriously challenging times right now. I don't know if I would be the best person, you know, in this job. I am a lot different than most of these other, you know, hundred senators there are. I'm one of the very few engineers. I'm the only person with a graduate degree in engineering in the United States Senate. I've got combat experience. That's kind of rare. I spent 25 years in the military. I didn't start out in some state legislature somewhere. I don't think of myself as a politician. I never thought I'd find myself here. So I've, I will obviously think about this. It's a serious decision. I just haven't made it yet. Hasn't made it yet. But that puts him on the list for me. We'll see if he continues to move forward. Do the things you need to do, Hire staff, think about how to raise money in a big dollar super pack, travel to the early states. But he seems to have gotten the bug. He seems to have gotten the bug. And, and as we talked about last episode, I think, or last week, a lot of these people who have things in their personal history that might on some level be disqualifying, they think, why are all these people asking me to run? How am I raising all this money? If there's some barrier to my being the candidate, I wouldn't be doing as well as I'm doing. And that lulls them into a sense that, well, they can do it and somehow, like Bill Clinton, like Donald Trump, they'll overcome any accusations or issues that come up. Could be true. He's, he's a skilled guy. And almost all my sources said after, after the month he's had raising money and being on the media put him on the list. So that's a February edition again. Most likely Democratic nominees 2028 Newsom, Shapiro, Pritzker, Harris AOC, Buttigieg, Emanuel and making his debut on 8 for 28, Senator Kelly of Arizona. Love to know what you think of all this. Love to know who's on the list, who shouldn't be, who you know. Does anybody think that Gina Raimondo should be on the list? Not my sources, but you Boards moving around well underway. But I don't have all the answers and neither do my sources. So let me know what you think. Send me an email. Tell me who should be on and off the list, who should move up and who should move down. Send it to nextup halpernmail.com and don't be a stranger. Be part of the Nexter community. Subscribe to NextUp on YouTube if you'd like to watch the show there. You'll get all our full episodes and bonus content and everything as soon as it posts@YouTube.com nextupalperin. And if you like listening to us as a podcast, go to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please, while you're out there scouting potential presidential candidates in the early states or wherever you live, please like subscribe and share and make sure you got your downloads turned on so you get every episode as soon as it is available. Thank you for being an extra. All right, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, a young, young congressional candidate in Wisconsin who happens to have won Donald Trump's endorsement. Michael Alfonso is next up. So here's the truth. Half of all adults have high blood pressure, and most people don't feel it until it becomes a real problem. February is American Heart Month, and if you've fallen off a few New Year's resolutions, that's okay. This is a simple, measurable way to get back on track and do something meaningful for your heart. Listeners here. Get 20% off their entire order@120life.com Just use the code Next up, one simple code. A perfect time to refocus or help someone you care about take their heart health seriously. Go to 120life.com use the code NextUp for 20% off. Try it risk free for two weeks. If your blood pressure doesn't improve, you get your money back. Nothing to lose but higher blood pressure numbers. Use code NextUp today. 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Sign up today@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com. All right, joining me now, and next up is Michael Alfonso. He's a candidate for Congress in an open seat. It's Wisconsin's 7th congressional district. It's a crowded primary, but a lot of smart money is on Michael because for one thing, he's got the endorsement of Donald J. Trump and a bunch of other leading Republican figures. He's also from family of political royalty. We'll talk about that. And he's an American firster. And also lastly, the youngest significant Republican congressional candidate in America. Michael, welcome in. Thank you for being here.
- [35:02]
Michael Alfonso
No, thank you for having me. It's great to be on your show.
- [35:06]
Mark Halperin
It's a matter of public record. Tell folks how old you are.
- [35:09]
Michael Alfonso
I am 25. I'm right on the number the founding fathers thought would be perfect for Congress. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were 26 when they were first elected. So I'm just a little bit younger than them.
- [35:21]
Mark Halperin
Okay, so you've never run for office before. Amongst other things in your young career, you were Dan Bongino's podcast producer. This is your first try for federal office. Explain to folks how you got President Trump's endorsement.
- [35:35]
Michael Alfonso
Yeah, well, you know, we, we. It was a long process. You know, we met with him a few different times, but it culminated in an interview and I sat across from him and, you know, he had a chance to endorse any of the candidates in this race. Like you mentioned, it was a very crowded primary and, you know, I promised him that I would always be America first, I would always fight for his agenda and that nobody would ever outwork me. Because if at 25, I can't be the hardest working one in any race, there's a big problem.
