← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
How the GOP Plans to Stop a Blue Wave, and the Inside Story of Hollywood's Biggest Legal Drama, with Maureen Callahan
01:03:53
Mark Halperin opens a new episode with a reported monologue on the shifting midterm landscape, explaining why Republicans are increasingly worried about a potential Blue Wave. He walks through new polling, historical patterns, and insider conversations that suggest what felt possible to sophisticated Republican strategists just weeks ago — keeping the House majority — for now has gone out of reach. And the clock could end working against the GOP, unless they make some significant changes, coupled with some luck, soon. Then Maureen Callahan joins the show for a wide-ranging conversation on culture, celebrity, and power. Maureen and Mark break down why awards season is now driven by Oscar campaigning rather than performances, unpack the legal war surrounding “It Ends With Us” and the Hollywood players caught in it, and examine how fame and entitlement can distort family dynamics at the highest levels. The discussion also covers what is actually worth watching and listening to right n...
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Hi, I'm Gabby Windy with Long Winded. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your attention in any way possible. So listen to my podcast, won't ya? It has great insights, exceptional humor, and plenty of pop culture to fill your dark souls. And some even say it's a great way to fall asleep due to my soothing voice. And I don't take that personally. Fall asleep. A listen is a listen even when you're sleeping. And a view is a view, even with your eyes closed, if you dare. And it doesn't take much gumption. Enjoy. Listen to Long Winded wherever you get your podcasts.
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Everybody welcome. I'm three things today. I am the host of this program. Next up, Mark Hellpern. I'm the editor in chief of the live interactive video platform two Way. And I'm fired up about the reported monologue and our guest. Tell you about our guests in just a minute. I'm fired up at the monologue because everybody's talking about the midterm elections, what's going to happen in the midterms, what's happening now that could influence that. And I think I've solved it for you and for me. A lot of talk to Democratic and Republican strategists this week, and I think I got it figured out at least as much as anybody can. So excited to share that with you. Later in the program, we're going to be joined by my MK Media colleague, Maureen Callahan. She's kind of a genius about everything. You know, her work at the Daily Mail and here on this network on her show, the Nerve, we're going to break down the awards season, talk Oscars, talk Justin Baldoni, Blake Lively, and so much more. Looking forward to visiting with Maureen. But first, we'll start with some political my reported monologue on why Republicans are now sweating the midterms. This has been a kind of an evolution leading up to the big election that they had in Texas over the weekend where A Democrat won a state legislative contest in a very Republican district, a district that President Trump had done well up until that point. The conventional wisdom was that Republicans were probably going to lose the House, but maybe had a chance to keep the majority. They've got a narrow majority now and that they'd probably keep the Senate. So control would switch in January to Democrats controlling the House, Republicans controlling the Senate. That was the conventional wisdom before. Okay. And then this election happened and people started, even before that election, because the president's poll numbers, because of some other factors we'll talk about, people started to say, no, any chance Republicans had to keep the House is gone. And in fact, they could lose the House badly, that it could be a so called blue wave, even though there's some factors that suggest that's less likely than usual. And they said, maybe the Senate's in play. And then this election happened in Texas. And normally a special election in a weekend in a state legislative race with bad weather, people would write it off, but almost no one, not no one, but almost no one's writing it off. So what I'm going to walk you through is my reporting on the state of play now where Republicans say, if this is the, if these are the conditions, how the voters are feeling, how President Trump is playing in the election, the historical trends, which say a president in the midterms is going to do poorly. If all that is the status quo and it pervades all the way through November, Republicans are going to have a very bad election day. That's the become the conventional wisdom. And before it was possible to find some folks, and I agreed with this, that say the Trump folks, there's reason to think they could defy history and keep control of the House. And what is now the case is that no one I've talked to who I take seriously believes Republicans currently are able to keep control of the House. And that would have huge implications for our politics, for government. If President Trump does not control the House, that means the gavel goes to Hakeem Jeffries. And you'd see a much different atmosphere in the House. You go from the president trying to legislate to fighting off investigations, for one thing. Now, history is the biggest thing here. When we talk about how President Trump and his party are going to do in the midterms, because presidents in their midterms, first term, second term, they don't do well historically. Okay, let's take a look at the history of how the House has gone. And we're really focused on the House, the Senate's a different piece. Let's look at this. Put up the graphic, please, to show how have Democrat, how have presidents done in their midterms? Okay. And we're just going back to Reagan. That's kind of the modern era when everything's kind of had some similarity. So Reagan's, these are the two term presidents. So they had two midterm elections two years in and four years in. Now, Trump's is a little different, right. Because he's not consecutive. And so people are saying, is this really like a second midterm? So here's, here's the, here's what we see. For those of you listening on the podcast, I'll spell it out for you. Reagan lost 26 House seats in his first midterm. Five in his second. Clinton lost 52 House seats in his midterm. And then the Republicans overplayed their hand with impeachment. Clinton's party actually gained five seats in his second midterm. Bush gained eight in his first midterm. 911 was a big factor there. And then lost 30 in his second midterm with the bad economy, people upset about the Iraq War. So all three of them got wiped out in their midterms, as did Barack Obama, as did Donald Trump. Right. Sometimes it's been the first midterm, sometimes it's been the second. But Reagan wiped out in his first midterm. Clinton wiped out in his first midterm. Bush wiped out in his second midterm. Obama wiped out in his first midterm, lost 63 House seats in his first midterm and then 13 more in his second. Okay, and then lastly, Trump in his first midterm, the only one he's had before, he lost 40. So Clinton and Bush, with very special circumstances, defied losing seats in the midterms. But the rest of the time, wipeouts. Reagan did better in his second midterm because the economy had come back, but wiped out in his first. Okay, so that's the history. And so people are assuming that unless something extraordinary happens, President Trump is going to be wiped out in this midterm as well. Polls are bad for him. Every public and private poll I see, the polls are bad. People don't approve of the job he's doing. There was one poll that came out that showed voters, by a slight majority, a slight edge, thought that the Biden economy was better than the Trump economy. That's got to kill President Trump. Voters are still in a sour mood about the economy, even though there's economic data that suggests things are better. What's happened in Minnesota with ICE and border protection also has not been good for the Republican brand. Republicans will tell you that. And then we had this Texas election, okay. As I said, even before the special election that the Democrat won in a Trump district, we had people I respect saying blue wave, not narrow Republican loss in the midterms, but a blue wave. Here's Alex Castellanos, one of the Republicans I look to, longtime strategist. Here's Alex in a conversation on two way from before, right before this midterm, this special election in Texas. Here's what Alex said about the prospect of a blue wave. This is S10, please. I do think the midterms are going to be a disaster between 24 and almost 40 seats. But because Trump is on the ballot, not because you think Republicans could lose 40 House seats. I think if we, I agree with Sosnik that if, If Democrats run 10 points ahead, we lose 20 low 20s. But if it's more than that, we could lose a lot. Yeah. So what Alex was willing to say publicly, a lot of Republican strategists this week said to me privately and again, some of them started saying it even before this election in Texas that it's gotten so much attention. Basically the line is the House is lost and we're going to Republicans are going to lose some number of seats, a significant number around 20. But some are saying, as Alex did, that it could be higher. That if there is, if the sour mood, the throw the bums out attitude which so often fuels the incumbent presidential party doing poorly in midterms, if that continues the way it is right now, that it could be 40 seats, 40 is basically the ceiling. 40 house seats would be a wipeout. So not only would it shift the majority control, but it would have huge implications for the narrative of how the president is doing. Okay, so that was before this election in Texas and since then. Now people are concerned again, if you're a cautious Democrat or a optimistic Republican, you say, sure, snapshot today. If the midterms were today, it would be a wipeout and seats in districts that President Trump won easily could be in play. And then this Texas election happened. The guy who won there was, is a union member, blue collar type guy, name is Taylor Remitt and he won in a district around Fort Worth that in Fort Worth area that, that no one expected him to win. Republicans spent a lot of money. The president went on true social to support the Republican candidate. And this guy Taylor Remit still won. Here he is talking about why he thinks he won in his Morning Joe victory lap. This is S5, please.
