Jake Tapper (6:58)

Will you pledge that if you're elected you will be transparent about your health, all facets of your health, with urgency, so that we know.

Mark Halpern (7:07)

Yes.

Jake Tapper (7:08)

One poll shows that almost 2/3 of Democratic voters want a new nominee in 2024. And the top reason they gave was your age. You know, that's not a good number for President Biden. Two thirds of the American people say he's not sharp enough to be president.

Mark Halpern (7:21)

Yeah, I mean, how can you use the bully pulpit. When you don't have a bully, you can put in the pulpit.

Jake Tapper (7:24)

Okay, so you're part of the 23% of adults who is not. Who are not concerned about the president's ability to be president because of his age and stamina. I mean, I know incumbents in general are not popular right now, but do you ever think maybe we should have a new candidate? There's a little bit of denialism with the president. This is a particularly bad week for this report and its comments about President Biden's faculties and his memory to come out, because twice this week he has acted as if he, in 2021, spoke to European leaders who have been dead for years. Part of the job of president is the having the confidence of the American people in your faculties. The White House's response every single time.

Mark Halpern (8:06)

It has come up for three and.

Jake Tapper (8:07)

A half years has been to deflect.

Mark Halpern (8:09)

To gaslight, to not tell the truth. Not just to reporters, not just to other Democrats, but even at times to themselves. So you saw, and if you're listening on the podcast, you heard there are two voices. One is, is Alex Thompson, who was an aggressive reporter, as aggressive as almost any reporter in trying to figure out what was going on with Joe Biden's mental acuity and how his team was handling it. And then you heard the voice of Jake Tapper. And the publisher did as good a job as it could to find clips of Jake Tapper seeming to be at least interested in the topic of Joe Biden's mental decline. So we thought, well, what are the counter counters to that? Because I, I know that no one at CNN was particularly aggressive about this. And I had no indication from my memory that Jake Tapper was aggressive. So we went and looked at the full appearances, the full segments in which Jake Tapper was. In which clips were pulled for that publisher video to ask ourselves, did the full clips demonstrate that Jake Capper, in attitude and determination and focus, was in real time during the campaign, during Biden's presidency, interested in getting to the bottom of this? So let's look at some of the clips from the publisher video. But beyond what they chose to include, here is Joe Biden's interview with Jake Tapper in 2022.

Jake Tapper (9:28)

You're about to turn 80 next month. Happy birthday. Ahead of time. Whenever anyone raises concerns about your age, you're the oldest president in the history of the United States, you always say, watch me. Voters have been watching you. Democratic voters approve of the job you're doing. Democratic voters overwhelmingly like you. But one poll shows that almost two thirds of Democratic voters want a new nominee in 2024. And the top reason they gave was your age. So what's your message to Democrats who like you, who like what you've done but are concerned about your age and the demands of the job?

Rich Lowry (10:01)

Well, they're concerned about whether or not.

Michael Bennett (10:03)

I can get anything done.

Mark Halpern (10:04)

Look what I've gotten done. Name me a president in recent history.

Michael Bennett (10:07)

That'S gotten as much done as I.

Mark Halpern (10:08)

Have in the first two years. Not a joke. You may not like what I got.

Michael Bennett (10:12)

Done, but the vast majority of the.

Mark Halpern (10:13)

American people do like what I got done. So he wishes them happy birthday. He asked them about one poll. He's not asking him about what was already on in evidence then, which is mental decline. He's simply saying there's a poll that says Democrats don't like you. So I look at that and I say, that's not the way I would have asked it. That's not a guy who was determined to get beyond just asking about a poll. That's a guy who want to wish that president a happy birthday. All right, here's another clip. This is again from another interview that the public, another appearance, the publisher included. This is the White House press secretary and Jake Tapper asking her a question. Again, this is from the same segment that the publisher used to prove that Jake Tapper was serious about getting to the bottom of this cover up.

Jake Tapper (10:55)

That's what I'm saying. That's the 77% who are concerned.

Michael Bennett (10:58)

No, no, no.

Mark Halpern (10:58)

But I've had conversations with some of your colleagues in the White House press corps when we travel abroad, how it is hard for us to keep up with this president who is constantly, constantly working every day to get things done and making sure that we are delivering for the American people. And that's what. And I think that's what matters. I get it. I get what you're asking me. But the record matters too, Jake. What he's been able to do, no other president has been able to do. If you look at his legislative. What did the White House do to try to control the press to keep them from asking a compliant and pliant pressure? One is they privately called them and browbeat them and said, do not cover this. If you cover this, you'll be cut off. I don't know if they did that to Jay Capper or not, but they also did what she did there in public. They said things that were ridiculous. Oh, he runs circles around us. He's tireless. I mean, look at his schedule, that interview. By the time that interview had occurred, there were many instances of the President having a very light schedule on overseas trips, canceling events with foreign leaders. They say, well, he always did his job and he did his job great. No, he canceled events and he had a very light schedule. So here again, he asked the pro forma question. She bats it away with one of their usual lines of spin. Oh, he's so energetic. He runs circles around the younger staff. There's no evidence of it. It's a made up piece of spin and he seemed to accept it there. Here's another example again, drawn from the same appearance that the publisher used to prove that Jake Capper was, was tough. And this is with another Biden spokesperson, Kate Bedingfield, who by the way, was a CNN consultant. So she's being paid by CNN to spin for Joe Biden with her colleagues with whom she shares a green room and everything else. This is From February of 2024, shortly before everything went south for Joe Biden.

Jake Tapper (12:41)

So this memory issue is already out there.

Mark Halpern (12:45)

But I want to know how many voters in Michigan, Wisconsin, you think know the difference between no, no, they don't.

Jake Tapper (12:52)

Know, but they or are going to cast their vote.

Michael Bennett (12:55)

Well, you asked.

Jake Tapper (12:56)

Sorry. Okay.

