← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Brit Hume, Joe Scarborough, Megyn Kelly, Newt Gingrich: Memorable Guests of 2025
01:19:01
A look back at some of the most memorable guest conversations of 2025 on "Next Up with Mark Halperin." Featuring Brit Hume, Joe Scarborough, Megyn Kelly, and Newt Gingrich on the stories, power dynamics, and political turning points that defined the year. https://hometitlelock.com/mark and use promo code MARK to get a FREE title history report and a FREE TRIAL of their Triple Lock Protection! For details visit https://hometitlelock.com/warranty Unplugged: Switching is simple, Visit https://Unplugged.com/MARK and order your UP phone today! Delta Rescue: Visit https://DeltaRescue.org to learn more
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- [00:00]
Mark Halperin
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- [01:00]
Mark
I'm wondering how you see the arc of liberal media bias from Clinton to Trump. And that's obviously a PhD thesis topic, but is it worse now than it was back when Clinton was president? Has it gotten worse and what accounts for the degree to which, even in the age of transparency, most of our major news organizations can be so biased?
- [01:21]
Brit Hume
Well, I think it's gotten worse, Mark, I'm sorry to say. And part of it is I think that people get into journalism for different reasons. And when I was coming along, people got into journalism. In my case, it was because I couldn't find any other job at the time. But I think a lot of reporters thought it was interesting. In those days, the custom of neutral news coverage was deeply ingrained, and that's how you were taught to cover the news. And if you let any bias or opinions slip into, your copy would be X'd out and you'd be criticized for it by the city editor or by your editor, whoever it was. And I think that tradition has faded. And I also think that the arrival on the national scene of Donald Trump has accelerated the process. Because if you were trying to design somebody that journalists would not like, you could hardly do better than Donald Trump. Rich, crude, in some ways vulgar, full of braggadocia, not really a liberal, except in some ways before he really got into politics. So I think he was a person designed to be disliked. And journalists were attracted to the idea that the man constituted a danger to the American system, and they treated his election in 2016 as a National emergency and felt it was their job to put out the fire, which is to say was to try to bring him down, which they most certainly tried to do, and in my view, made fools of themselves in the process and help Trump, Right? Well, in the end it did because it was so bad and so obvious, not just what journalists did, but what Democratic Party prosecutors did, what the intelligence community to some extent did. All those things, I think became were clear to the public, and I think because of that, they ended up helping him in the end.
- [03:26]
Mark
There's a story today that nbcnews.com ran, and it says Chairman Comer, who's leading the investigation into Joe Biden's use of the auto pen for pardons and other things, that Chairman Comer often signs letters. It was part of the investigation using an auto pen. It couldn't be more different. Right. It's not about pardons and the question of who's signing them. And he's not signing subpoenas with the auto pen. He's just signing letters. No serious person could think that was a news story, and yet NBC wrote it up as if it was a, you know, a gotcha, gotcha hypocrisy thing. So here's the question. Here's the question I'd ask you, which, which I engaged on Twitter with folks today. Do people at NBC know that that is a phony story, but they write it on purpose? Are they so deluded that they think it's a real story?
- [04:13]
Brit Hume
Well, I'm afraid I think it's the latter, Mark. I mean, there's young journalists coming along and they hear a story about auto pen being used by Mr. Biden, and therefore anybody using the auto pen becomes kind of an equivalent in their mind and imagination. And the next thing you know, you got stories written about it when it's perfectly clear, or should be, that nobody is talking about Mr. Biden's use of the auto pen for letters and other routine things. The concern, to the extent there is a concern, is about using the auto pen for very serious official documents such as pardons and the like, where he.
- [04:50]
Mark
May not have been the signer.
- [04:52]
Mark Halperin
Right.
- [04:53]
Mark
The decider.
- [04:54]
Brit Hume
Yeah, that's right. And that's the concern. I'm not. My own view is that the pardon power, which is what's most often talked about, is so plenary, so nearly absolute, that if he chose to do it by, you know, saying certain categories of people should be pardoned and the staff then whipped up a group that fit the criteria and the auto panel is used to do it, that that probably passes muster in the Courts, you've been.
- [05:18]
Mark
Smart enough largely to stay out of management, but let's say you were the Washington bureau chief of NBC News, and Comer's comms director called you and said, britt, this story you guys have on the website's ridiculous. And you looked at it and you said, yeah, it's ridiculous. What would you do then?
- [05:33]
Brit Hume
Well, I take it down and I would call the journalists who are involved in it in, sit them down and ask some questions about how it is that they reasoned out the idea that this was a news story. And if the reasoning was as faulty as it seems to be, I would, you know, they would be reprimanded and it would be a mark against them.
- [05:53]
Mark
Okay, and then what if. What if the head of Comcast called you and said, brit, great job, you're absolutely right. We need to routinize this from not happening. We need to fix it. I don't want NBC News to be a liberally biased place. What would you do then? What would be the structural reforms you could possibly make, if any? Or is it impossible to fix it?
- [06:14]
Brit Hume
Well, I think it's deeply ingrained, but I know this. At Fox News, I was managing editor in Washington, and we were able to find people to hire journalists and tell them what our method was for covering news. I'm not talking about the evening opinion shows or any of the rest of it. I'm simply talking about our news coverage, the production of packages and other news reports that we were looking for. And I talked about the kinds of stories we were looking for, and I talked about neutrality in news coverage. And it used to be so customary, Mark, as I'm sure you know, that it wasn't hard to teach back in the day, and it shouldn't be hard to teach now. I just simply think it's not taught.
- [06:59]
Mark
Yeah. I want to ask you about the vice president. There's so many aspects of this administration that I find to be unprecedented, at least in my career in modern times. I've never seen a vice president accumulate so much power so quickly in politics and policy and personnel. I'm wondering if you think about maybe Dick Cheney as the standard of a powerful vice president. Where do you rate JD Vance in terms of accumulation of power at this early stage?
- [07:25]
Brit Hume
Well, he'd be right up there. Dick Cheney was quite powerful, and because the president wanted him to be and leaned on him, President Bush 43, leaned on him for advice and counsel, and he was heavily influential in the field of national security policy, foreign affairs, and so on. Vance seems to have an even broader writ. And I think Trump likes him because he's a really good spokesman. He's a very bright guy, a very talented guy, speaks well. And I remember thinking at a time during the campaign, Mark, when there was a lot of talk about maybe Trump was going to dump him. And I would see these interviews on the Sunday shows when Vance was out and he was out a lot, where he would simply run rings around his hosts and make them look ridiculous. And I thought, Trump is going to like that and like that a lot. And he did, and he continues to, in that account. In my judgment, his effectiveness as a spokesman accounts for his accumulation of influence, and I think it's considerable. Yeah.
- [08:30]
Mark
I mean, less than a year ago, not only was there talk of Trump dumping him, but when he was picked, people in Trump's circle said to me, oh, this is a disaster. He's gone from that to, I can't find anybody in the party who doesn't like him enthusiastically. So, I mean, can you think of any, not just a vice president, but can you think of any politician who's gone from being somewhat unpopular with parts of the party to being universally acclaimed as a great spokesman, a crafty guy, a principled guy? I just don't remember a turnaround in less than a year like that.
- [09:02]
Brit Hume
No, I can't either, frankly. I think that's a good point, Mark, and I think he wants very much to succeed Trump, and I think at the moment, he's got a leg up.
- [09:12]
Mark
Yeah, I'm talking about Scott Bessett, universally acclaimed as effective in the job of Treasury Secretary. Most people who come in like he did, no government service time in the private sector. Master of the universe, used to getting his way in the private sector. Most of them have failed. People like John Snow, long forgotten, but one of Bush's treasury secretaries. What do you think are the building blocks of Besant success so far?
- [09:40]
Brit Hume
Well, I think, first of all, he's deep, and I think he's very, very smart. And I think he has thought through a lot of these issues before he arrived at the Treasury Department. So he has a lot to say about these things, and he's prepared. And when he's going to do an interview, and he does a lot of them, he comes prepared and he's quick on his feet, and he's good at explaining relatively complex matters. And he makes the case for Trump and his policies as well as I've heard it made by anybody or by any treasury secretary in my memory. You know, I remember when James Baker was was treasury secretary back in the day. He was effective, but he was not as effective nor as important in that job as Scott Bessant has proved to be.