- [36:04]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, so you met, you met, you met with the President personally a couple of times, yeah.
- [36:09]
Michael Alfonso
Yes.
- [36:10]
Mark Halperin
Tell us, tell us about that. First of all, how long have you known the President?
- [36:13]
Michael Alfonso
So I first met him when he came to my wedding when I was 22. We had it at his Trump golf course and he stopped by and gave a speech and I got to meet him. It was quite the experience. But you know, the, when the first meeting I sat with him, I couldn't tell you what happened. It was the first time I was in the Oval Office. I was so nervous. I mean, I'm a kid from northern Wisconsin. Our biggest town here has 40,000 people in it. And I'm in the Oval Office with the President of the United States. I was shaking like a leaf the whole time.
- [36:49]
Mark Halperin
And what kind of the meeting, the climactic meeting where he agreed to endorse you? What kind of questions did he ask you?
- [36:56]
Michael Alfonso
You know, he, he asked a lot about my family. He wanted to know where I came from, what brought me to this moment and why I thought I would be the best one in the race. And you know, he also asked why, why are you going to be the one politician here that isn't gonna flip flop on me? Why are you the one that's gonna actually get some of my executive orders into, into law? And you know, I, I told him I grew up, I was, got interested in politics at 16 when President Trump stood on a stage and told a room full of donors that we were lied into the war in Iraq. And I knew at that moment this was something special. I mean, seriously, up until that moment, I thought that, you know, America couldn't be won back. And President Trump gave me faith in that moment and I told him about that moment. And that's why I will always have faith in the President and always be one of his biggest supporters.
- [37:51]
Mark Halperin
I know you're inspired to be in public service, at least in part, by Charlie Kirk. Did you know him personally and explain the role he played in your life?
- [38:00]
Michael Alfonso
Yeah, you know, it's, it's a weird situation. I've met him a few times. I bet he wouldn't have known me if you asked, but you know, just like any other Gen Z man, I mean, we grew up with him on our phones, on our TV screens. He really felt like family. And when I saw him get shot on X, I mean, it was a horrible thing. I wish I never saw it, but I knew in that moment I have to do something. I don't know what it is. I don't know when it's going to be, but I will do something.
- [38:29]
Mark Halperin
So you're one of three or four major candidates for this open seat. The current incumbent, Republican Congressman Tiffany's running for governor. And it's a very red district. I think President Trump won it by like 20 points. So the winner of the primary in August is. And there's no runoff in Wisconsin. So the winner of the primary is going to be the next member of Congress. Some of the other folks running are pretty wealthy. Right. They're spending some of their own money in this race. You've got President Trump's endorsement. Does that guarantee you you'll be the nominee, or these other folks with more money might be able to beat you?
- [39:01]
Michael Alfonso
You know, I like to say that anything can happen in politics or an election. I mean, everyone thought Hillary Clinton was going to wipe the floor with Donald Trump, and we know how that went. So, you know, in the end, this district, it's a very rural district. The average voting age is 60 and up. These are people who really want to meet their candidates. They want to shake your hand, they want to look you in the eye and know that you're a genuine person. So the winner of this race, the Trump endorsement, means the world to me. I mean, having the support of the greatest fighter in my lifetime for America couldn't mean more to me. But when it comes to the election, the one who wins is going to be the one who works the hardest, and that I have on lock.
- [39:43]
Mark Halperin
So I said, you got the President's endorsement. In Republican politics, that's typically dispositive. Not very many people have gotten Donald Trump's endorsement and not been the nominee. Tom Emmer, the House Whip, has endorsed you, a bunch of other people. You've also been endorsed by the Secretary of Transportation who used to represent the district. Secretary Duffy, used to be Congressman Duffy. Explain how you got that one.
- [40:04]
Michael Alfonso
Well, that endorsement came a lot earlier. That came in 2021, when I asked for his daughter's hand in marriage. So I had known him for quite a long time, and, you know, I, I still remember it to this day. I had bought a ring. I was nervous about it the whole day. I knew I was going to ask him later at night. And I was waiting for him to be alone, and I went to him and I said, you know, I, I want to marry your daughter. And that's when I got his endorsement.
