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Welcome in to NextUp, you nexters from North America around the world. I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief of the live interactive platform Two Ways, and the host here of everything. Next up, another week. It's Tuesday and you know what that means. A brand new episode. We're happy to have you here. I'll bring you my exclusive reporting on a topic that we've talked about a little bit, but I think super important now in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, stories that matter most to us are important and this one is as big as anything. And then next up after that, Maureen Callahan, columnist for the Daily Mail, host of the Nerve, My Sister program here on the Megyn Kelly Network. Maureen and I are going to talk about writing, arithmetic, pop culture and celebrity, so you won't want to miss that. But first up is my new reporting on Charlie Kirk. Put aside the day to day headlines of what's happened since his assassination. I think the bigger thing here is what Charlie represented, the person. And his death, of course, matters extraordinarily to the people in his family, his friends, business associates, colleagues. But I've been thinking a lot about what it means more broadly and talking to a lot of people in the conservative movement who can explain this so well. MAGA folks who I've talked to in the last few days, reflecting on Charlie's life and why this has been so impactful. You hear about the impact not just from the president and the vice president and people who knew Charlie personally, but I've been struck on two way and other conversations as I've traveled the last few days. How much people who never knew Charlie and weren't even particularly aware of what his day to day activities were, how much they've been struck by this. Now, part of it is just the horror of what happened and the horrible images of his murder that resonate with any human being. But a lot of it is, for people in this country supported President Trump even in many cases when they didn't like him. Why is this so powerful? I think Charlie, biographically and in terms of what he did in his career has so many of the elements that have caused the MAGA movement to grow. Donald Trump, it's often been said, didn't lead this movement so much as figure out was there and get to the front of the line, front of the parade and lead folks, organize folks. What's happened here, I believe, is that Charlie's life, Charlie's biography is so resonant with folks because of the strands that it represents. For decades, conservatives in this country have felt aggrieved, alienated, shut out from so much of what is sometimes called the mainstream because liberal institutions, the media, universities, big corporations, in many cases Hollywood news, and so many of the big institutions have not just alienated people on the right, but often hurt them, kept them from job advancement, kept them from having rewarded times in college, kept, kept them from getting, getting fair media coverage if they were in politics. Charlie represented so many of the themes, so many of the specifics that people in MAGA have reacted against, and his death, his murder has made them feel like one of their champions, one of their great success stories was eliminated as a symbolic pushing back. Regardless, regardless of who actually pulled the trigger. Charlie was not, in his life, given credit by the establishment that he should have been. Had Charlie Kirk been a Democrat and done what he done in service of, say, Barack Obama, he would have been one of the most fetid, celebrated, profiled, championed people in America. Now, Charlie got plenty of credit in certain circles. This program certainly paid respect to what an extraordinary life he had. But he was not treated the way he'd been. Hey, he wouldn't have been a Democrat. So what are these themes? What are these elements of Charlie's life that the establishment, the liberal establishment in particular, did not celebrate, did not feel a closeness to? I'd start with his education. Not only did Charlie not go to an Ivy League school or some other fancy school, Charlie didn't graduate from college. And the establishment, again, the liberal establishment, I'll use them interchangeably, they don't respect that, they don't like that, they don't identify with that. So for a lot of folks who Knew Charlie's story. The fact that he was so successful running a $100 million company, friends with presidents, vice presidents, other leaders didn't graduate from college, rubbed some people the wrong way, kept him from being seen the way he should have been seen. And for people in this country less educated, of course, a huge reason Donald Trump was elected president twice and almost won a third time was that education divide. Right? There's no more important demographic divide in America now between red and blue than education. President Trump, historically, you see it in the polls today, does better with less educated voters. And Charlie represented that got a life education in the real world but didn't graduate from college. Next, religion, right? The Democratic Party has become the secular party. And this is not a subjective judgment. The polls show it. Charlie wore his faith on his sleeve. Charlie had Jesus Christ as his savior. And Charlie didn't shy away from that. He didn't pull his punches when he spoke in secular locations like in some universities. He didn't hide from