← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Kamala’s 107 Excuses, Corey Lewandowski on Trump 3.0, and Detroit’s Mayor on Leaving the Dem Party
01:12:42
Mark Halperin kicks off today’s show by breaking down what Kamala Harris has — and hasn’t — done since losing the 2024 election. While Donald Trump has used his second term to reshape the political landscape, Harris has largely receded from the stage. Mark explores her indecision, lack of public engagement, and what her next chapter might reveal about the Democratic Party’s future. Harris says the system is broken — but Mark argues it’s not. The system is intact, and if she wants to lead, she’ll need to put in the work… because changing America takes more than 107 days. Then, Corey Lewandowski joins Mark to chart the evolution of Donald Trump’s political life — from before the golden escalator ride to today. The longtime confidant shares insights on Trump’s inner circle, who might win Trump’s 2028 backing, and what could be next for the 45th president. It’s a rare behind-the-scenes look at Trump past, present, and future from someone who’s been there since the beginning. Plus, D...
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- [00:03]
Mark Halpern
Welcome, people of earth. This is NextUp. I'm your host, Mark Halpern, Earthling editor in chief of the live interactive video platform 2way, and your guide, as always, to everything that's next up in politics, media and beyond. On today's program, the mayor of Motown, Mike Duggan, who's running as an independent for governor of Michigan. We'll talk to him about how he sees a path there. And now he has become so popular governing a city that used to be seen as pretty ungovernable. And then longtime Trump advisor Corey Lewandowski. He's been with Donald Trump since the beginning of the politics of 2015. We'll talk all about how Donald Trump is doing in this term and a little bit of history of how he got where he is. Plus, our patented word association game about Trump luminaries. That's with Corey. But up next, first up, my reported monologue. What is next up for Vice President Kamala Harris? This is a question that I've been surprised at how little it's been discussed ever since she made the decision not to run for governor of California and announced her book. It has been 274 days since Donald Trump beat Kamala Harris to win back White House, 197 days since Donald Trump took the oath of office for the second time and began thoroughly dominating our politics. In that time, it's been fascinating to see how Kamala Harris has gone forward. Their path have diverged, Trump and Harris, to say the least. Donald Trump's never running for president again. He sort of reaffirms that whenever he's asked, Kamala Harris might. But for the last 274 days, both Trump and Harris have really operated true to form. Both of them have played to type. Trump has been in the spotlight almost every day, even during the transition. And, and he's kind of reflected and represented where he has taken his party, the country and the world. On the other hand, Kamala Harris has barely and rarely been on the stage, but is also very much representing herself and her connection to the Democratic Party. Trump is in the arena. He's being bold and strong. Occasionally he's been reckless and sometimes duplicitous, sometimes ridiculous. Honest Republicans will acknowledge that. But he is largely making his base happy. Sometimes he's confusing them. Sometimes he's freaking them out. He's regularly freaking out blue America. And despite what the New York Times will tell you, he's not destroying the country. He is radically changing it. On the other hand, what is Kamala Harris been doing? She's Been dithering. There's no two ways about it. As she's tried to decide through numerous conversations what's her theory of the case for what she wants to do next? What major job will she seek? She's now ruled out. Governor, President apparently is still in the possible realm. As always, though, her public conduct reflects her private torture. I have said this about her before. It's the key to understanding her as a public official. She does not like to make difficult decisions under pressure, and trying to decide what to do next is a lot of pressure. She does not want to miss the moment. She does not want to make a mistake. And in doing that, she has tied herself in knots.
- [03:11]
Corey Lewandowski
And some of her friends, some of.
- [03:12]
Mark Halpern
Her advisors, some of her boosters feel maybe she is missing the moment.
- [03:16]
Corey Lewandowski
What has she been doing? She has been doing mostly B list events, not major events, barely dipping her toes into anything that represents either a long term commitment or decisively weighing in at some sort of culturally relevant time. There are dumb Democrats, as I said, some voters, even the media, even some Republicans who say, look, she's young. Leave her a wide berth to decide what she wants to do next, maybe grow into another role. She does not have only 107 days now, the time she ran for president last time. She's got years to decide if she ever wants to be president and do what is required to reach that brass ring. She's young by political standards, she's nowhere near the age of our last two presidents. But if you look at everything she's done since she lost the election to Donald Trump, I don't think you could say anything with the exception of turning down running for governor has been a decisive step in any direction. Defining herself, defining her party. It's not just the personalities of Trump and Harris, though, that have been on vivid display. It's also their work styles. You know, he plays a lot of golf.
- [04:26]
Mark Halpern
Sure.
- [04:26]
Corey Lewandowski
And he, you know, on social media, goofs around, certainly watches a lot of tv. But he has worked very hard in this second term, round the clock, seven days a week, using all his energy, all his resources to try to be a better president than he was last time. For all his bravado about how everything he does is great, he has worked really hard hiring good people, doing what he thinks is necessary to be considered a great president. We'll see how he does. What is Kamala Harris done during the same period of time? She's done a bunch of really fun stuff, some social stuff. She's traveled. She's clearly better rested. She Looks great by the measurements of most folks. She's approaching, though, all the few public tasks she's done with, I would say, about 110 of the energy required to do a great job. And she's on a high plane now, right? She's got to do a great job if she wants to succeed. She was the Vice President of the United States. She was the candidate for the party. You think back to the Chicago convention a year ago, and she showed a.
- [05:28]
Mark Halpern
Lot of people who were looking at.
- [05:30]
Corey Lewandowski
Her performance in Chicago a ton of potential. There was charm, elegance, excitement, inspiring so many people around the country, not just into the Chicago convention hall, and yet she was unable to sustain it. You still hear people privately say what is apparent to anybody with eyes and ears.
- [05:48]
Mark Halpern
She did not run a good campaign.
- [05:51]
Corey Lewandowski
We all know.
- [05:52]
Mark Halpern
We all know that what was a.
- [05:54]
Corey Lewandowski
Fast start, aided and abetted by the media, was not sustained. And we've seen her over the last year or so challenged repeatedly. And the question now that people have is, has she come through this process stronger if she wants to run for president this time or any day down the road? Is she doing the things to take advantage of the moment, to get herself ready? That is what people are wondering about Kamala Harris right now. If you think about how she's conducted herself, what she's done. She says she's taking a break now because the system is broken, okay? The system is broken. Donald Trump has built his entire political career for the last decade over that exact same argument. Trump said in 2015, he says it now, even though he's president, the system is broken. And while people who don't like Donald Trump will say Trump's actually the one breaking the system, his supporters would tell you he is smashing the system, but he's doing it in order to restore it, to build something bigger. So, again, what has Kamala Harris done with her time? She's taken in some Broadway shows. You can see that on Instagram. She met with relief workers in the aftermath of the California fires. She signed with caa, the Hollywood talent agency, to represent her. She's gone to a couple of awards dinners and a few political dinners. She went to the Met Gala fancy dinner in New York. She spoke at a high school graduation. And of course, she did her interview with Stephen Colbert, her first interview since losing the election. She also sends out fundraising emails to maintain that big list she has. That is not a lot, if you think about all the time has passed. And if you think about the image that's been left by all those things, it's nothing. It's a sparrow's toe print in the snow. She has stayed away from interviews. She stayed away largely from the big public debates that have raged during the Trump term. Vaguely she's been involved, but not in any specifics. And of course, she stayed entirely from the debate about Joe Biden's cognitive decline and what she and others did and knew and said about it. That is not a fake issue. That is an issue that matters for the credibility of the Democratic Party. We've talked about that a lot here. I do not hear a big clamor from donors and strategists and elected officials that I talk to that say, of course we want her to run. Of course she's ahead in the polls. Of course she's our leader. Not a lot of disappointment that she.
- [08:22]
Mark Halpern
Didn'T run for governor.
- [08:23]
Corey Lewandowski
Now, I will tell you, I said.
- [08:26]
Mark Halpern
During the Biden administration that Republicans who said Donald Trump or that Joe Biden had completely lost his cognitive abilities were wrong. They were overstating the case. And I will tell you that. And I said at the time that Democrats were saying there's nothing wrong, were understating the case. Same is true of Kamala Harris and her political abilities, her intelligence, her, her, her goodness as a person.
- [08:51]
Corey Lewandowski
I got to know her a little.