- [40:32]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. So your in laws are Congressman Duffy and his wife, who's a very prominent journalist and host on FOX and are. That's a, That's a big advantage. Right. Because they're. I'd say they're amongst the most famous political people now, media people now from Wisconsin. So explain what role they're playing in helping you try to win this race.
- [40:50]
Michael Alfonso
Well, that's a simple one. I'm a math major from the University of Wisconsin who work construction for six years. I've never been in front of a camera in. In my entire life. So with the help of my wife and, you know, a lot of people who have been there before, they can coach you through this. They can help you learn how to get better every single day. And that's really the major role that they play, is just support, like any good family would, helping you. You know, some of the debrief sessions after my first couple of hits were a little harder to listen to. But, you know, it's really amazing to have people that have been there, people that understand how it works, to really coach you and guide you through it.
- [41:30]
Mark Halperin
All right, let's talk about some policy stuff. President Trump was present during COVID What letter grade would you give him for how he did overall handling the pandemic?
- [41:40]
Michael Alfonso
You know, I think President Trump actually did a really good job. You know, you look at the time when he was dealing with it, you know, there was a lot of uncertainty. Even the best of us made some mistakes in that time. I mean, you know, I've. I wore a mask sometimes. I'm ashamed to say it, but I did. And this level of propaganda and fear that was given to us, it's the same propaganda and fear that was given to Mister. Mr. Trump. And he fought through it. He was always on the front lines fighting for people, fighting for the businesses to stay open. And, you know, in the end, I think President Trump really does get an A on that.
- [42:18]
Mark Halperin
Okay, let me ask you about foreign policy question. I'm going to skip around on issues. You're ready. You're ready to win a House race. So here we go. This is a version of the question that someone who would be your colleague if you won, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was asked, what should the United States policy be regarding expressions of certainty that if China attacked Taiwan, the United States would help defend Taiwan. What should our policy be on that?
- [42:45]
Michael Alfonso
You know, it's simple. We're America first. When President Trump first got into office in 2016, we're bringing America back. We're no longer gonna be on the back burner. Just say having a strong, strong words, but no stick. I think if China gets itself involved in Taiwan, we absolutely need to respond because it's not about Taiwan. I know they have a lot of chips and chip production and we're working really hard to get that over here in the United States. But it's about proving a point. America is the shining city on the hill. We set the tone for every other country. And that's why I think it's so important for us to be involved in every major event.
- [43:30]
Mark Halperin
So if, if, if the president, what you would advise a president states to say to China is if you take, try to take Taiwan, the United States will defend, help defend Taiwan. That should be the stated policy. Yeah.
- [43:43]
Michael Alfonso
You know, I think China has been antagonistic towards the United States for a very long time. I would say that they're one of the only adversarial nations that is constantly trying to thwart us. I mean, you know, here in Wisconsin, they're buying up our farmland. President Biden didn't care about that at all. And now President Trump, thankfully, is taking steps to prevent that from happening. But, you know, when China is going to make a move like that, it's not even about them saying, yeah, I think we can beat the United States. They're saying, no, I don't think America will respond to it. And I, I think we absolutely will respond to it.
- [44:24]
Mark Halperin
How do you explain this? The president has done some things that are tough on China, tariffs, as you said, some things about farmland. But he's having summits with the Chinese leader, with Premier Xi, leader of the Communist Party. He calls him his friend. He talks in a friendly way about him. How do you, how do you reconcile those two points of view? Being tough on some things, but also being very friendly with the guy.
- [44:50]
Michael Alfonso
Anyone that's met President Trump knows he's the dealmaker in chief. He doesn't want war. I'm actually massively against wars and conflicts. I don't want to see it. I think is, it's an absolute last response. But President Trump is, he's being friendly, friendly with the leader, but he's establishing very clear red lines. You do not cross this line. We are the United States of America. We don't joke around and we mean business, especially under this president.
- [45:19]
Mark Halperin
How do you use AI in your professional life now?
- [45:22]
Michael Alfonso
Oh, I use it so much. I mean, every, every day it seems to be getting better and better and it's actually a little scary. So right now I'm a part time accountant and I wonder if it could replace me almost. You know, it's something that I think is on the horizon that a lot of you know, some of our best older legislators don't really see the dangers of it. And I think this is one of the areas we're having young people who really understand this technology and understand what it could mean for the future, why it's so important to have them involved in the decision making process. Because even right now there's discussions on whether the state should regulate it, whether the federal government should regulate it. We need people who have used these things, have really been almost formed by it, to make these decisions.