Mark Halpern (12:57)

Or are going to cast their vote for president based on whether someone is naming Emmanuel Macron or Francois Mitterrade, whose name they probably don't even know. Here is perhaps the biggest tell of all. If you are a reporter and you are determined to get to the bottom of this, if you think there may be a cover up at the highest levels of the government, a potential constitutional crisis, you would not treat Biden officials with humor or lightness. You would be tough and determined to get to the bottom of it. You don't ask about in the context of polls, which is the way he mostly asked about it. You don't accept spin that voters don't care. If you really are concerned about getting to the bottom of this, you ask the question. This is, it's so funny I even have to say this. You ask the question about specific incidents and, and how they would explain it. And the one I always come back to is when there was an event in honor of a congresswoman who had passed away and Joe Biden tried to speak to her as if she were alive. And there, okay, that's not confusing the names of two European leaders. That's not knowing which way to walk off the stage. That's not having your first public event at noon. That's not. Not doing events at Night that is right in plain sight. And to ask about it the way he did in that appearance and to accept her spin that voters don't care, again, welcome to do it if that's what you want to do. But to do that and then write a book saying, I was determined to get to the bottom of it. This is. What is. This is. I don't mean to just pick on Jake Tapper, but he's the one who wrote the book. This is where every reporter, practically every reporter is. They engaged in the lightest questioning, the lightest possible questioning, and then accepted the bullying, accepted the spin. And again, again, they acted as if. Now Jake Tapper is acting as if he had been determined to get to the bottom of it. All right, this is from 2020, okay? Right before the 2020 election, Lara Trump, President Trump's daughter in law, did an interview with Jake Tapper. And watch how indignant he gets at the mere suggestion that Joe Biden, who's doing his Delaware basement campaign, has suffered mental decline. Please roll 109. Every time he comes on stage or they turn to him, I'm like, Joe.

Michael Bennett (15:11)

Can you get it out? Let's get the words out.

Mark Halpern (15:13)

Joe, you kind of feel bad for him.

Jake Tapper (15:15)

How do you think it makes little kids with stutters feel when they see you make a comment like that?

Mark Halpern (15:22)

First and foremost, I had no idea that Joe Biden ever suffered from a stutter. I think what we see on stage with Joe Biden, Jake, is very clearly a cognitive decline. And that's what I'm referring to. It makes me uncomfortable.

Jake Tapper (15:36)

You are. No, it's so amazing. It's so amazing to me that.

Mark Halpern (15:40)

And try and figure out an answer.

Jake Tapper (15:42)

A cognitive decline.

Mark Halpern (15:43)

You're trying to tell me that what I was suggesting was a stutter?

Jake Tapper (15:46)

I think that you were mocking his stutter. I think you were mocking his stutter. And I think you have absolutely no standing to diagnose somebody's cognitive decline. I would think that somebody in the Trump family would be more sensitive to, to people who do not have medical licenses, diagnosing politicians from afar. Plenty of people have diagnosed your father from afar. And I'm sure it offends you, your father in law from afar. I'm sure it offends you. You don't have any standing to say what I'm saying. James, you just talked about a cognitive.

Mark Halpern (16:16)

Decline that Joe Biden is.

Jake Tapper (16:18)

I have one last question for you, Laura.

Mark Halpern (16:20)

Times on stage, and it's very concerning to a lot of people that this could be the leader of the free world. That is all I'm saying. I genuinely am sorry for Joe Biden.

Jake Tapper (16:30)

I appreciate it, I'm sure.

Mark Halpern (16:31)

Yeah. So he indignantly cuts off the interview. She's not a doctor. Jake's not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. But I talked to a lot of doctors in 2017-2018-2019-2020, 2021-2022-2023-2024. And many of them said, look, I don't usually diagnose people from afar, but obviously there's mental and cognitive decline. He criticized her and cut her off and I think was a little rude to her in with indignity, saying, how dare you say that? You're in a position to say the guy has mental decline. Well, guess what? Now that Jake Capper has written a book about this, he says right in the publicity material for the, for the book, that there was this mental decline that was so apparent and that there was this big cover up in the White House. Now, I give them credit for pointing out the COVID up in the White House because that was not aggressively covered, because anytime anyone tried to do it, they were threatened and bullied and spun in public. And most reporters just gave up. But you cannot be part of restoring the credibility of the media to cover Donald Trump aggressively if your posture is, oh, we did nothing wrong, we aggressively covered it, or worse, in some ways, we didn't even see it. How could we have seen it? We didn't. We weren't in these private meetings. The COVID up was so intense. I'll say again, Joe Biden's decline was not uniform. There were days when he was just fine. So Republicans who say he was 100% gone and weekend at Bernie's and someone else was running the government, that's not true. But his decline was pronounced. There's a reason why he had a light schedule. He didn't talk to reporters. And there's a reason why all these things that happen in public that we all saw were ignored by the press because they didn't want to help Donald Trump win. They didn't want to be blamed if he won again. It's one of the most embarrassing things I've seen. So this morning, reading Politico, their daily tip sheet, the Politico playbook, and this is what they write. And it's amazing to me that this is still being still the way the press which defended and protected Joe Biden, is framing things. For what it's worth. Biden has continued to deny any suggestion that he experienced cognitive decline while in office. They are wrong. The former president said in an interview last week on the View that there is nothing to sustain that. I mean, I get letting Joe Biden have his say. But for what it's worth, Joe Biden has continued to deny any suggestion he experienced cognitive decline. I mean, how could they write that? How could they, how could they credit that? It makes no sense. But it's the mindset that most every reporter, not Alex Thompson, but his co author, and again, almost every reporter that's now being asked with the authority and the responsibility of, of covering Donald Trump to be responsible for that. It's the same line. So Jake Tapper, his book coming out in a week, here he is this morning on CNN creating a whole new set of realities. Watch this. You have an entire White House press corps, though, following him around. And I'm just curious as to whether or not this kind of trying to hide what was happening with the president at the time had an impact on the press corps. Like why didn't we hear some of these detail from what they actually saw and were dealing with, trying to get information?

Jake Tapper (19:49)

Well, Alex Thompson and I were on the case, as were lots of other reporters trying to figure out what was going on behind the scenes. But the bottom line is the White House was lying not only to the press, not only to the public, but they were lying to members of their own cabinet, they were lying to White House staffers, they were lying to Democratic members of Congress, to donors about how bad things had gotten. And in fact, Alex and I started writing this book after the election of 2024. And we spoke with more than 200 people, most of whom, almost all of whom were Democrats and almost all of whom wouldn't be honest with us or wouldn't be candid with us until after the election. And then after the election, we found out all of these things that when you looked at what was going on with President Biden at the time, it probably doesn't surprise you the extent to which he was deteriorating. But now we have anecdotes and facts about what was really going on behind the scenes with details that Democrats wouldn't share with us until after election day.

