May “8 for ’28” Democratic Nominee Rankings, Plus: Megyn Kelly on Tucker Carlson’s NYT Interview

Summary

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Next Up with Mark Halperin

Episode: May “8 for ’28” Democratic Nominee Rankings, Plus: Megyn Kelly on Tucker Carlson’s NYT Interview
Date: May 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Next Up with Mark Halperin features a two-part exploration:

1. The May edition of “8 for ’28”—Halperin’s monthly, insider-driven ranking of the eight most likely Democratic contenders for the 2028 presidential nomination, with special attention to major changes and the interplay between progressive and establishment candidates.
2. Media Critique and Conversation—A candid, insightful interview with Megyn Kelly discussing the media’s evolving relationship with conservative figures like Tucker Carlson, the mechanics of media bias, and challenges for public figures in a polarized environment.
   The episode concludes with an in-depth conversation with Molly Hemingway (editor-in-chief, The Federalist) on her new biography of Justice Samuel Alito, the inner workings of the Supreme Court, and Alito’s enduring influence.

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1. “8 for ’28” – May Democratic Presidential Nominee Rankings

(01:01–21:40)

Main Theme

Mark Halperin unveils his latest monthly rankings (“8 for ’28”) of the Democrats most likely to clinch the 2028 presidential nomination, detailing notable shakeups, additions, removals, and his methodology—a blend of insider sourcing and personal political gut. The analysis includes a lively discussion of intra-party trends, establishment bias, and how recent events shape possible candidacies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Updated “8 for ’28” List

• Biggest changes this month. “I think these are pretty seismic.” (02:54)
• New names: Bernie Sanders, Andy Beshear, Jon Ossoff
• Dropped: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Mark Kelly, JB Pritzker

Current Rankings (as of May 2026):

1. Gavin Newsom
2. Kamala Harris (up from #4)
3. Josh Shapiro (down from #2)
4. Pete Buttigieg (down a bit)
5. Bernie Sanders (new to the list)
6. Rahm Emanuel (down slightly)
7. Andy Beshear (added)
8. Jon Ossoff (added)

How the List Is Made

• Based on Halperin’s consultations with Democratic and some GOP strategists, politicians, and campaign operatives, plus his own reporting and instincts.
• It’s about who’s the most likely nominee, not the most likely to win the general.

  “This is about being the Democratic nominee. It’s not about winning the presidential general election.” (03:30)

• Heavy focus on likelihood to run—and whether “outsider/progressive” energy can overcome establishment tendencies in the party.

Establishment vs. Progressive Tension

• Sanders’ inclusion is controversial:

  “Almost every one of my sources said don’t put Bernie Sanders on the list… But I have to go also with my own gut.” (04:16)

• Halperin discusses the historical pattern of Democrats ultimately nominating moderate, establishment-friendly candidates even when a progressive current is strong:
  • “The most likely nominee is an outsider, a progressive. That’s the mood of the party. But you gotta remember what the Democratic Party has done.” (05:24)
• Progressive lane: Acknowledges the party wants a progressive, but the list is still light on “super-progressives” (AOC dropped due to assumed lack of interest).

Rationale Behind Key Moves

• Bernie Sanders:
  • Objections: “He’s too old, he’s not going to run.”
  • But: Sanders has the energy, the base, the money machine—“If Bernie were 20 years younger, okay, he’d go for it and he’d be the favorite… I’m not betting against that guy.” (07:09)
  • Memorable Moment: Sanders’ basketball video—used humorously by Halperin as “pure electoral juice.” (08:00)
• Jon Ossoff:
  • Young, talented, authentic—expected to attract pressure to run if re-elected.
  • “He’s manifestly as talented as anybody else.” (11:15)
• Andy Beshear:
  • Widely recommended by sources, active in key states, has “as likely as anybody on the list to actually run”—despite not being the most exciting campaigner.
  • Featured: Cringe-friendly podcast moment learning Gen Z slang. (13:31)
• Kamala Harris:
  • Moves up to #2 despite establishment skepticism; has “so many advantages in fundraising and name ID… I may even move her up to number one.” (14:10)
• Josh Shapiro:
  • Down for less-than-adept crisis management: “They just don’t handle this stuff well… If he runs, there’s going to be more negative stuff that comes out.” (14:40)
• Rahm Emanuel:
  • “Most divisive figure” on the list, running an aggressive, innovative campaign (biking across New Hampshire for charity).
  • “Even people who don’t think he can be nominated… hats off to him for doing the stuff he’s doing.” (15:30)

Notable Quotes

• “Talent matters a lot. Connection to the grassroots matters a lot. A Southerner can do very well. Ossoff’s on the list.” (12:05)
• “A lot of people who talk about presidential politics… they’re in the establishment now. The establishment has certain points of view about who they think is going to do well.” (04:35)
• On Bernie: “James Carville said running for president is like having sex. You don’t just do it once and say, I’m sick of that. I won’t do it again.” (07:42)

Other Observations

• Four of the eight on the list are Jewish Americans—a notable fact Halperin points out given party dynamics on Israel and anti-Semitism. (18:40)
• Feedback requested: Listeners invited to send “8 for 28” feedback/hate mail for the next episode.

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2. The Media’s Relationship with Conservative Outliers – With Megyn Kelly

(21:44–44:50)

Main Theme

Mark Halperin and Megyn Kelly dissect the shifting media treatment of prominent conservatives (most notably, Tucker Carlson), examining how positions against Trump or the party line alter a personality’s status from media pariah to darling. They probe bias, double standards, and repercussions for public figures in an era of fragmented trust.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tucker Carlson’s NYT Interview & Media Turnabouts

• New York Times’ abrupt shift:

  “The media now loves any conservative who speaks out against Donald Trump… Tucker goes from enemy to friend.” (22:09)

• Kelly: The change is entirely transactional and shallow—Tucker now suits their anti-Trump agenda.
  • “They hate Trump way more than they hate Tucker. So they’re perfectly happy to now treat him like he’s not a racist, which they’ve been telling us for seven years.” (22:40)
• Past coverage:
  • “It was insane… the lead in the New York Times was all about how racist Tucker was… Suddenly, ‘is he all bad?’” (23:00)
• Kelly argues: “With me… she really just wanted to know how I could be a journalist and call myself a journalist. And I had endorsed Trump. That was her main thing with me.” (24:16)

Reasons for Carlson’s Media Tour

• “Just to say what his actual views are. That’s it. He doesn’t like to be misrepresented so frequently and so ubiquitously.” (25:55)
• On why go with NYT: “He’s casting a wide net now… For every one of those who leaves, there’s another newer, younger audience member who does want to hear these traditional lines challenged.” (27:14)

Double Standards in Coverage of Democratic vs. Republican Figures

• Discusses how Democratic candidates (Platner example) are given soft coverage about scandals, compared to Republicans.
  • “No one says—like they did to Pete Hegseth with his cross—that Platner needs to resign over his tattoo… They just accept it.” (29:31)
• “If it were a Republican, they’d be like, we gotta drive this guy from the race.” (31:27)

The Erosion of Media Power and Personal Pushback

• Both describe how negative coverage used to genuinely rattle them, but “now I literally, I couldn’t care less. Write whatever you want… But there’s a new danger… It’s not that you’re gonna get canceled, it’s that you’re gonna get killed.” (31:34)
• “They do write so irresponsibly, I think, about right-leaning figures they perceive as having power that it’s crossed over from, like, disturbing to deadly.” (32:02)
• “People in general were more responsive to the media; they had more credibility, which made them more threatening. Now, it’s like, please…” (33:09)
• “Podcast audiences are loyal… They may not always agree with you… but they’re generally loyal to you because they’ve seen you so intimately.” (34:05)

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Quickfire: 2028 Democratic Field & Debate

(34:27–39:43)

• Kelly: “If Kamala and Gavin Newsom BOTH run in 2028, it’s going to be the weirdest spectacle… Godzilla King Kong situation…” (37:34)
• “I think that he [Newsom] will wipe the floor with her [Harris], sort of, because he’s got charm and she has none. But… she’s not bad at the debating setting.” (37:55)
• On formidable potential Democratic candidates: “Honestly, like Stephen A. Smith, you know? If he did, I’d be scared of him.” (38:51)

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3. Supreme Court Deep Dive with Molly Hemingway

(51:16–71:31)

Main Theme

An in-depth interview about Hemingway’s new book on Justice Alito—exploring his life, impact, philosophy, and current dynamics of the Court.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Alito’s Personality and Influence

• “He does not enjoy being the center of attention.” (54:45)
• Halperin: Points out “the gap that you close between how influential Justice Alito is in America and how little people have thought about him or written about him.” (54:13)

Supreme Court Dynamics

• “You only have eight colleagues… because of that, they’ve always worked hard at getting along… They don’t really care that they disagree with each other.” (52:48)
• “After the Dobbs leak, I do think they get along fairly well.” (53:24)

Alito’s Conservative Approach

• “He’s also very practical… less about the philosophy and more about the facts of the given case.” (58:26)
• Consistently votes with conservatives, especially Clarence Thomas: “He and Thomas are the most closely aligned.” (59:18)

Historical Legacy and Key Cases

• Alito’s Dobbs and Voting Rights Act decisions will define his impact.
• Religious liberty: “If he cares about people talking about him, it’s that he would prefer they don’t talk about him.” (68:52)
• He authored the Hobby Lobby decision, dissent in the Westboro Baptist Church free speech case, and more—shows a balance of principle and pragmatism.