- [46:09]
Mark Halperin
What are the dangers if policymakers at the state and federal level miscalculate? What are the dangers of underregulating AI as you see it?
- [46:18]
Michael Alfonso
Well, honestly, I mean, it's one of those where the dangers could be anything. I mean, it could go as far as the entire world is destroyed, you know, if we, we give over all decision making power to AI, which I don't see happening in the near future. Still. Still not quite up to snuff in math departments and coding departments. But it's getting there. And I think, you know, there is no, no bound to how bad this could be. But even on a smaller scale, you know what happens when students in high school or middle school, as they are right now, realize that they don't need to learn how to write because AI will just do it for them. And it starts creating a situation where if we don't pay attention to this, we're going to have an entire generation of students that doesn't know how to write, doesn't know how to do math, and doesn't know their history because they'll just believe whatever comes out of the AI.
- [47:11]
Mark Halperin
So those are two pretty big things. Our kids not knowing how to write and the entire planet being destroyed. So does that mean you're inclined towards either federal or state regulation of, of this industry now?
- [47:23]
Michael Alfonso
You know, I think it's very targeted, so we need to be very careful with federal regulations. I think state regulations are generally a better way to go. But with something as dangerous as AI, I do think it kind of falls to the federal government to make these rules and regulations. Now, we don't want to fall behind China. That's one of the big fears with regulations. But we also don't want to have our entire way of life completely uprooted. And I think it's important to be very specific and very deliberate with how we regulate this and when we do it.
- [48:01]
Mark Halperin
You know, there's been very little polling, I don't think any public polling in your race, and the debates haven't started. Yet. Right. You haven't, you haven't really engaged with the other, other candidates. So what do you expect the other candidates to say about you in the context of a race where you have the president's endorsement, which again, within the Republican Party, within a primary is pretty strong. So do you expect they'll say you're too young or inexperienced? What do you, what are you expecting to have to defend within the context of these other folks with a lot of money to run ads against you? What do you expect them to say?
- [48:31]
Michael Alfonso
Yeah, you know, the favorite attack line is exactly what you mentioned. He's too young to run for office. I love when they attack me for that because I actually think it's my greatest asset. At the age of 25, I don't get tired. I always have energy. And this is a big district. It's actually the biggest district east of the Mississippi in the, in the country. And we need, they, the people in this district want to see their representative as much as possible. So who's going to have the energy to go to every single county, no matter how big, how small? That's me. And when it comes to experience, you know, I've heard it, this isn't a first time job. We, we need someone who's ready on day one. It seems to me like they almost don't appreciate the fact that if you don't wear a white collar going to work, you don't, you somehow don't have experience. I've worked in construction for six years. I've been an accountant. I've worked for Dan Bongino as his producer. Experience isn't a problem. But I would also tell you what has experience ever gotten us in Congress? Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer. I mean, we get riots in Minneapolis and our hometown of Kenosha in southern Wisconsin. I mean, the argument of experience, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.
- [49:48]
Mark Halperin
What are the, what are the big towns and cities in the 7th congressional district of Wisconsin?
- [49:53]
Michael Alfonso
The two biggest are Wausau, Wisconsin, which is where I spent a lot of time growing up, in Hudson, which is right across from Minneapolis.
- [50:00]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And as a Democrat ever represented the district.
- [50:03]
Michael Alfonso
Yes. The last Democrat to represent the district was in, he won the election in 2008. His name was Dave Obie. He held the seat for 40 years. And we like to call him the king of the earmarks here because that's how he used to win his races. He would give special gifts to all of his biggest supporters. And it also Happened that he was the chair of the House Appropriations Committee, which anyone that knows something about that has a little bit of power in deciding where the spending is allocated.
- [50:35]
Mark Halperin
He was a relatively moderate Democrat, but as you said, he just was a fixture of the, of the area. And, and I was in the district with him once and people, everybody knew him, everybody appreciated the power that he had for, for the seventh district. All right, let's do a little rapid round stuff. Who's your favorite Trump cabinet member besides the Secretary of Transportation, and why?