- [08:52]
Mark Halpern
Bit before she was vice president, before.
- [08:54]
Corey Lewandowski
She was a senator.
- [08:55]
Mark Halpern
And I will tell you that she is not stupid.
- [08:58]
Corey Lewandowski
And I hate to have to even.
- [09:00]
Mark Halpern
Say it, but I confronted all the time.
- [09:02]
Corey Lewandowski
She is, she is not great in public.
- [09:05]
Mark Halpern
As Bill Clinton said about Mitt Romney.
- [09:09]
Corey Lewandowski
During Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, he's a very nice man.
- [09:13]
Mark Halpern
It's unfortunate that he has a job.
- [09:14]
Corey Lewandowski
That involves speaking in public. The same with the vice president. Vice President Harris, she, if you have a private conversation with her, you will find she is knowing. She is smart. She understands how people see her. I don't blame you for not agreeing with me. I'm sure some of you are pulling your hair out as you hear me say it. But you got to trust me because I have had private conversations with her. She is like Hillary Clinton, like John Kerry, like Mitt Romney, like a lot of people who Al Gore, who for whatever reason, cannot take their private behavior and translate it into the public realm. And of course, again, if your job is talking the public realm, that's a big problem. And you couple that with the reality that she does not like to make difficult decisions under pressure. It's a recipe for just not being where she needs to be. So now we see because of the passage of time. This is true of all humans. Both Trump and Harris are moving forward, but they're moving forward in very different ways. Donald Trump is buffeted by his own bluster, by the enormity of the job he's in, but he's getting a lot done every day. Agree with them or disagree with them. Kamala Harris, though, has largely shrunk back, not taking advantage of the public platform she could have because I don't think she knows what she wants and I don't think she knows how to express it. Her critics say that really what she wants is what they say a lot of Republicans say the Obamas want. She just wants to get rich and be celebrated, have fun, not doing anything that's stressful or complicated, getting accolades because she's been the vice president of the United States. If you think about her performance as vice president, it's very difficult to unpack. You've probably heard, read very little about what Kamala Harris did as vice president. How much can you say she did? We know that she was given, for instance, assignments to deal with the root causes of the challenge of the southern border. We know that she spoke out on things like voting rights. But really, you can't say what she.
- [11:14]
Mark Halpern
Did as vice president. You can't say because it hasn't been reported. You can't say if she was a successful vice president or not. Now, here's what I can tell you. I reported last week that the folks in the Biden administration, including the president himself, were very protective of her, did their best to make her a success, did their best to make her ready to be president, either if Joe Biden left office prematurely or if she decided she wanted to run. If you look at her public schedule, you'll see she had, I think, an unprecedented number of meetings with world leaders, certainly every opportunity, whether they were in Washington or when she traveled overseas. She met a lot of world leaders. They tried to get her up to speed, but she was not quite ready for primetime, let me put it that way. The parallels between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and John McCain and Sarah Palin, I think are instructive here. John McCain chose Sarah Palin. It was a high risk, high reward mode. He thought she would help him win the White House. And then he's no fool. He saw that she had real deficiencies. The assumption of his team and of Senator McCain was that someone who was a governor of the state knew basic things and turned out not to be true. But to the end of his life, John McCain would not say a bad word in public or typically in private about Sarah Palin. Joe Biden had the same attitude. He knew when he picked Kamala Harris that the notion that she was, quote, unquote, the most qualified person in the country to be the vice president, to be a heartbeat away. He knew that wasn't true.
- [12:49]
Corey Lewandowski
But because of the politics of the.
- [12:50]
Mark Halpern
Democratic Party, he chose her.
- [12:52]
Corey Lewandowski
She was very close to his late son, Beau Biden. That gave him some comfort that he.
- [12:57]
Mark Halpern
Could work with her.
- [12:58]
Corey Lewandowski
But from the beginning, they saw deficiencies, and the nature of those deficiencies I'm.
- [13:04]
Mark Halpern
Not prepared to talk about today based.
- [13:05]
Corey Lewandowski
On the terms I've been told about them. But suffice to say that part of why Joe Biden held on, part of why Joe Biden refused to give up the job was because he felt that her ability to run, to beat Donald Trump, that her ability, if she did.
- [13:24]
Mark Halpern
Win, to be a successful president, he didn't see it.
- [13:27]
Corey Lewandowski
And he would tell people that. He would tell people if he stepped aside, Kamala would be the nominee. She almost certainly lose to Trump, but that if she won, her knowledge of how to do the job, her knowledge of certain subject areas was not sufficient for her to be president. Now, his judgment may have been wrong, but there were plenty of people in the West Wing who felt the same way about both her capacity to win and govern. And that's played a big role in the history of this. Now, you could say it was just a justification that Joe Biden used that to argue that he should keep the job.
- [14:00]
Mark Halpern
But there were people around him who felt the same way. And if you look at, someday somebody's going to write a great book about how she operated as vice president. And you will find people, including people on her own staff.
- [14:11]
Corey Lewandowski
And remember, there was a lot of.
- [14:12]
Mark Halpern
Staff turnover there who said she's, she's, she's not up to this.
- [14:17]
Corey Lewandowski
She has trouble dealing with staff when their pressure is on.
- [14:21]
Mark Halpern
Okay?
- [14:22]
Corey Lewandowski
And now she's got people around her giving her advice.
- [14:25]
Mark Halpern
She's doing lots of consultations.
- [14:27]
Corey Lewandowski
The bottom line is it's hard to argue that she's used this time productively. Many people who lose the White House move on, right? They, they, they say, I'm never going to run again.
- [14:38]
Mark Halpern
They know they need to go away, that the party and the public maybe.
- [14:40]
Corey Lewandowski
Doesn'T want to see them. But.
- [14:42]
Mark Halpern
But the reality is that she has the tools. She's got the power, she's got the sway within the party. She could have used these last many weeks to build something real. And she's talking about building some sort of nonprofit. Everybody needs a break. After punishing and heartbreaking loss, she still no doubt has some time to figure this out. But the first thing she's going to have to deal with is the book tour. Next up next month. What's that going to be like? What kind of interviews will she do? Will she do tough interviews? Will she go on media where people will ask her tough questions, welcome her on this show? How will the book frame things? Will she talk about Joe Biden in a way different than she did during the campaign? Will she talk about why she thinks she lost some of the issues that she didn't address, some that she did? Fascinating for people in politics and media to think about. It's all going to play out. And then after the book tour, however that goes, the question's going to be what's the next chapter? What's the next chapter of her political life? Calling the system broken. For many, it's just a cop out. It's an excuse because what happened in 2024 is what typically happens in America every four years. Democracy worked, the people voted, a president was chosen on election day, took the oath of office. It's not the outcome she wanted, but it's hard to argue that the system is unhealthy. It's hard to argue that things didn't operate the way they did because Donald Trump won the election and took the oath of office. There are no doubt aspects of the system that lots of people would say are broken. But to say the system so fundamentally broken that she doesn't for now, at least one on any part of it, if she wants to see change in America, if she wants to see a change in the Oval Office, what the Democrats I've talked to about her, including some who like her a great deal, what they say is she's going to have to do the work. She's going to have to put in the time if she wants to be part of this conversation, if she wants to in fact, change America. It takes more than 107 days. All right. Tell me what you think of today's report. You can send me an email. Write to nextuphalperinmail.com Love to hear from you. You can find this show on x on Instagram, TikTok, where all the kids are getting their news. Go to NextUp Halperin. That's my handle on all those platforms. And of course, you can watch the program on YouTube. If you want to see what I'm wearing or how itchy my nose is, go to YouTube.com NextUp helper All right, next up, longtime Trump advisor and New.
- [17:15]
Corey Lewandowski
Hampshire resident Corey Lewandowski. Stay with us.
- [17:21]
Mark Halpern
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- [18:59]
Mike Duggan
Where is Cory? Does Cory have a ground game or what?
- [19:02]
Unknown
Boy, do we have a ground game. Where's Cory, Corey?
- [19:06]
Mike Duggan
Corey Lewandowski.
- [19:10]
Mark Halpern
That was the night of the New Hampshire primary, Donald Trump's first victory. And what led him on the path not just to winning the Republican nomination, but the presidency. Central to that effort, Corey Lewandowski, who joins us next up. Corey, welcome. Thank you for being part of this.
