← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Blaming Trump After Butler Backfired, Shooter’s Missing Motive, Plus Epstein and Other Conspiracies
01:16:40
Mark Halperin kicks off today’s show with a hard look at the political and media fallout still unfolding as the one-year anniversary of the Trump assassination attempt draws near. In his reported monologue, Mark dissects how key Democrats and corporate media figures blamed Trump for the attempt on his own life—and how that narrative helped ignite the media credibility crisis now reaching a breaking point. And one year later, a central question remains: Who was the would-be assassin, and why do we still know almost nothing about him? Journalist Salena Zito joins Mark to discuss her explosive new book, “Butler: The Untold Story of the Near Assassination Attempt of Donald Trump and the Fight for America’s Heartland.” She recounts the moment the shots rang out in front of her, the chaos that followed, and how one small town became the unlikely epicenter of a national political shift. Plus, Emily Jashinsky and Dan Turrentine on Elon Musk’s third-party playbook, the media’s quiet...
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- [00:00]
Mark Calperin
In the summer, all of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play. Hey, welcome back. It's next up. I'm Mark Calperin. Did you miss me? I missed you. We were off for a week for summer break, but now we are back ready to roll and rock with you and our great guest for today, as well as my reported monologue on the attempted assassination of President Trump. Glad for you to be part of nextup. Appreciate you being here, like subscribe, etc. Etc. Be part of this community, which we're still in the process of naming. We'll get to that later. Grateful to you for stay staying with us throughout the summer. I am the editor in chief of the two Way Live platform and the host of this program here on the MK Media Network and couldn't be happier to have our guest today join us. A couple of folks will join us in the next segment. Emily Jashinsky, the host of After Party with Emily Jashinsky here on the MK Media Network, Megyn Kelly's great new network growing fast and in turn, time, my colleague on two Way. He's part of both the morning meeting and a group chat there. They'll talk to us about everything going on in the news, including what is going on with Elon Musk and what is going on with the investigation or no investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. They'll be here. And then a little later, we'll be joined by really one of the most extraordinary reporters I've known in my career. Selena Zito is the author of the new book the Untold Story of the Near Assassination of Donald Trump and the Fight for America's Heartland. She has long been recognized as one of the best chroniclers of not just Donald Trump, but but of the Trump movement. And she has home court advantage. She lives in Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania has, I think, been for the full 10 years of Trump on the national stage, been central to understanding the MAGA movement and why Donald Trump went 2 for 3 in his presidential elections. All of that coming up. But first, here is what I think is important to think about and it relates to Selena's book. She writes about the attempted assassination of the president. The larger meeting she had, to great fortune, if you want to call it that, to be with the president that day, and she'll talk to us about that. But I continue to be struck by the reality of using the How Americans view the attempted assassination of President Trump up just about a year ago seems longer because so much has happened. I view that as incredible prism to try to understand how the red and blue America view Donald Trump and view his role in our lives. Okay. What an extraordinary thing for not just a former president out on the campaign trail on the eve of his convention. What an extraordinary thing for someone to attempt to assassinate that person. But he wasn't just a former president. Again, he was the front runner for the presidency and he is the dominant figure in our culture. I hear regularly from even people who do not like Donald Trump, the reality he no one in our lifetime has dominated America and really the world the way Donald Trump does politically, culturally, symbolically and in terms of emotion. And to have that person nearly killed. And of course, that day, other people were grievously wounded. One Corey Tor lost his life, but Donald Trump almost lost his life. And the thing that I want to emphasize to you, nearly a year to reflect upon this and visible to close observers in real time, was that the left, the people who do not like Donald Trump, who disagree with him on policy, who wish he weren't president, they did not treat his attempted assassination the way they would have had that been Barack Obama or Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or Bill Clinton. They really tried to dismiss it. And the reasons for that are quite something and they're quite it's one of the best ways to understand what we're going through still as a country, as people adjust to being either in the category of glad Donald Trump's president or very unhappy about it. This to some extent, it's understandable in the way our news cycle works, why people moved on, in some cases so quickly from Donald Trump's assassination happened on the eve of his convention and all the things that brought, including a few days later, his selection of his running mate Bance. And of course, shortly after that, Joe Biden got out of the race. It's eight days after Donald Trump was shot in, in Pennsylvania, Joe Biden dropped out. And that obviously was a big news story, too. But how remarkable, how remarkable that a former president, the front runner for the nomination, is shot and almost killed. And both at the time and to this day, the motive of the killer, Thomas Crooks, you may not even recognize his name because he's been so little scrutinized. The motives of Thomas Crooks are still unknown. Can you imagine that someone tries to kill the president, former president, front runner, and between the government and the media, it is an absolute mystery. I've read nearly everything I can get my hands on to try to understand why the guy tried to kill Donald Trump. It's an absolute mystery. What an incredible story. And what is not a mystery, though, is how seminal this moment was and still is for, I think, two reasons. First, think people who don't understand the support Donald Trump has don't recognize the degree to which MAGA rallied around Donald Trump. And many others did as well. Not just maga, of course. The most famous convert, based on the heroism and grit that Donald Trump showed that day in Butler was Elon Musk, who went from basically being kind of leaning Democrat, sort of vaguely supportive of Donald Trump sometimes, to being a full on supporter. And so many people, and I heard this in Milwaukee at the convention, and I've heard it every day since practically, that Donald Trump himself believes that it was divine intervention that saved him that day and that the people who support Donald Trump and saw his grit and heroism and determination that day, many of them also say, well, there's something had to be going on there, that he chose to turn in a way he normally wouldn't, that he brought up this chart, this famous immigration chart, which he normally did not bring up at that part of his presentation, and that he turned to it. This was all extraordinary. And the hummingbird wings thing, I mean, somehow he lived that day. And so one thing to understand, if you don't feel it yourself, you should know that tens of millions of Americans feel that this was a rallying moment for many, a divine inspiration for many, a determination that Donald Trump was the right person to be president, even if they'd been wavering before, like Elon Musk, extraordinary in that respect. Also not a mystery, and something that's far less uplifting is what that moment said then and says now about our individuals and institutions that have for a decade been hostile to Donald Trump and to the movement he leads. Okay, if you see that group, that second group, through the prism of the shooting, the way this was covered both at the time and to this day, it's a story about corporate media and their hostility to Donald Trump and their loss of credibility in the eyes of people again, including people who weren't supporters of Donald Trump. But it's the story also about the institutions we talk about here so often, the liberally leaning institutions in media, corporate America, universities and colleges, nonprofits, all of these places that have always opposed Donald Trump, oppose him now, and who have lost credibility in part not because everyone in red America expects 100% support for Donald Trump, because they don't seem to appreciate what Donald Trump means to those who do support him. It's an extraordinary thing. And this, this failure to cover Butler in real time and going forward as, as they would have and should have had it been a Democrat. That's not just some sort of minor misstep. It wasn't a short term failure of judgment or getting the tone wrong on live tv. It really is about a feeling about MAGA and about why so many Americans turned to Donald Trump in 2016 and then in 2024 because they didn't like the direction of the country. Okay. Just as we saw with the Biden acuity issue, just as we saw with the Russiagate investigation. You don't see retractions, you don't see accountability, you don't see self reflection. What you see is a press corps representing the liberal establishment of the country, which is overwhelmingly knew they had to cover this event. But in the immediate, even in the, immediately afterwards, the immediate aftermath of the attempted assassination, already turning to say, without knowing the motive of the killer, which we still don't know, that this was Donald Trump's fault. I could show you a lot of examples for it, laying some of the blame, at least on the President himself for being shot. Something that I don't think you would have seen had Barack Obama been shot. Here is for instance, Martha Raddatz, my former colleague at ABC News, talking in the immediate aftermath of the attempted assassination about where she thought the accountability was to be found. President Trump and his supporters have, have contributed to this violent rhetoric as well.