- [50:54]
Michael Alfonso
Oh, I have to go with Marco Rubio. I mean, the memes online, it's hilarious. So I'm also of Cuban descent, so that's a little extra caveat on top. He understands how dangerous communism is and he sees the young people starting to trend a little dangerously to communism. But yeah, really, the memes, I mean, I've seen so many, so many jokes online. Every time a major head coach from a football team gets fired, there's. Marco Rubio is apparently interviewing for the open position.
- [51:24]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Okay. If you could only use one social media app and couldn't use any of the others, which one would it be and why?
- [51:31]
Michael Alfonso
I wouldn't use any of them. I actually didn't have any social media presence really until I started running. I think social media is something that wastes your time and rots your brain. I think we should actually be fighting to have less usage of social media. And I don't mean regulations, of course, but just privately. We should all be trying to spend less time on the Internet and more time with our friends, families and neighbors.
- [51:55]
Mark Halperin
You're having your first child coming up in a couple months right before the primary in August. Do you know the gender of your baby?
- [52:03]
Michael Alfonso
Yes, it's going to be a little girl. Little girl, although we haven't asked it. So in today's day and age, who knows, right?
- [52:10]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, she could come out with her own point of view on that. What's, what's the, the main thing you've learned from, from others either by watching or asking for advice. What's the main thing you've learned about how to be a good parent?
- [52:20]
Michael Alfonso
You know, the trick is to always be patient and always be loving. You know, that's where being a Christian, I've heard the rules on how to be a good parent, how to be a good husband, how to be a good neighbor my whole life. And I'm very nervous about being a first time father. I was the baby of my family, the youngest, my wife is the oldest of nine, so she's not nervous at all. But you know, I, I'm very excited, but nervous as any first time father will be, I would imagine.
- [52:46]
Mark Halperin
Okay, who's the greatest athlete in the history of Wisconsin sports?
- [52:51]
Michael Alfonso
The greatest athlete? You know, I'm a hockey fan, so I would have to say Joe Pavelski. I, he just made it into the American Hockey hall of Fame. He actually played for Stevens Point, a team I used to play against all the time, but also, also throw a shout out to another guy. He's newer. I actually played with him a little bit. His name's Cole Caufield. He's on the Montreal Canadiens.
- [53:16]
Mark Halperin
You played college hockey?
- [53:18]
Michael Alfonso
No, I played juniors for a year, which is like the intermediate between high school and college. And I got half a fake tooth to show from that.
- [53:25]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, that's awesome. All right, last I'm going to sneak in one more question. If you win, will you pledge to self term limit? We don't have term limits for member of the House, but will you pledge to serve a limited number of terms?
- [53:37]
Michael Alfonso
You know, I don't know if I would self limit. I think term limits are extremely important and we should get legislation in law to make sure that we have term limits. But if we start self imposing term limits, it seems like only the good members of Congress will be leaving. So it's something I definitely will evaluate come to term two or term three. But it's not something I can pledge to.
- [54:05]
Mark Halperin
Michael Alfonso is running for the 7th congressional district in Wisconsin. It's an open house race. The primary will determine who wins the seat. It's a very Trump district and he's got the endorsement of President Trump. And Michael, you might in 2026 become both first time dad and a first time member of Congress. And you got, you got 50% going for you. So best of luck to you and please keep us posted on the race. We look forward to the debates and to see how all those self funders decide they want to try to define you. That'll be an interesting part of the race, no doubt. But grateful to you for making time, Michael, and best of luck to you.
- [54:39]
Michael Alfonso
Thank you so much for having me.
