← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
How to Stay Ahead of the AI Revolution and What It Means for the Future of America, with Jeremy Jones
01:09:54
On a new episode of “Next Up with Mark Halperin,” Mark’s reported monologue breaks down why the AI revolution is bigger than most people realize and why millions risk falling behind if they don’t adapt now. He also breaks down AI pioneer Matt Shumer's rules for staying competitive in a rapidly changing economy, explaining how shifts in how people use AI today will determine if they succeed in the years ahead. Entrepreneur Jeremy Jones joins to discuss what it takes to build a business in today’s environment and how his life path led him into the AI world. He explains how campaigns, governments, and organizations are already using AI to track voter sentiment, test messaging, and potentially reshape political strategy. Plus, Natalie Winters and Rep. Joe Cunningham join to debate where both parties really stand on war, China, and the use of American military force overseas, and what it says about the future of U.S. foreign policy. https://shumer.dev/something-big-is-happening Acre Go...
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Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter?
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Right?
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And the best part, they accept Discover.
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Except Discover in a little place like this?
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I don't think so, Jennifer.
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Oh, yeah.
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Huh?
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Discover's accepted where I like to shop.
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Come on, baby, get with the times.
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Right.
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So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback, I think.
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Discover is accepted at 99% of places
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Hey Everybody, welcome to NextUp. I'm Mark Halpern, editor in chief of the live interactive video platform Two Ways, host of NextUp and your guide to the future. Ladies and gentlemen, big show, a lot of focus on AI because I'm consumed with being everybody's tour guide to what you need to know about AI Just I cannot believe how important it is and how little conversation there is amongst regular folks. So coming up, Jeremy Jones, not a regular folks, a young entrepreneur who's put AI at the center of his new business. He's the co founder of Redder AI driven by AI they do political stuff. They do help governments figure out how to find waste, fraud and abuse. He's currently working on a couple 20, 26 races advising Wesley Hunt who's in a three way primary for Senate in Texas. And also Steve Hilton who's been a guest here before running for governor of California. So we're going to talk to him about how he's building an AI company and get his view of how everybody can understand this better because there's just understandably, there's just, it's a complex thing. Not everybody understands it and we're trying to help you with that. Then our panel, former South Carolina Congressman Joe Cunningham. He's a Democrat, really thoughtful guy. The White House correspondent for Steve Bannon's war room and a co host of the show, Natalie Winters will be here. We're going to talk about American foreign policy, national security, use of force, what the latest census between maga, Democratic Party progressives, where, where is this country on the use of force overseas and also the influence of the AI business on politics. How the Two political parties are stacking up in terms of getting money from, from the AI and how they're going to use AI going forward to the future. But first, before that, my reported monologue, my mission. I really so serious about this is I'm not it. I'm not a pro at AI. I'm not in the business and not in the AI business. And I'm not super under. I'm not super genius about technology. But I, I'm trying to understand and help people understand AI as a cultural story, as a business story, as a technology story, and just as a human story. Because I know you've seen it on the show when people have come on before. I know how much ignorance there is about this because it's complicated and people are busy and they don't see the imperative to use it. And this is like, this is like when the Internet started, same thing I had people in my life say this thing is a fad and it's not a big deal. And obviously it's transformed our life. And there are some people saying, some that AI will transform our lives even more than the Internet. Now, before we dig into this, some of you, if you're watching, not listening to podcasts, but watching on, on YouTube, you're saying, Mark, you look like hell today. Well, why is that? So I need to explain that because I don't want to distract you for the whole episode. Woke up this morning, write my newsletter, get ready for this program, and for two way, two things I didn't have that I normally would have running water and Internet access. So you can imagine my morning because I initially was a little bit in disbelief, again, typically rely on them. So that's why I look like hell. And that's why, for those of you who get my newsletter, why I might have been a little late in your inbox today, back to the program. I've been, I've been, I've got friends who work in AI. One in particular I hope to have on the show soon. And I have been consumed for the last several months with the haves versus the have nots. We already live in a world, in a country, and in a world where the gap between the haves and the have nots is so pronounced. Income inequality, life, life, possibility, inequality. America is supposed to be the land of opportunity for everyone. It still is, more than any country that's ever existed. You can grow up poor and make yourself successful in all sorts of ways, including making a lot of money. AI has the potential to exacerbate the haves and the have nots. Because to use AI as a powerful tool to advance, grow a business, to be successful in your life requires intellect and it requires time and focus and accumulation of knowledge. And, and I see so many sophisticated people who have no clue what's going on, have no clue about how to use it. So. And if you're not a sophisticated, wealthy, well educated person and you're busy, you're working two jobs, you, you don't have time to sit at a computer on your phone and play with AI, you're in danger of falling behind. But even if you're a wealthy person, even if you're a super sophisticated person, you're in danger of falling behind. And I don't mean this in a pejorative way. I'm not saying the people who are in danger now are stupid or ignorant or lazy. They just, they just haven't caught on to the notion of what it takes to be part of this revolution. Okay, so I was watching Squawk Box the other day on cnbc. Incredible show. Joe Kernan, Andrew Ross, Sorkin, Becky was off. They were talking about AI kind of spontaneously. And this conversation to me was so representative of what so many people have as their attitude towards AI. And what struck me in particular was Joe Kernan's focus, almost an obsession on travel agents. Here's from earlier in the week. Here's a clip from some Squawk Box. It's all about AI. We're going to have an analyst on
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and strategist on everything.
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AI, AI. It's going to help some, hurt others.
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If you know how to integrate it,
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it might help you or your company might go to zero. I'm wondering, do you need someone that knows how to do this?
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I think maybe management is going to
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be more important than ever in trying to figure out how to make sure
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you're not just put out of business by AI. It's going to be very disruptive. Are there going to be anybody, any travel agents left?
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Will there be any travel agents left? No, but we could all use a travel agent. I had some travel travel problems, but will there be a, an AI agent
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that can, we can talk to and
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do the same thing that's a human or no. No.
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Yes.
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The travel agencies that, that are around
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right now will just have no employees then, right?
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Yeah, not no employees, but maybe, you
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know, a lot less. Yes, a lot less. I mean, it's, it's a daunting. Oh, there's going to be.
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For, for everything. For everything.
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It's all happening.
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It's all happening and it's happening quickly.
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And what about five years from now?
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You have no idea.
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You don't know one year from now.
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It's like trying to figure out the weather for next.
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You don't know a year from now
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how it's going to be. But five years from now, the world
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could be totally, totally different. The world will be totally different five years from now.
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In a good way.
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Depends.