- [10:24]
Mark
Wow. So you're saying he's more effective than Baker was?
- [10:27]
Brit Hume
Well, I, I think he was a better. He was a better spokesman and perhaps that's because he was put out more. Baker was not that. Baker was a guy who was great at talking to reporters off camera and he knew how to give you something without hurting his cause. And that's a valuable skill. But that's entirely different from what is a source of Besson's influence, in my judgment.
- [10:49]
Mark
If Vance and Besson are over performers in this administration, who would you say is an underperformer?
- [10:54]
Brit Hume
I think Hagseth has had a hard time. I think Pam Bondi has run into trouble because, you know, the question with Pam Bondi, it seems to me, is whether she's lighter than air or whether she's. There's any real depth there. She certainly had a lot of experience in the law and she's a reasonably competent person. But this is the attorney general. Attorney generals operate at the nexus of law and politics, and it's a very tricky and difficult balance to manage. And, you know, you have to support the president. You have to be for him. But what you don't have to do and what she does is recite all his talking points verbatim all the time, which is, I think, what she does. I think it'd be reassuring to the public if she seemed a little deeper and more serious.
- [11:40]
Mark
The president and his supporters say this is like an all star cabinet, and certainly they're visible. I think it's the most visible cabinet in terms of TV appearances and interviews and press conferences. Do you consider this to be an all star cabinet or more of a mixed bag?
- [11:55]
Brit Hume
Well, he's got a lot. They're all out on the field, as you suggest, Mark, and they're very visible. I think that's right. I think some of them are all stars. I think some of them are not. You know, I think the Chris Wrighted energy is effective and I think Doug Burgum has proved to be effective. You know, they've got the president's policy, they believe in it, they can articulate it. And so they do a good job in the White House, which is to some extent responsible for whether a cabinet secretary is visible or not, has let that be. And who would have thought, Mark, when Trump first became president, it was all Trump, all the time, for everything.
- [12:38]
Mark
Exactly.
- [12:39]
Brit Hume
Cabinet was in the background Some of them struggled that in this new Trump administration, we have a very visible cabinet and the president is fine with that, which is, I think, an interesting change. Yep.
- [12:52]
Mark
It's totally different. All right, I'm going to run through some others. You tell me. All star or weak link? Ready?
- [12:59]
Brit Hume
Yeah.
- [12:59]
Mark
Transportation Secretary Duffy, all star. Homeland Security Gnome, weak link. Secretary of State Rubio, all star. So far I agree with every one of yours. I, I, I bet we'd agree with the rap. Head of the National Economic Council, Kevin Hassett, all star. White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, all star. It must be all my training, Brick, because I agree with every everyone so far. Secretary of Education McMahon now all star. All star. So far we agree on every one. Is there somebody in this administration besides Vance and Rubio who you think someday might be president?
- [13:48]
Brit Hume
I'd have to think about that, Mark. None comes to mind. Off the top of my head, I'm.
- [13:53]
Mark
Now I think Sean Duffy might be president. What do you think of that?
- [13:58]
Brit Hume
Well, he's an effective politician. He's youthful. A lot will depend on how this plays out in the role he's been given. And it's now he's what, head of NASA now, too, on top of everything else?
- [14:08]
Mark
Yes.
- [14:08]
Brit Hume
So that's, so that's an opportunity to shine. We'll see if he can do it.
- [14:12]
Mark
And do you have any sense of why Trump has changed? As you rightly point out, in the first term, everybody was a supporting player. Now he's got all these folks out there, lots of screen time. I mean, Kristi Noem, I think might break Regis's record of most air, live air minutes logged.
- [14:27]
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- [14:27]
Mark
Any idea why he changed?
- [14:28]
Brit Hume
Yeah. On top of that, in her case, you get all these commercials that are running with her all over them.
- [14:32]
Mark
That's right.
- [14:33]
Brit Hume
I've never seen that before, but, well, here's what I would say. I think when Trump was first elected, he really, really know what he was doing. He was. And in some ways he has said so. You know, he said when he picked his Cabinet, he, you know, he didn't really know what he knows now. And I think what happened is, I think he was, this is a guy who has certain insecurities. He's bold and he's got guts and he believes in himself. But you consider what greeted him when he was first elected four years ago and the fact that he didn't know the ways of Washington and so forth. I think he learned a lot in that first term in office, and I think he learned a lot between the Time he was defeated and the time he was elected again and thought about it a lot and achieved it. And I think the mere achievement of it has had an effect on him psychologically, not to mention his own reaction to being shot. And I think he comes in with a bigger, more comfortable sense of himself and a better sense of how to pick people and how Washington works and how politics works. And that's enabled him to see the value of having strong people around him, which I think he did in his business. You know, I think he's done that and he, you know, and he's not afraid to appoint powerful women around him and has had them throughout his career. And I think all that is coming to the fore now. He's a more. He's a much more assured, confident and comfortable figure and appreciates and wants strong performances around him.
- [16:05]
Mark
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- [17:44]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, if Trump is a success, remember, this is. I always tell the Trump team that they've won a ticket to the dance, but now they've got to dance. If Trump is a success, I think it's almost inevitable that Vance will become the presidential nominee. I watched the two of them close tonight, watched on tv, the two of them at the National Cemetery on Memorial Day. And, you know, realizing that J.D. vance was one year younger than Richard Nixon was when Eisenhower picked him. I mean, so a very young vice president, he's almost in the Theodore Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy range, and he's been very smart. I mean, you know, when they had the announcement a couple of weeks ago, oh, he's going to be the national finance Chairman for the Republican National Committee. Well, he'll know every major Republican donor in the country by sometime early next year. Now, you combine standing next to Trump, the natural news coverage, you know, visiting the last pope, visiting the new pope, making major speeches that really do matter, which he has done. It's very hard for me to see if he wants it, how he avoids becoming the Republican nominee. And then the question will be, I think the, the only question for 26 and 28 is really simple. Is it working? Whatever it is, yeah. If it's working, we're going to keep the House in 26 and we're going to elect J.D. vance president in 28, assuming it stays.
- [19:18]
Mark
On this trajectory and it's working well enough, at least for Republicans. Can you name either the person or the type of person who would challenge J.D. vance for the nomination?
- [19:28]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, look, it's a free country. I mean, there are a lot of governors, there are a lot of senators, there are a lot of billionaires. I mean, you know, you are allowed to come and play. You're just necessarily not guaranteed to win. I discovered that in 2012 when I did pretty well until I ran into Romney's millions and learned that it's a game for big boys. It's not, you know, but it's, but.
- [19:47]
Mark
It'S, but is the opening potentially someone to his right, to his left and the establishment?
- [19:52]
Historian/Political Analyst
I have no idea how. I mean, because he, he is going to be. It's beyond maga. If we are succeeding, JD Vance will be the articulator and the co manager. I mean, he's done a great job, for example, in the Senate, getting the Cabinet through because he could go back to his senatorial colleagues. He's done a very good job so far representing America overseas. He did a great job on Memorial Day just standing next to the president, Arlington. I mean, you watch, you look at that picture and you think to yourself, what. What's the wedge somebody's going to try to drive? And I don't see how they do it. I mean, everybody's allowed to run. And every professional consultant in the country will have some plausible explanation of why you should hire them. But, I mean, from my standpoint as a historian, look, I was for Jack Kemp against George H.W. bush in 1988, and I learned the power of having stood next to Reagan. Yeah. Because inside your own party, it's maybe harder in the general, but inside your own party, it's very hard to beat a vice president.
- [21:06]
Mark
Yeah. And Bush 41 had nothing like the support of President Reagan that. That Donald Trump's likely to give. J.D. vance, if the RNC said, we want to do deep opposition research and prepare for three Democrats who are most likely to be the Democratic nominee for president, who would you tell them to prepare for? Which three?
- [21:25]
Historian/Political Analyst
I haven't got a clue.
- [21:27]
Mark
I mean, because. Because they all look weak.