The Court’s Future

• On Roberts: “He might be thinking, well, I’m doing this for the integrity of the court. But… that actually just makes it more likely that we will face political campaigns or media pressure campaigns.” (64:33)
• On retirements: “Justice Breyer keeps telling his colleagues not to retire because nobody cares about you when you’re off the court.” (68:52)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “He loves reading law journals more than going to cocktail parties. He loves oral argument. He loves writing. He’s always loved writing.” (62:34) — Molly Hemingway on Alito
• “With Alito, you see someone who balances [principle and pragmatism]… And he’s really the model on that for a lot of people.” (68:09) — Molly Hemingway

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Select Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:01–21:40 “8 for ’28” Democratic Rankings & Analysis
• 21:44–44:50 Megyn Kelly: Media, Tucker Carlson, 2028 Democratic Speculation
• 51:16–71:31 Molly Hemingway: Justice Alito, Supreme Court Dynamics, Court’s Future

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Language & Tone

• Conversational, analytical, sometimes wry or sardonic.
• Halperin and Kelly both use a mix of sharp critique, humor, and behind-the-curtain candor.

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In Summary

This episode offers a revealing, insider’s tour of 2028 Democratic nomination possibilities—highlighting not just “who’s up, who’s down,” but why the party drifts between progressives and moderates and how candidate strengths are judged. The lively media critique segment with Megyn Kelly dissects the machinery of partisan coverage, illustrating why some media narratives are so fickle and how public figures navigate today’s press environment. Hemingway’s segment offers a rare, detailed portrait of the current Supreme Court and Justice Alito’s pivotal role.

For those craving a smart, fast-moving pulse on politics, media, and the judiciary, this episode is a model of clarity and candor.

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Transcript

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[A]

welcome to next up with me, Mark Calperin, Editor in Chief of the live interactive video platform 2way and Chief Nexter. Thank you for being here. Grateful to you for being part of what is our our one year anniversary program. And happy for those of you who've joined recently and for those of you who've been with us for the entire year. Two great guests. And then it's the May installment of 8 for 28. My look at who the most likely eight Democrats are to be the presidential nominee in 2028. Shout out for our host this week for When I talked to Megan. Did it from our friends at Sweet Linda, the cocktail bar on Second Avenue here in Gotham City. They were wonderful hosts. And if you're in New York and you want a great place to hang out, I recommend Sweet Linda. A wonderful place. And thanks to our guests. Megyn Kelly is here. Host the Megyn Kelly show, of course. And Meg and I will be chatting. And Molly Hemingway, editor in chief of the Federalist, author of the new book about Supreme Court Justice Alito. It's a look at one justice, but it's also a look at the court and a look at some of the biggest issues America has faced over his time on the bench. It's called Alito, the Justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. A lot of you probably are familiar with Molly. She's very smart, very good talker. Tom. So we got two smart ladies who are both great talkers here today. Before we get to them though, I want to talk about the May edition unveiled here of 8 for 28. So let's talk about it. Big changes this month. Last couple months there have been fewer changes. I think these are pretty seismic. So let's take a look at it again. These are the May ratings. These are hot off the presses based on my reporting with strategists, mostly Democratic strategists and operatives and politicians, but some Republicans. Number one remains Gavin Newsom, but a change at number two since we started the rankings. Number two throughout has been Josh Shapiro. He falls to three. And Kamala Harris moves up in a big way to number two. I'm going to explain all this, but let me just run through who's on there. Number four, Pete Buttigieg, down a bit, Bernie Sanders, a debut on the list. And that's the most controversial thing on this list. And I'll talk about that. Number six, Rahm Emanuel drops a little bit. Andy Beshear added to the list. And John Ossoff added to the list. So three new names on the list. Senator Sanders, Governor Beshear, Senator Ossoff. And the big move for some will be Kamala Harris going up to number two. Let's review where we were last month. Some, some same, some different. Last month it was Newsom, Shapiro, Buttigieg Harris, Emmanuel Ocasio Cortez, Mark Kelly and JB Pritzker. So the three who come off this month are the bottom three from last month, Ocasio, Cortez, Kelly and Pritzker. And I'll explain all this. My normal caveats. This is about being the Democratic nominee. It's not about you can put this month's back up. It's not about, it's not about winning the presidential general election. I factor in heavily who I think is going to run. So people like Wes Moore, who I still think in the end won't run, is not on the list. Gretchen Whitmer, some of my sources said put her on the list. AOC I took her off because I don't think she's going to run. And again, this is based on a lot of reporting. But here's what I have to tell you. I listen to my sources, but almost every one of my sources said don't put Bernie Sanders on the list. Almost everyone said he's too old, he's not going to run. I have to go also with my own gut, my own spidey sense of what I think is happening as I talk to people about the race and what they're looking for. So I'm going to explain to you why Bernie Sanders is on the list. But, but remember, I do a lot of reporting, but in the end, this list is my responsibility. And if all my sources, many of my sources say, you know, Westmore should be on the list, I just, I just can't put him on the list if I don't think he's going to run. And I base that on all my experience covering these things for a long time and my sensibility about, about what causes someone to run and you know, in this case more germane, what causes someone not to run. So that gut versus head thing plays in here. And I know some of my sources will watch the program and they'll say, I told you not to put Bernie Sanders on the list. Now you have him at number five. Okay, but I'll explain why. Another thing you have to factor in is the establishment filter bias. A lot of people who talk about presidential politics, particularly at this early phase, they're in the establishment now. I talk to people across the party, but the establishment has certain points of view about who they think is going to do well. Right? The establishment thinks technically that establishment candidates will do better. You've heard me say it before. I think Bernie would have been the nominee in 16 and 20 if the establishment hadn't risen up to kill him. There's a mood right now in the party and in the country for, for an outsider, someone who's anti establishment and within the Democratic Party they want a progressive. And if you look at last month's list and this month's list, you'll see there are not a lot of super progressives on this list. The so called Sanders Lane AOC was in that lane, but I don't think she's going to run now. So on the one hand, I think you'd have to assume that the most likely nominee is an outsider, a progressive. That's the mood of the party. But you got to remember what the Democratic Party has done. Now granted, it's more progressive now than it's ever been, but the progressive wing has always been unions and people on the far left. They've always been a big part of the party. Look at this chart we put together of who the Democrats have nominated in the past. In the years when there's a competitive primary, in other words, there's nomination process. There's no incumbent president. So in 1984, it was open running against Ronald Reagan. The party nominated Walter Mondale over Gary Hart and Jesse Jackson. Mondale was arguably the most electable, although he didn't win. Maybe Hart was, but he had other problems. Dukakis nominated over Jackson and Gore as the runner ups. Again, Jackson more progressive Clinton nominated over Jerry Brown and Paul Songas. John Kerry nominated over John Edwards and Howard Dean. Barack Obama nominated over Clinton and Edwards, and then Joe Biden nominated over Sanders and Warren. The point is, if you look at this chart, it's not ironclad because Gore might be an exception there, Hart might be an exception. But in general, even, even when the party was dominated by liberals, they tend to nominate someone more moderate who's, who's got a chance to be electable. Okay, so that's the, that's the tension. That's what we have to figure out. If we're saying who's the most likely nominee, is it going to be a progressive of whom there are very few? NBC has a story this week that says that assumes Sanders won't run and says, well, AOC might run or Ro Khanna might run. And they're, they're close to the Bernie people. They both have Bernie consultants working for them. But, but, but then they name some other folks like Pritzker, who, who really aren't from the Bernie wing, strictly speaking. So that's the tension we have to figure out. And I don't think anybody can answer it now, but I don't think he can rule out the progressive wing. So, so the most important thing for me to convey to you today is even though almost every source I had said don't put Bernie on the list. What's his rap against Bernie? He's older and his family, I'm sure, you know, having done this before and now that he's older, still thinks, well, he shouldn't run again. He's had his chance. But I can tell you, ladies and gentlemen, if Bernie were 20 years younger, okay, he'd go for it and he'd be the favorite. He'd raised so much money online, he'd have so much grassroots support, he would touch the, the magical harp strings of the base of the party. So there are no perfect candidates. Right. So is Bernie being older a problem? Of course. But I could list what I would say are bigger problems for most everybody on the list. Now, this video that I'm about to show you is the video that overcame all my, almost all my sources. Objections about putting Bernie on the list. This Bernie Sanders playing basketball. S6, please. This is 16 seconds of pure electoral juice. Bernie Sanders. Watch this. Those of you listening, Bernie gets thrown the ball, nails the jumper. He moves to the foul line, gets the ball, nails a jumper. Now, is he, is he three feet off the ground, no nails. Another one swish. And these are not lucky bounces, man. He's. They banked it. Three clean swishes and one clean bank. Okay, now, you know, Bernie's an older gentleman, but, man, he's got game there playing basketball. And I look at that level of energy and I look at the rest of the field. We've said this before, it's a weak field. And I say, I'm not betting against that guy. I'm not betting against that guy to run and win. Because almost never does somebody look at possibly running and say, well, I could probably be the nominee. And once I'm the nominee, I got like a 50, 50 chance of winning and I'm not going to run. It just doesn't happen, particularly for a guy who's run before. James Carville said running for presidents like having sex. You don't just do it once and say, I'm sick of that. I won't do it again. So I'm not sure Bernie's going to run, but. But I'm putting him on the list this week, folk. This month, folks, because I think he might. And if he does, I don't think AOC is going to run. As I said, if Bernie runs and the other folks on that list are the other competitors, he's the only one in the Sanders Lane. And the Sanders Lane is a powerful lane in the Democratic Party. Who else did I add to the list this week, this month? Jon Ossoff. Jon Ossoff. We've talked about him before running for re election in Georgia. He said in a recent interview he doesn't think he's going to run. Not interested in running. But the pressure on him to run if he's overwhelmingly reelected in Georgia, I think will be high. And he's a talented political actor. Here's. Here's. I could show you a million pieces of video to illustrate that, but here's John Ossoff's new campaign ad. Super impressive. And add S8, please. We're told a story. Work hard, play by the rules, and you'll thrive. No matter who you are or where you start, the grind will pay off. But for too many, this story just isn't true. Groceries, rent, insurance, taxes, the car note, the power bill. The math doesn't work.