- [09:43]
Emily Jashinski
Well, absolutely, George.
- [09:45]
Mark Calperin
We were just looking back this morning at some of the things that former President Trump has said.
- [09:50]
Selena Zito
He warned last March of potential death.
- [09:52]
Dan Tarantine
And destruction if he were charged by.
- [09:54]
Selena Zito
The Manhattan District Attorney.
- [09:56]
Mark Calperin
Our country is being destroyed, as they.
- [09:58]
Selena Zito
Tell us, to be peaceful.
- [10:00]
Dan Tarantine
Trump in January warned of bedlam in.
- [10:02]
Selena Zito
The country if the criminal charges against him succeeded.
- [10:05]
Mark Calperin
And of course, in March, he said, now if I don't get elected, it's going to be a bloodbath for the whole.
- [10:11]
Selena Zito
That's going to be the least of it. It's going to be a bloodbath for the country.
- [10:14]
Mark Calperin
That will be the least of it. He said he was partly joking and.
- [10:18]
Dan Tarantine
That that was taken out of context.
- [10:20]
Selena Zito
But those are indeed his words.
- [10:22]
Mark Calperin
Now, of course, that bloodbath thing was about the auto industry and is something that's on the greatest hits of the press. Just willfully, it would appear misleading, making misleading characterizations of what Donald Trump said. But leaving that aside, there's no doubt Donald Trump has said a lot of things that have divided the country. There's no doubt that, that he's partly responsible for, and some would say greatly responsible for the tone that's existed in American politics. But the mentality in the immediate aftermath of the near murder of the former president and leading presidential candidate to turn to fly spanking his statements, rather than the many, many statements of Democrats hostile to Donald Trump is quite something. Here's Margaret Brennan, who also like Martha Raddatz, hosts a Sunday show on one of the major broadcast networks. Margaret Brennan of cbs, right along the same lines.
- [11:18]
Selena Zito
Taken it right to where Democrats are trying to prevent it from going useless. Those words have extreme weight. But if just to separate topic very much related, the language around this campaign has been about us versus the system, me versus them, that all the legal cases against Donald Trump, he claims, are politically motivated to prevent him from reelection. By alleging that there is a connection to this attempt on his life, it would escalate that.
- [11:52]
Mark Calperin
I mean, again, I'm all for the press scrutinizing things, and I'm all for the press scrutinizing Donald Trump. But you see in the immediate aftermath of the near death of Donald Trump, people wanting to hold him accountable for his own near murder. It's kind of incredible. And, and I'll say again, we don't, you don't know the motive after we see any shooting, whether it's an extraordinary moment like this or a mass shooting, people always want to jump to conclusions about the motive of the killer, the alleged killer. I remember after the Oklahoma City bombing, not a shooting, but a bombing, mass speculation in the media that it was some sort of terrorist act by a foreign terrorist, perhaps an Islamic terrorist. And of course, it turned out to be homegrown Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted for the crime. You can't jump to conclusions in this case in the absence of any sense of why the shooter did what he did, again, which sustains to this day to jump to the conclusion that what contributed to the shooting was Donald Trump's own words. A lot of Americans look at that and say, this is why the press has lost so much credibility, why their credibility has plummeted so far. So we went into the convention and the media covered his Speech and everything else almost entirely separate from the fact that he was shot, except to make fun of the fact that he was wearing a bandage on his ear and to engage in a lot of speculation about whether or not he actually was shot. Okay, now again, I'm all for scrutiny. There were things about that day that were a little odd. I acknowledge being confused by the reaction of the crowd to the shooting. It didn't seem organic to me. But here is Michael Steele, former Republican National Committee chairman and someone who long before this had turned against his party and Donald Trump. Here he is on MSNBC speculating about whether Donald Trump was in fact actually shot. Let's start with last night in the band aid. That's fine where I am at this point. Point is it's been three days, going on four since this horrific event occurred. A person lost their life, two have been severely injured. And yet we've not received a medical report from the hospital, nor have we received a medical report from the campaign or from the Trump Organization about the extent of the damage to his ear. If he was shot by a high caliber bullet, there should probably be very little ear there. And so we'd like to know that. Is there cause I surgery involved? What is the prognosis for recovery? Were there stitches? What, what is the extent and nature of the damage to his ear? Was it caused by a bullet? As opposed to some reports from those on the scene, other reporters saying that it was actually shards of glass from the teleprompter itself, not the bullet. So there are a lot of questions around that Earth. There are a lot of questions around that here. You know, there's conspiracy theorists on the right and, and conspiracy theories on the left, and you're not going to stamp them out. But I say again, this was like a week after he'd been shot and the doctors had spoken out and explained what had happened and the forensics were done and the weapon was, was found that shot him. And yet if you heard all this skepticism from the left. Okay, now I'll say again, instructive for two reasons. One, to see people rallying around Donald Trump, not just in maga, but, but a lot of independents, some Democrats, too. So instructive though, to say, here's the guy who was shot and we're going to demonize him, we're going to challenge him. We're not going to have this be in the moment of national unity, a moment of national relief. You didn't sense a lot of relief in the, in my colleagues in the press corps over Donald Trump living right before he was shot. The, the, the New Republic had a cover, okay? And not for the first time did the media compare Donald Trump to Hitler. We'll put it up. If you're listening to the program as a podcast, you won't see it, but basically it's using, I don't know if it's AI or some other sort of technique, but it's basically merging the faces of Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler. And the headline for the New Republic is American Fascism. Okay? That's on the eve of his being shot. And so if you're wondering what motivated the guy, maybe we'll never know, but certainly it's possible that what motivated him was things like that. And, and, and the great divide for Donald Trump. There's so many ways to describe it, but the great divide for me is between those who love him or appreciate him and see him as, or see him as a necessary vessel for changing the country, and those who think he's Hitler, those who think that everything he does is beyond the pale. They can't find anything good to say about what he's done. Maybe you can get them to reluctantly praise the Abraham Accords, but for the most part they are negative about him. And that negativity is not just in the media and as reflected in the coverage of the assassination. That negativity exists about MAGA and about, and it comes from, as I said, universities, corporations, nonprofit organizations, the Democratic establishment and all the press. I got a note this week from a friend of mine. Scott lives in Minnesota and like Selena, he gets it. He gets why America has twice now elected Donald Trump and allowed him to win the popular vote after being president for four years. And again, I remember it so well in 2021, 2022, my Democratic friends and people in the media saying, well, Trump will never win because he didn't win the popular vote in 2016. He barely won the electoral college. And his four year presidency showed everybody conclusively he should not be president. Well, he did win and he won the popular vote, as you know. And he did it, I think, for many people, talk to him every day, who, unlike the pure MAGA faithful who love Trump in every way, who don't particularly like Trump, and in fact could speak like Michael Steele or, or any, anybody in the media about why they don't like him, but they think he's necessary. So my friend Scott wrote me this letter. I want to read it to you. I'll read almost all of it because I think it's so powerful. Scott said this Trump is winning because he leads a movement. As you've pointed out time and again, the appetite for substantive reversal of old order and overreach is akin to a starving man at the Bellagio buffet. For years, the Obama plus left indulged in social pandering to the marginalized. So much so they didn't just ignore the normal many, they actively attack them, denigrating it as if somehow they were wrong and morally corrupt. This is called cancer. When a small cluster of cells invade and overcome the larger healthy host. Progressives did nothing to arrest this malignancy as it metastasized from the academy to our corporations, media and other commanding heights. Trump represents the immuno response of the normal healthy cells of our polity, the white blood cells. Reversing this we become so accustomed to the ascendancy and triumph of the marginal that to feel the swing back toward the majority of us, the proper base set point, feels cruel and abnormal. It is as sickening as chemotherapy on any cancer. Your hair falls out, you vomit. It feels abnormal to arrest and reverse the malignancy that has become our unsustainable new normal. But Scott writes, we cannot