Journalistic Corruption Continues with "Original Sin" Tour, and Charlie Kirk on What MAGA Wants Next

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next Up with Mark Halperin
Episode Title: Journalistic Corruption Continues with "Original Sin" Tour, and Charlie Kirk on What MAGA Wants Next
Release Date: May 15, 2025
Host: Mark Halperin
Guests: Charlie Kirk (Turning Point USA), Megan McCain

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1. Introduction and Podcast Milestone

Mark Halperin opens the episode by expressing gratitude to the listeners, noting that "Next Up with Mark Halperin" has quickly become the number four top new podcast according to the Associated Press and Apple, and the top new podcast in the news category. He highlights the show's availability on YouTube and various podcast platforms, emphasizing its growing popularity.

2. Main Segment: Media's Handling of Joe Biden's Cognitive Decline

a. Critique of Media Credibility

Mark Halperin launches into a critical discussion about the media's handling of President Joe Biden's cognitive decline. He asserts that the media's lack of credibility, particularly among Democrats and mainstream institutions, hampers accountability for figures like Donald Trump. Halperin emphasizes the need for media reflection and accountability to restore trust.

Notable Quote:

Mark Halperin ([04:45]): "The media, my colleagues in the media, and that's the Democratic Party. Every one of you should want those two institutions to have credibility, even if you don't like the Democrats."

b. Focus on Jake Tapper and His Book

Halperin delves into Jake Tapper’s recent book, which addresses Biden's cognitive issues. He criticizes Tapper for initially downplaying the severity of Biden's decline and later attempting to salvage credibility by praising the Wall Street Journal reporters who covered the story. Halperin argues that Tapper's actions reflect broader media corruption and a failure to hold power accountable.

Notable Quotes:

Mark Halperin ([10:16]): "I think some of the criticism is fair, to be honest of me, certainly I'm not going to speak for anybody else. But knowing then what I know now, I look back at my coverage during the Biden years and I did cover some of these issues, but not enough."
Jake Tapper ([10:16]): "I think some of the criticism is fair, to be honest of me..."

Mark Halperin ([12:16]): "So that's Jake Tapper talking about this Wall Street Journal story now, saying that it was a disgrace the way Democrats tried to smear the Wall Street Journal reporters."

c. Media Failure and Institutional Bias

Halperin expands on the notion that both the media and the Democratic Party have failed to maintain credibility, leading to a "circle of blame." He emphasizes that without credible media and accountability from political institutions, holding Trump accountable remains challenging.

Notable Quote:

Mark Halperin ([19:40]): "Read anything. New York Times, Washington Post, Watch cable news on the liberal networks. They're not talking with accountability about the press's failure."

3. Conversation with Megan McCain

a. Megan McCain’s Perspective on Jake Tapper and Media Bias

Megan McCain shares her long-standing relationship with Jake Tapper and her disillusionment with his journalistic integrity. She criticizes Tapper for co-authoring the book on Biden’s cognitive decline, labeling it as "journalistic malfeasance." McCain expresses frustration over how mainstream media figures protect their own narratives, undermining efforts to expose Biden's issues.

Notable Quotes:

Megan McCain ([23:35]): "I just can't really have a relationship of any kind with this person just because I don't feel like any of it is genuine or altruistic."
Megan McCain ([27:17]): "I was really shocked by the experience because it was so ugly and bizarre."

b. Personal Experiences with the Bidens

McCain recounts her family's interactions with the Biden family, highlighting tensions that arose when she refused to endorse Joe Biden due to her Republican stance. She details how Biden’s staff ostracized her, reflecting deeper issues within the Biden administration's handling of dissent.

Notable Quote:

Megan McCain ([34:23]): "We had a very nice relationship... until politics got involved. And then they sort of circled back around when my dad got sick."

c. Recommendations for Media Reform

McCain advises media institutions like The New York Times to undertake rigorous internal reviews to address biases and enforce accountability. She stresses the importance of hiring diverse voices to better represent the country and restore trust in media outlets.

Notable Quote:

Megan McCain ([30:55]): "They need to hire some legitimately conservative leaning people to write their opinion columns... and really take a reflection on the journalists who work in your newsroom."

4. Interview with Charlie Kirk

a. Reflection on Broadcasting Techniques Inspired by Rush Limbaugh

Charlie Kirk discusses his broadcasting style, drawing inspiration from the legendary radio host Rush Limbaugh. He highlights the importance of silence, audience engagement, and authenticity in creating compelling content.

Notable Quotes:

Charlie Kirk ([45:05]): "Silence creates drama and tension, excitement and reflectiveness."
Mark Halperin ([45:05]): "That's pausing. Incredible."

b. MAGA Movement and Current Policy Focus

Kirk addresses the current status of the MAGA movement, particularly in the context of the President's reconciliation bill. He outlines key areas of support and contention among the conservative base, including tax policies, defense spending, and immigration control.

Notable Quotes:

Charlie Kirk ([49:32]): "I scan them again, I don't respond to them all, but when I say, hey, email me freedom..."

Charlie Kirk ([54:05]): "I think we need to cut a lot of spending in all departments and all domains."

c. Planned Parenthood Funding Debate

The conversation shifts to the topic of defunding Planned Parenthood. Kirk argues for reallocating funds to other community health centers that do not perform abortions, emphasizing the need to maintain essential services like contraception and STD testing without supporting an organization he opposes ideologically.

Notable Quotes:

Charlie Kirk ([61:12]): "There are 15,000 pregnancy crisis centers that do mammograms, STD testing, and free gynecology visits."
Mark Halperin ([61:27]): "They could find another place before shutting down services."

d. Historical Insights on Past Presidents

Kirk shares his admiration for Bill Clinton’s fiscal policies, particularly the balanced budget achieved during his administration, and critiques Barack Obama’s cautious approach to executive orders and racial politics.

Notable Quotes:

Charlie Kirk ([65:28]): "Bill Clinton balanced the budget and waged war on welfare reform, crime, and the death penalty."
Charlie Kirk ([68:05]): "Bill Clinton was a far better fiscal steward of the country than some Republicans over the last 20 years."

5. Thought Bubbles and Rapid Round

In a playful segment, Mark and Charlie engage in "thought bubbles," where they present hypothetical scenarios and respond with humorous or insightful reflections. This segment adds a light-hearted element to the podcast, showcasing the hosts' personalities and rapport.

Examples of Thought Bubbles:

• Mark: "Charlie, thought bubble. Marco Rubio wants to be president."
  Charlie: "I prefer J.D. Vance, but Marco's great."

• Mark: "Jeanine Pirro, U.S. attorney. Thought bubble."
  Charlie: "Phenomenal friend. And far more qualified than the media realizes or is covered."

6. Closing Remarks

Mark Halperin wraps up the episode by thanking Charlie Kirk and Megan McCain for their insights and contributions. He reiterates the importance of media accountability and maintaining credible institutions to ensure balanced political discourse.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Next Up with Mark Halperin" delves deep into the alleged media corruption surrounding the coverage of President Joe Biden's cognitive health. Through incisive discussions with Megan McCain and Charlie Kirk, Halperin highlights the need for media reform and accountability to uphold democratic principles. The episode combines serious political analysis with lighter, engaging segments, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current political landscape and the challenges facing media integrity.

Listeners who missed the episode can catch up on YouTube or their preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Mark Halpern]

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[Mark Halpern]

