← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
How Minnesota Sparked a National Immigration Debate, and Intra-GOP "War" Fight, with Rep. Dingell and Rich Lowry
01:07:36
Mark Halperin opens with his reported monologue arguing that America is losing sight of what matters by obsessing over elites, gossip, and political theater instead of grappling with the serious policy questions that matter. He makes the case that the media and political class are crowding out first-principles debates at a moment when the stakes could not be higher. Mark then turns to foreign policy and constitutional power, breaking down a revealing Senate exchange between Rand Paul and Marco Rubio that forces a hard rethink of what actually constitutes an act of war. The debate goes beyond partisanship and raises uncomfortable questions about American power, moral consistency, and the limits of executive authority. The episode closes with two deep dives on immigration. Congresswoman Debbie Dingell joins Mark to discuss why the scenes in Minneapolis have unsettled the country and to wrestle with the most difficult deportation cases, the millions who fall between clear extremes. Th...
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Commercial Announcer
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
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Mark Halperin
Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Oh, yeah.
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Mark Halperin
Huh?
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Discover is accepted where I like to shop.
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Mark Halperin
Come on, baby, get with the times. Right.
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback, I think.
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Rich Lowry
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Mark Halperin
Hello and welcome, everybody. This program, it's called NextUp. Some people call it NextUp with Mark Halpern. I feel that's excess overkill beyond what's needed to be said. Call it NextUp. But I am Mark Halpern, editor in chief of the live interactive video platform two Way, and I'm your guide to everything. Next up in whatever interests us as a collective group. Glad to have you here. You click through to the right place, or maybe you downloaded whatever you did, maybe even the served up by the algorithm. That's fine with me, too, as long as you're watching or listening. Now, this program available on YouTube and as a podcast, however you got here, on whatever platform you're on, you're in the right place. Let me tell you what we're doing today. First, my reported monologue. I've been doing a ton of reporting on lots of different stories and consuming a lot of media as you do. And this is not a new problem, but it's a problem right now, and it's a worst problem in the digital age. We got to talk about serious stuff. There's some extraordinarily big policy issues facing the United States today. They're fascinating, but they're super important. And what I'm finding is too much of the conversation, including too much the reporting that comes my way, and sometimes guilty as charged I pursue is a little bit more frivolous. So we're going to try to talk about some of the serious stuff today and explain why it's important after that. Congressman Debbie Dingell will be here. She's a Democrat from Michigan, very longtime public servant, been involved in national politics, politics in her home state of Michigan for a long time. She's a very thoughtful person. She's of the left, but she talks to Republicans as much or more than any Democrat I know. She always has and is concerned about the country. We're going to talk about the issues facing Minnesota and the country related to these questions of immigration. And I'm going to put her on the spot and ask her some of the harder questions that I think her party and a lot of people on the left grapple with about who should be deported from this country. Then Rich Larry will be here, editor, Editor in chief of the National Review. Love talking to Rich, a very smart guy. We'll talk also about his views of Minnesota, including some of these policy choices the Democrats are arguing for Should ICE agents, border patrol, should they be wearing masks? Should they be allowed to wear masks? What kind of warrants should they need? And also, again, this question of everybody agrees the worst of the worst should be deported. Everybody agrees there's some cases of folks who, even if they came here illegally, should stay. But then there's literally millions of people. And we're going to try to hone in with Rich as well on that debate of the millions in the middle between those two polls, who should be deported. But next up, first up, my reported monologue on the important policy discussions we should be having in this country. That's next up. We all know that small businesses are the backbone of the American economy, but getting funding from traditional banks can be an uphill battle. Of the 36 million small businesses in the US over 70% report needing additional capital every year while revenue is at an all time high for them, big banks are tightening standards and approving fewer loans than ever, leaving owners stuck with mountains of paperwork. But if you want bank rates without the bank delays, check out Cardiff Co Mark for up to $500,000 in same day funding. Cardiff is the largest privately held small business lender in the United States, having funded over $2012 billion since 2004. Their application takes less than five minutes, it's got no impact on your personal credit and approvals happen in minutes. With same day funding, banks try to lock out small businesses. Cardiff has the key Big banks may not want to approve your business loans, but Cardiff does. If you've been in business for at least a year and are pulling in $20,000 a month in revenue or more, apply now for for up to $500,000 in same day business funding at Cardiff Co Mark again go to Cardiff Co Mark Real Growth Fast funding Cardiff Borrow better. All right, first up, next up, my reported monologue on how we deal with tough questions in our democracy and in this constitutional republic. You know, I do a ton of reporting all the time for this show for next up for two ways for my newsletter. And I'm talking to people, texting with people, emailing citizens around the country, but also people in politics, people in government, elected officials. And, and some weeks there's 100 stories. Minnesota is dominating. But there's a, there's lots of other stories out there. And I, I'm less interested in gossipy stories than a lot of people in my business and in politics. I just am, I'm more interested in great stories, but are great narrative stories and important stories and then, and then substantive policy discussions. But I get drawn into these conversations and, and I report on them. There's some right now that if you saw my inbox or, or listen to my calls, you'd hear me engaging on Melania Trump's movies coming out this week, big premiere and, and then it's in theaters. Will that be a success? It's an interesting story. It's a gossipy story, too. You'll see that covered on the gossip pages. Will Kristi Noem be ousted as Homeland Security secretary? I did some reporting on that this week as well. I wrote about exclusive story on the Daily Mail, a column about, about her chances. I think she's probably going to stay, but that's some people are interested in. Now. It's not pure gossip. It's. There's a substantive question there, but again, it doesn't affect the real lives of real people. If she's not Homeland Security secretary, somebody else will be. I got a tip this morning that a cabinet secretary, prominent cabinet secretary, was on the way out. I've spent some time reporting on that. Haven't confirmed it yet. But again, not a policy argument, not something about the fundamentals of America. A lot of people contacted me about Gavin Newsom. Is he a phony? That's a big gossipy story that people talk about. Then right before we started today, I saw a thing that somebody texted me and asked me what I knew about it. Ted Cruz was at the White House when Nicki Minaj was there for this event on the Trump savings accounts. And there's chatter that he was denied a photo op with Nicki Minaj. Again, some of you would say, oh, my goodness, Mark, I hope that's what your monologue is about. These are such interesting topics. The Melania movie, Kristi Noem being fired Gavin Newsom, whether he's a phony. The denied, allegedly denied. Ted Cruz, Nicki Minaj photo op again, if we wanted to do the whole show on that, we could. But that's not what I'm here to talk about. What I'm here to talk about is there's something wrong with America that we can't have serious discussions. There's so much coverage of Minnesota, so much coverage of ICE and border protect, border protection and the personalities of the president and Homan and Governor Waltz. Too much of the conversation, in my view, is about