- [21:30]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, because. Because now you're talking about winning a nomination.
- [21:34]
Mark
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Historian/Political Analyst
Look, I mean, at one level, you have to say, and I just did Newsom's podcast, so I have to be nice to him. I mean, and he's very, very smart. He's very agile. He's also very shallow and has. He has to carry California on his back, and that may be by itself prohibitive, but if you have the largest state in the country and the kind of fundraising that the San Francisco Mafia can do, he has to be considered a serious candidate. For the life of me, I don't understand Pritzker. I can't admit it, but he has so much money. He apparently was pretty effective in New Hampshire. I think the Governor Whitmer of Michigan is the most attractive of the Democrats just in terms of fitting a series of different boxes. And I think governor of Pennsylvania is probably the smartest of them. But again, but he's Shapiro. And can a Jewish governor of Pennsylvania really find love in the Democratic primary? And I'm not sure. Okay.
- [22:33]
Mark
I just want to ask you about one thing, respectfully. You've been on Governor Newsom show. He's been on my show. You said he's shallow, and I know that's a common view, but I'm wondering what you base it on, because I don't think he is.
- [22:44]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, shallow may be the wrong. He's agile.
- [22:47]
Mark
Yeah, agile sounds more positive than shallow to me. I don't have a story.
- [22:52]
Historian/Political Analyst
I meant it in the sense that he. He's able to constantly move. Look, he wrote a book which I actually touted, Citizenville, which I think is a very good book. And what. What puzzles me about Newsom is to your point where you're right, and I. I didn't say it very well. Newsom has the potential to be very serious, very thoughtful, and very real. He avoids that partially because it doesn't pay in Sacramento to actually think through how bad Sacramento is. And that's what I meant. He is a guy who has the potential to go deep. He consciously stays on the surface.
- [23:27]
Mark
Okay. I'm more open to that analysis than Sean.
- [23:30]
Historian/Political Analyst
Okay.
- [23:32]
Mark
I think one of the biggest stories of the last four months and really go back further, but more impactful is present is the degree to which woke culture, in all its manifestations, is on the retreat. It's almost an unfathomable story. The only thing I can compare it to was at the end of the Cold War, as Eastern European countries started to change so quickly and the Berlin Wall came down. If you look at Silicon Valley, so many of the leaders there are now not just neutral, but they're very pro Trump. Their employees, I thought would revolt. They have not, or at least not openly. The Washington Post owner announces, we're not going to endorse Kamala Harris. I thought there'd be mass resignations. A lot of people have left the paper, but the paper continues to run Harvard, although they're at war with the president clearly on the retreat. So much has changed in the culture where political correctness is no longer terrorizing people. I'm just wondering if you think what's happened has happened simply because of the. The. The firm actions of this administration, or did they basically just tap into something that was already ripe to happen?
- [24:46]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, you. You may remember the. The. The story. The childhood story about the emperor who had no clothing.
- [24:51]
Brit Hume
Yeah.
- [24:52]
Historian/Political Analyst
And all of his advisors had told him that having no clothing was great and that it was exactly what he should do. And as he's walking down the street, this little boy goes, he's naked. And the emperor looks around and suddenly realizes, yeah, I'm naked. You guys are crazy. I think what happened was. There was a. There's a remarkable story to be told someday, which at least goes back to the early 60s, and I wrote some of it for the Spectator a while back. The American left has roots all the way back to the beginning of the 19th of the 20th century of despising American bourgeois culture, believing the average person's incompetent. I mean, Woodrow Wilson Said publicly that we have to have experts because normal people can't make decisions. And that process of thought has grown and mutated for over a century. It gained, in Lenin's sense, the commanding heights, the universities, the news media, the people from the universities began to infiltrate the corporations. So the 29 year old assistant to the president is totally left wing nutso and gets the president to do things stupid, like having a transvestite for, you know, for Bud Light. I mean, you go down and look at, you look at what was going on. But everybody thought that it was unavoidable, it was irritating. We wish it wasn't happening, but what can you do about it? Where Trump is sort of amazing is he knew, he intuited that among a huge bloc of Americans, much bigger than his vote actually, that people despised us. We do a project called the America's New Majority Project, which people can go to that website and we've been taking polling since 2018. And you ask questions, for example, should boys be in girls sports? 15% say yes. Should teachers control everything that happens to children with no knowledge of the parent? 15% say yes. You go down a whole series of these things and what you have is an AOC who's much more radical culturally than Bernie Sanders. I mean, Sanders is an old time left wing socialist. AOC's worldview, which is very central to the Democratic Party, has really become dominant, ultimately has a base so small that they're going to be crushed if they stay there. And what happened was Trump stood up starting really in 15 and 16 when his first attacks on illegal immigration horrified people. You may remember the first Fox debate where he got in this brutal knockdown with Megyn Kelly that. You flinched. I flinched. Calista flinched watching it on tv. I watched the Frank Luntz focus group. Everybody in the elite said he lost this debate. And I began looking at the various websites where people could vote and he was getting 70% in a field of 16. And by midnight that night, I thought, there is a phenomenon building here that none of us understand. And I think that Trump was tapping the root of people who are sick and tired of being told they have to suffer lies. And so I mean, just the act. And again, this is radical, the act of saying there are two sexes, male and female, biologically true, very different than the cultural issue of gender. But just the act of saying that was of course verboten. And people have now. And this is where Europeans are in deep trouble in Canada because the structures there, the elites are desperately clinging to power in order to impose lies on their, on their population. And in every single one of those countries, people are beginning to rebel in terms of populist movements.
- [28:38]
Mark
I know it's a mixed picture, but I'm going to ask you to answer binary. Is the American left adjusting to the reality that they're out of step on so many cultural issues and moving towards change? Or do you think they're more dug in and still have their eyes closed on things like trans athletes in women's girls sports?
- [28:57]
Historian/Political Analyst
You may be the best political reporter I know. So I'm going to venture out here and then you can explain to me whether I'm close to right. I believe they're heading towards a civil war. I believe that the rational, in a sense, AOC and Schumer is a perfect model. Schumer is the old time. Yes, I'm a liberal, but let's not be crazy.
- [29:19]
Brit Hume
Right.
- [29:19]
Historian/Political Analyst
AOC as well. If you're not crazy, you can't be a Democrat, you know, and I think, I think that it seems to me in place after place you're going to have that kind of a fight.
- [29:30]
Mark
All right. I appreciate your kind words. I don't know the answer to the question, so I can't help you going.
- [29:36]
Historian/Political Analyst
To tell me the answer now?
- [29:37]
Mark
I'm still working on it. All right. A couple of rapid rounds, because I know you like rapid rounds. First, I'm going to name two Democrats. You pick the one who you think is more likely to. To be their party's nominee for president in 2028. Binary choice. Just one name. Buttigieg or Newsom. Newsom Whitmer or Emanuel? Emanuel Shapiro or Newsom Shapiro. Klobucher or Ocasio Cortez?
- [30:07]
Historian/Political Analyst
Neither.
- [30:10]
Mark
Roana or Westmore.
- [30:13]
Historian/Political Analyst
More I like more very much.
- [30:15]
Mark
Really? Tell me why.
- [30:16]
Historian/Political Analyst
He's formidable.
- [30:18]
Mark
Tell me why.
- [30:19]
Historian/Political Analyst
He seems to have common sense and he seems to have an ability to talk to people in normal English. I mean, from what I've seen at least. Again, I'm not a student of his, but what I've seen, he's a very impressive person.
- [30:32]
Mark
Interesting. So. So it sounds like from what you said that you think he may be their front runner if he runs.
- [30:37]
Historian/Political Analyst
He could be. I mean, again, if he can put the money together. Because you're going to be up against people like Pritzker have the money to drown you.
- [30:45]
Mark
Yeah. I remain deeply skeptical of Governor Pritzker. The Illinois record just seems like a. Not a perfect calling card.
- [30:53]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, he's not a. I look at Pritzker thing, you know, not, not since President Taft have we had this kind of a candidate.