- [19:24]
Mike Duggan
It's an honor, Mark, thank you.
- [19:27]
Mark Halpern
You've been with President Trump now for a decade and not everybody has. So let's do a little how to Trump 101. How did you survive for 10 years working with Donald Trump?
- [19:38]
Mike Duggan
You know, Mark, it's been an incredible experience and it's a very humbling thing to be the first employee hired to be part of the campaign to believe in him. When most people told me I'd never work in politics again to See his rise. Look, Donald Trump is a political phenomenon. We know that. We know that he got into this race against in 2015, 2016, incredible field. And I always equated it to being on an incredible racehorse, being the jockey of a Triple Crown winner. You let him run. You don't tell Donald Trump how to do things. You let him do it. When he asks you to do something, you find a way to get it done, because his instincts are incredible. And look, like every candidate, like every relationship, there are ups and downs. But I have now had the chance to be part of three presidential campaigns with him seeing the ups and downs and seeing. Seen him transform the way America operates in the White House. And so part of it is being close, but not too close. When you're the middle of that circle, everyone's taking shots at you. So today, Mark, you can see I'm here in my home in New Hampshire. I'm blessed to continue to have the same home I've been in since before I met Donald Trump. My family still likes me. So part of it is being around, but not being around too much.
- [20:47]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. And one of the things you alluded to is letting Trump be Trump. And often he has brought you in and back in when people around him are not letting Trump be Trump. That's a good phrase, and I think I've heard you use it. What does it mean? What does it mean to let Trump be Trump as a practical matter?
- [21:04]
Mike Duggan
Well, Mark, when you think about before Donald Trump got into politics, he was incredibly successful in real estate or in television or in being a New York Times bestselling author. So letting Donald Trump be who he is, not trying to change him, to mold him to be what a typical politician was. And you. You remember this because you covered that 1516 campaign so intimately. Donald Trump didn't go to 99 counties in Iowa that every other candidate had always done. What he said was, look, I'm gonna do eight or 10 counties, and people can come see me. He didn't do all 10 counties in New Hampshire. What he said was, let's go to the big counties. Let's bring the people to me so we can have these massive events. And he fundamentally transformed the way people campaigned, and it played out to be in his favor.
- [21:45]
Mark Halpern
And.
- [21:45]
Mike Duggan
And what he really did in that campaign in 15 and 16 was he ran for governor of three states. Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. And by the time we hit Nevada, he had won three out of the four first four primaries. He finished second, obviously, in Iowa. You remember the night very vividly but he did something different. He brought the crowds to him. And when we tried to do those small, intimate gatherings that New Hampshire and Iowa are so famous for, it didn't work because of a celebrity statistic status. So we fundamentally transformed the way presidential campaigns will run that cycle.
- [22:16]
Mark Halpern
What do you think is still misunderstood about him? Not necessarily about the media, because that's a long list, but in the general public, what's something you know about him that you think people still don't quite get?
- [22:27]
Mike Duggan
I don't think people understand how generous Donald Trump is, how magnanimous he is in private, how gracious he is, how much people have respect for him because of the things that will never, ever be done or told. He doesn't do it for media. He does because it's the right thing to do, whether it's paying for funerals for people who can't afford them, or just recently I heard a story which is not a public one, but he helped someone who was in a financial crisis, and he didn't do it because he thought he would get notoriety out of it. He did it because it was the right thing to do as a friend of his who was having a financial hardship, and he went out and bailed that person out. So, you know, that generosity, the magnanimousness of Donald Trump, the self deprecating nature. Look, I was on Air Force One with Donald Trump one day and he received a phone call. One of his media people received a phone call so many years ago, and they didn't return the call. So the outlet called Donald Trump and he said, what do you think? I'm too big of a deal to return a phone call? I said, sir, by definition, you're a big deal. You're the President of the United States. He said, cory, I'm never too big to return a phone call. And what people don't recognize about Donald Trump sometimes is even though he is the President United States, he is a people person who responds to people. And you've seen it against all these campaigns. The media picks up the phone and talks to him. And that's what sets him apart from so many other politicians who shelter themselves and hide behind their advisors.
- [23:46]
Mark Halpern
All right, next time you talk to him, remind him he owes me a call.
- [23:49]
Unknown
I will.
- [23:51]
Mark Halpern
2015, you and I both took him seriously. And you were one of the few people in your profession who did. I was one of the few people in my profession did. And I think basically the same reason we saw not only that he was gifted as a political athlete, but we saw that he was talking about issues that really resonated that both parties, particularly the Democratic Party, but in some cases the Republican Party, were ignoring. How did you see him improve as a candidate in 2016 over the course of the campaign?
- [24:18]
Mike Duggan
You know, Mark, you remember that golden escalator ride when many people didn't even know what he's going to announce back in June of 2015. And then he came down and what he did is he touched the third rail that particular day, that day he announced he touched the third rail. And what he said was illegal immigration. Some, I assume, are good people, but many are not. And that really set off Hillary Clinton, and it really caused him to propel himself to the front of the line because the Republicans weren't talking about the issue of illegal immigration. And if you go back and you look at what Donald Trump had been saying for, in some cases decades, America was being taken advantage of. Illegal immigrants weren't the course of the future. We have to do better trade deals. What I saw him do over the course of that 16 campaign, and now what he does incredibly well is he listens. He proposes something. Hey, should we ban all Muslims coming into the country? If you remember that in 2016, it was a talking point that he gave in South Carolina, and he listened to a whole bunch of people, and then he went out and made his own decision. And some of the issues that he continues to address now, whether it's tariffs or trade negotiations or, or illegal immigration or closing the border, are vetted through his process of asking a whole bunch of people the same questions and then formulating his answer and then giving those responses to the media. I've seen him get better and better and better. And what he's gotten very good at this time as the president that he wasn't so good at in the first campaign was staying on message. When he's on a particular topic in the White House, he's giving a press conference and someone asks something off topic. He's. He says, that's not what we're here to discuss. Let's talk about that later. He didn't have that discipline in 2016, but he's incredibly disciplined now on it.
- [25:59]
Mark Halpern
I've been impressed by some of the people who are serving in this term who did not serve in the first term and in some cases were either no relationship with the president or maybe not the best relationship. So I want to ask you what insight you have into why these people seem to be working out so well so far as serving with the president. And the first is the chief of staff, Susie Wild, she of course worked on the campaigns, but they've had some rough moments, as you said. Most people had some rough moments with the President. Just the nature of the beast. But what can you say about why the two of them seem to work so well together?
- [26:32]
Mike Duggan
Well, look, I think, and I know this, he respects Susie immensely. She's an incredibly gifted political operative. She's done an amazing job as the Chief of staff. In full disclosure, I helped Suzy come to the campaign in 2016. I brought her with me to Israel when we did the Netanyahu race back in 2020. I've known her and her family for a long time, and she has been an incredible operative, not just in Florida, but now across the country. But what Susie has done is she has the ability, in a very calming way to keep the chaos, which is every White House, out of the general public. And Susie has a way of impressing upon her will to other people to not take these fights. And, you know, every White House has their internal fights. Whether you see them or not is different. But she's kept them very quiet. She's done an excellent job of keeping the warring factions at bay and not spilling this out into the national media story. And I really think that's her best talent. Her best gift is impressing upon people. If you have a disagreement with somebody and those disagreements take place because there are many factions inside the White House, let's not air that dirty laundry in public. Let's keep it private and let's deal with it privately. I think the President has really benefited from that strategy, and it's very different than the first term.
- [27:48]
Mark Halpern
I think that's spectacular and spot on analysis of why she's effective. And the piece of it that may be surprising to some is that the President likes it. Some people have said he likes chaos. He likes, you know, putting two advisors and scorpions in a bottle and watching them fight. But he seems to like the fact that Susie Wiles has kept the conflict either to a minimum or behind the scenes. So is Donald Trump changed his attitude about watching the staff fight as for sport or. That was always overstated?
