Gavin Newsom’s New 2028 Playbook, Democratic Voter Decline, and Fighting Cancer, with Michael Caputo

Summary

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Next Up with Mark Halperin – Episode Summary

"Gavin Newsom’s New 2028 Playbook, Democratic Voter Decline, and Fighting Cancer, with Michael Caputo"

Date: August 21, 2025
Host: Mark Halperin (MK Media)
Guests: Michael Caputo, Mark Pryor

Overview

In this episode, Mark Halperin explores three interwoven themes central to today’s American politics: Gavin Newsom’s transformative playbook for 2028, the Democratic Party’s registration and engagement crisis, and the personal resilience of Michael Caputo—who faced both cancer and “cancellation” simultaneously. Halperin brings his characteristic mix of reported analysis, candid debate, and personal storytelling, delivering both a deep look at Democratic strategy and an unfiltered window into life’s hardest battles.

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I. Gavin Newsom: The New 2028 Playbook

Starts at [00:31]

Main Theme

Mark Halperin argues Gavin Newsom has emerged as the Democratic frontrunner for 2028 due to his action-oriented, attention-grabbing, and authentic approach—mirroring some tactics pioneered by Donald Trump. Halperin urges listeners from both political camps not to write Newsom off or to fall for partisan myths, but to see his evolution as a sign of broader changes in American politics.

Key Discussion Points

• Newsom’s Rise and Strategy

  • Newsom is now, according to Halperin and others, “alone in Tier 1” for Democrats in 2028 and having the best summer of any prospective candidate ([01:10]).
  • Focused on action, especially via social media, often confronting the White House and using humor, sarcasm, and AI-generated memes to “own the right” ([07:30]-[09:00]).
  • “The three A’s: Action, Attention, Authenticity”—Halperin credits this as the formula Newsom and, earlier, Trump mastered:

    “Action: do stuff... Attention: get the country to look at you... Authenticity: show who you really are.” ([05:23])

• Mocking Trump, Embracing the Fight

  • Newsom frequently adopts Trump-like social media tactics—“all caps, mocking language, humor”—and signs off, “Thank you for your attention to this matter.” ([07:44])
  • Example: Newsom’s response to Bed Bath & Beyond’s criticism of California; he clapped back with public sarcasm, not private negotiation ([14:18]).

    Bed Bath & Beyond press release: “...not going to open up any new retail stores in California because of high taxes, high fees and forced unsustainable wages.” Newsom on X: “The company that already went bankrupt and closed every store across the country two years ago. Okay.”

  • Halperin notes: “He’s not doing the standard thing. That’s what the mood of the electorate is. They don’t want business as usual.” ([15:09])

• Criticism and Pushback

  • Newsom paints Trump as “an invasive species... completely different,” pledging to fight back with the full weight of California ([08:03]).

    Gavin Newsom: “...we’re going to punch back...with the consent of the people... We will do the right thing and push back and succeed this November.” ([08:03])

  • White House reaction is fierce. Trump’s advisor Steven Chung called Newsom’s posts “unhinged,” saying, “What a vile piece of shit. Gfy.” ([08:53])

  • Fox News and conservative pundits argue Newsom is imitating, not originating, Trump’s digital style, and question his authenticity.

    JD Vance (on Fox): “If the Democrats [were authentic], they’d do a hell of a lot better. But now...this is just gimmicky.” ([10:56])

• Dismissing Myths about Newsom

  • Halperin systematically debunks the four “myths” often used against Newsom ([17:27]):
    1. Newsom is “super liberal” on everything.
    2. He’s a “pretty boy” who doesn’t know policy.
    3. California is a "failed state" under his watch.
    4. He is certain to run for president.
  • Newsom, on being labeled hyper-liberal:

    “I’m a pragmatist...an entrepreneurial mindset. The notion that I’m a wild haired liberal is just nonsense. On progressive social issues, I stand tall and firm...” ([17:53])

  • On family and running for president:

    “I had my oldest daughter last night...almost in tears because she can’t take it anymore...” ([23:31])

• Reality Check: Is the Strategy Working?

  • Despite media enthusiasm, Halperin challenges whether voters are as energized by the digital “fight.” Polling only gives Newsom a slight edge over Kamala Harris in California ([24:31]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gavin Newsom jokes about criticism from Fox News, with Mark Halperin and influencers laughing:

  Newsom: “I mean, even poor Kid Rock...These folks at Fox, they’re like, ‘Oh, this is so unbecoming of a governor’...And meanwhile, they sit there reading [Trump’s] TWEETS every single day. Are they that tonally out of touch?” ([12:08])

• Halperin’s closing judgment on Newsom:

  “He’s a guy who’s on a great roll with this new social media strategy...letting his inner authentic self show...letting it rip in an authentic way against Donald Trump...He’s not as great as his supporters say, not as bad as his critics think.” ([30:37])

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II. Democratic Party’s Voter Crisis & the Path Ahead

Begins at [34:06] with Mark Pryor Interview

Main Theme

Former Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor joins to reflect on the Democratic Party’s slide in the South, the party’s broader struggle to register and energize voters, and the lessons from a more bipartisan era.

Key Discussion Points

• Arkansas: Past Democratic Titans, Present Red State

  • Pryor recalls an era when Arkansas’s leaders—his father David Pryor, Dale Bumpers, and Bill Clinton—were respected across the aisle and prioritized policy over partisanship ([34:46]).

    “I wish our politics could get back to that. I wish we could decrease the volume and really lower the priority for the party and really focus more on policy and what’s best and what’s right.” – Mark Pryor ([35:35])

  • Democrats produced “quality candidates” who haven’t yet broken the GOP lock in the state but are getting closer ([37:22]).

• New Models and Candidates

  • Pryor and Halperin discuss Graham Platner, a new Democratic Senate candidate in Maine, who is making waves with an authentic, working-class appeal untouched by political polish ([41:05]).

    Pryor, on Graham Platner: “He’s touching on so many things...people have that feeling our democracy has lost something...it is controlled by billionaires, and politicians are not listening.” ([41:48])

• Donors Crossing the Aisle

  • The Susan Collins conundrum: prominent Democratic donors in Hollywood fundraising for the moderate GOP Senator ([44:10]).
    • Pryor is pragmatic: “Let’s get out there and support candidates and get good Democrats to run...Let Mainers decide who they want in the Senate.” ([46:05])

• Voter Registration Decline: An Existential Problem

  • Halperin and Pryor dissect a New York Times report documenting Democratic registration losses in every state with registration by party, including among young and non-white voters ([47:48]).

    NYT Reporter (clip): “For the Democratic Party, it’s not looking good. We looked at 30 states...and in those 30 states in the last four years, the Democratic Party lost ground to Republicans in every single one.” ([48:01])

  • Pryor calls for old-fashioned organizing:

    “This is basic blocking and tackling that the party needs to be doing all around the country...We need a committed program to getting people registered.” ([48:22]) “We need to be winning elections. If whatever we’re doing isn’t, we need to stop doing it.” ([49:33])

• Money, J.D. Vance, and the Billionaire Surge

  • Discussion of the billions potentially available for Republican nominee J.D. Vance (helped by Silicon Valley, Elon Musk, and the RNC Finance Chair role). Pryor is deeply concerned about “billionaires buying elections” but sees few remedies under current Supreme Court precedents ([53:55]):

    “...someone puts $30 million or $300 million...nobody can touch them. It’s very troubling.” ([54:25])

• Redistricting: Why It Matters

  • Pryor: “People should absolutely care because it really goes to the core of the Constitution...I hope the Supreme Court will finally put a stop to this [gerrymandering].” ([57:44])

Notable Quotes

• On Democrats’ Organizational Challenges:

  “This is part of a years-long problem for the Democratic Party and it’s something we certainly need to [solve].” – Mark Pryor ([50:22])

• On the Billionaire Surge:

  “...our democracy is not working for people. The candidate in Maine is going to try to tap into that anxiety and anger.” ([56:47])

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III. Michael Caputo: Surviving Cancer and Public Targeting

Begins at [62:00]

Main Theme

Michael Caputo, longtime Trump advisor and public affairs chief at HHS during Covid, shares his riveting story: being caught in the crosshairs of the Mueller investigation and the media—and, simultaneously, of a dire cancer diagnosis.

Key Discussion Points

• Career Snapshot

  • Caputo’s journey from the Army, to working with Jack Kemp, Reagan, Bush, to Russia/U.S. democracy projects, and private sector PR. Later worked closely with Trump, joined the 2016 campaign, and then HHS during Covid ([62:12]).
  • Spent $500,000 in legal fees due to the Russia probe, never charged but left personally and financially devastated.

    “Oh, no [I was never charged], but it never stopped...If you’re a friend of Donald Trump, you’re vulnerable.” ([65:23])

• Cancer Diagnosis Amid Crisis

  • While managing pandemic crisis communications, doctor Robert Redfield (CDC) noticed a lump in Caputo’s neck ([65:46]).
  • Immediate surgery at NIH revealed head and neck cancer, which they feared had reached his brain but, through a combination of luck and medical skill, had been caught in time.

    “They called me later that night and told me I had head and neck cancer and that it had likely gone to my brain...the entire world crashed around me.” ([65:46])

  • Entered brutal treatment: “It’s one of the easiest to cure, but one of the most difficult to treat...” ([67:26])

• Lowest Point: A Will to Die

  • Overwhelmed by the pressures and negative media, Caputo found himself ready to give up.

    “Right before Thanksgiving 2020, I decided to die. I stopped eating and drinking. Nobody knew because I was quarantined.” ([68:45])

  • His wife intervened, taking him to a hospital, where staff recognized he was trying to let himself go.

    “I hadn’t had water or food for days...the nurse said, ‘You’re trying to die, but you can’t die when they’re feeding you through your arm.’” ([69:52])

• The Turning Point and Recovery

  • After the hospital stay, he resolved to fight. By February 2021, there was “no evidence of disease.”

    “I’m disease free. And I have been since February of 21. It shocked me.” ([71:56])

• Post-Cancer Advocacy and Policy Work

  • Caputo becomes involved with the Maha cancer initiative (with RFK Jr., Dr. Oz, et al), focused on using technology (especially AI) and environmental research to tackle rising childhood cancer ([72:41]).