- [31:03]
Mark
Yeah, I'm not currently in a position to outrue, to rule out weight as a factor in qualification, so I, I cut him some slack. All right, word association, one or two words max for Trump figures. One or two words max. Here we go. Marco Rubio, brilliant job. Pete Heth, still learning. Scott Besant, remarkable. Stephen Miller, amazingly powerful. These are very good answers, by the way. AUDIENCE Susie Wiles, indispensable. Indispensable. These are very good answers. Okay. Michael Watley, chairman of the rnc.
- [31:48]
Historian/Political Analyst
Good job.
- [31:50]
Mark
Speaker Johnson, astonishing job.
- [31:53]
Historian/Political Analyst
Impossible. I can't imagine it.
- [31:56]
Mark
Yeah, it is kind of amazing. Okay. Cash Patel.
- [32:02]
Historian/Political Analyst
Growing.
- [32:04]
Mark
Okay. Pam Bondi.
- [32:09]
Historian/Political Analyst
Excellent choice.
- [32:10]
Mark
Excellent choice. All right. Don Jr. Amazingly influential. Charlie Kirk, equally amazingly influential. I'll give you the third one on that. TUCKER Carlson.
- [32:29]
Historian/Political Analyst
I don't understand it.
- [32:31]
Mark
Tell me, tell me, tell me about that.
- [32:33]
Historian/Political Analyst
I just, I mean, he seems to have a very strong grip on some.
- [32:36]
Mark
People, and I'm underwhelmed, underwhelmed by his.
- [32:40]
Historian/Political Analyst
Intellect, his policy, by his influence, by some of his attitudes, some of his views.
- [32:47]
Mark
How do you, how do you distinguish between him and Charlie?
- [32:53]
Historian/Political Analyst
Oh, I think Charlie's much less on the fringe than Tucker is.
- [32:57]
Mark
And do you have a personal relationship with Tucker?
- [32:59]
Historian/Political Analyst
No.
- [33:00]
Mark
No. That surprises me because, you know, most people like that.
- [33:05]
Historian/Political Analyst
I know a lot of people. We all have limits. How much time we have.
- [33:09]
Mark
Understood. Okay. Couple more. There's more. There's another White House person I want to ask you about. Oh.
- [33:17]
Historian/Political Analyst
Kevin Hassett, very smart and very helpful.
- [33:22]
Mark
Yeah. Is there, are there one or two people in the, in the government who you think are currently, who you think are unsung heroes who work in the administration?
- [33:33]
Historian/Political Analyst
Well, I mean, you have to thank Linda McMahon, who took on a job that turned to be radically harder than I'm sure I think she thought it would be.
- [33:41]
Mark
Right. Anybody else who you think is, is, is kind of a star who doesn't get sufficient attention?
- [33:51]
Historian/Political Analyst
No, I don't want to pick out any one person.
- [33:54]
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- [33:54]
Historian/Political Analyst
Okay.
- [33:55]
Mark
I want to ask you about AI because you've always been interested in the future and in technology. Do you look at it as more of a danger or more of, as an opportunity?
- [34:04]
Historian/Political Analyst
I look at it as a reality. It's like asking me about electricity in 1880 or the internal combustion engine in 1900. AI is coming. It's going to happen. It's going to be developed. It'll be developed all over the world whether we do it or not. And we don't fully understand it. In some ways it could be a threat. In other ways, it could be an enormous advantage. And I think that's a conversation we'll have for the next half century.
- [34:30]
Mark
How would you describe. I talked at the beginning of the program about asymmetrical advantages, and sometimes a party has one that's so large it can be part of being dispositive in an election. How would you describe the current relationship or the current balance of power between the left and the right? And regarding the media, and I'm defining the media Broadly, CBS News, TikTok, podcasts, who's got the advantage and how would you describe it?
- [34:56]
Historian/Political Analyst
I don't have quantitative data, but my sense is, from the polling we do, if you think of culture rather than politics, this country is clearly moving to the right, and it's moving to the right in reaction to its perception of the left. I mean, I thought in Trump's speech to the Congress, the brief section where he talks about merit, that we ought to hire on merit, we ought to promote on merit, which is a direct assault on the left's core cultural value, that you should not reward individualism, that that was an important cultural point when he went to Alabama and listed 10 things he'd learned in his life. They're all very conservative in a cultural sense. So from my perspective, what's happening is. And again, these are all old colleagues of yours. They have two problems. They don't understand in the big media. They don't understand that the culture and the technology are all making their world disappear. I mean, it's not even whether you're right or left. It's just irrelevant. And second, they don't realize that we now have this enormous capacity on the Internet for people to find each other and to pay attention to each other. I get. I have about 2.2 million followers on Facebook on X, smaller number on truth social media. But I'll. Some days I'm not quite Trump, but some days I'll post things and I'll get 40,000 likes. Well, I can write a letter to the editor or an article in the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post. I'm not sure I'm going to get 40,000 likes because I'm not sure people are going to pay attention.
- [36:43]
Mark
If I send you a link to this episode, would you post it on X?
- [36:47]
Mark Halperin
Sure, of course.
- [36:50]
Mark
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- [39:17]
Mark
All right, this next topic could take two hours, but we don't have it, so I'll ask it briefly and you can, you know, weigh in a little bit, but I know you have a lot of. I'm pretty sure have a lot of thoughts on this. You mentioned before authenticity and how we look at our friends who are not unshackled as we are. They're not an independent media, and they're not their authentic selves on camera or in their writing. Why not? Why can't they be unshackled on cable news or on broadcast television news? What is it that keeps them from doing what you and I are able to do now so freely?
- [39:48]
Female Broadcaster
Well, I think there's many answers to that. One is if you. Most of these people are Ivy League, you know, elite institution educated folks who. They've had a lifetime of good approval and coloring within the lines and making it in the proper spaces. And so that cultivates a certain, you know, I don't know, unwillingness to show vulnerability. They're only used to getting perfect A's and patted on the head.
- [40:15]
Mark
Playing by the rules.
- [40:17]
Female Broadcaster
Yeah. It takes a fair amount of courage, frankly, to. To get rid of that veneer. Many did not come up under somebody like Ailes who saw that in me, even though I'm not an elite institution person early on. But I was trying to be a perfectionist, saying that doesn't work on television and the audience can smell a phony from a mile away. And so I was given permission by my boss to let my guard down, and I did. But even then, I think people would say that you could see a big difference between me today and me while I was on fox. There's some constraints in the cable news universe on just how much of yourself you can and should show. The whole system's set up to be supportive of the platform. Not exactly. The anchor and the. The discussions are so clipped and surface level and cable. You don't have two hours to sit there and just meander and, like, think aloud and have a funny moment and drop a swear if it's authentic to you. You know, it's like the whole system set up to keep you in a box.
- [41:15]
Mark
Yeah. And so many of them and see this everywhere. They're just reading the prompter and they're waiting for the break, and then they're waiting for the next break, and then they're waiting for the show to end so they can leave. There's no sense of, I'm so excited to be here with my audience. I'm so excited to, to talk to you. And that's true of younger anchors and reporters, but it's true of some of the very experienced people. They don't seem to be actually in the moment enjoying what they're doing. And so it seems inauthentic.
- [41:39]
Female Broadcaster
It's true. And not just that, but Brit Hume used to say to me, there are a lot of news actresses in this business. You're not one of them. But it's true for men, too. They're news actors, too. These are like people who are failed Hollywood wannabes who settled for TV so they could see their mugs on television and feel. And they're not excited to be there. They just want to be a star. So for them, it's about a performance as opposed to, oh my gosh, I'm excited about the news. I can't wait to talk to you about the news, which I think is closer to how you feel about it. And me too. Either I'm excited about it or I need the show as my therapy. It's a catharsis to set the record straight on what's out there.