continue this social descendants, the progressive glorification of the marginal, without simultaneously investing in strengthening the rest of us. That is why Trump wins all the time. We the normal, we the boring, we the backbone muscle and love of this American project, reject progressive determination to end us, to diminish us, to atomize us into a thousand itty bitty cultural and identity components. The factories of this cancer. Harvard, the New York Times, et cetera, must be irradiated to end it. We cannot stop this till cancer is gone. This is why Trump wins. He leads the unstoppable momentum of the vast sea of normal people against the forces that would cripple us. We don't have to accept this fate from the left and with Trump, we see that we don't have to. All it takes is fearless leadership, Scott writes in conclusion, I'll take the built in corruption and breaking of norms in exchange for it just as surely as I'd sacrifice my hair and accept the nausea if I knew it's what it would take to survive cancer. That to me is what Butler was about. For the people who voted for Donald Trump, they almost lost the only person, the only person they saw as capable of stopping the long term trends in this country that they found to be not just negative or political, but fundamental to the identity of the nation. And when Donald Trump survived and when he raised his hand in triumph, and when he went on to become the Republican nominee, pick JD Vance and beat Kamala Harris in the general election. For many people who voted for him, it was essential, as essential as his survival that day in Butler. To have the one person as flawed as he is in the minds of tens of millions who voted for him survive and fight is what they felt had to happen. And for many, it was divine intervention that it was allowed to happen. Who knows what history would have been like had Donald Trump died that day in Butler, as barring a bunch of freak, freakish steps, he would have died. Who knows what would have happened to the nomination, to the Republican Party, to the general election? Who knows? But what we do know is that his living showed us, in as sharp relief as we've seen in the 10 years of Trump, the division between those who see either a great man or a necessary vehicle and those who believe that he should never be anywhere near the Oval Office. He is now. He's alive. We still don't know the motive of the assassin, but we do know that that day in all likelihood, changed the course of American history. Could Trump have won without Butler? Maybe. But ironically, what allowed him to have, I think, at least an easier path to victory was the inspiration he caused to his supporters and the backlash caused by the media's failure to cover the story fairly that inspired so many people like Scott to say the jig is up. Trump is our vehicle. Let's go forward with him, and that's why he's back in the White House for these four years. All right, in just a moment, we'll be joined by two of my faves, Emily Jaszynski, host of the After Party, and Dan Tarantine of Two Ways. They're coming up right after this. We all know it. The American Dream. It's fundamentally changed. You can forget the white picket fence in front of your house. For most Americans, the real dream now is getting out of debt. If you're feeling the pressure from rising prices, mounting credit card debt, and just trying to stay afloat, I want you to know there is a way out. Done with debt. They have just one goal. Break you free from debt permanently. They're not pushing loans or bankruptcy. Instead, their tough negotiators go straight to your creditors, slashing what you owe, wiping out the interest, and eliminating penalties. And they don't stop until your debt is gone. The best part of all this, most clients see more money in their pocket in the very first month. You've worked too hard to let debt steal your future with. Done with debt. Your dream of Being debt free is actually possible. Visit donewithdeb.com talk with one of their experts. It's completely free. Some of their solutions are time sensitive, though, so don't wait. Go to donewithdet.com again right now. Go to donewithdebt.com all right, next up, they're known as the Sunny and share of modern political commentary. I speak, of course, of our next guest. Next up, Emily Jashinski, host of After Party on MK Media, the Megyn Kelly network that's growing like Topsy. And my two way colleague Dan Turnhyne, star and stage and screen. Plus the morning meeting and the group chat. Welcome to you both.
- [24:29]
Emily Jashinski
Thanks for having us.
- [24:30]
Mark Calperin
Mark, Emily, I got an email from one of my viewers about you when they saw you were coming on. Here's what they wrote. I'm a fan and have been for some years. She has great talent as a journalist and I believe she has a great future. Great future. I'm going to write the guy back and say, Bob, what about the present?
- [24:51]
Dan Tarantine
That's very nice, Bob. I, I don't know Bob. I promise I'm not Bob. I did not send that to you, Mark.
- [24:57]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, no, I know Bob. I don't remember met Bob, but that's pretty nice. And Dan, of course. All I do is get compliments. I feel like a proud Jewish mother. Dan is so great. They tell me, what's, what would you say? I'll ask Emily this. Emily, when people say to me, dan's so great, what should my stock response be?
- [25:16]
Dan Tarantine
Your response should be, you're welcome.
- [25:19]
Mark Calperin
You're welcome.
- [25:20]
Emily Jashinski
If only you knew him.
- [25:21]
Mark Calperin
Exactly. Dan, Dan, acknowledge Just, just, just facts. You know, I am, I am your, I am your Hollywood agent. I am your Cecil D. DeMille, whatever it is, right? I found you sitting at a soda fountain on the Upper west side and I said, I'm gonna make you a star.
- [25:39]
Emily Jashinski
That's it. I owe everything to the cup of coffee that you and I had. So I, I will never get used to anyone saying that I'm good at this because I look at people like yourself and think, I got a long way to go, Dancer.
- [25:52]
Mark Calperin
Great. And Emily, you should. Emily, are you a runner? Do you like to run?
- [25:55]
Dan Tarantine
No, I hate working out.
- [25:56]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. All right, so, so get one of those rickshaw drivers and follow, follow Dan when he goes on his run through Central Park.
- [26:04]
Emily Jashinski
He might have an electric bike.
- [26:06]
Mark Calperin
He might. Or an electric bike.
- [26:07]
Dan Tarantine
I do have an electric bike.
- [26:08]
Mark Calperin
Okay. Ride your electric bike slow behind it because it is like going for a run with Like Sean Cassidy during the Partridge Family heyday. People are just like, Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan. It's, it's emotional.
- [26:22]
Dan Tarantine
The Partridge Family.
- [26:23]
Mark Calperin
I mean, I'm doing, I'm trying to do references, Emily, that you'll need to Google. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm going. All right, let's talk about Elon Musk and the notion of a third party. Political pros think this is far fetched. Third parties don't work. Musk won't stick to it. He's under pressure to go back to his businesses. Dan, tell me how this could work. What would it be like if it did work?
- [26:47]
Emily Jashinski
Well, I think the first thing is you got to walk before you run. I mean, he's not going to launch this party and suddenly win 218 House seats and 50 Senate seats and 270 electoral votes. I think he's got to figure out who is the constituency that he's trying to appeal to on what issues is he going to run on? And then are there, let's say four or five House seats that he could potentially be very competitive in? Pick up a couple. I mean, think about it. In the House, you pick up five seats, you're suddenly the kingmaker. Who would you want to align with? I mean, I think if you start small, he could potentially try to put some points on the board. The problem is Donald Trump really is the current third party. I mean, he is the ultimate disruptor who has changed our politics. So, so what issues are, is he totally wrong on that there is a majority in a congressional district or somewhere that will align with Elon Musk?
- [27:46]
Mark Calperin
Emily, when I think Elon Musk, I think start small, that's what he typically does. I mean, is this, is this like, what's the most real version of this, you see?
- [27:55]
Dan Tarantine
Well, yeah, I think Dan's point about starting in a House race is like to the extent we can see this being plausible in the near term, a smart path forward for Elon Musk. But I doubt that's how Elon Musk is going to, going to look at it. That you would basically seed a bunch of Thomas Massie's all over the country with some really precise and targeted donations and recruitment strategies. I just don't think that's what Elon Musk is looking for. It's not impossible. But if we're talking about third party presidential race, because immediately everyone has been comparing Elon Musk to Ross Perot. That's everywhere. Since America Party has been conceived and announced, then I mean, Donald Trump sort Of is he sort of created a third party within the Republican Party. I mean, that's how split the Republican Party was until the last couple of years over Donald Trump. I mean, really until maybe 2020. Ish. Ron DeSantis, maybe even you could go 2024 when DeSantis and Trump were jockeying. Everyone is around Donald Trump now and he's the kind of ultimate third party candidate. He just happened to actually execute a hostile takeover of one of the two major. So I really don't know what room there is for the old Republican Party, which is what Musk's America Party sounds like to me. It sounds like the sort of Tea Party era ideal of what the Republican Party would be.