these things. Too much. The conversations about who's up and who's down. Okay, Politico Playbook. It's a morning tip sheet that's been published by Politico for a long time. And they're writing about this morning about the Democrats list of demands to keep the government open to avoid a partial government shutdown. A of changes in policy that they want to see about how ICE conducts itself on the ground in Minnesota and around the country. Here's how Politico this a one. Here's how they framed the Democratic efforts to force the hand of the White House and Congressional Republicans to change. They say if it turns out to be true, that they they do get some deal done. This would be a decent win for Democrats who spent all week demanding DHS funding be pulled out of the larger government funding package. In the wake of Saturday's fatal shooting of Alex Preddy in Minnesota Senate Dems yesterday set out a list of reforms to ICE that they want to see the price of their support for DHS funding. So there's a Washington process story about whether or not the Democrats are going to get their way because they have this leverage. Decent win for the Democrats. I just don't think that's the way we should be talking about it. Is it a win for Democrats or would it be a win for the American people? And the question of whether it would be a win for the American people has to do with some of these really fundamental things that they're asking about. These are hard policy issues. Should, should the ICE officials be able to wear masks? Big policy discussion? Should they be able to go into the homes, private homes, without a judicial warrant? Should there be body cams on the officers? Should, what kind of coordination should there be between ICE and local officials? These are policy questions undergirded by fundamental questions about America, fundamental questions about about who we are as a people, what kind of policies are consistent with American values. And a lot of these arguments typically will be purely partisan. Policies that, that if a Democrat did them, Democrats would be less upset. They're now upset because Donald Trump or Republicans doing them. Barack Obama deported a lot of people. Now, it wasn't conducted this way. A lot of it was on the border rather than in other states. But we've got to find a way as a country, as in the media, in politics, social media, we have to engage these debates. Can we still talk about the gossipy stuff and do this? We can, but too much of this is being crowded out. And I'm on this show. You'll see with the guests. I'm going to talk to them about some of these tough policy questions. But we've got to in the media first and foremost, because a lot of people in politics and government, they would like to talk about the substance, but they're relentlessly asked by my colleagues who's up and who's down, who's going to win, who's going to get a decent victory. That's not the question that we should be focused on. The question we should be focused on is we're going to have border security. We're going to have, we're going to have people deported. We're going to have an agency, whether it's ICE or somebody else and, and, and border control. We're going to have them in the country under this president, going around communities and looking for people who they think should be removed. And then we're going to have sometimes judicial involvement, the third branch of government involved, and we're going to have a Congress scrutinizing all this and in this case, one party making demands for policy changes. Then we're going to have the actual operations. And Homans made it clear Thursday morning that he wants to coordinate better with the Democrats. That's great. Right? There's the policies and then there's the practice and a lot of the things the Democrats are demanding now in terms of policy that deserve a big full conversation. They're dependent on legal changes and then policy changes and then the enactment of those policies. These are big issues, right? They go into the community and they see somebody, should they be able to ask somebody, let me see your papers, what's the probable cause to ask that? If they happen to arrest someone who's an Amer or detain someone, rather, who's an American citizen, and they've done it in an improper way, should that citizen have some compensation? That's one thing Democrats are talking about. I'm not weighing in right here, although I have views on some of these things. I'M not weighing in on these policies. The current policy in practice versus what Democrats are asking for. What I'm weighing in on, we've got to have a national town square that includes the media where these things are actually discussed in a serious way. We do that on this program. We do that on two way. But this needs to be more widespread. Okay, let me give you another example. A massive policy discussions. Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, was on Capitol Hill Wednesday before his old colleagues in the Senate and Foreign Relations Committee. And there was a lot of focus up on the clashes that were had. People thought the secretary did great. Even Democrats I talked to said virtuoso performance. The guy's just right now at the top of his game. He had heated clashes with Democrats. He also had a very robust conversation with a fellow Republican, Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator Paul is. Is singular. He's a thorn in the side of his party, often because he is singular. He's a principled civil libertarian. He wasn't a politician. His dad, of course, was in politics, but he was a doctor and he ran for the Senate. And he is often the only Republican who votes a certain way. He's often the only senator of either party who stands athwart the legislative process and says, nope, we're going to have to have some questions here. You might agree with him on some issues, disagree with him on other, but, but, but he's a principled guy and he's consistent, and he raises questions often that no one else will raise, certainly no one else in his party. So a couple weeks ago, the President United States ordered the US Military to go into Venezuela and take Maduro out. Now, was Maduro the President of Venezuela? He said he was, but he was. He was elected in a fraudulent election according to not just the United States and people in Venezuela, but people around the world. But nonetheless, he was acting as the president. And what Senator Paul wanted to know from Marco Rubio was what happens if someone did that to the President of the United States? What happens if someone said Joe Biden was not legitimately elected? He stole the election, he's illegitimate, and we've indicted him on some crimes. We're going to go take him. And they came into the United States and they took our President out of the United States and said, we're going to put him in trial in our, in our country, let's say, hypothetically, Denmark did that. And what Senator Paul wanted to know was what would the United States think about that if the shoe were on the other foot here's some of the conversation between Rand Paul and Marco Rubio. A serious substantive conversation about American principles. This is S9, please.
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Senator Rand Paul
So I would ask you, if a foreign country bombed our air defense missiles, captured and removed our president and blockaded our country, would that be considered an act of war?
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Senator Marco Rubio
Well, I think your question is about the. I will acknowledge you've been very consistent on all these points the entire career. So let me, let me, no matter who the, who's in charge. So I will point to two things. The first is it's hard for us to conceive that, that an operation that lasted about four and a half hours and was a law enforcement operation to capture someone we don't recognize as a head of state indicted in the United States, wanted with a $50 million question.
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Senator Rand Paul
Would be, if it only took four hours to take our President very short. Nobody dies on the other side. Nobody dies on our side. It's perfect. Would it be an act of war?
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Senator Marco Rubio
We just don't believe that this operation comes anywhere close to the constitutional definition of.
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Senator Rand Paul
But would it be an act of war if someone did it to us? Nobody does. Guys, few casualties, they're in and out, Boom. It's a perfect military operation. Would that be an act of war? Of course it would be an act of war. I'm probably the most anti war person in the Senate and I would vote to declare war if someone invaded our country and took our president. So I think we need to at least acknowledge this is a one way argument. One way arguments that don't rebound, that you can't apply to yourselves, that cannot be universally applicable are bad arguments.