[C]

I was so happy.

[A]

All right, here's us off at a campaign rally again. To me, he's manifestly as talented as anybody else. Thinking about running for this comes across as young, energetic, authentic, and principled. That's the. That's the Mood of the thing here is John Ossoff. S7, please. The flame of American freedom has grown brighter and bolder and given hope to the whole world. But in the winds that blow today, that light is flickering. And of all the freedoms hanging in the balance, none is more precious than the right to vote. None. Now, again, just to remind everybody, I'm not endorsing the guy. I'm not saying his policy positions are the best. I'm not saying he's moderate, you know, because he votes pretty liberal. What I'm saying is, if you're trying to evaluate who the Democrats are going to nominate for president, talent matters a lot. Connection to the grassroots matters a lot. A Southerner can do very well. All stuff's on the list. The other person I'm adding is Governor Bashir. And every month when I ask my sources, I send them, here's my draft list. Every month, a very high number say, put Bashir on the list. Here's why I'm adding him to the list. Even though I don't think he'll be the nominee in the end. He's working it. And, and, and as, as likely as anybody on the list to actually run. Okay. And, and he's, he's got a big speech, big speeches coming up in some important voting states. He's showing up at a lot of things. So I, I just gotta, I gotta put him on. I'm skeptical that as, as I've said in the past, that he's ready to do the difficult things involved in becoming the nominee. I'm also skeptical because I'll just, I'll say it straight. I'm not the only one making this point. He's not the most scintillating guy in the world. He is trying to do a lot of social media. He's got a podcast. Be ready to cringe. Here's Governor Beshear at the Kentucky Derby talking to some young people. S5, please. Hey, everyone, we are on location at the Kentucky Derby for the Andy Beshear Podcast for Learning Gen Z Lingo. What do y' all have for us today?

[B]

All right, we're going to teach people bet.

[A]

Okay? So bet best, Best defined is.

[B]

I'll do it.

[A]

So if you say, like, hey, let's

[B]

go to the Kentucky Derby, if you

[A]

want to say, okay, yeah, I'll go. You can say bet. I'll go. But does anyone say no to the Kentucky Derby? No, I don't know why anybody would. So. So it's one of those things where it's got to be like a 5050 thing, and somebody says, ben, sure. Or do they do it for the plot? Oh, so I'm not supposed to mix all these things? No, they're all their ind, their own individual thing.

[B]

You're messing it all up.

[A]

So. All right, so he's talking to his kids there. And again, I mean, I get what he's trying to do. I just don't think he's going to have the, the pizzazz, the game to, to do this. We'll see. Couple other changes I want to explain. I move Kamala Harris up to 2. Again. My establishment sources think she should. A lot of them think she should be off the list. But, but, but she's, she's, she is working this hard, and she has so many advantages in fundraising and name ID in connection to the base of the party and experience as a candidate. So I had to move. I got to move her up. I may even move her up to number one, which some of my sources think she should be number one. I don't think she'll be the nominee. But right now is a snapshot of where we are. I got, I got to move her up, as I did, into the number two slot. I moved Governor Shapiro down. And part of why I moved Harris from 4 to 2 is because I had to move. I had to move Shapiro down. And here's why. I did. Because this week, once again, he demonstrated the thing that I think is his Achilles heel. I won't go into the details because it's too boring, but there was a political flap. Somebody got a tape, an audio tape of a politician in Pennsylvania saying something about, about Shapiro that, if true, would be unseemly and embarrassing politically. And the Shapiro people and the governor himself has always happened when he was being vetted to be vice president. They just don't handle this stuff well. They don't handle it in a sophisticated way. And I can tell you, if he runs for president, there's going to be more negative stuff that comes out. And, and you just see, we've talked about it on the program before. You got to handle this stuff well. You got to handle the stuff that comes at you well. And I just, I don't see him doing it. So he moves down. Lastly, Rahm Emanuel continues to be the most divisive figure, in some ways, of everybody on the list. The people who think he's going to do well really are bullish on him. But everybody, even the people who don't think he's going to be the nominee believe he's winning. The ideas primary and he's being aggressive and clever. Here's Rahm Emanuel with his latest gambit. It's not it's not a new trick, but it's presented in a new way. Rahm Manuel is going to bike across New Hampshire. S4 please. On June 5th, starting in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, I'll be riding all the way to Hanover, the spin free tour, New Hampshire style. Be meeting people all along the route as I've done on three different trips here in the United States. I love biking as I did as ambassador four different times in Japan and I've done also with my daughter and my wife in Europe. I look forward to hearing from you, seeing you along the route, enjoying different diners, different bed and breakfasts, but also most importantly, listening, hearing and seeing the beautiful state of New Hampshire. June 5th to June 8th, join and in addition to that, it's 110 miles. We're going to donate through the foundation in New Hampshire. 110 kids will get a free bike on this door. I can't wait to see you come along for the ride now if you know Rahm Emanuel, that's a lot of smiling for a guy who's usually pretty, gruff, biking, athletic, young, energetic, given doing some stuff for charity as part of it. Super smart. He is. He is. He's doing a lot of stuff that other candidates I think will eventually start to try to steal and appropriate. But as I said, even my sources, even including some politicians who who don't necessarily think he can be nominated because of some problems with the base, hats off to him for doing the stuff he's doing. So put the list back up. Just to review again this month's rankings for May. Gavin Newsome, number one, had an interview with Bill Maher that some people thought was good, some didn't. But that's he's holding on to the number one spot. Harris moves up to number two. Josh Shapiro moves down a notch. Pete Buddha Judge moves down. Bernie Sanders. Until he tells me he's not running, I'm making Sanders strong. And if and, and, and if he does stuff that looks like he's interested in running, I'm moving him higher. Rahm Emanuel on the list moves down a little bit. And then we add Bashir. And also now one other thing I want to point out. Count them up. Shapiro, Sanders, Emmanuel Ossof for Jewish Americans, at a time when the parties turned against Israel where anti Semitism is a problem, the party, I could have put the governor of Illinois on there. That'd be five of eight but it's four of eight Jewish Americans. Interesting. And and and again, I talked to plenty of sources who say the party will not nominate someone who's Jewish. Now, there are various degrees of Jewish Jewishness on this here. Bernie Sanders, for instance, is not a particularly observant Jew, but it is an interesting fact I noticed as I was putting the list together. So we'll see what happens next month. I'm eager to see how folks do out on the trail. A lot of folks, Bashir and others. Rahm Emanuel out and about. Buttigieg always out and about. Interesting to see how they do. That's our that's our May ranking. So eager to hear what you think about them, see if I got them all in the right place. Again, I'm going to hear from a lot of my sources who do not think the May installment is good and they think I should take off Bernie Sanders and put on aoc. And if, if Sanders says he's not running definitively and AOC says she is, she'll be right on the list. But until then, I think he's got a better chance to be the nominee than she does. Let me know what you think. Send me your feedback on On Thursday, we plan to do another edition of what we call 8 for 28 hate. Tell me what I got wrong. Write me an email and say, mark, you shouldn't have put this person on, or this person should be higher or you're missing so and so. Send me an email. Nextup halpernmail.com you can be featured on the program. We can use your name or not. Up to you, but I'd love to Hear your thought. NextUp halpernmail.com if we decide to use what you send in, you'll get a special shout out. And of course, as always, make sure you're subscribed here on the YouTube channel or on the podcast. Full episode, special content, everything you might want. Go to YouTube.com @nextup halpern and subscribe. And if you're listening on the podcast version, same thing. Subscribe and make sure you've got downloads turned on so every episode comes sailing into your device as if by magic. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Send me an email 28eight after the break. When we come back, the great Megyn Kelly will be here. Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show, is next up. 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Start stacking for just 30 bucks at getacregold.com mark again, that's getacregold.com marksubscribe today. All right, next up and joining me now, the godmother of soul, the leader of the pack, our good friend and the champion of the MK Media Network, Megyn Kelly, who hosts the Megyn Kelly show weekdays from 12 to 2 on the SiriusXM Triumph channel 111. Or you can listen, of course, wherever you get your finer podcast. Megan Kelly, welcome back to next up,