- [28:18]
Mike Duggan
Look, I think the President is someone who likes to see individuals argue very vigorously on their positions. And we've seen that many, many times. The difference this time is those arguments, those conversations, those dialogues stay within the Oval Office. And, you know, as that's because of the leadership of Chief Wiles, what she has done is she's taken those warring factions, regardless of what the issue is. And she said, listen, we can have disagreements internally, but let's not have them externally. So I think Donald Trump really appreciates that. The other thing that Susie has done a very good job of is she's never become the story, okay? Many times the chief of staff wants to become the story. They want to be that principal spokesperson. They want to be out front in the media. She has really shied away from doing that. I think that's given her a pass with some of the attacks that probably could have been leveled against her. She's very comfortable with who she is, where she is in her career right now. She's very comfortable with her relationship with the president and that of the cabinet members. And she's also done a very, very good job, Mark. And I've seen this firsthand of not micromanaging. She's let those cabinet secretaries run their respective departments without the oversight that some other chiefs of staff have tried to impress upon them. And, and that has been a recipe for success, folks.
- [29:29]
Mark Halpern
Let me tell you, I have advanced degree, not a PhD but a master's in Susie Wiles studies. And I will tell you that is the best explanation of her success I've heard anywhere. So whether you're watching us on YouTube or listening on a podcast, if you weren't listening closely, if you were playing wordle or maybe changing a diaper during Corey's explanation, rewind right now because you will not hear a better explanation. Bravo, Corey. That was great. Scott Bessett didn't serve in the first term, wasn't really a Trump supporter and has risen to remarkable prominence in influence over economic policy, over the tariffs, over dealing with Capitol Hill. What do you know about the story of how Scott Besant worked his way into the president's life and has such trust and confidence.
- [30:11]
Mike Duggan
So I've known Scott a long time. For your viewers who don't know, he was very successful on Wall street, ran a company called Key Square. And then when the kind of financial when Covid hit, he moved down to South Carolina. Carolina and he's got two kids that he and his husband have adopted and said, listen, we can do better. You know, Scott is been a stalwart of strong America first policies from the financial side. And he has been just a phenomenal spokesman for this administration. Scott started coming to Mar a Lago to brief the president probably in 2021 after President Trump was out of office. And they started to develop a response poor. And Scott is so good on television. He's so calm, he's so smart. And listen, Scott has a pedigree that puts him with the very best and the brightest in the financial world, whether it's the Milkens of the world or any of those people that have been the luminaries in the financial markets over the years. Scott has been incredibly successful in his own right, from a financial side, from an economic side, and then he's gone out and advocated for the President's policy. So because of that, you know, there was, as you know, Mark, a. A very, very strong debate of who would become the Secretary of the Treasury. Two cabinet members both wanted it very much. Howard Lutnick and Scott Bessant. Scott ended up obviously getting that position. I think he's done a phenomenal job. And he's so good on television, he's so calm on television, he's so smart on television, that I think the President has respected that. I know today the President announced that Scott will not be the next Fed Chair. The President made that announcement today. I understand it. But Scott is continuing to drive this economy in a very strong fashion with the full support of the President.
- [31:51]
Mark Halpern
Just to clarify, you said you'd known him a long time. Have you known him before he started going to Mar a Lago in 21?
- [31:57]
Mike Duggan
I did. I met Scott in the first Trump administration, a guy by the name of Steve Bannon, maybe some of your listeners have knew of him. He said to me, hey, Corey, there's this guy up in New York, his name is Scott Besson. Would you ever go meet him? And we went up and we had a cup of coffee. And then all of a sudden, Scott just said to me, hey, you know, could I call you every now and then if I had a question? This was probably in 2017. And I said, sure. And he said, you know, Cory, you know, you seem to know more things about what goes on in the White House, even though you don't work there, than most other people that do. You know, would it be okay if we keep talking? So for probably now, eight or nine years, you know, I've known Scott. And the truth is, after Trump left the White House in 2020, I was doing my business at a large financial institution, and they decided to debank me because they didn't like my politics. And so I called Scott, I said, hey, Scott, would you ever think about helping me find another banking institution? He did that back in 2021. And so we've remained very close. I'll tell you what, for your viewers who don't know, Scott gives the best Christmas gifts. He has these cookies that he sends out from a South Carolina bakery that my kids just die for. That's the favorite thing that we get every year is a. As a Christmas gift here at our home. And so I'm very grateful for Scott and his family for sending that.
- [33:05]
Mark Halpern
Are they in a giant decorative tin?
- [33:07]
Mike Duggan
They are beautiful. Yes, they are. Scott's very rich, so I appreciate the beautiful tin.
- [33:11]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. I did not know you knew him that long. And I. But I do know about his relationship with Steve Bannon. It's one of the most undercovered stories in Trump world, the fact that those two guys are so simpatico and. And you wouldn't necessarily think it, but of course, Steve has deep Wall street ties, too. He just. He's turned those in for his populist rage. Marco Rubio. Little Marco is now not only the Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, but a very close aide to the President. So tell us that story. How did Marco Rubio go from little Marco to one of the president's top advisors?
- [33:43]
Mike Duggan
Well, I will say this, I think unequivocally, Marco, and I mean this with no disrespect to anybody else in the Cabinet, maybe the unsung hero, the. The best of the best right now. And that's a hard bar to climb because you've got so many great people in that Cabinet. But he's just done a phenomenal job. I don't know if he can do any other jobs, whether he's been the archivist, the national security adviser, the Secretary of State, or so many other things that the president trusts him with being a US Senator and stepping out of that role from the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee into this role, where when you're a US Senator, you may have, in his case, tens of millions of bosses and. And it's all been truncated down to one boss, Marco, Senator Rubio, now Secretary of State Rubio has done such a phenomenal job. He has instilled confidence with his relationship with the president. The president trusts him implicitly. I have been in the Oval Office many, many times of this administration where I have seen Secretary Rubio in there giving the president an update on what's going on around the world. And he's. Look, Marco was a very talented debater. We saw what he did to others on that debate stage. I think the president respected the fact that then Senator Rubio ran for president, did well in Iowa, third place, but has gone on to understand that President Trump's agenda for America is the right one. And Marco Rubio was the one in the Cabinet amongst many who's really stepped forward and made that incredible transition from being a U.S. senator to being a cabinet member.
- [35:12]
Mark Halpern
J.D. vance is the most likely next Republican nominee, and I think Rubio's second. Who would you say? If you agree with my top two, who would you say is third most likely?
- [35:21]
Mike Duggan
Oh, it's a long way off. Look, you know this mark politics is a finicky beast. And I always say that we may not know. There are some incredible governors out there who are doing some incredible things. There are businessmen who probably haven't even thought of. You know, Donald Trump had name recognition before he got into the race, but until January of 2015, hadn't even been to Iowa in any real way until we started making those trips. And so that was, you know, about a year and a half before. Listen, I think JD Vance absolutely has the inside track. He is a great yin to Donald Trump's yang. He has been a phenomenal advocate for President Trump on television. He's got an incredible story. He's been a great partner put. But this is a long race and I still think JD is the front runner. The stories now are trying to say Marco Rubio has done very well in Iowa in the past and may be making additional trips out there. I think this is JD's race to lose. At the end of the day, it is going to be whoever Donald Trump endorses will be the next nominee for the Republican Party. And it'll be up to that person to choose who their running mate's going to be.
- [36:27]
Mark Halpern
Dude, he's going to endorse JD Vance. Why are you joking around with me?
- [36:31]
Mike Duggan
Listen, he may be, but, you know, people might have said he was going to endorse Mike Pence, too. That didn't happen. But, you know, these are different times for different things.
- [36:38]
Mark Halpern
And did you just slip up and tell me that J.D. vance is going to be doing lots of trips to Iowa? Was that.
- [36:43]
Mike Duggan
I didn't say that, but I will.
- [36:45]
Mark Halpern
Say you said he might. I got to rewind. I thought you said he was.
- [36:49]
Mike Duggan
It's very, very important, as you know, for the retail politics and for a candidate like JD Vance who hasn't been through the gauntlet, who hasn't been through that difficult task of going to those 99 counties to establishing yourself. Listen, everybody loves JD. No one questions his credentials. He's incredibly smart, incredibly successful. He's got an amazing success story, an incredible family. By all means, he is the front runner. But you still have to go out and you got to earn it, right? You don't just get nominated like you know, Vice President Harris did. They don't just hand it to you when you're a Republican. I'm not saying there's going to be a competitive Republican primary, but, but I would guess that there are going to be multiple candidates who want to have an opportunity to tell their message to the people of Iowa, my home state of New Hampshire and South Carolina, come next year and the year after that.