Greetings everybody. Welcome back to what Is Next. I'm Mark Halpern, editor in chief of two Way, and so happy to have you here. We're happy and grateful. We're a new program and we're off to a pretty quick start because of you, those of you who've listened previously or watched previously. We're now the number four top podcast new podcast on the according to the Associated Press and Apple. And we're the top new news in the news category. And again, we couldn't be more grateful to you as we start out here, so thank you for being part of it. And again, you can watch us on YouTube and you can listen to us wherever you get your podcasts, as they say today. Also grateful to have Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA here to join us to talk about everything MAGA and what's going on in the country. Great guy. Appear on his program regularly and he's returning the favor today. And Megan McCain will be here and Megan and I, our colleagues at two Way. Megan has a great interest in the topic we're going to spend some of our time talking about today, which is this issue of Joe Biden's Cognitive Decline and how that story was allowed to play out the way it did. Megan has known the Biden family for years, and she knows Jake Tapper, the reporter who's one of the two who wrote the new book that's being discussed elsewhere in here. She knows them both well, and she's got strong feelings about it. So Megan will be here to talk about that. We're going to talk about Joe Biden and this issue of cognitive decline. And I know a lot of people are going to say, why not talk about Donald Trump and all the controversies involving Donald Trump? Those are important and interesting, too, and they're discussed elsewhere. And I'll continue to hold the Trump administration accountable and to cover that. But the reason why I'm continuing to talk about this story about Joe Biden is because there's no way to hold Donald Trump accountable if two institutions in this country aren't capable of doing it because they don't have the credibility. That's the media, my colleagues in the media, and that's the Democratic Party. Every one of you should want those two institutions to have credibility, even if you don't like the Democrats. And we know that those two organizations don't have credibility. That's true for a lot of reasons, with a lot of people. The media, it's probably at an all time low in terms of lack of credibility. And there's a new Associated Press poll out this week that shows people not particularly optimistic, including Democrats, about the future of that party. Democrats don't have no credibility, but they don't have enough. And that's part of why Donald Trump is not held accountable the way he should be. And so now's the time, with this new book coming out next week, to use it as an opportunity not to engage in whitewashes, not to engage in the same kind of lack of truth that existed during this entire saga of the question of Joe Biden's cognitive decline. Now is the time to get people in my business to recognize there's a credibility problem and for Democrats to do it also. The reason I spend so much time talking about this is I care about the media, and I want there to be two strong political parties in the country, and most of the people trying to hold the media accountable for the biggest media scandal in American history, as I call it, are on the right. Jason Miller, who works for President Trump, he tweets about this all the time. He highlights the lack of credibility on this issue. There are other people on the right who do it. That's not good enough. Okay. Byron York, very smart guy, writes for the conservative Washington Examiner. He wrote this morning in his newsletter on this issue of the presses dealing with their failures on Joe Biden's cognitive decline. Understanding the press's handling of then President Joe Biden's obvious physical and mental infirmity is probably more a matter for psychologists than for media and analysts. There's some truth to that because understanding why the media not only failed before but continues to fail, I think does involve a lot about human nature and psychology. I'm no expert in those areas, but I do know a fair amount about the media. So we'll talk about that. Eric Erickson, another person on the right, he wrote in his newsletter, now that Joe Biden has lost, the truth can be told, except for the part of the press's own complicity in the COVID up. I couldn't agree more. The people in the media now who are writing about this book are ignoring the media's own role in it. And that's a vital part of what happened and it's extremely important. Eric writes, also had Joe Biden somehow gotten reelected, the press would right now still deny his decline. I think that's true. It's an incredible statement, but I think it's true. And if Fox News had treated a Republican president's decline the way MSNBC treated Biden's cnn, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Brian Stelter who writes for CNN about the media, and Oliver Darcy who writes his own media newsletter and the rest of the media's appointed accountability voices would demand accountability. But the press will give MSNBC a pass because progressives will protect progressives. That's the view on the right, that the media is still covering up their failures in exposing what was obviously true to the tens of millions of people in the country because they wanted to protect, as my psychologist had, they wanted to protect Joe Biden because they didn't want to help Donald Trump win and because they are just in general biased towards Democrats and in part because they were threatened by the Biden White House and the Biden campaign that they shouldn't write about this or talk about it. Okay? The press is failing again. They failed on this story. They fail on a lot of stories related to Donald Trump too. But I'm talking about this one because right now it's an opportunity that's being missed. Read anything. New York Times, Washington Post, Watch cable news on the liberal networks. They're not talking with accountability about the press's failure. What's happening now is not just a failure of Jake Tapper. We'll talk about Jake Tapper, because he wrote the book or co wrote the book, but he's representative of the entire mindset of my colleagues, which is to blame Joe Biden for what happened and to blame other Democrats for not speaking out. There's a few Democrats like Ro Khanna, a congressman from California who's being honest and saying, look, I didn't see a lot of in private Joe Biden the decline, but it was obvious and the party should have asked him, insisted that he step down and not be the candidate earlier than they did. But he's a pretty rare exception. So you've got the Democrats or the media rather blaming Joe Biden and the Democrats for being silent. And you've got the Democrats, the elected officials for the most part blaming Joe Biden. He shouldn't have run, he shouldn't have covered up what he his decline. And then you've got the Biden team blaming the press and the Democrats. Right. So it's a circle of blame. And I know it's human nature when you're, when you've done something wrong or you're being accused of doing something wrong, what a lot of people do is rather than say, you know what, let me be introspective, let me think, is this true? Maybe I need to do a hard thing and admit not just a single failure, but years of systematic failure. But human nature for a lot of people is let me blame someone else. So the press blames the Democrats and Biden, the Democrat office holders blame Biden and Biden blames the press and the Democrats. When you're blaming others, you're not being reflective. What I'm asking now is for Democrats to be reflective. But more so I'm asking people in my profession, or maybe as much people in my reflect my profession need to be reflective. Okay, so let's talk about Jake Capper. Jake Capper's position and his publisher's position up until this week was Jake was one of the hard charging reporters who tried to get to the bottom of what Of Biden's mental acuity decline. Okay, now we talked in the previous episode about the ways it was easy to illustrate that that wasn't true. He didn't never bring up the topic, but it's clear he was not amongst those determined to get to the bottom of it. The irony is his co author, Alex Thompson is one of the few reporters who tried to get the bottom of. Seems like Jake Capper and his PR operation decided that was not a sustainable position because the public record was so clear. And again, I'M singling out Jake Tapper. I could, I could point you to the same kind of narrative about almost anyone who covered the White House for the New York Times or the Washington Post, other reporters for cnn. But the reason we're focusing on Jake Tapper is because Jake Tapper has put out a book purporting to hold Biden accountable and tell the full story of the COVID up. So this week, apparently he decided, well, maybe he wasn't as hard charging in trying to, in trying to tell the public about Joe Biden's loss of mental acuity as he claimed to be. So he's got a new strategy. It's a two part strategy and it's not a strategy about accountability, which is what the press needs. The first part of the strategy, okay, is to go from saying I was on the front lines of exposing all this to maybe I could have done better. Here's Jake Tapper on CNN Wednesday morning announcing his new position that he could have done better.

[Jake Tapper]

I think some of the criticism is fair, to be honest of me, certainly I'm not going to speak for anybody else. But knowing then what I know now, I look back at my coverage during the Biden years and I did cover some of these issues, but not enough. I look back on it with humility.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay, now here's a second change in Tapper strategy. He's going to cling to, to people who did try to hold Joe Biden accountable. One is his co author Alex Thompson, who again did, one of the few who had professional risk and, and criticism from the Biden folks did so then he decides I'm going to cling to the folks who did good. The Wall Street Journal wrote one of the few stories during the campaign about Joe Biden's mental decline. I, I'm not criticizing the story because at least they tried to write the story. It's hilarious though, the way that story's been built up as some extraordinary effort. It was pretty weak tea, to tell you the truth. It quoted mostly Republicans, not Democrats. And the examples I didn't think were that great compared to what I know and what we could see with our own eyes. So the story should not be criticized. But Jake Tapper also this week as part of his change in strategy, decided he was going to cling to these Wall Street Journal reporters. And he clung them so hard he called them heroes.

[Jake Tapper]

They're with me now. Two of the heroic reporters were covering this intensely during the Biden years, Annie Linsky and Siobhan Hughes. They are with the Wall Street Journal. They reported on the decline of Biden's mental acuity back in June of last year. The piece then, quote, behind closed doors, Biden shows signs of slipping. Participants in meetings said the 81 year old President performed poorly at times. The White House said Biden is sharp and his critics are playing partisan politics, unquote. This is not the first time you guys have been on. I said it last year before the election, and I'll say it again, the journalism you did was vital. And the smear campaign by Democrats against you two is disgraceful.

[Mark Halpern]

So that's Jake Capper talking about this Wall Street Journal story now, saying that it was a disgrace the way Democrats tried to smear the Wall Street Journal reporters. And he's right about that. There were plenty of Democrats, including ones at senior levels, who knew full well that Joe Biden was vincing mental acuity decline, who attacked the Wall Street Journal story and the reporters and said it was not well reported, it didn't match with their, their experience with Joe Biden. Again, it's like through the looking glass for me because no one could take their denial seriously. You didn't need to have private meetings with Joe Biden to see his mental acuity decline. It was on offer many days. He had good days and bad days. So the decline was not as bad as some people said it was, but it was obvious. And it was also obvious from his limited schedule, his failure to do regular press conferences or talk to reporters. So Jake Tapper now says this Wall Street Journal story is amazing. These reporters were heroes. Okay, that's not what he said when the story came out. Okay. Their story came out in June of 2024 before the debate. And instead of saying they were heroic back then, what did Jake Tapper do in response to that story? He brought on Chris Coons, Senator from Delaware, one of Joe Biden's strongest allies in Congress. And he allowed Chris Coons, virtually unchallenged, to attack the Journal story.

[Jake Tapper]

So the Journal states it was based on interviews with 45 people over months that were either in meetings or briefed on meetings with President Biden. They do note in the article that most of the criticism comes from Republicans, but not all of it. They said that some of the criticism was from Democrats, although they said it, you know, on background or off the record. Have you heard any concerns from anyone who has met with President Biden about him seeming a little slower? No, none.