    “Chemotherapy...hasn’t been really changed since 1890. And they’re treating children with ancient medicines...” ([79:09])

  • Describes moving to Ave Maria, Florida, for a faith-centered life and entering a theology master’s program.

Notable Quotes

• On Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.:

  “Bobby Kennedy is unique...he’s physically unable to lie...That’s a wonderful thing for America, but it’s terrible for Bobby Kennedy [as a politician].” ([74:09])

• On losing hope but finding faith:

  “I tell my friends I prayed for boys, I got none. I have all daughters, and girls take care of their dads...” ([83:14]) “I gave up. I really did. But...there is only one way to be healed and it’s your faith. It really is, and your family can get you there.” ([83:14])

• Mark Halperin praises Caputo:

  “Very few people have to fight for their lives and deal with cancer while also being investigated by a special counsel and dealing with attempts to cancel. So, Michael, it’s a great story and a brave story, and it’s testament not to the support of your family, but also to your extraordinary struggle and determination.” ([84:54])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Episode Overview: [00:31]
• Halperin’s Monologue on Newsom: [01:10] – [32:30]
• Mark Pryor Interview (Democratic Party, Maine Senate Race, Voter Crisis): [34:06] – [61:59]
• Michael Caputo’s Story: [62:00] – [86:01]

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Conclusion

This episode of Next Up with Mark Halperin is a study in contrasts—rapid-fire, meme-ready political warfare and the slow, stubborn fight against cancer; the decline of a once-dominant Democratic brand and the rise of new digital tactics; the transactional reality of big-money politics and the enduring strength of family and faith.

For listeners seeking political insight and human drama, each interview offers a reminder: American politics—and American perseverance—remains as complex and unpredictable as ever.

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Transcript

[Mark Halperin]

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Welcome to Next Up Nexters. I'm Mark Halperin. Thank you for joining. I'm the editor in chief of the live interactive video platform 2way and your guide, as always, to everything that's next up in politics, media and beyond. Two great guests today. Really super interested to talk to Michael Caputo, a longtime advisor to President Trump who worked on health policy and has advised people like RFK Jr. And Dr. Oz tells us his story. Michael will share what it's like to go both through cancer and cancellation at the same time. It's an incredible story and spoiler alert, Michael's come through it in great shape, but it is a harrowing story and he'll share that with us. And then we're going to talk about the Democratic Party's challenges and opportunities with former Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who is got some pretty good perspective on how the Democrats can fight back, having lived through the glory days when his dad was a senator from Arkansas and now his state and so many other red states are so solidly red. So they'll be here in a moment. But next up, first up, my reported monologue. I'm super excited about this one and I'm going to do my best to not piss you off, but to maybe try to help educate you. And we're going to do it all through the prism of what I call the Gavin Newsom puzzle. Gavin Newsom is on a ride. And all week I've been talking here and on two way about how Gavin Newsom is now the front runner for the Democratic nomination. And people's reaction to that has been, I shouldn't say I'm surprised or shocked, but disappointing to me because so many of you consume political media to get angry or to argue with me when I'm trying to tell you some facts. I think I've got a pretty good perspective on what, what is important about why Gavin Newsom is doing well. And so I'm going to ask you, come with me here. Listen, use this as an opportunity to maybe, maybe learn if you think I'm right. I don't mind argument. But why should we care that Gavin Newsom is now, in my view, in the view of Patty Solis Doyle, who was here with us on the last episode, and so many other folks I know, think Gavin Newsom is now alone in Tier 1, that he is having easily the best summer of any Democrat who might run for president. 28. So there's three ways to look at this that I think are important. And if you care about America, not just the inside game of politics, but policy and where we are as a country. So first of all, it matters for 2028. Gavin Newsom, Governor of California, who's having this incredible moment, he's the front runner now. And so other people who want to join him in the first tier, other people who'd like to be strong candidates, they need to see what he's doing and see if they can check it. Second, it speaks to the question, if you're a Democrat or a Republican and you're interested in the topic of will Donald Trump have serious opposition to what he's trying to do as a matter of policy and Politics Now In 2025, in the midterms, and then policy between now and the next presidential we can learn from what Gavin Newsom is doing about how Democrats and others who want to oppose the president can effectively do that. Doesn't mean everything Gavin Newsom is doing is working. In fact, I'm skeptical about what he's doing on redistricting and whether it will work. But again, the prism of Gavin Newsom can tell us some stuff about what works in opposing Donald Trump. And then finally, the issue of leadership in the age of technology, at a time when how you effectively lead in business, in your community, in politics and government and presidential campaigns, how do you use technology to empower yourself to lead? What are the elements of that? So as you listen to what I'm saying here today, don't hate. Don't be a bad hater. Take it as a learning opportunity. Use it as an opportunity to understand you could be the biggest Gavin Newsom critic in America. And I'm telling you, you're overstating the extent to which he's a bad guy or a bad governor. I'm not saying he's the best governor of all time. You'll hear me talk about that. But use this as an opportunity not to tweet at me or email me and say, how can you say Gavin Newsom's so great? Or how can you say he's the frontrunner? Take a breath and listen. And if you're Interested in America. Use this as an opportunity to understand. I say to people in blue America all the time, if you don't agree with Donald Trump and you really dislike him, understand that half the country thinks he should be president. They voted for him and they much prefer him to what blues have on offer. And you should listen. And I'll say to people in red America, try to figure out why Gavin Newsom's doing well. Don't deny he's doing well, because he is. Try to work with me here to understand why is he doing well. I study it. I'm interested in it as a matter of politics, but it tells you something about America. It tells you something about leadership. So earlier this year, when President Trump was riding high in his first few weeks in the administration and in governance, Steve Elmendorf, who's one of the smartest Democratic strategists I know, and believe me, no fan of Donald Trump, posited a theory that I think was spot on about Donald Trump, and I think it tells us a lot about why Gavin Newsom is doing well. Now, Steve talked about the three A's. Action, attention, authenticity, action. Do a lot of stuff, right? Do stuff. Don't just sit around having the paralysis of analysis. Don't fail to act when your constituents and your and your stakeholders are demanding action. Do stuff. Donald Trump has led that from the transition through this moment. Does a lot of stuff. Second is get attention. We know we live in an attention, competitive attention situation. People can read about politics, they can watch Netflix, they can, they can play video games, they can do all sorts of things. And so how do you get attention? And that, of course, relates to action. But action's not enough. You need the talent to use social media, television, other devices, other platforms to get attention. And then the third A is authenticity. People respond well to authenticity. And one of the things about Gavin Newsom that's happening right now, even though his critics say this is phony, including his critics in the Trump White House, this is authentic Gavin Newsom, trust me. So what is he doing? Why has he been on such a powerful run? He had a trip to South Carolina very well. But he has been doing stuff of late on social media, particularly on X that has everybody talking. He's gotten tons of coverage in the traditional media about it. Democrats, strategists and other politicians who, who don't want to run for president are impressed by what he's doing. And the strategy has involved going up against the White House particularly. There's some other targets which we'll talk about and he's taken to using Donald Trump's style on social media, all caps, mocking language, humor. Ending his post often by saying, thank you for your attention to this matter. Using AI to create images like of him on Mount Rushmore. All these things are meant to get attention and to demonstrate a fighting spirit because so many Democrats have been frustrated for a decade at Donald Trump's social media posts and, and Gavin Newsom is basically saying, I'm mocking Donald Trump, I'm calling him out and I'm getting the message across. And believe me, the White House has noted. Here's Gavin Newsom in a local TV interview a couple days ago explaining this new social media strategy. S1, please.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, yes, I've changed. The facts have changed. We need to change and we need to stand up to this authoritarian. We need to stand up at this moment and it is foundational. Again, it is not about Republican versus Democrat. This guy is an invasive species. He is completely different. I respect the Republican Party. I married in a Republican family. I have deep love and respect for people I disagree with. He is something whole, together different and he is unmoored. There is no constraints. So yes, we're going to punch back and yes, we're going to punch back with a full weight of the fourth largest economy in the world, the size of 21 state population combined, and with the consent of the people, then Dow, the power to government. We will do the right thing and we will push back and we'll succeed this November.

[Mark Halperin]

So there's intensity, there's using the power of the state, including going to court on some occasions. But there's also this humor, right? There are these posts that are getting so much attention. So as I said, the White House has noticed. Here's a tweet from Steven Chung, who's a top communications advisor to President Trump in the White House. Stephen's tweet is one of many reactions that there's been from Trump folks to Gavin Newsom's tweet. And again, it's all caps, it's making little jokes about Donald Trump, nicknames, et cetera. Steven Chung tweets after an assassinated attempt on POTUS just over a year ago, Gavin Newsom, in an absolutely unhinged post, appears to be calling for something even worse. What a vile piece of shit. Gfy. So, you know, I don't always assume when people react that they've, they're, they're feeling the, they're feeling the heat, but there's a lot of reaction and that's what Democrats want to See, part of why Democrats are so enthusiastic about what Gavin Newsom is doing is because he is taking it to the president and he's being aggressive. He's not just sitting back. And that fight is what Democrats want. They don't feel Joe Biden did it enough or Kamala Harris did it enough. So Wednesday night, J.D. vance on Fox. Laura Ingram got asked about Gavin Newsom. Here's how he responded. As to sounding like crazy people, that really is all it is. I mean, this idea that Gavin Newsom is somehow going to mimic Donald Trump's style, I think that ignores the fundamental genius of President Trump's political success, which is that he's authentic. He just is who he is. You've got to be yourself. You've actually got to talk to people honestly about the issues. I don't think it's that complicated. Don't be a crazy person. Be authentic. If the Democrats did that, they'd do a hell of a lot better. But now, this is a common refrain from the folks at the White House and others supporters of the president. This isn't real. This is just gimmicky. I'm telling you, it's not true. Here's how Gavin Newsom and his team responded to the Vice President. A2 on Twitter to that interview. He said he almost got it, just like a little jibe. And anyone who's talked to Gavin Newsom, as I have over the years, knows that this mentality, this fight, this effort to stand up, to not let the president and his administration get away with what Democrats want to stop, that's authentic. And part of why some Democrats are reacting favorably to it is they know it's authentic, despite what the Trump folks are saying. Now, as I mentioned, there are other targets. People on Fox News have been saying about Gavin Newsom's social media, new social media Persona, well, this is fake. This is not dignified. And this won't work because it's not dignified. If you want to be president, you got to be dignified. Of course. What Gavin Newsom. A lot of Democrats say, talk about dignity, talk about social media. What has Donald Trump been doing for 10 years? Here's Newsom with a bunch of liberal influencers talking about his indignity at being accused of being undignified. This is S3. Please, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, even poor Kid Rock, these guys, they've become a little precious, haven't they? These folks at Fox, they're like, oh, this is so unbecoming of a governor.