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Mark Halperin
Amen, Rand Paul. This is a debate we need to have because it has to do with the power of the presidency, has to do with the power of Congress. It has to do with what is, what is an act of war. And, and often the, the argument for this administration and other presidents of both parties have been, we're the United States, we're different. We can do it because we can do it. We can do it because we have morality on our side. And that's a view held by tens of millions of people. I'm not saying that view is wrong, but Rand Paul has a very different view. And I think America needs to understand what's the, what's the morality of what just happened? What's the basis for what just happened? Some in Congress say couldn't be done as an act of war because you can't have a war without, without a declaration from Congress. That's in Theory what should happen. The administration has a different argument. Wasn't an act of war, they said it was an act of law enforcement. So Rand Paul asked about that, okay, say it wasn't an act of war to come seize the president of another. Go seize the president, other country. So then Senator Paul asked him, okay, what if it is law enforcement? This is S3, please.
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Senator Rand Paul
But it is. And let's vote on these things. But I think we're in violation of both the spirit and the law of the Constitution by bombing a Capitol, blockading a country and removing elected officials. Officials. And we certainly wouldn't tolerate it, nor would I if someone did it to us.
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Senator Marco Rubio
We didn't remove an elected official. We removed someone who was not elected. And it was actually an indicted drug trafficker in the United States and their system.
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Senator Rand Paul
Our laws. Indicted under our laws. Look, Bolsonaro says that da Silva is not really the president of Brazil. Our president said Biden wasn't really the president. Hillary Clinton said in 2016, Trump wasn't the president.
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Mark Halperin
President.
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Senator Rand Paul
So you have these arguments, and I agree with you, it probably was and most likely was, most assuredly was a bad election. He wasn't really elected. But at the same time, if that's our predicate and you don't have to come to us because it's a drug bust, we're just removing somebody. You can see where it leads to. And it leads to chaos. And that's why we have rules like the Constitution, so we don't get so far out there that presidents can do whatever they want. It is this check and balance. And I would argue for 70 years, we've been going the wrong way. It isn't just this president, but it's a debate that I think is worth having.
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Mark Halperin
A debate worth having. Amen, Rand Paul. A debate worth having. And it's gotta be had. Not just between Democrats who don't like Donald Trump and Marco Rubio, but within the Republican Party. This involves high principles. High principles. And as I do my reporting, as I've done my reporting this week, I have to say, hard to get people to engage on these questions or the questions about Minnesota, because a lot of my sources and a lot of my colleagues, they want to talk about the personalities, the politics of the midterms. I talked to some serious policymakers this week, both in the executive branch and the Congress, and I wanted to ask them serious questions. And. And again, they were. They had the midterms on their mind. They were focused, in the case of Minnesota, on how is this going to affect the president politically, how is it going to affect Democrats? These are interesting and important things, too, but they're not they should not crowd out, to the exclusion of the ability to have serious conversations about these extraordinarily important questions about who America is, what we stand for, what our values are and how that is expressed in our policy and how policy is conducted. These are serious times. I can tell you. I can tell you from talking to folks this week. Democrats are so emotional about Minnesota United States senators and rank and file Democrats and Republicans are indignant about what they see as efforts to block legal law enforcement. Serious emotional times require a fidelity to having conversations about first principles. All right, there you have it. That's my view of where we need to be, where we need to focus more on policy, less on gossip about elites. Love to know what you think. Send me an email, let me know what you think about my point of view there. Rather than yell at the screen, get out your computer or phone, send me an email. Nextup halpern gmail.com nextupalpernmail.com I'll pay attention to what you send. Would love to hear from you. If you're watching this on YouTube and you haven't subscribed yet, I'm asking you right now, go ahead and subscribe. Very good. Time to correct your failure to be a Nextie in full good standing by being a member, a subscriber to the YouTube channel. You'll find full episodes there. You can go back and watch the ones you missed, extra clips and stuff you won't see anywhere else, all on our YouTube channel. Again, it's YouTube.com NextUp Halperin and if you like the podcast format, please follow us there as well. Turn on your downloads. Become a nexter in the audio category again, we want to grow the audience of the show. Make sure you tell your friends if you like this program and I hear from so many of you every week that you do, and I'm grateful to you for it. Even more grateful if you tell your friends that they should join the ranks of Nexters and become part of this community as well. All right, quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk more about some of the principles at stake in Minnesota with Michigan Congresswoman Democrat Debbie Dingell. She's next up. Ask yourself this question. Are you being lied to? They tell you to max out to your 401k and your IRA and then make you beg for permission to use your own money. It's time to get the truth and discover a better way to grow and protect your money bank on yourself is the proven retirement plan alternative banks and Wall street desperately hope you never hear about. It gives you guaranteed growth and retirement income that never goes backward. When markets tumble. Your principal and growth are locked in with tax free retirement income and zero tax rate under current law. Access your money anytime for emergencies or opportunities that come along with no penalties and no restrictions and it keeps growing like you never touched it. Built in inflation protection means your savings grow every year. Good times are bad. Plus you'll always know the minimum guaranteed value of of your retirement savings when you need them. You can get a free report now that reveals how you can bank on yourself and enjoy tax free retirement income, guaranteed growth and control of your own money. Just go to BankOnYourself.com mark and get your free report. That's BankOnYourself.com mark BankOnYourself.com mark this is.
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Mark Halperin
All right, joining me now and next up, Michigan Congresswoman Debbie Dingell who talks to Republicans as a Democrat, talks to Democrats as a Democrat talks to her constituents in Michigan, talks to people around the country. A valuable and experienced person who can grapple with the challenges the country faces. Congressman, welcome. Thank you for being here.
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Mark, it's always good to be with you. I respect your acumen your sensitivity, your listening.
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Mark Halperin
Thank you for that. Take the politics out of it and just talk about as the country is experiencing this. There's no doubt qualitatively and quantitatively, we're all understanding that this story in Minnesota has struck a chord. People are emotional about it, they're connected to it, they're following it closely. What is it? Obviously, the deaths of two Americans, fellow Americans, is part of it, but what is striking people so resonantly about what's gone on and what's still going on in the streets of Minneapolis?
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
So I think it's been a chaotic year. A lot of things have happened that have people not sure of what direction the country is going. A lot of people are worried, by the way, about affordability issues. They're not feeling their lives are better. They know that immigration was an issue. They were worried the president said he was going to get violent people off of the street. And yet I think people are when you see in the video, you know, nowadays there are very clear videos showing you the scenes of an American woman whose last words were, it's okay, I'm that not mad at you, shot dead. And then a VA nurse who was going to do what intensive care nurses do, help somebody that had had pepper spray put in their eyes and in helping somebody was not was shot dead by not one bullet, but multiple bullets. It's got people saying, is that what's happening in America? And I just think they're scared. I think there are a lot of people in this country that are anxious, they're worried and they're scared and they love their country and they want to stand up for the basic rights that, you know, when we were young and we learned in school what's democracy, we have freedom of speech, due process, freedom of press. They're worried that a lot of those freedoms aren't there right now.