- [29:21]
Mark Calperin
But what is, what is that like if. If, if Musk has a vision? He seems to care a lot about deficit reduction. Yeah, that's. So did Perot. Right? That was Perot's big issue. But it's also being an outsider. Right? And the problem right now is most of the stars of the Democratic Party are outsiders. And obviously Trump defines his version of the Republican Party by being an outsider. So a third party, historically, when people think about it, and Perot with 20% of the vote, 19% of the vote, embodied. This is. You're running against Washington, right? You're running as changed. The status quo. That's what both major parties are now. They're about changing the status quo. So is it possible that the path to success is not that, but is about the opposite of that, saying we're the solid, stable, unifying party as opposed to the extreme outsiders? Is that possible or. That doesn't make any sense with a third party. Have at it, you two. Leave me out of it.
- [30:20]
Emily Jashinski
I mean, I think the issue is the three big things that he's commented on. And by commenting, I mean tweeting is really free trade, where he was kind of aghast at Liberation Day and wants to sell Teslas in Europe on the budget, but he's never really talked about what. And Doge has had all sorts of issues. And the third is on immigration where he wants high skilled workers. He thinks some of this is insanity. So what's the caucus? Who are you trying to appeal to? I mean, because Musk has never been an inside kind of stabilizing force, Right? He's the ultimate disruptor. He's always coming from the outside kind of. Emily, you joked about it. Big, bold change. And Mark, what you're talking about is like the opposite. It's stabilizing, calm, middle of the road.
- [31:13]
Mark Calperin
Just to be Clear. I didn't really mean the question. It was absurd on the face of it. I knew when I asked Emily, I believe, having looked at this pretty closely, that you're never going to build a third party incrementally. And I think Dan's right, kind of on the logic of it. But the only way to build a third party in America is, is have. Is have the luck of two major party presidential nominees who are clownish and unappealing and then some super appealing candidate for president. Now, Musk himself is neither American citizen, neither born in America, nor super appealing to many. Do you see someone out there? If you could pick the candidate? And I don't want to hear about the rock. And I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear about Beyonce. Like, who's out there, if anybody, who could be Musk's candidate for 28.
- [32:02]
Dan Tarantine
I mean, it's rare that somebody goes from the House to the top of a presidential ticket. But the most prominent politician associated with Musk ism right now is Thomas Massie. And I think if Musk had his druthers, he would probably be elevating Thomas Massie. I don't know if that's to a Senate seat, to a gubernatorial campaign, or straight to the presidency, but that's how I think Musk. That's. That's how different what Musk thinks he's doing is from everything else, which is he. He talks about the unit party. I think all of us agree that Republicans and Democrats have, have spent the last couple of decades spending too much. Like that's the way they spend their time is spending. I think everyone pretty much agrees with that. But his path out of the status quo is, is basically just Thomas Massey at this point. So I don't see anything. I mean, I think your point is correct that when you have this perfect storm of, let's say a Trump and a Clinton, there is a room for third party. Significant third party spoiler activity. But is it going to be from a Musk party? I doubt it.
- [33:09]
Mark Calperin
I think all three of us have better chance of getting elected president than Thomas Massie. Just FYI, that's a compliment to Thomas Massey, maybe. All right, let's talk about, let's talk about this Conspiracy theories in America. A quick quiz to establish your credibility as conspiracy theorists. Emily, did the Wuhan virus come from a. A bat in a wet. In a wet market or from a Chinese lab?
- [33:35]
Dan Tarantine
It came from a Chinese American lab market.
- [33:39]
Mark Calperin
The Fauci Institute. Dan Unfortunately, Dan, that in a, in a, in a wet market or a lab?
- [33:46]
Emily Jashinski
I think a lab.
- [33:47]
Mark Calperin
Okay. Did Oswald act alone? Emily?
- [33:50]
Dan Tarantine
No.
- [33:51]
Mark Calperin
Dan? No. No. You guys have good bona fetis on this one. All right, all right. Last, last, last test one. Before we get to the main, the main event, are Travis and Taylor a real couple or just a PR creation?
- [34:07]
Dan Tarantine
They're a real couple.
- [34:08]
Emily Jashinski
Oh, yeah.
- [34:08]
Dan Tarantine
That's even more interesting, I think, than the PR creation.
- [34:11]
Mark Calperin
Dan, you both think they're real couples. All right, you both went three for three. Congratulations. Now here we go, the acid test and what's much in the news. Emily, did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself?
- [34:26]
Dan Tarantine
So Jeffrey Epstein may have killed himself, but that doesn't preclude or, that doesn't. That's not mutually exclusive with the idea that there's a broader conspiracy that's being covered up. I doubt that he killed himself, but.
- [34:36]
Mark Calperin
I don't think it's mutually exclusive with the conspiracy to cover up the other people who committed crimes around him. That's where you're referring to. Right, Right. Okay. Dan, did he kill himself?
- [34:46]
Emily Jashinski
I. I don't believe he did.
- [34:48]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. No. You guys are, you guys are nutsy, cuckoo conspiracy theorists. Love it. Love having 2025 open, open minded guests on. Okay, so let's say, let's say for the sake of argument that the FBI director and his deputy, who previously were strong proponents of the notion that there was something rotten in the state of Jeffrey Epstein, but now are the leading validators of the notion that he committed suicide and there's no cover up around it. Let's assume that it is a cover up. Emily, who will expose it? How will it be exposed? If this is just a big deep state lie, how will it be exposed? Would be by the press, Will it be by a whistleblower? How will it be exposed?
- [35:30]
Dan Tarantine
I mean, I think really similar to what we've seen over several decades of the Kennedy case, which is that you get these trickles of testimonies from people with knowledge that go into media reports bubbling up a few times a year. And the public is left to sort of put the puzzle together from the outside as these disclosures leak into public view. Whether media reports are just from first person testimonies. And that's already what's happened over the course of the last six or so years with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, whether it's Alex Acosta or Vicky Ward's great reporting that she's had four sources on the record saying that Epstein was. He belonged to Intelligence, which is also what Alex Acosta said on the record. So just putting these puzzle pieces together, I think is probably the best the public is. Is ever going to get on the story.
- [36:14]
Mark Calperin
Dan, how will it be exposed if you guys are right, that there's more to it?
- [36:17]
Emily Jashinski
Yeah, I think given the number of people who are alleged to have been involved with him, I mean, look, he traded in the powerful. I mean, he collected friends who had lots and lots of money, and it sounds like provided women to then extract business relationships and monetize the transactions. And so I think somebody, I think, will ultimately kind of spill the beans on what happened behind closed doors, and I think it will trickle out and you'll get somebody in power who isn't beholden to the powerful, isn't of the powerful, and will not see a problem doing it.
- [36:57]
Mark Calperin
All right, you guys are both students of Donald Trump, as am I. The man has a billion dollar poker face. Usually you can't tell when something's actually bothering him. In my experience. Emily, as you view Donald Trump, as he's publicly engaged with this over the last couple years, do you sense he's worried about it or you think he's got not a care in the world?
- [37:18]
Dan Tarantine
Well, I don't necessarily think he's worried about it, but I think the most telling interview he's ever had is with Rachel Campos Duffy, where she was going down a list on Fox News of would you disclose or will you be transparent about the JFK files, MLK files, or RFK files? She just goes down a list of. Of these different conspiracy theories. And then when she lands on Epstein, he says yes, and then says, although maybe that one less. So he also wished Ghislaine Maxwell well at one point when she ended up behind bars. So I don't know that it's so much that he's worried.
- [37:51]
Mark Calperin
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Emily, those are two pieces of data. What do you. What do you read into those pieces of data?