Mark Halpern (20:50)

All right, again, amazing. True. Here's something true that he said that Jake Capper said on CNN this morning, true that there was a cover up that senior Biden officials worked very hard to cover up as much as they could his decline, including amongst other people in the government and in the campaign. That's true. Here's two things that are not true. Okay. And this is where the credibility is just so important that people be honest. I shouldn't be the only one in the media being honest about this. It's bizarre. One thing that's not true is that you needed that the COVID up is, was so good that no one could see this, that we couldn't possibly have gotten to the bottom of this during the election. Again, it makes me mental. It was clear. I saw it with my own eyes. In 2017 at a public event with hundreds of people. You saw it almost every day. Not every day, but almost every day, both in what he did and the fact that he had such a limited schedule. So it is not true that it's only after the election that Jake Tapper could have gotten to the bottom of this and the rest of the Washington press corps could have gotten to the bottom of it. The other thing that's not true is that the press is blameless because they were more than just stymied in the telling of Jay Tapper, they were stymied from getting to the truth. No, they weren't. They were part of the conspiracy and the COVID up. They allowed themselves to believe the ridiculous spin on tv in public and privately. They allowed themselves to be browbeat. I know reporters. Again, I said before, I don't know that Jake Papper was browbeat by Biden folks, but I know reporters who were. They were told, you will lose access. The New York Post lost access because they covered the Hunter Biden story. Reporters who covered any story the Biden people didn't like were denied access to. Sound familiar? A White House denying access to the press when they don't like what's written or said. This is a crisis. The book's going to come out. Conservatives online are already criticizing it along the same lines I am. But this should not be a red blue thing where the Democrats pretend that the book is on the up and up and the press pretends the book is on the up and up and they're criticized by red people on X and elsewhere. That shouldn't be the way this goes. Because the true story, the true story of what happened, whatever the book reveals about the COVID up within the administration, the true story is that that video that the publisher put together to try to show Jake Capper in the best light, the best light about how aggressive he was before the election, that's weak tea. But it becomes even more watered down when you show the full context of what he said in those very appearances and elsewhere, people treated it like a political story, like a polling story, like a partisan story that's not what this was. If you want an America where the press corps can hold Donald Trump accountable, he's the current president, hold Donald Trump accountable. You want an America where this book is an opportunity not for Jake Capper to make money and his co author to make money. It's an opportunity for the press, every organization that participated in the COVID up, to come clean and to say what, again, is so obvious, I shouldn't have to say was clear that Joe Biden had cognitive decline. It was clear that it was spun and covered up and bullying tactics were used. It was clear that people who didn't say it aloud had a partisan interest in not saying it aloud and that that included the media, which didn't say a word, not because they couldn't see it, but because they didn't want to be accused of helping Donald Trump win. I want this to be an opportunity to come clean. Because if we don't now, I'm not sure what other opportunity people will take. It's not that hard. Be honest. Say what happened. Say what we all saw in countless videos, in countless presidential appearances. Say it. Because if we do, then we can do our jobs correctly and cover the current president with aggressively, aggressively and with the trust of the American people. Please. All right, next up, my conversation with Rich Lowry of the National Review. And then a little bit later, my talk with Michael Bennett, senator from Colorado, a dad and guy running for governor. Governor. That's all. Next up. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com creditcard based on the February 2024 Nelson Report. You know, tax day may have already passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble it's just starting out. If you miss the April 15 deadline or you still owe back taxes, the IRS may be ramping up enforcement. Every day you wait, it only makes things worse for you. So with over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily and tools like property seizures, bank levies and wage garnishments, the IRS is now applying pressure on individuals across this country. Look, increased administrative scrutiny means collections are moving fast. But the good news, there's still time for Tax Network USA to give you a hand if you're self employed or you're a business owner, even if your books are just a mess, they've got you covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos to get you right back on track quickly. Even after the deadline, you can still regain control. Your consultation with them is completely free, and acting now could stop penalties, threatening letters and surprise levies before things escalate. Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com NextUp. You may have missed that April 15 deadline, but you've not had of options. Let Tax Network USA help you before the IRS makes the next move. That's 1-800-958-1000, or you can visit tnusa.com NextUp Next up, my conversation with I like to call him the man of the hour, even though that makes no sense in this context. Rich Lowry, the editor of National Review, always the man of the hour. Rich, welcome and thank you for being here.

Rich Lowry (27:15)

Thanks for having me.

Mark Halpern (27:17)

We talked in the first segment about the media's cover up of Joe Biden's loss of mental acuity and this new book which is making the claim that there was no way for the press to get at this story. What's your advice to the press about how to cover this book and how to seize the opportunity to restore credibility in this moment?

Rich Lowry (27:37)

Well, I don't know how the media is going to store credibility, but this was one of the most preposterous lies that we've ever seen and it was perpetrated like in front of our faces. We all saw it. Now, one of the revelations of this book is that they're considering a wheelchair. Now, why would that be shocking? Anyone who's had an older relative and they begin to shuffle like that and they have some falls, you know, it's not getting better. You're holding your breath, you know, every time they're going over the edge of a carpet or a rug. But they, they just lied to us about this. I remember when, when the fall. Which one was it? Mark. And it was at West Point Point. When he went over the sandbag. Yeah. And I tweeted, this just isn't good. Right. When you're this age and you begin to fall, it's downward from there. And John Harwood and others like, what are you talking about? You know, Gerald Ford fell down and he was the most athletic president ever. Yeah. We all trip and stumble. But we're not all 80 years old and clearly in decline. So we could all see it. We all knew it. We all had some, we didn't know exactly what was going on, but we all had some sense of what was going on. And at least now the truth could be told. But it's only now that it's less inconvenient to tell the truth that's beginning to come out.

