← Next Up with Mark Halperin
Next Up with Mark Halperin
Mark Halperin's New 8 for ’28 Rankings and the Debate Over Democrats' Future
01:09:06
Mark Halperin’s reported monologue unveils his latest “8 for ’28” Democratic presidential nomination rankings, explaining who’s rising, who’s falling, and why he now believes for the first time that a surprise candidate could shake up the race. Plus, Mark and Yemisi Egbewole kick around Kamala Harris’s 2028 prospects and whether Graham Platner’s past could derail his political future. Also, former Laura Bush chief of staff Anita McBride reflects on the Bush family’s legacy and the transformation of the Republican Party. SelectQuote: Compare top‑rated life insurance options. Visit https://SelectQuote.com/mark to get the right coverage at the right price. Chapter: For free and unbiased Medicare help, dial (262) 454-0503 to speak with my trusted partner, Chapter, or go to https://askchapter.org/mark *Paid Partnership*” Chapter and its affiliates are not connected with or endorsed by any government entity or the federal Medicare program. Chapter Advisory, LLC represents Medicare Adva...
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Mark Halpern
Hey, I'm doing it right now.
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Mark Halpern
Welcome to next up everybody. Mark Halpern here, editor in chief of live Interactive video platform 2way, your guide to everything. Next up. Super excited about today's show. It's so massive we almost went to a five hour episode. We're gonna cram it into the normal length. Big thanks to all the nexters for being here and for answering the call. Many of you have subscribed to the YouTube channel. As we get to the hundred thousand subscriber milestone, let's push it over the top. If you're within the sound of my voice or watching me perhaps on YouTube and, and you haven't subscribed yet, please do. We're very close. We just want to go over it. It's a nice milestone and it comes with some secret benefits from our friends at YouTube. So please subscribe today. Take a picture of yourself next to the computer screen or with your phone screen, grab whatever it is and tweet at me that you've You've become a YouTube subscriber. You'll automatically be entered into a contest to win a free autographed copy of one of my books. So please subscribe. Send us your proof on Twitter and or you can email to us whichever you want. Don't want to miss the opportunity to get a free book and to help us get to 100,000. So now on to the main event. It's the first Tuesday now of June, which means it's time of course for a brand new June installment of our exclusive segment here, 8 for 28, my rankings of the most likely Democratic nominees for president. I will unfurl that for you in just a moment. Then two really smart, interesting guests. Nina McBride will be here. She's the former chief of staff to Laura Bush. She's involved in two massive projects, a book and a set of essays connected to, in the first instance, the first ladies of the United States. And in the second 250th anniversary of the country commemorated by a bunch of great living Americans writing about our past presidents and first ladies. And then also Yemeni Bawali will be here. We'll talk about what's going on in Maine with Graham Platner and what's going on in Texas and her view of my 8 for 28 list. Yemen, see, of course, is a friend of mine from the morning meeting in two way, as well as the founder of Podium Strategies and a former top official in the Biden White House press office. All right, let's start with 8 for 28. As always, a reminder, this is just about who's going to be the most likely Democratic nominee says nothing about the general election. And it's early. And a lot of the people I do my reporting with say, oh, Mark, it's so early. What is early?
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But this thing's going to be honest before you know it.
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And I talked to lots of people this time. This time I talked TO More than
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50 people, mostly Democrats, but some Republicans, some independent analysts. And I asked them the question of who do you think the nominee ranking 1 through 8 are most likely nominees and why? And we dig into the whys. And this month also, we're going to dig into what do the people on the list need to get done this year to increase their chances of winning? Okay, so here's this month's list. It's almost exactly the same in terms of the names as last list. Gavin Newsom still number one. Back at number two is Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania, flip flopping with Kamala Harris. She was in the two slot last month. Now she's down in the three slot. Pete Buttigieg still at number four, Bernie Sanders, my most controversial pick at number five, John Ossoff moving up to number six even though he's disavowed any interest in running. J.B. pritzker, governor of Illinois, back on the list. And Rahm Emanuel still on the list
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but dropping down to eight.
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So again, my eight more likely Democratic presidential nominees in order, Newsom, Shapiro, Harris, Buttigieg, Sanders, Ossoff, Pritzker and Emanuel. Person who came off my list is Andy Beshear, governor of Kentucky. And you know, other names that people press to include besides Governor Bashir, include Ro Khanna, aoc, Governor Moore, Senator Booker. Those are the ones who aren't in here. So let me tell you what's going on. This is a confusing time because obviously people are a lot of focus on the midterms, a lot of focus on Iran. And it's been a lower key month last month than we've seen previously. Some of the people who've been very much in the spotlight not getting as much coverage, starting with Governor Newsom, which we'll talk about. The other thing that's really making it
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difficult to two things making it difficult to analyze this field as intensely as I'd like.
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One is it's a weak field.
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I've told you this before, nothing personal against the people who might run, but this is not the strongest field I've ever seen. In fact, in many ways it's one of the weakest, maybe the weakest.
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And so we're talking about nobody really
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breaking out in the way a Bill Clinton did in 1992, Barack Obama did
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in 2008, Hillary Clinton. The second thing is the DNC still
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hasn't set its nominating calendar. And that's a big deal because getting elected, if you look at history, with
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few exceptions, involves winning one of the
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first two or three states in a primary or a caucus.
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Democrats are largely getting rid of caucuses,
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so primaries this time.
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The DNC met last week to talk about it.
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They're going to continue to meet about it, but until they set the calendar and then we see how the candidates perform in those states where once they set the calendar, the early travel to those states will increase.
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Then we'll get a better sense of
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the whole field and who's got the
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ability to communicate with voters. So the combination of those two things and my strong belief that some of these people on this list and some
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of the others talked about will not end up running has my reporting yielding for the first time a change, something people have urged me to say for a long time, but I've never said
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it because I didn't believe it till now.
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I do believe there could be a white knight possibility this time. I do believe that the nominee could be someone not on this list of eight or even on the extended list
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of the other names.
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I mentioned you up to 15. I don't think it will be a
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business person or a military leader.
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But I think that fundraising, which is
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such a big barrier to people running
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because it's so daunting how much you
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have to raise, as well as concern about personal and family scrutiny.
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I believe those two factors will cause
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a lot of these people not to run. And that's going to leave a gap. It's going to leave an opening for someone else to come in, maybe another governor who people aren't talking about, maybe a retired politician. We'll see. I'm not going to speculate about names today, but I'm doing more reporting on it now that I think it's a possibility. But let's talk about our list and where people stand first. Is Gavin Newsom still number one? But in my reporting, a consensus view was he's kind of lost a little bit of his oomph. He's kind of stepped out of this warrior mode that he had earlier in the year, hasn't really been in the news as much. And one thing that caught some of my sources, the attention of some of my sources was how he's approached the governor's race in California to replace him. Not only has he not endorsed a candidate in the race, but he's been kind of mealy mouthed about it. He's been kind of process oriented. Here's Governor Newsom explaining his. On his decision not to endorse on the governor's race to succeed him. This is S8, please.