- [37:58]
Dan Tarantine
Well, again, I don't know that he's, like, angry.
- [38:01]
Mark Calperin
Forget worry. Do you think he's being purposeful there?
- [38:03]
Dan Tarantine
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
- [38:05]
Mark Calperin
All right, Dan, what's your read?
- [38:06]
Emily Jashinski
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it was even reported at the time when Epstein was first arrested and everything that he inquired if his name was on any lists. I mean, that was reported in several different places. I mean, I go back to the fact that the two places Jeffrey Epstein kind of trafficked in relationships were the Upper east side of New York City and Palm Beach. Donald Trump has a lot of friends. He lived on the Upper east side or Technically, Midtown and Palm Beach. He has admitted that he had met him. Right. There's no doubt about that. So I'm sure he's nervous whether or not he was involved directly or not. I think a lot of people he knows were, and there are a lot of CEOs and marriages that ended over their relationships. I think there's a lot more that would if more names came out. And so I think he has an interest in potentially this not really going much further.
- [39:00]
Mark Calperin
All right, let's talk a little bit about the media. How do you think the meat. Not the MAGA media, which is kind of split on Epstein, but more negative? How do you feel that what I call the dominant media is covering this Epstein thing? It's not getting that much coverage. So where's the hive mind of the dominant media on the Epstein story? Are they protecting themselves and their friends? Like, why aren't they more into it?
- [39:27]
Dan Tarantine
Well, I think part of it has to be protecting themselves. I mean, the Amy Robach leaked Project Veritas tape from several years back where she said she had the story and that it was basic, basically quashed by the higher. Higher ups at ABC News is an important one. I think even at this point, there's a public guilt by association. Anybody who stepped foot in, was photographed next to Jeffrey Epstein, ends up having a lot to answer for from, you know, people years into the future. So I don't think anybody wants to really dabble in this unless they have something that's huge. And that probably explains the. The lack of interest among those places.
- [40:06]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, Dan, there's exceptions like Vicky Ward, like the Miami Herald and others who have been on it. But I've just been amazed at how, even over the course of the whole thing, how little the dominant media has covered what is not just a great story just from the point of view of narrative, but an important story about protecting children. Why is the press seem so uninterested in this story?
- [40:28]
Emily Jashinski
You know, the only analogy I can give that kind of dovetails with Emily is just think about how long it took for Harvey Weinstein stuff to come out. I mean, it took someone with incredible courage to bulldoze forward and ultimately put that out. And I think whether it's, you know, the corporate interests or the not wanting to, you know, hurt the powerful. You're right. I mean, it's. It's. Look, it's. It's sex. It's rich, powerful people. It's, you know, allegedly, you know, some government officials. Like that is all the mix. Let's be Honest. In the modern era of clickbait and. And selling hard copy. So I'm not sure why more people have not been able to unearth in informative news on this topic.
- [41:11]
Mark Calperin
All right, let's go to our rapid round. Our patented rapid round. We both regular viewers of the program, so you're well familiar with it. I don't even need to explain the rules. Just kidding. Making this one up as we go along. We're doing word association for Trump figures. Here we go. One word. If you try to sneak in two words, I'll accept it, but try for one word. Here we go. Steve Bannon. Emily.
- [41:35]
Dan Tarantine
Sloppy. Steve.
- [41:36]
Mark Calperin
Sloppy. All right, Dan, look.
- [41:39]
Emily Jashinski
Lurking.
- [41:40]
Mark Calperin
Lurking. Pete Hegseth. Emily.
- [41:44]
Dan Tarantine
Fox News.
- [41:45]
Mark Calperin
Okay, that's two words, but kind of one. Dan. Pete Hegseth.
- [41:50]
Emily Jashinski
Goner.
- [41:51]
Mark Calperin
Goner. Okay. Melania Trump. Emily.
- [41:55]
Dan Tarantine
Stoic.
- [41:56]
Mark Calperin
Dan.
- [41:56]
Emily Jashinski
Oh, dignified.
- [41:59]
Mark Calperin
Okay, here we go. Marco Rubio. Emily. Future Dan.
- [42:06]
Emily Jashinski
Invaluable.
- [42:08]
Mark Calperin
Speaker Johnson. Emily.
- [42:10]
Dan Tarantine
Surprising.
- [42:11]
Mark Calperin
Dan.
- [42:13]
Emily Jashinski
Underestimated.
- [42:14]
Mark Calperin
Yeah, there you go. Okay, a few more. Here we go. Our favorite. Charlie Kirk. Emily.
- [42:22]
Dan Tarantine
Loyal.
- [42:24]
Mark Calperin
Dan Canary.
- [42:26]
Emily Jashinski
It's two words. Powerful.
- [42:29]
Mark Calperin
All right. Scott Besson. Emily.
- [42:33]
Dan Tarantine
Impressive.
- [42:35]
Mark Calperin
Dan.
- [42:39]
Emily Jashinski
I'll use it again. Powerful.
- [42:41]
Mark Calperin
All right, now we're doing media figures. Here we go. Ready? Emily. Brace yourself. No holds barred. Jake Tapper.
- [42:51]
Dan Tarantine
Eye roll.
- [42:52]
Mark Calperin
Dan. Sad.
- [42:56]
Selena Zito
Sad.
- [42:57]
Mark Calperin
All right. Peter Baker of the New York Times. Emily.
- [43:02]
Dan Tarantine
Disappointing.
- [43:03]
Mark Calperin
Dan.
- [43:04]
Emily Jashinski
Yesterday.
- [43:05]
Mark Calperin
Yesterday. Amazing. All right, Emily. Megyn Kelly.
- [43:11]
Dan Tarantine
Incredible hero.
- [43:13]
Mark Calperin
Incredible hero. I'll give you two or seven. Dan.
- [43:15]
Emily Jashinski
Powerful.
- [43:16]
Mark Calperin
Powerful. All right, Emily. The kind of conventional narrative is that old media is dead, legacy organizations are just on borrowed time, and that the rise of programs like yours are the present and future of media, as Bob himself said. Do you agree with that analysis, or do you think the obits of places like the New York Times and NBC News are being prematurely written?
- [43:39]
Dan Tarantine
Well, I agree with that, with a caveat, which is sort of what you just said. It's them at the scale. That's the era that's over. And you've seen this from the inside. Mark. That this is also happening with msnbc, like, actually in real time, and cnn, by the way, too, is that they're not going to be able to sustain the gargantuan, like, level of just sheer scale. I mean, the amount of employees, the amount of multimillion dollar salaries, they're going to have to pare back significantly. And so they're going to remain very powerful. They will still probably in many cases remain attached to major corporations, but they're not going to have the same level of scale. They'll actually be more competitive with some of, some of the smaller places in.
- [44:27]
Mark Calperin
The long run, I think, Dan, why can't these big places adapt to the current thing and as Emily suggested, scale back and use the power of their talent and their brands to, to be competitive? Why can't they do that?
- [44:39]
Emily Jashinski
I think they're beginning to on some level. Like if you think about the New York Times, it's the food app, wordle, other things that have been a little bit of the driver of, of subscriptions and monetization versus just the traditional, you know, international news and whatnot. I think Emily's right. Some of it is just the legacy infrastructure that they have. Shedding it and adopting it is going to take time. But I think the interesting thing is going to be which of these institutions or networks or whatnot don't adopt, purchase the model of these podcasts of things like two way and create a whole new set of entertainment of content that isn't just sitting at a stilted desk kind of reading the news and doing a 30 second hit with a guest. So I think they're business people. Desperate times are desperate matters. They're either going to collapse or they're going to evolve.