[B]

only the places you get the finer ones. That's it.

[A]

Yeah, not on the junk podcast networks. You know, I try not to turn every episode of every show I do into media criticism of the liberal bias, but sometimes I must. And I'm so glad you're here because I want to talk to you about this topic, maybe for the whole segment, but we'll, we won't do the whole segment. The media now loves any concern, former conservative or conservative who doesn't like, who speaks out against Donald Trump.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And, and, and I, I, this, I, I need two hours back because I listened to the entire New York Times podcast with Tucker and she treated Tucker like he was the best ever. And previous coverage in the New York Times, not so much. So I'm just wondering, vis a vis Tucker, but just in general. Marjorie Taylor Greene, There are many examples. How do you, how is this, how does this happen, do you think, within a newsroom like that, where all of a sudden Tucker goes from enemy to friend?

[B]

I mean, you know, it's just as shallow as you think. It's that he changed his position. He might be a useful person to them now. And taking down a president they loathe, you know they hate Trump way more than they hate Tucker. So they're perfectly happy to now treat him like he's not a racist, which they've been telling us for seven years. I mean, I'm dear friends with Tucker. And I remember it was 2022, I think, where I opened up my. My New York Times to see huge above the fold. The lead in the New York Times was all about how racist Tucker was. And they had multiple people weighing in on it. They had multiple shows they'd gone through. They had tons of correspondents who had watched every hour of his Fox News show. I mean, it was insane. It was like Tucker had just declared for president and emerged as the leader overnight. That's the only thing that would have justified that level of coverage on this guy. And it was all like, he's a racist. And it was such bs. The things that they were saying about him, they would say about virtually any conservative who's been talking on TV for a long time. The great replacement theory. Meanwhile, they're the ones who say it, that they want to replace police people with people from south of the border. Anyway, suddenly they're like, is he all bad? That is kind of interesting. He's got some good ideas. Maybe we should sit with him for a long time, try to get to. We could have been wrong. We needed to get to know him better. Really. That's what it was about.

[A]

Now, that same lady, I believe, interviewed you, like, several months ago, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was pretty nice to you also?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I like.

[A]

Yeah, she's a little bit straightforward. But, but, but two hours with Tucker, she asked you some tough questions. I didn't hear a single tough. She did call him out on denying he said something he said, but otherwise it was basically, she let Tucker say the President was possessed by demons or controlled by Netanyahu, and she just listened to it all. And then she said, well, my job's not to criticize the guests. My job's just to elicit information.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, because of course, they're like, great. The New York Times is in a weird place because all of its audience, they used to be pro Israel, too, but now all of its audience, all. All Democrats have turned on Israel. I mean, they all turned. And so there's absolutely no down downside to her in being completely aligned with Tucker's views on Netanyahu. And yeah, I mean, with me, she wasn't interviewing me at the time because I had said things that the left likes. I don't know why she interviewed me. Because I wasn't adverse to the president at that point. She really just wanted to know how I could be a journalist and call myself a journalist. And I had endorsed Trump. That was her main thing with me. But with Tucker, you know, she's like, great. And then she kind of dangled at the end, like, how about Graham Platner? She knows Tucker's in Maine. She was interviewing him, I think in Maine, Maine or Florida. And she's like, oh, you know, how about Graham Platner? And he gave her a few nuggets on that one, too. Like, I'm going to be meeting with him. She's like, everything's coming up roses.

[A]

Exactly. Next one.

[B]

Joe Rogan.

[A]

Exactly. I want to talk about. Or Marjorie Taylor Greene, Woman of the Year. I want to talk about Platner in a second because he was on my mind this weekend as well. But, but just to stay with Tucker for a second. Tucker's now done Wall Street Journal and New York Times interviews. Very similar. You know Tucker well. I know him less well, but I know him a little bit. What is the point of Tucker's media tour, do you think?

[B]

Just to say what his actual views are. That's it. He doesn't like to be misrepresented so frequently and so ubiquitously. And it's happening now thanks to people on the right. He's used to it happening on the left, and I don't think he's ever really cared that much about that. You know, it's like we on the right are used to them doing that to us. You know, I'm center. Right. But, you know, whatever. Tucker's views are sometimes unpredictable, notwithstanding this current thing. But when the attacks are coming from our perceived side, you know, the so called neocon right, the Israel Firsters, however you want to describe what's happening within the Republican Party with this faction, I think it does bother him. I think he's disturbed by the anti Semite charge which is been used against him now for months. And he's deeply opposed to the Iran war and wants everyone to know why. You know, it's not that he wants them to know Tucker Carlson's against it. He wants them to understand the reasons why so that they might be persuaded. And I think he'll talk to anybody, anybody about that.

[A]

I get that. But if Tucker said to me, I want. That's my goal, exactly as you well described it, and he said, should I do it with the New York Times? I'd say no. Come on. Next up. Or, or do it with National Review Why do, like, what does he get out of doing with the New York Times?

[B]

I mean, I think he's casting a wide net now. You know, once he said that he's sorry that he endorsed Trump, he regrets it and feels like he has to make amends and his show is doing fine. It's not like he's hurting for audience, but I think he's understanding there may be some new listeners over here. You know, like, like he's gotten very, very popular lately, I read with Muslim viewers because he's been standing up for Islam, you know, and I have to tell you, Mark, it's been something I've noticed just since I've gotten a sort of more clear eyed on Israel, that a lot of the anti Muslim rhetoric that's put out there originates with people who are very, very pro Israel who kind of need us to demonize them. And I've taken a look recently at my own rhetoric on this to say, like, have I been manipulated? I wanna make sure I'm not getting manipulated. But I think he's having a lot of Muslim viewers flock to him. I know for a fact he has a lot of young men flocking to him. And so while he may have lost some contingent of the Fox News audience that's very, very pro Israel and you know, pro Trump. And you can't say anything about Trump. For every one of those who leaves, there is another newer younger audience member who does want to hear these traditional lines challenged and hear just new independent thinking. I mean, I'm experiencing some of that myself and tucker probably times 10.

[A]

Yeah, it's so interesting the whole thing. I mean, it's almost mind boggling. Interesting. One more thing about Tucker. Tucker caught me because I'd love to talk to Tucker. Platner was on my mind this weekend because again, I try not to make every program about liberal media bias, but Platner has made statements about being that are perceived as anti gay. He made statements offensive about sexual assault. And of course he had a Nazi tattoo until recently which he claims he didn't know was a Nazi tattoo. He's now being not just made into a hero by the left and endorsed by every Democratic politician. But when these things are covered, they're not covered the way they would be covered if they were true of a Republican Senate candidate. They're covered. Like, isn't this sort of interesting? Can he overcome these things? Yeah, you know, not, I mean, so true. No one says they did to Pete

[B]

Hegseth with his cross.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That was in the week in the News for weeks.