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Gavin Newsom
It's my intention not to get involved in the primary. It's my intention to, to do everything that needs to be done to make sure that there's not a lockout for a Democratic choice in the general election. That's my focus. I was there myself and Governor Brown was sitting here saying, in essence, what I'm saying today drove me crazy, I admit. When I was the candidate, I was like, what the heck? And now I'm, you know, I need to call Jerry and apologize maybe for my feelings. You know, maybe if you talk to him, tell him I get it now and anyone, you know, in four years, eight years, you'll be doing this again to someone else and they'll probably be saying the same thing.
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Mark Halpern
So he's basically saying, you know, I get now why sometimes governors don't endorse, but to a lot of my sources, that, that position, that sound bite is representative of what they believe has been missing from Newsom for the last few weeks, maybe longer. And, and what they say is the imperative for him in 2026 is to reestablish himself as the warrior front runner. They, they think that he's He's. He's taken away. He's given away some of the edge he previously had by being so strong, so aggressive, traveling the country, taking really firm stands on things. So they say that's what he needs to do. Being number one comes with risk. But as I've told you before, there's a myth within political circles that say, oh, it's dangerous to be the front runner. You don't want to be the front runner. The reality is, in almost every cycle, with the exception of 2008, the Democratic frontrunner, once there's been one established, has been the nominee. So what they say he needs to do is keep that front runner status clear. Second, Josh Shapiro, I move him back up to number two because he did take some steps in the last month to be a little bit more out there. He's running for election. There are a lot of things on the line in his own state, not just his own race, but some House races, some state legislative races. And what my sources say the 2026 imperative is for Josh Shapiro is, is to simultaneously tend to his knitting at home in Pennsylvania, do what he needs to do to win by a lot, get reelected, help help with his coattails, but also to use that to truly prove himself on the national stage, to not assume that simply by being a candidate in Pennsylvania, he's going to get what he needs on the national stage. He did an interview with Politico in which he talked about this concept. Here he is, Governor Shapiro, Pennsylvania. S9, please. But this could be a factor down the road if other opportunities do present themselves. Right?
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Josh Shapiro
Well, I'm not looking down the road. I'm looking at how we can win a reelection for governor, how I can help deliver for U.S. house seats, and how I can finally flip our state Senate, which has been in Republican control since 1992. That's what I'm focused on.
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Mark Halpern
There's all. Now, one of the raps against Governor Shapiro in terms of positioning to run for president is that he's been too provincial, he's been too focused on just assuming, hey, if I do what I need to in Pennsylvania, if my approval rating's high, which it is, that that's enough to springboard in the post midterm period to being a strong candidate, to appealing to activists and donors and people in the early states. And what these critics are saying, or these analysts are saying is he needs to not just take for granted that by doing well in Pennsylvania, that proves out on the national stage they think he needs to do things, to play a little bit more into the national audience, as he did in that political interview, to make it clear to folks that the story he has from Pennsylvania is something people are aware of this year and takes advantage of. Number three on my list, Kamala Harris. Such a puzzle. Some of my sources say she shouldn't even be on the list, that she's not going to run, or that if she does run, she'll be an absolute failure. And then I have people who laugh at me for not putting her at number one on the list. I think number three is just about right. But what they say she needs to do this year is she needs to get the establishment of the party and the media to think anew about her, that they're all focused on the failure of 2024. They're all focused on the things she has not done well as vice president, as a presidential candidate and in her post vice presidential time. They want to see her get back in the swing of things where people thinking new, they. They say, whoa, this is a new and improved com laris. There's reason to believe she's used her time in the wilderness, not running for governor of California to position herself to do better. Here she is recently talking about an issue where they think she can make a lot of hay, which is on voting rights. The Supreme Court struck down the Voting Rights Act. There's been redistricting involved. They believe this is an opportunity for her to get people to think anew about her political support amongst black voters, particularly black women, but also to think anew about her seizing the moment, to be able to take an issue that is of great concern, energy and emotion for the Congressional Black Caucus in Congress, for black voters around the country, for progressives around the country, and seize the initiative. Here she is talking about the Voting Rights act from last month. This is S2, please.
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Kamala Harris
The way that the decision is written. They are unapologetic in trying to say, well, well, it's okay to play politics with people's right to vote, with their access to the poll. It's okay to play politics. And here's how I think about it. What they are doing is they are backdooring racism behind politics to get to this decision and to justify them. What is happening in particular right now in all the Southern states, and this is obviously a time for us to fight.
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Mark Halpern
So the Voting Rights act and some other issues, the news give her, in theory, the opportunity to get people to think and knew about her. But I'll tell you the expression, there's no second act in American politics. It's not true. Richard Nixon got people to think and knew about him. Others have pulled that off. But it's hard in this current age. And the critics in the Democratic establishment, some critics in the progressive movement, certainly Republican critics and media critics, they're locked in. And so much about her presentation in that video, so much of how she deals with her public image is just a reminder of her loss in 2020 four of the shortcomings in her communication skills that a lot of people see. And so how she gets people to think anew is a big challenge, I gotta say. I won't say it's the most challenging thing on this list of 2026 imperatives, but it's a big one. And some people I talked to said that's her challenge to get people to think and knew about her, but she doesn't seem to believe that. She doesn't act like that. A lot of the same old, same old. And so let's see if she decides she wants to get people to think and do. And then how she executes on it. She has been quietly hiring folks to work with her to build out her grassroots, to build out her capacity to run for president. The question is, will she tend to this public image thing, which, as you've heard me say before, it's the biggest thing. And if you want to run for president, you must be in control of your public image. You cannot let your opponents, your enemies, your detractors, define your public image. And right now, I think she's still not achieving that. All right, number four, Pete Buttigieg. I continue to be higher on him than a lot of others, but. But I had less pushback this month in including him at number four than I've had in the past from some of my sources. His goal is simple, as in terms of 2026 imperative, it's to show he can win black support. He's going to have other problems if he runs. It's not the only problem, but it's become kind of a fetish of people in the party and of the press to say, well, the guy's got no support in polling from black voters. You can't be the Democratic nominee without that. There are literally polls where zero black voters say they're for him. He's got to fix that. And you've seen him do some travel, some meetings to try to correct that. But if he can get some, maybe some endorsements, if he can do some media appearances, if he can maybe even move up in the polls with black voters, at least a little bit that would take a big step towards people thinking, well, he can't possibly be the nominee. They'll move on to something else and say because he's gay or you know, his record in transportation when he was secretary, whatever it is. But he's got to solve this 1. The 2026 imperative for this guy is binary. He's got to end this year demonstrating to people that he can win black support or people, including donors, will be less likely to support him. Number five is my biggest one is Bernie Sanders. Most of my sources, I got to say most, not all, take him off the list. He's not going to run. Given his age, he's not going to run. I have to say I feel so strongly about this. The 28 for 28 is, is, is
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some brain and some gut. And my gut says that Bernie Sanders maybe should be higher on the list. Again, that's controversial. But people say, well, it won't be Bernie Sanders, it'll be aoc, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. It'll be Ro Khanna. Those are the two names cited as the heirs to the Bernie Sanders movement. I've said before, I don't think AOC
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is going to run.