- [45:36]
Mark Calperin
All right, so the New York Times is one of the great, hilarious and interesting stories in modern media. As Dan, you suggested, they've revived themselves on a bunch of games. Not just wordle, they've got like six games. The Atlantic just announced a bunch of games. I've got an idea for the MK network, MK Media for a game that I want all the shows to be participating in. I'm not going to reveal it now because I need to speak to my attorney first because Steve will claim he owns 100% of it if I blurt it out here. But Emily, on the spot, I want you to come up with a concept for a wordle like game that some media organization could use to revitalize itself.
- [46:13]
Dan Tarantine
Well, here's a good idea for MK Media. You could play to your point, Mark, Dominant media bingo every single day and whoever gets, you know, the, the, the Trump derangement syndrome and like you, you can get that by probably 6am whoever sends their bingo card in first wins.
- [46:31]
Mark Calperin
All right, Dan, you got an idea for a good game? I won't steal it, I promise.
- [46:35]
Emily Jashinski
Oh, I like Emily's. I think that's a, that's a pretty good one. I don't know, you know, I don't do all these games, so I'm probably not the best person to ask.
- [46:49]
Mark Calperin
All right, Emily, what's Something you do every day that's certified waste of time.
- [46:56]
Dan Tarantine
The. Anything on my phone and that's most of my day. So what are you.
- [47:01]
Mark Calperin
What are you doing on there? Instagram. What are you doing? Twitter.
- [47:04]
Dan Tarantine
I'm just. I'm a Twitter addict. It's awful.
- [47:07]
Mark Calperin
It's whatever you think's a waste of time.
- [47:08]
Dan Tarantine
Yeah, most of it. I mean, probably 10 of it isn't.
- [47:11]
Mark Calperin
All right, Dan, what do you do every day that's a certified waste of time?
- [47:15]
Emily Jashinski
Oh, my God. Sort through all the Amazon packages in our house is probably up there. Like, my God, we have so many things that come in and go out all the time. There's probably something I wish.
- [47:28]
Mark Calperin
Emily, tell everybody when your program's on and how they can watch it.
- [47:31]
Dan Tarantine
Thanks, Mark. Well, it's on Mondays and Wednesdays at 10pm at night, we're live at 10pm so we'll head on over to YouTube. YouTube, that's right.
- [47:38]
Mark Calperin
And drinking. Recommended and encouraged.
- [47:41]
Dan Tarantine
Yeah, recommended. Encouraged, not necessary, but recommended.
- [47:44]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. Dan, where can everyone see your two.
- [47:45]
Emily Jashinski
Programs on two way weekly during the week, 9 to 10am, the morning meeting with you, Sean Spicer and myself, and then the group chat on Thursdays at 4pm It's a great show. If you haven't checked us out, five people from five different pieces of the ideological spectrum. And we have usually a great conversation.
- [48:08]
Mark Calperin
If there is any doubt why you are widely universally known as the sunny and share of modern media that ended with this segment, we all know why. We got you, babe. Thank you both, Emily, and thank you for being on. Grateful to have you. Please come back anytime. All right, next up, my friend Selena Zito and her new book about President Trump and Butler, the Untold story of his near assassination. That's next up. Now let me tell you a story. It's about a fella named Leo Grillo. He was on a road trip and he came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight. Clearly dog was in a lot of trouble. So Leo rescued the Doberman and he gave him a name. He called him Delta. Sadly though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start something called Delta Rescue. It's the world's largest no kill, care for life sanctuary. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness and they provide every animal with shelter, love, safety, and a good home. This dedication, this everlasting love for animals is Leo's mission and his legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us to do its good. Work. If you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, speak now with your estate planner. Because there are tax savings, estate planning benefits as well. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out now the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and speak with an advisor. We all call dogs man's best friends for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please right now visit deltarescue.org to learn more. Again, that's deltarescue.org all right, next up, an important new book by one of the most important reporters of the last decade plus in America. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is said about me that I understand Donald Trump, and sometimes it is said about me that I cover America, not politics. It might be a little bit true about me, but both those things are extremely true about Selena Zito. Her new book, butler the Untold Story of the Near Assassination of Donald Trump and the Fight for America's Heartland, is something of a miracle, just as Donald Trump's survival, as we talked about earlier in the program, was a miracle. The fact that Selena was there the day Donald Trump was shot, so close by, where he was standing poised to do an interview and then throughout the day had conversations with him is a miracle because there is no reporter in America better able to understand Donald Trump and the connection between what happened on Butler on that day where tragedy was turned into triumph. Then Selena, Selina and again, her new book just out this week, joins us now. Welcome.
- [50:52]
Selena Zito
Thank you so much. And thank you so much for a wonderful introduction. I really appreciate that you often think in life about purpose and where you end up being just on any given day, make a left instead of making a right. None of what happened that day in terms of where I was positioned, what I was doing, and the same goes for President Trump. You know, none of those things were supposed to be the way they were, and yet there they were. And that makes you think about purpose and God.
- [51:28]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. So again, the book, your book exists on, on many levels. But I think the two that are most profound for me, one was the story of the fact that you were not only there that day. And let's show the photo. First, let's show the photo, the famous photo of President Trump, where he is, where he is on the stage. Everybody's familiar with that. What, what people are going to be less familiar with is where you were so close by. And let's show people that photo. So the first level, there you are with those American flag Boots laying on the ground so close to the stage. How far. Do you know how far. How long after the shooting was that photo taken?
- [52:07]
Selena Zito
That was taken seconds. That was. That was taken after the second round of shots were fired. So just within seconds after. After he was. Was shot. And I didn't go down with the first set of gunfire that went off. I didn't go down after the second. I was taken down after that last. Those last four shots went out by Michel Picard iii. He was the advanced man for the campaign. Young man, a cancer survivor. And just took me down and shielded me until everything was clear.
- [52:47]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. So again, one level is the story you tell of what happened that day, not just standing so close to the president, but in communication with him throughout the day. We'll talk about that. But the other is the thing that you do better than any reporter I know, which is understand place, particularly your state of Pennsylvania, but place in general. And whenever you write about trade agreements or a political campaign or some economic issue, you always do the right thing, which not every reporter does, which is you rooted in a location. And your understanding of Butler, the venue for this historic event, again, where tragedy turned to triumph, is quite something. So tell people about Butler, Pennsylvania. Why did Donald Trump go there that day? Why is that a place of such resonance, not just for Pennsylvania, but for the 21st century of this country?
- [53:35]
Selena Zito
What I think Donald Trump has gotten correct throughout his campaigning, whether it was 2016, 2020, or 2024, is the understanding of the nuance of place and rootedness that has an impact in American politics that a lot of people don't understand because it's not evident. You find this out through, through many levels of conversation, why people live the way where they do that pride that they have in it, and plays a part in their voting decision as opposed to partisanship. People don't always put a red or a blue shirt on as much as we think they do, in as much as they vote for the place that surrounds them. What's best for my community, what's best for my family? There are two pivotal moments in the past couple of years that led to President Trump winning reelection, and one of them was East Palestine. That's the tiny little village that's 42 miles from Butler, Pennsylvania, where the train derailed and the Biden administration for whatever decision, decided not to either visit it. It even took a couple hundred White House press releases before they even addressed it. Yet he showed up there. I remember being there. It was one of those typical Appalachian gray sleet, snowy, rainy Day, you didn't know what you were standing in, but he walks around and talks to people. And at that moment was February 2023. He was not. Ron DeSantis was beating him in the New Hampshire poll at that moment. Right. This is before the primary start, since February 2023. And I remember writing that day, if he wins, if he pulls ahead within the next couple weeks, it's because of what happened here. It's because he understood place, he understood rootedness, he understood people's connection to their hometowns. And two weeks later, he was ahead in the polls and never looked back. And then Butler. Butler is also a place that is very important, and it's not a place that politicians go to. There's only been only one other president that has campaigned there, and that was John F. Kennedy.
- [56:06]
Mark Calperin
So why was Donald Trump in Butler that day? Is it a red area? Purple? Blue?