- [42:20]
Mark
Right. So you mentioned Brit. I had the honor of sitting next to Brit in the ABC News White House booth for the first year or so of the Clinton administration. And Brit is one of the, I'd say the top five people I learned from about broadcast television, how to be a broadcaster, but also how to navigate the complexities of working with 200 people to get a story on the air. I'll tell you my favorite Brit story. Brit used to work for the the investigative columnist Jack Anderson. And he said Jack Anderson told him that when you called someone's phone to call someone on the phone to try to get an interview with them, and back then you had to call someone's landline and assistant would answer and the assistant would say, may I tell Mr. So and so what it's in reference to Brit, said Jack Anderson. Tom to say mouth decent. And he said, they always call. They always called back. I learned a lot from Brett, including humor. And that's what I want to ask you about next because I study successful broadcasters and I think about what are the elements of their brand, what is it that people find appealing? And I listen to what people say they find appealing about you. You know, you're interesting, you're honest, you're authentic, you have a great nose for news, you know, where the interesting stuff is. But you're hilarious, okay? You're, you're, Your show is so funny. You are so funny. And so first I'm wondering what your comedy inspirations are. Either people in news or there comedians you like who, Whose style you maybe emulate or think about in animate you.
- [43:47]
Female Broadcaster
That's, that's very nice of you to say. Thank you. I would say no. There's, I mean, I love comedy and I love comedians, but there's nobody I style myself after. I would just say I come from a long line of funny people. They come by it naturally. And maybe some small percentage of that has rubbed off on me. My nana was hilarious. My mom is very funny, My brother's hysterical. And it was just, you know, it's like one of those Irish Catholic things where you sit around the kitchen table and you just mock each other mercilessly for your whole lives. So it comes naturally. And the news is just so ripe for humor. If you can, if you can keep that arm's distance between yourself and it, then, you know, it's one of those many days laugh or cry things. But I don't think I would enjoy the news anywhere as much as I do if I couldn't laugh at the absurdity of it. And I think that's one of the things that's helped me over the years. I remember one time the New York Times was doing a profile on my show when I was at Fox in primetime and I, I gave her a quote at the end of the show saying something like, we talked about ISIS and men in cages. I mean, it was the worst of the ISIS times and we had a lot of laughs. And somehow, you know, we were able to do that in our 42 minutes of content on the air here and there. And now I, you know, here I try to do the same. You know, you got to keep laughing.
- [44:58]
Mark
All right. If you think about not current day comedians, but like Lucille Ball, Joan Rivers, Ernie Kovacs, who's like a classic comedian whose style.
- [45:07]
Female Broadcaster
And I love Joan Rivers. I absolutely adore Joan Rivers. I know there's so many. I mean, Andrew Schultz right now is so funny. He's so raunchy but hilarious. I absolutely love him. Tim Dillon's hysterical. You know, I love Sebastian Maniscalco, Jim Brewer, he's so good. I like, you know, I like a little raunchy, a little off color. For sure. There have been a lot. I love the comedy seller. I go there. Gnome's a great guy. So more of that the better. And just grew up watching those, like mash. We watch that all the time. The Jeffersons, all. All these classic comedies that were on in, in our, in our house growing up.
- [45:47]
Mark
Growing up. And when you started in news, do you consider yourself to be a funny person?
- [45:53]
Female Broadcaster
I wouldn't go that far. I would say I have a very healthy sense of humor, but I don't really think I'm actively funny. I mean, I'm good for a laugh here or there.
- [46:02]
Mark
I'm going to build a clip reel of your funniest moments from the last two weeks, and I think I'll be able to make the compelling case that you are a very funny person. All right. When you think about just broadcasting skills, who, who, who have you learned from? Who is either by example or instruction, who has taught you how to be a great broadcaster?
- [46:19]
Female Broadcaster
Well, I would definitely say Brit's been a huge influence, same as you point out. He taught me the nuts and bolts of being a good reporter and being relentlessly factual and upgrading your information, keeping it tight, all of that, and just never stop questioning the lines in your report. Can they be better? Can they be tighter? Can they be more right than they are right now? And his wife Kim, too, is a mentor.
- [46:41]
Mark
Fritz, one of the best TV script writers in the history of the medium.
- [46:44]
Female Broadcaster
Yeah. And merciless in a great way. You know, that's what I hope my team would say about me. I'm merciless in a great way, too, I think, because I don't let up on them. You know, we're working on this AM update show, which we do every day, and my poor producer, I love her, she's great, but I'm just relentless on her. Like, no, no, no, we can, we can upgrade, we can do better. But it's toward service of the audience. That's how Brit was in terms of role models. There's nobody better in my view. Like, there's the person I admired most, he's no longer with us, but by far was Mike Wallace. I just thought that's it right there. That's how it should be done, with charisma and fortitude and the willingness to challenge anybody, but in a way where you could get away with it, you know, like, you didn't have to emerge with the jugular, but you kind of did. But still, there was a gentlemanly dynamic between Wallace and most of his guests, which I admired. It's very, very tricky. So I really love him.
- [47:40]
Mark
Did you spend time with him or. That's just studying him on camera.
- [47:42]
Female Broadcaster
It's just studying him. I didn't. I mean, I know his son Chris Wallace fairly well or did when I was at Fox, but loved him when I was very young. I loved Oprah and the young Oprah was great. She was a great, great, great interviewer. That was before she got completely drunk on her own wine, became hard, partisan. And then now in today's day and age, has totally overestimated her current day relevance. So my love affair with the old Oprah is over, but it doesn't diminish her early work and how talented she was.
- [48:09]
Mark
Totally agree. If you go back and look, even when she was in Baltimore as a local anchor, she was an incredible communicator and her sense of how to communicate and sort of engage the audience was phenomenal. Is there anybody today on the air who you think is a, is a, is a very compelling broadcaster?
- [48:28]
Female Broadcaster
Well, I like Jesse Waters on Fox a lot. Like, I. That's the one show that's on TV news, like cable news right now that I would watch. I can't think of.
- [48:37]
Mark
What do you think? I'm not. What would you list as Jesse's brand? Besides humor is obviously a big part of it.
- [48:44]
Historian/Political Analyst
He.
- [48:44]
Female Broadcaster
Yeah. And he's, he, he too knows what the news target is. He's good at finding himself right over the right, the proper target and approaches it with cleverness and factual, you know, backup. And he's pretty fearless, which is important in today's day and age.
- [48:59]
Mark
All right, how am I doing asking you questions you've never been asked? 50%.
- [49:02]
Female Broadcaster
You're doing very well.
- [49:03]
Mark
All right, here we go. Let's keep going. This is the, this is what we call skillful. This is what we call the rapid round human interest section. Who is living you've never met, who you'd like to meet and why Living.
- [49:14]
Female Broadcaster
Never met. I mean, I, I'm sorry, but it's Meghan Markle. She and I need to sit down across from one another and we will break the Internet.
- [49:20]
Mark
Can I come to that? I'll be your graphics PA or I'll help with hair and makeup. I would like to be there for that.
- [49:26]
Female Broadcaster
Have you come to. Everybody would watch that.
- [49:28]
Mark
Have you come close to meeting her?
- [49:30]
Female Broadcaster
Well, I should have gone. I was in the time 100 this year and she was too, which is also ridiculous. And they invited me to go to this, like, summit the day before where they interview you about how important you are. And I said no. And naturally she said yes. So we could have crossed paths if I had just been more self Aggrandizing.
- [49:48]
Mark
Do you have your booking request in?
- [49:52]
Female Broadcaster
I gotta be honest, I haven't actually submitted that because the futility of it seems obvious, so.
- [49:57]
Mark
Well, so you're saying the person you'd most like to meet, you haven't even asked to meet, even though you could.
- [50:01]
Female Broadcaster
No, no. It's one of those things where it might be too important to me to continue to be able to make fun of her. Like, I don't know if I could make up or, like, patch things up or somehow be wooed by her Mark. Because being able to mock her is too important to me.
- [50:16]
Mark
I've never met her, but I think the chances that she would melt your heart and win you over are de minimis.
- [50:21]
Female Broadcaster
I think you're right.
- [50:22]
Mark
I would say. All right, what's a place you've never been that you'd like to go and why?
- [50:28]
Female Broadcaster
I'd love to go to Japan.
- [50:30]
Mark
You've never been to Japan?
- [50:31]
Female Broadcaster
I've never been to Asia. And, you know where else, though, domestically? I've never been to the Pacific Northwest. Never? Never. Seattle. Portland.
- [50:39]
Mark
These are massive holes, man.
- [50:41]
Female Broadcaster
I know. I know. I haven't had a lot of time.