it. He didn't shy away from it, nor did he judge others because of it. But by being a man of faith, by saying, I am doing this to make the world a better place, to do the Lord's work here on earth, the liberal establishment doesn't get that. They don't identify that. And the fact that Charlie was religious and that that came kept him from achieving the. The approval of, of people on the left. Again, that's a theme. You hear it time and again from religious conservatives. You see it in the fights over school curriculum. You see them for some fights that occurred around Covid. People of faith are not treated the same by the liberal establishment. They're looked down on their scorn, they're discriminated against. Charlie Rose rose above that. But that theme, very resonant. And he was well aware of his ability to use that to his advantage to rally people of faith around him. He lived in Arizona. There's another example of the bias. Great place, love it in Arizona. But the east coast liberal media establishment, they just don't credit people achieving things that aren't in the bicoastal space. Charlie also achieved his success without the help of the left. And you look at all the great things that have risen up and again, Donald Trump, exhibit A. All the extraordinary stories of success from maga, Charlie and the President, first and foremost, I would say as president, getting elected president, bigger deal. But to develop that kind of power, that kind of following without the help of the left, going around the liberal media, not needing the money of people on the left not needing the help from universities or Hollywood establishment doesn't like that it's a threat to their power. Charlie's success occurring that way really undermined people on the left and it's a great source of inspiration to people in maga. Right. Charlie started a popular show, a popular video podcast. He didn't need CBS News or NBC News or the New York Times to help him do that. That ability was a great source of pride for Charlie, great source of pride for his followers. But again, it's another way in which here's a guy rises up, develops a successful show on his own, and then he's eliminated. Okay, another one related. Charlie was not chummy with the establishment media. He was respectful to them. And you can find probably as for as as much for Charlie as any leading MAGA figure. You will find lots of liberal reporters who had dealings with him, he was friendly with, who he was often agreed to do interviews with, sometimes surprised me, but he didn't need them and he didn't really associate with them. He did not. You know, there's some people, even some conservatives, who will fly to Washington D.C. or New York and do editorial boards or go out to dinner with reporters. Charlie didn't do that much because he didn't need to and he didn't really want to. He'd rather be home with his family and long flight from Arizona. But that's different. And, and the fact that someone without being chummy with the establishment price could succeed and then be eliminated, that's another one that has really inspired people while he was alive and, and frustrates people now that he has been killed. Threat to their power. Right. You think about Charlie threaten universities, a hammer lock hold on their students, going on university campuses and telling conservatives, you don't need to listen to the, to the establishment, you don't need to listen to the administrators, you don't need to listen to the liberals on this campus. You can do what you want. Okay? Threat to their power starts a popular success, commercially successful video program. Doesn't need the establishment to do that, says, I'm going to help President Trump get elected by figuring out how to register people to vote and turn them out. Again, a threat to the establishment. All of these things, all of Charlie's achievements, whether it's turning Point, whether it was voter registration, whether it was his show, whether it was his capacity to influence Congress, all those things he did not only without the help of the establishment. He did it by undermining the establishment's hold on power. They hated that the extent they thought about it, a lot of them were too naive to understand just how effective he was and ignorant. But all of those things were a threat. And that's why he got all this negative coverage to the extent he was covered when he was alive. Now that he's passed, now that he's been killed, you see some positive coverage of him in places like the New York Times and cnn. Makes my stomach turn that only because he's dead that they're giving him some positive coverage. Not universally so to say the least, but all of these things being a threat to their power. But in the end, all those things that I've listed are super important. They're super important to why Charlie was so beloved and so many people are proud of him in the conservative movement, but they also speak to why his death, his murder, has made so many people in MAGA upset. There's the personal reason, but the symbolism of someone who did all of those things, who overcome all of those biases, all of those prejudices, was a success. Now, to have his life ended, it makes them sad and it makes them angry. But the two biggest factors are the fact that he was a conservative and that he was pro Trump. Right? And this is where the decades of history of all these institutions being biased against conservatives and Republicans changes. When Donald Trump