- [37:36]
Mark Halpern
Well, if things stay on this trajectory, I'll tell you what I think. I think the presidential nomination fight will be like every other Republican nomination fight I've covered for the last 10 years or so, which is there's only one variable. Who does Donald Trump endorse. That's how you win the primary. So we'll see. Tell me about your feelings about Laura Loomer. What do you think of her?
- [37:56]
Mike Duggan
You know, I knew her a little bit. I saw her on the campaign trail. What I think is unequivocal is that she has a phenomenal research ability to find things that probably should have been uncovered prior to some of these people being put in their position. I have no concerns about her doing any back end research on me ever. Right. I think everything that I've ever done is widely available. But I do think some of these people, and we saw it much more in the first term than in this term, got in after they disparaged Donald Trump, after they made negative remarks of him, even after he had been successful. And I think what she's doing is she's holding people accountable. And I like that. I like, because, look, Mark, as one of the very first employees and someone who has been unwavering, loyal to the Trump family and his agenda, it pains me sometimes to see these people who had been adversarial or detrimental to him. And the truth is, Donald Trump is much nicer and much more forgiving than I could ever be. And I said that to him on so many occasions. So the fact that Laura is holding some of these people who probably shouldn't be in an administration capacity accountable, I like it.
- [39:06]
Mark Halpern
All right, there's. There's a guy named Sergio Gore. You know him?
- [39:09]
Mike Duggan
I know him very well.
- [39:10]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, I know you do. He's the White House personnel director. Shouldn't he be doing all this research before Laura Loomer swoops in and says, yeah, let's fire these 20 people like this. Seems like it's a screwed up process to have these people quit their other jobs, come in, piss off Laura Loomer and then get fired. Shouldn't, shouldn't Sergio hire her or do whatever it is she's doing. What am I missing?
- [39:31]
Mike Duggan
Well, look, Sergio has an incredibly difficult job. Four thousand plus presidential appointments, including those that have to go through senate confirmation schedule Cs. Look, he's done an amazing job of filling government service jobs. You know, some of These agencies are 95, 98% full. Never been done before. When you look at how many nominations are sitting in front of the US Senate and these guys decide to go on vacation.
- [39:56]
Mark Halpern
You know how much I hate interrupting you, but I have to interrupt.
- [39:58]
Mike Duggan
But, Mark, here's the thing. Sergio's done an incredible job.
- [40:01]
Mark Halpern
But why. But why does he keep hiring people that she then argues should be fired and they get fired? That seems. That seems like a bad system.
- [40:09]
Mike Duggan
Listen, if you told me at any company, we hired 4,000 people and there's three bad ones and say, of course.
- [40:14]
Mark Halpern
It'S gonna happen, okay, but it's not three. But it's not three. So many people have been fired.
- [40:19]
Mike Duggan
But how many. Look how many. Honestly, when you look at, I don't.
- [40:21]
Mark Halpern
Know, more than two dozen.
- [40:24]
Mike Duggan
You look at the ambassadors, you look at the cabinet. I mean, look, I think they've put together probably maybe one of the greatest cabinets ever assembled. That was at. With Sergio and the president, Susie Wiles assembling that. But you look at those cabinet members, the deputy secretaries across the agency, some of these incredible jobs. You've got an amazing group of men and women who've come to government service that Sergio has vetted, these ambassadors who've given up all kinds of things to go and take these jobs. Very wealthy guys, career guys, people who just want to do government service. Are you going to get a couple bad ones? Sure. But you've got a government agency that's got 4300 political appointees. You told me we had 10 bad ones. That's 1. 1000 of 1%.
- [41:05]
Mark Halpern
Sorry. You're.
- [41:06]
Mike Duggan
You're going to get job.
- [41:08]
Mark Halpern
You're going to get. I do. I'm impressed by the job he's done. But you're going to get Christmas cookies from Scott Bessant and Christmas cards from both Laura Loomer and Sergio. Congratulations. That's well done. You're not a government employee, but I keep reading about your role in the government. So what's your role in our federal government? What are you doing in our government now?
- [41:25]
Mike Duggan
You know, Mark, I've been very fortunate. I'm called. I am what is called a special government employee. It's a person like.
- [41:31]
Mark Halpern
Like the church lady say, well, I'm.
- [41:34]
Mike Duggan
Like Elon without 400 billion. Right. Or I was. He's gone. But listen, this is a role that many employees have in the government. Steve Witkoff has the same determination. I do what it does. It allows people to go in and not give up their careers, not give up their families. I still get to be home here in the state of New Hampshire, but I get to be engaged in some of the conversations. And so, because the Chief of Staff and the president have given me this opportunity, I. I get to engage in some discussions. I have to still fill out, so we're very clear, the financial disclosure statements. I have to still recuse myself from anything if I were involved in that would benefit me or my family personally. And I have done that. I filled out all the government ethics forms. I filled out the SF86, which is the security background check. I have cleared everything through the Office of Government Ethics. I continue to do so. I continue to have my time tracked to make sure.
- [42:25]
Mark Halpern
I'm not trying to arrest you. I'm just trying to understand what you're doing. You're working mostly with the. Mostly with the Department of Homeland Security, right?
- [42:32]
Mike Duggan
Well, that's true, but listen, I get friends across the government, so maybe Sean Duffy calls me and says, corey, can you help me and some of the other Cabinet members, you know, whether it's Scott Bessett or others, and say, hey, Corey, you know, would you help us? Look, Mark, I'm kind of a guy, for better or worse, that gets his phone call returned. And if I'm working in the government, I'm not lobbying. I don't have clients that do business in front of these places. So I get to fix problems. So if somebody calls me and says, hey. And this happens often, members of Congress, Senators, Corey, hey, we've got a problem at this department or that department, do you know who we can even call? My answer is yes. Let me make a phone call, and let me help you. If the White House has an issue that they want to help, that they need help with on a specific matter, and they think I can help, they call me sometimes, and sometimes I can help fix it kind of quickly. It just depends on what's going on.
- [43:19]
Mark Halpern
Can you give us an example of something you've done or you're doing now to help the government?
- [43:23]
Mike Duggan
Let me give you a classic example. I had a member of Congress call me and said, hey, we've got a constituent that got picked up on a detainer. You know, their family is very concerned about them. Is there any way we could make it so that this particular person who is in custody of the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement could ever, you know, have some communication. The answer was yes. I had another member of Congress who called me who said, hey, Corey, it's my understanding that there is a illegal individual in one of the municipalities of Chicago who was picked up for murder, who's now running free. Is there any way someone could go pick them up and have a conversation with them? And they did that, and they took that person who's accused of murder off the streets. So, you know, some of those things are happening. Senators call sometimes and ask if we can look into certain things. Really, it's trying to cut through the bureaucracy, Mark. And as a, as a quasi government, special government employee, having the opportunity to pick up the phone and maybe get a resolution, maybe a fast no is better than a long maybe. And sometimes I'm able to do that.
- [44:25]
Mark Halpern
Am I right? That one manifestation of your extraordinary discipline is your waist size. It's the exact same as it was 10 years ago. Am I right about that?
- [44:32]
Mike Duggan
Well, Mark, you're not wrong about that. As a matter of fact, I may be just a couple pounds lighter, but that is not, that is not without an incredible amount of hard work. And look, that's what I'm saying. Mentally sharp. So you're going to be physically sharp.
- [44:45]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. You're highly disciplined. So stick with your discipline here. One word answers. Word association. Trump Universe. Ready? One word answers. Hyphenated words. Loud. Here we go. One word answers. Here we go. Sean Duffy.
- [44:58]
Mike Duggan
Great.
- [44:59]
Mark Halpern
Melania Trump.
- [45:02]
Mike Duggan
Amazing.
- [45:04]
Mark Halpern
Don Junior.
- [45:06]
Mike Duggan
Hardworking. Is that two words?
- [45:08]
Mark Halpern
That's hyphenated. We allow it.
- [45:09]
Mike Duggan
Okay.
- [45:10]
Mark Halpern
Tucker Carlson.
- [45:12]
Mike Duggan
No comment.
- [45:15]
Mark Halpern
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean, no comment? First of all, it's two words, but no comment. On.
- [45:19]
Mike Duggan
Honestly, I, I have no relationship with Tucker. I just don't know him.