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To me, it was simple.
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We had to focus on solutions, not partisan politics. Bringing communities together. That's what it's all about in Texas. We look out for our neighbors.
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C
And that's exactly what we did to this campaign. Now, we had the elections last November where Democrats did very well all over the country. And there's two kinds of Republicans I talked to. And here talking in public, there's the ones who say, okay, wake up call, wake up call, wake up call. Time to wake up. We need a different plan to make things better before November. And then there's ones who either profess to be not concerned or seem to be in denial. One of those would be President Trump, who said nothing to see here about the Texas race, even though he had been on True Social supporting the Republican. When he was asked about it this week, he said, ah, I don't even, I don't know much about that race. Not something I was involved in. Local race. Here is another person who seems at least partially in denial or at least pretending to be unconcerned. This is former Utah Congressman Jason Chaffetz on Fox and friends. His S8. Please. Look, the Democrat won. He spent like $70,000. And the other two Republicans spent like $2.7 million. But Republicans still need to show up. But when you have 25,000 less people show up, guess what happens? Democrats squeeze through. So I think the answer in November will be quite different because they have to have another race come November. But, but still, to suggest it has to do with immigration is just garbage analysis. Okay, so you write. All right, so he's downplaying it. And again, you hear that from some. But in my private conversations with Republican strategists, independent analysts and Democrats, people say again, Republicans are on track currently to be wiped out in the midterms, maybe even lose the Senate. We'll talk about that in a bit. But focusing on the House now, so here's Henry Olson, conservative, very smart guy, very smart election analyst. Here's what he wrote in his Washington Post column. He said, talking about this Texas rate, the outcome nonetheless is yet more proof that the GOP faces a 2018 style midterm shellacking if things don't improve. The Texas special election result on Saturday should set off alarms in the White House. The fact that it probably won't means the 2026 blue wave will likely continue to gather strength and in the weeks or months ahead. So Olson sees what I see, at least on the surface you don't see a White House saying, this is a warning. We need to do stuff. We'll talk about what they may be doing behind the scenes, but publicly, they're not talking that way now. Independent analysts often overreact to special election results. We've seen it before, but in this case, again, there's a pretty big consensus. This represents a real problem as a, as a canary in the coal mine, whatever you want to call it, for where the Republicans stand. Here's my friend Harry Entin, honest, honest guy on cnn, talking about what happened in that Texas race. This is S2 is what happened in Texas night. It didn't just swing to the left, it took a rocket ship to the left. My goodness gracious. The Texas 9 Senate District election marches. This was a district that Donald Trump won by 17 points in 2024. The Democratic candidate in the special election on Senate Saturday, hello. Won it by 14 points. That's an over 30 point shift to the left. Any Republican, unlike Ron DeSantis, who doesn't take this seriously, they should realize that this is very perilous. So Ron DeSantis, governor of Florida, as Harry referenced, went on Twitter and he said, yeah, it's a special election. You know, don't overread it. But he said, we really need to take this seriously. The party cannot rest on its laurels. We need to look closely at how this happened. It's about suburban voters, Hispanic voters, younger voters, all these groups which Donald Trump had done very well in just, you know, in 2024, drifting now pretty substantially away. And the implications of that in Texas are huge. Where Texas redistricted the congressional seats to try to gain five seats. If they perform as poorly with Hispanics in Texas as they did in this special election, they're not going to win those five seats. So there's a lot of concern and partly what you're seeing now is confidence and momentum on the left. They got it in the last November. And in politics, it's like sports. Confidence matters a lot. You help me raise more money. Candidate recruitment, where that's still germane and just a general feeling of momentum, of low dollar fundraising, of all the things that make the party feel good. Here's a typical reaction to the Texas race. Not from a Republican, not from an independent analyst like Harry Potter. But here's Julie Roginski. She's a Democrat liberal. Here's how she giddily is reacting to what happened in Texas. And this is very representative of what you're hearing on the left now. This is, this is Julia Roginski, what you're going to see is the redistricting that Texas Republicans undertook to make those districts somewhat more Latino because they had to jam those in to make it more Republican. This is going to backfire on them. And if I were Greg Abbott and I were the Republicans in Texas today, I would be seriously thinking about, oh, my God, what did we just do? Because we potentially created a lot more Democratic districts than we anticipated doing. So there's no doubt that Republicans have a demographic problem right now. They've got a polling problem with the president. And while the Senate looks a little more secure, even, even, even the Senate could be in play. But just the House being in play, and, and not just in play, but in the view of a lot of people gone for the majority control and maybe a big blue wave, that is significant. That is a change from just a few weeks ago. And it was already building in the minds of analysts looking at the data and the election results before the Texas special election. Now it is full force. Now it is not what's going to happen. It's going to be Democratic majority in the House, maybe by a lot. Okay, now here's what's happening behind the scenes, though. And this is where you got to do a lot of reporting to figure out what could turn things around, because James Blair, the political director in the White House, deputy chief of staff, the president himself, vice president, all the people who want to keep the majority, they're not just going to sit around and say, oh, woe is us. We've lost the majority. We're going to get wiped out. What they're doing is they're going to the Lloyd Christmas philosophy. All right, who's Lloyd Christmas? You guys? Lloyd Christmas is the character in Dumb and Dumber who had one of the most iconic lines in movie history and a very important line for political hope. So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah, telling me there's a chance. That's the line. That's the money line from, from the sensibility currently of Republicans who say, how can, how can the president possibly keep the majority? Well, things have to change. And it starts with the economy. As I said before, the economy is doing better than a lot of voters think. But the question is, will they feel it in time? Will there be a boom in the second and third quarters that voters will feel? SCOTT Bessant, Treasury Secretary, says there will be. The president says there will be. When we've seen presidents have good economies, like Reagan did in his second term, like Clinton did, that Helps, but it's not enough. We've seen presidents with good economies still get shellacked in the midterms. So that's going to have to happen, but it's not enough. So what else they need? First of all, they have a huge money advantage, not in every Senate race, but in raising money. The President's super PAC has an extraordinary amount of money. Elon Musk is now back on Team R and he's spending, he's donated a lot of money. People expect him to donate more. Crypto and AI industries are very pro Trump administration. They're talking about tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions. And so that money advantage is big. In a presidential race, money doesn't matter as much. But down ballot House and Senate races, money matters a lot. We'll see how it shakes out. Democrats are going to raise money too. But Republicans for a comeback are counting on a good economy and raising a lot of money and spending, outspending their opponents. Manipulation of the primaries. We saw Democrats do this and the press largely ignored it. But there's a lot of contests where, if the Democrats can, Republicans can interfere in the primary, running ads on behalf of the most liberal candidates, the most progressive, the most squad like candidates. Those candidates may not be able to win the general election. So as these primaries come up, watch closely to see is James Blair, the rnc, outside shadowy groups. Are they going to spend money in meddling in the Democratic primaries to manipulate them to get vulnerable Democrats in seats that Republicans would otherwise lose? Watch for that. Then, of course, you never know. There's world