[Mark Halperin]

Oh, oh.

[Gavin Newsom]

And meanwhile, they sit there reading his TWEETS every single day. Are they that tonally out of touch?

[Michael Caputo]

I mean, it's jaw dropping.

[Gavin Newsom]

How precious a concern New York Post has gotten. All of a sudden the Wall Street.

[Mark Halperin]

Journal ed board is like, oh, no.

We can't have this.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, what I, I hope we're exposing it all. I hope we're exposing on, I hope we're entertaining some people.

[Mark Halperin]

So talked about entertaining. That's how you get attention in the attention economy. And you heard laughter there. If you're watching on YouTube, you saw four liberal influencers. They're enjoying it. On the right. They have the phrase own the libs. What Gavin Newsom is doing in effect is owning the right. And maybe the people on the right genuinely don't feel owned. Maybe the White House and J.D. vance feel like this is an ineffective joke. But Gavin Newsom is inspiring a lot of people on the left saying we don't have to sit back and take some of the things that the right, Donald Trump specifically have done that have been negative. Now here's another battle he's engaged in and this 247 battle, not letting any slight go by. You won't see that from the governor of Illinois or the governor of Pennsylvania or the governor of Michigan or the governor of Kentucky. They'll engage occasionally and I don't know how long the Team Newsom will keep this up, but if you want attention, you got to be in the fight every day. So Bed Bath and Beyond, the big retail company who's gone through a bankruptcy, put out a statement saying they can't do business in California anymore because of all the regulation, all the, all the challenges that they say exists in California. So Gavin Newsom saw that press release and rather than doing what a governor normally would do, probably privately call the CEO and say, you know, we gotta, we gotta work this out. I want your, I want the jobs in our state. Gavin Newsom went on Twitter A3. And again, it's Gavin Newsom and his team. And they responded to the CEO saying, the chairman saying rather announced not going to open up any new retail stores in California because of high taxes, high fees and forced unsustainable wages. Gavin Newsom responded, the company that already went bankrupt and closed every store across the country two years ago. Okay, sarcasm. And taking on a big employer. Here is how that same chairman responded to Gavin Newsom's jibe on fox. This is S4, please.

Well, I think the thing that was really surprising to me is that I tried to articulate in a non aggressive way exactly why our company wasn't going to reinvest capital in California.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what I found out this afternoon.

[Mark Halperin]

Is that Governor Newsom has enough time to respond to a tweet, as opposed to a private DM or having somebody reach out to remind everybody in America that in 2023, before we bought the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Intellectual property, that the company went out of business.

[Mark Halperin]

So here's the CEO saying, yeah, why isn't he doing the standard thing? Right? And here's what I think Republicans are missing as they critique Newsom's performance. He's not doing the standard thing. That is what the mood of the electorate. They don't want business as usual. And liberals who don't like Donald Trump, they want somebody trying something new. Because Donald Trump continues to win. He's won two out of three presidential races. Yes, he's lost Congress at times, and he's not won every midterm election, but he's winning right now the fight against universities, the fight against law firms, the fight against liberal corporate America, the fight against the Kennedy center, the fight against the federal bureaucracy. What people want is not business as usual. So when Donald Trump, the last 10 years, has done stuff that's not conventional and taken on things like companies, his supporters have said, good, do something different. That's exactly what Gavin Newsom's doing on his Twitter feed. It's exactly what he's doing vis a vis Bed, Bath and Beyond. And it's striking a chord with some liberals. Now, when I say Gavin Newsom's alone in Tier 1, I hear a lot of people on the right say, that's ridiculous. That's not right. He's such a horrible governor, a horrible person, et cetera. You may recall, if you're a longtime nexter, that episode two of this program featured in my interview with Gavin Newsom. And in that conversation, I presented to him what I called the four myths, the four things about Gavin Newsom that his detractors, mostly on the right, but some in the center and left, think about Gavin Newsom that I think are wrong. Now, this will make many of you angry, but I'm telling you, I've known Gavin Newsom. I've covered him, I've studied his career. And these are myths, okay? So stay with me because this guy could be the Democratic nominee for president. And if you're on the right, you want to. You want to know what's he like? What's the truth? Because the voters are going to seek out the truth, not the spin. And if you're on the left, you also should know the Truth about the guy who you're thinking about making your candidate. Myth number one, Gavin Newsom is super liberal. He's liberal on everything. Now he'll tell you on, on abortion rights, on gay rights, he's as liberal as they come. But it's a myth to say that Gavin Newsom is liberal on everything. Take for example his interview with Charlie Kirk where he made some comments about trans athletes in sports that rubbed people on the left and then the wrong way and some people on the right thought were phony on some cultural issues, on crime, he's not an ultra liberal. And on economics, he will tell you his record is nuanced. I'm not saying he's the most conservative, but here's Gavin Newsom talking about the notion that he's extremely liberal on everything. This is S5, please.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm a pragmatist. I'm a small business owner. I've created 22 small businesses taking pen to paper, close to 1,000 people that I've had the privilege of employing in the state. I've had an entrepreneurial mindset. I embrace innovation and free enterprise. And so this notion that I'm a wild haired liberal is just nonsense. That said, said, on progressive social issues, I stand tall and firm in terms of my advocacy.

[Mark Halperin]

Again, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Can you look at Gavin Newsom's record as governor of California and find lots of liberal positions, liberal bills he signed into law, liberal statements he's made? Yes, you can. But that doesn't make him the most liberal person in the Democratic Party. It's a liberal party and it's moved farther left. He's run businesses, he started businesses and he signed the front of paychecks. That doesn't make him, you know, Donald Trump, it doesn't make him Tom Cotton, but it does mean that he's not a doctrinaire liberal on economics and some social issues. And I'm telling you, don't, don't flood me with messages saying he's so liberal he's crazy liberal. The state's so liberal. That's the reason Bed, Bath and Beyond close. He's liberal, but compared to other Democrats who might run for president on plenty of issues, he's more moderate. All right. Second myth that I talked to Gavin Newsom about on the all these are still germane is that he's a pretty boy, know nothing, that he's not a serious person, that he doesn't know about policy. Go read his book about the digital economy, the digital society, which Came out well ahead of the curve. Do I think he's handsome? I do. Not my type, but I do. Do I think that. That he is the smartest person I've ever met? No. But I met a lot of smart people. But it is a myth to say that. That he's a pretty boy who's never accomplished anything, who's not serious about policy. Here's Gavin Newsom on Myth 2.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's been a point of pride what we've done in California as it relates to advancing public policy through a lens of good public policy mindset, meaning our commitment to the best politics is a better idea and our commitment to be pragmatic, not ideological, in terms of pursuit of public policy. But it's absolutely untrue that I wake up with sort of a Geiger or some sort of political lens to every decision I make. It's just total bs.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. Again, part of this myth he referenced there is that he's just a calculating politician, that he's just a pretty boy idiot who's calculating. He's all about ambition. Okay, now again, please don't send me emails and texts and go on Twitter and say Mark Halpern says Gavin Newsom is the most substantive serious person and he's a genius and blah, blah, blah. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a myth to say that he's a. He's a pretty boy dunderhead who's all ambition, doesn't care about public policy. Go have a public policy conversation with him about homelessness or crime. He can do it. Okay, next myth. California has completely failed. Now, there's lots of signs of that. There's homelessness, there's a drug there, drug problems, there's crime. It's also a state where on his watch, two term governor, they've had some success that you can say, what's all having to do with the private sector? Well, governors get some of the credit when things go well. Has he, has he done, has he done things in terms of public policy that business would say have hurt business? Yes, yes, yes. Don't overreact to this myth. What I'm saying is if he runs for president to win the Democratic nomination, and then separate question. Can he win a general election? There are successful things that have happened in California on his watch. Not 100%. He's not the most successful governor of all time. A lot of people in California, including Democrats, don't think he's been that successful. But don't fall into the trap of saying that California is 100% failed. Fifth largest economy in the world. It's grown on his watch. He had something to do with it. S8 well, I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, if I'm representing a failed state, it's the fourth largest economy in the world. We dominate in every critical category. We continue to grow, we continue to outperform.

[Michael Caputo]

We.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're a wealth making machine. We're a state. By the way, I'm so sick and tired of the mythology that we're a high tax state. It's just a lie. It's made up 16 states tax their low wage earners more than the state of California.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay, fourth largest economy, he says. I think it toggles back and forth, but he's probably right. It's fourth. Now, again, if he runs for president in the context of the democratic process for the party, and then if he's the nominee in the general, there'll be a robust debate about how California did. But it doesn't serve the debate. And it's inaccurate to say on his watch, California is just a failure on everything. There are lots of failures and believe me, you'll hear about them if he runs. You hear about them now. But it is wrong to say that on his watch the state has been destroyed because there's still a lot going on in California. Silicon Valley, Hollywood, fourth largest economy in the world. It's a lot going on there. He's had something to do with it. The last myth is the one that I think is the is the most misunderstood. I'm the only one who thinks Gavin Newsom might not run for president. Everybody else says of course he's running. And to be clear, he's talking to people now about a campaign. He's hiring people or asking people if they'd be available. He's building a very strong team if he decides to run. And I think he may enter the race and then decide to get out. But there are lots of reasons why I'm skeptical that he'll run. Having to do with my reporting, private reporting with people close to him who've talked about his ambivalence, his family's ambivalence. But listen to what he said to me on this myth that he is 100% running about his daughter. This is S7, please.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, my gosh. I had my oldest daughter last night. She's 15, almost in tears because she can't take it anymore because she's got someone now with her because of the world we're living. And Ted was talking about that in your show a couple days ago, things have radically changed. She said, dad, I can't take it anymore. When are you done with this? Give us our life back.