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It's why she's not on my list. I can't put people on the list if I don't think they're going to run. And Ro Khanna clearly wants to run. He's hired away some of the standard staffers from 2016, 2020, as is AOC. But people say, well, that means Sanders
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isn't going to run.
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If he runs, most of them will come back. Look, Sanders leads the movement. These other people are maybe heirs to the movement, but he still leads the movement. I've been struck in the last month he's been talking a lot about AI. He wrote an op ed in the New York Times that said basically the government should get a lot of the revenue of the AI companies, a lot
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of the, the value of the AI
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companies and ownership in them and, and therefore the wealth could be spread around to all the people. Very, very robust, very eye catching op ed piece in the New York Times. It was not, it was, it was
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not beloved by the industry, by the industry. But, but I heard from people, they
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were paying attention to it. I don't think, I don't think that you get, people like Rokhanna and AOC get the same attention. And then he's been on this big kick about AI saying the United States and China should work together on AI Collaborate. Here's Bernie Sanders on that this is S3, please.
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Bernie Sanders
Good news here, and it's not widely known, is there are a number of Chinese scientists who share the same concern that American scientists are worried about. And that is if we don't get a handle on AI, they're going to be enormous existential consequences. So I think in a sane world what happens is the leadership of the United States sits down with the leadership in China and leadership around the world to work together so that we don't go over the edge and create a technology which could perhaps destroy humanity. But I would say there are Chinese scientists fairly high up in the government who share those concerns.
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Mark Halpern
Now look, he's not the biggest policy wonk in the world and he's a flawed candidate in a million ways, including his age. But my strong gut remains that lane has to be filled. There's nobody else on my list of top eight who are part of the progressive movement. There are some who would draw support from the progressive movement, but there's no one else who's a pure progressive candidate who believes in full throated single payer health care, full throated all the other elements the progressive movement. And Bernie Sanders does. And I just think the vacuum is going to be huge and he's going to look at this field and I think my gut tells me he's going to make the plunge even though a lot of people don't think he will. So what's his 2026 imperative if he wants to be the nominee? Remind everyone he's got no real competition as the leader of a movement. Ro Khanna has support from the movement. AOC has support from the movement.
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Commercial Narrator 3
We.
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Mark Halpern
But there's no one in the country right now who is the real leader of the progressive movement in the country. And as I keep telling you, he basically would have been the nominee twice, but the party establishment stole it from him. I don't believe in 2028 they'll be able to steal the nomination from him if he goes for it. Jon Ossoff, next running for reelection in Georgia. He's just, he's so impressive to so many Democrats. He's young, he's fresh, he, he's, he's the front runner to win reelection in a, in a red purple state. And even though he's disavowed interest, listen to him talking about Donald Trump at a rally a couple days ago and, and you'll see why Democrats find him so appealing. Is S1, please.
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Jon Ossoff
He's trying to put his face on the money. Did you see that? He's building a monument to himself. But see Atlanta, he's doing these things now because no one will honor him when he's gone because he's a failed president and a national disgrace.
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Mark Halpern
Too often I, I, I dismiss people who say they're not interested in running. I take them at their word. I should have learned from Barack Obama in 2008. That's a bad idea. He says he's not interested. If he romps to reelection, which again in Georgia would be winning by three or four points, which he could, there's going to be a lot of interest in him, a lot of interest in him. He's a great organizer. He's great on media. Really, really somebody to watch. Truly believe that Jon Ossoff may end up being the person who inherits a lot of support from the establishment and from the left if others pass on the race next. Number seven, J.B. pritzker, governor of Illinois. What's his imperative? According to my sources for this year, it's to be a midterm superstar, go out and campaign for others. He's not going to have trouble becoming a governor of Illinois again. And so what does he do around the country? How in demand is he? And to, to, to maybe use his wallet, maybe to show people what some of that billions can pay for. He's, he's, he's someone who, I'm not inclined to rank on the list at this point, but so many of my sources said it's a billionaire who will spend a lot, who's popular with the base. So can he this year become a midterm superstar? Can he demonstrate that the things that people are attracted to about him, his personal wealth, his capacity to drive a message, his framing of Donald Trump. Let's see how he can do that in the context of campaigning for others in the midterm. And then lastly, last on the list, number eight, is Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel has been very aggressive. We've talked about this on the policy primary, traveling around the country, talking to reporters to put himself in the mix. He's doing great with elites, particularly media and Republican elites, some Democratic elites as well, who he's worked with in the past. But can this former mayor, former ambassador, former White House chief of staff, former congressman, can he get actual voters, including progressives, to be engaged and excited about his candidacy? Here's Rahm Emanuel talking about reading in Mississippi. Number 30. Number S4, please.
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Rahm Emanuel
Children start dropping out of college in third grade. It's why I believed and why I went to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, to see the Mississippi miracle gone from 49th to 9th in the country in reading gains for children at every and most importantly, 50% of our kids are not reading at grade level. That's on us and that's a failure we can't accept. I just went to Hanover, New Hampshire to lay out a grand bargain for college education today so you can get a college degree in three years, not only four. A family making less than 200,000 is going tuition free.
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Mark Halpern
So can that guy get real voters, human beings, to be excited and engaged? That guy, because he doesn't have a job, will benefit once the calendar set and once there's early states, you can bet he'll continue to do what he's already done, betting on what the early states will be spending a lot of time, for instance, New Hampshire to try to win over voters. But. But a lot of the elites who like him say, I don't know if the voters will like him. And the reason I say he's got to win over progressive voters is I think this remains his Achilles heel. This is the biggest barrier to has being successful in the nomination process progresses will remind people about his record in Chicago when he made enemies of unions and and other groups on the left. We'll see if he can meet that imperative and get real voters rather than elites excited. All right, that's my 8 for 28. Curious to know what you think about the list. Who's too high, who's too low. Let me know what you think. Send me an email, let me know. Like I said, who's too high, who's too low. Give me. Send me your thoughts and we'll feature your reaction on 8 for 28 hate. Send me an email at nextup halpern@gmail.com that's nextup halperinmail.com Let me know who should be higher, who should be lower, who's off the list, who should be on, etc. You might get a special shout out here if we like what you send. Make sure of course you're subscribed to NextUp on your YouTube channel so you can watch full episodes, catch every new report and get exclusive bonus content and help us get to 100,000 subscribers. Go to YouTube.com nextup halperin or if you're listening to the podcast version, always have your downloads done and checked. We want Nexters to grow and multiply, so please tell all your friends if you haven't yet how much you like the program. Thank you for that. And how they should also become a subscriber on YouTube and to the podcast version. Very grateful to you. Next up and joining me now, a fan favorite. We'll talk more about 28, but also about some stuff going on in the news. Yemiseg Bowale is here. Former chief of staff and advisor in the Biden White House press office and the founder of Podium Strategies. She's a Democratic strategist and my colleague at 2a in the morning meeting. Yemassi, great to see you.