Mark Halpern (28:52)

You know, there's obviously lots of groupthink and tribal loyalty in MAGA and in the Republican Party. If you took an open vote on tariffs, Republican senators wouldn't be for tariffs, but they pretend that they are. But you take the plane, right, The Qatari plane being offered to the president. Lots of prominent conservatives are speaking out, with the exception of one congressperson from Minnesota. There was this conspiracy of silence for years. And I don't understand. Leave the media aside for a minute. I don't understand how the party is not being more introspective about what that means for its ability to have a reputation for honesty and integrity and for running, you know, a well managed process.

Rich Lowry (29:34)

Yeah, they can't admit it even now. I mean, Amy Klobuchar was asked about this on Meet the Press over the weekend. Should he have dropped out sooner? And she said, oh, yeah, of course, you know, but we're focused on, on the future. But there's, there's a lot hanging on that. Of course, right? No, no one said it at the time. It was only when it became completely undeniable and potentially catastrophic, or they realized it was catastrophic after the first debate that they, they began to turn around on this. But Mark, I just remember when Clooney wrote the op ed, right, which kind of was a key inflection point and getting Biden out. He said at that Hollywood fundraiser that I sponsored, he wasn't the same. But we all, we all saw that fundraiser. We all knew Obama was there as a crush to have, like a lively person on stage. And Biden clearly froze when he was waving to the crowd. No one waves and has to be reminded to stop waving. That does not happen in normal interactions. All this pointed out in real time. That's weird. That's concerning. Something's going on. They all said we were full of it. They all said we were making it up, that it was a hoax. But as soon as Clooney says, oh, he wasn't the same, then you have John Favreau, you know, one of the Obama bros, saying, I was freaked out at that fundraiser. My wife was freaked out. My wife asked me, john, what are we going to do? Everyone was talking about it at their tables, but none of them dared say a peep about it again until they thought, okay, this is unsustainable. And we got to do something else.

Mark Halpern (30:58)

Can you think of an analog in history to what, what happened?

Rich Lowry (31:03)

You know, it's like Edith Wilson. Right? I mean, Wilson has a stroke, it is debilitated, and she, she runs the government and they have people come in, they, they cover up. I don't know whether it's left or right side.

Mark Halpern (31:17)

I mean, I mean, I mean, less. Something health related, but just a party and conspiring with the media to just not tell the truth of something that's happening in plain sight.

Rich Lowry (31:26)

You know, maybe, maybe JFK and the, the dalliances, which kind of everyone knew, but you, you didn't, you didn't talk about.

Mark Halpern (31:35)

Well, but there weren't public opinion polls saying 80% of the people think JFK, you know, shouldn't be having affairs. Like.

Rich Lowry (31:42)

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't like the public saw him go into a swimming pool with the secretary and the media said, no, you're making it up.

Mark Halpern (31:50)

Right. That's why it's hard. I had trouble thinking of an analog because, because the public saw it all. Yeah, Democrats saw it all. Rank and file Democrats. It's just, it's a weird thing.

Rich Lowry (32:00)

All right, the FDR, 1944.

Mark Halpern (32:03)

Yeah.

Rich Lowry (32:04)

But, you know, he was reelected and people were willing to look past it. And he had, like, back then, campaigning was different. So he had one campaign event where he drove around New York City in, in the rain. Everyone's like, okay, he's, he's still, he's still vigorous. But everyone knew otherwise. Everyone knew he was dying.

Mark Halpern (32:18)

Right. All right, let's talk about Trump for the first, for the transition in the first few weeks. Months. The perception for most people we know was things are going well. Trump's moving fast. He's getting a lot done. The opposition is extremely weak. The party loyalty is high. And then we had signal gate and tariffs, and the narrative became, no, there's a bunch of clowns and Trump's doomed and it's all gonna go bad. Where are you now in kind of the macro appraisal of how Trump's presidency is going?

Rich Lowry (32:47)

Well, it's not as great as the first month or two, but that's kind of inevitable. Right, Mark? The first month or two, you control events as a president and then inevitably things happening happen to you. And the first thing that happened to him was signal gate. Not, not a huge event, but it shifted the narrative a little bit. But I think the tariffs are the big story. And that's not something that was done To Trump, it's something he did. He had to touch the, the hot stove. He was warned by people, don't, don't do it this way. There's going to be a big market reaction and real economic turmoil in the country. But because he's such a deep believer in tariffs, he, he went and, and did it and he got the reaction and now he's pulling it back. So the optimistic scenario continues to have various deals with, with other countries, gets the big beautiful bill. There's some still economic disruption just based on what's happened at this point, but no recession and, and you move on from, from there. But I think that's, that's the biggest story of the Trump presidency so far.

Mark Halpern (33:44)

I want to read you something I read this morning and see if you agree with it or not. This person wrote Trump prides himself on his deal making, but he hasn't gotten anything from the UK Or China over the last week that he couldn't have achieved with much less disruption. You wrote that.

Rich Lowry (33:58)

I don't know what Trump here, I don't know what Trump writer came up with that. Mark.

Mark Halpern (34:01)

Yeah, you probably agree with it. I want to challenge you. I'm not sure about the UK Because I don't really understand that deal, but I want to challenge you about China because, because while there's no final deal yet, I would argue that Trump did get something from China that he couldn't have gotten without the threat, which is he's got their attention.

Rich Lowry (34:20)

Say again, just being at the table.

Mark Halpern (34:22)

Yeah, he's got their attention. And he proved to them if the reports out of China are true. And I hear this, I read this from others, but I hear it from people I know who do business in China. He proved he could disrupt their economy to an extent that threatened Xi's ability, not just for economic vibrancy, but for controlling the country. And I think there's a lot of value in that because to me, the whole gain here, not just on economics and tariffs, but on security and diplomacy and spheres of influence, is getting leverage over Xi because Xi is a master, like Putin, of not allowing there to be leverage over him by an American president. I think Trump got something huge from China, which is, again, Xi now gets it. He can't just ignore what Trump wants to do with trade and these other issues. So do you want to revise and extend or tell me.