events, terrorist attack, nobody wishes for that, but that's a reality. Stuff can happen in the real world that could shift the public mood, particularly on immigration. Right. The flow of the stories out of Minnesota have clearly hurt Republicans electorally. But maybe that changes. Okay, one event that's planned, not something that would be a surprise, that could definitely help Republicans, is this convention that they're planning. You know, they're talking about having like a national convention, big TV show, even though it's not a presidential year. Now, the Democrats might have one too, and the Republican one may not be a success. I'm not predicting any of these things, let me make it clear. But these things could happen and they could have an impact. If that convention scheduled for the summer or fall, if that, if that allows Republicans to drive a message in a way to create momentum, show discipline, reset the narrative, that could be a big factor, then you've got the power of incumbency. And every incumbent president does this. And we've seen some of it, but there's going to be more members of the cabinet traveling and doling out federal largesse to congressional districts and states where there are racist federal spending, targeting those benefits to places to say to voters, hey, we gave you this stuff. Using government to shape politics. Again, everybody does it. The president, though, is particularly when it comes to stuff like this, particularly shameless. Maybe not the most shameless, but you'll see some of that. And then lastly, is turning out the president's coalition targeting all sorts of messaging, maybe some of this federal largesse to working class voters trying to have a plan to win back Hispanic voters. The Republicans, the president, James Blair, they're not dopes. They can see that they're not doing as well with Hispanic voters as they need to do to work. Win in Texas, win in other places. So you'll see efforts to figure out how do we get younger voters back? Maybe the president starts going on podcasts again to target younger people. How do we get Hispanic voters back? How do we get suburban voters back? All of that can revolve around the economy for sure. But some of the same cultural issues that helped the Democrats, Republicans in the 24 election, trans issues, immigration issues that play well for Republicans. Some of these other cultural things, you'll see that stepped up. Okay, so let's, let's just do a reality check here. It's going to be true for the foreseeable future in terms of anybody giving you a real prediction. Republicans are likely to lose the House by a little or a lot. Republicans, unless there's a real worst case scenario, are likely to narrowly keep the Senate. Okay, that's, that's where we are. That's the dominant forecast. What's changed in the last two weeks? We. With the punctuation mark coming from this Texas Senate race, according to my sources in both parties, is now it's not just Republicans are gonna keep it by a little or keep it by, or lose it by a little. Now it's Republicans are definitely gonna lose the House on the status quo. They could lose it by a medium size or they could lose it by a lot. And losing it by a lot would have implications. Okay. All these things, though, that I told you could be part of a Republican comeback before the midterms. They're not fantasies, they're not long shot things. I'm not predicting a Martian invasion here. They're contingency possibilities. The economy has to be better. And then some other things. And then like what happened with Bill Clinton. Maybe Democrats make mistakes. Maybe they start talking about abolishing law enforcement again. Right. And Trump's the master of trying to force Democrats into errors. Okay, so the question going forward is does enough break the president's way, some by luck, some by design, to have a chance to change the terrain? Because on the current trajectory, we're looking at either loss of control of the House or a blue wave. We'll see if it changes. We'll keep tracking it, but that's where it is now. And that's a big change from just a three or four weeks ago. That's my reported model. Like there you have it. Send me your email. Let me know what you think. You can send an email to nextup halpernmail.com tell me if you think my analysis, my reporting is correct. And as always, we'd love you to be part of the program in a sustained way. Don't leave it to chance. Go on YouTube or on the podcast version of the show and subscribe like you'll see full episodes there, bonus material as well as a great clips from all our programs. You go to YouTube.com nextup halperin and on the podcast same thing. Subscribe like share it. We have many Nexters growing every week, but we want more. So do me a favor and share this program. If you like it, tell other folks to listen to it and sign up so they get the programs automatically delivered. All right, a quick break. When we come back, my conversation with my pal and colleague Maureen Callahan. We're talking about everything under the entertainment and gossip sun. Maureen Callahan is next up. Hey, did you know that high blood pressure is the number one risk factor for mortality? One in two adults has it. That means there's a 5050 chance you are the equivalent of a walking time bomb. But here's some good news. 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Hi, I'm Gabby Windy with Long Winded. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your attention in any way possible. So listen to my podcast, won't you? It has great insights, exceptional humor and plenty of pop culture to fill your dark souls. And some even say it's a great way to fall asleep due to my soothing voice. And I don't take that personally. Fall asleep. A listen is a listen even when you're sleeping. And a view is a view even with your eyes closed, if you dare. And it doesn't take much gumption. Enjoy. Listen to Long Winded wherever you get your podcasts.
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All right, next up and joining me now, really a fan favorite here, one of the best guests ever in the history of Next up. In the 42 years this program's been on, no one has caused the same virality audience reaction as Maureen Callahan, my fellow columnist at the Daily Mail and my fellow hosts of a program here on the MK Network. Maureen, host the Nerve released on every streaming platform that's ever been invented every week, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Maureen, welcome back.
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D
Thanks for having me, Mark. And thank you for that very generous introduction.
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C
It's all data driven, it's all fact based.
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D
I'm actually AI. I'm not.
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C
I don't exist subject Subjectively, I wouldn't necessarily say you were the absolute favorite guest we've ever had, but the data don't lie. The data suggests you should really quit your show and come join mine. Because every time you're on that we spike, the numbers spike.
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D
Well, I love to hear that. I'm so happy that it's something I would never have predicted. But we have this nice co mingling I think. I really love where it feels kind of like a pizza day at school. It's like there's a lot of really dark news going on and it's like just talking about fun show busy. Ridiculous gossip, you know, can be really just like a nice palate cleanser.
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C
Yes, we're going to cleanse all palates, talking about great stories, but just we're in awards season. Do you love awards season? The sprint from the first award show. We just had the Golden Globes, right. And we're headed towards Oscars, etc. Do you, do you love the, the awards season?
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D
I do. I love it in a, in a different kind of a sideways approach. We have at the Nerve. We did a Globes livestream for the red carpet. We're doing a Globes live stream. We're doing an Oscars livestream for the red carpet in March. I actually think now the spectacle really is in the campaigning for the Oscar which begins the winter prior. So this really began at the end of 2024. Over at the Nerve we are following assiduously Timothee Chalamet, who we call Timothy Shyamalama Ding dong. His relentless insistence that he has been putting out now for the seven or eight years that he has been professionally acting in cinema, that he's been putting out some top level shit.
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C
Mark. Yeah, verbatim.
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D
I quote that verbatim. So give him the Oscar.
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C
Yeah. Pound for pound. And they're both, well, one's fatter now, but they both have been thin. Pound for pound. Who's a better actor, Chalamet or Leo Dio?
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D
Oh, Leo D. No question. Oh, forget you put up Leo. First of all, child prodigy. What's eating Gilbert Grape? Okay, for my money, one of the all time best Leo performances in the Departed. He should have won the Oscar for that.