[Chris Coons]

If your core question is, is President Biden up to the job? Absolutely. Have I heard from some of my colleagues concerns about the character difference between him and Donald Trump. Absolutely. Have I heard concerns about what Donald Trump would do if he were president compared to what Joe Biden has done and would do if reelected? Absolutely. And I don't hear a lot of coverage of the ways in which former President Trump makes very similar slips, mistakes, mishaps, fails to grasp who he's talking to or where he is. There's been a relentless focus in some news outlets on minor slips by our president that I frankly think are typical of anyone who's keeping a demanding 14 hour a day schedule.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay, so again, it's, you got to give your guest an opportunity to say what he or she wants to say. But if you're someone who really shared the point of view of the heroic Wall Street Journal reporters, I would say you push back a lot harder than that. You don't accept the standard Democratic Biden spin of his mental acuity. You don't accept an attack on the heroes. It's not what he did. Okay, so he, he decided in the wake of their story not to have them on. Now maybe he tried and they refused, but his, his, his prem. Not to have a Republican on to say, well, yeah, that's, that's true. That's what we see. Not to have voters on who believed, whether they were Democrats or not, that Joe Biden suffered mental acuity. His decision back then was to have on one of the President's big, President Biden's biggest defenders and let them let him just, you know, say the story is not true. Okay? Now he's trying to sell the book right now. His goal is to say, you can, you can trust me as someone credible to explain the full dimensions of the COVID up of Joe Biden's cognitive decline. Because now that it's safe to book these Wall Street Journal reporters, I'm going to book them on and say they're heroes. Okay, so he has them on the show this week, but he also had them on in July, several days after the debate, after everybody in the country could not turn their eyes away and understood what happened. So doesn't have them on when the story comes out, has on a Biden critic, and then treats their story more seriously after the press decided to turn and say, well, Joe Biden's no longer useful to us. We'll turn to Kamala Harris to try to beat Donald Trump. Okay, so there's, there's a, there's a credibility issue. Okay. Jay Tapper is fawning over these Wall Street Journal reporters, acknowledging he should have done more to try to have the credibility to sell his book so people won't laugh at the notion that someone who was uninterested, patently uninterested in getting to the bottom of Joe Biden's mental acuity decline to this day, patently uninterested in holding his own network accountable and himself accountable. He says, well, I could have done better. That's a throwaway line. And again, I'd say this about other reporters. At least Jake Cappers now said he could have done better. Where's the New York Times saying that about this story? This story matters for credibility. We had a commander in chief with severe mental acuity decline. No access to his doctor, no access to interview him about his health. And the press just let it happen because they didn't want to help Donald Trump win. Okay, so you can say over and over, you know, like, trust, trust me, I should have done better. Trust me, I'm embracing these Wall Street Journal reporters. But seriously, seriously, that is not full accountability. That is not explaining the failure. And then you've got at CNN this guy, Brian Stelter, who's their media reporter, who's an ally of Jake Tapper, to protect Tapper's image, to enhance Tapper's image, he's got a media newsletter he's supposed to cover. The media guy doesn't write about the biggest failure in the history of American media. Instead, he writes about how great Tapper's book is. And today in his newsletter, Guy Guy's a fan of irony. He writes about how. So it was so important for Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson to have the truth in their book, the full truth, that they hired the head of the New Yorker's fact checking department to fact check their book. Okay, again, the job of a media reporter, I would think is not to protect and promote his colleague. And this is no, this is no innocent here. Brian Stelter. In addition to promoting and protecting Jake Tapper, Brian Stelter has been one of the, has been over the course of the entire Biden presidency, one of the biggest critics of those on the right and those few people like me in the independent media who have tried to hold, who tried to hold Joe Biden accountable. He's, he's accused us of, you know, being propagandist of, of, of celebrating cheap fakes and deep fakes. I don't understand. Someone whose job it is to hold the media accountable, to not hold not just his own network, but every news organization in the country who now it's clear, participated in a cover up some because of threats, some because of a desire to help Joe Biden win massive cover up. And instead of pointing out the flaws in the book, he writes favorable. He cites the favorable reviews the book has gotten from news organizations like the Washington Post and the New York Times who participated in the COVID up and whose failure was manifest. He cites the favorable reviews and then the Twitter account for the book tweets out Brian Stelter's citations. It's just nothing short of journalism journalistic corruption and it's missing the moment. The moment now for the Democratic Party is to acknowledge that of course we all saw with our own eyes, not in private meetings on C Span, the private, the public manifestations of Joe Biden's decline. We all watched as the media, not the conservative media, but what I call the dominant media, simply pretend it wasn't happening, attack those who pointed it out. And now everybody in the media say, well, we don't need to acknowledge our own failure. We'll just say Joe Biden shouldn't have run and people like Chuck Schumer should have called him out. It's a big failure and it's missing the moment. Okay, it's missing the moment. We'll keep watching it. Book comes out next week, we're gonna take a little bit of break, come back and my colleague at Two Way, Megan McCain will be here and we'll talk more about the Jake Tapper Alex Thompson book and Joe Biden in the Democratic Party after this brief break.

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[Mark Halpern]

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[Megan McCain]

Oh my gosh. Thank you, Mark. I'm so excited to join you. Congratulations on this new show. And this is one of my favorite top topics, but I feel like I've been living it with you in real time for like over a year and a half, two years now.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, you're, you're in a, you're in a unique, not, maybe not unique, but unusual. You and your family have a long history with the Bidens. And, and you and I have talked many times about how he shouldn't have run in 19 and shouldn't have run in 24. And so the whole thing is, is, is, is skewed by that. But in addition, you, you talk to a lot of normal people. It's one of the strengths of you, you as a commentator. And you and I know many, many people who saw the decline. And so that's the outside story, that's the public story. But you also know Jake Tapper and I know you've got strong feelings about, about his putting his name on this book. So let's start there since that's where I ended my, my monologue. What, what's your view of, of Jake Tapper's credibility in writing a book about exposing the COVID up of what happened with Joe Biden's mental acuity decline?

[Megan McCain]

So I've known Jake Capper since I was a little girl. He worked on my dad's first or he covered my dad's first campaign when he was to just, like, really date in 1999, 2000. So I have been around him a really long time, and I used to really think he was a straightforward journalist. And then in the past, I think, beginning of Trump era, maybe even a little bit before that, I just really put him in the basket of being a really biased, quite frankly, hack journalist that my conservative friends not only wouldn't trust, but felt like he would intentionally go out of the way to paint a negative picture of conservatives. It's hard, as you know, when you, like, know people in this industry and you want to maintain friendships. But he's one of those people where, for me, it. It took a point where I was like, I just can't really have a relationship of any kind with this person just because I don't feel like any of it is genuine or altruistic. And also, I don't like being a source for people that I'm not genuinely close with and feel like there's trust there. Um, so when I found out he was writing this book, I really like Alex Thompson. I had interviewed Alex Thompson several times when he came out about his reporting about Joe Biden, when. Right before the debate and when everyone started really realizing how bad it was. And I was really looking forward to Alex Thompson's book. And I. When I saw that Jake Tapper was involved or had written it or whatever, is the co writer, I literally, I jokingly told my friend, it's like O.J. simpson's if I Did it book. Like, I thought it was ridiculous. And just, quite frankly, I think it's like, journalistic malfeasance. And he's kind of, you know, dancing a little bit right now, saying that he should have had more humility in his reporting and that he should have, you know, known better. But there's hundreds, if not thousands of reporters who did cover the story the right way, including you. And there's millions and millions of Americans who saw what he was unable to see. And, you know, there's a video of him with Lara Trump, who I'm very friendly with, and she's a really lovely person, where he's just ripping her head off, talking about when she's bringing up Biden's cognitive decline, and she's. He's basically saying that she's, like, you know, bigoted towards people with disabilities because President Biden has a stutter. And every, like, few months that that video goes viral again. And I just think he's completely the wrong person to be doing this. I'm sure he got a big, fat paycheck. I'm sure he got a million dollars. And I'm just really feel like actually, like, physically grossed out at the idea that he's benefiting off of what you and I and so many other people were called, ghouls called, you know, really ugly names and things for a long time for calling out what we all could see was Biden's clear decline.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. So you and I have both spent time in newsrooms and we understand the culture of the liberal media. CNN has defended Jake Tapper and, and said, you know, he was just tough. He's super tough on, on this. Their statements run counter to what Papper, as you pointed out and I mentioned last segment, is saying now, which is he could have been tougher. What do you think's happening? Let's start with CNN and then talk about NBC and other places. What do you think's happening at CNN now? Do you think they think, they think this is a time for self reflection or this is just a time to help Jake sell books? How do you think they are viewing this moment?