Rich Lowry (35:10)

I think that's a good, that's a good counter point. I'm not sure that Trump, that they were ever discounting Trump or not paying serious attention to him. And there's a mutual blinking here. So that's sort of the optimistic take from the US Perspective is Z realizes how vulnerable he is. On the other hand, he knows how vulnerable we are. Right. And, and Trump blinked because there was a prospect of empty store shelves, of higher prices, of small businesses going extinct if you just pulled the rug out in terms of a relationship with China. So I, I, I just think in general, maybe you're right about China, but even, even if you are really the UK we couldn't just sit down with the UK with, without this huge tariff threat and all, you know, Vietnam, really, if Trump came to them and said, I'm going 45% of you guys in 90 days, unless we sit down and talk, they're, they're not going to talk. They, they will. And my worry is geopolitically that because we've tariffed everyone, including our allies, it, it, it's a benefit to China because they could, they have the opportunity now to go cut deals with all these, these countries and say, look, we're more reliable than the United States. We're not going to pull the rug out from, from under you when the play would have been to the extent we were upset with our allies and various restrictions on our stuff. Go work that out with them. Try to do it behind closed doors and then ring fence China and then, and then deal with China from position of strength where you have all these better deals with the allies.

Mark Halpern (36:40)

I, I, I get that argument, but I'd say two things that I think are at least plausibly true, and I think they animate Trump's perspective. One is that I believe we can make up with these countries. I don't believe that the damage is irreparable, even with Canada, because they need the United States so much. There is so much goodwill. And the other is the first question we were talking about vis a vis China, which is, could you have gotten these things without breaking, walking into their homes and breaking their China and saying, now you're going to need new China? I just don't think, using the other meaning of China, I just don't think that's true. At least I don't think it's obviously false. I think the whole point of what Trump was doing was to say, again, it's some of the stuff he did in foreign policy in the first term. I'm a fucking crazy person. Like, I'll do anything. I'll say we're going to annex Canada. I will say and do anything. Now do I have your Attention, let's fix this. And, and the reality is, and this is, again, I believe the President's point of view. They say they're our friends and they're so affronted that we're talking to them negatively. Buy our beef, you know, buy our products, like, fund NATO the way you're supposed to. Like, they haven't really done a good job of living up to the friendship for, for decades on economics and on NATO when it comes to Europe. So he needs to get their attention and he needs to get their focus off of the status quo. Again, I, I'm not, I'm not a full supporter of it, but I see that argument and I think people who discount it and say, well, you've made the French and the Canadians mad. Eh? We have a right to be mad.

Rich Lowry (38:09)

Yeah. So I've always been a big fan of I'm an effing crazy person argument. I think there's, there's a lot of deterrent power and being perceived that way. But I think since that is already his image, that he could have gone into a room or sent someone to the room and say, look, this guy is an effing crazy person. So let, let's talk now or in 90 days. You don't want to see what's coming. And that would have gotten their attention the same way this did. But the downside of this, Mark, is there's been real economic harm. Right. You, you've had businesses not knowing whether they're going to get their, their stuff from Western China and the container ships, and we stopped it because of the risk of what we were going to do to, to ourselves.

Mark Halpern (38:50)

All right, leave aside. We'll do a little bit of a rapid round here. Leave aside Susie Wiles, Scott Bessant and the Vice President. Leave those three aside. Who are your three biggest stars? The Trump administration.

Rich Lowry (39:01)

I'm leaving aside Susie Wiles, Scott Bessant.

Mark Halpern (39:04)

And the Vice President.

Rich Lowry (39:05)

Scott Besson and the Vice President, I would say one is Sean Duffy, who is dealing with a lot of stuff that he didn't expect, is an extremely effective communicator and is going to get a bipartisan bill dealing with all the stuff that people want to stop. You know, Stephen Miller, some people have an image of him just totally based on the driveway press conferences and the cable TV performances. You don't survive in Trump world for, you know, it's been almost a decade without being extremely adept political player. Also, he is one of the most creative and acute political minds I've ever encountered. It drives people crazy when I say that people who just know him from the cable hits. But I'm telling you, it's absolutely true. And I need a third. What are some nominees for a third, Mark?

Mark Halpern (40:00)

Some nominees for a third. You might like the Attorney General. Nah. All right, you might like the Commerce Secretary.

Rich Lowry (40:10)

No, no, I don't.

Mark Halpern (40:11)

No. All right, you might like. How about Marco Rubio?

Rich Lowry (40:15)

Yeah, Marco Wyckoff. Yeah.

Mark Halpern (40:18)

Not a big Witkoff.

Rich Lowry (40:19)

Not Wyckoff. Definitely Marco. I should have thought of Marco. So Marco comes in a little bit like Walt. People are very maga. People are suspicious of him, probably have the knives out for him. It seems as though his, his bailiwick's getting chopped up. Speaking of Witkoff, you know, various special envoys. So it seemed as though he could be very weak. Secretary of State, you know, maybe on his way out before the first year. Instead he has, he's wearing all these different hats, has earned the president's trust, the basis trust and has done really good work. And they've been on the latter, the basis trust. I mean, obviously both of them, they've been really deliberate about it. They think a lot about it and it has worked.

Mark Halpern (41:00)

All right, Rich. Larry Nash Review thank you for sharing the next UP moment with us today. Grateful to you.

Rich Lowry (41:05)

Thanks, Mark.

Mark Halpern (41:06)

And next up here, the gentleman from Colorado, the Senator Michael Bennett, who's running for governor, will talk about the arc of his fatherhood and his time in Washington and beyond. That's all mixed up. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think disc isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report and now let me tell you a story. It's about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This Doberman was severely underweight, clearly in need of a lot of help. Leo rescued that Doberman and he named him. He called him Delta. Sadly, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start a new organization called Delta Rescue. It's the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the whole world. They've rescued thousands of dogs and cats and horses from the wilderness and they provide all their animals with what they need, shelter love, safety and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals is Leo's mission and his legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us. So if you want to start caring for these animals and have it be part of your legacy, speak with your estate planner. Because there are tax savings and estate planning benefits, too. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor. We call dogs man's best friend for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please, right now visit deltarescue.org today to learn more again, go to deltarescue.org next up, the senator from Colorado and now gubernatorial candidate Michael Bennett. He is someone who has been in elective office for not that long a period of time, was in the private sector and worked on education in Denver and then was chosen for a Senate seat, which he has defended and won reelection in his home state of Colorado. This is a political ad from Senator Bennett's first campaign for the Senate. He's our dad, Michael Bennet, and he sure doesn't like a mess.