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C
Yeah, genius. I, I, I agree with you. The Leo's better. But I gotta say, Chalamet is impressive to me.
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D
How so, Mark?
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C
He is, I just, I, I think he's, I think he's got. The camera loves him and he loves the camera.
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D
Do you find him an adequate representation.
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C
Of masculinity, A certain type of masculinity of someone whose last Name ends in E.T. i mean, he's, he is what he is. He's not in Leo's category. It was almost a, it was almost a test, like a Willy Wonka test at the end of the movie. Of course. Leo Diaz better. But I'm just saying I'm impressed with Chalamet. I think he's, I think he's special.
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D
What is your. I've got, I've got to probe you a little bit on this. Have you watched many of his performances? And if so, which ones? Okay, which ones have really, like, electrified.
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C
You, what you would call it? Wonka, really? Yeah. I thought he was. I thought he was. I mean, that's the one where I thought he was special. The first thing I saw of his. That he saw. But I. I tell you, I also loved him at the Globes. I thought he was very charismatic. At the Globes.
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D
I did not buy his aw, shucks, I'm so humble act.
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C
Really.
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D
Oh, God, no, Mark. This was like three weeks after I'm doing Top Level, went viral. And I think Mama Jenner, you know, he's dating Kylie. Oh, I know Kylie Jenner. You know, I think. I think she and. And his management team grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and said, you better dial this back. It's not helping your cause to be demanding an Oscar and saying you're the most talented actor out there going, yeah.
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C
All right, I'm going to ask you one more awards show question, and then we're going to move on to some other topics. You can either reference specific programs or just oeuvre.
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D
Who.
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C
Who are the three granddaddy. Grandmommy of them all. Hosts of award shows.
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D
Ricky Gervais, number one.
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C
Ricky Gervais, Number one.
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D
Yeah. Number one. No comparison. Number two, I don't know if Joan Rivers ever hosted.
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C
Good question.
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D
She would have been just a.
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C
No, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask AI why you give me number three.
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D
I don't think he ever did it, and I don't think he ever would have deigned to do it, but the late, great George Carlin.
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C
Yeah. Okay, so I agree with you about Gervais. I just think, you know, duh, Carson and. And I'd love Billy Crystal. I also love Tina Fey and Amy. Those would be mine. Those would be mine.
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D
Tina Fey and Amy's joke about George Clooney at the Globes. Do you remember that?
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C
I remember. I remember that it got a huge gasp and then laughter. But what was the joke?
- [30:49]
D
I'm gonna paraphrase it, but basically, like, George Clooney starred with Sandra Bullock in Gravity, and being in such close proximity to a woman who wasn't 40 years his junior made him float himself off into space.
- [31:01]
C
Right? Yeah, they're. They're great. They're great. And lastly, what's her name? Nikki. Nikki. Laser fan. Not a fan of her hosting.
- [31:11]
D
I'm not really a fan of hers. She's a little bit too. There's an air of desperation that comes off of her, like she wants to be accepted by those people so badly. And I just think if you're going to do it right, you have to kind of be oppositional. You have to be oppositional enough. I would also like to give a special mention to Chris Rock who recovered. I don't know anybody else who could have recovered the way that he did after he was smacked by, by Will Smith at the Oscars that year.
- [31:39]
C
If you get there, if you get the Oscar hosting handbook, there's nothing in there. But if you are struck physically, there's nothing in there. You have to improv that. And he did.
- [31:47]
D
He, he really did. I mean, he. And he really gathered himself in that moment. And by the way, I'm reading reports that the Oscars are about to lift their ban on Will Smith. And this is why. Just yet another piece of evidence as to why Hollywood is dying. If they do that. F them for real.
- [32:04]
C
I love award season. All right.
- [32:06]
D
You do. I didn't know that.
- [32:07]
C
I love award season. I just, I just love it. And, and I gotta say, I watched the awards the way I watch NFL games now, which is. I don't watch live. I watch about. I start about half an hour after it begins. Miss. Skip all the commercials. Unless they're like super bowl quality commercials. And then I skip the stuff I don't want to see. I don't need to see the Japanese animator giving his speech about best foreign language cartoon. I don't need to see that one. So very efficient. I speed right through it. But the parts I love, I love. I love the fashion, I love the cutaways. I said, no, no more questions. But I do have to ask you one as we segue into today. I walked out of the second Wicked because the young person I was with didn't like it. So I didn't finish it. But is it, is it an outrage that Ariana was not nominated or totally fine?
- [32:55]
D
You know, I have to be fully transparent and tell you I have zero interest in the Wicked movies. I haven't seen them. And what doesn't help is the carpet bombing in the culture. It felt very much like the promotion for Barbie. Remember that summer where it just blanketed everybody and it was like, we're going to force you. We're going to frog march you to this theater. You're going to have to see this movie to feel like you're part of the conversation. I felt the same way about the Wicked promotional tours initial and this year's. And I found it really disturbing. You know, this is a movie that's really marketed towards tweens yeah, young girls and tweens. And the two of them practically dry humping and copulating on any given red carpet or, or, or Entertainment Tonight Access Hollywood Media interview. I just, I found it so off. I mean, like, I'm not a prude, but like I just found it so off putting and so completely. Again, there's a desperation to it. Like anything for eyeballs. Anything, Anything.
- [33:52]
C
It's a machine, the two of them, the way their publicists manipulate them. But I have to say, I know she's a singer and I know she's an actress. I think she's such a brilliant comedian and impressionist that I want everything for her because her impressions are, are so extraordinary.
- [34:08]
D
I was unaware of that.
- [34:09]
C
Incredible. Oh, you serious? When we're done, the minute we're done, go on YouTube and just search Ariana Grande impressions. She's, she's phenomenal. She does singing and talking impressions of people. They're, they're extraordinary. All right, let's talk about. Are you good at, Are you good at chronology, remembering things, dates and things? Are you good at that?
- [34:28]
D
Well, I'm not like, is it Mary Lou Henner who has that very rare. It's not, it's kind of a gift, but like she can remember the date and time and that day of the week of just about anything that's ever happened in her life.
- [34:42]
C
I am not now, nor will I ever ask you to be Mary Lou Henner. But I am going to ask.
- [34:46]
D
I'll do my best.
- [34:47]
C
When did it ends with us? When? How many years ago was that released? Three years.
- [34:52]
D
Oh, it ends with us. I'm going to say maybe two.
- [34:54]
C
Two years.
- [34:55]
D
The summer of 24 maybe.
- [34:57]
C
And did the controversy start before, after the film came out?
- [35:01]
D
I believe she filed. God, did she file before? Did that film come out in 25?
- [35:08]
C
I think she filed before. And it disrupted the PR, right?
- [35:10]
D
It did. Because what we're seeing in this, in this document dump of emails that are among like not only Blake and Ryan and Justin, but Sony executives and other A list stars, right. The head of Sony is saying, listen, this is now the only thing this movie is going to be remembered for. He called her an effing terrorist. Blake Lively, Right. Yeah.
- [35:34]
C
So, so where are we? Just level set before we speculate about what's going to happen next. Who's got the upper hand right now?
- [35:41]
D
I think Baldoni does because at least in the public square because this latest document dump is so damning. Now the headline here I can get to Taylor Swift's involvement In a minute.
- [35:52]
C
We'll get to Taylor in a minute. But I want to talk about the two of them and Ryan first.