- [50:43]
Mark
I've been to pan, like, 25 times. It's my favorite place. It's my favorite place in the world. Let's. Let's all go. Let's take the kids and. And I'll show you around.
- [50:52]
Female Broadcaster
Let's make it an MK Media excursion.
- [50:54]
Mark
Best architecture, best food, best service, economy. It's an incredible place.
- [50:59]
Female Broadcaster
Yeah. It's definitely on my bucket list.
- [51:01]
Mark
Yeah. All right. All right. It takes a little while to get there, by the way.
- [51:04]
Female Broadcaster
So I hear.
- [51:05]
Mark
All right. What is the greatest movie of all time?
- [51:11]
Female Broadcaster
I mean, are we talking my favorite or just definitively the greatest movie?
- [51:15]
Mark
Your fate. Your greatest. For you. What is your.
- [51:18]
Female Broadcaster
My favorite movie of all time is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.
- [51:21]
Mark
The original. The original.
- [51:23]
Female Broadcaster
I've never even seen the imitations. I refuse.
- [51:25]
Mark
How are you imitating the Wonka in the final scene? Near the final scene when Charlie walks in and he says, good day, sir. Can you do that?
- [51:35]
Female Broadcaster
He says, you bumped into the ceiling, which now has to be cleaned and sterilized, so you get nothing.
- [51:42]
Mark Halperin
You lose.
- [51:45]
Female Broadcaster
And also, good day shines a good deed in a weary world.
- [51:49]
Mark
Yeah.
- [51:49]
Female Broadcaster
That's a sweet moment.
- [51:51]
Mark
Are you so in love with that movie that you can differentiate between the Oompa Loompas or. They're all pretty much the same.
- [51:56]
Female Broadcaster
I can differentiate. I've actually spoken with one of the Oompa Loompas, if you must know. And I watched the whole movie four years ago next to the real Veruca Salt.
- [52:08]
Mark
Come on, Julie.
- [52:09]
Female Broadcaster
Don Cole, who's now all grown up and living in London. And she came to my hotel and we watched it together. We decorated the whole thing with Willy Wonka apparatus and we kicked balloons together, like she does in that one.
- [52:22]
Mark
Is there video of that? Is there a video?
- [52:24]
Female Broadcaster
Yes, I'll give it to you.
- [52:24]
Mark
You can.
- [52:25]
Female Broadcaster
You can lay it in here. We sang her song I Want It All. I mean, I peaked. That was it. I had peaked. It was my 50th birthday present.
- [52:33]
Mark
All right, based on that, I think I might know the answer. But let's say Charlie was not eligible to win. Of the other kids, who was most deserving?
- [52:41]
Female Broadcaster
Oh, wow. Well, no, it wasn't Veruca for sure. She was the worst. Not a good arguable. I guess I'd have to go with Mike tv. I mean, what did he do? Mike tv? Just watched a bunch of tv. Like, that's really bad.
- [52:53]
Mark
How's your Mike TV imitation?
- [52:59]
Female Broadcaster
I'm trying to think. He had a lift, so you'd have to incorporate that.
- [53:04]
Mark
Yeah.
- [53:05]
Female Broadcaster
Dad says I can't have a real one now. Tier 12 son. Something like that.
- [53:10]
Mark
Not bad. Did you have a favorite of the grandparents?
- [53:14]
Female Broadcaster
Well, of course. It's Grandpa Joe. I mean, the other three just sat in the bed. They didn't even try to get up. So that was sad. But I do love the parents who are brought along on the tour inside the Wonka factory. You know, there's little lines that I just constantly throw out, like, rock mon and off. You know, like, you boil him up. I know it. There's so many great ones from that that I. I could recite the whole thing from memory when I watch it. You know, like, I know every line. And the bargain that my family makes with me is. Don't do that. Stop doing that. It's annoying.
- [53:44]
Mark
I. I believe I remember correctly, you do not fancy yourself a singer. Am I right about that?
- [53:49]
Female Broadcaster
No, no. I. I think I have a decent speaking voice and I have an absolutely terrible singing voice.
- [53:55]
Brit Hume
All right.
- [53:55]
Mark
The last thing I'll say about Wonka is when the elevator breaks through the roof, I. I chills every time it happens. Every time I watch, it just chills.
- [54:05]
Female Broadcaster
Well, Mark. And you know what else is so great? I mean, it's just there's so much to love about the movie. I mean, I think one of the reasons I love it so much is because I watched It. When I was a kid, and I watched it a lot after my dad died when I was 15. And it kind of reminds me of a time where, I don't know, I was just feeling connected with my family.
- [54:22]
Mark
Yeah.
- [54:22]
Female Broadcaster
And it's about the, you know, terrible people getting their comeuppance and good people getting rewarded for their goodness. So there's a basic morality to it as well. But the. The last line of the movie is Wonka saying to Charlie Bucket, don't forget what happens to the boy who suddenly got everything he always wanted.
- [54:42]
Mark
Yeah.
- [54:43]
Female Broadcaster
He lived happily ever after.
- [54:45]
Mark
Yeah.
- [54:45]
Female Broadcaster
And I think about that all the time. Like, if you just persevere. Right. If you. If you are a good person, if you don't chase false gods, if you just live by your own moral code to the best of your ability. I believe that last line. I believe it's possible.
- [55:01]
Mark
It's the Wonka life lesson. All right, two more Wonka things. First, I am so loyal to the original in general, and I have no use for the. What's that guy's name?
- [55:10]
Female Broadcaster
Johnny Depp.
- [55:11]
Mark
No use to Johnny Depp. But I will tell you, Chalamet is pretty good. If you don't consider it, like, you know, a blight on the original. Chalamet's pretty good. Last thing. I love to play the version, the equivalent of the Newlywed Game between anchors and their producers. I love to see when they. So here's my question. We're doing. Have just one question. Will Steve Krakauer say after this, I can't believe Mark wasted 10 minutes talking about Wonka. Or will he say, this thing is awesome. It's going to go viral? Which do you think Steve will say?
- [55:40]
Female Broadcaster
The latter. He'll love it.
- [55:41]
Mark
He'll love it.
- [55:42]
Historian/Political Analyst
Okay.
- [55:42]
Mark
Steve, are you on? Steve, are you there? I'm Chime in. I can't wait to find out. All right, last two. Because we're up against the clock, as happens even. Even on the Internet. What was the biggest break of your career? And I don't want you to say when you. Fox hired you, because that's too easy. Besides.
- [55:56]
Female Broadcaster
No, it wasn't. That wasn't the biggest break anyway. It was when I had. When I had made a resume tape, but no one knew who I was. I had no connections in news. I was just a frustrated lawyer. I didn't know what to do. And I was. I had one of those moments where I was like, I'm never gonna get into news. I'm 32, which I thought was old, and I'm like, I know nobody. And then one day, Mark, I stayed home and I almost never, ever call home sick, call in sick to work during my law career or as a TV broadcaster, I really genuinely have to be throwing up all day for me not to go to work. And I was, and I had on Lifetime Television, Mark Halperin. Yes, it's true. I was living in Baltimore, Maryland, and I watched the Jessica Savage story on Lifetime tv. And it was that story of this amazing broadcaster who came up in the time of Connie Chung, who made it in a man's world when it was impossible to do so. And she did it. And I thought, you know what? If she could do it then, why can't I do it now? And I started cold calling news directors. And it was Bill Lord, who is the news director at wjla, the ABC affiliate in Washington, which also happened to have a lesser known K Boo Channel 8. Maybe I could. Yeah, I thought maybe I could get hired at News Channel 8, not even realizing that there was a chance he could put me on abc. And that guy, I agree. I convinced him to let me drop off my resume in person, which was huge because I knew, given my nine years of law practice, I could talk my way into the job. And I did. That was the biggest break.
- [57:35]
Mark
What's the biggest break you've had since you left NBC?
- [57:40]
Female Broadcaster
Hmm. I mean, I guess, look, if they didn't have the madness of the George Floyd mania in 2020, I might still be sitting on the couch. It was the insanity that the. That the country came under that got me up and off my couch and willing to broadcast in my children's playroom with no video camera and two listeners. So in a way, that was a break for me, that the news cycle, right, came in and just touched on all these things that are really important to me, like fairness and justice and due process and facts about cops that were being misrepresented left and right, that I got off that couch and started what turned out to be a good show.