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Yemeni Bawali
Good to see you. Mark. Been a minute.
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Mark Halpern
Yeah. You've been on TV a little bit lately. And on Monday night on cnn, asked about Graham Platner, you said this.
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I think we have lost the plot on authenticity. I think Graham Platner is cosplaying working class. He wears it like a Halloween costume.
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Yemeni Bawali
And that has been placed on him
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Mark Halpern
by the same people who have run a lot of progressive candidates across the nation. In this pursuit of getting to know the everyman, we keep picking these people who I think show the worst parts of society. If I am to believe that Graham Platner can relate to everyday Americans, and that means I am to believe that everyday Americans are okay with Nazi tattoos because they get them accidentally when they're drunk or because they served in the military, they have very regressive views on race and on gender. I just cannot accept the fact that to gain the working class, we have to dress up people who show the lowest of our value.
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So a lot of reaction. I heard about that. What have you heard about what you said, if anything, since last night?
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Yemeni Bawali
You know what? I've heard from a lot of Democrats that are saying thank you for saying it out loud. I feel kind of crazy. And I do think that there is maybe a hold online, like a cabal of people online who are just Graham Platin or Diehard. They're like, this is the Hill I will die on. And it's maybe starting to dilute a lot of the common sense I think people in the party in general have. And all we're saying is, look, I don't live in Maine. I will not vote in Maine. I understand that. But I am allowed to have a discussion about the character qualities of a candidate that will enter Congress and have a role in the Democratic Party.
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Mark Halpern
Everybody's got to make their own decision. And I never judge anybody because politics and life. You have some Democratic senators who have reaffirmed their strong support for Graham Platner in the last couple days. He's done not just alleged to have done. He's done a dozen things that in a normal time would be disqualifying what separates someone like you who speaks out with the clarity you've spoken out with and many others? Not everybody from the ladies of the View spoke out in a similar way. What separates people who are speaking out and saying, platner should not be a senator, he should not represent the Democratic Party from those who are rallying around Platner? What's the common thread between the two camps?
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Yemeni Bawali
I think it's two buckets, right? There's a big camp of progressives who really banked their name on Platner. I mean, Senator Bernie Sanders was an early adopter. Senator Elizabeth Warren said, and I quote, that's my kind of guy. There are people from the start that attach themselves to him, and they're just going to have to see it all the way through or they're going to have to kind of start a counter campaign of, I made a mistake, I was disappointed. And so, yeah, I think they're folks who got on the ride early and they're just. They're going to go all the way. And then also, Graham Platner represents an ideology that fits for a lot of people, especially people who have made certain purity tests. Right. Graham Platner, living in Maine and representing Main Earth, has decided, too, that Gaza is going to be a big decisive issue for him. And there are people within the party who, for them, they will choose no one else but somebody who has that same policy position. So no matter what, I think there are people that are saying, I'm riding Seabiscuit all the way to the end, no matter where the finish line is. And for me, I think the finish line is down at the bottom. Because if this is what we are learning about Graham Platner now, I don't understand how people aren't a little bit worried. I'm nervous for him for what could come out, and I'm sure he knows what's coming out. I'm nervous for him for what could come out just a couple months from now or even sooner.
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Mark Halpern
Yeah. I want to come back to the question of what can be done for those in the party who are worried about him as a general election candidate. But do you think he'll be the nominee?
- [30:11]
Yemeni Bawali
I do at this point, I think I know people are saying, you know, well, Janet Mills says all I did was stop campaigning. I'm still on the ballot. I think momentum is a bit lost here for her, and unless people were going to rally around her, I know that there's another person, David Costello, and I'm being a realist. I do Think he is going to be the person.
- [30:31]
Mark Halpern
Yeah.
- [30:32]
Yemeni Bawali
And I do think that. That it should be a part of the discussion.
- [30:35]
Mark Halpern
Right. So the primary's next week. Then there's about another month where he could, in theory, be replaced on the ballot by the Democratic Party of Maine. If you were a strategist for Senator Schumer and he said to Yemen, see, we gotta get this guy off the bat. He cannot win a general election. What could Senator Schumer's team do to try to make someone else the nominee, if anything?
- [30:57]
Yemeni Bawali
I mean, he's gotta pump money into Janet Mills. I mean, part of why she said she stopped her campaign was because they had no funding. They were, they were at a financial point where they couldn't continue campaigning. But I'm going to be honest. I think Senator Schumer maybe made a mistake in the beginning with just picking Janet Mills, because either way, nobody can deny that there is a feeling almost like a desperate hunger here, especially in Maine, for an anti establishment candidate. And picking Janet Mills did not fulfill that hunger for those who needed something different. If a person was going to run against Susan Collins, who frankly, is a formidable candidate. And I do not understand why we play this game where we think that she's. She's just grandma holding a pocketbook and very easy to beat. She's been around for a minute, Right?
- [31:41]
Mark Halpern
So just to play out another beat, the options that Senator Schumer has, if the pollster for the Senate campaign committee came back and said, we could spend a billion dollars in the next week for Janet Mills, she cannot beat Platner in a primary. Is there another alternative? Could he go to, for instance, Senator Sanders and say, please get this guy out of the race? Is that something like that, an option to try to get Platner to withdraw by saying, you can't win and we won't support you, or some combination of those things.
- [32:10]
Yemeni Bawali
It's not. I think reasoning with Senator Sanders in general has never been an option for any other senator in the Senate. So I doubt Chuck Schumer's gonna be able to do it. Plus, Senator Sanders has already doubled down after the sex scandal that this is the person he has chosen and that that is just a decision, a choice that happened in their marriage and something for them to work out. I don't think there's any reasoning with the people who have already staked their. Their reputation and word on Platner.
- [32:35]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. Would you prefer he. If it. If it is Platner, Collins, Would you prefer that Collins win the.
- [32:47]
Yemeni Bawali
I think that's a tough one. Yeah, I think that's a tough one because Susan Collins, to me, is not a huge issue. She's a moderate Republican. She's voted with Democrats before. To me, Susan Collins in the Senate does not break my conscience.
- [33:03]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. What if Senator Platner called you and said, I've seen you on tv, I've heard what you said, saw you with Mark Halpern, and I really want you to help me win this race. I want you to help me do the best I can for your. For our party. What, what would you. What would you. Let's say you agreed to do it because he offered you a lot of money or whatever. What would. What would you advise him to do to try to not just win the race, but to repair the feelings that you and the ladies of the View and others have about him?