[A]

They're saying, you need to resign. And they're asking every Republican, shouldn't Pete Hegseth resign over his tattoo? And with Platner as. All these Democrats, like Chuck Schumer and. And Kristen Kirsten Gillibrand and the Pod Save America Bros. They're all endorsing Platner now. And it's like no one's asked them, well, what about these things? They're just accepting it as. As, well, we're all for platinum because he's going to beat Susan Collins. So again, yeah, they skipped down a

[B]

couple of lines and they were like, wants to pack the Supreme Court wants to impeach Supreme Court Justices Thomas and Alito wants to add puerto Rico and D.C. as a state. We're good.

[C]

We're good.

[B]

Tattoo. Stop being so judgmental.

[A]

Right Again, though, shouldn't there be a corrective in our society for this? It's just not fair.

[B]

There is. It's you and it's me. We're like our lane that we're doing it, which they hate. And, you know, depending on the news cycle, they're like, they're so important it's dangerous. Or they're totally irrelevant. Nobody listens to them. But I think it's someplace in between. And that enough is, you know, very bothersome to whatever constituency wants to shut us up. But, yeah, we are the corrective.

[A]

All right, so let's play this out. Let's say it's a crazy hypothetical. You and I are working at NBC News again, and we're in the morning meeting, and they're talking about platinum. They're like, well, Schumer's endorsing Da, da, da. And you and I say, chime in. And we say, hey, everybody. Like, shouldn't we be asking Chuck Schumer what he thinks of all these controversial statements Platner makes? What would they say at NBC News if you and I stood up on the meeting and said that it's been done.

[B]

He's answered them. You know, it's been. We covered it. You know, and they probably will. I'm sure they did cover it in, like, some. One buried report that aired on, like, I don't know, MSNBC when they were still connected. That would be one way of doing it. But, yeah, I think they'll do one piece to sort of get on record with it, and then they can just keep referring back like, we did. We covered it.

[A]

But again, no doubt if it were Republican, they'd be like, we gotta drive this guy from the race. This guy can't be the candidate.

[B]

But you know what, Something interesting is happening with that now, Mark. So, yes, they would, absolutely. And I think Republicans have gotten to the point where they realize who cares? You know, like, who cares? In the same way I'm there just as a media personality. Like, I still have leftist papers doing hit pieces on me pretty regularly. I couldn't care less when I was at Fox. That kind of stuff would genuinely rattle me. Like, oh my God, this could be the end of my career. They're saying the worst things about me that aren't true. And now I literally, like, I couldn't care less. Write whatever you want to write. We're good. But there's a new danger, as you and I both know, since we were on the air together when Charlie died, which is it's not that you're gonna get canceled, it's that you're gonna get killed. And they do write so irresponsibly, I think, about right leaning figures who they perceive as having power that it's crossed over from, like, disturbing to deadly. So it does bother me. I don't want to say, like, it doesn't. Like it doesn't cross my mind or I think it's fine or they should keep doing it if it, like, I don't mean like the lighter publications, but I mean, when. If like the left as an institution turns on you and starts demonizing you, it's dangerous.

[A]

Yeah. No, I agree with you in terms of the troubling. I'm same as you. There are stories that come out now that if it happened 15 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to sleep and I would have woken up and I would have dashed off an email to my PR team saying, we need to push back on this now. I don't care. Do you think if we turn the clock back, that would have been. We could have had that attitude back then or we were at a different point in our lives and there was no way to have that attitude.

[B]

I don't think so. I don't think you could have turned the clock away because I do think people in general were more responsive to the media. They had more credibility, which made them more threatening. Now it's like, please, you know, it's like, look at that long hit piece that was done by Vanity Fair on Susie Wiles and the administration. You know, they all sat with him and it was so vicious, it was awful. The pictures were so nasty. To show Caroline Levitt's lip injection site, like the nastiest stuff you could hope to Print. If you're a leftist, the most pickup it got was from people like you and me being like, what a bullshit thing to do. But it was. It had, like, no impact.

[A]

You know, it's a great example.

[B]

So I just. I think they've been really weakened to the point where we. There's no reason to be afraid of their little hit pieces or attempts. And also media so fragmented. It's like you have your constituency.

[C]

They.

[B]

They believe in you. They love you. They may not always agree with you. They may get mad at you sometimes, but they're generally loyal to you because they've seen you so intimately and up close and personal. And day after day on your podcast, you share so much of yourself. They spend so much time with just you. You know, your relationship with them is, like, pure. It's. It's not really. It can't be sullied by a mean paper.

[A]

Right? So my latest date for 28 for May is that the rankings are out for this month. And there's. Gavin Newsome is still number one. I have. Another Californian is number two. I moved Kamala Harris the number two slide, even though I don't think either of them, in the end, will actually be the nominee. But that's. I can't. I can't foresee the future. How would you handicap. If I'm right, that those are the top two, how would you handicap the fight just for the nomination, not the general election? How would you handicap the fight if both of them run? What that will be, like, so fun

[B]

for you and me. Gosh, so fun. Are we that good of people that they'll put Kamala back on the ballot in some way that she actually will throw her hat in this ring? We might be. We might. I think we deserve this.

[A]

As one of our mutual friends says to text me every time she's in the news. He texts me. I miss her every time.

[B]

Totally. Totally. I like. There was an article just out today talking about how, like, the Malibu residents where she just bought a home for $8 million are like, this is where you go to put your. Your sand in the. Or your feet in the sand. This is not where you go to launch a presidential campaign. And of course, I was like, you stop that right now. Nasty neighbors. I prayed, God, that this would happen, and I deserve this. And I do believe she's throwing her hat back. And this is temporary. This is just the offshoot. This might be the retirement plan, but for later, because I do think she's gonna run again, you know, according to the Polls. You know, one had them neck and neck, but one had her like, 20 points above Gavin recently. And I think she will be inclined to believe that one and to believe the nonsense she's been spinning about. It was only 107 days, and that's the only reason I didn't win. And she's got some basis for it, right? Like, she's a black woman also. She's a black woman, and she got

[A]

a big fund, got a big fundraising list.

[B]

And on top of that, one thing she would have this time that she didn't have the last time, is the Republican Party is going to go into 28 pretty beaten up. Like, it was four years after Trump's first term as president. You know, you kind of forget how controversial he is, how he dominates your whole life. Every news cycle. You get sick of thinking about your president. You're like, remember when I didn't have to think about my president was just kind of there? And you kind of urge, you know, you're longing for that. And then, you know, you get reminded that a Democrat is not the answer. But I do think independents, and I'm an independent generally, are like, not sure I want so much drama. And anybody who runs for president as a Republican is going to be an offshoot of Trump. You know, it's gonna be JD Or Marco or somebody in the administration. Some people are talking about Hegseth, someone who reminds you of Trump. So that's an advantage to her because she's like, it's the same as the old guy. You know, all the stuff he hated about Trump, that guy backed. And by definition, that will be true, because nobody can challenge Trump if they're in his administration, or even a Republican these days, or you get excommunicated from the movement. So that's an advantage for her. And I think she'll accurately deduce that and probably stay in it until her party kicks her out, because they know she can't win.

[A]

And if you put yourself just like, in a mind's eye, the two of them on a debate stage together, who do you think would come at on top if they were just debating?

[B]

It's going to be the weirdest spectacle. It's going to be like a Godzilla King Kong situation. And that there's these two weird blue monsters, you know, like, she with the weird accents, like, we're going to win. And then Gavin Newsom with the nonstop hands and the. Everything is a gesture, like he's the signer at an angry sign language conference. We're not even gonna know what to do with ourselves. There'd be so much to talk about. I think that he will wipe the floor with her, sort of, because he's got charm and she has none. But I'll just put like a 10% discount on my statement because she was decent in some of those debates. She's not a bad debater. She's like, I think she's a good memorizer. So she is. And she's smart enough as a lawyer to like, okay, we're on climate change. I've got two stock answers on climate change. Which ones applies? And she'll deliver it. So I'm gonna just temper my remarks a little to say she's not bad at the debating setting. And I'm not sure if he's any good.

[A]

Is there any Democrat who's thinking about running who you think Republicans would see as formidable in a general election and say, whoa, we really need to be prepared to beat that person?

[B]

No, I mean, the only one who came to mind when you asked that question is Stephen a. Honestly, like Stephen A. Smith, you know, sports commentator. Now he talks about everything. He's charming, he's funny, he can be self deprecating, he's incisive on his commentary. He's not a hard partisan. He's half of what they like. Cause he's a black man. They don't like men. But he'll get points for being diverse. But he's saying now he won't do it. But honestly, if he did, I'd be scared of him. If I were a Democrat and a Republican like, that guy, to me, oozes charm and likability. And he's not a hard partisan. So he could win. That's what's really crazy. He could. So anyway, I don't know. I'd be praying and, and paying him not to run if I were on Team Blue.