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It depends. I love Joe Kernan. I'm just a huge fan of his. And he. Part of what I like is he's old fashioned, he's old school. I don't know if you all use travel agents and probably some of the younger audience members here may not know what a travel agent does, but back in the day when Joe was starting out, there was these massive travel agencies. If you had a work trip or you had a personal trip, just hundreds of people, thousands, tens of thousands of people in the travel agent business. And I believe the Internet mostly put them out of business because anybody can be a travel agent now for themselves, go on, kayak or whatever. And Joe is, is, is speculating here that AI is going to put out travel agents out of business. Yes, to the extent they're still travel agents, it will put them out of business. But, but I say with respect to Joe, because again, I'm just a huge fan of his, a lot bigger than that. It's not just about some industries that have hung on through the Internet age and adapted now going out of business. That's a 20 year ago thing. This is a now thing. This is so much bigger than that. And of course, both political parties are grappling with the issue of how to talk about this as an issue. But you have to get out of the mindset of this is going to put some things out of business and think about it positively. Too much of the dialogue about AI is it's going to eliminate half the blue collar jobs and half the white collar jobs that may happen. But my, my mission, my obsession now, my obsession now is to try to help where I can, to get all of you to understand this, to get all of you to understand how you as an individual, you and your family, you and your business, how can you be part of this revolution in a positive way? I don't want America to fall behind. I don't want you to fall behind because you're thinking about A.I. something that might put travel agencies out of business. Okay? So first thing I want to talk about is an essay that came out last week or two by a guy Named Matt. Matt Schumer. Okay. I'd never heard of Matt Schumer before. He is a American tech entrepreneur who has done a lot of work. He started a company called hyperrite, AI powered writing assistant designed to help users draft emails, essays and other content using long, large language models. I suspect that the essay Matt Schumer wrote this week that got so much attention was written partially by AI not in a bad way. This is what AI told me when I asked. I asked AI before the show. How, how have people received the Matt Schumer essay about AI? Here's what they said. Quote, one of the most widely discussed pieces on AI this year, prompting both serious engagement and sharp pushback from thinkers across the tech and policy world. Very well said, AI. Matt Schumer has all sorts of advice in here. And, and I can't tell you the number of people who sent it to me. It was in my social feeds. Have you read the Schumer essay? Have you read it? And, and very few people who sent it to me and said, have you read it? It turns out actually read it. Well, I read it carefully. I read it carefully and, and found so much in it that was helpful. I urge you to read it. Read the whole thing. It's not super long, but what Matt Schumer is saying is for you as an individual, this, this can be great, or it can be not so great. Don't be part of the have nots. Be part of the haves. And he gives very good practical advice about what you should do right now to thrive in AI. Now, Now, Matt Schumer's getting a lot of credit for saying some of these things, and I give him tons of credit. A lot of these things are things I've been saying. Not a lot, but some. Like, for instance, the have, have nots. That, that the fate is. It's. The fate is in your hands, in your own hands. You can be in the hats if you do what Matt Schumer says, but you, you cannot right now take it for granted. Nobody's your boss or your spouse or your kids. They're not going to come to you and say, here, read this pamphlet. You've got to be a. You got to adopt AI. Like, like if you worked in, in the bygone era, an ag era, and, and somebody bought you a plow and, and, and set it next to your farm. First plow you ever owned. And you couldn't just sit there and do nothing and say, the plow's gonna work itself. You have to put the plow on. You have to start using it. You have to start practicing. I'm no longer worried about myself or my family because I've read the Matt Schumer essay and I'm fully engaged. I'm fully engaged. I, I don't, I don't do as well as I should, and I'll talk about that in a second, but you've got to get fully engaged. Okay? So here's what Matt Schumer said in this essay. And, and by the way, the link to it, it's on, it's on the interweb. It's that you can see it in the show description on YouTube or if you're listening to podcast. So go read the whole thing, but don't read it now because I'm not done talking here. Here's some of the things he says. You got to commit to daily experimentation with AI, okay? You can't just use it when you got something to do. He recommends an hour a day. An hour a day not using it to solve practical problems, to, to deal with specific situations. And an hour a day just playing around with it. Now, if I told you you need to practice piano an hour a day, some days you would. Maybe some days you wouldn't practice. Now, since the essay came out, I've been practicing. I've taken that to heart. It's really important to get your mind around what this can do, and the only way to do that is to practice. He says an hour a day, I'd be, I'd take half an hour right now. Okay. Second, all these big, big things, ChatGPT, Gemini, they've all got free versions, and they've all got paid versions. And you might think, well, if Google had a paid version, I wouldn't pay 20 bucks a month for Google. I'd use the free version. That's good enough. No, 12. 20 bucks a month, that's, that's. I know that's a big lift for some people, but it's an investment in your future. And the paid versions of power user status versions, they're much better and they'll continue to get better. And I believe the gap between paid and free, which is already pretty big, will grow. Invest. Buy the paid version. Use the paid version. World of difference. Okay? Third, don't use it as kind of a different, more chatty Google, all right? Use it for problem solving. Don't just say, where's a good Italian restaurant in Detroit? When I, when I'm there next week, okay? Use it to solve problems. And, and, and I'm I'm getting better at this. But you got to remember, if you've got a problem to solve, your first instinct now should say, I'm going to try ChatGPT. Almost no matter what it is, almost no matter what it is. Anything that would take you more than a moment, ask ChatGPT to solve it for you. It's, it's, it's so good at solving problems very quickly. But you got to remember to do it. Do not treat it as a search engine. Treat it as, as a, just a high capacity problem solver. Okay? Fourth, he says, build adaptability as a core skill. This is extremely important. You've probably never in your life been asked to be so creative, to be so ready to change, to do things differently. You've got to do that with this. You've got to use as a user of it. You've got to constantly be thinking anew and, and as the models get better, you've got to think, okay, how can I take advantage of it? It's even better now. Okay. Lastly, be a builder. You know, some of you have jobs or personal lives where, where you are asked to be a builder, where you are asked to dream of something new, where you're asked to not just do what's already on your plate, do what's already, do things the way they've been done in the past. Some of you, some of you have a builder mentality. I've, I've, since I started two way with my colleagues, I've learned to be more of a builder. Right? If you've never been entrepreneurial, if you've never been an artist, maybe you don't necessarily have that builder sensibility, that builder gene, but that's what CHAT GPD is. You can build things with it. You can dream your biggest dream. You know, say, say you're redesigning your, your home, say you're building a new den extension on your home and you hire an architect and they, and they drop some plans, okay? And you say, you look at them and say, oh, maybe make this a little different, whatever, no, put those plans in CHAT GPT and start, and start working with it. What could I do to save money? What could I do to make this a little bigger? What could I do to, you know, fit in a, fit in a different kind of desk. What kind of desk should I get? Dream. That's a simple example. Dream big. And in particular, if you're using it for work, be a builder. Be a dreamer. Okay? Now part of why you need to do this is chances are the job you have now will be seriously threatened by ChatGPT and the others, the others by AI because it will eliminate a jobs. Okay, now here's the irony of all this. I'm so hyped up about making sure all of you have the best opportunity to make sure that whatever you love doing, whether it's in your personal life or your professional life, whatever you love doing, I want to make sure you can keep doing. The essence of it that Chat GPT is not going to. It might eliminate the specific job you have now, but we don't want it to eliminate the essence of what you love to do. You love to help people in your job, in a hospital, you love to teach, you love to write ad copy. Whatever you love to do want to try to preserve your capacity to do that. I'm not so worried and I'll tell you why. Because what I do, I think is one of the few things that's not going to be replaced by Chat GPT and AI and Gemini and all the others. Professional basketball player won't be replaced either. Okay, here's the key to. To what separates the. The things that will can people. The. The roles that continue to be played that won't be eliminated by AI from the ones that will be. Okay. It is, it is a long standing principle of business and of economics. I got this from one of the very smart people I know who works with AI, okay? If something becomes abundant, widely available, there's always going to be a thing adjacent to it that becomes rare and therefore becomes very valuable, very expensive. AI in my business, right, I'm a content creator. I create content programs like this, okay? They're gonna. You AI if you said to AI create me a program that's a