- [35:56]
D
Oh, psycho arsonist Ryan. And any viewer of the nerve knows he burned down his elementary school in Canada and boasted about it and got away with it, but for the warmth. No, no, I think it's a sexual kink, as most arsonists experience. That's why they're in the. They're in the trade, as it were. This document dump is very, very damning because Blake is begging for help from the likes of Matt Damon and her rumored one time paramore, Ben Affleck for help in wresting control of this movie from Justin, who was the director who financed the movie. And what's not in any of these communiques, Mark, is. Oh my God, you guys. He sexually harassed me, right? He sexually tried to take advantage of me. It's not there. It's not there. And when she went, ran, running to the New York Times, that was her entire. The entire spine of her lawsuit. This guy sent sexually harassed me.
- [36:51]
C
Right. When you say one time Paramore, does that mean at one time they were alleged to be of lovers or they just had one hookup?
- [36:58]
D
Oh, well, I. Well, I could only speculate, but it was very heavily rumored at the. When they were shooting the town. Great movie.
- [37:06]
C
She's very good in the town.
- [37:08]
D
She's not bad in it. You know, she's a little. She. The problem with casting, I find in Hollywood the mistake they often make is you cannot hire someone who has had extensive cosmetic work. I'm not saying Blake has, but she looked a little too expensive. And I'll tell you another one. That was a major, major mistake. Do you remember Manchester by the Sea starring Casey Affleck and Michelle Williams? Okay, the problem with Michelle Williams as a lower income single mother in a backwater town in Boston, her eyebrows were way too beautifully groomed.
- [37:42]
C
Yeah, they should have muster right out of it. What's that? Charlize Theron. She's had some roles where they've muster up quite a bit.
- [37:50]
D
Right? Yeah.
- [37:51]
C
Okay, let's just talk about the three of them. Blake Lively, Ryan Reynolds and Justin. Are they working? I know they're spending a lot of time with their lawyers and publicists, but are the three of them getting work these days? Projects?
- [38:04]
D
No. Blake, as the Sony exec predicted accurately is unhirable now. Yeah, Ryan has actually been dropped, I believe by Paramount. He had three movies on the slate in development. He's been dropped by them. Baldoni. We don't Know, I mean, I've read reports that, I mean, the stress of this entire lawsuit has, has kind of really leveled him and devastated him. You know, he's gonna, he's gonna need to sort of come out the other end of it. I can, I can only hope that somebody's going to offer him work, you know, in these exchanges with Matt Damon. Matt's saying to Blake he's buying everything she's selling, hook, line, and sinker. And he says, well, I hope that you'll come make a movie at our studio over at Artist Equity, the one that he runs with Ben, that they co founded.
- [38:56]
C
Yeah.
- [38:56]
D
But I, I, if anybody deserves a second chance here, it's. It's Justin Baldoni.
- [39:01]
C
Yeah, but as far as you know, he's got no current projects.
- [39:04]
D
I haven't, I haven't been on IMDb Pro.
- [39:07]
C
Yeah.
- [39:07]
D
I should look. Yeah.
- [39:09]
C
So there's going to be a trial in May. At least that's when it's scheduled for. What's at stake in the trial?
- [39:15]
D
Who.
- [39:15]
C
Because they've been suits and countersuits. So is it everything all together, or is it his. Her suit against him or his suit against her? What is the trial in May?
- [39:23]
D
The last I read, the judge in the case tossed Baldoni's countersuit. Now, I believe they can still refile. The problem I have with this judge is that this judge is the brother of Doug Lyman. Doug Lyman is a very big Hollywood director. He directed Mr. And Mrs. Smith with Brad and Angie. Yeah, I don't know how you couldn't say there's not a conflict of interest here.
- [39:47]
C
I mean, you got to find a judge in Hollywood who doesn't have Hollywood connections. I'm sure there's.
- [39:51]
D
But this is happening in New York.
- [39:53]
C
Yeah, yeah. The trial's in New York.
- [39:56]
D
I believe it's in New York City. I believe that's where Blake filed. Blake Lake and Ryan live here. They live in Tribeca. They had a lot of their interactions with Justin Baldoni, electronically or otherwise were in New York. I believe the film shot in and around New York, possibly New Jersey. There's a lot of filming in New Jersey.
- [40:14]
C
Now, wouldn't it be, Wouldn't it be spectacular if I got selected to be a juror in that case?
- [40:19]
D
I mean, right now this is like evidence. Evidence. You get tossed out on your, you.
- [40:24]
C
Know, I mean, I've never gotten on a jury, and I don't really want to, but I did, I did do Voir Dear once, and they were like, no, sorry, you're not going to be on the jury, but I'd like to be on this one. All right, let's talk about Taylor. As I read the. Most of my. Most of my connection to this is through the Daily Mail in the New York Post. But as I read this, Taylor and Blake are, I mean, this stopping, say, not good for their friendship. What do we know about the current attitude they have towards each other as revealed in what we know? And then again, what have we learned about the communications that have come out in part of the case?
- [41:01]
D
Well, I'll take the second question first. Last. Last winter, end of 2025. Tree Payne, who is Taylor's publicist, pushed back on any inference that Taylor had any. Anything whatsoever to do with the making of it ends with us, of the war that was going on between Blake and Justin and Ryan and Justin that, yes, she did happen to be at the Tribeca penthouse loft when Blake and Ryan were giving Justin just a complete lecture, bully punishment about how this movie was going to get done. Yeah, Taylor was there, but it was a complete accident and she was fully mute. Now, these document dumps completely prove that to be a lie. A lie. Okay. Blake and Taylor were texting with each other. Taylor sends Blake a text message with a link to a People magazine story. It's a pickup of a Justin interview. And Taylor writes this. I think this knows something is coming. Taylor writes to Blake that Justin has made a strategic error in agreeing with Blake's suggestion that they use a Taylor Swift song in the trailer for the movie. And Taylor says, if Justin were strategic, he would have said no to that because I am your ally, not his, and now you have more power. So she's all over this. And then Blake is saying to. To Blake is saying to Taylor that she was, quote, epically heroic today. I believe that was the meeting that I just mentioned.
- [42:43]
C
Right.
- [42:44]
D
And that she was recounting all of. All of everything that Taylor has been saying to Ryan, who's just lapping it all up. So what you're seeing, what it looks like to me is a concerted effort among three a listers, one of whom has no business in it. Like, this is not her movie. I mean, Mark, this would be like if you called me up and you said, maureen, I'm having problems with my. My book editor, which I have nothing to do with. Would you help me destroy the book editor so I can go like.
- [43:15]
C
And I would be like, first of all, if we were absolute besties, I might ask you for help.
- [43:19]
D
But. But that kind of help, I. First of all, I would say no. And secondly, I would begin distancing myself from you because that is a very dark impulse.
- [43:27]
C
Yeah. Like.
- [43:28]
D
Yeah.
- [43:28]
C
Is that, is that what Taylor has done? Is Taylor now fully distance.
- [43:32]
D
That is the reporting. But you know what? Nobody believes these people anymore because they do lie so much. So there is now under the surface reports that actually Taylor has only distanced herself from Blake publicly, but that there, there's suspicion that privately they still have some kind of communication.
- [43:51]
C
So wouldn't this be the acid test? Is Blake going to take Taylor's wedding?