[Megan McCain]

I don't understand any of it. I also don't understand what the publisher's reasoning was. I have heard through just like gossip in media circles that the publisher thought that Alex Thompson wasn't like a big enough name to sell this book. I disagree. I think he would have been more than big enough just the content of the book.

[Mark Halpern]

And if it was just his book, you and I would look at it in a much different light, a hundred percent.

[Megan McCain]

And I would buy it if it were just his book. And I would be like, happy to interview him because I do think, you know, he just won an award about his reporting and I don't put him in the same category. But I do think, unfortunately for Alex, like, this is tainting his career. I don't, I just, I don't. I used to really appreciate cnn and I still candidly have friends who work at cnn. Like I'm friends with Essie Cupp and she's, you know, wonderful and I think very smart and very like a straight shooter in her commentary. But CNN became such resistance porn the past few years and their ratings reflected that. And, you know, they can't even say, like, if Trump cured cancer, they would come up with some reason why he, he didn't do it effectively or why it was bad. And I think when you get to a point where you Trump clouds your judgment and your life so much, you become a parody of yourself. And I think unfortunately, they have. I was wondering if maybe Jake Tavern Cenan didn't realize to the degree how much the outside world views him that way. And again, as you say, like, I have friends in real life, like we all do, and they hate him. And it's not just people on the right, it's people in the center, people on the center left, because they just don't think he's a reliable person who continues to get rewarded over and over again in media like he is some kind of Edward R. Murrow figure. And it's just a fallacy.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay, let's talk about another place, NBC, where you and I both worked. Let's say the head of NBC News, you know, and you. But, you know, people there too. Let's say, let's, let's say New York Times. Let's say the publisher or the editor of the New York Times, my college roommate, Joe Kahn. Let's say he called you and he said, megan, I saw you on NextUp with Mark and totally agree. This is, this is the moment where we need to try to restore some credibility by coming clean. What should we do? What, what could the New York Times do to try to restore credibility on the issue of how they covered or didn't cover the la. Joe Biden's mental decline?

[Megan McCain]

They're, they're ne. In the same way that there's scalps on our side where like, any Republican who does the wrong thing is like, you know, banned from a polite society. There need to be some scalps on their side, too. Some people need to get fired for the work that they did during this time and the b, you know, completely biased reporting. I would tell them that they need to hire some legitimately conservative leaning people to write their opinion columns. And then I would be like, you need to really take a reflection on the journalists who work in your newsroom, like, what kind of biases they're bringing to the table. And I would have to go through it with like a fine tooth cone. But, you know, I have a list of people in my brain that I trust and people that I would say, stay the hell. I mean, you and I both have people. Maybe you don't, but I do. I have, like, people who work in politics and media who come to me and they're like, is this a safe person for me to talk talk to or is this person going to screw me? And I'll say, they're good, they're bad, stay away from them. I mean, like, not to, like, spill too much tea. I recently the Atlantic approached me about doing a profile and I was like, I wouldn't do a profile with the Atlantic if there was, like, money.

[Mark Halpern]

They wanted you to write one or they wanted to profile you.

[Megan McCain]

They wanted an interview with me, and I just am not. What's the point? Like, to be called, like, Mrs. Waterford from the Handmaid's Tale? Like, I'm just too awful.

[Mark Halpern]

I love. I loved your list. The other thing I would say to the New York Times is hire an outside person with credibility. Let them interview all your reporters and editors who covered the Biden administration and ask them. Show them videos of Biden, you know, talking to a dead congresswoman and exhibiting obvious decline and say, why didn't you write more about this? Who did you ask about this? Because I've talked to some of them, and they. Some of the reporters knew full well what was going on. There was this culture that said, we're just not covering this story.

[Megan McCain]

Yeah. I also think one of the things that when people ask me about newsrooms, people talk a lot about diversity, but I think diversity also means, like, what area of the country are you from? Did you not go to an Ivy League school? What kind of socioeconomic background do you come from? Like, it can't just be, like, respectful to myself, you know, rich Nepo babies and went to Ivy League schools who are always at. You know, a lot of times I work in newsrooms. Like, 50% of the time, somebody is related to somebody famous, or, like, their aunt is, like, a famous journalist, or their person's, like, a famous politician. And I think that's. And again, respectful to myself, because a lot of my career benefited from that now. But if I were in a newsroom, I'd be like, you need to start getting people from the middle of the country, people that did not go to Ivy League schools, whatever. People that go to, like, you know, Arizona State has an incredible journalism school. Like, you need to branch out and, like, you can't cover America if you don't understand America. And 90% of the time, and again, respectful to you, too. I know you went to Navy leagues. Great. Like, whatever. But I think that's part of the rot in this. It's like, yeah. Never been to Iowa. How can you talk about the Iowa caucus?

[Mark Halpern]

Right. Yeah. All right. Your dad had a close relationship with Joe Biden, although it was. It was not perfect. I mean, I know there was conflict between them on some things. For one thing, your dad thought Joe Biden talked too much, but he was not the only one who fit in that category.

[Megan McCain]

He also know the Biden. I remember him, like, saying that.

[Mark Halpern]

But they sort of like, wait, wait, say that again.

[Megan McCain]

Called him like, Joe the Biden. Like, Joe. He thought that was so funny. He'd be like, Joe the Biden. I don't know. But, yeah, they were my parents, actually, when they met the Bidens were, they met in Hawaii. Joe and Jill were there, and they had a very nice relationship, like, you know, coupley for a long time, I think, until politics, quite frankly, got involved. And then they sort of circled back around when my dad got sick. And I, yeah, it's tricky for me because President Biden was lovely to me when my dad was sick. Very kind, very, you know, like, answered tough questions about brain cancer. And then, and I've told this, but this publicly. It's not a, not something I'm secretive about. They asked me to endorse him. His campaign approached me and asked me to endorse him at the DNC in 2020. And I said no because I'm still a conservative Republican. And they, I never spoke to Bidens again. And his staff made it very, very clear that I was dead to them and their administration and their team. And I was so shocked by the experience because it was so ugly and bizarre. And, you know, he's like, I love everybody. I love Republicans. Like, except if I won't go on.

[Mark Halpern]

Who, on who on his staff issued those threats?

[Megan McCain]

I will tell you offline, but they are no longer a person that's worth. They have gotten there. I will say they have gotten their karmic retribution. That has nothing to do with me.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. All right, we'll talk about that on the, on the extra episode. And then just one more piece of the connection is your mom served in the Biden administration as an ambassador. Right?

[Megan McCain]

My mother, who I'm very close, and I should say, like, everyone in my family is liberal except me. Now, like, they all, like, like my mom hasn't officially switched parties like my brother Jimmy did. And we all, like, love each other and subsist together. My mother ended up, ended up, I actually said, call my mother. And my mother ended up endorsing, which I support and appreciate. And then she worked in the Biden administration as the head of the World Food Program. And I think she still has a collegial relationship with them. I, I, I don't want to speak for her, but I don't believe it's the same relationship at once.

[Mark Halpern]

Was I just, just to highlight. And then I want to ask you about the Bidens, but just to highlight what you said, like, your dad was, you know, they helped you Your family, when your dad was sick, they. They made your mom an ambassador. The rest of the family endorsed. Right. You're at least one of your brothers endorsed. And yet when you decline to endorse because you're a Republican, they. They said, we're dead. You're dead to them. And that is indicative of the Biden culture. You know, you and I have heard many stories like this, and this is another myth that the press didn't cover. What a nice guy, what a lovely family. Say what you want about them. They're so nice to people. And look what they did to you. And again, I know countless stories like this.

[Megan McCain]

It wasn't like they didn't say it to me directly, but their staff did.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. So I know you've already talked about this, but I just want you to talk about how the Bidens are handling this, particularly going on your old program, the View. How do you think the Bidens are dealing with not just the Tapper book, but the general effort by the Democratic Party to blame not Kamala Harris, not the Democrats who stayed silent, but to blame Joe Biden for what happened?

[Megan McCain]

I find the Biden's appearances in general just very discomforting because he, to me, doesn't look the way, you know, he still, to me, looks like there's some kind of cognitive issue, and he's, look, we all get old, God willing. I'm not an ageist person. I just think that, like, if I'm in that stage, at some point in my life, I do not want to be in front of a camera. I think Jill is doing herself and her family a disservice by sort of like, jumping in and answering questions. He was asked about staff saying he had cognitive decline and he wasn't. He shouldn't have run for president again. And she jumped in to answer the question. And I didn't think that. I didn't watch the entire View segment, but the clips I saw, it wasn't like, it was softball, but it could have even been more softball. They did ask him a question, so that. That was good. But I don't know what they're doing other than I'm very curious about your reporting that they're out of money. Maybe they thought that they. This is a way to make money like the Obamas did. I don't know. But I don't understand why they won't go away and be quiet. I think it's really important in life sometimes. After I left the View, I was very quiet for, like, a good two years. I think sometimes it's good for people to miss you. It's good to do reflection on where you are in life. And like they lost in a really catastrophic way and they're leading their party into slaughter. And I just don't understand what they're doing, but I don't want to, I don't want to see any more interviews with them at all.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, maybe. Would you watch if Jake Capper interviewed Joe Biden now? Would you watch that?