- [54:41]
Mark Halperin
All right, next up, we're going to talk about everything going on in the news with my colleague here at the Megyn Kelly Network. Emily Jashinsky is next up. Let me ask you a question. Do you own physical gold? Most people do not. And given the current state of the world, that's worth thinking about. Acre Gold makes it simple. You pick a plan that fits your budget, make monthly payments and when you've accumulated enough, they ship you a beautifully designed 24 karat Swiss gold bar. Gold is up 70% year over year and central banks are still buying it at record levels. Smart money has been moving into hard assets for a reason. This is legitimate. They've had subscribers stacking up consistently for six years because once you hold it in your hand, you understand the difference between owning something real versus a number on a screen. Right now they're giving away two five gram ancient collection gold bars. Enter for free and subscribe to Gold@getacregold.com Mark Again go to getacregold.com Mark Cash now, more later From Opendoor gives you cash up front for your home plus all the profit later. That's no chaos now. No cash left behind later. Skip the showings now. Pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now. This is so awesome. Later or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash now, more later. Now available nationwide. Start your offer@opendoor.com radio profits calculated after fees and costs. Eligibility and offer price may vary. TaxAct knows every small business owner has different tax filing needs. With TaxAct, you can file yourself with the help of an expert or taxact can do it all for you. You're the boss, the head honcho, the top banana. And Taxact is like your loyal, trusty tax aide, ready to pounce on any tax needs you might have. Tax act is dying to pounce on some small business tax needs. Taxact. Let's get them over with. All right, welcome back. Next up and joining me now, I'm Lee Jersinski, host of the After Party with Emily Jashinsky. It airs on MK Media Mondays and Wednesdays at its new and improved time, 9 Eastern Time. Emily, welcome back. Why the move to 9:00pm Eastern Time?
- [57:01]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, as I keep saying, it's prime time technically. Now, 10pm is also technically prime time, I guess, but Nielsen says peak viewership is like 9:15 to 9:30. So maybe we'll be hitting. We'll be hitting a sweet spot between east coast and west coast. That's the theory. Also easier to get guests because as you know, Mark, journalists are like already drunk by 10pm they don't want to come on a podcast.
- [57:23]
Mark Halperin
Well, or old journalists like me are already asleep by 10pm Liquor is a huge part of the program success. Do you expect people to be equally ready to liquor up at 9 right before?
- [57:35]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, again, this is where we're going for the sweet spot, right? Like right before people are too drunk for air, but just drunk enough.
- [57:41]
Mark Halperin
Got it, it's. It is. That is a sweet spot. It is a weird moment in the news because coming out of a long weekend have all these international stories, particularly Iran and Ukraine, that are just massive. And then Congress is away. Minnesota's kind of faded a little bit. And then the story about Savannah's mom is just, it's just so big. It just gets so much attention. But Epstein hovers. Epstein hovers. The reporters still going over the documents. The Clintons are testifying next week as I think undercovered Epstein's accountant and I think lawyer. And it's still a rolling thing. Here's my first question for you about Epstein. If you were queen, and to some extent that's not a hypothetical, if you were queen, what would the standard be to say a person loses their job and their place in society if they're in the Epstein files? What has to be true? Just having your name in there is not enough. So what is the Jasinsky standard to say Sorry. Too. Too closely associated with Epstein?
- [58:45]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, it's a really difficult question, actually, because if you look at the Peter Attia case study, this is I think, one of the most perfect cancel culture tests, stress tests you could ever conceive of. And it's, you know, newly into Barry Weiss, the anti cancel cultural journalist's tenure at cbs, they have to make a decision about whether to keep Peter Attia on as a contributor. And this is the one where I have kind of done a lot of like thinking about what it means before.
- [59:12]
Mark Halperin
Before you, before you, before you say. And I'm glad you chose that because it's a great example.
- [59:16]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah.
- [59:16]
Mark Halperin
This is a guy who's a, who's a doctor who gives. Who's a TV doctor. And CBS named him as to their board of contributors to come on CBS and talk about medical issues. Like literally the same news cycle as the Epstein files came out. And he had lots of exchanges with Epstein, including some a little racy and off color. No indication he knew of any law breaking. No indication that he. He broke any law. But. But his communication with Epstein continued after that divide line for many after he. Epstein was in prison. And. And the. The guy's major defense I think is just to summarize then turn it back to you is, is I, I didn't know famous people back then. I do now. But back then this was like a famous guy and I was kind of caught up in communicating with him. So please judge, jury and. And justice talk about how you grapple with the case of whether that guy not just should Be on cbs, but should he be a member of society.