- [33:32]
Yemeni Bawali
Okay, One, my answer would be no. But two, if we are doing this, in this scenario, we've got to get better on these answers. Look, nobody is looking for the Boy Scout, especially for a place like Maine. That's a place. Angus King's an independent. Susan Collins is an unconventional Republican. For this time, we get it. They don't do run of the mill politicians, and that's great, but you have to show contrition for your past. And so we've got to go all the way back to the start. And let's get some real answers here. You started out with Nazi tattoo, the SS symbol, the Totenkopf. And you said, accidental and drunk. And you reasoned it away. That, to me, lacked any remorse. We can sell this idea that you don't have to live the perfect life to be a politician. God knows that politicians today are not the perfect people. The standard has changed, however. You have to show that you have grown from those mistakes and from that behavior. And I don't think that Graham Platner has shown true ownership. He's brushed it under the rug and even at times just said, we'll look at Susan Collins. James Talarico is in a different position. James Talarico can say, well, look at Ken Paxton. I don't know if you can say, well, look at Susan Collins. And it hits at that character marker that you want it to do.
- [34:50]
Mark Halpern
You want it in terms of different answers, better answers from Platner? Do you want different facts, different attitude? Like, what's different? Because he said he was, you know, when he was younger and he was going through this hard time in his life, he did things that he regrets and don't. Don't represent the way he is. Now, is that. How does that differ from what you want him to do? Facts or attitude or both?
- [35:11]
Yemeni Bawali
Well, he says this should not be the focus. Even his wife, when she was, when he, when he sent her out to do that statement, by the way, that also, I would have also said she is not the person to do cover for you here. You are the person to do coverage for yourself. She is not the person to explain your behavior. Your behavior was a negative to her. You should have the responsibility to explain it. So I would have done that from the start. But also a lot of what they keep saying is we're focusing on the negative here. We're focusing on the negative here, and it's taking away from this race. Correct. That is the point. And it's a campaign. They were always going to focus on the negative. So your inability to look hard at your life and understand, not through your lens, not through the military lens and your group and your friends, but through the everyday average American, how they would interpret it, your ability to see how people see you is a weakness here. And I would also tell him, where were the people that you served with? The best people that can vouch for your growth and who you are today are the people that were with you yesteryear. And I've not seen those people come.
- [36:17]
Mark Halpern
No, It's a great, It's a great point. Last one on Platner. And then I want to talk about Talarico in Texas. You mentioned, I know you agree everybody's flawed. There are no perfect candidates. People supported Bill Clinton. People support all sorts of flawed people. People. People are looking at supporting people who might run for president who have flaws. What is it about, about Platner that crosses a line for you? Is it, is it, is it one or two of these specific things? Is it your view of his character? What, what, what makes him a bright line for you that you, you can't even say with confidence that you hope he wins the race against a Republican?
- [36:57]
Yemeni Bawali
I would say from the start, the tattoo, I think it's interesting. I think more and more Democrats start kind of going, getting nervous with the sexting and the kick and maybe messages or things that might come out of that. I think we're at a point in politics where people having affairs or stepping outside of their marriage isn't as earth shattering as it might have one day been. So that, to me, honestly, it wasn't the. Oh, my gosh. That it didn't stop time for me. The tattoo to me was a moment because everybody brushed by it and said accidental and drunk. And they were like, by tomorrow a new news cycle will happen. And it did kind of peter out a little bit. But I just think about that his admission of I did not know what it was and waking up every day and looking at it in the mirror. And we've seen videos of him drunk in bars with his shirt off, talking to people, nobody asking what it was, him declaring that he's a history buff. I just, I don't like when a politician thinks that I'm dumb. And I think Latin from the beginning thought people would be stupid. And it's the same thing I said about the Halloween costume. I'm gonna be honest, when I first saw an ad about him, I bought it. I went, whoa, what is this guy? Who is this? And then just with the little bit of digging and it was Hotchkiss and it was the loan for the house and it was mom subsidizes the oyster business by buying in bulk for her restaurant. When it was all of this. It's just kind of like, what are we saying to people, to a working class America, when we won't even give them somebody who will be honest with them about what it takes to make it in America. And a lot of people don't get a six figure loan from mom and dad to make it.
- [38:45]
Mark Halpern
Well said. You know, the other thing about him that, that's rubbing some people I'm talking about the wrong way is he's great at firing up the populist anger at the status quo as people name an idea he has about how to fix anything. You know, it's really short on, on substance. If he, if he was some brilliant policy guy who had the secret to coming to the Senate and really changing things. But, but instead he's just, he's just great at talking about corporate interests in Israel and other things that fire people up but don't necessarily solve anything.
- [39:14]
Yemeni Bawali
Can I say too, Mark, I think that's such a good point, especially because he's running, shouldn't forget Collins position as chairman of Appropriations. He's running against somebody who is, has the ability and the power to bring billions of dollars back to Maine.
- [39:29]
Mark Halpern
Yeah.
- [39:29]
Yemeni Bawali
And she, she's going to run on that and he's going to have to say, okay, kick out this, this person in a position of leadership and put me in, and I'm going to be able to advocate for you in the same way. That's a, that's a tough one. And I don't think he's thought enough about that. So, yeah, he's got to dig deeper on policy and what he can deliver.
- [39:48]
Mark Halpern
I agree with you, although I will say the rejoinder is pretty powerful. Just rhetorically, he says, if she's so great for Maine, if she can bring so much back, why is, why is gas so high? Why is housing so unaffordable? And I think there's something to that. Susan Collins has been a senator for a long time, and the state still has a lot of problems, which is why he's doing well. Talarico, is it possible for. For Democrats to lose Maine but still take the majority? It is if they only lose it because of Platner. But they'd almost certainly, at that point, the math dictates winning Texas. I hear some people say Talarico has a 0% chance of winning, and I hear some people saying he's got as high a 40% chance of winning. Where are you on why? On his prospects of winning the general election.
- [40:31]
Yemeni Bawali
I think it's a tough uphill climb. When it was Talarico, Crockett and Allred in that primary, I said, you know, good luck to whoever gets the crown. But we're looking at a state that has Greg Abbott as the governor and has reelected Ted Cruz comfortably each and every time. And the argument from a lot of people in the Democratic Party in Texas is we've got progressives that are just waiting to be ginned up and go out to the polls. Okay. But you've got to get them at their max, enthusiastic capacity. And Talarico, to me, there are people who are just going to hedge because of some of, some of the things that he said in the past. And to me, when I look at a page of Talarico statements and I look at Ken Paxton's life, to me, Talarico would be tall. Rico is an easy ballot, but I'm not in Texas, so.
- [41:23]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, yeah. I still think there's more coming on him as well, and it's going to be difficult for him to overcome just the redness of the state, but we'll see. I want to show you my 8 for 28. I did my monologue on it earlier in the program. I want to ask you about a couple of candidates on my list. Number one, Gavin Newsom, as we saw before. Number two, Jai Shapiro. Number three, Kamala Harris. Four, Buttigieg, Five, Bernie Sanders, et cetera. I want to ask you about Kamala Harris in my reporting on this. Just such a divergent view. Amongst. Again, I mostly report with Democrats, but some Republicans, some Democrats tell me she should Be number one. And some tell me she shouldn't be on the list. In the top eight. Where are you on her and her prospects and why?