[Mark Halperin]

No.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's very intense and emotional.

[Mark Halperin]

People say if he decides to run, he's not going to give a crap about what his daughter thinks. I'm telling you, he's a caring dad. Any family runs for president, you think her, you think her life has been disrupted by being with a small security detail that the daughter of the governor of California gets if he runs for president. Her access to privacy, her access to anonymity, her access to go to the mall. It's over. It's over for as long as he's present and it's deeply changed for the rest of her life. So that one story, really resonant for me. I know you all, many of you all listening. Of course he's running. Why is he doing all the things he's doing now? He's keeping his options open. I may be wrong, my gap may be wrong, my sources may be wrong. Maybe he'll run. But I'm telling you, there's reasons to believe he said it right there, that he may not run. And there are plenty of people who, who do all sorts of things to prepare to run for president. They hire teams, they start organizations, they travel to the early voting states and then they don't run. So I'll say myth number four, don't be 100% certain he's going to run. Okay? Now this stuff he's doing currently fighting Trump on the fires, aftermath, fighting Trump on redistricting in particular, doing all this stuff on social media. Elites love it, the press loves it. He's gotten stories in every publication in America about this strategy. I'm talking about it now. You get to see quotes from people, prominent strategists saying this is great. Academics, liberal academics saying this is why this is so great. I don't know that we know the voters think it's so great. Here's a poll that Politico did in the midst of all of this, it's happening every day, so maybe opinion will change. But here's a poll from Politico. They asked Democrats and Democratic leaning independents in California, who do you like for your nominee in 2028? Now, Newsom is first, Newsom is first, 25%. This is amongst California voters, Kamala Harris, six points behind him. And then they asked influencers and the influencers said, yeah, 14% California voters. Now you say he's first. He's only up by comma, over Kamala Harris by six points. And we all know what Kamala Harris, what happened to her public image. And only a quarter of them said him. And then you see Buttigieg and AOC and others blow there. I don't think this poll is great for him. I think this poll confirms my suspicion that maybe the voters aren't as into this social media stuff and this Trump mocking stuff as the elites are. Getting the support from elites is important. But this poll to me says this is not some revolutionary thing, but you could be the front runner at this stage without having voters before you because now it's about the donors and the strategists, et cetera. So I'm not sure he's going to run and I'm not sure that by every measure he'll stay the front runner. And of course, in the end, the voters are what matter. There's other things I want you to think about when you think about Gavin Newsom that aren't being talked about that would downgrade his possibilities. I'll say again, I've been talking about it all week. He's alone in the first tier. But let me tell you some things that aren't being talked about, that if you want to think about Gavin Newsom's prospects to be the Democratic nominee to win a general election, you should think about first of all, it's very hard to run for president from California. Now in the digital age, you can communicate with the whole country digitally and he's as good at that as anybody on social media. He does. He hosts these live video calls, like video town halls. But if he wants to start campaigning in New Hampshire and South Carolina has a long haul, time difference, distance, it's hard. So that's one thing you got to consider. I've watched other Californians run for president. It ain't easy. Now, he'll be out of office for a part of it, but unless he's going to move his family, that's a challenge. Second, I don't know if I call this a dirty little secret, a secret or just dirty. But other politicians in the party don't like him much. He has not courted people even in his own state, but around the country nearly as much. People like Westmore, governor of Maryland, Governor Shapiro, Pennsylvania, they're more popular with the other governors. And that matters. It matters for fundraising. It matters because the other governors may settle on one candidate who they they want to be the consensus choice the way the Republicans settled on George W. Bush 2000. So watch to see If Gavin Newsom, as he has success, watch to see if other folks in the party rallied to him, other politicians, or they decide they need to stop him because they don't like him. That's another factor. Another factor dealing with scrutiny. Okay, Patty Solis Doyle and I talked about this last episode. Everybody who runs for president has to get braced for a higher level of scrutiny. Even the governor of California, one of the biggest and most visible jobs in American politics. He's going to get scrutiny. I've already seen it on social media today, and some of the stories are no secret. But there'll be a surprise to most Democratic voters in places like South Carolina about his conduct when he was running for office. When he was in office. I saw a tweet today reminding a news story, reminding people about his personal life when he was the mayor of San Francisco. That's the stuff we know about that's going to be recycled. And I'm not going to talk about the other stuff that may come up today. And I'm sure there's stuff I don't even know about. I had no idea about some things about George Bush and Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, when they ran, even though they'd been in public office. So watch that, and watch to see how he handles that and watch to see if he's confronted with some of that stuff early on, whether he pulls back from running. Everybody needs to calm down, okay? This guy may run. Everybody but me thinks he'll definitely run. This guy will be scrutinized. This guy has a record that's mixed. Calm down, calm down about Gavin Newsom. Don't say he's too failed. He's too liberal, he's too pretty, he's too ambitious to win. He might, he might not. But don't prejudge it. Gavin Newsom is not as great as his supporters say he is. And he's not as bad as a lot of folks think he is. He's a guy who's on a great role with this new social media strategy. He's a guy who's letting his inner authentic self show more in public. And he's a guy who's letting it rip in an authentic way against Donald Trump. And right now, the reason he's alone in the first tier is there's one standard in the Democratic Party that at least the elites are attracted to. Are you ready to fight every day, in every way, in the courts, on social media, with the press, with the voters? Are you willing to fight every day to try to contain Donald Trump and Gavin Newsom is doing it better and more effectively. The three A's. He's getting attention, he's being active and he's showing his authentic self. Trust me, this is his authentic self. Gavin Newsom showed courage coming out well before Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Hillary and Bill Clinton did on gay marriage. Go study that. Study that example. If you think he's a soft, feckless pretty boy, go study his career. This is a guy who understands the game of politics, understands media, understands digital. I'm not predicting he'll win. And you know, I'm not predicting he'll run, but there's a reason why I have him in the top tier by himself right now. All right, tell me what you think about today's report. You can send me an email at. Next up halperinmail.com find the show anytime on X Instagram and TikTok, our handle. Next up, Halpern. And don't forget, always watch the show. If you'd like to see everything on YouTube, we'[e-mail] NextUp. Halperin, grateful to you for being part of it. Love to hear from you always. Next up here, former Arkansas senator, Democrat Mark Pryor joins me. All right, think about this. What if you could delay your next two mortgage payments? That's right. Imagine putting those two payments right back in your pocket, finally getting a little breathing room. It's possible when you call the folks at American Financing today. If you're feeling stretched by those everyday expenses, the cost of groceries, of gas, all the bills piling up around the house, you're not alone. Most Americans now putting these expenses on credit cards. And that means there doesn't seem to be any way out. American Financing, though, can show you how you use your home's equity to pay off that debt. So you need to call American Financing today before you get to that point where you can't make those payments. Their salary based mortgage consultants are helping homeowners just like you to restructure their loans, consolidate their debt and does it all without any upfront fees. Their customers get this. They're saving an average of $800 per month. That's the equivalent of a $10,000 a year raise. It's fast, it's simple and it could save your budget this summer and into the fall. So call now before it is too late. Dial 866-886-2026 again, that's 866-886-2026. Or you can go on the web and visit them@American financing.net next. All right, next up, Mark Pryor, former senator from Arkansas, served from 2003 to 2015. He's a Democrat. Before he was a senator, he was Attorney General of Arkansas and he currently works with a law firm, splitting his time between Washington and New York. Brownstein, Hyatt, Faber, Shrek should have Pryor in there before he was any of those things. He crossed my path. We both grew up in the Washington D.C. area to dads who were very accomplished. And Senator Pryor's dad was a politician from Arkansas with a lot of big jobs. But before I covered Bill Clinton, before I covered Barack Obama, before I covered all the great speechifiers, I went to a high school assembly and there was a guy there who was running student, student senior in the student government. And he, as Bill Clinton said, talked to owls down from the trees. If it was not the best speech any high school student has ever given to his classmates and other members of the school, I don't know what was. And it left quite an impression on me. So it was no surprise when I learned that that gentleman was go on to be United States Senator. Joining me now, the gentleman from Arkansas, Senator Pryor. Senator, welcome in.

Well, thank you. It's nice. We did. We went to Walt Whitman High School. I graduated class of 81. I think you were 83.

83. So as a sophomore in high school, I saw you give a great speech. I don't know. How'd you win that job? How'd you become student council president?

That's a good question because I actually didn't move to D.C. until midway through my 10th grade year. I did not know a soul in the school. And a year later, I'm right running for student body president, I win somehow. But no, that's nice you remember that. But that was a great school. We had a great experience there. And I know you played a lot of basketball and all that, and I played a little bit of football, but I really did focus on student government. It was good experience.

Yeah. It's funny, when I first met Bill Clinton and first started spending time in Arkansas, spent a lot of time in Little Rock when I was covering the Clinton campaign in. In 1991, 1992, I didn't really was not fully familiar with Arkansas political culture, but I became so. And your dad and Dale Bumpers were the two senators from Arkansas. And both your dad and Senator Bumpers were incredible politicians. And Bill Clinton, who is I think by consensus the greatest of all time, at least in the modern era, he had so much respect for both Your dad and Senator Bumpers. And we just say, like Mark, you have to understand, these guys are. They're really knowledgeable about policy. They're great politicians. There are Democrats who've gotten elected and reelected in a competitive state. And it just. It just struck me so much that Bill Clinton, of all people, had so much respect for both Senator Bumpers and for your dad.