- [45:22]
Mark Halpern
Okay.
- [45:23]
Mike Duggan
You know, I, I, I just don't know the guy. And so I read what I read, but I take everything that I read with a grain of salt.
- [45:28]
Mark Halpern
All right. Speaker Johnson.
- [45:32]
Mike Duggan
Heroic.
- [45:34]
Mark Halpern
Heroic. Interesting. Charlie Kirk.
- [45:38]
Mike Duggan
Driven.
- [45:40]
Mark Halpern
Driven. These are good answers so far. Sarah Huckabee Sanders.
- [45:50]
Mike Duggan
Thoughtful.
- [45:52]
Mark Halpern
New Hampshire's Caroline Levitt.
- [45:56]
Mike Duggan
I would say amazing, but I've already used it. Spitfire.
- [46:00]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. She's become the most successful and prominent New Hampshireite to be part of the Trump orbit. As you know, next to me, you've been displaced. Now you've been, you know, by the.
- [46:10]
Mike Duggan
Way, it's so funny, we were at the airport together the other day flying back from D.C. and the crowd around her was just incredible. I sat on the other side and I said, this is great. I'm so happy for her. I've known her a long time. She's incredible.
- [46:23]
Mark Halpern
A friend of mine was there by coincidence at the airport, and what he heard people saying was, who's that guy with Caroline? That's what they said.
- [46:29]
Mike Duggan
Exactly. That's exactly right.
- [46:32]
Mark Halpern
Of all the liberal cultural institutions that Team Trump has helped diminish or destroy, the universities, the media woke corporations, woke law firms. Which project most delights you and why?
- [46:49]
Mike Duggan
I think what they've done to demonstrate the bias of the media as it relates all the way back to the fake Russia hoax narrative, where people receive Pulitzer Prizes for this thing, is the most satisfying. Because, Mark, you know this. When that whole thing transpired, the Lewandowski family had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend itself against these accusations. So seeing the fact that people don't have the same faith in the traditional media that they used to because of the false narratives that have been perpetuated for so long, gives me some solace.
- [47:19]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. Do you think that the media has been crushed now or they're just sort of regrouping and they'll come back after him? And Republicans, in other words, do you think it's really fundamentally changed?
- [47:32]
Mike Duggan
Fundamentally changed, Mark. I mean, the days of abc, NBC and CBS running the news is over. You know, the days of people turning to what used to be the most trusted name in news. CNN is no longer there. People look for other outlets because they don't believe what they're seeing anymore.
- [47:47]
Mark Halpern
And.
- [47:47]
Mike Duggan
And the bias is just so apparent that it's amazing what Donald Trump's been able to do over the last decade.
- [47:52]
Mark Halpern
Right. And lastly, the Democratic Party. There are polls that suggest the party's at a pretty low point historically in terms of its brand. It's not clear sort of what they're doing to regroup. Where are you on that scale? Do you think that Democratic Party is actually not in bad shape or worse than people think, or how would you appraise where the Democrats are now?
- [48:09]
Mike Duggan
Well, if you watch Vice President Harris last week on Late Night, and they said, who was the leader of the party? And she couldn't give an answer. It just goes to show you, there's still no prime time person out there. I believe Gavin Newsom is going to run for president, United States. I think he will be the de facto head of the Democratic Party. I think he's got a pretty good story being the governor of the, you know, fourth largest or fifth largest economy in the entire world. So look, I think that's where it is. The problem that Governor Newsom has is that the Democrats are so far left. Now, when you look at their candidates for mayor of New York and Minneapolis, he is. No, he's basically in the spot where Bill Clinton was in 1992. Bill Clinton was a Muslim moderate Democrat from a Southern state that won and appealed to a broad audience. That's basically where Gavin Newsom is trying to be. Except the far left is so dangerous that he's gonna have to find a way to appease them if he wants to get through a primary. So I think the Democratic Party is in shambles. That said, look, they raise enormous amounts of money and they have a big portion of the media on their side.
- [49:07]
Mark Halpern
All right, Corey Lewandowski, you can take the man out of New Hampshire, but you can't take the New Hampshire out of the man. Corey still finds Manchester to be a little bit loud and overwhelming, and that's why he's grounded. Thank you. Grateful to you for joining. Appreciate it.
- [49:19]
Mike Duggan
Thanks, Mark.
- [49:20]
Mark Halpern
All right, next up, the mayor of Detroit City, Mike Duggan, who is running for governor as an independent. We'll talk to him. That's next up. Here's an important question for you. Is the continued divide between Donald Trump and the Federal Reserve putting us behind the curve again? Can the Fed take the right action at the right time, or are we going to be looking down a potential economic slowdown? And what does all that mean for your savings? Here's something to consider. Diversifying with gold through Birch Gold Group. For decades, gold has been viewed as a safe haven in times of economic stagnation, global uncertainty or high inflation. And Birch Gold makes it incredibly easy for you to diversify some of your savings into gold. If you've got an IRA or an old 401k, you can convert that into a tax sheltered IRA in physical gold or you could just buy some gold to keep in your safe. First though, before you do anything, you should get educated. Birch Gold will send you a free info kit about gold. Just text the word next to the number 989-898. Again, text the word next to 989-898. Consider diversifying a portion of your savings into gold. That way, if the Fed can't stay ahead of the curve for the country, at least you can stay ahead of the curve for yourself. All right, next up, the current mayor of Detroit, Mike Duggan. He's a former Democrat all his life. Was a Democrat all his life a Michigander. Now running as an independent to become Michigan's next governor. Democrats and Republicans have a very both a very crowded primary, so the mayor won't know who he's running against until next year. And I'm having trouble handicapping the race. But joining us now, the man who has led a revitalization of his city and now wants to do the same for his state, the mayor of Detroit, Mr. Mike Duggan. Mr. Mayor, welcome in.
- [51:19]
Unknown
Well, thanks for having me.
- [51:22]
Mark Halpern
Nothing I like more than when great American cities get revitalized. And both the economic statistics and other stats, as well as your job approval suggests, in fact, you keep getting reelected overwhelmingly suggests your constituents think you're doing a great job. What would you say are the two, three, four things you've done that you think could work in other American cities to bring people back?
- [51:44]
Unknown
Well, when I ran For Mayor in 2013, the City of Detroit was in bankruptcy. I mean, half the street lights were out. If you called the ambulance, it didn't show up for an hour. The parks were overgrown, and we had 47,000 abandoned houses. There hadn't been a white candidate for mayor in Detroit 40 years, and it's an 83% African American city. But I ran by saying to people, invite me to your house and I'll show up. And I sat in living rooms and backyards and basements, did 250 house parties, talking to people about their dreams, what was going wrong. And I said to them, you know, every time the city slides, your politicians just tell you who's to blame. They blame the business, they blame the suburbs. I'm not gonna blame anybody. We're gonna build a city where everybody's welcome, everybody participates, and we got the business, community, unions to get together. And you're right. We brought in 10 new auto plants, including a 5,000 employee Jeep plant. We moved people to the middle class. We got the street lights on. We got the violence down dramatically. We did it by working together.
- [52:54]
Mark Halpern
Mr. Mayor, I'm going to ask you to be more specific than that, both about how you've succeeded as mayor and what you want to do as governor. I get your theme is working together, and I don't think anybody's opposed to that. But what specific policies did you implement to, for instance, cut down on the. On the number of abandoned homes, to improve education, to bring businesses back? Just give me some specific policies that you think worked in your city that could work in others.
- [53:16]
Unknown
So we had 47,000 abandoned houses because in the decade before I got elected, 200,000 people moved out of Detroit and They didn't take their houses with them. We did two things at once. We took the burned out houses and ran the biggest demolition program anybody had seen. But we also set up an auction site, which your viewers can see right now, buildingdetroit.org where we auction three houses a day. And when you knock down the burned out house next door, the vacant brick house becomes attractive. We've had 12,000 families move into the formerly abandoned houses and have doubled the property values in those neighborhoods. And that's why we're growing population for the first time since the 1950s. So it's an example of the kind of thing that we've done on the business side. I sat down with city council and said, look, we're not going to give cash up front to companies, but what if we say to every manufacturer who wants to come here, we'll give you access to land, which we have. We'll have the fastest permitting operation anywhere in the state of Michigan, and we'll give you discounts on future taxes. And we were able to land one plant after another with city council approval by being predictable. And it's pretty exciting. 30,000 more jobs are here today than we had in Detroit 12 years ago. And I don't think anybody would have predicted that when we started out.