- [60:16]
Emily Jashinsky
Still many such cases in the files, as Donald Trump would say, because there are a lot of, you know, at his specialty is longevity. And one of the things that you see in the emails is Epstein was very interested in research into transhumanism, arguably eugenics, and really trying to create different ideas about, like, what you could do with cells, for example, and how you could. I mean, at one point he was talking to Kathy Rummler, former White House counsel, about, can you, can people find me NSA to code break the human cell? Is there a way that we can apply code breaking to computers, to the cells? So he was engaged in some of this, the scientific research, and that meant a whole lot of scientists were sucking up to him. And you can see it over and over again in the files that scientists are sucking up to him in order to get research money or access to others who might give them research money. And Peter Attia seems to be among them. There's groveling, there's flattery, and there are some racy messages. Peter Attia was hired to be a TV doctor to talk on CBS about longevity. So if I were Barry Weiss, my questions would be, is this affecting your ability to be a good colleague? Right. So are people going to trust you, trust you less? Does this hurt interpersonal workplace things? Do you believe him? She knows him personally. Do you believe that he actually is sincere when he says, oh, my bad, didn't know that it was this significant that it went this deep. Thought he was just a little bit creepy and was trying to, you know, trying to broaden my network as a young doctor. So some of those things are important questions because it's different when people are just getting caught in the Epstein web and trying to flatter him in order to have a transactional relationship, get access to a bigger network and maybe even to some funding. And then how can they fit into your workplace? What is their purpose? I mean, those are good questions. But like Kathy Rumler, to me there are shades. And Rummler is such a good example of something. She was the CLO of Goldman Sachs until a couple of days ago. That's insane, given the close level of cooperation she had with Jeffrey Epstein and on some, like, political questions as well.
- [62:28]
Mark Halperin
Right, so you're absolutely right. I agree with everything you said and you framed it really well in terms of what the questions are for for someone like Barry Weiss. And every case is different, as you said. But are there, are there bright lines for you to say, well, if you did X, we know Breaking the law is a bright line, we know. Explicit participation in illegal activity, we know that's a bright line. But is there, is there, are there any other bright lines for you to say if you did this with Epstein, if you did this, you're out and you should lose your job?
- [62:59]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. I mean, I think if you were a willful participant in his schemes, whether they were political or scientific, meaning you were collaborating with him on unethical projects and you were doing it willingly after he went to prison, I think that's a pretty clear red line. If you are, you know, Tom Barack, who is working with him, he's now our ambassador to Turkey, who was working with Epstein seemingly on, on political questions behind the scenes, as actually CBS reported out. That's. I think that's a pretty bright red line, but I'm not sure that, you know, in this post Trump era, people are, have the appetite to be drawing bright red lines.
- [63:38]
Mark Halperin
Well, so that's interesting, right, because maga, we were told for months, was really interested in accountability on Epstein. And so there's two people in the President's government. One is ambassador to Turkey, his friend Tom Brock. Another, also a friend of his, the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, whose entanglements with Epstein were, were significant. They weren't the most entangled with them, but they both had lots of dealings with them. In the case of Howard Lutnick, he didn't tell the truth about it when he was asked, why is MAGA so relatively quiet about those two guys remaining in the Trump administration, given their relationship with Epstein? I'm not, I'm not judging it. I'm asking you, how do you explain it?
- [64:15]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, and there's also, we were talking about Steve Bannon last night, who, speaking of people who are willful participants, it's. It's pretty clear in the text messages, particularly that have been released that Bannon and Epstein and actually Kathy Rummeler as well, were colluding in this broader effort to rehabilitate his image. And we still don't totally understand financially how that may have benefited Rummler and Bannon, who we know Epstein gave gifts to. But, you know, the, the question I think is of why, why MAGA isn't demanding scalps is that, frankly, Trump himself is so was entangled with Epstein for many years. And that complicates it. If you start drawing red lines that, you know, cast Tom Barack out or cast Steve Bannon out, then it's like, well, Virginia Jaffre said she was recruited. And actually, I think even Ghislaine Maxwell has agreed. Virginia Jeffrey was recruited from Mar A Lago itself. And so whether or not people are validated in the Democratic Party towards their concerns or about their concerns towards Donald Trump and his relationship with Epstein, the fact of the matter is on paper, if you're comparing some of these cases, Trump himself is in the birthday book. Like, there are some problems for Trump.