[Megan McCain]

Yeah, but that's never going to happen. I don't think Jake would do it. Like, I just don't. And also, what's the. I was saying, I was talking to a friend about this yesterday. Like, what is the point of this book now? Everyone knows that he, President Biden had had these, you know, issues. They know that he wasn't fit to be president. The American public saw it with their own eyes. They didn't need journalists to tell them they saw what they saw in the debate and made their decision. Like, I think the point now is trying to like whitewash their reputation and their, their experience not reporting on this. Like, that's my takeaway. Like, I don't know and I don't know Jake Tapper anymore. Like, I haven't talked to him in an extremely long time. But my takeaway is like, he is a smart man. He sees what's going on culturally and he's probably like, oh shit, I have to, I have to be someone that, that like, you know, I don't know, helps my reputation. But I just, I'm really sick of people who again, could not pass more judgment, could not be more ugly, could not say more disgusting things about people like me, particularly during that time. Now making what I can only fathom is an enormous paycheck off of the backs of the good work of so many people, quite frankly, like you, Mark. So it's like, why don't you respectfully have a multimillion dollar book deal? Like, why is Jake Tapper the like the person, like person I'm supposed to listen to on this experience? I'm really like flabbergasted by this book and confused it in general and maybe I shouldn't be, but I can remember having really tough conversations with you on camera that you and I got a lot of shit for saying that Joe Biden should be president, he should drop out and his brain's clearly not functioning the way it should be. And now Jake Tapper's taking all the credit.

[Mark Halpern]

Amen, sister. You too can Talk to Meghan McCain on the Two Way Platform every Tuesday and Thursday, noon Eastern Time.

[Megan McCain]

Citizen McCain Monday and Wednesday.

[Mark Halpern]

Oh, Monday and Wednesday. Thank you for correcting me. It's a bad promo if you get it wrong. Mondays and Wednesdays, noon Eastern Time on two way Citizen McCain join. And of course on YouTube as well. Mondays and Wednesdays. Thank you for correcting me, Megan. Thank you for making time.

[Megan McCain]

Thank you, thank you.

[Mark Halpern]

All right, after a brief interlude, we'll be back with Charlie Kirk. Next up.

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[Mark Halpern]

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[Charlie Kirk]

Well, thank you, Mark. And you are equally as generous on our program and our audience loves you, by the way. It's always fact first. Great insights and I'll throw the praise back at you. I think you were the most interesting and important reporter of the 2024 news cycle. All these other legacy guys that have all this infrastructure, you broke two or three stories and by the way, you called that shot of hey, Biden is going to resign and you just had it piece by piece, verse by verse. So you deserve a lot of credit. So I always try to throw it back and reciprocate.

[Mark Halpern]

I appreciate that. How do you know your audience loves me?

[Charlie Kirk]

The emails. You know, it's funny, we have very similar to Rush. I had the opportunity to get to know Rush quite well and it's just a tragedy what happened there and we miss him every day. But if you remember, he would always plug his email, email me at L. Rushbow at eib and he would have the screen up so in real time he would be able to see what the audience is thinking. And I would email him sometimes and he would respond during the break and he would always tell me that's kind of how he keeps a pulse on what segments are working and what guests. You know, he actually didn't do guests. That was the Rush very unique thing.

[Mark Halpern]

So I tried to every so often, every so Often he would.

[Charlie Kirk]

Very rarely. Right. Like, for example, after Cruz did that filibuster, he had him on as a, as a guest. He would have, you know, Vice President Pence or President Donald Trump. Very rarely, partially because of his cochlear implants. It was hard for him to hear the guest, and it would have to be transcribed to him on the television screen. Anyway, we get lots of emails saying, we love Mark Halpern. We want more Mark Halperin. And so we're gonna keep on giving the people what they want.

[Mark Halpern]

Give. Give the people what they want. Have you and I ever talked about Rush as a broadcaster? I can't remember.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, we haven't. No. And I, I would love, I used.

[Mark Halpern]

To, you know, I used to listen when I would take vacations and I would drive, like, out west. I would love, I would arrange the rise to three hours to listen. And, and you, you're ideologically aligned with Rush. Um, I, I, I stole so much from him as a broadcaster. So three things I loved about Rush as a broadcaster. Okay. Number one, silence. It's. And you do. You do it. And I've noticed you do it. And maybe you're purposely mimicking him. But Rush would not be afraid on radio. He was not on camera for most of his career, but he would not be afraid, even on radio, to pause and be quiet.

[Charlie Kirk]

That is such a great point. And it is such a great point.

[Mark Halpern]

Most people feel like when in front of the microphone, they have to constantly be talking. They can't have any dead air, because it's kind of weird to have dead air. But I learned it from Rush, and I use it all the time. It creates drama and tension, excitement and reflectiveness. It's just pausing. Incredible. So that's number one.

[Charlie Kirk]

Number two is the audience, and that's a great number.

[Mark Halpern]

And I've noticed, I've noticed you doing it. You do it with me. And part of it is a time to think, but it just, it's just a great craft. A great part of the craft. Second is, Rush was not afraid, to the contrary, of rustling the papers. Right. You could physically hear him wrestling papers. Now I'm working off of an iPad, an iPhone, and a computer, so I don't got anything to rustle, but I'm not afraid to make noise. Right. Noise is good. Like open a, open a Diet Coke, whatever it is. Like the sound effects again, human and real. And then finally, and this is something I've done in all my work, and Rush is not the only person who did this, but it's and it. And when I say this to people, sometimes they laugh. Rush would only talk about things he was interested in that and audience. And the audience knows. The audience knows. If you're hosting a show and you're talking about something that's not interesting.

[Charlie Kirk]

And what I loved. First of all, you're exactly right. One of my favorite shows ever. Hilariously. It's so funny you say that. I remember I once had to drive from Denver to Steamboat and I found the signal of Rush and the entire drive. There's something about driving in the west and listening to Rush Limbaugh that just kind of fits, right? Like the Americana landscape and listening to Rush. And he was just going on and on and on about his iPhone. It was like 30 minutes he was talking about how he got a new iPhone and he made it so interesting. I mean, like, how could. He was talking about all the new features and how he's in touch with Apple and actually Rush gave me an iPhone. He would give it to some of his friends and he gave me many models ago, an iPhone. Look, I actually grew up as, quote, not a Rush baby. But I was told Rush was too much of an extremist growing up, you know, by people around me, not by my parents. It was just kind of the vibe that he had. And right near 2011, 2012, that's when he had the big Sandra Fluck thing. You remember, the whole kind of contraception drama. And it was like the net.

[Mark Halpern]

Those who don't. Those who don't can Google, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

And not even worth repeating the elements of it. But the. It was actually a very interesting early test case of pre digital cancel culture with advertising. He obviously survived it and came out even stronger. But I remember I would listen to him during my lunch breaks in high school, and I was at this guy's amazing. He's entertaining, he's deep, he's insightful. And so the best of the best. And very similar to how Joe Rogan kind of invented modern podcasting. Rushed and invented. But he saved the AM dial. I mean, without a doubt, he's the AM dial almost. I mean, several major radio stations owed a Rush, you know, their entire livelihood because it wasn't just his show that made them money. But the morning show then got more popular, and then the drive time show got more popular, and the AM dial was decreasing in popularity. And here comes this guy, you know, from Cape Girardeau, Missouri, who is broadcasting on like five stations in Sacramento and became a phenomenon. So I could talk about Rush all day long. And I Love your observations there.

[Mark Halpern]

I'll say it is more praise for you. I tell. I've told people for years, whether you're a Democrat, Republican or journalist, whatever, if you want to be a broadcaster on audio, video or both, go listen to rush hours and hours if you haven't listened because it's just so much to learn from. And I'd say I say the same thing about people, about you now as both a broadcaster and as a idea political entrepreneur. Like, if you're a Democrat and you're not studying Charlie Kirk, you're making a huge mistake because you're doing stuff that is just like Rush. People have done stuff like it, but not exactly what you're doing. And we'll talk more about that for them, we'll talk more about it. But I want, I want to talk about kind of what's going on in the news and, and something that occurred to me this morning when I was thinking about our conversation, maga and your place in it. When you guys mobilize, you're very effective, particularly if it's an intra Republican fight. So Pete Hagg says nominations in danger. You and Tucker and others, you mobilize and Pete Hagsett gets confirmed. And it's not just you guys, it's your understanding of the grassroots and how to use social media and mobilization. Where is MAGA on this reconciliation bill? Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right now, Great question.