- [43:56]
D
That's the acid. But again, you know, is it just like, hey Blake, I need you to stay away for, you know, my own.
- [44:02]
C
But if they're preservation. But if they're still secretly friends, she can't miss what Taylor hopes will be her one and only wedding.
- [44:09]
D
I mean, Mark, I think you mistake like a list Hollywood allyship for like genuine real friendship.
- [44:17]
C
You don't think they were ever genuine friends? They seem.
- [44:19]
D
I do. I actually think they were likely. I like I talked about this on the nerve the other day. If you look at images of them photographed and put on their own social media and paparazzi photos, I think there was a psychosexual element to that friendship.
- [44:33]
C
Most every relationship Taylor has is basically psychosexual.
- [44:37]
D
Yeah, but this is like this sort of, I think explains the kind of enmeshment that Taylor has in how this all turns out for. For Blake.
- [44:47]
C
Totally agree. All right, so there's, you mentioned the document dumps and there have been disclosures all along, some throughout the. The courts, but some the publicists are releasing to gain various upper hands. Do we have reason to believe that there's explosive documents, emails and other things that haven't been released yet?
- [45:02]
D
I would bet that there are. You know, I think that Justin Bald Baldoni's attorneys are extremely strategic and very media savvy. And you know, every time they get denied by the court or a motion is tossed, they make sure that that hard evidence that is in writing, that is in black and white, you know, and it just, it gets out to the public and it truly boggles the mind. You think these people would be smarter. The smartest person so far in this entire mess is Matt. Sorry, Ben Affleck, who Blake's email to him is one for the ages. One for the ages. And on top of it, the, the lawyers have noted, you know, she sent it to Ben at like almost one in the morning. And it's very lengthy, it's very desperate. And it says non responsive, which means they have no physical evidence that Ben ever replied.
- [45:57]
C
Right. All right, I'm asked the producers. Can I ask one more question before we go to break? Is that okay? Yes. Okay, here's my question. Who's smarter of the, of the three of them, who's the smartest of Ryan, Blake and Justin? Who's the smartest and why of Ryan, Blake and Justin? Yeah, yeah. Who's the smartest?
- [46:16]
D
I'm going to say Justin. I think Justin playing the long game.
- [46:21]
C
Yeah.
- [46:21]
D
Justin has kept himself quiet. The people around Justin are very quiet. I'm. I've been really impressed so far with the. Again, these are, I believe, coming from his side. But the communiques between Justin and his intimates, which are all they all they all to a one say the same thing. I'm just trying to keep my head held high. I, I am trying to get through this with my dignity intact. There's no talk of revenge, no talk of retribution. You're not seeing a Taylor Swift kind of tossed off this bitch. You know, is, is it is causing like there's none of it. And I just think karma has a very long tail and I think this will end, end up redounding to his benefit.
- [47:04]
C
And he's done no interviews, right? He's done.
- [47:06]
D
No, not that I'm aware of. I don't think he's done them yet.
- [47:08]
C
I think you and I should get the first one after he wins a trial.
- [47:12]
D
I guess I would love for Justin to come on the nerve after, you know, if this thing even goes to trial, but I can't. I can't believe it's going to go to trial like and that and that. To your question about who's the smartest? If I'm Blake and Ryan, who clearly think they're really smart. I mean, Ryan thinks he's really smart.
- [47:27]
C
He does.
- [47:28]
D
You know, you settle this, you drop it.
- [47:31]
C
They still could. They could. Right on the eve of the trial. All right, we got to take a break. We're over a little bit. But next up, more with Maureen. Come right back. All right, let's talk snacks. Now. You ever taking a look at the nutritional label on a bag of typical chips? What you'll see on there is a chemical cocktail. Things like seed oils, msg, artificial dyes, vague references to some natural flavors and ingredients that sound more like a science experiment than a healthy snack. Masa is redefining snacking with real food. Their chips have just three ingredients. Organic corn. Good. Sea salt. Good. And 100% grass fed beef tallow. Also good clean simple, tasty Masa chips leave you satisfied and energized without the crash, bloat or sluggishness you so often get with typical chips. There's no binging, no lingering hunger. Just a snack that feels good every time. Tastes good too. Personally, I like the blue corn right now, as are my favorites. But you'll love them all. And if you love Masa, you'll also love Vandy Crisps. Vandy is Massa's sister company. They make the most delicious just three ingredient potato chips I've ever tasted. I like the original, but some of you will like the Smokehouse barbecue, maybe the French onion. But if you're ready to give either one a try, maybe both Masa and Vandy use the code mark you get 25% off your first order at either masachips.com or vandy crisps.com you can also just click on the link in the video description or scan the QR code. You can claim this delicious offer and if you don't want to order some online but want to go buy some right now, Masa and Vandy are available nationwide at your local Sprout supermarket. Stop by right now, pick up a couple of bags before someone else nabs them.
- [49:17]
A
Hi, I'm Gabby Windy with Long Winded. And I'm not going to lie, I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your attention in any way possible. So listen to my podcast, won't you? It has great insights, exceptional humor, and plenty of pop culture to fill your dark souls. And some even say it's a great way to fall asleep due to my soothing voice. And I don't take that personally. Fall asleep. A listen is a listen even when you're sleeping. And a view is a view even with your eyes closed, if you dare. And it doesn't take much gumption. Enjoy. Listen to Long Winded Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [49:57]
B
It's tax season, and at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last bit. Big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com special offer for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.
- [50:31]
C
All right, welcome back. We're going to talk more. Couldn't be more excited to have Another segment here with Maureen Callahan, my colleague on the MK Media Network, columnist at the Daily Mail, host of the Nerve. New episodes every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday on YouTube, where you get your podcasts, probably on LinkedIn for all I know. Maureen, you can pass on these, but I need, I need some data. If you don't have an answer, you just pass. Is there a new TV show you're watching that you'd recommend?
- [50:57]
D
Riot Women on Britbox?
- [50:59]
C
Brit Box. Brit box costs like 12 bucks a month.
- [51:02]
D
Something like that. There's. There's tears. Yeah.
- [51:04]
C
What's the, what's the premise of Riot Women?
- [51:06]
D
Riot Women is about five middle aged menopausal women in Britain who, who decide to take out their. Their rage by forming a rock band.
- [51:17]
C
Awesome. And is. Is it. Is it all. Is it all. Can you binge it? Is it all up there?
- [51:21]
D
I think it's all up there. I think it's all six episodes. Yeah.
- [51:23]
C
Yeah. Okay. Anybody you knew you're following on Instagram.
- [51:27]
D
That you fancy it ends with us lawsuits.
- [51:31]
C
That's an Instagram account?
- [51:32]
D
Yep.
- [51:32]
C
What goes on there?
- [51:34]
D
All the latest data dumps in the Bench in the Blake Lively Baldoni scandal. Yeah.
- [51:40]
C
All right, I'm going to join and join that one immediately. Anybody new on Substack you're reading?
- [51:46]
D
No, but you know what I need to do, Mark? I need to cancel my subscription to Ryan Liz's substack, which I was reading for just the latest version of his. His side of events.
- [51:55]
C
What do you think that if 100% got. Take the 100% of people who signed up because they had to to read his stuff on his divorce or not divorce, but his broken engagement. What percentage of those people do you think have canceled or will cancel?