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Mark Halperin
I'm going to try to phrase this as carefully as I can because it's a, it's a it's really is a very deeply felt question that I have. It's not it's not meant to be confrontational or gotcha. You I think everything you said about the two people who were killed. Mr. Preddy. Ms. Good. I think everything you said was true. But, but what you didn't say or emphasize, which is important to tens of millions of Americans who don't see this as you do, is that they weren't they weren't engaged in peaceful protests. They both were manifest on the video, interfering with law enforcement. They were they were attempting to be an irritant to people in federal law enforcement, not just express their First Amendment rights. Is that significant? Do you see why others in the country see that as a significant difference between an agitator and an interferer and a peaceful protester?
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
So I think it's in the eyes of the beholder. Let's both be honest with that. I think as people looked at Renee Good, they saw a woman that had been trying to help people and was actually trying to drive away and others. You know, I've heard it. I have heard people say, I've had. You know, one of the groups I go to is the Dexter Forum. It's an old Quaker style kind of meeting every other Saturday where people respect each other and are civil. And this discussion wasn't directed at me. It was people put the issues that they want to have and one person put up that they were very disturbed by what happened in Minneapolis. And then a man responded, you take what you just said to me and multiply it by 100 times that he had lived in a fascist country. We didn't understand what freedom was. That was a weapon in the hands of a woman. She was going to kill somebody. And it triggered another woman who just violently reacted to him. What is real is that people are seeing different things. And I listened to it that day. I've never seen the room so shaken up by the intensity of what was said. But I do think the fact, even Tom Homan, who I'm hoping will de escalate, I don't agree with him on a lot of stuff, said nobody wants to see anybody shot and killed. And I think we have seen people shot and killed in real time. Unfortunately, we're all seen at 25, 30 or 40 times. And that's bothering us. People should not be shot and killed.
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Mark Halperin
Even. Even as you characterize what she did, she did try to drive away, but initially she was using her car to block traffic. Now people say, well, people could go, right?
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
But yeah, but she wasn't trying to kill anybody. It wasn't a weapon. It wasn't. She wasn't a terrorist and she was trying to help somebody. Look, a lot of people are worried about. The president said that he was going to get violent people off the street. And none of us want someone that's violent coming into this country. They do need to be removed. But there are a lot of people. I know them, Mark. I mean, this week in Michigan has not been the week that I was going to spend. There is ICE hysteria in my district. ICE did detain some Women. They're women who came to this country from Honduras. They came on a CBB one. They were seeking asylum. They were escaping violence and potential death. And I want to help fight for them. But the very fact that ICE was in the community, parents heard that they were on school grounds. They were not. There was a rumor last night that ICE had checked into a hotel in my city and people were organizing and going en masse and going to get a marching band and descend upon a hotel where there wasn't anyone at either. We have to all work to de escalate this. And we also need to. Look, I care about these women. I've spent my whole life fighting for victims of domestic violence and sexual violence. And if they go back to their country, they really are facing real threats to their, whether they're going to survive. So people react to those that are here for one reason. And none of us wants these violent criminals on the streets. It's a very complicated issue. And we've needed comprehensive immigration reform for decades, and we still need it.
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Mark Halperin
Yeah. And we've had at least two presidents who were really committed to comprehensive immigration reform, President Bush and President Obama, and couldn't, couldn't pull it off. It seems unlikely that the current majorities of Republicans will do it. We'll see, maybe after the midterms. Two policy issues that I want to ask you about that implicated by what you said. One is should I simply not be in Border Patrol? Should they simply not be in communities at all? In other words, regardless of their behavior, their conduct, regardless of who they try to deport, are you saying ICE and Border Patrol shouldn't be in your district at all or under the right circumstances, that's something you would support?
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Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I think that we need serious guardrails. You're hearing the Democrats in the Senate this week talk about things that we need to ensure that, you know, I mean, one of the things that is supposed to be in effect, that isn't happening, that I heard from my local law enforcement but have heard in Minneapolis as well, is local law enforcement's not to interfere, but they're supposed to be given a heads up that they're going to be in the local jurisdiction. That was not given this week. People did not have facts. I've been trying to de escalate this mark for two days. So local law enforcement needs to be consulted, needs to know what is going on. We've all got a trial to dial it down. I'm not somebody who makes, you know me, I don't make these general statements. And, you know, if there's a violent criminal, someone who's, you know me, if somebody has sexually attacked somebody, I want that person out as fast as it can be. And all law enforcement groups should be working together with the local law enforcement, helping take the lead because they know the community. So. But the way ICE is operating right now, lack of training and the lack of guardrails is worrisome.
- [33:45]
Mark Halperin
So if all. I couldn't agree with you more. These scenes are reflective of not just the lack of a training and lack of coordination, but lack of sensible procedures. There shouldn't be the ability for citizens to interact so directly with these officials. It's not in anybody's interest. So there are probably 20 safeguards you would be for having to do with judicial warrants, body cams, etc. But I'm just saying, as a matter of policy, as a, as a policymaker, if the safeguards and coordination are in place, is there anything wrong with ICE and Border patrol being in your district and in Minneapolis? Is that the right thing?
- [34:23]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I want to say this to you. We have border patrol at our border. Everybody talks about the southern border. I am worried about us right now. I think we got to get a lot of safeguards in place. I'm not saying eliminate ice, but I'm saying we need a lot of safeguards in. We have a border in Michigan. The fact of the matter is, in places, my district's more north of Canada. We are in easy entrance. People don't talk about it. They all talk about the southern border for potential terrorism, other countries coming in. We do need to have customer border patrol. We got to have the safeguards there. And all local levels of government need to be working together. And the Canadian customer border people work with our border patrol. I try to keep very close to. I know the head of our customer and borders patrol here. When there have been issues that need some common sense, I call and say, hey, here's a perspective. They get into it. I get myself out of the middle of it. We need. That's what we need. We need de escalation and we need to keep our borders safe. We need to keep violent people out of this country. And we need to have some compassion and empathy as a country that there are people escaping very violent, difficult situations. And we all come from immigrants. Our grandparents, great grandparents were immigrants too.
- [35:51]
Mark Halperin
Yep. So there's, there's cases in between the two polls you've just laid out, and I want to talk about those because I think this debate needs to be engaged. There's Violent criminals. People who came to the country illegally and in this country have committed violent crimes. I think pretty much everybody, you and the President, amongst others, agree those people should be detained and deported. Right. Then there's the cases you highlighted. People in this country who, back where they came from, before they came here illegally would face potential physical harm if they returned to their country. And although there are some people who think those people should be deported, I think that pretty much a national consensus they shouldn't. But between that, there's all sorts of cases, right? There's literally millions of people who don't fit in either of those two categories. Let me give you a hypothetical. There are people in this category. Someone came, let's say a man in his 40s, no wife, no kids, just a man in his 40s, came here illegally and has been convicted of drunk driving. Is that someone you're comfortable having American policy be, Find that person and deport them.