- [58:18]
Mark
Finally. I know you've never been asked this one. What's your best advice for me in succeeding in this world?
- [58:26]
Female Broadcaster
Well, you're an excellent interviewer. That's. I think you just proved that. But I think you're. The thoughts on the news and politics are what people are going to tune in for. So if I were you, I'd open, and I know you've been doing a lot of this, but I would open every show with at least 20 minutes of what Mark Halperin thinks about the news stories because everybody will listen to that.
- [58:49]
Mark
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- [60:34]
Mark Halperin
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- [61:02]
Brit Hume
All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
- [61:07]
Mark
What's your human intelligence tell you about how you take advantage of where he might be vulnerable to beat him?
- [61:14]
Mark Halperin
I take him off the field. I take him off the field. You know, this is the thing. You know, I Remember in the 1980s and a lot of Republicans like myself took great glee at Democrats calling, you know, Ronald Reagan an idiot, a B list actor. The fascist gun in the west back in 1980 wins a man. He wins a landslide. 1984, it's the same thing. He's too old, he's too hobbled. He can't win 1984. He wins 49 of 50 states. But it doesn't end there. They continue attacking Ronald Reagan, and I would laugh. He's not even running again and you're still attacking him. And Reagan leaves with a 60% plus approval rating. But it didn't stop there. The obsession on Reagan continued. It still continues. People still come on my show today and they will attack Ronald Reagan. Every problem that ever began began with Ronald Reagan. You had great authors. You had people like Edmund Morris, who wrote the most extraordinary biographies about Teddy Roosevelt. I believe he won Pulitzer Prize. Then he was allowed to write. Then he was allowed to write Ronald Reagan's, and it was authorized. And he just lost his mind. He started making up characters and making up. Rick Perlstein did the same thing. Nixon Land and Before the Storm are two of the greatest. He's a liberal, but they're two of the greatest works of history on the rise of the conservative movement in America that I've read. Our friend Pat Buchanan said the same thing about it, and then he wrote a book about Nixon and he just lost the plot.
- [63:04]
Mark
So how does that, how does that apply? How does that apply to how Democrats should talk about Trump now?
- [63:10]
Mark Halperin
Why fight against Ronald Reagan when you can fight against Congressman Quimby? Right. From Hackensack.
- [63:20]
Mark
Yeah.
- [63:20]
Mark Halperin
Or from, from, from, from, you know, Western Des Moines or wherever they're from. Don't go after unless it's in the primary. If you're in the primary, go ahead, run against Donald Trump. You get to the general election, you don't want to have anything to do with Donald Trump. It's like the Iraq war. At some point, I just told people, I'm just not going to debate the Iraq war anymore. We've done it for 10 years. You have your views, I have my views. It's the same thing with Donald Trump. Everybody has their hardened positions. And you're not running against Donald Trump. You're running against Congressman Quimby, who is no, Donald Trump. And you'll be able to bend him. Republicans don't win usually when Donald Trump's not at the top of the ticket, take him completely out of the race. If you're a boxer and you have the choice to fight against Muhammad Ali or Chuck Wepner or Jerry Cooney, go with Cooney.
- [64:23]
Mark
Go with Cooney.
- [64:24]
Mark Halperin
You want to go with the bleeders? You want to fight the bleeders? If you have a chance to fight Mike Tyson or Michael Spinks. Michael Spinks won a gold medal, but he also got the hell beat out of him by Mike Tyson. Stay away from those guys.
- [64:40]
Mark
What makes Trump. What makes Trump Muhammad Ali? What skills does he have that makes you say, don't take him on?
- [64:46]
Mark Halperin
Well, I mean, it depends on what you know. Gallup will have him in the 30s. Quinnipiac has him in the 30s. Others still have him in 45%. I have no idea how Donald Trump's still sitting at 45% with, you know, with all the things that have happened over the past decade from January six to the Qatari jets, to crypto coins, etc.
- [65:08]
Mark
But you do have some idea. You do have some idea.
- [65:10]
Mark Halperin
Well, part of it is Trump's innate skills to flood the zone with disinformation, to overwhelm, to constantly know how to play the media. But what I'm saying is push that to the side. You don't have to deal with that because you're not running against Donald Trump in 26. You're not fighting against Tyson in 26. You're not fighting Against Ali in 26. You're fighting against Chuck Webner. And he's no Muhammad Ali. Now, this, by the way, for people that are old, you'll know who Chuck Webner is. He fought Ali. It didn't end well.
- [65:49]
Mark
He's in Google. He's in ChatGPT. Don't worry.
- [65:53]
Mark Halperin
He also made the COVID of Sports Illustrated saying he was going to beat Muhammad Ali. He did. But you have a chance, though, right? You have a chance to run against the individual members of Congress, the individual senators, the individual state legislators, and again, use Donald Trump to raise money in the primary, et cetera, et cetera. But once you get to the general election, it's baked in the cake. And there are many things I do not understand how he continues to do as well as he did. But that's not a Democrat's problem anymore unless they're fighting him in Washington, D.C. on these issues.
- [66:33]
Mark
Right?
- [66:33]
Mark Halperin
If he or she are running for Congress or the state legislature or the governor's Governorship, look forward. What are you going to do over the next four years when Donald Trump's out of office? And I think Democrats will have a much better chance of winning instead of being obsessed on trying to crack the code on Donald Trump.
- [66:53]
Mark
So people running for office since 2060 say, Focus on your Republican opponent in the general, not Trump. What about people thinking of running for president? Should they be a Democrat? Should they be talking about Trump? Or should they similarly move on and talk about the Republicans?
- [67:06]
Historian/Political Analyst
No.
- [67:06]
Mark Halperin
No, again, because Trump is so baked into the cake again. It's like the Iraq war. Nobody's going to change their mind about Donald Trump. And we keep thinking this is going to happen and this will. This is when the walls are closing in on Donald Trump's probably said 87 times. No, no, the walls aren't going to close in on Donald Trump. And that's not your concern. Your concern is getting elected to Congress. Your concern is winning the House of Representatives. Your concern is, is taking over the committees and by doing so, being able to stop a lot of what Republicans are doing. And see what I just said there? I didn't talk about Donald Trump. I talked about Republicans. Because these Republican senators and congressmen and congresswoman, they're the ones who are responsible for giving massive tax cuts to the richest Americans, the biggest multinational corporations, the people that run tech monopolies while slashing health care for people in rural America. They voted. Without that vote, it would have never passed. So focus on them and keep landing those body blows, those political body blows. And Democrats have a great chance of really doing well in 26.
- [68:31]
Mark
All right, so let's take it back from the midterms to where we are now. Trump's doing a bunch of stuff. And again, I'm just curious, how do you think the Democrats should approach this? To either beat him or to not take him on. He's going after universities. Is that a fight Democrats should have? And if so, what should they say about it? What should they say about it?
- [68:49]
Mark Halperin
Well, it's very simple. I mean, do you like winning? I mean, maybe Americans are sick of winning. Maybe they're sick of America having the strongest economy on the planet. Maybe they're sick and tired of us winning Nobel Prizes and having one breakthrough after another in science, in medicine, in technology, in all the things that America has dominated since 1945. If you're sick of that, then go ahead and go along with the Republicans and continue allowing university funding to be slashed. But the fact is, the economic engine of America, including its victory in World War II that came out of Detroit, but that also came out of research on college campuses that helped us beat the Japanese, helped us beat the Germans. It's insane.
- [69:46]
Mark
It's insane. R and D. So what about when Maggot says, so you're defending Harvard values.
- [69:54]
Mark Halperin
I'm defending American values. I want the best and the brightest to do research. I want to hold Harvard accountable where Harvard needs to be held accountable. But at the same time, it's a private institution. And because of that, Harvard can run its campus the way it wants to run its campus. But if it gets funding from the federal government, it is fair to say, yes, there will be some strings attached, but don't cut medical research for Alzheimer's, don't cut medical research for cancer, for all of these other things.