Rich Lowry (43:41)

As a businessman, he helped clean up companies instead of jobs.

Michael Bennett (43:45)

Then he worked with Mayor Hickenlooper.

Mark Halpern (43:47)

That's hard to say.

Rich Lowry (43:48)

To cut waste and balance the budget. And he helped reform schools. Dad's been in the Senate for one year. He says it's the biggest mess he's ever seen. He's our dad and he'll always fight for Colorado.

Michael Bennett (44:01)

I'm Michael Bennett and I approve this message because now it's time to clean up Washington.

Mark Halpern (44:07)

Joining us now, Colorado Senator Michael Bennett. Senator, welcome. How old were those girls when, when that ad was made and how old are they now?

Michael Bennett (44:14)

They were 9, 7 and 4, Mark. And they're 25, 24 and 22 now.

Mark Halpern (44:20)

Yeah. And what do you think? What do you think in looking at that spot? I don't know. When have you seen that lately?

Michael Bennett (44:25)

Yeah, I haven't seen it for many years. And I think, first of all, that was a fairly insightful thing to say back then. It turns out it wasn't even close to the truth of how screwed up this place is.

Mark Halpern (44:40)

Yeah, I, you know, you and I have known each other since we were in our 20s and we haven't talked much about parenthood. I've got one son. You've got your girls. But I listen to your public comments about them regularly. And I. And almost every interview, they come up, not almost but plenty of times just talk about what being a father has meant to you. Forget being in elective office, but what is being a father meant to you?

Michael Bennett (45:04)

I mean, it's the most important thing that I've ever done and the most satisfying thing that I've ever done. I'm so proud of my daughters, like every parent is. And I think also, Mark, the time that I spent as the school superintendent in Denver, where two of my three daughters, or actually all three, were students, has made me feel that their lives are deeply connected to the lives of other kids in my community and across the country. And then we all rise and fall together. I don't mean that politically. I mean that. And my kids feel that way themselves. You know, they have a sense that the world is much bigger than their world. They have a sense that there are a lot of people in America who struggle with things that they really have not had to struggle with, and they've struggled with things that lots of other kids struggle with. When I see the mental health epidemic that is raging across my state among young people and across the country among you young people, I think about the challenges my own kids have had, you know, throughout Covid and with the effects of social media and their poisonous algorithms. You know, like any parent, I worry about those things too. So for me, it's been a motivation of my wife. It's why I became the superintendent of schools to begin with and why I went to the senate.

Mark Halpern (46:29)

I guess so much of their growing up, you've been in really busy jobs. You've been in really busy jobs your whole professional life, really. You know, people always say to me, you'll never say on your deathbed, I wish I'd spent more time at work. So how do you as a parent justify having these busy jobs that is taking you away from the girls? And I. And I don't say that critically, I say kind of existentially because I deal with the same thing.

Michael Bennett (46:52)

It's fun. How old. How old is your kid, Mark?

Mark Halpern (46:55)

My. My boys. My boy's eight.

Michael Bennett (46:57)

Eight. Yeah. So, you know. So yours is actually the same age. Basically mine were when I came here. That is it. Every. Every year is incredible. When I thought, when my kids were first going off to college, I thought how devastating it would be to have them leave the house. And of course, what you realize is they have to go. There's not one minute that they should stay with you, and it becomes a whole other relationship. But there's not much better than having an eight year old kid. And the answer to your question on the busy jobs, it's interesting. I just had that discussion because when people, there were a couple of people that came to see me and said, we think you should run for governor this time. And my first reaction was, there is no way I can go home to my kids and explain to them, having been away 50% of their, you know, childhood in the, the Senate in D.C. that I'm now coming home after they have gone, which they are hopefully momentarily from Colorado. And they said, are you sure about that? And I checked. And Caroline, who's the oldest one of those three girls, said, are you under the illusion that we wanted to see you more than we did? From their perspective, it was great having me gone half the time. And, you know, they, they've obviously thought about that themselves and were encouraging about my running.

Mark Halpern (48:22)

I want to ask you about the party. You've ran for president previously, and you say you're running for governor in part to deal with not just the problems of your states, but the problem that you see that President Trump caused. I want to ask you about some questions that we've been asking about the party just to see what your take is, because you're thoughtful and you're honest. Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy name is, you know, synonymous with the Democratic Party. Tell the story of why Bobby Kennedy left the Democratic Party. How did that happen?

Michael Bennett (48:52)

Bobby Kennedy, the, the HHS secretary.

Mark Halpern (48:56)

Yeah. Hhs.

Michael Bennett (48:58)

Yeah. I think he, I think he, well, I think he left probably for craven reasons, which were, you know, his own. What. His own ambition. But, you know, in the end, he found himself a place in the Trump administration that's allowing him to do what he wants to do with respect to vaccines and other things, I do think that, you know, his. There are. Even though I think his vaccine denial is really dangerous. And as a former school superintendent and a parent, I really feel that way. I think the fundamental frustration with our healthcare system that Bobby Kennedy has is something that I also believe. I mean, the American people are being crushed by our healthcare system, which is in many ways the worst system in the industrialized world. And all the time when I'm home, I am meeting people who are experiencing our healthcare system on behalf of their children as an exercise in scarcity. Scarcity, Scarcity. Whether it's the mental health care that I was mentioning a minute ago, which they desperately need for their kids, or it's being stuck on a telephone fighting an insurance company to get paid, or it's taken care even of a parent who's been prescribed a drug that they can't get, you know, our families in this country are fighting against a system that. That no other country, no other parents in the industrialized world are fighting against. And I think Bobby Kennedy, you know, in some ways has called the question in this election on that. And I think he's been rewarded for that.

Mark Halpern (50:39)

Let me raise two other issues that he would say played a role in his leaving the party and see if you think those are valid and something Democrats should think about. One is that he was. He. He was. People tried to pressure he. Him to not be on the ballot, to not be able to run against Joe Biden. And the other is he was blackballed by the media at the insistence of Democrats, senior Democrats, who said, don't give him time on television. Do you think those things are meaningful things the party should think about in terms of being open and inclusive and open to outside opinions?