- [36:57]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I think we gotta talk about it. To be honest, I'm a more empathetic soul than I think we gotta keep our compassion. I'm a Catholic. I hope you listened to Cardinal Tobin this week. But why did he come here? Was he filling a job? You know, we need to. One of the things that's happening. Have you talked to small business owners or to hospitals or to people who need caregivers? There are people that are feeling very needed job openings. So, you know, if he's been. If he's been arrested and came here.
- [37:34]
Mark Halperin
He came here and came here for several. Came here for a job. He just came here to work. He wasn't fleeing persecution and he was.
- [37:42]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Filling a job and somebody wanted him. And the employer will speak up for him. And there were green cards that we have a process that we're supposed to be being used that's backlogged and we're not putting the resources into. So one drunk driving charge. I want to know the circumstances. Three probably needs to be deported.
- [38:00]
Mark Halperin
Okay, what about two shoplifting convictions?
- [38:03]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
That's something that's serious. You cannot come into this country. And I don't know why they're shoplifting though. Again, Mark, life is so complicated. But I don't approve of shoplifty. But is a mother the mother that I'm going to use her because she's on my mind. That got detained this week has a 10 year old, a 6 year old and a 6 month year old. Her husband got had a card was a work visa, but the employer let him go because they're afraid to have in this climate that Any immigrant's toxic. I don't know why. Somebody shoplifting and if it's the only way they can feed their child. We got to think about how we're going to take care of people, that we have obligations as Christians, as the Lord teaches us in the Bible.
- [38:53]
Mark Halperin
Understood. We also have. Also have obligations to the people who are American citizens. Right. So you're. So you're saying basically, I want to know the circumstances.
- [39:02]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
If it's a gang member.
- [39:03]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Right. But let's say ICE again. These are hypotheticals, but they're not crazy. They match. They correlate with the real world. No, I've seen ICE gets a judicial warrant and they go into a house in your district, and there are two guys there, and one of them they were targeting because he's a violent criminal. And they say, we're. We're. We're deporting you and his friend who's, who's his roommate. No violence. Came here not because of persecution. Has worked on and off. Not. Not a 40 year contributor to our economy. Says. It says 23 got here a year ago. And they check and he's here illegally. Came to the country illegally. Are you saying the government should spend time investigating that person's circumstances and make some Solomon, like judgment or can or is he fine with you if they say we're deporting both of you, even though one of you is not a violent criminal?
- [39:53]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
You didn't have a judicial warrant for the second citizen because a judicial warrant, you're going in seeking somebody.
- [39:59]
Mark Halperin
Understood. But. But, but then they, but then they're. They're there.
- [40:02]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I have a judicial warrant. I want judicial warrants. That's one of our guardrails.
- [40:06]
Mark Halperin
All right, let's say the guy's outside in the backyard. In other words. In other words, it sounds like you're saying every case is different. You want to know the circumstances. A lot of Americans would say, we don't need to know his circumstances. He's here illegally. Deport him. And you're saying no in every case, even if there's no indication of asylum seeking or extenuating circumstances?
- [40:29]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Every case is different, Mark. And that's where we all get in trouble.
- [40:31]
Mark Halperin
I understand, but should the government spend the time investigating every case and trying to reach some judgment about whether to deport them? Or are you okay saying whatever the circumstances, this guy is here illegally. Let's just deport him because we gotta get clean?
- [40:45]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
You would tell me that the woman that I'm helping this week, who came in on a CPB visa seeking asylum was here, and then suddenly the government says, those aren't valid anymore. You don't have a bond. Okay, would you just say kick her out? When the person thought they were coming in and going through the process, and we just get rid of the bond, is that. How do you react to that?
- [41:07]
Mark Halperin
I understand. I understand exactly what you're saying. But what I'm saying is for a lot of Americans, the thought of the government becoming private detectives and going through this extraordinarily long process to determine the facts, rather than saying, this person came here illegally and what's your definition of my.
- [41:26]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
That's why I'm. What's your definition of illegal? If someone came across the border and tried to be in the process, was following the process. And that's why I don't. Every single. I've worked enough cases. I can be very hard. I'm like, this person is a member of a gang. He's taken a criminal. He's got to go. But I also know I can't. There are so many people who have been in a process, think they're doing the right thing. Do you know how many immigrants are paying lawyers thousands of dollars? So we're doing nothing to help them. It's. So it's not easy for me to give you a yes or no, because it's. Those aren't yes or no questions. You and I don't know the history. Someone may think they were doing everything right, and they weren't. They've been misled by a lawyer. The system suddenly said a legal process isn't legal. It's just not as simple as you want to make it be. And I know it because I'm working it every day.
- [42:25]
Mark Halperin
Yep. So with the. With the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight, how would you enunciate to a group of high school students? What was wrong with the Biden Harris policy on the border? What was wrong with it?
- [42:37]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
We. We needed to put more money into it. Too many people were coming across the border, and we needed comprehensive immigration reform, which, by the way, we would have had a group of Republican and Democratic senators reached agreement. It would have passed the Congress. Biden would assign it. But President Trump didn't want to lose this issue and told Republicans not to agree to comprehensive immigration reform. We need it.
- [43:03]
Mark Halperin
Let's do some other topics.
- [43:04]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I would like.
- [43:05]
Mark Halperin
I've enjoyed this. Okay, who's your favorite. Who's your favorite Trump cabinet member and why?
- [43:12]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Probably the trade rep, because he's candid with me and I care deeply about trade and I know tariffs are a tool in the toolbox and. But we can't have chaos and we're renegotiating usmca and I want to protect my auto industry.
- [43:31]
Mark Halperin
Do you what do you think of the Trump accounts that allow young people to get $1,000 to start off with? Do you favor those that don't like them?
- [43:42]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I don't know what I think because I haven't seen the details and everybody loves to think they're going to get $1,000. I want our kids to have an opportunity for an education, but I'm not into an idea of, hey, let's give them $1,000 and they'll like me. Let's see the details.
- [43:57]
Mark Halperin
Okay. How are you using AI in your personal life now?
- [44:02]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I'm learning how to use it. I use it when I'm out and about and somebody tells me something and I'm not sure if it's true or somebody asks me a question and I want to get more background on it. I'm careful because AI can give people bad information. I try not to be a doctor, Google, which is very easy for me to do when people ask me questions, but I find it a good use of when I'm out and about to get background on issues, understand issues and help answer people's questions.
- [44:32]
Mark Halperin
All right, last, what are your two main goals for 2026?