Well, we were spoiled in Arkansas because for a small state like ours, we had really talented people that were in office. And again, you know, Bill Clinton, Dale Bumpers, my father, David Pryor, and then there were others, too. There are a lot of really good people. I was in the legislature for some of that time, and when you were in Little Rock, I was in the legislature, and it was fantastic. It was such a great learning experience for me to really learn how to get things done. And one thing I loved about those years, when I was in the state legislature and even attorney general in the state, it wasn't partisan at all. We were heavily Democratic, but we had our fights within everything, and the party label never really came up. We really talked about substance and policy, and we did a lot of great things for the state of Arkansas. And of course, my dad and Bill Clinton and Dale Bumpers were all part of that. So, anyway, what a great legacy. And I wish our politics could get back to that. I wish we could decrease the volume and really lower the priority for the party and really focus more on policy and what's best and what's right.

I don't want to insult Tom Cotton or Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the other folks there now, but really to have had two centers of the stature of your dad, David Pryor and Dale Bumpers and Bill Clinton, and then have the first Arkansan president, it was just. It was kind of an incredible thing that I think easy to take for granted at the time, but they were not just incredibly effective public servants, but as you said, they worked across the aisle. Today, Arkansas, like the rest of the south, is dominated by Republicans. Very few. I don't know when they'll next be a statewide elected in Arkansas who's a Democrat, but I don't think it's happening anytime soon.

We are seeing some really quality candidates emerge on the Democratic side. They haven't been winning yet, but even on the state legislative races and all that, the Democrats are getting much, much closer to winning a lot of these races. So it's going to be interesting. We'll see what happens over the next two or three years. But I'll tell you this one Last thing on Bill Clinton and my dad and Dale Bumpers is that David Pryor and Dale Bumpers were such good politicians that Bill Clinton would say he couldn't beat either of them for this.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, you got that, that much talent where you've got Bill Clinton, who's sitting there as governor and can't win a Senate race against those two, either one of those two, maybe.

I mean, he didn't.

He never ran. We would have seen what had happened. But anyway, really, really great memories. Thank you for mentioning that because Arkansas does have a great legacy on that.

Yeah. I mean, again, it's easy to say good old days and to, you know, to glory, to glorify and romanticize, but I'm telling you, it's like saying, you know, Bill Russell wouldn't be a great NBA player today. No, actually, he would. And those three, they were just Titans. They could, they could have been with the Founding Fathers. I say that truly, I'm not being hyperbolic. Those three guys could have been with the Founding Fathers. They could, they could play politics today. They were just so shrewd. But also, again, they were all in politics for the right reason. And if you don't, if you're listening to this, watching this, and you're not familiar with David Pryor and Senator Bumpers, and obviously everybody knows President Clinton, go read up on them. They're just extraordinary. They were extraordinary. And as you said, Bill Clinton said I couldn't beat those guys in Arkansas.

Yeah. And last thing, really is my father died about a year ago. And when Harry Reid gave his farewell address, you know, as a senator, he said he'd often been asked about who the best legislator was that he served with. And, you know, he served with a lot of giants in the Senate, but he said David Pryor of Arkansas was the best legislator he ever served with. And that. What a great compliment. And I mentioned that at his eulogy, it is funeral, because really, my dad was extraordinary. And he, he was a. In addition to everything else, he's just a great person, you know. Really. I know I'm biased because he's my father.

No, I obviously didn't know him all that well compared to you, of course, but I spent time with him, time with Senator Bumpers and, And just, they just radiated dignity and, and humor and seriousness of purpose. And I'm not saying there's no senators like that today. But, but they're titans. The. Both those guys, your dad, Cinder Bumpers. Thank you for saying that. And, and, and in my experience, you'll tell me if I'm wrong. In my experience, sometimes when a state has two powerful senators, they don't get along. Your dad seemed to get along with Senator Bumpers pretty well.

For sure. Yeah, for sure. And because you've been so nice about my dad, I'll make sure my mother listens to the podcast later today.

All right, Good deal. And the kids do. I want to talk about the party, and I want to start with the positive, and then we'll get to some of the challenges. Because again, you in your own right, great politician, and you beat a Republican to win your seat, and then you lost a Republican to go back to the private sector. And you're familiar with the challenges the party has, not just in the south, but nationally. So there's a guy in Maine who's running for the Democratic nomination to go against Susan Collins. His name's Graham Platner. Nobody had heard of him. Two days ago, he put out a two minute announcement video, and it's got everybody in the party talking. It's all over social media. Just this one video has really grabbed people's attention. So I want to show you a little bit of this two minute video that this, this guy, Graham Plattner, has put out. And then let's talk about why you think it's striking such a chord.

[Michael Caputo]

Great. My name is Graham Platner, and I'm running for U.S. senate in Maine to defeat Susan Collins. A decade of military service, going overseas farming oysters to feed my community, diving to lend a hand to other fishermen trying to start a family. But everywhere I've gone, it seems like the fabric of what holds us together is being ripped apart by billionaires and corrupt politicians profiting off of destroying our environment, driving our families into poverty, and crushing the middle class.

[Mark Halperin]

All right, so for those of you listening on the podcast version, that guy's not wearing a suit. He's wearing stained hoodies and T shirts. He's chopping wood. He's got. He's got facial hair. Senator, why. Why is this guy striking such a chord just with that one video?

Well, you know, that's a very powerful video. He's touching on so many things, so many issues that people care about today. And what he says resonates with people. People have that feeling, and it's not always articulated, but they have that feeling that really our democracy has lost something here. And it is controlled by billionaires and it is controlled by others like. Like that. That means that ordinary people really don't have much of a voice anymore. And people feel like that our politicians, our elected officials are not listening to us. So I do think he's tapping into something that is really strong there. And then the question is, is will he be able to convince Mainers that, that he's right about Susan Collins, that, that she's not representing Maine very well, that, you know, she's part of the problem and all those kind of things. I'll say this about Susan. I like her personally. She and I work together very, very closely. We were in the Senate and she's very popular back home or has been. I don't know what the Trump factor is there. I know that Kamala Harris carried the state last time, what, 52, 40 something, you know, so we'll have to see how successful he is in that. But she's been able to hang on to that seat and in some bad election cycles, she's been able to always come back. So we'll see. I haven't seen any polls, but that, that certainly does have Democrats energized right now.

Yeah. You think people, people in your party will start sending that guy money?

I would think so. You know, I did notice that she's raising money out on the West Coast. Yeah. And that's a little bit of a headline because you know, Republicans don't always do that or at least the perception is.

Let's talk about that.

Truth is they do. But, but you know, she's made the headline on doing that.

Well, let's talk. Well, let's, I apologize. Let's talk about that. Put up B3. Not only she raising money on the west coast, she's raising money from Democrats on the West Coast. The New York Times broke the story this week. Some of Hollywood's Susan Collins to get Hollywood treatment at fundraiser featuring Democrats. Some of Hollywood's most prominent Democrats are set to hold a fundraiser next month for her. Amongst those it's the time says it's doing is Sherry Lansing and Casey Wasserman who again are big, big supporters of Democrats. I know either of them supported you when you ran.

Yes, Casey did for sure.

Yeah, yeah. I mean he was, he was a big supporter of Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton big supporter of, of Joe Biden. So what does that say about. To some extent it says something about Susan Collins because what you said, you like her. Lots of Democrats like her. But Democrats, if they want to take back the Senate, have to have to win that seat. So what some Democrats will say is this is another example of our party playing by namby pamby rules helping Susan Collins get reelected when, if we don't want John Thune to be majority leader. We got to stop helping Susan Collins. We got to help this, this, this lobsterman. So what do you say about how the party grapples with that challenge?

Say that they'll, you know, be critical of donors who decide to support a Republican. And I think that that actually candidly is a little bit unfor. You know, we, we need to kind of go back to the middle in this country and look at people and make those independent evaluations. But I would say on her, what I don't know is, does she have any previous relationships with those people as possible? She's been in, in office for a long time. But I also wonder, and I don't know this, but I also wonder if Israel isn't a factor, because she's been fairly strong in her support of Israel. And my understanding is that she's already criticized her opponent for, for not being as supportive as she is. So there could be an Israel factor in this. I'm not quite sure if, if you.

Were still a Democrat senator and you were at those weekly lunches that senators have with by party and Senator Schumer said, Senator Pryor, should I call Casey Wasserman and, and Sherry Lansing and tell him don't, don't be helping the Democratic Republicans keep the majority, Would you say the party should try to enforce that on these two stalwart donors of the party?

Yeah, I would say no. I, I don't, I don't. Again, I always appreciated all the Republican support I received, and I, I received a lot of it. You know, I was always very moderate. Susan's moderate.

Yeah.

At least by today's standards. You know, she's not really on the Trump train, so to speak. She's, she's going to be in hot water with her, the party's base from time to time on certain issues. And for example, I think she's pro choice, but, you know, I'd say no. You know, let, let's get out there and let's, let's support candidates and let's get good Democrats to run. And apparently they did get a good Democrat to run there. Let's see what happens in Maine and let, let Mainers decide who they want in the Senate.

Yeah, well, that's a, that's a, a very thoughtful position, but I can tell you. Well, I can, I know there's some Democrats. There's some Democrats who are furious about it.

[Michael Caputo]

All right.

[Mark Halperin]

Voter registration. I've talked about this on the program before. Your party is tricked by the Media, which is so loyal to Democrats, into ignoring festering problems. And finally, after many years of clear data showing every state voter registrations moving towards Republicans, finally this week, the New York Times wrote the story that I've been talking about on all my platforms for a long time. The data doesn't lie. In every state where there's data because people register by party. The trend has been towards Republicans, including amongst younger voters and non white voters. Here's the New York Times reporter who wrote the story. I won't say broke the story because the data's been out there, but here's a little video of the New York Times reporter explaining what they found when they looked at the data. This is S8, please. If you want to assess the health of a major political party, take a look at the voter registration numbers. And for the Democratic Party, it's not looking good. We looked at 30 states in America and Washington, D.C. that allow voters to register with a political party. And in those 30 states in the last four years, the Democratic Party lost ground to the Republicans in every single one. Fewer people are now registered with the Democratic Party than there were on election day 2020. So, Senator, there's obviously a multidimensional thing here. There's messaging and brand image. There's also mechanics. If the DNC called you and said, senator, we need your advice, how can the party stop losing voters like this, which is obviously a trend that is not sustainable if the party wants to win the White House back.