Michael Bennett (51:07)

Well, I think we should be open to outside opinions. I think a much more important question for the Democratic Party was whether Joe Biden should have run free election. And I don't think he should have run for reelection. I think that was a huge mistake in some sense. The original sin of the Democratic failure in this election. Not the only sin. Not the only sin, but an important one.

Mark Halpern (51:32)

Should he not have run because of mental decline or for some other reason?

Michael Bennett (51:36)

I think he shouldn't have run because I think that he had gotten to a point, I wouldn't say a mental decline, but of. Of decline that put him in a position of not being able to wage a vigorous campaign against Donald Trump. And there's no way you can beat Donald Trump unless you can wage a vigorous campaign. And he couldn't do it.

Mark Halpern (52:00)

Why wouldn't you say mental decline? Did you not see that publicly?

Michael Bennett (52:04)

I didn't see. Well, look, the first thing that I really saw, other than one visit to the White House on an immigration matter there was about, I think six weeks before this was when I saw his debate with Donald Trump. And I think I was the first Democrat to publicly say on network television that we were going to lose in a landslide if he stayed at the top of the ticket.

Mark Halpern (52:30)

But let me ask you about that, because that's a common answer. He once addressed a dead congresswoman at an event meant to honor her, as if she were there. He was sequestered from the media, talked to the media far less often, even in 2020, including 2024. I don't think you needed to see anything secret or private or that debate to see mental decline. Do you not agree with that?

Michael Bennett (52:53)

Well, I, I think that, again, I, I have not made a personal assessment, you know, at that time, certainly, of Joe Biden's mental decline. I think he was not in a position to wage a vigorous campaign against Trump, whether it was mental or physical, and we paid a heavy price for his decision to run.

Mark Halpern (53:14)

Again, ask you about one more Democrat, and then I want to talk about Colorado. What's the source, would you say, of the, of the political strength of aoc, of Congressman Cortez Agueron?

Michael Bennett (53:25)

I would say that. I would say that part of it is her origin story, which I think is really appealing to Democratic voters and American voters generally. I think that she's also a very effective communicator and politician. The fundamental point, though, I think, is that the American people want a radical transformation of the economy that's not working well for themselves or for their kids. And I think in the end, and I think that's. And I think she's with her roadshow with Bernie Sanders in some ways. That's the, that's the vision that she's appealing to. Whether or not that's a vision that can build a broad coalition of Americans that can defeat Trumpism, I think is a really open question, and I suspect that it probably can't. I think it's an important part of that coalition, but not enough to be able to defeat Trumpism in a general election.

Mark Halpern (54:25)

And same question. What's the source of political strength of Kamala Harris?

Michael Bennett (54:30)

I think that her source of political strength was providing a newness to Joe Biden's ticket. That's what I think it was.

Mark Halpern (54:39)

Well, but how about now, if she thinks about running for governor as you are, or running for president, what would you say is the source of her political strength?

Michael Bennett (54:46)

Well, I think the fact that she's well known and was on a national ticket would be the source of her political strength.

Mark Halpern (54:53)

Okay. You've talked about a lot about running for economic opportunity, and they're building blocks of that. And I want to ask you about some of them. Your state's had Democratic governors for a while, and I'll just say it's a little confusing to me. You've praised the governors, the current governor, Jared Polis, who's a Democrat, but said the state is in crisis and has a lot of work to do. So I wanted you to be as specific as you can on housing, something you've talked about and of course, comes up all the time with your constituents. What specifically can a governor of Colorado working with the legislature do about housing that the current governor hasn't done.

Michael Bennett (55:29)

I think it's not just working with the legislature, but working with county commissioners all over the state of Colorado, many of whom have, you know, something relevant to say, and working with the private sector. We're going to have to work in a collaborative process to make housing cheaper, to make it more available and want to be able to build it faster. I don't criticize Jared Polis, our governor, on that. I think he has made some incremental efforts that have been important on housing, but it's not enough to deal with what we're, what we're faced with. You mentioned the word crisis. I mean, I would say where we are in the state is that there is not a county in my state. There's not a neighborhood where people feel like their kids are going to be able to live in the neighborhood that they live in. They're going to be able to afford to live, afford to have a house in the neighborhood they're in. That is the economic pressure, I think, that has created the chance for Donald Trump to win election twice in this country. And if we don't solve for that, this country is going to continue to elect people who, as Trump said, we don't need a democracy. I alone can fix it. You should expect your public sector and your private sector to be totally corrupt and totally bankrupt. That is a very natural thing for someone to run on in a world where people have lost a sense of economic opportunity for themselves and their families. I think we've got to work together to figure out how to give the American people hope that their children can prosper in this country, or in my case, in the state of Colorado, that they can actually live there?

Mark Halpern (57:12)

Is there a specific Michael Bennett idea on housing in Colorado that you can share that other states, maybe the federal government might look to and say, well, that's a good idea to create housing.

Michael Bennett (57:20)

I think that if you take what I just said in terms of objectives, let's build it more cheaply, let's build it faster, and let's build more of it, and let's do it with a serious collaboration among every level of government that is aligned with each other and in partnership with the private sector. I don't think we've seen that in any country, in any state in America yet. Same thing with education we don't have. There is not a state in this country where people can say, you know what, that's a place where you can send your kid to school and propel them into the American economy. That does not exist. Out of 50 states, I hope to make Colorado the first one.

Mark Halpern (58:03)

Okay, same question about transportation and traffic. Again, a huge issue in your state, as it is in every other. What's a Michael Bennett idea to reduce traffic congestion?

Michael Bennett (58:12)

I think it's creating more density in our housing and supporting the efforts that we've already made to try to build more transit in the state and to make it more efficient. We have a regional transportation authority called RTD that I think needs. Could use. Could use the governor's help, let's put it that way, to be more effective and more efficient.

Mark Halpern (58:39)

Okay, here's. As I mentioned, you did run for president in 2020.

Michael Bennett (58:44)

I know. I appreciate the fact that you remember that and not do anything new.

Mark Halpern (58:47)

I remember it distinctly. Here's a clip from a video you made announcing your candidacy. 102, please.

Michael Bennett (58:54)

In politics, they try to label you. Okay. Call me an idealist, a pragmatic idealist. You can't fix a broken Washington if you don't level with the American people. It's time for a new era of progress to reform our political system.