- [44:37]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
I would like to de escalate the tension in this country. I am going to protect our democracy and the freedoms that we have. Freedom of speech, freedom of press, you need to care about that. Freedom of religion and due process. Due process. We are a country that guarantees due process. And I'm never going to stop working on health care, and I know I will not in this administration get everybody the ability to go to the doctor when they need to go to the doctor and get the medicine they need. But I'm going to keep working with my Republican friend to lower the cost of prescription drugs. And we got a caregiving crisis in this country, both child care and long term care. And I'm working with my Republican colleagues on that as well.
- [45:20]
Mark Halperin
Congressman Debbie Dingle of Michigan, very grateful to you, making time to talk to us about tough issues in the thoughtful way you discussed pretty much everything. So grateful to you for being here.
- [45:29]
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell
Thank you, Mark.
- [45:31]
Mark Halperin
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- [48:34]
Mark Halperin
All right, next up joining me now, Rich, Larry, been here before. One of our favorites, editor in chief and National Review and a clear thinker in confusing times. Rich, welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Of course, from Leave the Politics, aside from a policy point of view, what's dividing America about what's going on in Minnesota? What are the big substantive fault lines you think there, the top two or three in your mind?
- [49:00]
Rich Lowry
Well, in terms of America, America supports a secure border. America supports getting the worst of the worst out, as the Trump administration calls them. And then maybe if you ask them in a poll question, do you want to deport all illegal immigrants? They'll say, yeah, but then if they actually see what that entails, at least in this form, they don't like it. They don't like the guys being picked up at Home Depot. They don't like the people being picked up at courts or at schools, all that. So I think in terms of public opinion, that's the big division, the big division between the Trump administration and officials in Minnesota and Minneapolis basically is whether federal immigration law should should be enforced, certainly at anything like the level that the Trump administration seeks.
- [49:43]
Mark Halperin
This question we talked earlier in the program with Congressman Dingell, woman Dingell, about this, this question of not the worst of the worst and not people here who are here fleeing persecution or other other protected categories, this question of deporting other people, the seamstress who's been here for 40 years and contributed to society, or the young person who came here with their parents who feel safe and secure in their school. Within the Republican Party, in the conservative movement, how divided are people about that big middle category, nonviolent criminals, not the so called worst of the worst. And whether they should not be deported either, because I think there's three broad categories. Either they're essential to the economy. Second, America is a welcoming nation and if even if they came here illegally, they're contributing. And third would be it's just too big a job. We just simply can't deport that. How big is that divide and what are the what's the terrain on that?
- [50:42]
Rich Lowry
There is a division about that. Now, the people who have are in favor of deporting everyone have gained a lot of traction over the last couple of years, certainly over the Biden years when the open border was. Was radicalizing to a lot of us. I basically think, in theory, everyone should go. It's just as a practical matter, that third, third concern that you noted. Do you have the resources to do it? And two, do you have the political support to do it? The answer to both of those is no. So I would focus on people who have committed some crime. Not all of them are violent crimes. A lot of them are DUIs or domestic violence, and people with final orders of removal. Those are people that have gone through every aspect of the process, and a judge just said, nope, nope, nope, go home, and they're still here. Maybe. I think there are more than a million of those. Those are the ones you'd want to focus on. And I think, Mark, the real difficulty here is if they want to squeeze more people out, they really have to do E verify. They have to do employer worksite enforcement. And Trump has shown no appetite for that whatsoever. He doesn't even talk about it. He hasn't talked about it in. For 10 years when he's been the foremost and sometimes the most bumptious immigration hawk in the country. But if you did that, you don't have to knock on anyone's door, right? You're doing this through bureaucracy and through cracking down on employers, which I think would be much more politically palatable, but the business community wouldn't like it.
- [52:07]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, of course. Homan and other members of the administration have said the crackdown on business is coming. The president, every time he does talk about. He has mentioned it. You're right. He hasn't prioritized it. But when he's mentioned that, he hears from his friends who are in ag and hospitality, and they say, you will destroy American business. Let's say you were cloned. A lot of my hypotheticals involve cloning because I'm kind of obsessed. Let's see, you were cloned and you were. Solomon, you were the decider about deportation. And you, and you're, you're, you're, you're in a ride along and you go to a Home Depot parking lot, and the ICE and Border Patrol folks, they bring 20 people into the van and. And then Solomon, Rich Lowry's there and say, well, we, we asked these people for their papers. None of them are citizens. They all came to this country legally. They know we've run the background checks. No indication any of them have committed violent crimes or have criminal records at all. But they're here now. And they. They're subject to legal deportation. Would you say as. As king of the world, deport them all, they're here illegally, we got them the price? Or would you say, well, let's talk, let's talk it through, let's. Let's find out. Do they pay. Have they paid their members of their community in good standing? Have they contributed to the economy? Do they have jobs? Where would your inclination be?
- [53:33]
Rich Lowry
They got to go. And the black letter of the law is you're an illegal immigrant here. You shall be detained until your proceedings reach an end. And if they reach an end saying, you got to go, you got to go. So if I pick them up, they're going. And also, I'm not as soft on the Home Depot people as some other people are. Having a real public facing defiance of a law where everyone knows they're here illegally. I'm picking them up to do Sheetrock work in my home. I might find that useful, but I'm illegally employing them. I think that's terrible, and I think that should stop. Where you're gonna get me to sound a little softer is, I think, in general, one of the scenarios you're outlining just a moment ago, if you can diminish the illegal population pretty substantially and they're making strides to do that, and you can make sure the border is sealed an enduring way, then you can think about, can we have some form of amnesty for the people who've been here a very long time, have been law abiding, who are embedded in their community? National Review has always been open to that. But our two conditions are make sure. Because the problem with doing that is you could have a magnet to more people coming in. So you want to make sure the border is totally sealed and you want to get the population down. You know, I'd be open to talking about that two or three years from now. I think we need more of some version of what Trump's doing.
- [54:52]
Mark Halperin
Right. So it seems to me. And again, Congresswoman Dingell felt just the opposite. Her default would be, it's complicated. Maybe they should be allowed to stay. Every case is different. It seems to me there's three reasons to follow the Solomon Lowry principle, which is to port them. One is as a deterrent, to make it clear if you come here, even if you don't commit a crime, if we get you, you're going to be deported. Two, is there a drain, potential drain, in our economy? Now, some advocates would say, well, they're contributing, but in some ways they're drained. In our economy and they're not citizens. And three, just the sort of moral principle that if we're going to be a nation of laws and a nation with a border, if you, if you're in possession of someone who came here illegally, they should be deported. Are all those reasons part of, part of how you feel about this?