- [54:42]
Mark Halpern
Let me go back to housing and then go to education. You say you knocked down some houses and then people were more attractive to move into other existing ones. Who owns the land where you knock down the houses and what's on that land now?
- [54:54]
Unknown
So I set up a process where if you own the house next door, you can pay 100 bucks and get the side lot. We've sold 25,000 side lots. If you want the house next door, you can go on our website right now, put in your credit card for $100, we'll send you the deed. And in most cases, the neighbor was cutting the grass of the abandoned lot next door. Now they've got swing sets and gardens on those lots, and it's added to the value. Instead of the government owning the property, the neighbor owns the property.
- [55:24]
Mark Halpern
One of your biggest criticisms of the state that you're centering your campaign around is education. What have you done? What's the specific thing you've done for education in Detroit that's applicable to statewide education reform?
- [55:36]
Unknown
Well, in the state of Michigan, the mayor doesn't control the schools, thereby separately elected school boards funded by the state. And probably the single biggest thing that's held back Detroit's recovery is the performance of the schools. But statewide 60% of the fourth graders don't read at grade level. This is a statewide problem. And so I am going to do what you've seen states like Mississippi do. You have Republicans and Democrats fighting in Lansing. They've changed the curriculum every two years. They've changed the test scoring process every two years. The teachers and principals don't know what to do. We're going to go back to teaching phonics, have small group sessions for the kids, have tutoring, back them up and don't change the curriculum for five years. Let the teachers teach and let's improve the school performance. There isn't anything that people don't know how to do, but our politics haven't let us just sit down together and solve problems.
- [56:33]
Corey Lewandowski
All right.
- [56:34]
Mark Halpern
I want to have a real conversation with you about what it means to be an independent candidate and an independent governor if you win. There have been three big examples of independent governors. Two were celebrities, Jesse Ventura and Schwarzenegger. I'm not sure there's a lot to learn from either their candidacies or necessarily how they governed. The governor, Maine, Governor King, was an independent and he did quite well. Now you've got a purple state. It's bluish. Your old party has controlled most of the statewide offices now for a while, but historically you've been a purple state. Of course, President Trump won it and you've had them Republican governors. So my first question is you critique the state and say the parties aren't working together, stuff isn't getting done and education is one thing. You cite your governor, who's a member of the party you were part of until recently. Her popularity is pretty high, too. If the state's such a disaster, and again, not a gotcha question, trying to understand how you think about governing in Lansing if the state's such a disaster with the divided legislature, the upper chamber, Democrat controlled the Republicans control the House. If it's such a disaster, if governing is a Democrat or Republican is such a disaster, why is she so popular?
- [57:48]
Unknown
Yeah, Governor Whitmer is popular. And if you've seen this, she recently vetoed 13 Democratic bills. She can't get the legislature to take up road bills. And I would say the problem is this. As the mayor, I've worked with the Republican Democrats and we've turned Detroit around. But in Lansing, if you run, and this is why I'm not running as a Democrat, if you run as a Democrat, all of the Republicans line up against you because you tried to beat them in their state rep and state Senate races, which is What Governor Whitmer is experiencing. And the left wing of my party is not big fans of mine. They aren't necessarily supporters of Governor Whitmer right now. So if you end up in a situation where the Republicans are against you for partisan reasons and you can't hold your own party, you get nothing done. We saw that in this state two years ago. There was a Democratic trifecta, Democratic governor, Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and it ended up blowing up. The house just went home two weeks early because the right and the left in the Democratic Party kept fighting with each other. And I think the governor would have liked to seen the Democrats say, how about we deal with the reasonables on the Republican side? Let's not do this on a totally partisan basis. And I'm gonna come in and I'm saying this. I'm not getting involved in the state rep. And the state Senate race. I don't care if you support the House Democrats or the Senate Republicans. I've got huge support from Democratic labor unions and the African American ministers. I've got huge support from the Chamber of Commerce and the business community. And I'm coming in saying I'm gonna work with the reasonables on both sides. And if the people of Michigan are fed up with politics as usual and want change and deliver a mandate for that, then it's my job to do what Angus Kagan did in Maine. He got reelected with 57% of the vote as an independent because he successfully governed from the middle as a Democrat.
- [59:44]
Mark Halpern
As someone prominent in your state and of course, presiding over the largest city, you've had some positions that aren't pure Democratic orthodoxy. But you told an interviewer recently you're not changing any of your positions now. So again, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just trying to understand your theory of the case here. You've got ties, long decades of ties to the Democratic Party. You still have all your Democratic Party positions. How does that make Republicans want to work with you? Simply because there's an I after your name.
- [60:14]
Unknown
Again, I ran as a nonpartisan mayor, so mayors in Michigan don't run in parties, even though I was a member of the Democratic Party. But I had lots of support from the Republican business establishment as well as the Democratic union establishment. But I am not a typical Democratic politician, okay? I never supported open borders. I was against defunding the police. I was vocal on these things and had people in my party against me. I haven't changed any positions because I wasn't probably the typical Democratic politician in the first place. But I hit the point where I realized it'd be a lot easier to get elected as a Democratic candidate for governor and it'd be a lot harder to govern. And if you watch what Gretchen Whitmer just did, she went to Washington, D.C. she worked with President Trump, saved the Selfridge air Force Base 5000 jobs in Macomb county by working with the Republicans, and the Democratic Party has been attacking her nonstop. I just realized there's a reason why the Democratic Party in America is at a 35 year low. They're more interested in fighting with the Republicans than they are in getting anything done.
- [61:27]
Mark Halpern
Okay, let me ask you some questions about politics. Again, not as gotchas, but to get a sense of where you stand on things and your position vis a vis the two parties. Why did Kamala Harris lose Michigan to Donald Trump?
- [61:40]
Unknown
I think because the blue collar America and blue collar Michigan was not with her. They did not believe that she was articulating an agenda that was good for them. I spent a lot of time with UAW members and other folks where the union leaders endorsed one way and the members just weren't buying it.
- [62:01]
Mark Halpern
Why did the Democratic Party force Bobby Kennedy off the ballot? So he wouldn't be able to run as a Democrat for president in 2024.
- [62:11]
Unknown
So at least in Michigan, the Secretary of State actually left Kennedy on the ballot, which. Which was a different issue there.
- [62:19]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, but in other states around the country, why did you. Why did your old party. Why did your old party.
- [62:24]
Unknown
I couldn't tell you. I was in the national Democratic strategy circles.
- [62:28]
Mark Halpern
Okay, let me ask you it this way then. Do you think it was a good thing that Democrats tried to keep Joe Biden from having competition?
- [62:37]
Unknown
You know, I think in retrospect, everybody wishes that President Biden had gotten out of the way earlier. And it was a very hard thing to watch.
- [62:47]
Mark Halpern
Okay, but you want to address the Democratic Party's efforts to keep him off, keep people off the ballot.
- [62:52]
Unknown
Yeah. You know, again, I was not part of the national party scene.
- [62:56]
Corey Lewandowski
Okay, fair enough.
- [62:57]
Unknown
Joe Biden was very good to Michigan and good to Detroit. And it was a very hard thing to watch in that debate how much he had slipped that Joe Biden four years before would have gotten reelected in Michigan.
- [63:11]
Mark Halpern
All right, again, we're talking to the mayor of Detroit. Mike Duggan, who's running for governor as an independent, tried to do something difficult to do in our politics. Who's the best governor of Michigan in your lifetime and why?
- [63:23]
Unknown
Bill Milliken certainly was Very good. And you appointed my father a judge, so I'm probably biased there. I grew up in a family with a Republican, Republican parents. And Gretchen Whitman had a lot of successes.
- [63:38]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. What did. What did they do that makes you say they're the most successful?
- [63:43]
Unknown
So Milliken people probably won't remember in 70s and 80s, was very much a moderate governor, had a lot of support from the city of Detroit, was committed to the cities as well as the state as a whole. He left. I think he served three terms and left as a very popular governor. But since then, it's not just Michigan, but nationally, the toxic Republican versus Democratic atmosphere has really held Michigan back since President Reagan.
- [64:12]
Mark Halpern
Not including President Reagan. Who's the best president of the United States and why?