political chat show, some people call, call the stuff that's not high quality slop, right? But they'll be, there'll be good shows created by AI before too long and then they'll be abundant. They'll be everywhere. But then there'll be shows that, that are rare because they're driven by people like me who, who have a connection to their audience. You saw this with music, right? As the Internet proliferated and streaming services, music could be distributed digitally everywhere, right? It killed the music business to some extent. It killed record stores and record companies and, and the ability to sell, you know, a C comp of record or a compact disc killed it all. But what exploded? Live concerts and the price of tickets for live concerts. So music is now ubiquitous. It's everywhere. You can get music anywhere. Going to A live concert, a rarer thing, high price. Okay, so now we have, People will pay to get a known artist, music provider to a private party. They'll pay them a million bucks or more to appear because they could. Listen you say, I want to hire Mariah Carey to come saying all I want for Christmas at my, at my Christmas party. You could, you could play, you could play the music on any device in your pocket, right? Could get, you could get that. But if you want her there adjacent, rare, but you pay a lot for it. Okay, People don't really like to talk about this, but for, for some people, for some people, the, the, the superior experience is in fact online, on the Internet, on social media, that, that's good for them because it's, they can get it anywhere, it's more affordable and they may, they may prefer it that way. Okay, as opposed to having a real world experience, an environment that's real with a real person, as opposed to, as opposed to something created by AI. Okay, but as the virtual world starts to occupy more of our time, more of our attention, okay, that means that real world, real human experiences more and more are going to be rare and therefore more special, more important, more valuable. Now this is a virtual experience. You're not in the room with me. Although, you know, we'll do some in person events and people will pay for that as well or enjoy coming to that. But what I'm doing here, AI can't do. I'm talking to you. I'm a human being. You're familiar with me. There's so many examples of this. The best and highest status stuff, handmade shoes, handmade watches, all of that is going to be sold at a higher price and be a valuable commodity. Many people will just care about stuff created by AI but some people will pay for and be, be more attracted to stuff like this. Think about chess, okay? For years people played chess, very popular. Then they invented computers that could play chess. And a computer could beat any, any human being, even the, the best chess champions, right? Machine always wins. But now even though you can play chess on your phone, you can play chess on your computer, you can play chess against other people virtually. The, the business of chess, the live tournaments, the, the, the, the, the chess masters who, who have programs that is not just more lucrative than anything else, but it's a cultural phenomena, a bigger cultural phenomenon than ever because it's adjacent to the ubiquitous available ability of chess. Okay? So I feel pretty good about me and my business because my business is not something that AI can duplicate, but For a lot of you, exactly what you're doing now, exactly assuming you love what you do, it's going to be replaced. And so your job is to read that essay by Schumer. Your job is to understand the principles of what you need to do, to position yourself, to be in the halves, to be part of understanding the power of this new technology. Every day I understand it more vividly every, literally every day I'm using it. Not an hour a day, but I need to try for that. I'm understanding it better. This is going to be massive in politics. It's going to be massive as a political issue as the parties try to side with people's fear. And what I'm telling you is side with hope, side with human possibility. Don't think of this as something that's going to destroy humanity. Think of it as something that's going to empower humanity and be on the have side to be empowered yourself. Read the Schumer essay. Look at those five principles. Experiment, build, take advantage of something that's going to change everything and make it positive for you. That's what I'm trying to do every day. And that's why I'm trying to spread the word. All right, that's my report for today. I want to know where your head is on all this stuff. Send me your feedback, your take on today's reported monologue. Write me an email nextup halperinmail.com remember to be a Nexter in full standing, full voting privileges, full rights and responsibilities. Make sure you subscribe on the YouTube channel. That's the only place you can see a full video of all the episodes and the bonus content we put there in the clips. Go to YouTube.com@/@nextup Halpern and if you're listening to the podcast version, same thing, do all the subscribing that automatic downloads everything you need to do. And please tell your friends, your family, tell them how much you like the show. Tell them how I'm here to guide you to the future. Not only what's next up in politics, but what's next up in this fundamental change that's occurring. All right, sign up. You'll make sure you get everything as soon as it drops right here, only on next up. All right, quick break now. And when we come back, a great pioneer, great business person who's trying to make sense in his own life and for the country of AI Jeremy Jones. He's the co founder of Redder AI Jeremy Jones is next up. Let me ask you something. Do you own physical gold? Most people don't, and given the current state of the world, that's worth thinking about. Acre Gold makes it very simple. You pick a plan that fits your budget, make monthly payments, and when you've accumulated enough, they ship you a beautifully designed 24 karat Swiss gold bar. Gold is up 70% year over year and central banks are still buying it at record levels. Smart money has been moving into hard assets for a good reason. 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21 All right, joining me now for continuing our conversation about AI, past, present and future. This is Jeremy Jones. He's the co founder of Red R AI. It's a political strategy firm focused on rooting out government waste and corruption. That's part of what they do. Also, Jeremy has some views about the future of polling which is where we're going to start. Currently he's doing two races in 2026. Pretty high profile ones. Wesley Hunt, who's in an extraordinary three way primary in Texas for the Senate seat currently held by John Cornyn. And then Steve Hilton who's been with us here on Next up before running for governor of California and has a damn good chance to be a Republican at least to make the runoff to be governor of California. Jeremy, welcome and thank you for Being here.
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Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
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You're, you're an entrepreneur. So talk about, just, we'll get to your current company in a second Radar. I just talk about your, how you became an entrepreneur, what gives you the ability to start businesses and, and what do you think it takes to make a great entrepreneur?
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Being crazy enough to, to buck the statistics. Run into the fray when everybody tells you not to. My mom is the reason why I do what I do. By and large, she's been my motivating factor ever since I was really, really young. Never to ask, never to stop asking why and always start to take a question and follow it all the way down to, to its, to its root. When I was young, I grew up in, I was born in Chicago, grew up in Luxembourg, and When I was 5 years old or in 5th grade, 12 years old, I went to my mom and I said, I want to visit my dad in Chicago. And like non normal mothers, she says, okay, I want you to take a week and actually think about this and if you really want to do it, I'll support you and I'll buy you a ticket and you can go to Chicago and visit your father and visit America. Took a week, came back to her and I said, yes, I want to do it. I didn't speak a word of English. She bought me a basketball, packed the duffel bag, put me on a plane, got off at o' Hare airport, and I still remember that feeling. I was like, well, this is home. I'm never leaving again. Took about a month for me to build up the courage to tell my mom that I didn't want to come home. And again she told me, take a week to think about it and if this is something that you really want to do, I'll support you in it. And I told her yes. And Obviously as a 12 year old, you don't really understand the demand you're making and how earth shattering that demand is. Now that I have two kids and I have a wife, I understand the request I was making and the sacrifice that she made to fulfill my dream as a kid. But she said yes, Sold everything, sold her house, picked up everything, moved back to Chicago and got back together with my dad, miraculously. And I've been in Chicago ever since. So I've kind of taken that energy throughout my whole entire life. I've done, I'm 34 now, but I've done, you name it, I've done it. I was a professional powerlifter. I've ran gyms for a Long time. I've owned a series of restaurants. I was a director of sales for a corrugated company. And the restaurant business was actually why I do what I do now. I think the more you interface with government, the more you understand how dysfunctional and broken things are in large cities. I always felt that the biggest benchmark for functionality of an urban city is can you build a small and medium sized business, particularly in things that have low barrier to entry, like a restaurant. Right. So like if you have a passion to be able to cook, can you take that passion and that know how, open up your doors, lease a business, lease a space and then start providing for your community? Can you do that successfully? I'm not saying you need to be a multimillionaire, but can you do it where you can feed your family? If you can't do that, then there's something deeply broken. And we learned our lesson the hard way in the Chicago, Illinois that that just wasn't feasible. And we recently closed.