[Mark Halpern]

It's the President's biggest domestic focus. There's a lot of tension. Right. And a lot of issues to resolve it. And if it goes down, it's almost unimaginable. If it goes down. So where is MAGA now? Are you waiting to mobilize? Are you mobilizing? And I'm not seeing it.

[Charlie Kirk]

What's happening with that phenomenal question? And the first answer is the we first need to see what Congress, how Congress treats President Trump's budget. There's some elements where I'm not even sure how the base feels. I think I know. And it's not just that I only do a poll on Twitter, like, oh, yes or no. And you know to respond. I do do that. But again, going back to the Rush thing, I have here in my laptop 50,000 emails a week of how the conservative grassroots feel. And so I scan them again, I don't respond to them all, but when I say, hey, email me freedom. Charliekirk.com what do you think about that? All of a sudden I'm able to upload something that's far more accurate for the conservative grassroots than anything that upholstered could do. Let me break apart the parts of the reconciliation bill from the most favorable where the base absolutely wants it to where I think there's some murkiness or some question. No tax on tips. Very, very supportive. No tax on Social Security. I don't know if we're going to get that one. If it was proposed and then no tax on overtime. Those three in particular, the base really gravitated towards. But I would say.

[Mark Halpern]

But I would say not just the base. Right. Who'd be against those things? Those all sound good.

[Charlie Kirk]

Totally easy. Very popular. Yes. No, I just want to kind of go through those.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, I think Kamala Harris endorsed some of those. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like, correct.

[Mark Halpern]

I think.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so I think you're, you're right.

[Mark Halpern]

To list those first, but I'm just saying that's not getting to the problem, but keep going.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, no, no, I'm going to get to the more sticky stuff. Right. The, the border stuff is very favorable. More border patrol agents, more border funding. Democrats would definitely oppose that. But that is like, hey, we got to get that done. Now we're getting into kind of the murky favorable. But there's going to be a little bit of tension, which is spending cuts. The base overwhelmingly want spending cuts, but they don't want spending cuts to some of the things that actually might drive down the deficit. And that's where there's some debate. Should we get to a trillion dollar defense budget? We don't know. Right. Meaning, like, is that where the conservative grassroots stand? I personally think that we need to cut a lot of spending in all departments and all domains. That's going to be a real robust kind of month of, I don't want to say infighting, but back and forth of, hey, if we're serious about curtailing our debt and deficit, do we actually, are we actually going to go after the Pentagon?

[Mark Halpern]

But then why aren't you mobilizing on that right now?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, to be fair, we're not even sure yet what the final, like, ways in committee, you know, but it's all.

[Mark Halpern]

I understand, but it's all hap. It's all happening like the House is trying to pass a bill next week. So I'm not, I'm not just asking about you and Turning Point. I'm just saying, like, these are, these are germane right now, you know, state and local.

[Charlie Kirk]

And it's, it's an important question. No, you're right. And, and the, the, the best answer I have is the hegseth thing was a very focused, very easy rallying Cry because it was a binary. Yes, no, proceed. Do not proceed with the bill. It starts to get a little bit murky and a little bit wonkier and that's okay. I'm not even criticizing it there. It's just a lot more in the weeds of well, are we going to raise taxes on the wealthy or not? Now, interestingly, I could tell you that the more the Bannon wing of the Republican Party of the kind of conservative movement of MAGA is very supportive of raising taxes on quote unquote, the wealthy. 37% to 40% people on Capitol Hill are incredibly opposed to that idea actually. And I have on my show and they say no, no, no tax increases, no tax increases. I tend to be actually personally less ideological on it even though, you know, look, the podcast does every very well. You'll make fun of me, Mark, but my taxes would go up. Fine. Okay. I actually, I shrug my shoulders. It wouldn't be like a major lifestyle inhibitor if I think we're going to get spending cuts associated with it. So I actually have a non ideological view on that. And to be honest, like this is this. I'll. I will pay 3% more in taxes if I can go back on a college campus and tell them that we actually raise taxes on the wealthy. Do you understand like what that would do for like that talking point would.

[Mark Halpern]

So have shot you these heads up. Have you, have you taken, I apologize for not knowing. Have you taken that position strongly?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. But I only the caveat is that there would be for nothing if we don't get equal spending cuts. Right. If we're not going to cut spending and we're just going to raise taxes, I think that's, that's self defeat.

[Mark Halpern]

And where do you want to cut the spending besides the defense?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, obviously discretionary. So I think in all the departments. So the medicine one, I think that.

[Mark Halpern]

We can across the board cut.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, Well, I think we need to get back to pre Covid baseline spending.

[Mark Halpern]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I think that going back to 2019 levels and saying, hey, the, the new Covid levels are outrageous. They're improper.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

That, that could save hundreds of billions of dollars. And then I think we need. And this is where Republicans are running to the hills on the Medicaid thing. Right. And so the Medicaid, they say it's cutting Medicaid. It's really getting rid of the federal trigger cap. Again, this is very wonky for your audience, but there's essentially a trigger that if a state can only trigger the federal funds if they spend all of the state Medicaid money, then they get extra federal money. And so, so and then, but finally I. Okay, go ahead.

[Mark Halpern]

Now you go.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, the one that I am mobilizing on and this was one that is not getting a lot of attention, I think we're going to get it done is the defunding of Planned Parenthood. Now that one is about $800 million a year. It is not the one that is going to balance the budget. But that one is a pro life activist and one that honestly, Planned Parenthood from a political standpoint, forget on the health standpoint, has been very unkind to our side with advertisements through C4. And I think it's self defeating to fund an organization that obviously I'm ideologically against and also has been rather mean and vicious. But the point is like we have to pick our fights in this reconciliation package, right?

[Mark Halpern]

All right. We'll come back to planned parity because I want to ask you about that. But so there's lots of other issues in the bill and as you point out, some are very popular. But, but if you're serious about deficit reduction and if you're serious about the books and if you agree with me and Steve Bannon that the politics of saying there's no magic about what the top rate is for the, for the people who earn the most, it seems like MAGA or you could say, and the president I think would be for this based on his public statements who say we want to make smart reductions in the Pentagon that, that the experts say won't hurt our, our security. We want to go back to pre Covid spending levels. And so the departments will have to figure out how to, how to accommodate that. We want to do smart things about Medicaid that don't hurt beneficiaries who shouldn't be hurt. And in part we want to fund that by allowing the top rate to rise. That's a package that I think if you support it and your allies supported and said to the president is that good with you would happen. So why isn't that happening? And for people who say, just to say, people say this is wonky. This is like our future and our kids future.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I agree. I could talk about this all day long. I just.

[Mark Halpern]

So, so, so what? So I, right now that's all happening. And, and I think that I think if, if, if the, if MAGA said whatever else is in this giant bill, we want those provisions, I think he'd have a good chance to pass it and the president would would win substantively and politically.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think that's partially correct. The president is very adamant about a $1 trillion defense budget. To be honest. I need to hear that argument. I really want to sit down and learn, and I haven't done that. And I want to hear from Pete Hegseth and hear from the president. Why do we want to get or his team, why do you want to get to 1 trillion? Because that really is a major component.

[Mark Halpern]

Shouldn't you be doing that now? It's all happening now.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, it is happening. But again, to be fair, this is, this is true. I had Mark Wayne Mullen on the show and Rick Scott on the show, and they don't even half the time know all the details of what's going on. They have contradictory stuff. And so I'm trying to also get my bearings. Does that make sense? Like, okay. And they're like, well, in this committee, this is here, and there's no way we'll cut that. And so I'm trying to also find out who is the driving force of this entire thing. It's, it's not totally clear. And I think you're right. It's going to happen gradually and then suddenly.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I guess my answer is, why are we not mobilizing the way we do with Hegseth? Because I'm not actually as ideological on some of this stuff as I was with with Pete, which was a very dramatic red line. In fact, I want to support the President. I want what's best for the country. There are some red lines that we have as the conservative movement, for example, if we get nothing on the border, I think that would be obvious, and I don't think that's going to happen. That looks like it's going to be a pretty easy win. But then there's the other kind of two and the second and third issues where, you know, the right now, like, Senator Johnson has come out this morning and said, I'm not going to support even the form of this reconciliation bill.