- [55:37]
Rich Lowry
Yeah, all three of those. Absolutely. And I just think we've tolerated this for way too long, and even we tolerated it for way too long and then doubled or tripled down on it under Biden when there was a de facto open border, at least for a certain category of people who had asylum claims, most of which were bogus. So again, I think the point of employment is really the key place where you can squeeze, because most people, they're not coming here to deal drugs. Some are, they're not coming here to be gang bangers. Some are, they're not coming here because they're being persecuted overseas. Some are, most, the vast majority are coming here to work. So if you can turn off the jobs magnet, that would be a major disincentive for people to come in the future and would be an incentive for people here who are kind of loosely connected to the community or maybe recent arrivals to go home on their own.
- [56:29]
Mark Halperin
All right, couldn't agree more with all that. Let's talk about this concept of the Democrats now. As we're talking this morning, they have a list of things that they'd like to see policy changes that they're demanding be done. Some of them, I think the chances that they'll actually be accepted by Congressional Republicans in the White House are pretty small. But others, I think would be in the political and policy interest of the White House and of the country. So this issue of warrants, the vice president and others have said you don't need a judicial warrant to go into a home, you just need an administrative warrant. To me, that's antithetical to American liberty. And they should have to have a judicial warrant. That's one of the things the Democrats are asking for. Do you agree the Democrats in this case are right, that for the questions of liberty and Fourth Amendment rights, that they shouldn't just be to declare themselves at ICE or Border Patrol, but that they should have to have a judge give them a warrant?
- [57:26]
Rich Lowry
So I think there are two things. One, the question whether we can continue in the practice that has been the practice for a very long time, they just need an administrative warrant to arrest illegal alien or go pick someone up has a final order of removal. For me, that's absolutely it would be crazy to go to judicial warrants on that for all sorts of reasons. One being an enormous burden on the federal judiciary. Now the question I'm not planted my feet on whether they're correct that you can go into a home just on an administrative warrant. I just don't know the technical details of that. So my colleagues are on one side, some are on the others. But I think the big ask we've heard from some Democrats, I think like Chris Murphy, everything's got a judicial warrant is a non starter. I would also think unmasking ICE agents, it's a bad look. I admit they've made a lot of political hay out of it. You can't do it when they're potentially going to be doxed and their families are going to be held at risk. The thing among the list of Democratic demands that makes the most sense to me is body cameras for, for ICE age. Yeah, right. Most cases it's going to help their, their cause. In cases where it doesn't, we should want to know.
- [58:32]
Mark Halperin
All right, but let's talk about masks. And believe me, I'm, I'm so sympathetic to the doxing thing 100%. Just imagine these men and women trying to do their jobs and their families and, and their kids, their spouses can be caught up in it. On the other hand, like that applies to everybody. Anybody can be docs these days. So these, these people in ice, these people in border patrol, like should members of Congress wear masks? You know, like should every police officer wear a mask? Should every protester be allowed to wear a mask? In other words, I understand it's different for government officials, so I shouldn't bring in the protesters. I understand the doxing and I'm so sympathetic to it, but it is more than just a bad look. It's about accountability. So, so maybe at a minimum, if they want to wear a mask, they should have to have some sort of QR code or number identifying number because then there's no accountability if they can, if they can be anonymous in conducting these actions. It just, it just doesn't seem right. So do you agree that if they're going to wear masks, there has to be some way that they are held accountable through identification or. That's not important.
- [59:44]
Rich Lowry
Yeah, I thought about that in detail. It's an interesting idea. I was thinking the same thing just as you were discussing it there at some sort of identifying number. I just think what makes the ICE agents different is they've been subject to a comprehensive, very aggressive campaign to dox and Resist them in the way we don't see ordinarily with the police force. So I think that justifies it. But look, Democrats have made huge amount of hay out of this. Right. Every statement they say about Ice Age is masked agents, because that inherently seems threatening to us. Right. When we played cops and robbers as kids, the bad guys, the robbers always had the mass.
- [60:23]
Mark Halperin
But it's not just menacing, it's also a lack of accountability. So if you were walking down the street in Washington or New York and a cop came over to you and said, basically, I don't like the looks of you, I'm going to arrest you. You, you'd want to know, who is this? What's your name? What's your badge number? Right. You'd want to be able to say to your lawyer, here's the cop who harassed me. Or if the cop said, I want, I want, I want 50 bucks from you, they should have to tell you who they are. And I've, I've had some interactions with law enforcement. Not many, not serious. Don't worry, folks. My liberty is safe. But. But I've had that situation where I've said to them, who are you? I want your badge number. And they've declined. They said, I don't need to tell you. I just don't think that's right. If you care about liberty, the power of the state, someone from law enforcement, whether it's state, federal, local, they should have to tell you who they are. You know, I, Sometimes I'll. If I don't like my customer service representative, I'll ask for their name. And they won't tell me they're not in government.
- [61:22]
Rich Lowry
Escalated. Escalated. Right. When you're, when you get to the point of asking for their names. Yeah, I take your point on accountability. I would just, I would, I would be inclined to search for a way to do it that doesn't involve unmasking them and having their names out there in the way, that's potentially dangerous. Dangerous to them and their families.
- [61:38]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. So Mr. Homan is trying to do something that's, that's very unusual in America today in our, in our polarized system. He's trying to maintain the confidence of MAGA and reach out to not just the Democratic elected officials in Minnesota, but the wider public. He clearly aspires, based on his press conference on Thursday morning, to be what the President seems to have sent him to Minnesota to do. Be a bridge. Would you say that he's more in danger of failing in the mission to reach out and de escalate with Democrats or more in danger of losing the support and confidence of maga.
- [62:15]
Rich Lowry
I think it's the former, so long as he has Trump's support. And Mark, we've seen this, we've seen this before. Right. Doesn't happen all the time. But where you have Trump's official officials, his aides, his supporters going out there making maximalist claims in order to do what they think the president wants and where the president's going to be. And the president in the meantime has the political antenna up and he's like, nope, not going there on this one and sort of cutting out the knees off of everyone, which happened to Noem and to Bovino. So I think the problem he'll have is I think Tim Waltz is motivated to get ice, really to stand down, so he may play ball. But the political blood is in the water here. And I think if you're Minnesota officials and this applies to Democrats generally, this is going to play out the DHS funding fight. They think they have the whip hand. Right. How much do you need to give? Right. When it seems that the president realizes what was happening to this point was hurting his own cause. So is he really going to go back to doing that? If, if they say, you know what, we'll give you the state, state jails. We were already doing that. But we can't, we can't tell our counties what to do or it's all written in law, so they can't change it. What, are you going to really double down and go harder if you're Trump? I think they have over a bit of, bit of a political barrel.