comes on the scene again, make no mistake, you can go back to Nixon and Reagan and the Bushes. Extraordinary bias against Republicans and conservatives, but Trump made it different. Donald Trump's rise on the scene, even though, again, ironically, his whole career, including his 2016 presidential campaign, featured Trump's close relationship with a lot of these cultural institutions that are liberal. They like Trump. He used to be a Democrat and a liberal, but as they turned on him after he beat Hillary Clinton, as they turned on him, anyone in this country, pro Trump and pro conservative, is discriminated against by these liberal cultural institutions. And I've heard it for 10 years now, people saying they can't wear a MAGA hat, they can't say on a. On a zoom call in their workplace, I'm for Trump. Now. Since he's been reelected in 2024, that's changed somewhat. It's been one of the most, I think, under discuss, under discussed, under understood, maybe misunderstood developments. Where you see it in the, you know, the changes in the DI programs, you see it in the willingness of some people to be way more outspoken about supporting Donald Trump. But from 2016 to 2024, and even now, all of the things that I've listed about Charlie that set him Apart from the establishment approval matrix, they're front and center. And again, to be a conservative, to be openly for Donald Trump, even now, in many places, is to court big trouble and to risk hurting your career. Charlie's legacy is multifaceted, right? There's so many things he achieved that people will remember him for. But perhaps I think his biggest achievement, and this relates to why people are so upset about his death, is 31 years old, didn't grow up with connections, wasn't really involved on the national stage in a significant way until 2016 when he started to travel with Don Jr. Was his capacity to say, I will use hard work, I will use principle, I will use my faith, I will use my big brain to do all these things that the liberal establishment doesn't want a pro Trump conservative who's religious to do, and I'll succeed at them. It's hard to think of anyone 31 years old in the United States who's had the kind of meaningful, meaningful achievement that Charlie Kirk had. You know, there's athletes and there's musicians. But I'm talking about changing the real lives of real people, of inspiring people, of uplifting people, of getting young people in particular to. Into the political system. All these things I'm talking about. Now, you could. You, could you. I could talk to Donald Trump about it, or J.D. vance or Don Jr. Or Speaker of the House, they'd all get it. They'd all. They'd all. They'd all probably be a little bit bored because they'd say, duh, of course. But what I'm concerned about is, as I've tried to give a version of this, Have a version of this conversation with Democrats that I know, blank looks. Blank looks. First of all, they don't understand what Charlie achieved. Even now, even as it's been covered since his murder, they still don't get it. They still don't understand what made him so different. We've tried to talk about that here. I've talked about it everywhere since he was assassinated because I think it's so important that the left understand, first of all, they should understand history. But second of all, they need to appreciate why people on the right are so upset. But they also don't understand because they cannot compute in their heads how someone could have so much success going around the complex matrix of power that they put in place through their liberal institutions to keep people like Charlie from succeeding. And the only reason Charlie succeeded at pretty much everything he tried to do was because of his extraordinary gifts, his determination, his faith, his Big brain and the relationships he built. This disconnect, this disconnect where they don't see Charlie as anything but kind of some Trump flunky. They do not see what he achieved and they do not see the symbolism, all the things that the liberal establishment tries to control. Charlie had and he survived and thrived. A non Ivy League, Christian, Western Western living guy who avoided the media or didn't seek their approval or their help with non traditional experience. Pro Trump conservative, all of that was an extraordinary threat to their power. And taking him off this earth has caused a visceral reaction on the right because they get all that. He was their champion of ideas and he was their champion of political success and organization. But for many of them, he was a champion of making a statement that In America in 2025, you can be all those things and a huge success. And what a setback for people inspired by him, including a lot of young people who want to be able to say what they want to say on campus, even if they're not necessarily super maga. They want a university, a college to live up to what it's supposed to be, a place where people can say what they think, the ideas that matter to them. Whether others agreed or disagreed. And now an assassin has said, no, no, he can't do that. The reason why so many who love Charlie are determined to make sure that not only does his record, his accomplishments, his personal story lives on, but the work must continue. Because if someone who overcame all of those things, all of those establishment tripwires don't come in here and try to succeed. If you're a religious conservative who likes Donald Trump, don't try it in America. If someone