- [42:03]
Yemeni Bawali
I think your positioning of her works great. To the people who say she shouldn't be on the list. That is your own personal bias, and I understand that is your frustration with the race that Harris ran the 107 days. And it's bleeding into this because if you look at the demographic that we all know she still has a very, very strong hold on, there's nobody that should be saying she shouldn't be on the list. Okay. She has more of a hold on African American voters, especially black women, which we know is the most consistent voting base in the Democratic Party. She's more of a hold on those voters than say, a Pete Buttigieg.
- [42:36]
Mark Halpern
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Yemeni Bawali
So to me, there's no real world where you put somebody like Rom or Pete on a list and you, and you don't have Harris. It's name id. It's voter confidence with a base. I understand why people don't want her on the list, but common sense dictates she remain on the list.
- [42:54]
Mark Halpern
Brilliantly said. And why not hire then? She's the income. You know, she, she was the nominee last time. The two guys I have ahead of her, Newsom and Shapiro, certainly are not perfect candidates by any means and have less of a hold on certain constituencies. Why shouldn't she be number one?
- [43:08]
Yemeni Bawali
Newsom has, Newsom has to stay number one at this point because he has the fresh new factor. I think he and Kamala Harris obviously have similar name id, but Newsom just, he gets the edge because he hasn't had to try and run before. So I think he stays up there even though I will say he's kind of waned a little bit for me, especially because I haven't seen him wield any of the real influence he has when it comes to this California governor's race. He's remained really, really silent. And to me, 2028 will come. But you've got races happening in your state now and I haven't seen you use your political power as I think he should.
- [43:52]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, absolutely. I mentioned he's just been kind of mealy mouthed about it and as you suggest, doesn't, doesn't speak a guy who's, who's got full swagger right now. The others, Bernie Sanders people are telling me, mark, don't put him on the list. He's not going to run. And as I talked about earlier, there's a Sanders Lane and the two People who were talked about AOC and Ro Khanna. I think a, I don't, I still don't think AOC is going to run. They both hired a bunch of Sanders people away. But I just keep looking at him despite his age and saying, why not the real thing? Why not the guy who was almost the nominee twice? Why not the guy who actually leads a movement as opposed to being the heir to a movement when he's out there talking vibrantly? So make the case whichever way you want. For, against. Should I have Bernie Sanders on the list or not?
- [44:39]
Yemeni Bawali
And why I think that you should have Bernie Sanders on the list because he can always toy with the idea of running and, and he already has a built in base. So if he snapped his fingers and wanted to start a campaign tomorrow, he could, he has the foundation and structure for it. However, I think Bernie Sanders, if we are moving away from age, if our argument with Donald Trump and Joe Biden is politicians are aging and we've got to get a new era and generation in it, then Bernie Sanders doesn't fit into that argument. And I do think that voters on the progressive side may love Bernie Sanders, but they also love the people that he has sired and like mentored and brought up and would look to them to run instead.
- [45:20]
Mark Halpern
Is there anybody else besides AOC and Ro Khanna who you think could be that air this cycle?
- [45:26]
Yemeni Bawali
No, but that also might be my, a little bit of my.
- [45:29]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, yeah. I don't see anybody else and I've asked a lot of people because, because I'm not sure either of them are going to make it Yemen. See. Very grateful to you for being here and love the clarity you have on on these issues as always. So thank you.
- [45:43]
Yemeni Bawali
Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it.
- [45:45]
Mark Halpern
All right, next up or deep dive into what's going on in Iran with President Trump and the jam he's in. That's next up. All right, everybody, now it's time for some life talk. Life insurance talk, that is. You probably have it. But do you know how much you're paying for it? The truth? You likely pay way too much for too little. Plus, if coverage is tied to your job and then you're laid off, you're left with zero protection. That's a pretty scary thought. But it's simple to fix with select quote, unlike the one size fits all company Selectquote's license agents work for you. In 15 minutes they compare top rated providers to find the perfect fit for your health and for your budget. Best of all, their advice is free. Don't worry about medical exams. They have partners offering same day coverage up to $2 million without a doctor's visit even with pre existing conditions like diabetes. Select Quote finds the protection you deserve Life insurance is never cheaper than today. Select Quote they shop, you save, get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com Mark Again save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com Mark Twain today. Go now get started@SelectQuote.com Martin hi, I'm
- [47:04]
Angie Hicks
Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair done well. Kitchen sink install done well. Deck upgrades done well. Electrical Upgrade done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the the difference between done and done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com your
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- [48:07]
Mark Halpern
All right, next up, I want to talk about Iran. Look, anything could happen is very fluid situation. But I'll tell you why I am more bearish than some analysts are on the prospects of a deal between the United States and Iran. First of all, on Hezbollah and Lebanon, the president is trying to keep the Israelis from having a veto over the deal. The Iranians say if there's war between us and Hezbollah, no deal. The President's trying to get Benjamin Netanyahu back in line. But if it's true, as some analysts believe, that Iran doesn't want the deal, that they want to stall every day closer to the midterms makes President Trump's leverage less robust. If it's true that Iran really wants to protect Hezbollah, the chances that there'll be more conflict between Israel and Hezbollah during a 30 or 60 day negotiating period, it's very high. So that could scuttle the deal at any moment Second is on the strait,
- [49:01]
getting the strait open, saying, okay, the strait's gonna be open, both sides can do it. That's a challenge. How does that work? The modalities of it, you talk to military experts, oil experts, shipping experts. Getting it back open is complicated. And of course, once again, it takes one person with a slingshot on the Iranian side to, to, to scuttle the whole thing. And how that, how that opening is described, how it's implemented, that could scuttle the whole thing. And then lastly is the nuclear stuff. I've said this for so long and I feel like a lonely voice on it. The president needs a deal at a minimum, where Iran says in the initial deal, we are giving up our nuclear program. We are not going to have a nuclear program. I just don't see Iran saying that. It's, it's, it's such a big step for them where decades, their whole posture towards the world, towards power, towards intimidation, has been basically, we're not going to say it aloud, but we're going to be a nuclear, nuclear power. And now they'd have to say the opposite. They'd have to say, no, we're not going to be a nuclear power. I just find it hard to believe they're going to say it. And to the extent that's watered down, it's going to be hard for the President to get that through what he clearly cares about, which is the view of the new neocons in the United States.
- [50:16]
So there's a problem here that doesn't deal with the substance, it deals with the symbolism.
- [50:22]
Any deal that Tehran agrees to, I think the, the, it's going to be a compromise. But if they agree to it, I
- [50:28]
think the neocons in the United States
- [50:30]
are going to say it can't be a good deal by definition. If Tehran says this is acceptable, it
- [50:35]
can't be a good deal.
- [50:36]
And of course, a lot of them simply want more military action. They want the President to bomb more and send more missiles in. So there are other issues that could, that could keep this from happening. But the question of Lebanon, the question of the strait, the question of nuclear, I just find it hard to see how these are going to be solved. That doesn't mean that in a week or two there couldn't be an agreement. But watching that agreement get implemented and sustained, I think is going to be a real challenge. The Iranians want money to give up their nuclear, nuclear, nuclear material and program. I don't think the President can give them money and try to be cute. And get money from some third country,
- [51:15]
maybe, maybe that'll fly.