- [63:32]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Certainly every as this has played out in the last day, they certainly are acting like they know they need to make accommodations that they would not normally make on any issue, let alone on immigration. I want to switch gears as we finish and talk about the economy. It's a real puzzle and I'm no, I'm no political genius to say it will be the dominant issue in this country substantively for the midterms. As people think about the Trump record, it's strange because the economic data is more mixed than I've ever seen. And you can talk to smart people who say, including Scott Besant, that we're headed towards great economic times and people who don't think that clearly we still have a, a problem with the rich getting richer and other people left behind. And AI seems to only be exacerbating that now. And consumers are confusing because they tell in surveys, they say they're not confident about the economy, and yet they're spending like they are. So where are you on again? Leave the politics aside. Is America going to be booming economically in 2026 or, or not?
- [64:35]
Rich Lowry
No idea. I have no idea. However, if you're not economic expert, I'm even less than economic than you are, Mark. But, you know, I think in general, you just have to go with the sentiment and what people are feeling. I think a big problem Trump has is the inflation rate has been down. But the problem is all the increased prices are baked in the cake, right? The inflation rate goes down doesn't mean prices go down. It just means the prices are going up at a slower rate. So that 9% inflation rate or whatever it was under Biden is still baked in the cake of your price for beef and everything else. So people are still feeling the elevated prices. Now wages are going up. And over time, if wages keep going up and can go up at a higher rate than the rate of prices, people will feel better. But is that going to happen this year? Is that going to happen such that they feel it before November and it changes the way they're inclined to vote? Of that I'm really skeptical. So I would say even if we get a boom, I'm not sure the boom is going to happen in time or be felt, felt by people in time.
- [65:34]
Mark Halperin
What was Ronald Reagan's theory of the case about how to create economic growth supply side?
- [65:40]
Rich Lowry
So you incentivize the creation of more stuff, and if you get more supply, prices will go down because you have more stuff.
- [65:50]
Mark Halperin
And what was Bill Clinton's theory of the case about how to make the economy grow?
- [65:54]
Rich Lowry
Bill Clinton was incentivized with spending and you also cut the deficit. He did that under pressure to make sure interest rates aren't, aren't going up.
- [66:05]
Mark Halperin
And what is Donald Trump's theory of the case about how the economy grows?
- [66:08]
Rich Lowry
It's a little bit of the Reagan. It's a little bit of tariffs that incentivizes production here at home. And it's also a little bit like a governor, an activist governor writ large. All these governors are competing for investment in their states. That's how Trump conceives of the United States of America. So he loves all these big, big announcements. Now, some of those announcements are meaningful, but the problem is some of them are exaggerated because everyone now knows he loves big numbers, right? It doesn't matter how real the number is, as long as it's big. But these are investments that, you know, if they happen, are going to spool. Spool out, over, spool out over the case over the course of years. Right. So they're not happening before November such that people are going to feel it.
- [66:53]
Mark Halperin
Right. And that, that, that's my theory about his theory of the case, which is the last two things you said. Tariffs and, and bringing investment to the United States, American investors and foreign investors, people, not only they're not feeling it, but there's no linear connection in their lives between those two things that get so much attention and prospects of economic success. You know, find me the American who said, oh yeah, the tariffs are making me better, my family better off. Might happen eventually.
- [67:25]
Rich Lowry
Yeah.
- [67:26]
Mark Halperin
But I just, I just, I just, I've never seen a president put so much emphasis on two things that just, there's just no indication that people are going to understand how that connects to their lives.
- [67:36]
Rich Lowry
Yeah, it's a big bet and it's a very long term bet. Right?
- [67:39]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [67:40]
Rich Lowry
Now Reagan's policy was, was a medium termish bet. Right. But you knew it was going to take, he thought it would take hold before he was up for reelection and sure enough it did. But the Trump play is more like a five or ten year thing.
- [67:55]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. All right. We're going to end with the rapid round and fighting my premise that we should be serious and substantive. I'm going to ask you some serious questions, but short answers. Who's the Fed new Fed chair going to be?
- [68:06]
Rich Lowry
I don't know.
- [68:07]
Mark Halperin
Don't know. Okay. Don't know will be acceptable on these. Are you more bullish on peace with Iran or more bullish on war with Iran? War in terms of what's going to happen, think.
- [68:17]
Rich Lowry
I think he's gonna, he's gonna probably hit him in some form or another. But look, classic Trump, right? It's a threat. He could be bluffing. But do you really want to take that, that risk? And maybe the Iranians are going to take that risk and I think he'll end up hitting him in some form or another.
- [68:33]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. Are you thinking that J.D. vance will be the nominee of the party easily or that he's gonna have a fight on his hands Easily? Easily. I'm gonna pause on that one because a lot of people in our lives are now, I've said easily all along, but a lot of people in our lives are now saying in politics and journalism are saying, no, it's going to be tough. Cruz is going to run and Hawley are going to run and that he's created problems with himself over Israel and other things. So are you open to that argument? Or are you still pretty confident? Easily.
- [69:03]
Rich Lowry
I'm open to it. Maybe I shouldn't say easily. There could be a fight. I just think the odds are very heavy that he gets a nomination. Look, what does J.D. vance owe his career to? An ability to get Trump's nod. Right. He got it in the Senate primary in Ohio. He got it for Veep. He knows this is, this is what he needs. He's on the inside. He knows more about how to get it than we do. He's a very smart and deaf guy. So I assume he'll get it. And unless there's a catastrophe for Trump such that his standing in the Republican Party collapses, that that endorsement is going to be really meaningful.
- [69:34]
Mark Halperin
Running a magazine of ideas and an opinion for profit is a challenging thing to do. What is the, what is the great big aspiration of 2026 for you and for National Review in terms of something you want to accomplish?
- [69:50]
Rich Lowry
Well, we need, we need to be more like Mark Halperin and, and be across all forms of media all the time. So, so we're working on it.
- [69:58]
Mark Halperin
Got it. And if people want to read your stuff, where can they go?
- [70:01]
Rich Lowry
Nationalreview.com and if they want to look at it, they can go to our national reviews YouTube channel.
- [70:07]
Mark Halperin
All right, Rich Lowry, always really love having you on. So curious about what you think about everything. And we covered a bunch of it. Grateful to you. Thank you, Rich.
- [70:15]
Rich Lowry
Thanks, Mark.
- [70:16]
Mark Halperin
All right, that's it for today's program. Thanks to Debbie Dingle and to Rich Larry for being here. Enjoyed both conversations. I hope you did, too. We'll be back on Tuesday, another episode and we'll have lots to talk about because I'm expecting a lot of news between now and Tuesday. Some of it just Spidey sense, but some of it the stuff that's in play with Iran, with Russia and Ukraine and here at home, of course, over everything related to Minnesota, including what's going on in Congress. I hope you all have a great weekend. As always, we want to grow the audience here. More Nexters is more better for us. So don't forget to subscribe if you haven't done that on the YouTube channel or as a and or really as a podcast. Always want you to be able to watch and listen to the full show, all the clips and special content that we have so you always know what's coming. Next up.
- [71:06]
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