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Because of permitting.
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Yeah, yeah, permitting. High property taxes, Covid restrictions, just the dysfunctionality, crime, lawlessness, you name it. Minimum wage laws that don't make any sense, that this support that impact small businesses more than they impact large businesses. Just fees to stay open, insurance costs.
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That's a good list. That's a daunting list. Yeah, yeah.
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So from there we started redr and now we want to solve the system and actually start to bring merit back to politics.
- [31:06]
C
Yeah. So I've started my own business too, called Two Way. And every business is different, but they've got overlapping, particularly if you're an entrepreneur, you're starting something new. You got to figure out how to get well known. You got to get into people's lives or partners and customers and clients. And right now, as you know, everybody says, well, how are you using AI? No matter what business you're in, people want to know how you're using AI. And some businesses. I'm a student of how businesses do this. They'll put AI in their name or they'll put in on their website. We're AI driven, AI first. But you actually, not only do you have AI in your name, but your company is in the AI business. It's not a feature of what you're doing to add on or a tool. It's the business you're in. So how did a guy who ran gyms learn enough about AI to build a whole business on it?
- [31:55]
D
I've always been technical, I've always been interested in tech. My skill set happens to overlap mostly in the human space more than it does in the tech side. But I've always been technical, I've invested in tech companies, I sit on boards of some tech companies. So I've always had that know how. And I've always been at the frontier of things. Like I mentioned, one of my core reasons of being alive is continually asking why.
- [32:20]
C
Right?
- [32:20]
D
And continually digging deep. So that naturally tends to be on the frontier of tech as well. So I started getting into large language models before they were even AI and started figuring out, okay, what is this thing? And before I dig into how we're using AI, I think it's really important for me to give you and your viewers a basic heuristic of what I say when I say AI. Because AI to me is like energy. And the question of is like, how are you using AI? It's asking a company, how are you using energy? Because AI is an umbrella term. But just because you're using AI doesn't really mean much to me because what AI actually is is algorithms. And algorithms require two things. They require data and they require instructions. And when you're using, when you talk to a general person on the street and you say, hey, have you used AI? 90% of people will think of something like ChatGPT or probably Gemini.
- [33:14]
C
Right?
- [33:14]
D
Those are the two largest systems that consumers use. The biggest problem is it's like the heuristic I always give to folks is if I ask my 3 year old to make me cookies and I could give her the best ingredients and I could give her the best recipe, she would still not be able to make great cookies. But where the magic really happens, and this is kind of where we get come in is when you have somebody who is a Michelin star trained chef, you give them the best ingredients in the world, you give them the best recipe in the world and they know exactly what to do with it. So that's really how we leverage these systems. We're very similar to Palantir in a way where we're not necessarily building our own large language models. I think that that starts to become a commodity as we start to these systems start to reach natural parity. I think give it a few years and the capabilities for Claude, Gemini and ChatGPT will all be more or less the same. How you use those systems and you apply those systems is really going to be the differentiator. Really what you need when you're using these systems is really robust data and a really robust recipe or prompting. When we're prompting these systems, our prompts aren't Paragraphs long, they're usually pages long. Their instructions with specifically what we're looking for, specifically what we wanted to do. And then the data set isn't just like one single sheet. It's a 5 gigabyte Excel sheet, or we're telling exactly where to pull data from. And that's really where the magic happens.
- [34:47]
C
Yeah. So, Jeremy, I understood every word you said, but I wouldn't have three months ago because I put in the time I talked about earlier in the show to understand all this. Let's break it down a little bit more. And again, you did, truly, you did a miraculous job because you're so immersed in this, you're so expert, but you've learned to use your cooking metaphor to try to bring people into this. First, you've got these two political clients. What other kind of clients do you have? Do you have corporations, governments? Who are your other kind of clients?
- [35:16]
D
Mostly government agencies. We work with government agencies right now to level set. We've only been in business since June of last year. So we're rapidly scaling out and the market is telling us what they need from us. We don't have a perfect point of view of like, this is what we're bringing to market. We're just generalists who know how to use these tools and we want the market to tell us what they want to use the tools for. But yeah, so we serve the for. If a politician comes to us, more than likely what they'll need or what they use a strategic firm for typically is polling and then also understanding what messaging works, what messaging doesn't work. Where do I need to tweak? Where's the opportunity? What is my opponent saying that I need to attack those kind of things. The beauty about AI when you're looking at strategic intelligence, the human mind is great at reading. But there's only so many folks in politics that are very, very good at what they do. The beauty about AI is I can take someone's brain who is very good at what they do and then increase the aperture, meaning I can increase the data points that they can take in. And by increasing the data points that they take in and making sure the brain, the person who is, or the AI that is analyzing those data points, that reduces the margin of error. Right.
- [36:32]
C
So one thing you've said which is so intriguing to me is that, is that what you. The kind of stuff you do is going to make political polling obsolete. Right? Yeah. So let's do a hypothetical. I want to run for mayor of Springfield against the incumbent mayor Quimby. And I think that the key issue that I really care about is I want to put free root beer in all the water fountains. I want to know if that's popular. So if I was a traditional campaign, I go hire a pollster, and we'd ask 500 people in Springfield, how do you feel about free Reaper in the waterfront? So would you be more likely to vote for a candidate who put free root beer in the waterfront? How does what you do, how do you accomplish the task to say that's a good issue to run on against Mayor Quimby?
- [37:11]
D
Yeah. So there's. I think there's a couple of things going on when we think about polling. Polling has this effect because there's a heuristic that if something's been around for a very long time, people think that it's accurate and they trust it. Polling has been around since the 1930s. It hasn't really changed very much since the 1930s. The biggest problem with polling in its current time is the fracturing of how people consume media and the fracturing of demographics on how we communicate about politics. The second piece is it doesn't take into account the way you phrase a question. Right. So if the way you phrase a question. Let's just say I ask the question,
- [37:51]
C
like, do free Reaper in the water fountain. Stay with me on my hypothetical.
- [37:55]
D
Yeah. So, okay, so what do you like root beer? And would you like it in the water fountains?
- [38:00]
B
Or.