[A]

All right, lastly, Comey. James Comey. I'm so fascinated by him. I have been for over a decade because there's no one I see in American life where the gap between how highly they regard themselves and what everyone else thinks about is so wide. It's hard in red blue America to have the left and the right to test you. But James Comey's pulled that off. But whenever he appears in public, he acts like he's the most popular person in America. So you're a good student of psychology. What? What, what allows James Comey to strut around like he's very popular when in fact really no one likes him? As best I can Tell maybe outside his family.

[B]

That is so true. Well, he must not be online. That's the only thing.

[A]

Well, we know he posts on Instagram, so he's at least a little online.

[B]

Maybe it's only outgoing and there's no inbox for him, because otherwise, how could he possibly walk around like that? But you're exactly right. So he must just be believing the people in his immediate circle and the yes men who have surrounded him since his time at the FBI into, like, the people who buy that Joe Friday thing. You know, like, he's just. Just the facts, ma'. Am. And he must have deluded himself into believing he has sold that to the rest of us. And that. And, you know, there is still, like, the never Trump contingent that does like him. You know that.

[A]

I mean, they like him a little bit, but then when they remember that he's the one who helped Hillary Clinton win more, lose, help Trump beat Hillary Clinton literally more than anyone else.

[B]

True.

[A]

It's a little hard to be for him if you're anti Trump. I have to say, the story of how many ethical, legal, Ethical violations he committed in 2016 has never been told. And it's quite something. And it started him down a public path on both sides of just doing whatever he wants and thinking everyone loves him.

[B]

Oh, and to. To me, it's very clear he lied under oath repeatedly. And the only reason he didn't get indicted for that. I mean, they tried was the statute of limitations ran, but he definitely lied under oath as far as my opinion goes. I mean, I've watched him repeatedly. One person who has really been watching him very closely, there's a couple people, but, like Victor Davis Hanson could recite to you chapter and verse the lies he's told. So could Molly Hemingway over at the Federalist. But, yeah, in terms of the mainstream media, there's no desire to keep tabs. I mean, I will say this for the record. I was wooed by Comey when he was in office before Trump. I thought he was an honest guy. I bought the whole routine. You know, the story about at Mueller's bedside, like, they seem like both honorable men. I was like, okay, I'm buying all this. And then came his behavior during the Trump administration. But the thing for me that really sealed it was the interview with George Stephanopoulos, like, after the drama, and he posted a picture of himself under the klieg lights that Stephanopoulos had brought from abc. Just him. And it was like a tease for his interview. And you could see he was loving it. He Loved the attention. That's what he wants. He wants to be under the klieg lights. There's nothing wrong with that. You and I like being there, too, but we own it. It's our business. We're open about it. We're not trying to fool people that we're above it while still dying for the attention. And I just, ever since that picture, I was like, oh, my God, I see it now. I finally see it so glaringly. And everything now, everything I've seen is about him and his ego in his whole court.

[A]

And what he did in 2016 to Hillary Clinton violated every, every bit of the what you're supposed to do as FBI director, Including basically saying, I know better than my boss, the attorney General, and I'm going to come out without telling her and announce this investigation. And then he has his cronies, including this guy at Columbia, leak for him. Yes, in a way that no one in law enforcement should ever even consider doing. And for him, it was business as usual because as you said, he's the hero of every story he's ever been in.

[B]

Well, and what was he having his friend at Columbia leak about him, all about him. It's not like he was trying to write the facts or correct the record, like, oh, somebody said something that's disparaging to the FBI or to this case I'm on. No, it was all about James Comey and his image, what he may or may not have done. He's so careful about curating just the right look. And of course he doesn't get it right that it's like just doing that is off putting. Just doing that is undermining whatever connection you think you're trying to make with people. You'd be much better off just being like self deprecating or owning your weird flaws and just how odd you are. I tell some story that any normal person can relate to if you actually want to be loved, but I don't think he's capable of it. He must be extremely fragile. Go back to the psychotherapy. Like, his ego must be extremely fragile.

[A]

Totally agree. Well, we got to 14% of my questions, so please come back and anytime. Everyone here at NextUp is very grateful to you for giving us the platform on your platform.

[B]

The show's doing great as everyone knew it would and I can't wait to see what it does as we gear up for the political celly season.

[A]

Thank you. You got two options with Megan. You can watch her live at 12 to 2. Listen to her live 12 to 2 on SiriusXM or catch up later on all your best platforms including the podcast platform and YouTube. Megan, thank you.

[B]

You bet, Marc. See you soon.

[A]

Great to see you. All right, next up, we celebrate our one year anniversary here of the program taking a special look at where we've been and our year ahead. That's next up. Did you know that high blood pressure is the number one risk factor for mortality? One in two adults has it. That means there's a 5050 chance that you're a walking time bomb. But here's the good news. You can take control of your blood pressure naturally without having to rely on Big Pharma. 120 Life is a blend of great tasting super fruit juices that have been shown to help lower blood pressure. It's backed by hundreds of doctors and trusted by thousands of people who've already seen measurable results. And here's the very best part. It's completely risk free. Try 120 Life for two weeks and if you don't see a difference in your numbers, you get your money back. Go to 120life.com that's 120life.com and use the code nextup to save 20% and get yourself free shipping. This is serious. This is your life we're talking about. 120Life can help Premier hosts on VRBO deliver quality vacation rental stays with fast responses and clear instructions so you don't have to worry about surprises.

[C]

I asked our host a question about the house last night and he got

[B]

back to me super quick.

[A]

See, that's the premier host move right there.

[C]

I wish I had a premiere group chat. I asked them where we should have dinner last night and they left me on read. I know you saw it.

[B]

It says it.

[A]

Classic group chat move. Don't walk into a surprise. Book a top rated vrbo. Stay with a premier host. If you know you verbo. Alright, next up, a little bit of a celebration around here. This program began 11 year ago. We launched it 365 days or so. So it's our anniversary and for that we wanted to take a special look at some of the moments that we think defined our first year together. Me, you, nexters, Everybody. Welcome to NextUp. I'm Mark Kalperin. Welcome and thank you for coming back. Joe. Welcome back to the program. Governor. Happy holidays. Welcome in Newt Gingrich. Thank you for joining NextUp. Patty Solis Doyle, Democratic strategist. She's smart and she's fierce. King of all media, Scott Jennings. Scott. Thank you congressman. Welcome back to NextUp. One of the most talented and best people I've ever met.

[B]

I've never had a better introduction.

[A]

James, welcome and congratulations on the book. Our guest next up is my dad, Morton H. Halperin. So in addition to being on the enemies list, they also wiretapped our home phone for 21 months. Nixon famously saying, nothing but gossip and bull. When I was a kid in 1984,

[C]

there were no two way television sets.

[A]

You couldn't spy on everybody's home. 2017 World Series. I took Catherine, my youngest daughter. It's still the greatest game in the history of the Houston Astros. Can you read a book? I can read. I just have to underline it. That's why I don't go to the library, because I can never return the book. What is your favorite movie?

[B]

My favorite movie of all time is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. The original you bumped into the ceiling, which now has to be cleaned and sterilized. So you get nothing. You lose.

[A]

I don't even know who Madden and Summerall are. I've never. No, be serious. What do you guys even tell you? We're stopping the whole interview. Stopping. Speaking at everybody on south park was like beyond anything I. I had on my. Even back this summer, I. I couldn't have imagined it. We on the right have to be able to laugh at ourselves better. I've never been so proud of you.

[C]

When you have to go to all

[A]

these different towns, Mark, and you gotta make all different types of people laugh,

[C]

you really get a sense of the country.

[A]

The decision to get rid of Waltz has been percolating for a long time. You'll recall that he led that signal chat group. Things are going pretty well. It's interesting you bring that up, Mark. Wow, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Thank you, my friend.

[C]

We're talking about the man behind the news.

[A]

Someone as talented as he is nice. Or maybe it's as nice as he is talented, straightforward and honest and analytical. He's like, not like a person. He's like a. It's like an apparition, like an angel.

[B]

I just love him.