[Mark Halpern]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

I, I, I, it's like, okay. And then Rand Paul said something the same. So are we even? Are we even? What are we negotiating? Right. Because if they're like the structure itself, and then Rand Paul comes on my show, contrary to Rick Scott, and says, well, if it raises the debt ceiling, I'm not voting for it.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, all right, I hear you. Anyway, complicated. It's not as simple as a up or down confirmation vote, but I still want it back.

[Charlie Kirk]

When it gets to those elements, we will be willing to mobilize on things that we are, We. We preciously care about. So.

[Mark Halpern]

So if there's a. If there's a fight, when there's a final vote, say, in the House, which will vote first, if the president supports the bill, will you mobilize on behalf of whatever's in it at that point?

[Charlie Kirk]

Almost certainly. Unless there's things that are so adamant towards what I believe. For example, if there's, like, nothing for border security, if we're, like, expanding Medicaid funding, but again, if it's a better than not bill, almost certainly we'll mobilize.

[Mark Halpern]

And will the mobilization include what you've mobilized the way you've mobilized before, which is if the White House says or the press says, these are the eight Republicans who are wavering, will you go on Twitter and say, dear Congressman, so and so you better vote for the president's bill or you'll pay a price the way you've done on other issues?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it depends on what their contentions are. It also depends on, like, are they actually persuadable? What was unique about the Pete Hegg set? I know that's like, kind of the reference point.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that, like, you know, Joni Ernst herself was being rumored at possibly going into the dod. There was all this other kind of subterranean drama. But it depends. It depends on what the objections will be and whether or not, you know, any sort of influence from the right flank could actually influence some of these people. I mean, some of these moderates in New York, they love being attacked, actually, sometimes from the right flank when they're in cycle. I will tell you, Mark, something that we will not tolerate is if they are blaming or they're saying, well, we have the midterms coming up, so we can't take a tough vote. I think that's an outrageous thing. You just won an election. You just got political power. Use it. Don't constantly be looking at the next election.

[Mark Halpern]

Yep, yep. Planned Parenthood, I believe this is the case. I've covered them for a long time. Most of what they do is not perform abortions. Most of what they do is contraception testing, including for sexually transmitted diseases. And in a lot of communities, they're the ones doing that stuff. You know, they're providing a big part of the market. So isn't it. Wouldn't it be better for the country, I ask a devil's advocate here. Wouldn't it be better not to defund them, but to try to figure out a way to fund the things that are useful? Because I assume you think testing for sexually transmitted diseases and. Sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, obviously I'm not going to contend that.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, so. So.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, you'd really do.

[Mark Halpern]

Personally with.

[Charlie Kirk]

Birth control is a separate issue. Yeah. Access to contraceptives. I'm not going to fight on access to contraceptions. Yeah.

[Mark Halpern]

So. So isn't it a mistake for. For the country not kick the politics out of it to try to put them out of business?

[Charlie Kirk]

No. I mean, and I would say that we could reallocate that money to other community health centers that don't perform abortions at all. I don't want to get too deep into this, but there is evidence to show that if a woman will go to Planned Parenthood for contraception, she will develop a relationship and then be more likely than to be part of the quote, unquote, business flow that could lead towards abortion. There. There is also an argument, and to be honest, I've heard it and I need to prove it more. But I believe it just instinctively, intuitively, I should say that it helps pay the overhead of the business model that then allows Planned Parenthood to do some of the other stuff that makes sense. As someone who runs a big organization, I could see how overhead can help grind the gears there. But here's the other point is that there are other potential community health centers that do not offer abortions that could get that nearly $800 million a year. And I think we should be open.

[Mark Halpern]

They could hypothetically, and you say you're open to it. But I would argue that anyone who's actively trying to get the money away from them shouldn't just say in the abstract, there are other places. But to be have a plan on the front end to say, okay, San Antonio, we're going to shut down the Planned Parenthood in San Antonio. Let's find out how much of the contraception in San Antonio, how much of the testing in San Antonio is done by that office and then say, all right, before we shut that down, let's find another place. And not in the abstract say, maybe there'll be another place. Let's find another place. And not have any interruption in services.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So there are 15,000. And Elizabeth Warren hates this, what's called pregnancy crisis centers, which are more pro life outfits that do all this work. They do mammograms, they do, you know, STD testing. They will do free gynecology visits for women. And they receive almost no federal funding. In fact, they receive almost no Medicaid. So a lot of the planned parent money is reimbursements.

[Mark Halpern]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So it's reimbursements through the HHS schedule. Some of their, I think it's Title 10 funding is actually tied up right now like $60 million of it under an executive order from President Trump. But, but more than that, look, and I don't, I don't believe some of your audience will sympathize me on this. We believe what Planned Parenthood is doing in their primary mission statement, which is we believe the elimination of life is wrong. We don't think that our taxpayer funding should go towards that. To your point, somebody needs to go down to the specifics to reallocate that funding to other community health centers, to other people pregnancy crisis centers, because there are 15,000 of them. There's no lack of the infrastructure. It's a matter of where we're actually putting that funding.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. I left out mammograms in gynecological, and I shouldn't have because that's a big part of what they do. I just, it's big.

[Charlie Kirk]

I get it.

[Mark Halpern]

I just, I just hope that if anyone who supports getting rid of the Planned Parenthood funding has a really granular understanding of how to avoid interruption of these other services for which they, of which they provide a lot. That's all. You know, I just.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And for, look, a bad policy. A, A working woman in San Antonio that wants to make sure that she doesn't have a cyst or something. Right. To get a ablation, not a abortion right. We don't want to interrupt that. We, though, don't want that person to go into a Planned Parenthood business flow cycle again. There's just no convincing me otherwise. And let, Let, let Planned Parenthood fund itself, raise its own capital and not be able to receive federal funding for that.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. And, and again, whatever your view of, of abortion rights or, or life, is the country elected a pro life president who talked all a lot about this exact point. And so people, people shouldn't begrudge that. Even if you have a principal difference on, on the public policy and whether there's a constitutional right or not. I want to ask you about history because you and I haven't talked much about it. And, and you are a student of history. And I just want to get your sense of, of some of the recent presidents and start with the Democrats. What do you admire about how Bill Clinton performed the job of as president for eight years, what's admirable or a good role model for president?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So what makes you and I a little different? Bill Clinton is. I don't remember Any of it. So I'm only looking through a historical lens. I don't have personal experience, so you could correct me looking from a historical perspective. Again, I'm a budget hawk. So the fact he balanced the budget I thought was very admirable and I think that it was good for the country. He waged war on his base on three major issues. He waged war, if I remember correctly, welfare reform, crime. And there was a third death penalty.

[Mark Halpern]

Also death penalty shirt.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I actually think that what he did with some of the crime bill in the 90s, although people attack it, it materially did work. It did bring down violent crime rates across the country. So I admire that. I think Democrats moving to the center is good for the country and is good for the well being of our republic. I'm not going to get into all the personal issues of Bill Clinton. That's well documented. That's actually not that interesting to me. Everyone knows that. But I think that there is this desire in the country, can we get a Newt Gingrich back with Bill Clinton to balance budget, cut spending and to potentially come together on what should be non political issues.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. Again, I take your, your generously phrased point about my being older that you're looking at this as a historical matter rather than having.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, I'm looking, but purely through textbooks, basically.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, but, but what would you say is our lessons from how the budget was balanced under Bill Clinton that might be germane now.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I mean, I think number one, it really, the momentum towards the balanced budget only happened with divided government. You have to have people that actually want it and Bill Clinton wanted it to his credit. I mean he actually wanted a balanced budget. Number two, I give a lot of credit to Speaker Gingrich. He ran on it. He kind of, he won back the House. I think for Republicans for the first time in what you would know at 50 years, I mean it was, I think that's right. The Republicans didn't control the House for a very long time, even during rating maybe 64 years. Really? Yeah. No, it was, it was transformational and Republicans didn't even know what to do with it once they got it. And it was the con, the famous Contract With America, to be honest, not living through it. I also, I firmly believe that Bill Clinton was in a very unique spot and made some bad mistakes to try to allow China into the international trade order. There were some things he did with banks that I don't love. But generally Bill Clinton won the presidency as a kind of blue dog Democrat. As a common sense Democrat and was a far better fiscal steward of the country than even some Republicans over the last 20 years. And I mean that I respect.

[Mark Halpern]

So maybe the best way for Donald Trump to balance the budget would be to lose the House.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I don't think Hakeem Jeffries is a, is a, is a honest broker that actually wants the balanced budget. That's the difference where I think Bill Clinton was.

[Mark Halpern]

How did Barack Obama governor's president that you found admirable.