- [38:01]
D
Root beer has a weird flavor. Do you want it in the water fountains? Right. So political framing, when you actually are answering a question, how the person feels, what happened, what they drank this morning, maybe had. You don't know their whole backstory. You're capturing a moment in time. If you can even get them on the phone, if they even answer the phone or SMS survey. What we do is we take the totality of data points online, on radio and in tv, not just a snapshot on that specific time, moment in time, but the totality of call it 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks. We code every single one of those positive, negative, and then we code those deeper. Joy, sadness, anger, disgust, those kind of things. Then we rank and order those for how important they are. Right? So your voice would be a 10 out of 10. Somebody who is like Jane Smith 1234 with one follower on Twitter would be a 1 out of 10.
- [38:54]
C
Right?
- [38:55]
D
So then we take those, and then we have a really robust prompt that we prompt against that data set. So call it 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 different data points. We prompt against those data points that then give you a really concise answer on should you advocate on this issue
- [39:10]
C
is that that's going to be faster than doing a poll.
- [39:14]
D
It's going to be cheaper.
- [39:15]
C
It's going to be cheaper. Is it definitely more accurate? For instance, how do you know who a likely voter is? I know that polling attempt to find likely voters is a flawed process, but they're at least trying. Are you able to figure out if I want only the public sentiment to be measured amongst likely voters, can you do that?
- [39:35]
D
We can approximate for it, but no, we can't.
- [39:37]
C
Right.
- [39:38]
D
Like it's guesswork anyway. And any pollster that can tell you that they can act, that they can just focus on likely voters. The problem isn't necessarily focusing on likely voters. It's actually getting those people on the phone. Right. So I think that's the biggest problem is getting the correct data set. If we're talking about 19. If I could go back in time, into the time of the 1940s, 1950s, where people trusted institutions, where you could talk to your neighbor about politics, where you could tell folks that I voted for Donald Trump and they wouldn't care or you wouldn't get death threats online, where people answered their phones, those kind of. That environment is much better for polling than the fragmented, biased media sphere that we have today. So it's very difficult to get rough, really good answers.
- [40:21]
C
Are you able to say what you're doing for Steve Hilton, running for governor of California? What are you providing for him that a traditional consultant or strategist couldn't do?
- [40:29]
D
So for Steve Hilton, all we're really providing for him in our current partnership is partnering his caldoge initiative. So we're not doing any. Any actual true strategic work for Steve Hilton yet. We're just powering Cal Doge. But for Wesley Hunt in Texas, what we do is we give him full sentiment breakdown, what's working, what messaging is working. And really in Texas is the perfect example, depending on. There was a Houston Hobby poll that just came out that everybody is quoting. The Houston hobby poll was 500 likely voters. It was a general election poll, and it was 250 Republicans, 250 Democrats, I believe, that had Ken Paxton at a 45% chance of winning. Then the day before that or a week before that, there was a poll that came out that had Wesley Hunt tied with Ken Paxton. Then a day after that, there was a poll that came out that had John Cornyn tied with Ken Paxton and Wesley Hunt last. The polls are all over the place and the margin of error on these things are 5 to 6%. We historically back tested our polling strategy in the way that we do things to a few past elections and our margin of error was within 1 to 2%. Just those alone. The jury is out yet for the midterms, but we're quite confident of our methods being better than traditional polling because traditional polling in today's environment is essentially sticking your finger in the air and saying, is it going to rain as you deal.
- [41:56]
C
Again, to hearken back to the themes I talked about in the beginning of the show as you deal with the civilians in your life, family members, friends who don't have AI on the brain, who don't understand it, who don't use it in anything but to do Google searches. What do you, what do you, what's your posture towards them? Are you trying to bring them into the present and future or you just hovering, saying just wait, waiting your waiting them out until they figure it out?
- [42:21]
D
Mark, My wife doesn't even understand what I do. It's so difficult. It's trying, it's trying to explain Latin to someone who has never even seen a Latin word. Right. So it's extremely difficult. There's just so much going on between what traditionally people think of as AI and what the systems that we're actually using. It's like if you were to walk down the street and you would ask a normal person what Palantir does, you probably would get maybe one out of 100 that would actually directly describe to you what exactly Palantir is. They just know that they track people and that they're supposed to be afraid of it, but they don't really understand what they do because it's so difficult to explain.
- [43:04]
C
Yeah. All I know is one thing. Either I'm going to buy your company or you're going to buy mine. We'll see what happens. But I gave some tips in the first segment about how people can adapt to AI. You know, I know maybe you don't welcome all the competition, but give me one or two things you'd recommend people do if they want to, if they want to become part of this tech dog, technological, cultural, social revolution.
- [43:30]
D
Before I answer that question, by the way, I don't think this is a want a yes. And like we buy you or you buy us. I think it's we partner.
- [43:37]
C
Okay. That is that we can do that too.
- [43:39]
D
I think that's where we net out because you there spoke. You have decades of experience and a lot you've forgotten more about this game than we have even learned up to this point that there's value there. And then taking AI and taking our systems and being able to plug in someone like you into those systems, that is where the dynamite is. That is where the pure gold is.
- [44:00]
C
All right, I'll come to Michigan. We'll have dinner. We'll figure it out. All right, now give me just close. I. Just tell me one or two things. We didn't even get into the waste, fraud and abuse stuff that you're doing.
- [44:10]
A
You.
- [44:10]
C
You'll come back, we'll talk about that. But just give me one or two things you tell people, they say, you know what, Jeremy, I saw you on NextUp. I really want to be more modern here. I don't want to be left behind. What are some things you tell them to do?
- [44:23]
D
Just start using it and view these systems, particularly chatbots. Open up ChatGPT, Gemini, whatever you have handy too, view them as natural language computers. What do I mean by natural language computers? Just view them as a system you can ask questions to, you can talk to, and don't be governed by this blank box idea. Just start asking it. You can ask it, hey, Gemini, what should I use you for? Or hey, Gemini, give me some really cool ideas that I could use for my job. Or hey, Gemini, here's what I need to do. Just help me figure things out. Just start using them. And then the more you start using them, the more curious you get and the more questions you can ask. Just start using it. And I think the more you use it, the more you'll understand that these things can really be magical.
- [45:06]
C
Yeah. If people want to follow your work. Do you write? Are you active on social? How can people keep up with you in the company?
- [45:12]
D
Yeah. Yeah. So follow me on Twitter or x now. Jeremy is literally just it. My ads, Jeremy just underscore on Instagram. I'm Jeremy Redder. R H E T O R. Our company website is rhetorhetor AI and follow caldoge for the stuff that we're doing in California. And then we've also got some really cool stuff coming down the pike for hopefully Michigan and some national stuff in la. And some really cool stuff coming down the pike.
- [45:45]
C
Who's got Jeremy with no underscore on Twitter?
- [45:48]
D
I have no idea.
- [45:49]
C
All right, I wish you the best of luck again. I've always appreciated entrepreneurs and small business, but now that I'm doing it myself, I feel for you right there. And the fact that your wife has no clue what you're doing is a Daily challenge for you. I know.
- [46:02]
D
Jeremy.
- [46:02]
C
Jeremy Jones, co founder of Redder AI Again, grateful to you for the time. And I'm cheering you on because you're, you're, you're trying to do something both necessary and impossible at the same time.
- [46:14]
D
Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me.