- [56:10]
Selena Zito
It's red. But there's things about Butler that make it a sort of a boilerplate of other places in the state and in the country. So it is a mix of rural, industrial. There's a steel mill there, there's a lot of industrial there, but there's also up middle class wealth there. And it's also diverse. And so it is a perfect boilerplate of showing other towns showcasing other places in the state that look just like it. Right. People can see and feel themselves by looking at butler. And it's 30 miles outside of the city of Pittsburgh, an hour outside of Erie, I would argue the most important county in the country, not just the state. And it's also on the Ohio state line. So it draws so many different kinds of ability of people to have access, to be part of something as they believe, as bigger than self, and participate in it.
- [57:18]
Mark Calperin
You had an interview scheduled with Donald Trump on the Saturday before the Republican convention. Every reporter in the country would want such an interview. And you got that, I would say, in part because of your reputation. Well, and hard earned for understanding Donald Trump and Donald Trump's America. Tell us about what you were expecting to do that day and what you actually ended up doing.
- [57:43]
Selena Zito
So I was told by Chris Lacivita, who was the cocaine campaign chair at the time, you have five minutes before with the president beforehand. I knew that meant probably 20 minutes, because President Trump, whether he likes you or not, he likes talk. Right. And, you know, and so I knew I might get like 20 minutes out of him. I wrote my four questions down on a piece of paper, roll them up and put them in in my wallet. And. And the initial was the five minutes when I get to the rally, I get a text from Susie Wiles and said, hey, we're. We're not going to be able to do it beforehand. But because I was at the rally, the second part of the text didn't come through for a couple minutes later, so I didn't think I was doing any. Any interview. Then she said, we're going to do it for five minutes after. Like, okay, fine. As a journalist, you have to be very nimble. You have to expect the unexpected. Nothing ever goes to plan. And. And then about. He had already landed. He was in the. Behind the stage. Do it in what is called the click line. What's a click line? It's where candidates go back and they talk to local law enforcement, firemen, state troopers. They also pick community leaders out from the crowd and they get their picture taken with them. It's actually a really wonderful experience to watch people interact with him on a very, very natural level. And they said, okay, so you're going to interview him back there? And then they decided, oh, no, I'm going to Susie Wiles. Text me and said, hey, how would you feel about going to Bedminst on a plane and then do the interview there? I'm like, I did not have that in my bingo card, but I said, sure, and my daughter was going to go with me. And then five minutes before he's supposed to go out on stage, they come rushing back. Michelle Picard III comes rushing back and says, it's go time. I'm like, okay, they changed their mind again. So he drags us through the crowd. We get behind the stage, the. And President is back there, and I look at Picard and say, well, where are we doing this interview? And he says, I have no idea, actually. So he goes around the corner, he asks the president, and he comes back out sort of sheepishly and says he just wanted to say hi to you. You're still going to Bedminster. And I can hear him as I'm going around this curtain. Selena. And he always says, it's like there's two running jokes between him and I. I have the best hair in America. I don't, but that's pretty funny. And he also asks if I want to go out on stage with him. I never want to go. I get very uncomfortable with attention. And I'm like, no, I don't want to go out on stage with you. So he gives me a hug. He asks about my grandchildren. He said, I'm literally looking forward to talking to you about Pennsylvania. And Answering your questions. And then I hear the Lee Greenwood song starting. So they rush myself, my daughter and my son in law out and they don't know where to put me, so they put me in the riser. I'm not on the riser. They can't take me back to the riser. They put me in the buffer. The buffer is the area between the president stage and the people that are attending their rally. And if you look at the COVID of the book, you can see, and to me, this cover is very meaningful, not just because my daughter took it, but because you see President Trump standing there looking out at the crowd. That relationship that he has with that crowd is very transactional. He never turns away from them. Never until that day. And we follow him out, we go around, and then we end up over sort of on the side after he walks out. And he does two things that he's never ever done before. And I've covered I don't know how many rallies. He puts a chart down. And if you're old enough to remember Ross Perot, you would get what I said to my daughter in that moment. I said, what is he think he's Ross Perot? What's the deal with the, with the, with the chart? And, and then he turns his neck and looks at it. Now it's important to go back and think about that. That a photo on the COVID that relationship, he never turns away from them. Never. He might turn his body to face a different part of a rally, but he never turns his neck away. And he does in that moment. And that's when I heard the first four shots.
- [62:28]
Mark Calperin
Sometimes reporters are on their phones or taking notes or something. What were you doing when the shooting began?
- [62:33]
Selena Zito
I was, I was, I had my recorder on, but it was in my pocket. Still can pick up sound. Right. I wanted to make sure. I always try to record everything that I do. Not just because, you know, I worry about notes, but also because there's nuance in people's voices when they talk about things. And you want to grab that emotion.
- [62:52]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [62:52]
Selena Zito
And so that's why, that's why I kept the recorder on. I can get a transcript later, but transcript doesn't matter. Right. You want to get.
- [63:00]
Mark Calperin
So where was your gaze when the shooting began?
- [63:04]
Selena Zito
Right at him.
- [63:04]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. And have you ever been in a place with live gunfire before?
- [63:09]
Selena Zito
Yeah, the Tree of Life shooting. It was still going on when I arrived there. That was when the synagogue where the 11 congregants were killed back in 2018.
- [63:22]
Mark Calperin
So you're, look, you're looking up at him. And the gunfire begins. And as you said, you didn't go down until you were pulled down after the second round. So what were you thinking and doing after the first round?
- [63:32]
Selena Zito
Well, you know, you always read about time slows down in, in try in. In situations, not for always, but a lot of people say everything seems to slow down. And for me, that was very true. I watch him grab his ear, I see the blood streak across his face, and I see him to go to his knees. My first thought was he didn't get knocked down, so maybe he's okay, or maybe he's not gravely injured. And then I remember thinking, that podium isn't going to protect him if there's more gunshots, that podium isn't going to protect him. And then I said, and this is, you know, this conversation you have with yourself, oh, my God, I hope no one else is hurt. I hope everyone is okay. And then there's the second four shots. Now, at that time, by the time the second four shots go off, he's already surrounded by a sea of blue suits. Right. The. The Secret Service has already surrounded him. I'm still standing. I'm thinking I have a job to do.
- [64:35]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. What's your, what's her daughter, the photographer, doing at that point?
- [64:37]
Selena Zito
Oh, same thing. She's still taking pictures.
- [64:40]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [64:40]
Selena Zito
And then until her husband takes her down, and then Michelle Picard takes me down and. And she's like, just protects me. And this, I mean, this is a young man. He's 28, 29 years old. He's a cancer survivor. I never met him until that day. And just that act of selflessness. I will never forget that young man in that moment. He didn't need to do that.
- [65:05]
Mark Calperin
Now, as a journalist, you're sitting on top of a potential world exclusive, right? Because you're right there. You're positioned differently and really better than anybody else. And many of the reporters who are at the event covering it, not in the buffer, but on the riser where the press is normally positioned, they really didn't have any sense of what was going on, as you saw. So how much of your instinct was about getting the story versus protecting yourself once you realized what was happening?
- [65:34]
Selena Zito
I didn't think about protecting myself at all. And I don't know where that comes from. I wish I had some deep philosophical idea, but I just knew that, you know, what flashed before my, in my head was I was thinking of those Lincoln books about witness to history, right. And I was thinking about, like, I have an obligation And I have a purpose in this moment. And it wasn't about me. It was about history. And, Mark, you know me, you know I am a real history nerd.
- [66:06]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [66:07]
Selena Zito
So I thought that this is my purpose in this moment. My purpose is to chronicle history.
- [66:13]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [66:14]
Selena Zito
So I didn't think about a book. I just thought about I need to have my. All of my senses on high alert.
- [66:22]
Mark Calperin
Right. So we all know what happened next. The President pushed himself up with the Secret Service around him, pumped his arm, said, fight, fight, fight. And. And. And then was. And then was brought away. So tell the story of what happened next. In other words, the President went to the hospital, then he flew to Bedminster. When did you next talk to him? When did you next see him?