Well, I mean, to me, this is basic blocking and tackling that the party needs to be doing all around the country. You know, the state parties need to be doing this, and even the county parties need to be doing this all over the country. And so they need to prioritize it. They need to make it a funding priority for the state parties and for the local parties to get out there and register people to vote. You know, get volunteer groups out there registering people to vote, have a broad strategy on getting people registered. That is, I mean, I think one thing the Republicans understand very clearly is if they can shape the voter registration, then they can really shape how, like legislative bodies and all that look. And so it's really, really important to winning elections. And this is another thing that's frustrating for me is I, I love all my Democratic friends, believe me, I really do. But we, as Democrats, we need to remember that what this is all about is winning elections. We need to be winning elections. And if whatever we're doing is leading toward victory in November, we need to stop doing it. And focus on things that will win us elections. The truth is, Democratic Party is not out of ideas. They're not very good at articulating those ideas. Democratic Party's not out of great leadership. We have a lot of great leadership out there. We just need to get that leadership into the right offices, into the right places, you know, with the right messages. And the truth is we're going to be okay, but we need, there's a lot of work to be done on the Democratic side. And I know the national party just went through a big chairman's race and all that, and I think all that dust is settled now and they're trying to get back to work. But, but in some ways we are behind and we need a very committed program to getting people registered to vote. And then to make sure they do vote. It turns out that the way it works in voting Democrats tend to have a broader appeal, but a less intense appeal. So in other words, we may get a lot of younger voters that register. And that's great. It's really important that we get them to register, but we actually have to get them to vote. And so, you know, this is, this is part of a years long problem for the Democratic Party and it's something we certainly need to apologize.

You talked about leadership. I did my reported monologue earlier about Gavin Newsom. Is there anybody or more than one person who's thinking of running for president? 28. Who you think would be good for the party to be the nominee?

You know, I'm partial to Andy Beshear. And one reason I am is because he's from Kentucky, I'm from Arkansas. He, he's winning in a red state. He's won the Attorney General's office twice. He's run the governor's office twice. I don't know if Andy really wants to run for president, but he's the kind of guy we ought to look at who's able to pull it off like Bill Clinton did in 1992, like what you said. Bill Clinton was able to navigate the pretty conservative waters of Arkansas and keep being elected and reelected. And we need to look for people that have appealed beyond just the blue states. And so I am partial to Andy Bashir.

Okay. How would you rate the performance of Ken Martin, the Democratic National Chairman?

You know, so far so good. I don't follow him on a day to day basis, but I do know that they had a big conference here in Little Rock for like all the state presidents or state party chairs, whatever they had. I don't remember exactly which organization it was. But that they really are trying to emphasize state and local races, which is critical, which is very, very critical for the dnc. So I think, I think he's on the right track. I think he's probably doing a good job. I really don't have any idea. I saw some funding numbers about how they're behind the Republicans, but that's not all that unusual. Again, they've been through a race, internal race. All that's kind of the dust has settled now. Hopefully he's getting himself in gear, has his team around him, and they're really going to get some good stuff done.

Yeah. As you said, fundraising has been a big concern. They're way behind the rnc. And I think one of the biggest undercovered stories now is the possibility. I'm not predicting it, certainly not rooting it. I don't have a rooting interest that J.D. vance wins the Republican nomination with Donald Trump support easily. And all this money which is available to the Republicans for super PAC soft money, dark, with some call dark money from the crypto community from Silicon Valley, which is now tilting for a lot of these people. Elon Musk and others is going to go to Vance. Here's a Wall Street Journal story from this week. B2, please. That Musk, who had talked about starting a third party, now the Journal says is not a surprise, thinking of supporting his friend Vance. And he gave 300 million to support Republicans in the last cycle. I think there's going to be a bunch of billionaires, some from Silicon Valley, who know Vance well and would love their pal to be president who can write really big checks. And although Vance is mocked on social media by the left every day, I raise this question. George W. Bush in 98 ran for reelection in Texas. Democrats did nothing to slow him down and he used that momentum to win the White House. You got Vance, chair of the RNC Finance Committee. No vice president's ever had that. Really boosted by the apparatus in Washington. Should Democrats be doing stuff now and if so, what? To try to keep Vance from going into an election year with $2 billion in the bank and Democrats spending all their money fighting each other.

Yeah, this, this is a real great question. I mean, it's, it's very perceptive. And you're, you're connecting a lot of dots, which is very important. Also in your question, what you're talking about or what you're touching on is what Graham Platner is talking about in Maine, and that is billionaires are running this. The reason they're able to run it is they're buying elections or they're buying the political process. I mean, for someone to put 30 million or 300 million or whatever, the number is ultimately going to be, I don't know what it's going to be. And then by the time you add it all up, it's billions and millions of dollars that are spent on these races. And then you have some, you know, guy here on the street who wants to give somebody $500, and that's a lot of money to him in a political race. You know, he just feels like his voice is just gone. And guess what? It is. And I hate that. That's, I mean, obviously I'm for campaign finance reform for all these things that, to try to make it better. I never have, like Citizens United, all those kind of things. But really our, our, this is, this is very troubling. And I'm not going to single out JD Vance as the bad guy here. He's just operating in the system that we have today. And I'm, I'm really, really concerned about it, that whoever it is, whether it's J.D. vance or somebody, they have so much money going into the next presidential cycle that really nobody can touch them.

So again, if all the candidates who are thinking of running in 28 got you together, got together and said, senator Pryor, what can we do to slow down JD Vance so that we don't wake up in the spring of 2028 and he's got 2 billion in the bank and we've got no money left and, and we beat each other up. Is there a way to slow him down now?

I don't really think that there is because the Supreme Court allows all this kind of stuff to happen. I mean, he can go out and he can accumulate this. And yes, it's true, it doesn't actually go into his campaign account, but it's all laying there for him. It's at his disposal to use to elect J.D. vance as the next president. And I think he's going to do that. Now, of course, some of that is the power of incumbency. When you are the sitting vice president, the heir apparent to the president, yes, the money comes in easier for you, but it's also partly about being a Republican because they have a ton of huge donors on that side. They have so many people that can give a million or 5 million and not even really blink at it, and there's just not that many on Democratic side. So they, they always tend to have a lot more money. We may have One or two big donors, but they have hundreds. And, you know, the whole Coke network and all that stuff is just so huge on their side. So, yeah, it's, it's not good for our country. And again, that's not saying anything bad about JD Vance. I just mean the system right now is not working for people. And again, that goes back to the Democratic candidate in Maine. That's what he's talking about. And he's going to try to tap into that anxiety and even tap into that anger and try to, you know, make, make that race in Maine a referendum on Donald Trump and the current system. We'll see what happens.

Two of the richest families in America, from Arkansas, the Waltons and the Stevenson's, Right? Yeah. They give more to Republicans and Democrats.

Yeah, yeah. And the Waltons, the Walton family is big now and it's diffused because Sam Walton's been gone for a while and you're down to the third generation, even four generations emerging. And, you know, they have a diversity of views on things, but they traditionally, Sam Walton and the immediate family, they were always like Ronald Reagan, Republican Chamber of Commerce, you know.

Yeah, really, there's some Democrats in the family now. As you said last on redistricting, this, this is about money. It's about the aggressiveness of the Trump team to try to keep control of the House. Should a normal person care about all these headlines about redistricting in Texas and California, or it's just process?

No, they absolutely should care because it really goes to the core of, you know, the Constitution. I mean, we have a right, everybody talks about. We have right to vote and all that stuff. It's true. We also have a right to be represented. And the way that the courts allow both parties, but it's mostly on the Republican side, but anyway, both parties to redistrict and just out and out gerrymander for political reasons, it's just obscene. And the truth is, Mark, there's only nine people in the country that can stop it. Nine people. And that's people in the Supreme Court. This is a purely a Supreme Court question. And I would hope and pray that when this, some of this does make its way up to the court, the court finally says enough is enough. You've got to put some sanity back in redistricting, and you've got to follow the principles that we've been laying out over the years. The problem is that the Supreme Court allows partisanship as a factor, and it is a factor. You got to be realistic about that. You allow that as a factor. But they've allowed all these people to elevate that one factor above everything else. And that's the problem. And if the Supreme Court would stop this, I think our democracy, I think our country, I think our people would be happier. I think the democracy would be more sound. I think our elected officials would have to work harder for our votes because there wouldn't be nearly as many safe districts and they'd have to get out there and really listen to minority views in their community. So anyway, I really hope that the Supreme Court will finally put a stop to this.

All right, former Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor from student council president at Walt Whitman High School. Fight on for Whitman, the Vikings.

All right. Yeah. You can sing a fight song on.

The way out to the family business. The United States Senator and then, and then back in Arkansas, Senator, really grateful to you for sharing your wisdom with us and, and pleased to see how well you're doing. Thank you so much.

Great to be with you. Thank you so much. And thank everybody for listening.

Thank you. All right, next up, my conversation with Michael Caputo had the unfortunate experience of fighting both cancer and being canceled simultaneously. His story and how he's come through it, that's next up. Here's a question for you. You got to think about this. Is a continued divide between the Trump administration and the Federal Reserve putting us all potentially behind the curve? Again, can the Fed take the right action at the right time, or are we all going to be looking at a potential economic slowdown? And what would that mean for your savings? Consider then diversifying with gold through the folks at Birch Gold Group. For decades now, gold has been viewed as a safe haven whenever there's economic stagnation, global uncertainty, or high inflation. Birch Gold makes it incredibly easy for you to diversify some of your savings right into gold. If you've got an IRA or an old 401k, you can convert that into a tax sheltered IRA in physical gold. Another option, buy some gold to keep in your safe. But first, before you make that choice, get some education. Birch Gold will send you a free info kit about gold. Just text the word next to the number 989-898. Again, text the word next to 989-898. Consider diversifying a portion of your savings into gold. That way, if the Federal Reserve can't stay ahead of the curve for the country, at least you can stay ahead of the curve for yourself. Next up, a great American story and a great American Michael Kapoor. Kudo is someone I've known for a long time and he's got a great American story. He's got a wonderful family. He has had extraordinary professional success. And he's also done something that many people are called on to do, but not as many do it as elegantly as Michael has. He's taken his personal and professional challenges, and he's fused them together and into an opportunity to help not just himself but the country. Michael has been a longtime operative in the Republican Party as well as in policy, cares about his party and about the country, worked with President Trump and a lot of people in maga. But long before Donald Trump was in the political scene, Michael was. He's also dealt with an extraordinary health challenge during a difficult time for him. And Michael Caputo joins us now to talk about it all. Michael, welcome.