- [46:15]
C
Thank you. All right, next up, former South Carolina congressman Joe Cunningham joins us along with White House correspondent Natalie Winters. She's also the co host of the War Room with Steve Bannon. Congressman Cunningham, Natalie Winners third. Next up. So here's the truth. Half of all adults have high blood pressure and most people don't feel it until it becomes a real problem. February is American Heart month, and if you've fallen off a few New Year's resolutions, that's okay. This is a simple, measurable way to get back on track and do something meaningful for your heart. Listeners. Get 20% off their entire order@120life.com Just use the code NextUp One simple code, a perfect time to refocus or help someone you care about and take their heart health seriously. Go to 120life.com and use the code NextUp for 20% off. Try it risk free for two weeks and if your blood pressure doesn't improve, you get your money back. Nothing to lose but higher blood pressure numbers. Use the code nextup Today I need
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D
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D
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C
21 All right, next up and joining me now to solve all the world's problems, former Democratic congressman from South Carolina, Joe Cunningham and the co host Steve Bannon's war room, White House reporter Natalie Winters. Welcome to you both. Thank you for being here.
- [48:34]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [48:37]
C
It's very hard to remember life on the national town square before Donald Trump ran for president in 2015. Maybe particularly for you, Natalie, but for all of us. Right. It's just. It's just so. It's just so different.
- [48:48]
B
You call me older than Natalie, Is that what you're saying?
- [48:51]
C
By a hair. By hair, yeah. Yeah. I would card you both. Just for the record, if I was trying to get into my tavern, I would card you both.
- [48:59]
A
That's very ice of you.
- [49:02]
C
Before. Before Donald Trump. It's easy to overstate the changes. Before Donald Trump, the difference between the two parties on national security and foreign policy were kind of fudged up because you had Democrats who were less inclined to use force overseas, you had Republicans less inclined, and you had people in both parties who were different, the neocons and the Republican Party, but you had people like Bill Clinton as a president who was for using force overseas. So it's all a big jumble, and we're seeing it now in sharp relief. A lot of people in MAGA are for no use of force anytime, any place. A lot of people in the Democratic Party seem to have that point of view. So, Natalie, how would you state the Republican position? And maybe. And maybe with nuance, because there is, on the use of American force, what the standard is for using American military force overseas.
- [49:51]
A
Now, you know, I've been trying to answer that myself, and I think you have to unpack that obviously Republican is not a monolithic term. I think you can sort of best understand it. America first in maga, maybe use the term neocon or maybe Republican establishment. I think what President Trump in 2016 really tried to pull the party away from is maybe the differentiating factor. But frankly, in action, I think you're seeing what President Trump is doing is a little more in line with his predecessors. I think where the actual distinction is, is more in the rhetoric, and whether it's rhetoric that you heard on the campaign trail or rhetoric that you hear from President Trump or you see in the tweets. But I also think that you even see it in the national defense strategy. The national security strategy. Right. This idea of prioritizing the Western hemisphere, prioritizing our borders. And I think that would be the sort of primary calculus for how you would determine using. For through at least what the president has put out from a rhetorical and from a substantive policy perspective. But in effect, I'm not exactly sure how Iranian regime change squares with that. So that's where maybe the constellation gets a little confusing. But to me, putting America first is about restraint. It's about prioritizing the homeland and understanding, frankly, the MAGA base, who I think defines it, which is they're tired of forever wars. They don't like seeing American blood and treasure be spilled and soiled in battlefields that are, are much further away than our own border. So I think it's about priorities. But I don't even know how to really answer that in the current landscape,
- [51:21]
C
Congressman, I can't imagine in anytime soon a president of either party putting American forces on the ground or engaging in something that could be called nation building. Am I right? That there's a pretty broad national consensus now? You don't hear anybody in the national town square really saying there should be American troops on the ground in Ukraine or if we're going to, if we're going to go after Iran, there should be American troops on the ground. Is that, is that a firm bipartisan consensus?
- [51:47]
B
Yeah, I think so, Mark. And you know, as you're asking Natalie that question, I expected the same question of the Democratic Party. And I'm sitting here thinking, I don't think either party has a really good strong footing on national, you know, on, on essentially where that red line is and why you would send troops. But I think you're correct. This hesitation, I think isn't, doesn't belong to, exclusively to a political party. I think there's a generational hesitancy, you know, the people in my generation a little ahead of me, a little behind me, who, you know, had colleagues or friends or maybe even family members sent over to Iraq and Afghanistan. And so there is a lot of reservation. I think it would take some very bold aggression towards Americans themselves in order to, you know, change that sentiment from where it is today.
- [52:40]
A
If I could add one, one, I
- [52:43]
C
think maybe two things.
- [52:44]
A
One, where the Trump administration is doing well and what I think sort of means, at least to me, American America first foreign policy. I do think you're seeing the Pentagon try to overhaul a lot of the kind of weapon purchasing orders, FMS processes. I think they're trying to collaborate more with defense tech, which I think is sort of pushing a lot of the conflict or boots on the ground that we're talking about to this sort of weird area where it's not even necessarily kinetic. Right. Sort of what you see with Venezuela, and I'm not just talking because that was done under drug authorities, but you see these sort of more precision strikes that don't even necessitate deploying mass amounts of people. But conversely, I also think that Something that I would argue we're seeing a bit of straying away from, which is, I think, in addition to prioritizing the border here in the United States, I also think that countering the Chinese Communist Party and seeing them as the existential threat that they are is a bedrock not just of the economic policy of President Trump, but of this sort of idea of what calculates, how we calculate deploying strategy or deploying forces, deploying weapons, all that. And I think that that calculus, I think, is sort of being thrown by the wayside when a third of our military assets are being put in the Middle east, when they're being put into CENTCOM and pulled from indopacom. That's something that I. That don't necessarily think falls under at least my understanding of America first foreign policy.
- [54:09]
C
Now, you raised two of the issues I want to talk to you guys about. And one is, is high tech, right? If you can get AI and drones, why do we need boots on the ground? Right. And in every scenario. And so, Congressman, let me ask you about that one. Then I want to ask you both about China. Create a hypothetical. What's a hypothetical? Where a country could do something. You talked about America being challenged. So we put boots on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9, 11, but I don't think that would happen. Now. Can you invent a scenario where a country would do something where the President of the United States, whether it's Donald Trump or AOC or anybody, would send American personnel on the ground? Not Special Ops, but a military mission? Can you. Can you invent a country and what they would do that would cause us to do that?
- [54:54]
B
I mean, a terrorist attack on American soil where over 2000 people lose their lives? I think, yeah, I think there's a very good chance.
- [55:02]
C
Why wouldn't we just. Why wouldn't we just bomb them? Why would. Why would we. Why would we go in?
- [55:07]
B
You know, it's up to military leaders. There are a lot of things that have been done with drones and with AI, but there are still reconnaissance and, you know, things that you need just to have boots on the ground and people on the ground verifying sources, verifying information. You know, I had this discussion with, discussion with Border Patrol a couple years ago when I was down there. And they're, you know, they're talking about using drones and just the verifying, you know, herds or, or people are crossing over, and then they send out personnel or people on horses to find out, you know, it's. It's wild animals or it's, you Know that their intel is bad. So if you're talking about on that scale of damage and the threat would have to be pretty imminent or pretty serious in order to put boots on the ground though.