- [51:17]
But this, this the, the reason why it's been hard to get a deal. None of those things have gone away. And some of them, again every day closer to the midterms have been exacerbated. So when people say to me, I, oh, the president should just walk away, or he's going to just walk away, he can't walk away. The strait still closed. And Iran would not open the strait on terms the United States could accept. They could leave nuclear for another day. It'd be politically embarrassing for the president. But because of the strait, he cannot just walk away. So some of my sources say more stalemate. And I would say right now that's the leading option. But those who are waiting every day and hear the president say, oh, we're about to get a deal, be skeptical. Be skeptical, unfortunately, because from a, from a practical point of view, the better the war ends, the sooner the war ends, the better. But be skeptical of the prospect of a deal or that if there is a deal, that it gets implemented. These issues that have been at the heart of the matter for quite some time are still very much present, according to all the conversations I've had this week. All right, Next up, Anita McBride, a great eyewitness to American history and a great chronicler of American history as the former chief of staff to first lady Laura Bush. Anita McBride is next up.
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- [53:40]
Angie Hicks
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie when you use Angie for your home projects. You know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com.
- [54:14]
Mark Halpern
all right, next up, some great American history and some important eyewitness to what's happened in the recent past. I get so frustrated, not just younger people, but other people in our society failing to appreciate some of the smartest people around who can tell us not just about the recent past in terms of policy, but also personality and also the richness of American history. Couldn't be happier to be joined now by someone with that level of experience who, who's got two projects I'm super interested in. Anita McBride is here. Former chief of staff to first lady Laura Bush, the director of the First Ladies Initiative at American University, co author of the essential book Remember the First the Legacies of America's History Making Women, and then finally the co chair of In Pursuit, a project that's part of commemorating the 250th anniversary of the country that has got great historicity to it. Anita, welcome. Thank you for being here.
- [55:07]
Anita McBride
Thank you for having me. Mark, I'm excited to talk to you today.
- [55:10]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, talk about your career and, and people who aren't familiar with what you've done. Just explain the, the, the privilege you've had to observe American government, American society. What's, how did, how did you start in it and how did you get to pass through all those great personalities and opportunities?
- [55:28]
Anita McBride
Well, thank you for framing it that way as a privilege because that's exactly how I see it. And I started in the most basic way. I was a campaign volunteer as a senior in College. It was 1980 and it was the Reagan campaign for president. And I was at the University of Connecticut and went to Hartford to work in the campaign headquarters there, doing the most basic of things, calling, you know, people, telling them to vote. I mean, everything was a lot less complicated than a lot less electronic. It was really, you know, person to person. And so that's what got me my start. Reagan won and Reagan, the Reagan Bush ticket won and I moved to Washington, but, you know, really knew no one and had to get, you know, started here and continued to volunteer. But it wasn't until 1984 in the reelect that I joined the campaign and in the national headquarters was a vastly different experience, of course, meeting more people and having an opportunity to network. And I got hired to the White House the week after the reelect, doing the most basic and lowliest of jobs. But I loved it. I was a correspondence analyst. I was reading the mail that was coming in to the President of the United States. And back then it came in big bags from the postal service that you had to open the envelopes and. And I was trained how to read the mail to the President by a woman who had been reading presidential mail since Franklin Roosevelt's time. But, you know, just an incredible start and one that I always encourage young people to say, volunteer on a campaign. You know, put, put yourself behind supporting a candidate. You never know where it's going to lead. But for me, it led to, you know, working in the Reagan and then Bush 41 and then back in the Bush 43 administration and personnel management and administration, and then ultimately in the second term of George W. Bush and working for Laura Bush as her chief of staff, which was a real capstone to my career.
- [57:38]
Mark Halpern
The Bushes now are seen in a different light within the MAGA Republican Party than they were not that long ago. And incredibly, a pivot point for me was Jeb Bush's presidential campaign in 2016 was seen by the establishment as the front runner. And now when you talk to young MAGA people, if they think of the Bushes at all, it's in a negative way. What's happened to the country, to the party, to the Bush family over this period of time. In just a decade, from Jeb being seen as the front runner to now a lot of MAGA Republicans not having respect for what they accomplished, for what they stood for.
- [58:14]
Anita McBride
You know, a couple of things to respond to that. If you remember in 2016, it was even Barbara Bush, Jeb's mother, who said, I think we've had too many Bushes in the country. This is not intended for anyone to, you know, be a forever career. Although that was a difficult time for the Bush family, of course, to see Jeb treated in the way that he was. We know he was a successful, you know, two term governor in Florida. And the Bush family really have made, you know, enormous contributions to the country for many, many years. But I think, you know, the party goes through revolutionary change. 1981 was a revolution too, for the Republican Party with Ronald Reagan sort of casting off the past and the establishment of Republicans and changing, you know, the view of how the party should operate. And so we go through cycles, you know, like this. Our politics change, the personalities Change. It does underscore how a single person's communication can, you know, can change an entire direction of the country. But I will say this, though, it doesn't. And I say this to a lot of my, you know, friends that I worked in the Reagan ambush administration, particularly the Bush administration, the work that he did in a pivotal period of time for the country. Controversial, yet also consequential. I mean, as you know, mark, we're the 25th anniversary of 911 this year. Hard to believe. And it did change a lot for President Bush and his intention for leadership. No matter what the hard, you know, work that people engaged in, the, the honor that they devoted to their jobs, it does not diminish their service.
- [60:08]
Mark Halpern
Yeah, well said. I mean, again, I try not to be an old fuddy duddy or someone who doesn't appreciate, try not to appreciate the current, the current mood. But it makes me sad, genuinely sad to hear the denigration of both bushes, of John McCain, of Mitt Romney, by people who really don't have any qualifications in most cases to say anything negative about him because they don't know what they did and they don't know the times in which they operated.
- [60:32]
Anita McBride
Yeah. And I think that that's important point is putting in perspective the period of time in which he operated, where the country was at that moment. And I will say that, you know, President Bush, President George W. Bush really has just continued to stay focused on the principles and priorities that were reflective of his administration through his institute, through the Bush Presidential center, and really has not, you know, dipped his toe into criticizing what's going on now or what the, what the president is trying to do now because he also understands he didn't like it when he was criticized as by the formers either. And he's just not going to go there. It's not his way.
- [61:23]
Mark Halpern
Yeah. And again, I just hung up on Jeb. But Jeb really was one of the most successful conservative governors in American history, literally in the history of the country. And these people who denigrate him now who say, oh, he would have been a horrible president, look at what he did in Florida. If you believe in the conservative agenda, truly almost nobody more successful or as successful. All right, I want to move on to your two big projects which are so interesting. There's so many things commemorating the 250th anniversary of America. I'm paid to keep track of it and I can't. I learn this stuff. And I confuse this project with this. In pursuit brings together two incredible resources in this country, our presidential centers and substack. I'm a big fan of Substack. Explain to people what in pursuit is and how they can enjoy it.