- [70:33]
Mark
Right. So sometimes one has to say the right thing, even if it's politically losing. But whether history will punish Donald Trump for cutting university funding and making all these Ivy League schools and others jump through hoops, whether history will punish them, Trump's getting his way now. These universities are bending the knee to him. So if you're someone who thinks this is bad, that's a loss. Is it a winnable fight? In other words, the rhetoric you're using is what some Democrats are saying. Is that a winnable fight? And if it's not a winnable fight, should Democrats keep at it?
- [71:05]
Mark Halperin
Well, yes, they should keep at it, because the fight will continue. You certainly, you can say, there are a lot of things that I disagree. And by the way, I say it all the time. There are a lot of things that Harvard has done through the years that I think are just absolutely crazy. At the same time, I don't want the federal government because I'm a conservative. I don't want the federal government telling Harvard what to teach in classrooms.
- [71:28]
Mark
Right, but just Harvard.
- [71:30]
Mark Halperin
But just at one point, that's up to private. That's up to private institutions. What we really, the small government Republicans support the federal government of the federal behemoth going into classrooms and telling people what they can teach students. That's insane.
- [71:47]
Mark
But just the one point you've made a couple of times now. Again, it's sophisticated and subtle, but I've never heard another Democrat, a Democratic elected official, say, well, there are things that Harvard does that I disagree with, even on their failure to protect their Jewish students, even supporters of Israel who are Democrats. That's the missing piece. All right, what about what he's doing with law firms, by the way?
- [72:11]
Mark Halperin
By the way, I want to go back because Again, I'm a conservative, and I believe in free markets. I believe in free choice. Let me tell you, first of all, they have a responsibility to protect Jewish students on campus. They have a responsibility to protect Muslim students on campus, Catholic students on campus, conservatives, they have that responsibility. Beyond that, if they want to be woke, if they want to do what they've been doing for the past 20, 30, 40 years and be woke, well, you know what parents can do, what parents have started to do over the past four or five years. When I first moved to Connecticut, I talked to the parents. Where are your kids going to school? Oh, they're going to Yale, they're going to Harvard, they're going to B.C. they're going here, they're going to Georgetown.
- [72:57]
Mark
Right.
- [72:58]
Mark Halperin
I ask the same question now. You know what they say? They're going to Georgia, they're going to smu, they're going to Wake Forest, they're going to Virginia, they're going to. They're voting with their feet. And that's what happens in the free market. Right. If Harvard can't figure that out, if Yale can't figure that out, if. If other schools can't figure that out, they will lose students like they're losing right now. And we don't need the federal government doing that. We need federal government saying, you got to protect your Jewish students, you got to protect your Muslim students, you got to protect your Catholic students, you got to protect conservatives, progressives, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we don't want the federal government telling professors what to teach. That there's nothing conservative about that. That's lunacy.
- [73:40]
Mark
What about speaking up on behalf of a group that can't be particularly popular? America's big law firms. Is that the fight Democrats should pick or just let Trump do?
- [73:49]
Mark Halperin
God, yes, God.
- [73:51]
Mark
What do you say about that?
- [73:53]
Brit Hume
Okay.
- [73:54]
Mark Halperin
The rule of law I figured out as a congressman when I traveled around the world. I didn't know this when I first went in there, despite the fact I was. I was an attorney. There are a lot of things that make America extraordinary. But one of the things that really lays a foundation for, for this extraordinary American experiment and the reason our, our constitutional republic has survived the way it has, has been the rule of law. And you can't have presidents, you can't have politicians going in and, and intimidating law firms to not represent certain people because the president or the House Majority leader or somebody else doesn't like that. And so that cuts away at the heart of the rule of law. So let Me name one more issue that I think Democrats should talk about, and I've had a lot of Democrats. Oh, we don't want to talk about this because people don't like foreign aid. Are you kidding me? The slashing of USAID is such a tragedy. You got the richest man in the world wielding a chainsaw, literally proposing cuts that are killing the poorest children on the planet. And not only that gives us a soft power that anybody that's ever been in the White House understands is extraordinarily important. Just about anybody that's ever been a diplomat understands is extraordinarily important. Not just because all of those tons of food that go to these countries have the American flag on it, but because we also get great intel on what the Chinese are doing, on what the Russians are doing.
- [75:56]
Mark
But is that a win? Is that a winning political issue or just an important point to fight for?
- [76:00]
Mark Halperin
You know what I found, Mark, is if I care about it and I'm passionate about it and I talk about it and it means a lot to me, what I find is it's very easy for me to go into town hall meetings and make other people care about it. And so, yeah, soft power is, is, is extraordinarily important to talk about. When, when we're slashing foreign aid, when we're slashing taking care of, of the poorest of God's creatures. At the same time, we're taking down the antennas of Voice of America. At the same time we're gutting our diplomatic core. At the same time, we're cutting at the very heart of America's ability to tell our story across the globe. All of that works together and undermines soft power, which undermines the power of the United States of America. You know, not everything, not everything is determined by the latest billion dollar weapons system. A lot of times it's just the relationships that you're building on the ground.
- [77:06]
Mark
You know, Donald Trump and you're not discombobulated by him. And this phrase, Trump derangement syndrome can be overstated, but I find a lot of Democrats react, whether it's on social media or on the House floor or on a TV interview, they react seemingly discombobulated. And again, a shorthand for that can be Trump Derangement syndrome. So if you, I don't know if you agree with that view or not, but how should Democrats think about whether to react to Trump and separate a winning issue or a vitally important issue from their visceral reaction to they just don't like the guy and he, he triggers them into sometimes saying more or different than they should say, well, if I can.
- [77:44]
Mark Halperin
If I can humbly suggest this to my Democratic friends, yeah, they can look at it the way that Mika and I looked at it after the election. We thought Donald Trump said a lot of extraordinarily dangerous things. We thought he said things that would, if implemented, would make America a weaker place, make America a more dangerous place, make America a meaner place. And then there was an election, and 78 million Americans disagreed with us. And so at that point, you're like, okay, well, 78 million Americans disagree with us. People always say, you know, hey, would you have changed anything you said about Donald Trump? No, I wouldn't have changed. Said anything I said about Donald Trump during the campaign. But you look forward and you go, we've been lecturing Republicans for four years about respecting the outcome of the elections. We have to respect the outcome of the election. And this is where the American people are. And it doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything that Donald Trump says. But what it does mean is if Democrats ever want to take power again, they've got to get some of those Trump voters voting for them. Here's what I think is the underlying problem, Mark, and it's something that I've seen since first running for Congress. It's something I've seen through today. Democrats want to be right. Republicans want to win. And Bill Clinton, what did he say?
- [79:28]
Mark
Better to be strong and wrong than right and weak.
- [79:31]
Mark Halperin
Strong and wrong than right and weak. I think you can be right and you can still win. But I would just say, and it would help Democrats to understand that Donald Trump is the master of distraction, of flooding the zone, of getting you off the points that you want to talk about, the things that you think are the most important. And being angry, showing. Well, that sure didn't work. Leading, leading into the 24 election. Let the Republicans be angry. Let the Republicans be pissed off. Let the Republicans be the champions of separating mothers from their children, of, of, of grabbing people off of college campuses and throwing them in jail illegally. Let, Let Republicans do that. Call it out, but tell Americans what your vision for America is and why what they're doing is wrong. And again, the goal is, at the end of the day, get it back to affordability. We just had an inflation number come out today. Inflation's going to continue going up, most likely. It's certainly what the Fed's concerned about. It's what the numbers suggest. Americans still, if you look, Donald Trump scores, even polls where Donald Trump may be at 44, 45% approval rating. He's in the 30s on inflation. He's in the 30s on affordability. That's again going back to the old boxing analogy. That's where you beat Gerry Cooney or Richard, the Princeton College boxing champion. You don't go up against Ali. You go up against the congressman or congresswoman you're running against. And you hammer them on affordability. You hammer them on the tax cuts they gave to the richest people on the planet and slashing health care for the poorest of Americans and also for working Americans in the rural countryside.
- [81:41]
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- [81:57]
Mark Halperin
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