- [52:11]
D
Like 90%. I mean, let's be real, Mark. The only people who signed up for people like us, media people.
- [52:15]
C
Yeah, the. The stuff he's written on there since that isn't about the Kennedy story. Not that interesting.
- [52:24]
D
I wouldn't know. It's not making headlines, I can tell you that.
- [52:27]
C
Not even reading. Okay, anybody new, any new podcast you're listening to?
- [52:32]
D
Oh, that's a good question. You know, I'm late to this. It's not a new podcast. A friend of mine turned me on to it. It's called the Rest is History. Do you know it?
- [52:40]
C
Yeah, I. I've never listened to it, but people love it. They think it's. They think it's quite captivating.
- [52:46]
D
Yeah, it definitely is. They just did Joan of Arc in four or five segments deep Dive and stuff. I never knew. It's great.
- [52:53]
C
Do they have somebody playing Joan of Arc or they're just talking about her?
- [52:56]
D
No, they talk about her and they.
- [52:58]
C
They.
- [52:58]
D
They sort of interview each other. You know, one of the. One of the two British historians will take. Or sometimes they'll have. They'll bring in a British historian or any historian, but they. They come at it always with a fresh angle, and it's just. It's fascinating stuff.
- [53:11]
C
All right, any new place you want to visit? Any new, like, bucket list location you want to get to?
- [53:17]
D
Yeah, so, you know, we did a first edition of the Nervy Traveler with Belinda Carlisle, which dropped over the holidays, and that was Mexico City. Next we're going to the south of France, which has this entire. Like, it's a. I didn't know any of this. And, like, I was raised Catholic. I went through 12 years of Catholic school, but I didn't know that after Jesus Christ died, Mary Magdalene relocated to the south of France, and her skull is ensconced in, like, a basilica there. Like.
- [53:47]
C
Like, she go there for the weather. Why'd she go there?
- [53:50]
D
Oh, no, she was. She was. She was. She was building her. Her own religious following there. And there are all kinds of theories as to why she went there.
- [53:59]
C
That's so interesting.
- [54:00]
D
Yeah. So we're gonna go there next. That's in September.
- [54:03]
C
That's a long way off. September.
- [54:05]
D
Yeah. But it takes a long time to plan a trip like this.
- [54:07]
C
Yeah, that's true. All right, good List. One more. Any new celebrity you fallen in love with, like, just as a journalist, like, anybody who's newly captivating you.
- [54:17]
D
Well, this isn't a new captivation, but I was very excited to hear that Harry Styles has a new album coming.
- [54:23]
C
Out with a great title.
- [54:25]
D
Oh, my God. The title's amazing, right?
- [54:27]
C
Yeah.
- [54:28]
D
Will you say the title?
- [54:29]
C
I gotta look it up. I know it's great, but I can't. I can't think of it off the top of my head. But. But why you talk about why you like it.
- [54:34]
D
Like, part of it is, like, disc. Occasionally.
- [54:37]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it's like.
- [54:38]
D
It's like Kiss All Night.
- [54:39]
C
Kiss All Night Disco occasionally. Hold on, I'm gonna find it. Kissed All Night Disco occasionally.
- [54:45]
D
I love it.
- [54:46]
C
It's one of those things where it's. Of course, I should have thought of that. I could have named everything I do.
- [54:51]
D
Who would have thought of it? You know? And I love that Harry goes dark for, like, a couple of years. He lets everybody miss Him. He doesn't. There's nothing graspy or needy about it. And then he comes back and he's doing, like a mini tour. He's going to do 50 dates in only seven American cities.
- [55:09]
C
Yeah.
- [55:10]
D
Oh, and also, I'm going to see live for the first time. This guy's established and has been around forever. But in late February, I'm going to see Chris Stapleton live for the first time in Connecticut. I can't wait.
- [55:20]
C
What's the venue for that in Connecticut?
- [55:22]
D
It's. It's like the Mohican Sun. Like, I've never been to a show at, like, a casino, but I got to do it.
- [55:29]
C
I've never. I have been like, well, I'll look it up myself. But I've never been to Mohegan Sun. But they get big acts there.
- [55:36]
D
There are tons of big acts there.
- [55:38]
A
Yeah.
- [55:38]
D
I think Jerry Seinfeld also gets a lot. Does a lot of dates at places like that.
- [55:43]
C
You know my theory about Harry Styles, and I don't mean this in a negative, to the contrary, I think he might be an alien. He's too perfect, you know?
- [55:50]
D
You think he might be an alien?
- [55:51]
C
He might be an alien or Jesus. There's just something about him. He's. He's ethereal. Is that the right word? Did I say that right? Yeah, he's like, not like a person. He's like a. He's like an apparition. Like an angel. Maybe he's an angel.
- [56:03]
D
I just love him. And I loved God. I'm blanking on the name of the album, the California album. He did that. It had that whole 70s, like, oh, my God, Laurel Canyon vibe. You know, Somebody was the.
- [56:20]
C
Someone will say my ear. Someone say my ear.
- [56:22]
D
So good.
- [56:23]
C
Do you know the names of his parents and his siblings?
- [56:26]
D
I don't.
- [56:27]
C
It just popped up here when I googled looking for the album title. I. I just find this interesting. His mom's name is Anne Twist. Like olive.
- [56:34]
D
Oh, my God.
- [56:34]
A
It sounds.
- [56:36]
C
Yeah, right, right. And his dad's name is Desmond Stiles. That's amazing. But now listen to the names of his siblings. Gemma Stiles.
- [56:45]
D
Good name.
- [56:46]
C
Good name. Anybody? Gemma. And then for some reason, his other sister and his brother have mom's last name. What's it called? Harry's house was the California album. Harry says. Anyway, that's what I'm told. I just repeat.
- [57:00]
D
I don't think that's right. I could be wrong. Okay.
- [57:03]
C
Gemma Styles. And then again, somebody could look this up. Why this Siblings have different names. His brother's name is Mike Twist, and his other sister's name is Amy Twist. This is the best name family ever.
- [57:15]
D
I know.
- [57:16]
C
Amy, Mike, Gemma, and then either they. They just choose buffet style styles or.
- [57:23]
D
Twist or styles twist or twist styles. There's a million permutations. Yeah.
- [57:30]
C
We've ever talked about Random Penguin. Have we ever talked about that?
- [57:33]
D
No.
- [57:34]
C
So when Random House and Penguin Publishing merged, I forget, it was a merger, takeover, whatever. They were trying to come up with the name, and they came up with all sorts of permutations. I think they ended up with. It's called. I think it's called Random Penguin. I think it's called Random House Penguin. I think that's what it's called. But someone suggested that they call it Random Penguin, which would have been the best because it's so, you know, avant garde. So at the Random Penguin, like, who publishes your books? Random Penguin.
- [58:02]
D
I know, but it really. It does sort of lack. That's the problem with it. It lacks gravitas. Exactly. Thank you. That was the word it's searching for.
- [58:09]
C
It's a little edgy, but I like it. I like it a lot. All right. We're talking about something. About something that involves the death of two people. So I don't want to be totally light in our tone, but I do want to talk to you about the murder of Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner by Nick Reiner. It's an incredible story. I met Rob Reiner and like everybody else, I was in awe of his work and very nice guy, but I think it's just. This is such an incredible. Just as a journalist, such an incredible story, both about just the fact of it, of the murder. He's not been convicted or pled guilty, so we could say alleged, but. But just their place in Hollywood and all this stuff about what they did the night before and him living in the guest house. So just. I want to drill down on some specifics, but what's your sort of overall view of. Of this drama?