- [65:30]
Mark Halperin
Well, well, I mean, Trump's, Trump's activity, though, is before he went to prison. And for a lot of people, that's a bright line. What you seem to be suggesting, and again, I'm not criticizing your position or doubting it, but you seem to be saying there's some group think amongst MAGA that everybody kind of reaches conclusion. Well, Trump's connected to it, so we need to go easy. Some people work for Trump. You know, Bannon doesn't work for Trump. Rummler doesn't work for Trump. The ambassador to Turkey, the Commerce Secretary do you're saying MAGA basically said, we don't care about Epstein anymore or accountability for Epstein anymore because of this. Like, what's the, what's the group think within maga? I'm just confused by it. I just, it just seems odd that they were so concerned about it. Remember, not that long ago you had all these podcast hosts saying, Mr. President, you got to release everything. There needs to be accountability. And now everything gets released, or at least a lot gets released. And they don't, they don't seem to say, well, your Commerce Secretary and your ambassador to Turkey were really close to Epstein. It's now clear to one degree or another. They just, it's. I don't hear any conversation about accountability.
- [66:37]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, and actually on that point, it's interesting too, because one of the people who has led these criticisms sometimes of the Trump administration from the populist right is none other than Steve Bannon, who is in a position now to lead this populist criticism of maga. So it might actually be muted partially because of that. People don't know exactly what to make of the entire situation. I also think a lot of people on the right have just been so soured on what happened during the Biden administration with Democrats now saying, oh, we suddenly care about Epstein, we dismissed this as a conspiracy theory. This was all QAnon insanity and mouth breathing, knuckle dragging nonsense for years. And now they're the ones who look like they have the moral high ground because the President himself did not want to sign the Transparency Act. And so I think on the right, it's just this deep exhaustion or fatigue with the political football of it. And they're like, well, if Dems were going to do that for years, switch. And then, you know, the media gives them the credibility of having the moral high ground. There's just no moral high ground anymore. So we're done even playing this game of canceling someone for Epstein connections. That's. Those are two guesses at explanations, but it's a good question.
- [67:49]
Mark Halperin
Best explanation I've heard. Tell everybody nice and slowly how they can listen to your program.
- [67:55]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, you can watch After Party. Mark said to go slowly, speed it.
- [67:59]
Mark Halperin
Up a little bit.
- [68:01]
Emily Jashinsky
Live on YouTube at 9pm but also you can catch it on any podcast platform and also of course on YouTube any other time you don't have to watch live, but it's extra fun live. Marcus sometimes at the gym.
- [68:11]
Mark Halperin
And what about your great other content?
- [68:13]
Emily Jashinsky
Yes, well, the Megyn Kelly Wrap up show airs on SiriusXM channel 111 right after Megan every day. So right at 2pm for an an hour. You can also catch me over at Breaking Points and as a columnist for Unheard. Thanks, Mark.
- [68:26]
Mark Halperin
I gotta get, I gotta get a show right after Megan's. That seems like a good slot.
- [68:30]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, well, the RCP guys have before and then I come in after. It's like a, it's a mag. It's a Megan sandwich. So. Yeah. Mark, you're earlier, right? You're earlier.
- [68:39]
Mark Halperin
Well, I just started today. I'm right before the RSP guys. So it's. It's me, them, Megan, you. That's. That's like Murderer's Row.
- [68:48]
Emily Jashinsky
That's too. It's too much. It's too much.
- [68:51]
Mark Halperin
Emily, grateful to you for making time. Always great to see you. And congratulations on moving earlier and being able to get to your raves earlier as well.
- [68:57]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, that's the important thing.
- [68:59]
Mark Halperin
After you wrap. That's it for today's program. Our thanks to Michael and to Emily for being here. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my new 8 for 28 ranking. So send us an email and let us know what you think. We're going to be back on Thursday with a brand new episode. As always, we ask you every day, every week and some of you just ignore me. Don't. Don't ignore me. Subscribe to NextUp on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Tell all your friends they want to be charter members. Not too late to be a charter member. To be Nexters so they can be part of the program however you listen to it or watch it. And everybody can always know what's coming. Next up. See you on Thursday. Cash now, more later From Opendoor gives you cash up front for your home, plus all the profit later. That's no chaos now. No cash left behind later. Skip the showings now. Pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now. This is so awesome. Later. Or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash now, more later. Now available nationwide. Start your offer@opendoor.com radio profits calculated after fees and costs. Eligibility and offer price may vary.
- [70:11]
Emily Jashinsky
Psoriatic Arthritis Symptoms can be unpredictable I.
- [70:15]
Michael Alfonso
Had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to.
- [70:18]
Mark Halperin
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