- [64:18]
Unknown
Barack Obama was, I thought, outstanding.
- [64:21]
Mark Halpern
Again, the best of all of them, I would say.
- [64:26]
Unknown
Yeah. At least.
- [64:29]
Mark Halpern
What did he do that makes you say he's better than the Bushes, Clinton, Trump, Biden?
- [64:35]
Unknown
Certainly the economy was very good under Clinton. I think Obama went a long way in this country in toning down the hateful rhetoric. And the economy of this country did well. And again, he was very supportive of me and the city of Detroit, so helped get the city out of bankruptcy. So I guess I have some personal feelings there.
- [65:00]
Mark Halpern
Okay. And again, you've served as your third. Finishing up your third term as mayor, and so you've seen a lot. Who's the worst president since Reagan and why?
- [65:10]
Unknown
You know, I'm not going to get into that one. I'm trying to stay away from the divisive stuff right now.
- [65:15]
Mark Halpern
Okay. What do you like that Donald Trump is doing as president? What's good for Michigan that he's doing?
- [65:22]
Unknown
The tariffs could work if he would get them right, and I'm hoping that he does. No place has been devastated by the bad trade agreements of the 90s more than Michigan. It killed our manufacturing base. And the right kind of terrorists on China and Mexico could bring jobs back to this country. The real problem right now is that Canada is right across the river from us and is a huge part of our manufacturing base. Detroit produces. We have three assembly plants in Detroit with 12,000 workers, and they produce lots of cars with parts from Canada. And these Canadian tariffs are essentially tariffs on cars produced in Michigan. But if we could get to the point where we reduce the Canadian tariffs and. And targeted the Mexican and Chinese tariffs, you could bring manufacturing back to the state again.
- [66:13]
Mark Halpern
Not many folks run and win outside the two major parties in this country. There are strong candidates in both parties. I don't know who the nominees are going to be, as I said, of the major parties. But how would you describe your level of confidence you're going to win this race as an independent to be governor of Michigan?
- [66:29]
Unknown
If you had seen when I started out as the first white candidate, 40 years in Detroit and everybody said I had no chance, I didn't spend any time talking about confidence. I talked about what I was going to do differently. And I'm going everywhere saying, if you're tired of politics as usual and you want somebody to work with both sides, vote for me. If you like what's going on. You got good choices on the Republican and Democratic side. And I think you've seen from the fundraising totals, from, from the gains and the polling and the like, there is an enormous desire in this state to get rid of politics as usual.
- [67:06]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, I totally appreciate your. The fact that you've done a great job raising money and you've raised money from both Democrats and Republicans. And of course, because the duopoly taking some heat for that when it should be considered A plus. Besides education reform, what are the major things? And again, besides changing the tone and promising to work with both parties, what are the major policy changes you want to bring to Michigan?
- [67:29]
Unknown
So Michigan leads America in people under 30 moving out. A population loss is second only to West Virginia for the last 30 years. We are not building the economy of the future. We aren't bringing in the tech jobs that we need. And if you look at our policies, and again, this is my issue, we had under a Democratic governor during the Great Recession, huge tax breaks to the auto companies they called mega credits. Then a Republican governor, Rick Snyder, came in and said that was wrong and he stopped all tax breaks. Then he realized he'd gone too far, put in some limited breaks. Then we had Ford send two battery plants to Kentucky and Tennessee, and we reacted the other way and did $2 billion of giveaways for projects that by and large haven't materialized. I've been successful in bringing $10 billion of investment into Detroit because for 12 straight years I've said, here's what we're willing to do. We'll help you get the land, we'll help you fill your workers. We won't give you money up front, but we'll give you discounts on the new taxes you're going to pay for us. And having a policy for 12 straight years, turns out is really good economic policy. And I think the business community in the state is behind me me because they think I can convince Republicans and Democrats bringing in the tech economy shouldn't be partisan. This should be something we all agree on. And I think they believe I can forge that kind of plan, that it won't matter if there's a Republican or a Democratic House. These are things that aren't going to change back and forth.
- [69:03]
Mark Halpern
Is there something a governor, an incumbent governor, is doing now from another state that you. Has caught your eye and you bring to Michigan as a policy idea?
- [69:13]
Unknown
I'd have to give that some thought, Really. I am consumed by the way Michigan is sliding. And I just give you an example. Two weeks ago, Governor Whitmer had proposed with our sliding test scores that cell phones be banned during instructional time in school. The bill came up for a vote in the House. It failed by three votes because all 4:52 House Democrats voted against it, even though the governor wanted it. They voted against it because the sponsor was a Republican in a swing district and they want to win his seat. So we just watched 52 Democrats, many of whom had spoken out in favor of the bill, vote against it to deny one Republican credit. This is the kind of thing that we have to fix. So I'm not focused on other states. I'm focused on what's holding Michigan back.
- [70:05]
Mark Halpern
Okay. Governor Snyder, Republican, was known as one tough nerd. The Democratic incumbent's known as Big Gretch. Do you have a. Do you have a nickname people should know?
- [70:16]
Unknown
No. There was a rapper that gave Governor Whitmer that nickname, but so far he hasn't dated me.
- [70:23]
Mark Halpern
Have you had a nickname in your whole life?
- [70:25]
Unknown
Not that I can remember. They just called me by.
- [70:28]
Mark Halpern
All right, I'm going to ask you a trivia question. What? How many states have some. Some of their land north of the southernmost point of Canada? How many states would you guess have land north of the southernmost part of Canada?
- [70:40]
Unknown
Okay.
- [70:41]
Mark Halpern
I ask you this because it's applicable to Michigan.
- [70:43]
Unknown
Michigan for sure. Maybe Alaska.
- [70:46]
Mark Halpern
How many do you think, total states?
- [70:47]
Unknown
I'll say two.
- [70:49]
Mark Halpern
Two. The answer is 26.
- [70:51]
Unknown
26. Seriously?
- [70:53]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, 26. Now, I'm going to ask you another trivia question, involves Detroit.
- [70:57]
Corey Lewandowski
I'm going to give you 26 states.
- [70:59]
Unknown
Are north of Canada.
- [71:01]
Mark Halpern
You'll pull the map, Governor, and you'll see. It's crazy, but your Windsor. Windsor goes really far down. I'm going to give you four cities.
- [71:07]
Corey Lewandowski
And you look out my window at Windsor.
- [71:09]
Mark Halpern
I know. All right, you'll take a look. I'm going to give you four cities and you, in alphabetical order, you put them over from east to west. Okay.
- [71:16]
Unknown
Okay.
- [71:17]
Mark Halpern
Atlanta, Detroit, Los Angeles, Reno. Order from east to west. Atlanta, Detroit, Los Angeles, Reno.
- [71:24]
Unknown
Atlanta, Detroit, Reno, Los Angeles.
- [71:28]
Mark Halpern
Incorrect.
- [71:29]
Unknown
How could that be incorrect? I drive southeast to Atlanta.
- [71:33]
Mark Halpern
You got the first two right.
- [71:35]
Corey Lewandowski
Reno is actually Reno's west of Los Angeles.
- [71:39]
Mark Halpern
It is.
- [71:40]
Unknown
Okay, just get it.
- [71:41]
Mark Halpern
You'll get out your US map. You'll check them both out.
- [71:43]
Unknown
Were you a geography major in college?
- [71:45]
Mark Halpern
No, but those are two of my favorite trivia questions. And they both relate. They both relate to your state. So I figured I'd ask you.
- [71:51]
Mike Duggan
You. You.
- [71:52]
Unknown
You got me a Boldo.
- [71:53]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. Take a look at the map. Mayor. Mr. Mayor, really grateful to you, I'll tell you, as a, as a traveler, so grateful to you for revitalizing your city. And I hope other mayors around the country will look to your example for cleaning up a great American city whose constituents and people deserved way better than they got for many years. So thank you.
- [72:12]
Unknown
Well, thanks for having me on your quiz show, Mark.
- [72:15]
Mark Halpern
Okay, again, this Mayor Mike Duggan of Detroit running to be an independent governor of a state that has a lot of red, blue and purple folks. Wish him luck. And that is all for today's program. We'll be back on Thursday with an all brand new episode. Make sure you subscribe and download nextup wherever you get your podcast so you always know what's coming next up.