who overcame all of that is eliminated by an assassin's bullet and he is not replicated, I won't say replaced, but replicated in some way so that people can see that what Charlie did could work for others. If that doesn't happen, you will see a lot of anger, more than you see now. That's why their determination is so high. Charlie's achievements, seen in the context in which I am putting them, that for him to do what he did required overcoming pretty much every list of bias the liberal establishment has, every list of a threat that they would feel, a practical threat, psychological, emotional. For him to succeed is an extraordinary story. I'll keep telling the story because I, I think it's so important to understand the MAGA movement and to understand the life of this extraordinary young man. But I ask again for people on the left listening to my Voice watching me now understand what the death, the murder, the assassination of Charlie Kirk means not just to prominent Republicans, but to rank and file people around the country. It's not just the loss of a leader or a friend or a guy with a degree of success. It's the elimination of someone who demonstrated not just that he could overcome all these biases, but that he could thrive and start to change the system to set an example. As I traveled around the country in 2024, going to Trump events and meeting people who supported President Trump, often events that Charlie was at or his organization, Turning Point, was involved in, I saw a different kind of young conservative than I'd seen during my career. Not shy, not afraid, willing to go publicly to a rally, to be on social media, to be visible on campus. Now, liberal students have had that capacity, have had that right, have had that opportunity for as long as I've been on college campuses. What Charlie played a role in, as much as anyone else, was to make this possible for young conservatives. And I continue to be struck the week following his murder by how many kids say to me, younger people, college age or thereabouts, or their parents say to me, this is really hard, not just because of what Charlie did, kind of in a day to day way, but the symbolism. To say this guy who said to young people who are conservative or interested in conservative ideas, not necessarily full on maga, I'm going to come to your campus. I'm going to take on all comers, I'm going to take questions, I am going to celebrate the free exchange of ideas. In some ways, there couldn't be anybody worse to have assassinated, truly, because he, he was killed doing the thing that was the most resonant, the most symbolically resonant for young people and for people in maga. Universities are as liberal as any other cultural institution. We have more than the media, more than Hollywood. Hard to believe I could say that, but it's true. And universities were places that Charlie put so much emphasis on. Now he doing it for political reasons. He wanted Republicans and MAGA to get a higher percentage of young voters, which President Trump did in 2024. But I know from talking to him about it, he loved the symbolism of it. He loved the capacity to free the voices and souls and independence of conservatives in this country who could walk around a college campus and participate in a contest of ideas without fear of being canceled or shut down. And again, I say to folks on the left, they have their grievances, the folks on the left have their grievances and I'm happy to talk about those, too, even at this time when front and center is the aftermath of the death of Charlie Kirk. But what they also have, and you'll hear this from conservatives, they've got these institutions. These are dominant cultural institutions in our country. Or as much as the rise of Turning Point in Fox News and other places, these institutions continue to be loom large in the psyche of conservatives, rank and file conservatives who watch the coverage of their movement and feel like second class citizens, if they feel like citizens at all. The left is consumed with Donald Trump, his violation of norms, the policies they disagree with, and that's what politics is about. They don't like this guy's policies, but their failure to understand that part of what powered Donald Trump, part of what powered Charlie Kirk was their willingness to say, we're not going to rely on these liberal cultural institutions. We're going to go over them, around them, through them, in some cases, create our own institutions like Charlie did with his show. But we're also going to inspire tens of millions of people to say in America, you can be a Trump loving religious conservative who didn't go to an Ivy League school and doesn't live in Boston, Washington or New York, and you can still succeed. And the tragedy of his death has been compounded by the failure of the left to acknowledge these things. What an extraordinary set of achievements he had against the odds, not just not having gone to college, but against the odds of all of these liberal cultural institutions afraid of losing power to someone like him. Now, as I said, he benefited from the fact that they didn't even know what was happening fully, but they knew enough so that people like Charlie, same demographics, same attitude towards all these institutions, but without his robust talents. A lot of them are now scared. They're afraid. They're worried that his passing, his murder, leaves them in a position without a leader and without the templates that he was building. And