- [59:01]
D
My overall view of this is that we are going to learn a lot more. And what we have learned thus far has me convinced that despite the public appearance of them as a very cohesive, happy family, that that was a very, very, very sick house. And that that house revolved around the drug addiction, the temper tantrums, the mental illness of Nick Reiner. And we are learning things about the ways in which they coddled him. You know, to me, the most telling thing so far, Mark, is Rob and Michelle asking Conan, allegedly, if they could bring their 32 year old, troubled drug addicted son to this glittering Hollywood holiday party. And what must have been going through the minds, I'm sure Nick Reiner was very well known to everyone in that room. And you know, just the deflation you can imagine and the eye rolls when he entered the room like this guy again, this problem again. I think the reason, you know, there are conflicting reports as to how it is that Alan Jackson, the superstar lawyer who got Karen read off, withdrew from Nick Reiner's case. He was the lead defense attorney. The reports are either that the surviving siblings sort of awoke from their shock and said there's no way we're going to bankroll this or secondly, the other thing that I've read, which I think is fairly dark, I'm just going to be honest, is that Rob and Michelle Reiner left their entire estate to charity. And I don't think that their children are seem very well equipped to care for themselves in the manner in which they were raised.
- [60:49]
C
Yeah, there's so much of this I want to ask you about. I want to start here number of years ago, I can't remember how long, but a pretty decent time ago on the Upper west side of Manhattan where I live, a nanny killed the, the kid she was taking.
- [61:04]
D
I remember this.
- [61:06]
C
And, and in the aftermath of that, parents with nannies were like, you know, this is scary, like leaving my kids with someone and apparently that person could, instead of taking care of him, kill him. I'm wondering in Hollywood or beyond or just rich people, particularly rich people whose children have addiction issues or mental health issues, like do you think parents are now thinking about that and seeing this as like a cautionary thing to say, you know, our kid could come in here and kill us?
- [61:37]
D
I mean it's a really good question. I don't know. I think what the Reiner case really highlights is what is truly like the dark underbelly of that level of fame and wealth. And when the offspring, when the children have no chance at ever matching or exceeding their parents success, you know, Rob Reiner, you know, the, the sort of attempt he made to bring Nick, who was never ever going to make it in his world, into his world by financing and directing a film called Being Charlie, which I believe he co wrote with Nick, which was all about Nick's addictions. Charlie was the stand in for Nick and you watch them on that press tour and all that's really coming off of Nick Reiner is hostility and enmity and rage and Rob's trying to laugh it off. And in retrospect you just look at that and you think it's the worst thing that Rob could have done. You know, and we're seeing a version of it now. You know, I had a conversation with this psychology professor named Sam Voxnin. We're gonna air it on the Nerve about Peg to the Nick Reiner thing. You know that there are many ways to kill your parents without killing your parents. And I think we're seeing a metaphorical version of that now playing out with the Beckhams. With Brooklyn Beckham renouncing his family on Instagram, taking to social media to castigate them for any number of slights, any number of insults he feels he's weathered. It also feels very adjacent to Harry and Meghan. This complete, it's both a lionization and an idolization of the parents and a complete and utter loathing of the parents. And I think both exist side by side.
- [63:31]
C
You know what the Beckham thing reminds me of, and I know you know about this, maybe you're not as familiar with it as I am, is what happened with Kellyanne Conway and her daughter who went on social media and, and, and talked all about her parents and her parents relationship. Her parents are now divorced. But it's, it's another, I mean it's not, it's not, it's not the same as being killed by your kid. But there is this, this thing particularly for celebrities, but again it could happen to other people where if your kid's unhappy and, and they want to make a break, they now have a choices of platforms where they can go on and say anything. Some of it could be true, some of it not. But if you're a celebrity, there's not much you can do except, except sit back and take it.
- [64:12]
D
You know, the thing that calls about Brooklyn Beckham's temper tantrum is that he spent his entire life springboarding from glamour job to glamour job, attempting to be anything from a DJ to a photographer to a model. Now he's slinging hot sauce. I'm not making that up. On the backs of his parents name and fame and he would never have had those opportunities without that. He wouldn't have a watch collection that's worth conservatively $1 million. If his daddy hadn't bought him those things. But in the, in the full circle of it, Mark, you see how David and Victoria also built this little monster. You know, they were probably trying in those ways to apologize for their own success, their own fame, their own vaulting ambition, full well knowing that their eldest would never ever, ever get to even Competing with them.
- [65:05]
C
Yeah. I want to ask you one more Rob Reiner question before we. We gotta stop there. There was a little thing for him at the Golden Globes, but at the Oscars, there's obviously going to be a big commemoration for Rob Reiner. I'm wondering. I've got an idea, but I'm going to tell you mine. Second, what, what do you think would be a fitting way to commemorate Rob Reiner at the Oscars?
- [65:25]
D
You know, I, I actually am. I'm a little bit more cynical than you are. The Oscars are very strange with who they remember the year. They, they wouldn't allow Matthew Perry to be like memorial.
- [65:37]
C
They're such snobs immemorial. Is like, Is like. Is like the Soviet Union. It's like you can't. You can't be honest. You got to do whoever's in favor out of it. But they're going to do Rob Reiner, I would hope.
- [65:48]
D
I mean, you know, I know the Spinal Tap sequel bombed, but I think probably my favorite scene in Spinal Tap is when they take the stage to what they believe is their replica of Stonehenge, but it's in miniature because Nigel or whoever like drew the model on a cocktail napkin. I'd love to see a recreation of that.
- [66:11]
C
Well, that's what I want, is recreations. I want a big stage, little tableaus, and do like the six most iconic scenes from Rob Reiner movies with the actors, either the original actors or if that doesn't work, great actors of today recreating the scenes. Just like little two minute vignettes. Do six of them for 12 minutes. I think it'd be spectacularly entertaining and a very fitting commemoration because, of course, as people have noted, he spanned genres. He did come. He did drama. He did everything. So that's, that's what I'm hoping they do. But, but I'm doing. I do look forward to seeing what they do. All right, as. As Bill Clinton would say, they're telling me I gotta quit. Maureen, very grateful to you. Thank you for being part of.
- [66:50]
D
Thanks so much for having me.
- [66:51]
C
Hope you'll come back soon. I, I want to go cover the, the trial with you together, so make sure. Save me a seat. All right, that's it for today's program. We're going to be back on Thursday with a brand new episode of Next Up. As always, help us expand our roster of nexties. Go to YouTube and sign up there. Download and like, subscribe, share it. And same with the podcast version. If you listen to that Please become a regular listener and share it with your friends. We want you and everybody you know to always know what's coming. Next up.
- [67:28]
A
Hi, I'm Gabby Windy with Long Winded. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your attention in any way possible. So listen to my podcast, won't ya? It has great insights, exceptional humor, and plenty of pop culture to fill your dark souls. And some even say it's a great way to fall asleep due to my soothing voice. And I don't take that personally. Fall asleep. A listen is a listen even when you're sleeping. And a view is a view even with your eyes closed, if you dare. And it doesn't take much gumption.
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Enjoy.
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Listen to Long Winded wherever you get your podcasts.
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