[Charlie Kirk]

Found admirable. Boy, I could tell you first, I mean the obvious. I. Let me just tell you background and then I will, I will try the best to answer that question. Actually, I do have an answer to that. But first, I grew up in Chicago during the Obama craze 08 09. So I understood the celebrity and the aura of Obama. The big hope that everybody would repeat time and time again. That was his greatest failing is they thought it would be a de. Emphasis of racial politics, not an emphasis of racial politics. We were talking more about race at the end of the Obama presidency than at the beginning. I think that was one of his great failings. What I actually think he did well was that he could have been way more radical his last four years. He kind of took it easy. I'd say this as a conservative. He did not issue flurries of radical executive orders. He, he was in some ways so careful to not come across as like overly, overly revolutionary as a president. And there's a lot of historians that wrote this and again, this is going to sound like improper, but you understand what I'm saying. There were some historians that have said about Obama that he knew he was the first black president and he took that with a lot of weight. So he didn't want to be like overly radical and overly throwing away of White House custom. And, and for that I actually admired. And again, I don't mean to racialize it. That was his own telling to his own inner circle. Right. And so, yeah, I think that in that way it was good. And then other thing, I admire that. And Republicans in Congress need to realize this. He went big. He won a mandate and he went very big that first year. He went for health care, he went for stimulus, it cost him, but he went really big. And, and for that I admire.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. All right. How many words in a thought bubble would you say?

[Charlie Kirk]

Approximately how many words are in a thought bubble?

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, about.

[Charlie Kirk]

I've never got six or seven.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. I want, I want the Charlie Kirk thought bubbles on the following. This is the rapid Round here. So just like.

[Charlie Kirk]

Here we go.

[Mark Halpern]

What's the thought bubble? Here we go.

[Charlie Kirk]

You asked the best questions. I told my team. I said I gotta be on my game. Mark asked the best question.

[Mark Halpern]

This be good. Charlie Kirk, thought bubble. Marco Rubio wants to be president.

[Charlie Kirk]

I prefer J.D. vance, but Marco's great.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm trying to, like, count my words.

[Mark Halpern]

I understand. We'll go with a prox. Jeanine Pirro, U.S. attorney.

[Charlie Kirk]

Phenomenal friend. And far more qualified than the media realizes or is covered.

[Mark Halpern]

Is there any ally of the president who's not your friend?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, but I'm not going to tell you who.

[Mark Halpern]

Really? Wow. Are you thinking of just, like, one particular person?

[Charlie Kirk]

One or two?

[Mark Halpern]

One or two. Are they serving in the administration?

[Charlie Kirk]

One of them is, yeah.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay. Interesting. We'll have to come back to that next episode. All right, back to the thought bubble. Six words. The president's team calls and said they want you to spend this weekend at Mar a Lago.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you for the call. I have to see if I have a family conflict, but I'll do my best.

[Mark Halpern]

All right. And would you look forward.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which has actually happened before.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, Yeah, I bet. If you. If you didn't have a family conflict, would you look forward to it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's. Look, he's the best to be around. You've spent time around him.

[Mark Halpern]

He's.

[Charlie Kirk]

He is the. He's a force of nature. He's got, I think, at times, supernatural energy. And. Yeah. I mean, if I. If I could be helpful. I will always be helpful to the president or his team.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay. Somebody screens your calls. Let's say. I know probably mostly you just pick up your cell phone, but somebody screening your calls and they say, it's true.

[Charlie Kirk]

I have my own. That.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. But somebody. Somebody's. You know, you hand your phone to somebody because you're doing something and they're screening it and they pick up and they say, I want the thought bubble. Hey, Charlie, it's Roger Stone.

[Charlie Kirk]

Say hi, Roger. How can I help you today?

[Mark Halpern]

All right, so you. Would you be happy to hear from Roger?

[Charlie Kirk]

I like Roger. I advocate for his pardon, and he's a uniquely American political figure. They do not have, like, Roger Stones in the Netherlands. Like, there's something about him that's true that I find to be dramatic and fun and unpredictable.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah. Okay. You look down at your phone and there's a text from Pete Hagseth says, charlie, I just can't take it anymore. I think I gotta quit.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, we work too hard. You're too good of a man. Grin and bear it. Turn off your phone for a day and keep going.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay. That would be my. Okay. J.D. vance says, hey, Marco and I are going to the Pope's first mass this weekend. Want to come? Thought bubble.

[Charlie Kirk]

I will say, actually, I have to be in London to debate at Oxford, but I would actually honestly say thank you for the invite. Hope you guys have a great time. I'm not Catholic, but please invite someone who would value it more. And I would value it a lot, but I would feel as if I'd be like, stealing a seat from someone where that would be like, the coolest thing in their life as kind of a cradle Catholic. I mean that, like, non sarcastically. I think that a cradle Catholic would have much more reverence for that, even though I would be floored and honored as, and I love Catholics, but I.

[Mark Halpern]

Think that would be understood. Look down at your phone. It's a text. Ready? It says this, hey, Charlie, it's Kamala Harris. I got your number. I'm going to be in Phoenix and I would love to get together.

[Charlie Kirk]

I would say first, I'd have to verify that it's actually her number.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay. Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I'd say only on camera.

[Mark Halpern]

That would be your thought bubble. I'd only do it on camera, Correct.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Mark Halpern]

Why would she text back and say, I, I want to have. I've heard a lot of great things about you. I want to compare notes. And at a private dinner.

[Charlie Kirk]

No way. I, I, I would consider to be disingenuous. Unless, Unless. Unless, Unless there would be an intermediary that would advocate for, let's say, let's.

[Mark Halpern]

Say, then I would have something usual. Yes, you would do it. And now you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Mark Halpern]

Would you look for, would you look forward to it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, of course I would. I love learning. I learned this from Tucker. Sit down with people, even if you disagree, ask great questions, be curious. The only fencing I would have is if, you know, am I being taped? Am I being recorded? Is there like another agenda? That's just typical right wing paranoia talking. So. But if all those things were there and there was an intermediate intermediary that would advocate for, you know, hey, this is a legit thing, like, there's no games, then, yeah, I would do it, of course.

[Mark Halpern]

Okay, couple more. You get a call and you pick up. The phone rings. You don't recognize number. It's block number. You pick it up and the person says, this is Barack Obama and I would like you to come to Chicago and speak to a group of Young student leaders.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Mark Halpern]

Happy to.

[Charlie Kirk]

Absolutely happy.

[Mark Halpern]

You would do that?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, of course I'll speak. I mean, honestly, I'd love to meet Obama. I'm not, like, a fan of his, but I never met him. I have a whole. No, I haven't. No, I've seen him. I saw him at the inauguration, which is actually the first time I ever saw him in person. And I would love to privately figure out. I have a theory. He's not actually as radical as the current left wing of his party is.

[Mark Halpern]

That's. That's, that's accurate.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I want to confirm that. I want to kind of feel out what drives him. And so, yeah, I mean, I'd meet him. And I think that if he wants me to speak to a bunch of students, I'll speak to, you know, any students. We could maybe speak at the Obama library if it ever gets finished.

[Mark Halpern]

How late do you typically stay up?

[Charlie Kirk]

Not too late, actually. 10, 10, 30.

[Mark Halpern]

And do you ever wake up in the middle of the night, go to the kitchen and eat?

[Charlie Kirk]

Rarely.

[Mark Halpern]

Rarely. Okay. You wake up in the middle of the night and you're hungry, and you go to the kitchen. What's your thought bubble?

[Charlie Kirk]

My thought bubble is a banana or almond butter that puts you right to sleep. Bananas full of tryptophan.

[Mark Halpern]

So it's true. All right, last thought bubble. And then. And then we're done. You. You. Your accountant says, open your email.

[Charlie Kirk]

Your.

[Mark Halpern]

Your tax returns there and how much you owe is in there. What's your thought bubble?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, gotta pay it.

[Mark Halpern]

Yeah, I pay my taxes, so that's good. That's good. As an American.

[Charlie Kirk]

I pay quarter.

[Mark Halpern]

Deal. Does Arizona. Does Arizona have an income tax? I can't remember?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, we do. It's not. It's not terrible. It's like 3.7%, but, yeah, it's the cost of paradise.

[Mark Halpern]

Understood. Grateful to you for making time and love, everyone. And love, love being on with you. And I hope next time your producers say, hey, Aler wants you back on you, Your thought bubble will be absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

You asked the best questions. I love it. Because you challenge me.

[Mark Halpern]

You, you, you. It's.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's provocative in a good way. Right. It gets towards things that I would not usually be asked, but in a very respectful and insightful way. So thank you.

[Mark Halpern]

Very grateful to you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Dan. See you soon. Take care. Bye. All right, so that was Charlie Kirk. I appreciate him being on. Great talking to Megan McCain. And again, very grateful to you all for being part of nextup. You can watch this show on YouTube or you can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. And if you haven't yet, please subscribe, like recommendations, all those other things. And we'll see you next week with more next time.