what people like the vice president and people around Donald Trump plan to do is to make sure that the template stays. I don't know that there'll be anybody as charismatic as Charlie or as brilliant as he was in understanding how to thrive in the face of hostility from these cultural institutions. But there are plenty of donors and activists and political strategists who are going to give it a try. And I ask for people on the left, even as you fight with them in a spirited way over the ideas and the raw politics that are surely sitting before us. Take a moment and think about why this means so much to people on the right, take a moment to understand the murder of Charlie Kirk and how it is seen and felt by people whose capacity to fight back for decades was so limited. And with the rise of digital technology and with the rise of the grassroots MAGA movement and with the advent, as a miracle, of the singular soul of Charlie Kirk, there was a period where those folks felt, yeah, we can do this. And now, at least it's as it is done, through Charlie Kirk as a vehicle, they've lost that. It's a sad, personal story, but it is a story of our time. Again, there are grievances on the left that are very legitimate, very legitimate and need to be given voice, too, but they're not like this. This is an asymmetrical difference. One side has controlled these institutions. One side has largely set the rules. What can you say? Where can you work? Who can you be friends with? Where can you have a bank account? What can you put on social media? One side, up until just recently, has controlled all of that. And Charlie, with optimism and confidence and a plan vision, said, nope, we're not going to kowtow to these institutions. In some cases, we'll create our own. In some cases, we'll do it entrepreneurially without big institutions. That's what people in maga, that's what people on the right feel. The loss of someone who would say with confidence and faith and optimism, we're not going to be held back by that. We will use our brains and hard work to give a new generation of young conservatives the opportunity to speak and worship and love and. And. And thrive and grow, get jobs, get home, start families. We will give them an opportunity to do that in America, where there isn't an asymmetrical advantage. If you happen to be liberal. That is Charlie's legacy. That is his loss or our loss as a country. And it's a loss of a conservative movement. And that loss must be appreciated by everybody. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. It's a fact. And if people on the left want to ignore it or pretend it didn't happen and pretend they don't see the significance, there's going to be a lot more anger. It doesn't cost anything to admit the truth. People on the left should admit the truth. What gave Charlie Kirk the opportunity to be what he was, as big as he was, was his hard work and his big brain and his faith. But it was also because the kind of walls, the kind of limits, the kind of bigotry that the left set up against People like him is not sustainable. It's lasted a long time in many instances. But we know what the human spirit is like. We know what someone like Charlie with an entrepreneurial mindset can do. And what Charlie said, running parallel to President Trump said, is we are not going to let another generation suffer through cancellation, silencing denial. Wasn't going to let it happen. He's gone now and we'll see if other people can pick up that torch, that baton from him. But I'll say one more time, people on the left, please, please listen to what I'm saying. Understand that this is not just a personal tragedy, tragedy for a family. This is a big moment in American history where someone who did what should have been impossible, made it possible, was killed and can't do it anymore. They're not going back. And there's plenty of people who are still around who have the same vision as Charlie. But the reason there's so much sadness and so much anger is he was a singular force, singular biography, singular accomplishments. And now he's gone. Grateful to you for listening and wonder what you think of what I said. Send me an email. Nextup halpernmail.com Would love to hear from you. Whether you agree or disagree, you can always find this program on x on Instagram, TikTok have the same handle on all of them. Nextup halpern. And of course, if you'd like to watch the show and not just listen to it, see if I happen to be wearing on any given day, go to YouTube. YouTube.com NextUp Halperin grateful to you. Next up, Maureen Callahan, my colleague here at the Megyn Kelly Network. We're going to talk a little popular culture. That's next up. All right, so let me now tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on the road and he came across a dog. It was a Doberman who was severely underweight, clearly in a lot of trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and he gave them a name. He called him Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start something called Delta Rescue. It's the world's largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary. They've rescued over the years thousands of dogs and cats and horses from the wilderness and provide each animal with shelter, love, safety and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals, that's Leo's mission and it's Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us to do its good work. 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