- [62:11]
Anita McBride
Okay. So thank you for asking about that because it is an exciting project in the 250th anniversary of the country gave us an opportunity to launch something like this, which it is. It's Lessons in Leadership through the prism and the lens of those who saw it firsthand. And that's presidents and first ladies. And these are short essays that are written by prominent Americans, former presidents, former first ladies, the Chief justice, the United States, other authors, scholars, journalists who have contributed an essay on a president or first lady of their choice. Some we assigned out to people and to draw a lesson in leadership. A single nugget that we can learn from that period of time from that particular individual could be success, could be a failure, a challenge that they responded to. In fact, today, the day that we're speaking, former President Barack Obama's essay came out on Abraham Lincoln. And it's an excellent essay about Lincoln's approach to government was to focus on the common good. And George W. Bush wrote the first essay that was released on President's Day about George Washington, about how his presidency is defined by humility and knowing when to get off the stage. So again, I'm very excited about being part of this. It's part of a broader initiative of more perfect, which as you say, is a collaboration of presidential centers and almost 100 historical sites and other organizations focused on civic education. But this particular project, which these essays live for free on substack, the essays on presidents are released every Tuesday. Essays on the First Ladies are released on the Thursday of that week. And this will continue throughout the entire year. Easy to read, easily digestible. Each author of the essay is recording the essay in their voice as well. And which C SPAN is carrying those. These will live on in perpetuity. And we're also using this material and working with other partners to develop materials and lesson materials for all ages for elementary school children through iCivics, which was Sandra Day O' Connor's big push that she thought that the state of civic education in our country was abysmally low. And so a state established an organization called ICIVICS focused on this young ages and working with other partners for high school curriculum and college curriculum around these essays.
- [65:05]
Mark Halpern
So people can watch them on c span.org but where can they read them? Just go into Google and put in what substack in Pursuit.
- [65:12]
Anita McBride
In Pursuit.subspec substack.com okay.
- [65:17]
Mark Halpern
And ladies and gentlemen, again, I'll tell you, put down Netflix, put down a baseball game, although George W. Bush would like me to say, say that. But take some time in this important year for the country to read these. They're substantive, they're well written, they're historic, and they celebrate the best of America. They're not red versus blue. They're the best of America, of our civic values, of our understanding of leadership and what makes America special. It couldn't be better conceived. And congratulations on you and your colleagues for booking it. These are hard bookings. You got to have these folks, have these folks do it. And I can tell some of them were actually written by the people because I know their writing style. So congratulations on getting these busy famous people to actually do the writing. Extraordinary. And again, there's a lot of commemoration, but not very many things that are this important. So thank you for that. Let's talk about your book, reissued book, Remembering the First Ladies, the Legacies of America's History Making Women. This is an incredible topic. And the first lady you worked for as chief of staff, Laura Bush, really one of the most impressive people I've ever met. I don't know her well, but I know a lot of people who do know her well. What an extraordinary person she is. A lot of focus on the first Ladies now, conversations about the East Wing being taken down. The current first lady had a movie about her that got a lot of attention. What should people think about or know about the concept of the office of the first Lady?
- [66:36]
Anita McBride
Yes, thank you. Great question. And I'm so delighted to be devoting so much of my time these days on this topic of first First Ladies and highlighting their contributions throughout our history because they are lesser known, underappreciated to a certain degree. But this is a, this book, which was about four year, three years of research, which started, frankly, before this version, which is the regular public reader version, started with a textbook book, Marc, that was launched in 2023 that we published, called US First Ladies Making History and Leaving Legacies. The first textbook at any level, at any time in our history, if you can believe it, again, with the attempt of getting the stories of these women and their contributions to our country since its founding into the classrooms and inspire and interest in learning about them. Because our view is, and I have two co authors, our view is, you know, we can't understand or fully appreciate our history if we're not telling the story of these women as well. And starting with. And the book covers from Martha Washington to Melania Trump. So we cover everyone and their impact on our diplomacy, on our politics, on public policy, on communications, and how they have over the arc of our history when women didn't, starting from our founding till today, but when they didn't even have rights and still could use their position in a way that demonstrated leadership. And here's a couple of just little examples. In 1890, Caroline Harrison is First lady, wife of Benjamin Harrison. She's approached, like all first ladies are, to highlight a project or support an initiative or raise money for a project. She's asked by Johns Hopkins Medical School to help raise money for the medical school, and she agreed to do so if they would admit women for the first time to the school. And they did. This is 1890. Women still don't have the right to vote. I mean, that's just one example of how this platform for a First lady can be leveraged and used in ways that really does help the country move forward. Now, not everybody rose to the occasion. Some first Ladies were reluctant, whether by illness or just the fact that they were in mourning, like Jane Pierce, whose child died right before her husband was inaugurated. Inaugurated, and she spent two years up in the residence in mourning. But nevertheless, their stories all need to be told. They're part of the full context of our history. And I feel, you know, I had a front row seat to this role and was exposed to it every single day, certainly as chief of staff, but also in my service in the Reagan administration, in the Bush 41 administration, and seeing first ladies and their impact and the role that they played and the input, you know, the impact of the
- [69:54]
Mark Halpern
East Wing, ladies and gentlemen, at this time when the country's somewhat divided, I'll say with understatement, at a time when we're trying to understand the best of America. So grateful, Anita, for you coming on, but also for you devoting your time to these two projects. There's a lot of junk content in the world right now. If you want a book that tells you about the best of America, interestingly told, incredibly important characters who are undercovered, go buy yourself a copy of Remember the First Lady's the Legacies of America's History, Making Women so important that we understand it. And I've covered every first lady more or less since President Nancy Reagan. What an incredible group of people. Just an incredible group of people, and you can't hear their stories enough. And then again, in pursuit, essays from great folks. President Obama on Lincoln, Bill Clinton on Roosevelt, Laura Bush on Lady Bird, Maria Shriver on Betty Ford, Bret Baron, Dwight Eisenhower. Extraordinary group of people. Writing about an extraordinary group of people. People. And great. Anita, just so grateful to you for bringing that to life at this important and vital time for us to understand the best of America. Best of America, people and traditions. So thank you for that.
- [70:56]
Anita McBride
Well, thank you for covering these topics, Mark. I. I appreciate it.
- [71:00]
Mark Halpern
All right, thanks to Anita, thanks to Yemeni, and thanks to you all for being part of it. We'll be back on Thursday with a brand new episode. We'll talk about this week's election results and a lot more. Remember to subscribe on our YouTube channel. We're getting really close to 100,000 followers and I think we're about to go over try to be the 100th follower, hundred thousandth follower on YouTube and of course go listen to us as a podcast and make sure you got automatic downloads set there. Grateful to have you all as Nexters. We'll see you on Thursday. Join us again so you always know what's coming. Next up,
- [71:35]
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