[A]

All right, we're excited about year two and very happy to have you with us. This program relies on your viewership, your listenership, and while we had a great first year, we're looking for bigger and better things as we head into the midterms. And then right on to the presidential. Grateful to you for being part of it and look forward to keeping the conversation going. All right, quick break. When we come back, next up, Molly Hemingway, editor in chief of the Federalist and author of the new book Alito the Justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. Molly Hemingway is next up. Are you being lied to? They tell you to defer paying your taxes by saving in a 401k or an IRA because you'll retire in a lower tax bracket. But if that were true, why are so many retirees now in the highest tax bracket of their lives? It's time to get the truth and discover a better way to grow and protect your money. Bank on yourself is the proven retirement plan. Alternative banks and Wall street desperately hope that you never hear about it gives you guaranteed predictable growth that doesn't go backward when the market drops. It can provide tax free retirement income under current tax law, putting you in control of your future tax rate. You also have control of your money. Access it when you need to with no government penalties or restrictions. And again, your money keeps growing even when you use it. Right now get a free report that reveals how you can bank on yourself and enjoy that tax free retirement income, guaranteed growth and control of your own money. Just go to bankonyourself.com mark and get your free report. That's bankonyourself.com mark. Go right now to bankonyourself.com, book a loved by guest property with Vrbo and you get a top rated vacation rental that's loved for all the right reasons like being in a great location or having great amenities.

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Ugh. I love my VRBO for the view.

[A]

Good reason. Ooh, and the sauna.

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Sweet.

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Another good reason.

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And that it's one of those good saunas with the hot rock thing. Oh, love a good hot rock thing. Fancy.

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That's also a reason. Don't worry about surprises. Book a verbo you'll love with the Love by Guest filter if you know you verbo. All right, next up and joining me now, Molly Hemingway, editor in chief of the Federalist and the author of the new book Alito the Journey justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. It's a great book and we're going to talk about why that is with Molly now. Molly, welcome.

[C]

Great to be here with you. Mark.

[A]

How's the book tour going?

[C]

Well, you know, you know how crazy these things are. But it has gone so well. I when I wrote the book I knew I wanted to know much more about Samuel Alito, but I wasn't entirely sure that other people would share my interest in the the topic. And it has just done very well and we hit the bestseller list and it and I'm just glad it seems like a good moment where people are curious about the one justice that they don't really seem to know much about.

[A]

Yeah, well, congratulations. And, you know, the book operates on several levels. It's journalism, it's history, it's a biography. And it's also a portrait of one of the most fascinating topics in America now, which is this Supreme Court, because the dynamics are really different with these nine justices than certainly 20 years ago. Just talk about, we'll talk about your main topic, Justice Alito, but talk about the dynamics amongst these nine under Justice Chief Justice Roberts. What's, what's it like? What are the dynamics like as your book reveals them?

[C]

Well, it's got to be one of the weirdest positions to be in, to be a Supreme Court member, no matter which era you're talking about. You have a lifetime appointment. You only have eight colleagues, whether you like them or not, like, those are your colleagues. So because of that, I think they've always worked hard at getting along. And there was a time in the country's history where they actually lived together when they were in session, not far from wherever they were meeting. We're not at that level now. But they have these little practices, like they always shake hands when they meet in conference or before they go out on the bench. And it just helps reinforce that they are this sort of small team. They don't really care that they disagree with each other. They expect that they're all pretty smart individuals who have strong views. But, and I also think, given what I report in my book about how tense things got after the Dobbs leak, I do think they get along fairly well. And you even saw this recently when Justice Sotomayor had what many people did not like, hearing her attacking her colleague Brett Kavanaugh and a speech in Texas. I think it was the other justices strongly encouraged her to apologize for that. And she did. And I think that was good that she did, that she understands that this is a tight fraternity and that they should keep things going as well as possible.

[A]

One of the reasons your book's so important is the gap that you close between how influential Justice Alito is in America and how little people have thought about him or written about him or known about him. And so that's an extraordinary and important achievement. Justices aren't like members of Congress or the White House. They don't have social media teams. They don't have press secretaries. The Court itself has a communications office. But they're basically in the business of saying no Comment. So what. What was the challenge? To tell the story of someone who's really not interested in publicity.

[C]

And I mean, even among. So all of the justices are pretty quiet. They're not talking a ton to reporters. They do talk to a. But when you're dealing with already a cloistered group of individuals, it can be really hard to get in there. But I'd previously written a book on the Supreme Court with Kerry Severino, and I think we were viewed as having done a very good, respectful treatment in protecting sources. We interviewed nearly 100 people. These weren't just people at the Supreme Court, but the Senate, the White House, and that it just went over well. And so I think that allowed people to feel more comfortable talking to me. But in Justice Alito's case, what kind of cracks me up about it, as Justice Scalia said when he joined the court, when Alito joined the court, how remarkable. A shy Supreme Court justice. And it really is unusual. They're usually really big personalities and they enjoy being the center of attention, and he does not. But being able to talk to so many people from his childhood, from his young adulthood, from when he worked at the Department of Justice, you know, just over the years, it really helped get a better picture of who he is. And then also talking to his colleagues on the court. And they were actually the people who gave me the idea in the first place. When we did that previous book on Kavanaugh, they were the ones who were saying they thought it was weird that nobody had written about him. You know, most justices have written books or have books about them, but he didn't. And most of the people who noticed he was this massive figure were people on the left. You know, people like Linda Greenhouse or Ian Millhiser would talk about what a big figure he is, but on the right, it seemed like nobody was paying attention.

[A]

Am I right that he is. He is ruled more conservatively than was popularly thought when he was nominated for the court?

[C]

Oh, no. He actually kind of had a reputation for being this incredibly consistent and conservative person. But here's the thing. I think that you're getting it when you're an appeals court judge, you are just applying the law that the Supreme Court has handed down. So you don't have as much flexibility as when you are on the Supreme Court. And he had many clerks left and right. And his some of his, you know, liberal clerks were quite prominent in Democrat circles, and they praised him for how he faithfully applied precedent. And so even they were a big part of his confirmation effort. So he was noticed by the Bush administration for how conservative and consistent he was. But you, you know, he would, you know, if the Supreme Court had precedent on abortion, he would apply it. If they had precedent on guns, he would apply it. So it's less about what you, what your own interpretation of the law is than what your vocation is as an appeals court judge.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt he was, he was known to be a conservative and that's why he was picked. But I guess my impression is, you know, for people don't follow it closely, the Supreme Court is a math game. Unless there's a recusal, you got to get five votes to win. And he has been, I would say, an aggressive warrior for what he believed in to find the 5 to 4 majorities to try to craft opinions that come out as conservatively as possible. In almost every case, I think, I think on the data, he votes very, almost never with the more liberal justices unless it's a 9 nothing decision. Whereas some of his colleagues, Roberts and, and Coney, Barrett and Kavanaugh in particular will, will sometimes vote. Gorsuch as well, will sometimes vote with the, in a coalition with the moderates, the liberals rather. He doesn't really very often do that. Right.

[C]

Not. He does not. And I would say that on the court we've had a lot of attention paid to the more liberty minded or libertarian minded men like Scalia and Thomas and Gorsuch, and they are interested in this, like broad philosophical arguments related to the Constitution. And Alito isn't just more conservative than libertarian. He's also very practical in how he applies things. So it's less about the philosophy and more about the facts of the given case. But he is, you know, I would say he is the conservatives justice in a way that even the others on the right aren't necessarily so conservative.

[A]

You may not know this off the top of your head, and I apologize if I'm putting you on the spot. He votes with Justice Thomas a very high percentage of the time. I don't know if you know the number, but I think it's north of 85%.

[C]

It would definitely be north of 85. I don't know the exact number. I mean, they all actually vote together more than people give them credit for. But he and Thomas are the most closely aligned. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So his career isn't over. He's not given any explicit indication he's going to retire. There's certainly lots rumors, but he's certainly on the back half of his time on the court. How will he Your book does a good job of shaping and framing this. How will he go down in history as compared to Justice Scalia, Justice Rehnquist, other justices of the, of the conservative movement who have had long and influential careers?

[C]

Well, most justices aren't really remembered at all. You know, you get, you give them enough time and people don't really remember anything, or, or they'll be lucky to be remembered for a single decision. And I think that what's interesting about Justice Alito, obviously having authored the landmark Dobbs decision, which had been this goal of the conservative legal movement for literally 50 years, that's the thing he's going to be remembered for. But as one conservative attorney I was speaking to this week said, man, writing Dobbs and this VRA decision in the same career is just, I mean, that's like, monumental. I think what he would like to be remembered for is his work on religious liberty. And this is something going back to when he was on the Third Circuit. He really cares about the religious rights of minorities and that they are protected. And this is something where he actually differed from Scalia, who authored the Employment Division v. Smith decision, which somewhat limited the rights of minorities. It was about a Native American who was smoking peyote and lost his job because it was, you know, because it's a drug, but he was doing it for religious reasons. And Alito has done so much jurisprudence intended to protect those minorities who are not protected now under Employment Division v. Smith. And I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, there are some cases next year that are dealing with this very same issue that he might want to get that done prior to leaving the court.