- [55:53]
C
Okay, but I'll give you a hypothetical. I'm trying, I was trying to look up the name of the country, the fake country in the Marx Brothers movies like Fredonia or whatever it is. Some country sends terrorists, United States kills 2,000 people. Okay. And they're located in, in Eurasia somewhere. I don't think any president today would think the right way to respond is to send the army on the ground. Again, Special ops is different for intel and all that. I think they just bomb them. What would the mission be? Because we're not going to go in there, take over the country and nation build. See what I'm saying? Like it seems off limits.
- [56:30]
B
I get your point that Americans are, have a, have a lot less appetite for democracy building in parts of the world. However, you know, if you're talking about a direct attack on our country and on Americans which can be during. Directly linked back to a government entity, I think that changes the calculus. You gotta remember how, you know, you and I remember this. Natalie was too young. The swell of patriotism that came after 9 11. Bush had a 92% approval rating because there was this common enemy. If it's rogue agents or rogue actors that aren't directly linked to a country, I think it's different. As opposed to a government sponsored terrorists.
- [57:12]
C
Right, but, but, but just take, forget the hypothetical. Turn the clock back. 911 happens. President Bush, I think today because of public opinion not just within the Republican Party but broadly would say go go bomb, go bomb Afghanistan. Go, go bomb Baghdad. Don't, don't send ground forces. And what's their, what's their mission?
- [57:33]
B
We should have known that then though Mark, because of Russia's failure and other failures, of course, and Afghanistan, you know, you would think but you know, we don't have the best students of history in government and politics. And so yeah, you know, except for,
- [57:50]
C
except for rescuing hostages, I just. American hostages. I just don't see a president anytime soon saying we're going to put thousands, tens of thousands.
- [57:58]
B
The bar is definitely higher. Yeah, I agree there, Natalie.
- [58:02]
C
China, there was a period after there's a famous photo of Brent Scowcroft, President Bush 41's National Security Advisor, toasting with the Chinese in Beijing, you know, with champagne. And that photo showed up in a lot of Democratic ads. This is, you know, early 90s saying, you know, you shouldn't be, you know, celebrating with the ChiCom. Then we went through this period where the Democrats in particular were really reluctant to be seen talking kindly to the Chinese. And every time Joe Biden said, oh, I'm friends with Xi, we used to go to Iowa together. A lot of Democrats cringe. Donald Trump talks about Xi all the time as his friend. He, he's planning very warm summits with him this year. Natalie, what is the again, just talk about MAGA for a minute. Why is MAGA not saying how are you? Mr. President, if you want to be true to America, first stop palling around with the chicom.
- [58:58]
A
I mean, tell me about it. This is a question I've been asking myself. And you know, I think even to link this to what you were talking about before even I think this kind of military adventurism in all these countries, whether it's Venezuela or the previous Iran strikes, you know, both of those countries use Chinese air defense systems. And we basically revealed that we have the ability to, you know, conveniently turn those off and fly very stealthily into these countries, into these regions. That's the same air defense system that, you know, China uses in their own country, which I think is very relevant when it comes to the actual potentially maybe kinetic flashpoint. Though I do think the PRC always prefers the gray zone hybrid sort of unrestricted warfare tactics. Of course, when it comes to Taiwan, you know, I think if you follow unfortunately the donors special interests, I think the fact that MAGA has become a very big tent movement, right. A lot of big tech interests, which it's no secret that they just care about market access and profit. And I don't think that their understanding of the Chinese Communist Party is the same as true maga. In the same way that I think you saw that space bat about H1B visas and what it means to be an American citizen, I don't really think that they view America as a country that needs to be defended against, against Chinese Communist Party, you know, economic warfare, which is what it is, they're okay with inviting the PRC and if they can just make more, more profit. But I do think, Mark, the, the other key point here, even if President Trump wanted to take the very harsh approach that he did in Trump won at least prior to COVID 19, he doesn't have that luxury. Right. When you look at the rare earth and critical mineral shortages, not just because post Covid, right. Essentially under Biden, China launched a full scale assault to industrially build up and take over, at least from a state owned perspective, Rare Earths, not just the actual procurement of these rare earths, but the processing of it. Right. They own upwards of 90%. It's a very large monopoly and we've seen them really use that like President Trump calls the nuclear option. So even if we want to do all these things on trade and Taiwan and send them weapons, which as we saw very recently were just basically canceled because apparently now we ask our enemies what kind of weapons we can send to Taiwan. The rare earths, I think, are a very strong cudgel that the PRC has that weren't as sharp last time around. So I think that's also a big shifter of dynamics.
- [61:19]
D
Joe.
- [61:19]
C
There's a contrast between President Trump's warm rhetoric about Xi and the Chinese to one of the very few bipartisan things on Capitol Hill today. There's a bipartisan anti China group of Democrat and Republican co chairs. Ro Khanna just took over for the Democrats. They're, they're extremely, their, their press releases read like something from the Cold War. They're extremely hostile to China. They're extremely concerned about the existential threat from China. How do those two coexist? You've got this bipartisan.
- [61:51]
B
I mean, I hope, I would hope with President Trump it'd be something along the old edge of, you know, keep your friends close but your enemies closer. Yeah, you know, the, it is a long, it's been a long run sentiment that China is, is the largest threat to the United States of America long term. They've been building up, building up their Navy, building up their forces, their army. I mean, that is, is the long term threat. And so keep an eye on that ball. I think is, is very prudent and it just seems that, you know, more politicians may have a different way of dealing with it, whether it be, you know, out in the open or in the back rooms. But acknowledging the threat that they pose long term to the safety and security of the United States, I think is paramount.
- [62:39]
C
Yeah, I don't want to overstate President Trump's posture. He certainly is wary of the Chinese. They certainly are not giving away the store. But just the, this, the prospect of a friendly summit not that long ago would have been unthinkable. Joe Biden wouldn't have, wouldn't have done that and let cameras in the room because he would have taken heat from, from people in his own party in the right. I want to sneak in one topic because we're talking a lot about AI this episode. The AI outfits are in the politics business now and they're giving, they're starting to give tens of millions of dollars, Metta is giving, they just announced millions of dollars to candidates who will be favorable towards looser regulation of AI. And I suspect between now and November they'll just keep putting money in because for them it's a tiny bit of money to try to get candidates who are for what they're for. I'm not a big believer in restricting money in politics. I just think it's both unconstitutional and impossible. But Congressman, if you're a citizen, should you be wary of these massive companies spending massive amounts of money in this campaign? Is that something the public should be concerned about?
- [63:41]
B
Yeah, a thousand percent. I think the public should be very concerned with, you know, the, the threats AI, but particularly social media, has against our most vulnerable in society, our children. So I've been following, you know, the cases out in California actually have a case where a client of mine was a victim of sextortion. What these companies are doing, I think there's, there's a reckoning that's coming in the future. And I think they, they realize it and they, they realize that the only way to try to thwart that is try to play in politics and donate huge sums of cash. But, you know, the impact social media has had on our children and this next generation and the, you know, unlimited impacts that AI might have has probably pushed them off the sidelines and into politics in order to protect their own interest.