Mark Halpern (59:10)

All right. Very uplifting. I get asked all the time, who are the three most likely Democratic presidential nominees in 2028? And I say, you on the list. And people say I'm crazy because either they've not heard of you or they think you're boring, which I know you hear all the time. You're not boring. Should I stop including you on the list?

Michael Bennett (59:28)

You know, you should stop including me on the list. I'm going home to Colorado for a reason. I think we need a place that can answer the questions that I was just talking about. And I'm looking forward to leaning in with the folks there to be able to be able to say, this is the best state in America to raise a kid and we need it, Mark. We have got to find our way to a place that's better than just chaos and more chaos.

Mark Halpern (59:57)

So if you're not running, tell me of people who might run. Who's doing things that you find interesting and encouraging.

Michael Bennett (60:02)

I can't. I. You know what? I don't have a name on that list. Honestly, I think we're going to have to have people go through. To the. Go through the grueling competition of, of winning this nomination. I suspect that the person who wins would be somebody that we won't even come up with today. You might. You might come up with them, but I'm not smart enough to.

Mark Halpern (60:25)

Is J.D. vance, is he formidable as a presidential candidate?

Michael Bennett (60:28)

I think he would be formidable as presidential candidate.

Mark Halpern (60:31)

Why?

Michael Bennett (60:32)

Because I think he has the theory of the case that is the response, a response to the economic dislocation that people feel. You know, I don't think it's the only one. I think that. I think Donald Trump's response, the economic dislocation, in the end, is going to be really bad for the American people and really bad for the prospects of this country. What we need is a Democratic Party that has a vision for how to make this country better for our children. And if we, as we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, and if we are able to do that, it's not just that the Democrats will succeed, which is interesting to me, but not compelling, it's that our country can succeed and the kind of stuff that we're squandering right now in terms of our leadership in the world, in terms of the running an education system where the kids today are actually, their reading scores are worse today than they were 20 years ago, a health care system that is creating nothing but headwinds for the American people and for American business. We could do a hell of a lot better than that, Mark. And that's the world we're living in today. In part because the Democratic Party was repudiated, because it could not figure out how to compete with the economic message that Trump and J.D. vance were articulating.

Mark Halpern (61:58)

Is. Is Trump's winning twice a mystery to you, or do you think you totally understand it?

Michael Bennett (62:01)

I totally understand it. There's nothing mysterious about it.

Mark Halpern (62:05)

Explain. Explain how he won twice.

Michael Bennett (62:07)

The way he won is by is. Is through the economic unhappiness of the American people. Look at the polling at the beginning and the end of his election, and you'll see that 70% of the American people say we need a radical change in the economy, and he was the one providing that, not the Democratic Party. I also think, as I said earlier, that there is a place where people feel that lack of opportunity and somebody, a strong man, shows up and says, you don't need the democracy. Follow me. I will lead you to a place where you're going to be able to support your family, even if it doesn't feel all that plausible, even though if it doesn't, if there's stuff that rings hollow about it, the idea that there's somebody there that wants to basically rain chaos on our institutions and bust stuff up becomes appealing. And that is what Trump. That's a playbook that he ran twice. And the second time, which was even more obvious than the first time he had four years to prepare for an election that he knew he was going to win for that basically at least half of that time. And we're seeing the fruits of that now, which is why it's not okay if you start to see a Democratic Party that's saying, well, it's just that Joe Biden was too old. It's just that Joe Biden shouldn't have run. It's not at a party that's actually saying, how could we have possibly lost to this candidate who, among other things, stripped away a woman's right to choose in between, you know, in his first election, and we still lost him his second election. I would have thought that would have disqualified him out of 330 million Americans. And yet he not only came back, he won more decisively than he did the first time with a broader coalition of Americans than he won with the first time.

Mark Halpern (64:02)

Last quick question and quick answer. What's the most genuinely appealing thing about Donald Trump to you?

Michael Bennett (64:10)

Actually, I think that it's the way. I hate to say this, but, I hate to say this, but the joy he takes in trolling the Democratic Party, you know, it's like, it is like Lucy in the football with him. And, and, and it's, and it's, and we, we gotta stop, we gotta stop showing up with the football in a way that Donald Trump, you know, it can, can have the result that, that he has day after day after day. I think he's doing it basically a terrible job. You know, he is destroying small businesses because of the tariff war he, he's put on. He's got now his latest drug, you know, company stuff that to me seems totally fake when the American people actually need us desperately to address this drug crisis. He's got a reconciliation bill that I think in the end is, is not going to support working people in America. Well, and it is going to absolutely destroy any remnant of fiscal, you know, balance that we have as a nation. That's not a. And he's alienated our allies and, and, and created a go it alone strategy for America. I mean, I, all of that stuff is, is, is, it is much worse than we should be expecting out of an American president, much less than we should be expecting from an American president. And yet we're getting it because the Democratic Party has twice failed to beat this media star from New York City. And that's not his fault. I blame him for many, many things, including for the fact that he's got no theory on education or healthcare or how to build an economy that works well for everybody. I blame him for many things, but getting elected is not one of them.

Mark Halpern (66:06)

Senator, I look forward to seeing your gubernatorial race and also welcoming you to becoming a grandpa, which could happen. Who knows.

Michael Bennett (66:14)

Let's hope that doesn't happen too soon.

Mark Halpern (66:16)

To you during your term. I'm very grateful to you for making time. Thank you, Mark, and look forward to.

Michael Bennett (66:21)

Following you in a new endeavor.

Mark Halpern (66:23)

Thanks again. Our thanks to Senator Michael Bennett and thanks to you for being part of NextUp. This program appears every Tuesday and Thursday. You can watch it on YouTube, please like and subscribe there. It also is as a podcast wherever you get your podcast. Some of you like Apple, some of you like Spotify, some some other platforms. But I urge you to listen.

Michael Bennett (66:41)

Please.

Mark Halpern (66:41)

And again, like and subscribe. Tell your friends, your neighbors, tell all your enemies, too. We're a new program and we're very grateful to you for watching and for listening. I'm Mark Halpern. We'll see you Thursday on Next up.