[Michael Caputo]

Thank you for having me, Marcus, it's great to be with you.

[Mark Halperin]

Talk first, just to give people who don't know you about your political resume. How did you start in politics? What have you done in politics and in government over the course of your career?

[Michael Caputo]

Well, I started in the United States Army. I kind of grew up in a, in a rural, you know, sometimes trailer park environment and army was something we had to do to be able to go to college. After I left the infantry and went into the university, I, I interned with Congressman Jack Kemp, who was my congressman as well as my, my quarterback for the Buffalo Bills. I live, I grew up in Buffalo and that, I just took off from there. I went to work for the, the, you know, Reagan in 84 on the campaign, you know, kind of guy on the ground, you know, opening chairs up, you know, I went on to work in Jack Kemp's presidential campaign in 88, went into George H.W. bush's campaign in 92. By then I had started specializing in media relations. When we lost in 92 to Bill Clinton, I took an assignment, a USAID assignment in Russia, where I was in charge of the formation of the new democratic election system in Russia and worked there probably for nigh on seven years. Came back from Russia and got back into just opening my own PR firm. I was involved in the private sector. And then along came Donald Trump. I knew Donald Trump for many years at the 1988 President, I'm sorry, Republican Convention in New Orleans. I was a driver in the motor pool and I was assigned to a visitor named Donald Trump. And I drove him around for a couple of days while he was there and just stayed in touch with him when he was thinking about running for governor in New York in 2013, 2014. I ran that operation when he wanted to buy the Buffalo Bills, my hometown team. I was helping him out with that. And then, of course, I joined the 2016 campaign. I worked at the convention and then stayed out of the administration. Ran my own PR firm still. But then when the nation was struck by Covid, the President asked me to come and be Assistant Secretary of Public affairs at hhs. As you remember, comms were a mess, and I was trying to handle that very highly stressful environment. But I think I should step back for a second, remind folks that because I went to the. Because the Clinton administration sent me to Russia to meddle in their elections, I became very sexy to Robert Mueller because I think I might have been, at the time, the only person before Robert Witkoff to know both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Putin was just the deputy mayor of St. Petersburg when I met him. Not a nice guy. And so I went on to, you know, after going through Russiagate, they took everything, all of our savings, or, you know, what do you call it, legal fees. I was working in the HSS operation. Such stressful stuff. I felt, how much, how much, how much before.

[Mark Halperin]

We'll do the cancer in a sec. How much did you spend in legal fees?

[Michael Caputo]

About 500,000.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. So you. So you and your family, again, as you said, early associated with President Trump, knew him, and then came into the government and had to deal with being investigated. Were you ever charged with anything?

[Michael Caputo]

Oh, no, but it's a long story. But it never stopped. I mean, they're still doing it now. Yeah. If you're a friend of Donald Trump, you're vulnerable. Yeah.

[Mark Halperin]

So you've dealt with cancellation, you've dealt with dealing in the Department of Health and Human Services during COVID and then in the midst of dealing with those things, in the aftermath of those things. Tell us your cancer story.

[Michael Caputo]

Well, I. Since I had to coordinate all the communications, that meant I had to coordinate all the doctors. Anthony Fauci, Robert Redfield, all the doctors who were on tv because nobody wanted to hear from Michael Caputo, who had no idea about. About medicine and science. They wanted to hear from the doctors. I was very busy making sure they could communicate. And so I had them come to my office quite often to discuss the schedule for the next day. One day, Robert Redfield of the cdc, he was sitting next to me, and I turned my head. I was £300, £100 more heavy than I am now. And I turned my head and he poked me in the neck. And he said, michael, what's that? You know, I had the turtleneck of fat. And my, my, my lymph node was poking out hard as a rock. And he said, michael, you got to go to the hospital right now. So they threw me in a car. I went to the nih, where I was met by the surgeon in chief of the United States and the head of the National Cancer Institute. They, apparently, they had gotten a call from somebody in the White House saying, my guy's coming, you better figure out what's going on. And three hours later, they had removed my lymph node. And I left that night, went back to my apartment as I left, you know, because my family was back in Buffalo. I was working in, you know, the quarantine section of Washington. You know, remember how that was. And so I, when I left, I said goodbye to the doctors and I said, I guess I'll hear from you in a week or so. They said, no, we're not allowed to go home until we know the answer. And they called me after I, you know, later that night and told me I had head and neck cancer and that it had likely gone to my brain. And the entire, the entire world crashed around me. You can imagine, I didn't handle it well. I blamed the world for it. It's a stress driven cancer. And I blamed everyone but myself for the stress. And then I went into quarantine from my family. I couldn't. My daughters would sit outside my, my bedroom with their backs to the door and read to me. And after they went to bed, I would open the door and there would be their artwork. They were 5 and 7, you know, and it really became so bad. It wasn't just the cancer because, you know, head and neck kids, there was throat cancer. It's, it's one of the easiest to cure, but it's one of the most difficult to treat because it's the intersection of your breath and your swallow and your voice. And the treatments are quite brutal. It's. It's chemotherapy and 35 doses of radiation to your head. One every day.

[Mark Halperin]

The stories you and I were in touch during that period where you were isolated from your girls while you were dealing with this and his heartbreaking moments and the difficulties. You said it's not the most dangerous cancer, but it's tough to deal with. Talk about how you came through it.

[Michael Caputo]

Well, at one point, because the media was not being kind to me. They weren't being kind to anyone around Trump. And when I fell ill, they were just brutalizing me. New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Politico. Terrible people, terrible stories. And one day I talked to the president. He said, just stop reading this stuff, stop answering emails, stop attending meetings, because I was still assistant secretary. He says, you're gonna. You better take care of yourself. So I stopped paying attention. But it was brutal. And right before Thanksgiving 2020, I decided to die. I decided to let it take me. I stopped eating and drinking. Nobody knew because I was quarantined. And. And then my wife figured it out, and she grabbed me up and tipped me to the hospital, a great hospital in Buffalo that was treating me and Roswell park, by the name, by the way, a leading cancer hospital, luckily, in Buffalo. And I went in there, and the. The nurses later told me that I was trying to die. It was very clear. I hadn't had water or food for days.

[Mark Halperin]

How many days?

[Michael Caputo]

And of course, about four. And it doesn't. It isn't a lot for a lot of people, but was a lot for a person falling fast.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah.

[Michael Caputo]

And the nurse who said one more, she was so kind. She said, you're trying to die, but you can't die when they're feeding you through your arm, you know? And so I was recovering. I came out of there after a very, very profound experience, deciding that I was going to live. Right. And that was Thanksgiving 20, at the end of February. The doctors called me in and they said, michael, we expected to have some kind of news, that we had a next step in your treatment, but we can't find cancer anywhere in your body. And when you have cancer of the throat and it gets into your lymph node, you have to assume it's four inches from your brain. The lymphatic fluid has taken it to your brain fairly quickly. And in fact, by the way, they don't. When they. When it's in your lymph node, they don't take it out because it. You can poke it, and then it's in your lymphatic fluid. It goes through your whole body. I have a PR person's understanding of this, but, you know, because I found out later, they were amazed that I didn't. It didn't go to my brain. Go ahead. Because the president sent me to the NIH and the surgeon in chief of the United States was. Wasn't. Was doing my surgery, and the number two on the surgery was the head of the National Cancer Institute. I was like. I was a sultan, you know, and here I come from a trailer park and. But they don't take out your lymph node because it could go. If they make a mistake, you're. You're done. But he knew how to do it, this fellow, and he took it out. And the folks at Roswell told me the reason why it didn't go to my brain is because immediately they took out the lymph node. That's the only reason I'm alive today.

[Mark Halperin]

So through a combination of great care and lock and good fortune and Lord, you're cancer free now, right?

[Michael Caputo]

I am complete. I got. You know, throat cancer is a little different. They say, no evidence of disease. You know, people who have terrible lung and other cancers, they call it remission because they kind of expect it to come back. It's a little different in throat cancer. And so I'm disease free. And I have been since February of 21. It shocked me. Yeah.

[Mark Halperin]

And you sound and look. You sound and look great. And you've had the good fortune of spending time with some of the people in our country now who, as part of President Trump's Maha movement, are really focused on cancer and beating cancer. And that includes the secretary, Secretary Kennedy includes Dr. Oz. So talk about your vision for the Maha movement as it pertains to cancer.

[Michael Caputo]

Well, you can imagine as a lifelong Republican and a lifelong, I mean, many years of support for Donald Trump, I did not want to like Robert Kennedy. He had said some mean things. But after he endorsed, one of the leaders of the campaign said to me, well, why don't you go and help him? He wants to be involved in the Health Department. Maybe he wants to be HHS secretary. You're the only one. I was in one of the guys on the policy group, and I was doing health policy. They said, go and talk to him. You've been to hhs. You can tell him about, you know, maybe he wants to start, like an operation, warp speed. Maybe he wants to be secretary. Maybe he wants to be an assistant to the president. He didn't know. And so I actually moved in with Rob, with Bobby Kennedy and his wife Cheryl. They had rented Dr. Oz's house in Palm beach to be close to Mar? A Laden, would go to meetings, and I moved in with them for several days. It was a profound experience for me because I went in there thinking, boy, I'm not going to like this guy. And within a day, I understood that he was someone to really be admired. You know, the Bobby Kennedy is unique in Washington, and that makes it difficult for Bobby. You know, I discovered one of the things that made me like him is he's physically unable to lie. And honestly, we were talking about things where I was saying, well, say it this Way he says, michael, I can't do that. I don't lie. And that's a wonderful thing for America. But it's terrible for Bobby Kennedy.