[A]

I'll just annotate. VRA is the Voting Rights act decision that Molly referenced that he wrote this week. I remember when you were probably in junior high school or elementary school, but during the Bork hearings, Justice Bork said that he wanted to be on the Supreme Court because he said it would be an intellectual feast. And that didn't go over so well with some people in the media, at least, because it suggested he just sort of was doing it for himself rather than for the country. I find Supreme Court confirmation hearings in the Senate to be an intellectual feast. I love listening to the justices in part because it's almost. Except the occasional speech that they allow to be filmed. It's amongst the last times you'll ever hear them talk, unless they go on a book tour or unless, again, they allow a speech to be shot or they do a panel. So I was thinking in preparation for talking to You. I've rarely heard Justice Alito talk since his confirmation hearings. He's not been, as you said, out there very much, and I have impressions of him from what gets written from your book and elsewhere. Would you say he likes his job? Does he consider this to be important work, fun work, intellectual feast? How would you characterize how Justice Alito thinks about his work?

[C]

So he certainly loves the law and always has. I also think he likes structured debate. So if you like structured debate, what could be better than being a Supreme Court justice? You can hear him. And in fact, there were clips going around this week of him doing oral argument in that case dealing with whether the president can end temporary protected status for certain immigrant groups or migrant groups. And he was the one who led the solicitor down that path. The guy was trying to say that it was a anti or no, it was a pro white or I don't know that the policy was anti white. And Alito was the one who leads him down this path of questioning. He loves to do these hypothetical questions that start off very easy and then get very difficult. And he completely undermined the advocate's argument by just asking a series of hypotheticals about who is considered white. So you can, you can, you can hear him that way. But I think he loves reading law journals more than going to cocktail parties. He loves oral argument. He loves writing. He's always loved writing. So I think he enjoys that part of it. He just, just, he's just less flamboyant than maybe some of the other justices are.

[A]

Yeah, I should say now, of course, we are allowed to hear their voices when they do arguments. We don't get to see them, though. And so the image is a little bit different. What's the future of the Court? John Roberts has done his best. I think if you're an institutionalist and you want the Court to be respected, you want the justices to not be undermined, and really the whole judiciary, I think he's, you know, you might, people might disagree with some of his rulings, but I think he's been a pretty fierce advocate for the prerogatives of the Court and to try to defend it from attacks, including from the president, who picked a lot of the justices who are there now. What do you think the future of the Court is? Is it going to change institutionally in ways? Is it up to the next Chief justice to define it? How would you see the future of the court?

[C]

Well, Chief Justice John Roberts has always been open about one of his big goals being protecting the integrity of the he has wanted the court to rule in more universal ways, all with one voice, rather than all of these different opinions and dissents. He himself has struggled with that, most notably in the Obamacare decision. But one of the things that was funny going back to his confirmation hearings, sometimes people complain about him that he has no judicial philosophy, that he just seems to kind of do what he thinks in a given moment. But I think what's interesting is if you go back to his confirmation hearings, that's what he said about himself. He said, you know, they said, what is your, what is your philosophy? And he's like, I don't have one. You know, maybe I should, but I don't have one. And so I think people sometimes put on these justices what they, what they want them to be without listening to what they actually say they are. And whether he's been successful in his efforts, I would say that some of his decisions have opened the court up to more media pressure. You know, people view him as succumbing to media pressure sometimes, and he might be thinking, well, I'm doing this for the integrity of the court. But I think some people think, well, that actually just makes it more likely that we will face political campaigns or media pressure campaigns. But it's also impossible to know how things would have gone had he ruled in different ways or had he handled himself in different ways. So I think jury is out. But I do appreciate that you're hearing more and more people talking about the importance of respecting the individual integrity of the court, that it's, you know, yes, it is a conservative court right now. That's true. We also had decades of it being a liberal court and understanding that the court has this authority. And also, you know, that that's, that is important for people who want to live under rule of law. And I also think the Court's probably going to have to do something to deal with these rogue district court judges who are part of this campaign to undermine presidential authority through nationwide injunctions. They've already done some work, but they'll probably have to do much more to deal with that, not just for the current presidency, but for all the future presidencies as well.

[A]

So again, you mentioned a couple of decisions that he authored that are obviously hugely consequential. Dobbs, in the Voting Rights act decision from this week, what else makes Justice Alito such an important historical figure?

[C]

Well, in addition to the religious liberty cases, and he's done a lot, you know, he also authored the Hobby Lobby decision, which protected the religious rights of family owned corporations and he's, you know, he's done a lot on statutory issues, criminal law. He's one of those lone dissenters sometimes on free speech cases. We've had a court that has a very broad view of free speech. He's also a free speech absolutist. But sometimes, you know, he famously dissented in that Westboro Baptist case where that so called church was protesting the funeral of a, of a Marine and doing really awful things against the family. And they'd won a defamation suit and the court, 8 to 1, said, Nope, they have free speech rights. And he went back and looked at the facts of the case. That's what he's known for. And he realized they weren't making broad political statements, they were making very personal statements against this man and his family that had nothing to do with politics. And he thought that without broaching the First Amendment issues in play, you could have dealt with the simple damages caused the family. So as we move into the future, I think the conservative movement in particular is having this problem. They're either like, all that matters is our principles, and who cares how that works out? And then on the other hand, you have people who say we just have to win and who cares about the principles? What have they gotten us? And I think with Alito, you see someone who balances these and puts them together in a way that's quite powerful. And I think the Americans in general, but I see the conservative movement in particular needing to understand that that principle and pragmatism are not in conflict with each other and that you and that. And he's really the model on that for a lot of people.

[A]

Do you have a hunch of whether he plans to stay on the Court till he's no longer with us, as happened on occasion. But more recently, folks have retired some in order to go on and do other things. Do you think he'll stay on the Court as long as health allows him to and mortality, or do you think he might retire and move on to do other things?

[C]

It's funny, I had a strong feeling he was not going to retire this term. And I don't technically know. I just had this strong feeling, I don't really know. Going into the future. I will say that Justice Breyer keeps telling his colleagues not to retire because nobody cares about you when you, when you're off the court. So this is possibly something that Americans could do a better job of, is continuing to honor people who are no longer serving in, either at the court or in other capacities so they can feel more Comfortable leaving, but I don't even know. I don't think that's an issue for Alito, who doesn't really care. If people. If he cares about people talking about him, it's that he would prefer they don't talk about him. So. But for some of the justices, that might be an issue.

[A]

Have you sold the movie rights yet?

[C]

No, no. We got a lot.

[A]

Who could play Alita?

[C]

Oh, man, I don't. Do you.

[A]

If Ernest Bordenine were still alive, I think he'd be pretty good. De Niro, I think would be pretty good.

[C]

Oh, De Niro would hate that role, though.

[A]

Yes, he might.

[C]

No, but also, Sam, Alito is a tall man. I don't know. It's like he's over six feet. And I feel like De Niro is. Wouldn't be able to. Because that's one of the things the clerks say. You know, they don't know much about Alito when they get there in other chambers and they leave. Just they call him Big Sam because he's so tall compared to the other justices. You know, he wanted to play baseball and he wanted to be baseball commissioner, and he's got that athletic prowess, so you'd need that as well.

[A]

All right, well, probably I could do that. Really. Lastly, you got another book in you coming soon or too soon to think about that.

[C]

Yeah, I'm in that phase where I'm saying I will never write another book ever again. Although I did a lot of reporting. We actually won an award at the Federalist this year for our reporting on the Russia collusion hoax. We were really standing against everybody when we started reporting that we thought it was a hoax, but we've done great reporting over the last 10 years. A lot of that I was involved in. And so I've seen. Still thought about, you know, covering the FBI or explaining what happened there now that we have a better picture of who all was involved and how many agencies it dealt with. So maybe that'll be in me.

[A]

Okay. Again, the book is called Alito the Justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. It's a great. It's a great work of history. It's a great work of journalism. It's a great biography of the justice. But for a lot of you, I think understanding this co. Equal branch and the dynamics within the court, it's just. Just a. It's brilliantly reported and really a great story. Well told. Molly, congratulations on the book, and thank you for coming on next up.

[C]

Thank you so much, Mark.

[A]

All right. That's it for today's show. We'll be back on Thursday with a brand new episode. Subscribe to the program wherever you get your podcasts or here if you're watching on YouTube. We'd love to have you. Also recommend the program to others so they will know what you always know what's coming next up,

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