- [66:44]
Selena Zito
He called me bright and early the next morning, and he said, hello, this is President Trump. I didn't know it was President Trump. Right. You know that voice immediately. And I did something that's going to make my parents really mad at me. It was just an emotional reaction. I said to him, Mr. President, are you bleeping kidding me? I was not shot. You were shot. You know, like, I just couldn't believe he was asking about me. And then he apologizes that we didn't get to do the interview. And, And. And that was really wild to me in the moment.
- [67:23]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. He kept. He kept calling. He called you how many times the next day?
- [67:26]
Selena Zito
Seven times.
- [67:27]
Mark Calperin
Seven times. So I'm pretty familiar with Donald Trump's habits.
- [67:31]
Selena Zito
Yeah.
- [67:32]
Mark Calperin
I don't think that's common for him to call the same person. Each call, I think he said, lasted about 10 minutes. So that's over an hour of conversation. And I get a calling to find out how you were, apologize for the interview. But what do you think compelled him to continue to call you throughout the day?
- [67:48]
Selena Zito
You know, when you're in a tragic event and you try to explain it to someone, your wife, your son, whoever it is, your family member. But if they weren't there, they. They. They don't have that dimension to the moment. Right. That connection to the moment. I think much of it had to do with. We were both there.
- [68:08]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [68:08]
Selena Zito
And we both experienced it.
- [68:10]
Mark Calperin
Right.
- [68:11]
Selena Zito
Those are pretty profound conversations that we had in those moments.
- [68:16]
Mark Calperin
Right. So, obviously, and again, I talked about it early in the program. There's so many angles at which to look at what happened and its meaning for Trump supporters and Trump opponents and the contours of the election. And one of the things that's been much discussed is how this event changed him. So first thing, I want to ask you is what's your appraisal of how this event changed him?
- [68:40]
Selena Zito
Purpose and faith. And I don't mean faith like I'm going to church every week and I'm singing in a choir. I'm talking about this profound sense of God being present in that moment. And I've mentioned this before, a sense of purpose. And you know, the conversation that I had with him, that tells me about him today, that I know that hasn't left him. And we've talked. I have a Washington Post, this story interview with him this week on Friday, that's pretty meaningful. But I asked him about saying, fight, fight, fight. So from my angle where I could see him, the crowd at that moment is saying USA over and over again, right? And I can see him saying USA as he's getting up and he turns and everybody has seen him saying, fight, fight, fight, fight. There's that iconic photo of him holding his fist up. But I asked him, why? Why did you say that? And he said, well, he kept saying, nobody's going to believe me when I say this. I wasn't Donald Trump in that moment. I had an obligation to represent strength for the country resolute, to be resolute, for people that were there, to not be afraid and that the country goes on. And for people watching, right. I represented the country in that moment. And to me, America has always been about strength and grit and carrying on in the worst moments.
- [70:25]
Mark Calperin
Right. For people who aren't fans of Donald Trump, why would they be helped by reading this book?
- [70:32]
Selena Zito
Well, it really explores the importance of place and rootedness and how much that impacts American politics. And a lot of that. I mean, you look at places like Butler and Beaver county and Erie and Washington county and Westmoreland county, these were all historical Democrat strongholds. And that's where Democrats continuously lost their connective tissue with those voters. And, and people will learn throughout that book about how these people changed their vote and changed their alignment because Democrats continuously shed their importance away. And I also think there have been some great books written about the Biden campaign and conversely the Harris campaign, but not from the viewpoint that I had. And there were times, and I know you and I talked about this, Mark, that I just felt like, like a four year old, like stomping my feet and screaming about how absolutely awful the Harris campaign was getting Pennsylvania. You know, she was there for, I don't know, a total of 12 days. She, she literally lived in Pittsburgh for five or seven days and made one, one appearance. And when she had events, when she would eventually have events down the road. They were curtailed in that if you were a curious voter, if you are not sure where you wanted to vote, you couldn't go and see her. You couldn't do, as they always say, kick the tires. Right. See if you felt like you belonged, if that message resonated because it was closed off. They were all private events, and they were mostly for SEIU social justice union members.
- [72:33]
Mark Calperin
Right. Well, you're a great student of Donald Trump. You're also a great student of Governor Shapiro, your governor, who's a Democrat. How does the state vote for Shapiro and Trump? What's the through line for that?
- [72:45]
Selena Zito
Well, first, I have to say, one of the most powerful and meaningful speeches ever given by a politician happened the day after the shooting by Josh Shapiro in, In. In Butler at the scene where you talk about Cory Competore and being a girl. Dad. That was profound.
- [73:05]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [73:06]
Selena Zito
And. And here's the thing about Josh Shapiro. He understands plays. He goes to Butler. He saved a steel mill in Butler. And so he. These are voters. You know, Elon Musk has talked lately a lot about a third party. In many ways, the current Republican Party is what a third party would look like where it has all of these different people from all different walks of life part of a new coalition. And Shapiro and Trump profoundly understand place. And they also. Am I allowed to swear?
- [73:48]
Mark Calperin
Oh, yeah.
- [73:48]
Selena Zito
Okay. So. So Josh Shapiro has this motto. I actually got to break this news. It's called get shit done. Well, so does Donald Trump.
- [73:59]
Mark Calperin
Yeah.
- [73:59]
Selena Zito
I mean, those two have so much more in common than people realize. And one of the first people to call Josh Shapiro after he was the governor's mansion was, you know, Fire Bond was Donald Trump. And they both shared with me that they had a very meaningful conversation in that moment.
- [74:21]
Mark Calperin
Yeah. I was going to say, to answer my own question, be the same as yours, which is what they have in common, is they believe in getting shit done. And. And they. And they recognize that the best way to do that is to think most broadly about what kind of coalition you can build.
- [74:34]
Selena Zito
Yes, absolutely.
- [74:37]
Mark Calperin
For. For fans of Donald Trump who have read and heard and seen a bunch about him. What's in Butler, your book, that you think that they'll find special?
- [74:47]
Selena Zito
Well, I think they'll see themselves, first of all, in a way that's respectful. The problem with current journalism right now is it's too heavily concentrated outside of middle America. That doesn't make journalists bad. It just means they don't understand the people that they cover. And what. What I think I bring to this story and the story of Pennsylvania and, and the story of why we are where we are today is that I'm, I'm from Western Pennsylvania. I've been a waitress. I've, I've been a cafeteria lady. I've worked in a sewage treatment plant. Right. I have, I have a cultural connection to the people that I cover. I don't. Doesn't mean they're perfect. Doesn't mean I'm perfect. But understanding people that sit in a pew or own a gun and be able to write about them in a respectful way, I think is important for people to see that. I also think the exploration about what happens next with our profession, Mark the final chapter, is also really, really important for Trump voters.
- [76:02]
Mark Calperin
Couldn't agree more. I have had the honor and pleasure in my career of knowing people in certain professions who are as best in class as what they do. And I honored to say that I so enjoy reading your work and being able to know you a little bit and to have you on today. So you are as good, I'll say, as any reporter I've ever met because you always keep things focused on the real lives of real people. And too many of our colleagues forget that that is what we're supposed to be focused on. So congratulations on Butler, the untold story of the near assassination of Donald Trump and the Fight for America's Heartland. It's available now and you should do what I do, which is anything Selena's nice enough to write in whatever format it's in. You should read. Congratulations and thank you for being on next up.
- [76:45]
Selena Zito
Thank you. I'm very humbled by that. Thank you so much.
- [76:48]
Mark Calperin
Thank you. Great to see you. We'll be back with another episode dropping Thursday. Grateful to you for being here. We're still working on the name for our community, so if you want to keep submitting ideas on social media, please do. Next up Nation is having a little bit of a comeback, so may end up being that. We'll see. Thank you for watching. I'll see you soon for more of what's next up.