- [64:32]
C
Natalie, you know, I like to analyze MAGA in the sort of crudest and most superficial terms. On the one hand, you've got a love of free markets and a love of, of, of low regulation and American exceptionalism in business, and we're number one in the world in AI. On the other hand, MAGA doesn't like corporate or any special interests trying to use money to influence public policy. So MAGA seems to me, and Steve Sachs or David Sachs seems wide open on this and totally no one's in the administration is going to care. But do you think anybody in MAGA cares that you're going to see corporate interests with totally self interest? We want a certain public policy outcome, so we're going to make sure people who agree with us get elected. Will that cause any alarm in maga?
- [65:15]
A
Well, of course, and I think to even start back at square one, I don't think AI is overwhelmingly popular among the MAGA base and I think they're sort of smeared as maybe Luddites for not embracing this new technology. But I think they have a lot of valid questions. I think, you see it Flare up and you know, like the, the topics that, you know, Joe is talking about, whether it's social media or these sort of, you know, one off cases where something really horrible happens. But I think what you're talking about is sort of the changing of the fabric of life as we know it, the potential for being replaced by robots. They always seem to use this stuff to push, you know, more immigration and bringing in a bunch of tech workers. So I don't think the MAGA base is sold on this at all. I think it's one of the other sort of friction points that I think you're seeing the original diehard MAGA base, more kind of the boomer demographic not really embracing this. But of course, as you know, it's a tale as old as time, these companies pouring, pouring money in. But I'm really curious what exactly the regulation it is that, that they're, that they're targeting, what they want to kind of open up because it seems like they've enjoyed a pretty wide Runway thus far, at least from, from the White House. I think they've demonstrated that they're very pro AI, you know, whatever it means, it's such a monolithic term. But what exactly it is they're seeking,
- [66:32]
B
Mark there, I was just going to say, add that their issues don't seem to be dominated by a specific party. It seems to be garnering some Democrats and some Republicans as relates to either regulation of AI or holding these social media companies accountable for the damage they're doing.
- [66:50]
C
Yeah, it seems like they're going to hedge their bets in part because a lot of corporate interests do in general and because while the Republicans seem more open to unfettered development of AI, Democrats may be in the majority, certainly in the House and maybe even now in the Senate. And so they don't want to be giving all their money to Republicans and then have to deal with the next Congress where it's controlled by Democrats.
- [67:13]
A
They want a government bailout too. I think if you look at the models, right, the financing, what their projected valuations are, even Sam Altman is on the record how long ago saying they want taxpayers to subsidize it. So I think part of it is the regulation aspect, but I think part of it's fiscal too.
- [67:28]
C
100. 100% agree. Two closing questions for you both on AI. First, between now and the 2028 presidential election, which party will, will do a better job of benefiting from AI, both as a receiver of campaign contributions, but also using the technology to help them win elections? Democrats, Republicans, Are too soon to say slash. No. Neither party will have an advantage.
- [67:50]
B
Joe, should I put it in chat GPT and see what it says? Mark?
- [67:53]
C
I'd be interested to know it's a good idea while you guys answer. I'll do that.
- [67:58]
B
I can't say, I can't say which party would be more beneficial. My gut tells me Republicans will benefit more from campaign contributions if more Democrats are vocal about restrictions, especially as it relates to social media accounts for, for young adults or I mean, young teenagers and young kids. My gut seems to tell me it would be Republicans because of historically the, you know, lack of regulation.
- [68:29]
C
Do you think, do you think the Democrats have a better chance to use it better as a campaign tool for.
- [68:34]
B
I think this, this is a huge kitchen table issue and I think that anybody who's not, you know, the, the social media ban I think is a no brainer. I'm glad, you know, it's all Rama manual came out for it. I think that for parents who are trying to raise kids in this, this age right now, the biggest threats that, you know, that kids are facing right now are not on playgrounds and they're not on street corners. They're back in their bedrooms, on their tablets and on their iPhones. It's a new, it's a new day. It's a new age. And the politicians who quickly put their finger on the pulse, I think are going to control the narrative and be decisive in elections.
- [69:08]
C
Yeah. So, Natalie, I guess the congressman's right. There's really at least three dimensions here for the parties. One is campaign contributions, one is how they use it as a campaign tool, and the third is how they talk about it as an issue. So if you put all those in the blender, do you think either party between now and 2028 is poised to have an advantage because of the use of AI?
- [69:26]
A
I think Republicans will definitely get more cash. But I do think the Democrats are already sort of integrating AI into a lot of their protest infrastructure. I was actually just working on a story about how they're using it to sort of train protesters, distribute information and materials. So I think that's a very interesting and like very rapidly developing nexus between AI and on the street activism. I also think that the social media game, I think they're always better at organizing than us. I also think too that the AI has always has been the backbone for a lot of. It's this concept of social listening where a lot of these social media platforms use it to gather trends and to see what people are talking about. Historically, it's been used for censorship programs, government funded ones. But I do think that you have the potential to see AI be able to sort of widely scale the ability to really target voters. And in my opinion, maybe I'm just biased, but I do think Democrats are better at doing that.
- [70:25]
C
Yeah. I'm so curious to know how Charlie Kirk would be using AI right now and what he thought of it because obviously he was always interested in the next big thing. Lastly, 20 years from now, Natalie, will we say about America's kids that AI made them better off or worse off 20 years from now? Would you guess?
- [70:44]
A
Well, I think it depends how the AI race shapes up with China. That's why I would not want to send the H200 chips over there. I think if our AI systems, I think if they're regulated well, I think it's too soon to tell. I think they would give us a leg up. I don't think we want to be a country that's not using AI if other countries are. But on the other hand, I think it sort of reshapes what it means to be a human as we know it. These sort of neuralink, cyborg things. So who knows what, what childhood will even be then.
- [71:11]
C
Congressman, are you bearish or bullish on America's AI future?
- [71:16]
B
I think there'll be some growing pains in the beginning, but who has it said that America always does the right thing after a stride? Everything else, I, I think, you know, we'll go, you know, we'll find our footing and there'll be some growing pains, but eventually we'll get it right. You know, it harkens back to, you know, the invention of the Internet, which was supposed to be the, the doomsday for traditional learning and kids and they wouldn't learn anything anymore. But, you know, we kind of adapt. You know, we, we always adapt. And the important thing is to put the guardrails in place to protect our most vulnerable.
- [71:48]
C
I think according to AI, that quote about America always doing the right thing, in the end, it's either Winston Churchill or Winnie the Pooh. Could be you. Very grateful to you both, Natalie and Congressman, I'm really grateful to have you on. Wonderful conversation and just inside joke. Neither of you gets a pinata, but you both did great. Thank you for being here. All right, that's it for today's program. We'll be back here. I'll be in the chair on Tuesday, a brand new episode of NextUp. If you're at this weekend, you're spending time with your friends your family. Don't be shy. Tell them that you'd like them to become a next or two. And tell them how they can join our community, invite them so they can keep growing our conversation here and of course, growing our numbers. We're in a business here. Make sure you're subscribed to NextUp on YouTube everywhere you get your podcast new content coming outside the four episodes, two episodes a week, and we'd love you to be able to enjoy it all in a timely fashion so you always know what's coming. Next up.
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