[Mark Halperin]

There's an innocence about him, a sense of wonder about the world that, as you said, keeps him from feeling he can lie and as you also said, makes him a PR handlers nightmare.

[Michael Caputo]

It is. But at the same time, I mean, he had conversations with me and he ended up landing on HHS secretary. But he's like, how do I impact children? He says the chronic disease problem for the children of America is, he says it keeps him up at night. And he wakes up every morning praying that he can do something. And I realized he wasn't lying to me. And so we talked about it and talked about it. And it's interesting because Dr. Oz has a house on the beach there, palm Beach. Like 10 bedrooms, 13 bathrooms. And it was like, I don't know, what do you call it? Big Brother, that TV show. Because all of Bobby's people are there, a bunch of doctors. They each have a bedroom. It's like Big Brother with hippies, you know, and it was just a really wonderful experience. And I, you know, I was allergic to chemo. It was a terrible experience. I went into form. I mean, it blew out my hearing. I have what some doctors tell me is a 9 or a 10 out of 10 tinnitus. It changes your life completely. But one thing it does is it doesn't let you sleep. And so I wake up every day at 4 in the morning. I've adjusted my life to deal with that. But one of the things I had to do on Palm beach was get up and go downstairs. I'm not gonna lay in bed and stare at the ceiling. So I'm in Bobby's rental house. I'm down at the table looking out at the ocean, having a coffee by myself before sunrise. And the next person to get up, of course, is Bobby, because he's an early riser. And we would talk for a little while, but each of the doctors and the hippies would get up and come down and I'd be at the table like I've been there all night. And one day one of the guys said to me, he got up, he wasn't one of the early risers. And he came down. Clearly he had gotten up to talk to me. He said, michael, what is wrong? I said, what do you mean? He says, you're yellow. It's like there's something wrong. What is wrong? Well, first seven months, I was pretty sure my Cancer was back. I had believed that somehow or another, because of my Google, you know, medical degree, I. I believe that my throat cancer had gone to my prostate. And it turned heaven's going bad. And I. I didn't want to go through cancer treatments again, so I didn't tell anyone. And I was just feeling worse and worse. And before I went to Bobby's house, my. My wife pulled me aside and she said, what is wrong with you? You're. You're falling apart. And I told her, I said, I. I think my cancer is back. What are you doing? What are you doing? Have you seen a doctor? I said, no, I don't want to. And she said, do. Do something for me. So I. She had me sign up for this website where you pay a bunch of money and they do 100 different blood tests on you. They actually take like a gallon. You know, I signed up for it, and then I got in the car and I went to Bobby's house. And then four days later, this fellow wakes up and comes down to the table. He says, what's wrong with you? And as a doctor. And I said, I think my cancer is back. And he said, what are you doing about it? I said, nothing. I just really want it to take me. I can't do it again. He said, don't do that. He said, do something. What are you doing? I said, did you tell your wife? I said, I told her, you know, Sunday. And he said, what did you do? And I said, I signed up for this website, right? And Mark, it's funny, he looked at me, he said, what's the name of the website? I said, functionhealth.com. and he said, that's my website. It was Dr. Mark Hyman. And Dr. Hyman said, did you take your blood test yet? No. He said, stand by. And he texted somebody. And I got my blood test that day in Palm Beach.

[Mark Halperin]

And when they diagnosed. What was the diagnosis?

[Michael Caputo]

Well, I'll tell you. I went home because Bobby was later that day picked for hhs. And I said goodbye so he could celebrate with his people. And I went home and Mark called me three, four days. No, no, a couple days later. And he said, michael, you know, I didn't give you a cancer panel, but it looks to me like you've got a kidney stone the size of Jupiter. He said, because you, you know, I don't know, blood in my urine or whatever, the way my. And he said, got to get a scan. He hooked me up with a scan. Sure enough, I had a nearly 2 centimeter kidney stone. And it was stuck in my kidney. And if I had sat there with my Google MD and thought it was cancer, I might have had a failed kidney and really had a problem. I went, had surgery during the inauguration and I'm fine. It wasn't cancer, Mark. It was a kidney stone, which is a kidney stone.

[Mark Halperin]

About the most painful thing out there. Having had one, I can say, in your sense, bigger than mine was. Tell us about your vision now for Maha and for cancer. What. What are they doing? What should they be doing? How. How much hope should people have about this administration's ability not just for kids, but for everybody fighting cancer?

[Michael Caputo]

Yeah. Hope is the key. Right. Because what happened to me is I lost it. I went through. I would go every day, waiting in the waiting room to go get my. My head blasted with radiation. And there were these three children there that were there every day. When I went there, they were there and they were sitting in chairs with me. Three, four days later, they were in Gurney's. A week after that, they were unresponsive to me. And when I said hello, because I remember their names. Yeah. And then they didn't show up again. And I knew they had died. And I thought to myself, after my hearing my allergy to chemo, I thought, first of all, these children should not be getting cancer. They're too darn young. And by the way, what if they're allergic to chemo? The toxins they put in your body to heal you? I have to deal with this for 20 years. They'd have to deal with it for 70. It's unbearable. These poor kids. And Bobby got me focused on childhood cancer. And I believe the administration, through maha, is absolutely focused on this troubling trend that cancer is increasingly striking, younger and younger people. And Bobby and the president are completely focused on young people in this first stage of maha, they're attacking childhood chronic disease. And cancer is the number one chronic disease killer of children. These early onset cancers are growing and growing at a rate that is frightening doctors. And it's growing at a rate that's incomparable to any other nation in the world. So what I believe, because you can imagine, I talk to people in the administration and I'm very interested in this because I believe Maha cancer can change everything. Chemotherapy, the chemo that they gave to me hasn't been really changed since 1890. You believe that? 1890. And they're treating children with ancient medicines. When there are other ways to treat them, we need to discover them. But more importantly, you see the President and his Team very focused on artificial intelligence. There is a reason for this in the health industry, in public health and in childhood cancer. You can use AI to number one using the data we have, we have buckets and buckets of data over history and you can put it into AON within half an hour. You can have answers to what is causing some of this and you can work with children who have the disease to figure out the environmental factors. Maybe it's pesticides, maybe it's food as what's driving this cancer. With artificial intelligence and pushing diagnosis and research into younger ages, we have a spike in cancer. And 20 and 30 year olds, we know that a lot of that came from their childhood. And also we don't discover it because you know, Mark, nobody even asked you about cancer at the doctor until you're 40. Right. Made to make it younger. I believe that the President and Bobby Kennedy are completely focused on this. And by the way, Jay Bhattacharya, an incredible, incredible doctor and I've talked to these fellows, they, they all agree that the causes of cancer in childhood are poorly understood. And there is absolutely something we can do about. I'm talking because, you know, I got healed by, I was cured by, by Roswell park and I went to Moffitt in Tampa to be healed. And then I went everywhere in the nation trying to find an answer to my tinnitus. So I've talked to everyone and there are places like City of Hope that are actually pretty far along the City of Hope in la, they're actually very far along in applying artificial intelligence in diagnosis and research. And we're going to be able to find the environmental causes of cancer in children. Artificial intelligence will break this whole log. Jim, for us.

[Mark Halperin]

Michael, finally tell folks who will say, well, Michael Caputo was dealt with crushing medical news and gave up. Tell folks what they should take from your lesson about whether if they've got a cancer diagnosis or some other really tough diagnosis, how they should react to it.

[Michael Caputo]

I have to tell you, if you're not a person of faith, then lean into your family. I tell my friends I prayed for boys, I got none. I have all daughters and girls take care of their dads. But in addition to that, I don't really want to be preachy about it, but you know, when I, when it was, I was shocked by the no evidence of disease diagnosis. I lived across the street from my parish and I could not, my Catholic parish, I could not go to church. The, the Catholic priest would send the host over to me for Eucharist during The day. And I cured myself with God. But I can tell you my recovery. I, I, I, I was in a bad situation. The antifa was outside my house. You know, they were, they were throwing things at my windows at night to try and keep me awake as I was in recovery. And so my wife and I and my children, we moved to Florida because I wanted to go to church and I couldn't. Right. And we moved to a little town called Ave Maria. It's in, it's in the Everglades in Florida where the founder of Domino's had built a beautiful cathedral. And now there's 11,000 Catholics here. And so I showed up and I really didn't get out of bed here for weeks and weeks and weeks. And then when I did, I realized that going to mass wasn't enough. I'm actually in a master's program for theology at Ave Maria University. I know people think that's shocking considering what a smash mouth politician I've been, really. In the end, there is only one way to be healed and it's your faith. It really is, and your family can get you there. But I gave up. I really did.

[Mark Halperin]

But yeah, Michael has not talked much about this and we've just scratched the surface, but it's a great American story. Every cancer struggle is in some ways the same, but everyone's different. And very few people have to fight for their lives and deal with cancer while they're also being investigated by a special counsel and dealing with attempts to cancel. So, Michael, it's a great story and a brave story, and it's testament not to the support of your family, but also to your extraordinary struggle and determination. And I couldn't be happier, couldn't be happier to see you looking so great.

[Michael Caputo]

I want to thank you for all the cancer content that you've put out there. You didn't have to do that. I can tell you. A lot of us with cancer and post cancer are watching.

[Mark Halperin]

Appreciate it. That's a show I do called cancer decoded with Dr. Patrick Sunshine, who owns Los Angeles Times and is one of the most renowned cancer experts in the country. And I'm just sorry, honored to be partnered with him on that program and, and, and have learned so much about struggles like yours. And as I said, all the struggles, all the challenges are the same in some ways, but everyone's unique and yours is a pretty special story. And Michael, we're so grateful to you for sharing it.

[Michael Caputo]

Thank you, Mark.

[Mark Halperin]

That is it for today's episode. Grateful to you for watching. Make sure you subscribe and download NextUp wherever you get your podcasts, it's on YouTube and pretty much everywhere else. Grateful to to you for being a nexter. Please keep watching so you always know what's coming next up.